526 - How do you make space for a primary relationship while keeping a non-primary one? Listener Q&A

Right now I'm feeling really good about having some sense of

This person is extremely important in my life and I feel like, you know, my decisions about what I do include that person and they are in many ways at the center of my life. Not just I have my work and I have my... personal projects and i have things that i personally am working on in order to heal and in order to become a better human but i also really care deeply about this this partnership so all of that is to say i think that the idea of having some sort of relationship that is more primary.

seems like something that I'd be interested in and that I am currently interested in. But I'm also really excited that one of my primary relationships is with myself and that I am prioritizing myself in a way that I haven't in yet. years. Welcome to the Multi-Amory Podcast. I'm Jace. I'm Emily.

And I'm Dediker. We believe in looking to the future of relationships, not maintaining the status quo of the past. Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous, swinging, casually dating, or if you just do relationships differently, we see you, and we're here for On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we are diving into another listener Q&A episode. Today we are talking about questions like, how quickly should someone jump into another relationship after a breakup?

how to make space in your life for a primary relationship, and how our views on hierarchy have changed over the years. If you would like to submit a question for the show in the future, go to multiamory.com slash questions and fill out the form there.

Also, if you're interested in learning about our fundamental communication tools that we reference on the show and that can help in pretty much any situation, check out our book, Multi-Amory, Essential Tools for Modern Relationships, which covers our most used communication tools

for all types of relationships. You can find links to buy it at multiamory.com book, and you can also get our brand new audiobook version, and you can find links to buy that there, or wherever you get your books or audiobooks. Quick disclaimer before we start, we have spent a lot of time studying healthy relationship communication, but we are not mind readers yet.

And our advice is based solely on the limited information we have from these questions that were provided to us. So please just take it all with a grain of salt. Every situation that we cover here is unique, so if any of this sounds similar to what you're going through, we still encourage you to use your own judgment. Seek professional help if needed. Remember that you are the only true expert on your own life and feelings.

And these questions have been edited for time and clarity. All right, question number one. How fast is too fast? My now ex gained two other partners and broke up with some of their others within a month. Now we're broken up. Are there red flags when it comes to rapid changes like this, or is it simply personal differences? And that's from Whiplashed in the Pacific Northwest.

What's the fastest that y'all have moved in a relationship? Completely subjective, completely subjective, however you want to answer the question. Immediately. What does it immediately mean? Well, I was in the process of breaking up with someone and entered into a new relationship. Hmm. Yeah, that's pretty fast. Pretty immediate slash almost before the last one ended, entering into a new one.

that's not that weird though like I do think no it's not I mean serial overlapping monogamy seems to be like The way that people date. The norm, yeah. The norm for the way people date these days. So, like, that's not that bizarre. Yeah. If I think about fast in a different way in terms of acquiring a large number of partners in quick succession. I feel like

For me, that probably would have been just a time where I started two new relationships probably in the span of a month from each other. That feels pretty quick. It was, yeah. It ended up being too much. I feel like often what I experienced in the past was when I was dating more, I would just end up in too many relationships and feel stretched too thin.

And that just wasn't sustainable for anybody and no one was really happy with it. For myself, I think other people have many more partners than I ever had and do make that work. But at least for me and the way that my life is,

That didn't work out for me when I did that years ago. Well, the question I have surrounding that specifically and sort of what it sounds like this person's... is doing as well which is that they gained two other partners and broke up with some of their others within a month and now we're broken up is Ennery tends to kind of happen around an individual and if you have two people at the same time that you are you know entering into new relationships with

How does that work? Does the NRE get spread around? Is it just really intense for both? I don't know if I've actually done that ever. I'm trying to think back. I think most of my new relationship... have been the the NRE is like maybe less with one or it's kind of more of a slow burn Or I had gotten to know them a little bit beforehand and then we started kind of dating.

versus getting into a new relationship with someone that's really intense and we like see each other all the time and move things pretty quickly that NRE kind of feels more like a fast burn like a really intense emotional journey and I can't imagine doing that with two people at once it just seems really overwhelming and then also the potential of having more established partners at the same time

And having to navigate that as well, that just seems like a lot to me. How about to the two of you? When I'm thinking back to those situations, and this is actually kind of where I wanted to go with this, is that I feel like... In those situations, they were almost like more casual dating. But actually being in a relationship, it was kind of in that weird middle ground between that where it's like, yeah, I like this person. I want to see them more often.

But we're still kind of getting to know each other. It's exciting because they're new, but it's not that like, oh my God, this is so intense. I want to just be obsessed with this person all the time.

It's like it wasn't that feeling. And that's kind of what I'm wondering with this question is, If I were to just kind of be psychoanalyzing someone who I have no first person contact with at all, but this other person, I'm like, maybe it's just that What they're really seeking is this trying to figure out what it is that they want, who that they want to be with, and they're essentially just, if someone were just casually dating,

I don't think we would think much of, oh yeah, they went on a couple dates and didn't see a couple people, no big deal. But when it's in the context of they got new partners and got rid of old partners, I wonder sometimes if maybe, especially when we're new in non-monogamy, we might rush to be like oh well then everyone's a partner then right like oh I'm gonna all these are relationships now instead of having to put them in the category of casual dating

So sometimes I think it could just be a labeling thing. So I wouldn't say that that behavior in itself is anything wrong or a warning sign or red flag or something like that. Yeah, I think this is a prompt for clarification, right? Because, yeah, with the question asker saying my ex gained two other partners, it's hard to know, is that what you called it? Is that what the ex called it? Like you were saying, Jace?

i think this is a great conversation to have at the beginning of a relationship in general so first of all i think it's a good question to ask yourself like how fast feels too fast for me In my relationships, like one of the behaviors that I see that freak me out as far as like, whoa, this feels like this is too fast of an escalation. Or I feel like this person is putting pressure on me to escalate really fast.

And this is a great question to ask someone you're potentially dating as well. Like what feels like, what do you like? What do you know about yourself regarding your pace? in dating you know have you ever felt like you've moved too fast with somebody have you ever felt like you moved too slow with somebody like i think this is just a really right conversation to have as you're getting to know somebody

Yeah, I like phrasing the question as what have you done? Like, what have you noticed about yourself rather than what do you want to do? Because I feel like we're often not very good at predicting.

what we want to do or maybe we might feel some shame about that especially because we've all got this kind of monogamous hangover going on like kind of this baggage that comes with it i know that has been a struggle i think for all of us we've talked about before and so talking about it more in terms of what have you noticed from you in the past makes it so it's more a conversation about

And that, I think, can give you some insights into each other and where you're coming from rather than setting yourself up for, oh, but you said you don't like to date fast, but then you started dating this person, and now I don't know what to think. I also think what you were touching on a little bit before, both of you, about the conversation over what constitutes a partner and what doesn't, I think that's a really interesting question to ask as well.

and sort of seeing like is there a tipping point at which somebody becomes a partner versus we're just sort of Trying things on like hanging out a little bit, like seeing where things are going to go, seeing if the connection is going to develop into something more or not.

Because I do think that the addition of somebody that is deemed a partner for an established partner can feel a little bit more... intense or maybe scary or maybe oh is this a red flag if it's happening two people at once and then other people are getting broken up with at the same time I can understand how maybe that idea is a little bit scarier or a little bit more Is this a red flag, you know, that the question asker is saying here versus this person?

has had some new connections and they're trying things out and they're kind of seeing where it's going to go. So I do think just some of the nuance there in terms of terminology and just what does partnership mean to you? I think that that is a really good talking point in question for, as you said, the beginning of a relationship.

Okay, well, but I have an am I the asshole question for the two of you. Because as I've gotten older, I think that if I can't keep track of a partner's dating life, like if If I have a head spinny feeling because this person is dating so heavily, getting into relationships, dissolving relationships, like and that's an extended process that keeps happening i'm just like turned off and i'm just kind of like

if someone wants to date that way like i don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that provided they're still being like respectful and communicative with the people that they're dating it's just something that to me i'm kind of like i don't know man i don't know if i can handle that sort of head

spinny feeling for a protracted period of time I do think that the potential for feeling a lot of unrest as a person who is watching your partner do this Especially if they are also choosing to end relationships at a speed that is similar to the relationships that they are having that are new. I would be worried, like, am I on precarious footing here? And is there the potential that I'm going to just get tossed to the wayside as quickly as, you know, they are grabbing new partners as well?

That would feel a little scary to me and maybe unnerving. Yeah, I think you're starting to hit on the core of the question here. Because the question says how fast is too fast, but it feels like what they're really saying is, you know, I had this partner.

who gained these two new partners, broke up with a few partners, and then eventually broke up with me. Or we're broken up now. I guess they didn't clarify who broke up with whom. But kind of this, like, are there red flags? And I think that it sounds like where we're all landing is sort of this, well...

There's nothing inherently wrong with that. I mean, we don't know how they're doing it. We don't know how they're treating everyone. But just on its surface, there isn't necessarily anything weird or bad about it. But it's like... That's not really the question.

I think that the question asker, what I would say is, how does that feel for you? Kind of like Dedeker mentioned. It's like, for me, if I feel like I can't keep track of it, I'm sort of like, maybe i'll step back from this like i don't i'm just that's not the space i want to be in and that's fine right like we always try to emphasize that it's okay to break up or it's okay to de-escalate

Because, yeah, people have to be compatible with each other. It's not just a question of are they doing it right. And so I think that's maybe an interesting experience for you of did that person starting to date more people quickly, like, did that feel weird to you? And that you're kind of like, I don't really want to be in a relationship that feels like that. Maybe that's something valuable for you to learn. And also that might change over time.

So in terms of is it a red flag? Maybe for you it is right now.

This is a question that I've actually wanted to ask you, Jace, recently because I do think that there was a point in your life when you were a little bit younger when we were starting out as non-monogamous partners and then when you and Dedeker were a little bit more new in terms of your partnership.

that i felt like you dated quite a lot and as you said yeah that was my like earliest impression of jace exactly not like the first impression but like an early impression where i was like wow this had a little bit of a head spinny feeling yeah and and you know But that was very much a product of, I think, being newly non-monogamous to a degree, and then also just being this, like, hot guy, like,

Going out and, you know. Young and hot in Los Angeles. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, man. 100%. And so I do just wonder, you know, we don't know the ages of these people at all. But part of it may just be simply that they are enjoying their youth and their beauty and their fun just being, you know, young, non-monogamous people in the scene. want to like take advantage of that and kind of see what happens So I don't know. I know for myself and I know for all three of us,

we have changed so drastically in terms of the emotional bandwidth that we have to have partnerships enter our life at all, regardless of how often we see that person. I feel like just the... barrier to entry to even have a person enter our life at this point. is really high. There's like four knocks up in here. Exactly. It takes like years or it just takes a really like long courtship or whatever. And so it's just very different.

at this point in our lives versus where you were, Jace, a decade ago.

Yeah, and I will say I don't actually think that's tied to age per se, because I feel like I've also seen lots of people who, especially if they come to non-monogamy later in life, or find that suddenly their kind of space and bandwidth freeze up quite a bit they can also date quite a lot maybe and so i think that's something else to take into account of time one is it's all new it's all new it's it's exciting to explore it's like wow i i can do this this is great and then also at the time i was

I would say underemployed is the term we use, right? Where I had a lot of time. I didn't have a lot of money, but I had a lot of time. And so that also freed me up and my energy to pursue these relationships. And I think in some ways too, that pursuing those relationships was for me a way of, I guess like having something to be interested in when I felt like job wise, it's like, I don't have a lot going on right now. And so. for better or worse

that was going on with that. And I think it ebbed and flowed over time. But yeah, I did date quite a bit. And I did also just really enjoy the process of dating. I think something else to take into account here is, like we mentioned, they're talking about this person getting new partners. I'm like, does that mean they're just dating people? Because I do feel like we approach that differently in terms of the amount of ourself that we put into a relationship if it's like,

This is a partnership I'm forming. Or it's like, yeah, we've gone on a few dates and we're seeing what's here. And I feel like that's more what I was doing a lot of, even though some of them did end up being relationships for some amount of time. Yeah. I think another good question to ask when you're at the beginning of dating somebody or forming a relationship with somebody, especially if it's non-monogamous, is just open-ended. What is dating like for you?

how do you know when you are in like seeking mode like how do you know when you're in like partner acquisition mode to make it sound really dry and clinical and again not for the purpose of I don't know, like trying to pathologize the other person or trying to get them to give the right answer. Truly open-ended.

to get a sense of just like what is doing this like for them? What motivates them? What excites them? What turns them off in this process? Because I think that can also tell you a lot as well. I hope this has been helpful and has given some things to think about. I know that the question was very short and to the point, and we gave an answer that was very much not any of that. And that's our guarantee to you. That will always be the multi-emory treatment, no matter how short your question is.

Yeah, we're going to try to look at a lot of different angles and not come down with a solid answer. But yeah, I actually thought this was a cool discussion and something we haven't really talked about a ton about that kind of. more intense dating time in my life or in our lives because it's been quite a while now. So thank you for writing in and asking that question.

Before we go on to our next one we're going to take a quick break to talk about some sponsors of this show. If you're able to, please take a moment, listen to them, check any out that seem interesting to you, and use our promo codes or links that are in our show description. That does really help our show.

And if you want to help us more directly, consider going to multiamory.com slash join and becoming one of our subscribers there. We have a sliding scale to make it accessible for everybody, and you get to be part of our amazing community as well. This episode is brought to you by Pretty Litter My mom is visiting this week in my tiny New York City apartment, and I am so glad that I have pretty litter to make sure that the house is smelling clean and beautiful. Nobody can tell that Henry is here.

I mean, he's kind of hard to miss. He makes himself known. That is true. He certainly does make himself known. But nobody can tell that he has been peeing and pooping inside the house because of Pretty Litter. Because you don't get the litter box stink. because of its ultra-absorbent non-clumping formula that traps odor and moisture. pretty litter is lightweight it is low dust and one six pound bag will work for up to a month

It also can give you peace of mind. The litter itself will change color to indicate early signs of potential illnesses in your cat and it changes different colors depending on what it is. So it turns a different color if there's a urinary tract infection or a different color if there's

kidney issues and more. Pretty litter will ship right to your door for free. You won't have huge kitty litter bags taking up space in your closet or in your hallway. You don't have to go out in the cold and lug those huge tubs from the store to your car and into your house. Pretty Litter helps keep my house smelling fresh and clean. Try it and you'll love it. Go to prettylitter.com slash multiamory to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy.

That's PrettyLitter.com slash Multiamory to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy. PrettyLitter.com slash Multiamory. Terms and conditions apply. See site for details.

for a long time now we've been fans of adamandeve.com for getting sex toys or lingerie or accessories things like that it's just a fantastic resource with a huge selection And now, not only do we have a fantastic offer, but we also have a promo code that will work on adammail.com and evestoys.com, which are their sites specifically for LGBTQ audiences. And our code is fantastic. It's 50% off of almost any item in the store and free discrete shipping when you use our code multi.

Yes, we love AdamandEve.com and have for years. They are our oldest and longest sponsor and they just... Keep on giving great gifts to us and to our listeners. You can bring more pleasure and satisfaction into your bedroom by going to adamandeve.com, adammail.com, or evestoys.com and select any one item. It can be, you know, an adventurous new toy. Or anything you desire. Something fun, something sexy, whatever sounds good.

so just enter offer code multi at checkout and you'll get 50 off almost any item plus free shipping That's multi, M-U-L-T-I, at adamandeve.com, adammale.com, or evestoys.com. This is an exclusive offer that is specific to this podcast, and it's better than any offer that is currently available on their site. So again, use code MULTI to get you not just the 50% discount, but also the 100% free shipping. Code MULTI.

All right, and now it is time for question two. How has your perspective on relationship hierarchy evolved and how do you navigate it in your own relationships? I'd love to hear your updates, and if you feel comfortable sharing it, personal take on hierarchy. I feel like I've walked a path similar to yours when it comes to relationship hierarchy. Jason Dedeker, I'm curious about how you define your partnership now. Have you adopted terms like primary partners or anchor partners?

I'd be interested to know what language you use when discussing your relationship with potential new partners. Emily, now that you're dating again, what's your vision of what kind of a relationship structure you're looking for when it comes to hierarchies? How do you communicate it to potential partners? In my past, I was in a long term relationship that transitioned from monogamy to non-monogamy.

We had built a strong foundation, and despite our intentions to avoid prescriptive hierarchy, and even though our descriptive hierarchy became less obvious when we shifted to long distance, they remained my primary consideration in life decisions. That relationship has since ended. Now I'm building a new partnership. We've been together for a year while we both date other people.

Currently, neither of us has additionally committed partners. Although we initially identified as leaning towards solo polyamory, maintaining separate living spaces and finances, we're recognizing a somewhat hierarchical nature in our evolving relationship. I'm finding that the stability of a partnership where we significantly factor each other into our plans and decisions while still maintaining separate households aligns better with my needs and wants.

What aspects do you think are crucial to consider in my situation? I'm particularly interested in how your own experiences might offer insight here. How do you view the use of terms such as anchor partners or primary partners or any other language you might prefer when describing relationships that are central to one's life but not necessarily full-blown hierarchical? Sincerely, Hierarchy Hesitant in the heart of Europe. We're in the heart of Europe. We've really been given...

A list of interview questions. Yes. But I think a lot of this is really interesting and it has really evolved over time. And I appreciate that they asked me what it is that i do with potential partnerships now and what it is that i want because that has been really going around in my head a lot lately just what do you got just lay it out we got the whole therapy session yeah this person asked

for it they're gonna get it all right fine here we go so i left my very long-term relationship and jumped right into a new relationship immediately as i had said in the previous question And because of that I found myself going right back into a lot of the same things that I had done in that previous relationship like spending all my time with this person. going and spending evenings cooking dinner like they basically were just a stand-in for my last relationship in a lot of ways

And I also found that that person therefore started thinking that, okay, we're going to move in together. We're going to do all of these relationship escalatory things that... just sort of happen when you start having a really intense relationship with someone. And that scared the shit out of me and made me realize, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. I just am kind of putting myself in a situation again that I didn't really think about and that I actually don't really want.

and you know i moved to new york i live alone i love it I love my apartment. I love living exactly the way that I want to and not having anyone tell me what I need to do or having to negotiate anything about the way in which I live with anyone else. And the relationship that I'm in now, which I started when I was still in a relationship with that partner, and I'm no longer in a relationship with him now, but we live separately. We're very autonomous.

He does his own thing. I do my own thing. He's seeing additional people. I have not found new partnerships yet, but I'm hoping maybe I will eventually. But I found that while I really appreciate and enjoy being separate in a lot of ways from him, there is still some primacy there.

in my thinking about him in my life which is really interesting and I think I'm okay with that there was a point at which and you know the came up in our solo polyamory episode where I was like maybe I'm gonna be solo polyamorous and I'm just gonna worry about myself and think about myself and while I think that is really helpful and good for me at this particular time in my life

I also think that I would love to have a partnership where it takes precedent and it in some way is a relationship where I'm building something with somebody.

and have additional possibility for partnerships that happen around that. Now, if another partnership came into my life and became as important to me in various ways as the established partnership, maybe my mind would change or things would change a little bit now that hasn't happened yet and so I'm not sure exactly what will occur but right now I'm feeling really good about having some sense of This person is extremely important in my life and I...

feel like you know my decisions about what I do include that person and they are in many ways at the center of my life not just I have my work and I have my personal projects and I have things that I personally am working on in order to heal and in order to become a better human. But I also really care deeply about this partnership. So all of that is to say, I think that the idea of having some sort of relationship that is more primary...

Seems like something that I'd be interested in and that I am currently interested in. But I'm also really excited that one of my primary relationships is with myself and that I am prioritizing myself in a way that I haven't. in years.

I think it's good to think about in those terms, too, where this might not be a static trait of a person yeah but some of it can change over time based on based on your situation and based on what you need in your life I think that when I look back on the 11 and a half years that Dedeker and I have been dating, it's ebbed and flowed, I think, in terms of how primary it felt. I don't know that we've ever...

had a lot of need to use that label. Like I tend more often to default to describing it more. I do the same. I have to sit down and give them like a two hour talk. Right. this is my relationship with jace and also let me just lay out for you my entire relationship history while we're at it and my whole history of non-monogamy and yeah it tends to get more nitty-gritty

Right. So I find that for myself, I tend to not like using primary partner or anchor partner or nesting partner, even if those things In a certain circumstance, I might use that term. If it's like, this conversation doesn't need to go deep, I just need to quickly communicate a rough idea of what's going on, maybe I would use that kind of terminology.

But more often, if it's someone where that nuance is going to matter to them, that also deserves that bigger conversation, right? That more involved thing of like, hey, I have this relationship. i live with this person we also have a lot of history together

And then also that Emily is this really important person in my life and that I have this podcast that takes up a lot of my extra time outside of work. So I've also, there's not just this relationship taking up my time, but also a lot of other things that are. intertwined with that relationship and just trying to be really clear about what kind of availability I have in my life and also what sort of things I will prioritize in my life.

These things are there as priorities because I tend to take my commitments to things pretty seriously. So whether that's work or a podcast or a relationship, I'll tend to take that seriously. And so I think sometimes it's It involves several conversations. It involves a lot of conversations to get to that point. And I think you could look at it in some ways and say, well, because I... live with Dediker. I'm going to think about how my decisions affect her more than I would if we didn't.

And it's that weird thing of like, I don't feel like that's because I've decided she's primary and that I want to prioritize her needs when making my other decisions but it's just practically in real life that makes sense like i'd kind of be a jerk not to because i live with her and so it's like our space is shared the decisions I make with that. We also share a car, right? We only have one car between the two of us, so that also has to factor in.

And so in some ways, like even with friends, they'll be like, oh, let me check and make sure Dedeker doesn't need the car, or maybe we can meet somewhere else closer to me so I can get over there, you can pick me up, like just logistically realizing those things are present. I guess in the same way I would think about that with a job or with multi-amory.

Yeah, I didn't even bring up the fact that, yeah, Multiamory, like, factors into that, but because in my relationship that was so long, it was such a point of contention between the two of us. Yeah, I think my relationship with the two of you is so strong, and there are some insecure people out there who would see that as not okay. I would encourage those who are looking at hierarchy in general to also factor in relationships like this.

that are incredibly meaningful that somebody has to be okay with in order to be in a relationship with you. And I know that whomever I have an anchor podcast, I have an anchor podcast. So yes, I use that. That is a primary, yes, that is a primary relationship in my life. So deal with it.

Okay, so can I lay some stits and stops? on you purely just from my brain. Yeah. Wait, are these real stits and stats or you just made them up from your brain? No, they're real. Okay, okay. I'm not making up. Because Eli Schreff posted this on their blog not too long ago, but apparently like pretty current research

does show that non-monogamous people regardless of whether or not they identify as hierarchical or non-hierarchical the majority of them do choose to share their limited resources like time, money, a car with like one person more so than other people. So there's this kind of thing where I think that as we've seen over the past decade in the non-monogamy subculture, there's this aspiration of non-hierarchy is the correct way to do things.

And I do think it is important to aspire to that, honestly. I do think it is important for us to examine those unquestioned power structures and decision-making structures. I think we all have to go through that. And there's a certain reality of how our culture is set up.

and how just the reality of life is set up for dealing with these limited resources. Now the reason why I go into my whole relationship history with people is that I think like some people, especially coming from monogamy, first entry into non-monogamy was very clearly hierarchical.

you know very clearly like yeah this is the primary partner and everyone else is secondary or this is the primary partner everyone else is just a hookup and then started questioning that and then swinging much harder into like no no no non-hierarchy is definitely the way to go that's the thing that i have to live up to

And then for several years, I'll be honest, especially looking through this lens of how I shared my limited resources like time and money, I felt like I really was trying to accomplish that with two partners. Right. So it's like even with my partner who lived abroad, I was like trying really hard. to make sure that I'm spending at least an equal or equitable amount of time

with both my partners and same thing with money as well. I felt like you did a good job of that. Thank you. I think I did a good job too. I was always pretty impressed by your commitment to that dediker and you you have been kind of my model that like Two is the perfect number. Interesting. But then I don't know if it's possible to do, for at least me, for the kind of life that I lead. I'm not sure if more than two partnerships.

yeah i think especially when you're looking at sharing things like time and money right so like for instance for many many years like when i would come back to los angeles and would be like living with jace for a few months at the time it's like i would try my best to still pay rent or contribute to rent

And then same thing with my partner. When I go back to Singapore, Australia, I would still try to pay rent when I was there. Right. So it's like I was trying to create as much of a non-hierarchical structure as I possibly could. And I think that that worked out. And then when my partner abroad ended the relationship,

I really had a big crisis of faith. Yes, a crisis of faith. What I really hated was that like, oh my god, now I'm in this structure where I essentially am default monogamous with Jace. Right. And like somebody else has created, has like taken away.

this non-hierarchical structure from me right like i was performing as such a good non-hierarchical polyamorous person and now because this relationship ended all of a sudden i look like every monogamous normie out there and i hate that oh my god now the new chapter as I've been starting to newly date and form relationships the thing that really threw me for a loop and I shared this with my newest partner that I've been dating was I realized

i have not been in a situation where i've been with one partner an extremely long amount of time and now i'm starting a brand new relationship because i feel like for a long time that two partner situation i had like those relationships weren't that much It maybe only started Two or three years apart. Exactly. 11 years apart. Exactly. 11 is a long time. Now I'm in a situation where a lot of people are opening up for money.

25 years of monogamy or whatever are in this situation where wow there's this relationship where I've built my whole life around this person and we own property together and maybe we have kids together and pets together and

all this history and now i'm starting from zero with somebody and that's a situation where it's like yeah there's instantly a built-in hierarchy there and i realized for me oh this is new i haven't approached dating like this before and so like that's also what i'm figuring out Because again, like with anyone new that I've been dating, I've also been giving them the long, hard TED talk around This is really how much time the podcast actually takes in my life.

And there's this complicated dynamic where the partner that I live with is also one of my business partners. And so that's like a lot of time that I end up spending with this person, not just in a personal capacity, but also in a professional capacity. and so so for me now it's like trying to balance the fact like yeah there is this built-in hierarchy essentially but also trying to be very honest about what my relationship ethics still is in the face of that.

right you know trying to verbalize like these are the ways that i see couple privilege playing potentially playing out and the things that i want to do to counteract that to the best of my ability like you know this newer partner is always left out of the decision making or they're always an afterthought or they always get the crumbs of my time or energy or things like that or they're never going to be the plus one or they're never going to you know like

The ways that I try to counteract the shape of my life right now so that at least anyone who is dating me still feels like respected and cared for and important. so that's why all of this like i don't feel like i can sum up by just saying on my dating app i'm non-hierarchical or i'm i am hierarchical like I'm sorry, you gotta get the TED talk. You have to listen to the multi-hour, multi-phase version of this.

Yeah, that adds a whole other nuance to it when you are work partners as well, which is currently what I am with my partner. Oh yeah, you got that too. Yeah, we work at a restaurant together. And I said this to him yesterday. I was like, you know, you're not only my partner in life, but you're my partner in work. And that's kind of what you have.

to Dedeker in a different way and like I have that with the two of you unfortunately sometimes i feel like the three of us have to really really make intentional time in order to see each other outside of the confines of this podcast and i wish that we had more time together to not just be working but because this podcast takes up so much time And we have lives, too. It's just, it's tough.

To be fair though, sometimes... some of the time that's taken up is that like if we have not had enough time to hang out with each other the three of us then we get Then we get on what's supposed to be a very important meeting and then, yeah, we fuck around for about an hour talking about our lives.

and cracking jokes. And so, you know, it finds a way. Life finds a way is all I'm saying. Life finds a way. Yeah, I did want to throw in that I think that, you know, talking about us doing the podcast together and how much that factors in is maybe very specific to our situation.

But I think you could extrapolate that out into other situations too. Because a situation I ran into a lot was I'd be dating someone and there might be some jealousy or envy that would come up with them feeling like I'm spending so much more time with Dedeker than I am with them. And often it would be because we're doing podcast stuff. We're planning things, we're doing calls, we're recording episodes.

And actively arguing with each other about business stuff. Right. And my ex who I lived with was extremely jealous of our dynamic just because I do spend so much time with you two.

even if it's virtual at this point but it was that thing of like say I'd spend all day doing multi-amory stuff and then someone's like oh you know I want to see you and I'm like oh I have plans with that occur tomorrow or tonight or something and they're kind of like you just spend all day with her and it's like well but i wasn't spending time with her in a partner fun way i mean sure we have fun on multi-amory but like it's still work right

And I think that for people who are parents or who even just live together, there's a lot of stuff where you're spending time with the person you live with or spending time with the person that you raise kids with. That's not you having fun hanging out with each other.

In fact, often you can end up where you have basically no time doing that with each other. So I think that's also a factor to take in if you are living together or have some other kind of mutual commitment of realizing that it's not just about. that time, but also that we need our quality time together as well. And I think that can be hard to communicate or hard for us to even realize that that's going on. That I think also factors into this thing of, is that about primariness?

Sure, you could call it that. but it's also just sort of a practical, I'm trying to maintain these relationships as much as I can. So again, why you need the two-hour talk and not just...

putting the anchor partner or whatever label on it yeah so let me draw this to our talk to a close about so this person at the end asks what aspects do you think are crucial to consider in my situation and the phrase that comes to mind for me is authentic intentionality so what I mean by and I'll break it down in reverse

intentionality around clearly you're someone who thinks about this and it sounds like you and your partner are willing to think about these things and talk about these things. You're not just an autopilot like a lot of relationships are, right? So you're aware of the fact that we are spending more time together.

And we're building something together, and this is starting to create a little bit of a hierarchy. So I think that, yeah, keep those conversations open and intentional about what it is that you want to build. The question asker mentions the specifics of, you know, wanting the stability of a partnership where we factor into each other's plans and decisions while still maintaining separate households. Being able to align each other with that intention is great.

And then the authentic part of it is where I'm like, don't feel like I need to artificially hold myself away from this person that I care about in order to create this sense of... i'm being a good polyamorous person who's not being hierarchical yeah like i think if that's your motivation then like you know like just don't just don't like if it's authentic that like you want to spend time with this person and you want to like

I don't know, build your households next to each other because it seems like that's cool. I'm like, yeah, go for it. That's what's authentic to you. But you're also maintaining the intentionality so that you know we're not just on autopilot and assuming that we know the direction this is going. Love that.

All right, we're going to take a quick break before we move on to question three, but thank you to Hierarchy Hesitant in the heart of Europe for your question. That was great. That gave us a lot to really think about and explore with each other. I'm glad we got to do that.

So we're going to take a quick break to talk about some of our sponsors on this show. Please use the links and the promo codes that are in our show description as well. Those do help support our show and help our sponsors know that it's worthwhile for them to give us money to keep doing this show. And of course, if you want to support us directly, get access to ad-free episodes, as well as our amazing community on Discord, you can go to multiemory.com.

slash join and you can join there on a sliding scale and get all of the benefits including things like our monthly video processing groups which are a really amazing thing to be part of and we would love to see you there

This next segment is sponsored by our latest sponsor, the upcoming Seattle Erotic Art Festival. Now, of course, at Multiamory, if we are sponsored by an erotic art festival, we have to get nerdy about absolutely everything, including erotic art. So... We were wondering just how far back does erotic art go? Were ancient humans also making sexy art? It turns out they definitely were the Venus of Willendorf.

that really amazing statue of the woman sort of looking down at herself. It dates back to around 25,000 BCE, and it's one of the oldest examples of art with sexual characteristics. featuring exaggerated breasts and genitalia, possibly representing fertility or sexuality. There was also, I didn't know about this one, but the ancient Egyptians, there's a papyrus from around 1150 BCE that's known as the Turin erotic papyrus. It contains explicit sexual imagery.

However, I highly recommend people Google it. It's amazing. I absolutely love that. It's almost a little bit funny because it depicts people getting very acro yoga. with their sex but in this like very traditional like hieroglyphic looking Egyptian style that's really fun.

Oh, I want to see that for sure. That's awesome. And then, of course, the famous Pompeii, they have preserved frescoes and artifacts that reveal that Romans displayed explicit sexual art in homes, bathhouses, and even bakeries. Just a little erotic art with your croissant in the morning. With your French loaf. With your baguette, if you know what I mean. Well, they're Roman, so you're Roman baguette or something. Showing how ancient cultures sometimes integrated sexuality into public spaces.

and of course there's so many examples there's the famous kama sutra there's an amazing compendery of japanese erotic woodblock prints from the 1600s but most importantly i think there's this long history of erotic art Not just being there for arousal, but also serving religious, spiritual, sometimes even civic purposes. And I guess bakery purposes too. Indeed. Very important bakery purposes.

And our sponsor this week, the Seattle Erotic Art Festival, they're carrying this long lineage of blending together sexuality, sensuality and creative expression. Seif recognizes that erotic art isn't just about sex, it's about expression, freedom, and the celebration of human connection in all its forms. And they're taking over the Seattle Center Exhibition Hall from May 2nd through the 4th, so it's coming up.

This isn't your typical art event, it's a celebration of provocative art, jaw dropping performances, interactive installations, and so much more. so everything that you see at the festival is for sale they're all about supporting artists so whether you are a seasoned art collector or if you just want to take home something small and special there's a chance for everybody to bring a piece of the festival home

There's also a festival store that is filled with smaller works, with prints, with books, with handcrafted items so that regardless of your budget, you don't have to have a big fancy art collector budget. You can still support artists and creators. And at C, if there's truly something for everyone. The goal is to ensure everyone sees themselves reflected in the art, no matter your gender, orientation, body, or background. Sifa is all about creating a safe, inclusive space to revel in art.

sexuality, and freedom of expression. So if you're interested, Seattle Erotic Art Festival is offering our listeners 10% off of select festival tickets when you enter the code multi at seaf.art slash ticket. So that's seaf.art. S-E-A-F dot A-R-T slash tickets and use code multi to get 10% off your festival tickets. Seaf dot art slash tickets code multi. The link is in the episode's description.

Here's our last question for today. How do you make space for a primary relationship while still keeping your non-primary relationship? Hello, I'm a queer woman living in Honolulu in a long-term relationship with a married woman.

I eventually want to be in a primary relationship with someone, but I'm having a hard time because I'm very in love with my partner and feel like I won't find anyone like her. We're both in the music industry and she's also autistic, so there's a level of connection that I don't anticipate finding with anyone else.

I'm out of the NRE stage and deep in the love stage. I'm having a hard time dating partially because of my own insecurity and partially because everyone else either seems to be A monogamous or B already in a highly coupled relationship. how do i sustain a secure relationship with her and find someone else is this possible that is from horny and hopeful in honolulu

That's what I aspire to be every single day. Horny and hopeful in Honolulu. I feel like it's hard in this day and age to be both horny and hopeful. Indeed. That's true. And in Honolulu. And in Honolulu, yeah. Yeah, I have some questions. I find myself wondering, there's a dynamic that I see sometimes where if someone is dating someone who is very clearly married, coupled up in a clearly in a primary relationship and they're not offering that same primary level relationship to their new partner

there can be this either implicit or sometimes explicitly stated pressure you need to go find your own primary partner like that's how this is gonna work is you need to go out there like i'm happy to stay in a relationship with you but you need to go out and find your own primary now Question asker didn't say anything about that. I don't know if that's the dynamic, but I feel like that could be something underlying this. So there's a little bit of this implication of like,

Well, because I'm already married, I can't offer you something that feels primary-ish, and so you've got to go find that. And it sounds like the question asker is like, I don't know if I want to go find that. I'm really enjoying what we have. Could also just be an internal pressure of feeling like, well, I should have that kind of thing too, because maybe I don't have the stability from this relationship that I would like, or maybe it doesn't.

take up as much of my life as I would like it to. So yeah, it could come from any place, really.

I have a friend who recently entered into a triad type relationship with two women who are dating and they live together and they are planning on getting married within the next year. And he realizes like, He thinks, maybe not realizes, but he keeps saying to me that this is going to end in disaster or it's not going to work out because the two of them are going to get married and I'm just going to be not as important to them anymore.

And I would really like to find what they have. I would like to find somebody to spend my life with, even though we're having a great time. There's a lot of feelings. You know, I love being around them. And I kept saying to him like, What do you actually think is going to happen here? What is going to occur when they do get married? Why does that have to necessarily change the dynamic in such a way that it's going to blow up this relationship?

And I guess with this, I mean, I understand the want of I want to find somebody too that I can live with, spend my life with, call maybe a primary partner.

because right now I don't have that with this person that I love and I want to find that version something like that for myself but I don't think that it needs to be this big worry that it's just going to end super poorly or it's not going to be really important in your life and the way that maybe it currently is i know that this person is not necessarily saying that but it is fascinating to to see like i i gotta find

a version of this that my partner already has because I don't have it and that's the only thing that's going to make me happy.

Yeah, so to try to bring it back to the question itself, though, about how do I make room for that? How do I open myself up to that? I think something that is interesting about that situation is A lot of times when people think about a primary partner and it sounds like this woman that you've been in a relationship with falls into this category where

The primary relationship is also the older relationship. It's the longer relationship. And so there can be a sense of primariness, kind of like we talked about before, just by nature of we know each other so well and we have all this history. And so in this situation it is tricky because if that's kind of the archetype of a primary partner that's not something you can find at first. It's something that has to be built over time.

And so, One way to think about this is you're in an interesting and I think cool situation where you could end up in a situation where you have a more primary, really entangled, spending a lot of your time with someone relationship, but have this other... I guess you'd call them a secondary partner, but that you actually have a lot longer history with. And that is somewhat unique. I think that just tends to not be how it shows up as often, right? When we use those primary and secondary labels.

kind of realizing that, that it's not going to look like the normal archetype of it because time doesn't work backwards like that. But then also, I would say realizing that those sorts of partnerships have to be built over time. It sounds like maybe at the heart of this question is how do I make time for dating and getting into new relationships and letting myself be willing to invest in those when I'm still maintaining this relationship.

But then the question is more that it's like I've got my own insecurity and then also everyone else seems to be either monogamous or already in a highly coupled relationship. So they're kind of two separate things, right? On the one hand, there's the, I would say, just opening yourself up to going on more dates to kind of explore that side of yourself to see if someone feels like there's something there to connect with.

But there's also that challenge of how do I meet people who are not monogamous or not already in highly coupled relationships? And that one, I think, It comes down to trying to expose yourself to more people, if possible. That could be through dating apps. It could be through finding more in-person communities.

I know all these things are easier said than done, but I think it really does just come down to you're not going to start dating if you're not meeting people. And if you're only meeting monogamous people, How can I find different ways to meet people? Like where can I find communities that either overlap more with non-monogamy?

or being willing to date people that are open to non-monogamy even though they haven't done it yet. It really all depends on what access you have to community and what kind of people are around.

I just want to make sure that if this person does take a step to, you know, find another partner, that it's because it's what they want as opposed to feeling like I'm not getting what I need in this relationship that I really love and so I need to overcompensate by finding somebody else to fill those gaps or I need to find somebody else because I feel like I should. Again, maybe easier said than done to do that analysis, but I think it's important to ask that question.

Yeah, I do wonder if they had... more secondary type relationships or just additional people in their life that they have fun with that they maybe hook up with that they enjoy spending their time with but that doesn't necessarily take that primary structure if they had that in addition to this relationship that they already have that's established.

I wonder if that would also like fill a certain type of role or give them what it is that they're seeking that maybe they're not necessarily finding here.

You know, I've found that with people I know who are monogamous and who feel like that, or maybe I'm getting to a certain point in my life where I really want to find someone to get married and have kids with, That they can be in a similar situation of feeling like there's all this pressure to find it and it's so hard to find someone else who wants that thing right now who is also available in my area and compatible with me and all of those things.

And so I think what Emily's getting at brings up a good point too of Is this just about wanting more fulfillment, more connection in my life? Maybe opening yourself up to having other relationships that might not be starting out on this clear path toward primary-ness? One, you might find actually, this is quite fulfilling and this does actually fit more with what I want, or some of those relationships could end up

becoming more primary over time. So just to kind of not pre-limit your options too much to just situations that seem so clearly like they're heading in this one direction. Well, they're saying horny and hopeful. That makes me think that... Follow your desire. Exactly. That they, you know, want additional people to have sex with and have fun with. Maybe that will lead to something more, but maybe also... You just want to have fun with some more sexual partners and that's totally fine.

Yeah, I guess just being open to the different possibilities so that then you can see where those go over time might be the way I would suggest approaching it. And I know it's frustrating, though, if you're like, but I really want that. I guess it's just the fact of it is that That primary type relationship is not something you can just find a whole cloth right there as it is. It has to be built over time, and that's always going to take time.

And I bet if you talk to a lot of people in primary relationships, you'll see a whole variety of different ways that they first started that relationship too. And so kind of realizing that, actually, that'd be a fun project. You know, talk to all of the non-monogamous people you know who have primary relationships or even monogamous people and just get that sense of,

Where did that relationship start? What did you think of it at the start? How did it get to where it is now? Not really to help with your question, but just because that'd be fun. Well, horny and hopeful in Honolulu, we hope that answered your question a bit. Good luck out there. We hope that you find additional partners or just additional experiences that fulfill you, whatever that may look like.

So that was our final question of the week. And we have one more for all of you out there that is going to be on our Instagram stories this week. And that is, how have your views on hierarchy changed over the years?

because probably they have there was definitely that point in time where hierarchy was a big no-no but now i feel like it's kind of it's resurging it's like becoming hot again to a degree a little bit i don't hear people's takes on that maybe not maybe i'm so nuanced maybe more nuanced yeah it's not totally the worst thing in the world anymore

And the best place to share your thoughts with other listeners is in the episode discussion channel in our Discord server, or you can post in our private Facebook group. You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to multiemory.com slash join. We'll see you next time. Josh and Anand from the Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is available on this episode's page on multiemory.com.