I'm glad you talked about meeting your metamor because that's also a thing. It's like I want to be flexible with all different, you know, desires and types of polyamory. But for me, I've had that experience several times also. Like you... i would describe it as like the person is the shape of a villain kind of like a shadow that is undefined and then
I project all of my worst insecurities onto them. And once you meet them, even if you don't, you know, hit it off and become best friends, they do become a full human, like you said. And often my experience was, oh, they're all so nervous to meet me or... I can see their sort of like vulnerabilities and then you can have at least some compassion for them too. It doesn't necessarily remove all of those feelings right away, but it just really helps to work on them.
Welcome to the Multi-Amory Podcast. I'm Jace. I'm Emily. And I'm Dediker. We believe in looking to the future of relationships, not maintaining the status quo of the past. Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous swinging casually dating or if you just do relationships differently we see you and we're here for you On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're talking all about metamor relationships with polyamorous storyteller and author Alex Alberto.
Alex is a queer author, publisher, and filmmaker. Last year, Alex published their memoir Entwined Essays on Polyamory and Creating Home through Quilted Press, a collective of independent authors that they co-founded. This year, Alex is producing a short film called Coming Out Polyamorous for Thanksgiving, great title, which is based on an essay from Entwined. Alex also leads writer's retreats and courses at Scrappy Literary.
And some of their classes focus on helping writers of all levels write about non-monogamy and unconventional relationships. Alex is originally from Montreal, but lives in upstate New York with their partner, Metamore and Kids. Alex, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me. It's truly a joy. It's a joy to have you here.
So, Metamor is, we are doing this in March, and we kind of started a thing a couple years ago, like Metamor March, and I didn't realize, but Metamor Day is on February 28th. Did you all celebrate? Yes. Yes. I guess I did. I went over to a Metamore's house yesterday, so I was a day late to celebrate, but Metamore March.
So unintentionally, in our private Discord, we launched a Metamore's channel. And again, it was totally by accident. We weren't planning for it to roll out on Metamore's Day. It was just by popular demand. So yeah, I guess that was how we officially celebrated.
And I went to my local open mic with my Metamore and we wore matching I Love My Metamore shirts. And she read something that she wrote for the very first time. And I've been doing that for a long time. So it was really nice to kind of support her in that. That's so cool. That's really, really cool. Yeah, I went out with my metamor and our mutual partner and some friends last night. So I guess we all did cool stuff with our metamors. How lovely.
I read an article recently that you did, Alex, from I think a couple years ago, and you said in the article that metamors are one of the best parts of polyamory. And that was really interesting to me because that's not what goes through my head initially. that metamors are one of the best parts of polyamory. So for the group, what to you is the best part of polyamory or non-monogamy? And where do metamors fit into that?
Yeah, I would agree with you, Emily, that I wouldn't lead as part of my polyamory PR campaign. I wouldn't lead with, oh, yeah, metamors are the best parks. I think that's a hard sell for people. But when I do think about my favorite. memories and the things that I cherish most that I feel have been a direct result of having multiple partners. There's usually a metamor involved somewhere in there.
You know, like I realized that I can't extract my favorite memories from either a meta of my own being involved or like seeing my partner in their meta being involved in some way. So truly the threads are there, I would think. What about you, Jays? Yeah, no, I would agree. I think that the times I guess what I will say is maybe not that metamors are my favorite part of polyamory, but my favorite parts of polyamory are when the metamors are good. So maybe I would flip that the other way around.
But I do like that aspect. when it's good. But I feel like so many people come into it with like fear and worry and concern. Yeah. Can you talk about why you said that, Alex? Because I found that to be just so unbelievable because so many of us I think are really scared of the possibility of having another person that we don't know and that we don't necessarily choose to have in our life become such a potentially big part of our lives.
even if it is just through knowing them through a mutual partner, or maybe they even become a part of your life in a bigger way. Yeah, it's interesting because when I started with non-monogamy, I had no thoughts about metamors, meaning other than just like... Yeah, they're sort of a byproduct of what I want, which is multiple, you know, intimate relationships. But once I developed my first close metamor relationship, I think I was just really surprised about the kind of intimacy that we had.
And it's something that even though I've written so much about it, I still sometimes struggle to sum it up. It's it just felt so unique to me. This sort of like it. friendship there's fondness there is intimacy there's trust obviously trust developed over time and it just it was at a time where I was really craving more intimate friendships in my life
And I was living in New York City. And it was really hard to make friends, to be honest. Like, people had time for me if it was to date or to have sex. But people have full lives and as an adult in a new place. And I'm not saying that for me, metamores are just a different way to make friends. It's almost like it became more intimate and more committed, if you will, than friendship. But it kind of allowed.
a level of intimacy, almost like a quick jump to intimacy that took maybe much longer to develop with friends. And for me, it was also, it's not really the compersion. It's not really about being happy for my partner when they are with their other partner or me having some sort of tingly feelings when I see that. It's actually even just. being able to share with someone who knows my partner in the same intimate way.
So almost like having someone that I can also ask advice to, having someone that when I talk about my partner, they'll really understand in a way that no one else would. And to me, that feeling of sharing was something that I had. I just didn't know it existed. Do you think that you just lucked out or, you know, have you paved a trail of bad Metamore relationships that you've escaped from in the past?
I definitely, I would say that the metamores that I didn't kind of click with or that were more challenging for me, they did not end up extremely long relationships with my other partner. Even though now I'm in very much of a situation that is much more kind of non-hierarchical, nested polyamory with my partner and my metamor.
Back then, when I was looking for non-monogamy and I finally met someone who was willing to do it with me, we ended up doing like very hierarchical and kind of like we have our main relationship and the metamors are secondary. So, like, my partner had several metamors that maybe...
I didn't click with her. It was harder for me to manage my own jealousy or feelings of insecurity. But then when I clicked with someone, it so happened that it also became a very meaningful relationship for my partner, Dawn. So I think on one hand, maybe it's luck. And on the other hand, it's almost like the people that made sense for our system, like our constellation, are the people that ended up sticking around longer. Does that make sense?
Sure. Almost like, I mean, I think in the entertainment industry, we think about how the audience self-selecting. That's the phrase that ran through my brain is this idea of, yeah, like the right people who would fit in your ecosystem were the ones who stayed in that ecosystem.
But I definitely had, like, there was one of my number in particular, and I do talk about that in my book, where I actually would have liked to have an even deeper relationship with her. But she just didn't, I think, have the same desire, which is perfectly fine. But it's almost like... That's my favorite type of polyamory. So when we do meet people who kind of want to build this sort of more entwined level of relationships, that's when things get just. really beautiful and exciting for me.
It sounds like you have had some metamore relationships that weren't particularly great. Can all of us sort of reflect back on what some of our best metamor relationships have been and what some of our worst metamor relationships have been and why? Dedeker, you and I had a mutual partner.
And that was sort of in the early stages of non-monogamy, for me at least. And you and I had a mutual metamor as well that... I think didn't make much of an effort to... really get to know either of us and so the only time that we really got to see them was maybe during parties or mutual hangouts or some you know places where all of us were together for whatever reason
But unfortunately, that person tended to be someone who was a little bit more standoffish. And therefore, I don't necessarily think that we ever got the opportunity to get to know them very well. It just never clicked or vibed as well as maybe I would have liked.
Well, I appreciate, Alex, you talking about how when you were at the beginning of this journey, you had no thoughts about metamors and you thought of them as really a byproduct because I think I was very much in that same camp where even though... When I was first starting the whole polyamory experiment, I had read the available books and the articles and stuff like that. And people talked about metamors, but there wasn't quite...
this same taxonomy as exists now of like, do you want to be kitchen table? Do you want to cohabit together someday? Do you want to co-parent or do you want to be more parallel or things like that? That vocabulary at least wasn't in the circles that I was running in. And so... Not only was I really not thinking about how I wanted to intentionally create relationships with Madame Morris, but I also wasn't even really thinking about the fact that there could be options.
Right. Like, cause Emily, I think, you know, cause we, we first connected as metas trying to process this other meta. that we shared in common, like trying to understand her, trying to understand what was going on in that relationship. And
I mean, there were already also, I think like Alex, you were talking about, there are also, you know, like this particular meta, I think also wasn't completely bought into the whole non-monogamy thing as well. And that complicated it. But I do think there were just like a lot of flavors of the conversation that we didn't even. realize could be part of that at that time.
Yeah, I love what you're saying about, oh, we didn't even know all the different types of non-monogamy and the different types of metamore relationship. That's also where I was when I started, even though I had read some of the books. And I think that the focus on what metamores can be has been much more recent in time. And I think it's difficult because then people came in with their very specific ideas of what it should be.
For me, there was one men and more in particular who not only did not want to meet me, but did not want to kind of see any trace of me. Oh, wow. Yes. Yeah, I've definitely come across that. Been there. We've been there. Yeah. So that was really difficult for me because...
Even though I prefer developing, you know, a pretty intimate relationship with a man or more, I also like to be like, you know, let's see what the people involved will, you know, want collectively and what naturally will happen. But when it felt so... There was literally a fence that I could not cross and that felt really uncomfortable. So it was hard to really even enjoy what this relationship added to my partner's life because I just had no entry, no window into it.
That's a really interesting distinction there as well, that you're thinking about it from the context of I want to understand to a degree what this person brings to your life, what it is that you're enjoying with them, the kind of person that you might be around them that differs from the kind of person that you are around me. And if you don't get to know a metamor more intimately, it's really difficult to do that.
I think, yeah, it dedicated the difference between the relationship that you and I had with our mutual metamor and the kind of relationship that you and I developed and therefore have developed over the past decade. I think is really astounding just because you and I, yeah, we bonded over mutual things and we're both kind of nerdy and we're both similar in a lot of ways. But we also, I think, wanted to get to know one another and wanted to...
Learn more about each other and develop a friendship and a relationship and you know It was also a romantic relationship for a while outside of just our relationship with our two mutual partners Well, this feels like an appropriate time to come skidding in. I didn't know. I knew this was going to happen at some point in this episode. I wasn't sure where, but I feel like someone needs to represent.
I think the growing number of people who want to be more parallel with their metas or who are starting to question... I think, Alex, you talked about people bringing this idea of how they think it should be, right? You know, people who are realizing, oh, maybe I'm putting undue pressure on myself to be my metamorist best friend. You know, maybe I'm putting undue pressure on myself to get really, really close to this person really, really fast.
And maybe it's not a situation where I don't want to see any trace of them or pretend that they don't exist. But I want to just be aware of if I want to actually put my energy there or not. And so I want to make sure that those people don't get lost. in this conversation. I'm sure you have some thoughts about that, Alex.
Sure. Yeah. And like you said, I think a big difference is like no trace versus that's not really what I want. And I think for me, it also comes back to compatibility a little bit. the same in any kind of relationship and and then it depends on the collection of people involved but it's like
Depending on the kind of relationship, if I started dating someone and they're like, I really don't want to meet the other people in your life. Right now, for me, that would be hard because it also means time-wise, I'm much more limited. So it's almost like it's a different kind of constraint because I have a partner and a metamor that I live with. I also have kids. I also have a lot of work. So then when you chop all of that down, if I can't really mix.
my different partners together or do so in very very limited ways it just means that our relationship will look a little different in terms of time and I think it's also I think it's good for people to have an idea of what they want and don't want also with metamors when they start new relationships. Because that can help. And of course, you can always figure it out as you build the relationships. But I feel like it can help earlier on figuring out, are we a good match for each other or not?
Something that I've been actually thinking about a lot recently was a conversation that we all had a while ago where we were interviewed for a story that was about basically building better collaborative relationships. saying, hey, this article isn't about polyamory, but... Clearly, there's some kind of working together and teamwork that's happening here that maybe we don't even conceptualize. And so I've been thinking a lot about that conversation. And specifically, there was a part where.
I was telling a story about how Dedeker's partner at the time and I... So Dedeker and I were in Japan at the time, and he was in Australia, I think, at the time. He was in Singapore. That's where he was living and working. And so he and I planned secretly to have him fly out.
to Japan for a week-long visit or something like that. And I helped him, you know, coordinate, flying out, doing all that. And then he and I met up at a coffee shop and then I called Dedeker and said, come meet me at this coffee shop. And we surprised her. And it was this fun, collaborative thing. And it kind of broke the journalist's brains a little bit, where they were kind of like, I don't know that I would like...
Essentially thinking of it like, oh, doing something so bad for myself just to help out somebody else. Selfless was the word. Selfless. How she described you. Oh my gosh, so selfless, so altruistic. Right. And I was just like, whoa, that's not at all how I thought about that. It was like, sure, I'm helping out them do this surprise, but I think that people can over-evaluate or think that there's some sort of great cost with ever helping anybody who wants to sleep with the same person you do.
or who wants to be intimate and be in a relationship with that person. And I think... That really highlighted for me how much my own perception of that has changed over time. Because to give a little more context on that relationship, with me and that metamore, we were not close. I wouldn't even say we were really friends, but we were always cordial with each other. We also lived in different countries, so we didn't run into each other very often.
But, you know, we'd see each other, we'd be polite, we'd coordinate things of, oh, actually, you know, let's go in together on this birthday present. It's like we, I want to say it's almost more like co-workers.
in a way that we're co-workers in this mutual relationship right it's it's a weird thing to say but that's how it felt to me it was like we're in the relationship department right we're in the relationship department of dediker winston industries and you know like we're We're on the same team in a way because we all kind of want the same goals. But we're not besties. We're not working on the same projects as each other. We're not having to coordinate everything we do.
but we can sometimes. And I feel like that, getting that across to people, I wish I had a better way to tell it. Like even telling you three who kind of get it, I feel like I had to use a lot of words to try to explain all the context of what I'm going for here. It's just such a foreign concept. I think it's a great example, actually. And I love that you say that you were not that close, right? Like that's where it's different. Because if you had been really close,
then it would have felt maybe more natural. But this reminds me, your example of co-workers just makes me laugh so hard. I feel like people do that with their in-laws or their extended family, like someone's birthday rolls around or there's a family holiday that people celebrate and they'll kind of team up even though they only talk, you know, a couple of times a year. And the reason people don't find that weird is that one, they've seen it before, but two, it doesn't feel threatening to them.
Because it doesn't include the like, oh, my partner will be spending time with someone else and therefore I should feel jealous or insecure. So that reaction from the journalist probably stemmed from that. Like we're not used. to not having that feeling factor in. And I think that if people were able to somehow see metamors as extended family, I feel like it's a really great metaphor because there's typically, in general, anecdotally, based on the people around me, not that much.
with your in-laws, your extended family. But if you happen to live close and to really get along, then maybe those people do become kind of a much greater part of your life. And that can change also over the course of a lifetime. Which happens with metamores. Like, my metamore that I live with right now, for a full year when she was dating my partner, we barely saw each other. Even though we liked each other pretty well, but...
She lived three hours away and we would text every once in a while. And also, it's just we didn't prioritize seeing each other one-on-one all that much. And then when our life goals and desires kind of lined up in a different way, then that changed. So it's just. It's just nice to also leave room for... going from parallel to less parallel or maybe less parallel to more parallel in the future. And that's just based on, you know, what you need.
Well, do you think that you have an underlying ethic or guiding light around this? Because of course, there's a certain, I'll explain what I mean by that chunky of a question, is that there's a lot that's unknown. There's a lot that's out of our control. and y'all on this show a lot we talk we compare metamors to being like extended families or like in-laws right it's like these people that you don't get to choose necessarily and then
So there's that level of the unknown that I can't control. I can't control which person my partner chooses to date. And also I can't really control like whether or not we're going to click. I can't control the speed of how their relationship is going to develop. Like, are they going to develop intimacy really quickly or really slowly? Is it going to turn into...
a more emotionally entangled relationship, a less emotionally entangled relationship. And so with all of those floating factors in mind, What do you think is your guiding ethic when it comes to just like creating a relationship with a metamor, with somebody who's new? That's a really interesting question and no one has ever asked me. I really like it. It's interesting because there's guiding ethic and then there's also just guiding desires, right? Which can be two separate things.
Right away, I was almost thinking of kind of my guiding light as far as what I hope to build in my life or the kind of family I hope to build in my life versus what's the ethic. I think I definitely have always put a lot of effort. into getting to know someone that my partner is dating because obviously they are finding someone to like about them. When it's been particularly hard is when...
It takes a long time for me to kind of even make an opinion of it. But when I'm like, is this relationship good for you? You know, it's a very difficult position to be in when you're an external observer, but at the same time, you're completely biased. And your opinion weighs so much for your partner. So making the smallest observation can have such an impact on their relationship. And I don't know when I became aware of that, but eventually, I guess. So that's part of the ethic, I guess.
I want to do right by my partner and the relationship. And that means both trying to be open in welcoming the relationship, but also trying to not influence it and let it develop the way it develops. And then also really doing right by the metamore. I think I've. I've been in positions where I was kind of, you know, someone's metamor and didn't really like how I was treated.
So I do try to think about what their experience of me is like. And especially, you know, I've I've been doing this for over 10 years, but like much more so in the first, I guess, half of my journey, but being really aware of kind of my. power as a partner that has been longer established in my partner's life. So that's another thing that I do have in mind.
Which is hard for me, and that's why I appreciate you, Dedeker, bringing up like, hey, like, let's give representation to the parallel poem. Is that at the end of the day, I... I mean, my desires have changed over time, so never say never. But right now, parallel polyamory is not what I am generally looking for. So also being open to what people's... deferring desires can also bring and maybe parallel polyamory can be you know good and fitting for what we collectively need right now
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So I am sort of newly opening up again after a 10-year relationship that was... mostly monogamous I was speaking to someone about it today and I was like it was mostly monogamous for the entire time that that was happening and a lot of it quite frankly was pretty toxic and I feel like I am still unlearning a lot of parts of monogamous culture that teaches you so much that
having a relationship with someone means that you need to be the best and one that they care about the most and that even them having experiences, even if they're like one-off sexual experiences or getting to know someone more and having a potential for another relationship. There are still parts of me that get a little squeaked by that, and I can feel it. And from a conceptual standpoint...
I'm able to move past that, but sometimes the visceral reactions that happen are still there. And it sucks. Like, I saw a picture of my metamor, who I talk to all the time now. And, you know, we're pretty good friends and we hung out last night, but like... On Instagram the other day, I saw a picture of her and my partner and I was like, oh, you know, it just it had this like very weird visceral reaction. I had to. asked myself, what the hell was that about? Why are you having this reaction?
But all of that aside, I guess I would ask, what is some of the advice that you would give to people who are more new to polyamory or who are coming back to it again after a long period of time off from it? and who don't really know how to navigate the jealousy or fear that they have towards metamors or the potential of metamors even. Yeah, it's hard to give kind of a one size fits all answer for that, right? But I appreciate that you're saying.
you were asking yourself, okay, what was that about? And for me, that's always how it worked. It was, and it's hard in the moment to do it because you don't, when you're emotional, it's hard to be like, oh, now let me analyze. What is behind this feeling? So one, it was kind of accepting that it's an okay feeling to have.
That you're not, that it does not mean that you cannot do non-monogamy or polyamory. It does not mean, you know, to just like have time. And for a while I had, I mean, this can work for any situation aside from just.
uncomfortable feelings vis-à-vis metamors, but I sort of had my kind of like... toolkit of like things that soothe me and some of those things that I can do on my own that like I don't need my partner like even though I would want to have discussions with my partners and reassurance for my partner.
to be like, okay, when I'm feeling kind of losing it a little bit, I know that if I walk down to the movie theater and see a movie by myself like that usually helps me kind of just like recenter or like this specific playlist will also help me which sounds very silly but just like in the moment when i was spinning it was hard to remember those things so for me I just had it kind of all written down and be like okay what can I do and then when I was
out of the sort of really intense space of those feelings to then try to be like okay what is behind that feeling is it that I'm scared that I'm gonna lose time with my partner is it that I'm scared that I'm not doing the thing that I witnessed for my partner. Is it
And again, there's no, I don't think there's like an easy answer to that because it sounds easy to just say it. And it's like, okay, sure. I identified that I'm scared of losing time with my partner. Now, what do I do? But just sort of talking about it and having my partner be like, okay, yeah, that's okay.
And for me, yeah, scheduling, having rituals with my partner that I could go back to. And then over time, these feelings became easier. But yeah, I don't know. What do you think was behind your feelings? Oh, 100 percent. It was, you know, that potential like loss of time or loss of intimacy or anything along those lines. But I agree, like I really had to look at.
the what are you longing for here portion of that. And right when I came home, I was in Hong Kong for a number of months and my partner started a relationship with my now metamor. during that time and I was having a lot of emotions about it and we hadn't met yet and I was like you know what I'm gonna Make this happen. I really am gonna reach out and just say like hey, can we go hang out somewhere do a coffee date or something?
And since that time, we've talked a lot. And they've been non-monogamous for a long time. A number of years are very much in that scene. And definitely, I think, are more well-versed in homogamy at this point than I am. But I will say that since that time, I've felt just so much better about my feelings have been so much more, I think, positive.
And my emotions have been so much more positive since then. And that to me was just putting this person in front of me and seeing them as a whole human being as opposed to just... all of my thoughts run amok of the fear about are they way cooler than I am and way hotter than I am and all of that bullshit. that we so often kind of run into, I think. And so, yeah, I love that toolkit thing because sometimes...
Your emotions and I think just the really intense reactions that you don't exactly know where they're coming from, that can kind of catch you off guard. And if you have tools in place to help you through that. it can help you realize that it's not going to last forever.
Yeah, but I'm glad you talked about meeting your metamor because that's also a thing. It's like I want to be flexible with all different, you know, desires and types of polyamory. But for me, it also I've had that experience several times also like you, I would. I would describe it as like the person is the shape of a villain, kind of like a shadow that is undefined. And then I project all of my worst insecurities onto them.
And once you meet them, even if you don't hit it off and become best friends, they do become a full human, like you said. And often my experience was, oh, they're all so nervous to meet me. Or I can see they're sort of like... vulnerabilities, and then you can have at least some compassion for them too. It doesn't necessarily remove all of those feelings right away, but it just really helps to work on them.
Okay, but I want to take that thread and run with it. And yes, I think all of us on this call... have had that experience, right? Of like, when you actually are given the opportunity to see your meta as a human being, to see the vulnerabilities, that it does shift things and can change things.
And also what I have sometimes seen people do is, Maybe taking that a little too far in the sense of sometimes I see people reaching out to a meta for security in a situation where they really should be working on something with their partner for security.
And I think they can get a little fuzzy, that delineation between what is like an actual healthy, helpful development of a relationship or connection with the meta versus what is maybe trying to overcompensate for a lack of security that's in the relationship. I just want to jump in and say I've seen that same thing in an even more negative sense of
My partner is maybe doing something that is hurting my feelings, right? Like they're canceling on dates with me because of wanting to do something with my metamor, wanting to do something with their other partner. And it can be easy to put that blame on the metamor and to, again, let them fill that role of the villain and complain about them and they're the problem rather than focusing on, yeah, but actually the behavior that hurt me was what my partner did.
Not actually something that the metamore did in that situation, right? And kind of putting the, I guess, putting the responsibility of what's the relationship that I want to change or affect or repair in that case. on the one that's actually the relationship you're actively in versus kind of this.
secondary party to that. Does that make sense? I feel like we can both look to them for reassurance or as a place to put all of our negative feelings. Yeah, though I think In a way, looking for them for reassurance is almost like a means of control or can be a means of control. Like, if they reassure me, then I feel like I have a better grasp on the situation. It's interesting. I never thought about it this way. But I've also seen a situation like that.
talking about like, well, is it the metamor's fault if the metamor made maybe some requests or demands and then the partner obliged, you know, like everyone makes their own decision. And it's easy to basically say like, oh, my metamor's needs are what here is hurting me when in fact you do have that individual relationship with your partner. I bring it up because that was a personal experience of mine in my relationship with Dedeker from very early on in our relationship was
A bad Metamor relationship, probably my worst Metamor relationship, was with her longer-term partner at the time. But anyway, he was the more established partner, I was the newer partner for Dedeker at the time. And, you know, it was a pretty negative relationship. It got more negative over time. But I remember a key turning point in my relationship with Detiker was...
When I hit that realization and made that switch from... That I was actually the villain. That you were the villain, yeah. He wasn't the villain. Well, yeah, kind of. I mean, that seems terrible to say, but to kind of realize that actually rather than complaining to Dedeker about these things that this metamor is doing to us and to me and to our relationship...
Realizing like, actually, wait, your decision and what you did here was what hurt me, but that gave us the ability to actually talk about what happened and figure out how to... clearly express what the problem was for me and for her to also understand, oh, this is my relationship with you that's affected here, not this kind of...
secondary relationship that you have to your metamor that I'm trying to be this go-between. Because we've also seen that go bad so many times when the hinge partner kind of feels like they have to referee or try to be this go-between between a contentious relationship. When maybe that's not their place. I'd say usually that's not their place. Well, I think that's a good opportunity to talk about The other side of this, right, of being the hinge, being the person who has two partners.
And the party line that I always like to take is that I think that hinging is a skill, right? I don't think any of us enter into this world. just naturally amazing hinges i'm willing to have a debate about that but like i do think it's like a very particular skill and i'm curious to hear your thoughts about that like what you think goes into like How much responsibility does a hinge have in helping to lay a pathway for a good metamor relationship?
Yeah, that's really interesting. I also agree that we're not born. The tiny baby. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the example that comes to mind right now, because it's fresh, it's like I said, in the past year, my metamor has moved in with me. And before that, even though... We clicked so well, but we hadn't had actually that much time, you know, like being together, even in person. And now looking back, it was a pretty big leap of faith.
That's something that I really wanted. And I was the one actually who said, why don't we consider this possibility? But then... When she moved in, we kind of just fell into a situation where my communication style and her communication style were quite different, where... I sort of wanted lots of communication all the time and like scheduled check-ins and that kind of stuff.
And to be fair, you know, she was kind of going through a depressive episode, but naturally she tends to be a bit more avoidant of difficult discussions where I kind of just, you know, dive right in. So our mutual partner, Don, as the hinge, ended up like now looking back, he's like, I would never do it this way again. But I think he was being the person who knew both of us. so much hope and strong beliefs that we were very compatible, but we were kind of in a situation where
We each have personal things we were going through that made it maybe a little difficult. And also it was a big transition. I was also becoming a stepparent for the first time. But because of that, he ended up moderating discussion so much. And even so, I would have these discussions with him where I'm like, I would really like to talk to Saga about XYZ. And he would be, I don't think this week is a good week for that because...
She's in that sort of space. And from him, this came from the place of, I'm so worried that if we have too many conversations that don't go well, they will give up. and say we're not compatible versus he was like, if I can just get the right timing, I feel like it's going to go so well.
To be fair, in the long term, he was right. Now we're on the other side of it and we've hit a huge breakthrough and I couldn't be happier and I feel like I'm so compatible with her. But when it was happening, he actually kind of delayed, I think. Because I was thinking, well, he's the hinge. He knows better. Like he knows both of us. So I need to delay my own needs in order to listen to him.
So one thing that he learned, he was like, I need to really step back. And even if I maybe have my own fears of what might happen, if you two have a conversation that doesn't go well, I need to still let you decide of the timing. Anyway, that's just the example I came to mind. I just I've so been there as a hinge and I've seen this play out so many times where I don't think you enter a scenario like that.
thinking, oh, I'm going to play 4D chess and just like manipulate and move these two people around in order to try to get them to get along. I don't think anyone comes into a scenario with that in mind. But when you are coming from this place of, I know I have all this information, I know.
what this partner is going through and I know what this partner is going through and I know what the trigger word is going to be for this partner that it's really just really really hard to step back and be like they got to figure it out instead of trying to I don't know move the chess pieces around or
I don't know, hold up the Barbie dolls and try to get them to kiss or things like that. Good Lord. Yeah, that's actually the part that I wanted to circle back around to. And in thinking about some of these past relationships like that, that first metamore complicated relationship that we all had way back at the beginning was one where there was more of this like open dislike between that metamore and myself right that I kind of eventually had that realization of
stepping back from making it about him and instead just focusing on my own relationship. And that ended up being the turning point for things getting a lot better in our relationship and kind of letting... Dedeker have her own relationship with that other person. That's not my responsibility to meddle in that. My only responsibility is in the relationships that I do have, that I am part of. You can also meddle trying to do something good.
like trying to even improve the relationship, but you're still meddling. And that has certainly happened to me where I'm like, this relationship is great. And I just want to make sure that it's as great as possible. So like, why don't you plan a trip? You haven't planned a trip yet. Or why don't you do this? And it's just. It's just really interesting how hard it is to actually step back sometimes.
Yeah, well, I think that's the deal. And I think people struggle with that, obviously, not just in non-monogamy, but it's like we... have that urge to want to meddle when you see like your sisters in what seems like not a great relationship, right? Or you see your mom like making a decision that you really don't agree with. But I feel like that's the constant push pull that we have to deal with is like how much...
can I actually help here by being like lovingly honest or compassionate or giving suggestions or stuff like that? And how much do I need to like preserve my energy and kind of create an appropriate amount of space there? Real quick before this next section, did you know that you can get ad-free early releases of this show, as well as access to monthly video processing groups and exclusive private channels on our Discord server?
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So to go with my bummer question here, the thing that I wanted to ask about or just discuss together is... The challenge of when you do connect with a metamor and then that relationship ends up not working out with your shared partner. And now that can be a weird situation too. And I feel like I've, I haven't ever had the situation where I've connected so closely with a metamor and then their relationship with our shared partner ends and I continue on that friendship.
I've never had that level where my relationship is so much closer with this metamor that I would keep having that, but I know some people do. And they can end up in that complicated situation of, well, I have this friend now who's not a metamor, but they're still my friend. How do I handle that?
Or I've had other times where I find sometimes I now find myself a little hesitant to get too close to a metamor too early on in their relationship with our shared partner, because it's kind of like, well, I don't know if you're going to last yet, and so I don't want to get too attached. And when I was thinking about this question, it reminded me of something my mom said to me in high school, I think.
Because, you know, I dated a fair amount in high school, but none of them lasted longer than six months or whatever, right? Like fairly short high school relationships. And I remember at one point my mom saying to me something along the lines of, okay, that's cool that you feel excited about this person, but I feel like I've been hurt too many times by getting attached to people you've dated, and then...
you breaking up and me losing that. So I'm going to kind of hold back a little bit, which is essentially exactly the same thing I'm saying here. And I'm just like, oh my God, is a parent relationship sort of a proxy for a metamor in some way? I definitely have stayed friends with a metamor. And for me, what's interesting is that the first time that my partner broke up with his partner and then I was so focused, I did not expect me to be heartbroken.
So I didn't even give myself space to mourn that, which is interesting. Like now something that. Now, if it were to happen again, then I would be more aware of that. But then I did find it difficult because even though it was totally fine for all parties for us to continue our friendship, especially early on, it was difficult because...
When you have a friend, you're not necessarily censored for parts of your life. But I was really aware that if I talk about my partner or if I share certain things, then what impact? does it have on this former metamore? And that was a little tricky for both of us, I think, to navigate for a while. But yeah, it's...
It is really hard. It's also really hard depending on the context of the breakup, that maybe that person hurt your partner and you're seeing that firsthand, yet you have to somehow separate that. Again, as we're talking about is like this is not your relationship. And even though they hurt your partner, it doesn't mean that they're a bad person or that they can't be your friend in that way. But it is really hard to navigate when it happens.
I'm just trying to think about proxies that people would think of as more, quote, normal, right? And I guess the closest thing I can think of is when you date someone that a close friend used to date. which I think a lot of us have seen something similar to that, especially if you're in a smaller town or a smaller community where it's like, yeah, okay, I'm dating someone now that this friend used to date.
And so maybe that friend's a little bit weird about me talking about this person I'm dating. And also maybe it's weird for the person I'm dating to know that I'm friends with this person like that. That, I think, is maybe a more relatable situation that's a little bit similar. And again, there's not a lot of good guidelines on here's how you do that well.
It is kind of having to feel it out, I think, and try to be respectful of everybody and also hope they respect you and your decisions and your relationship. Something that you were talking about, Jace, there as well, in regards to your mom's statement, I found really interesting because Before I got home, I had asked my partner, like, hey, I'd really like to meet this new person that you're dating.
And he talked to her about it, and her initial reaction, even though she's been non-monogamous for a while, was, why? Or, why do you want to do that yet? And when I spoke to the two of you about it, because I felt like, oh, God, do they not want to talk to me? Do they not want to meet me? The two of you sort of did the let's pump the brakes thing here. And instead.
see if this is even going to last, if this is even going to be a thing that... they're going to continue doing for a while because if it is then maybe down the line yeah you two can meet and that will make sense. But if it is just going to be sort of a chill, fun thing, casual thing for a while, then maybe there's not necessarily a need to get super involved in this relationship.
I guess my question is, is there like a time at which, you know, the best time when people should be meeting metamores? Or I guess that's probably specific to the individual. But yeah, if it is going to be kind of chill and cash, then... I don't know. Maybe y'all don't need to become besties. Is this similar to like, when is the right time to meet the parents? When to take that emotional risk, when to decide that you're going to even make that tiny bit of investment.
of energy and emotion into this person yeah and kind of asking other people in your life that you care about to invest a little bit or to connect with this person And different families might have different standards for that, right? I've certainly dated people where they were like, by the third date, you need to meet my partner. Wow. I've come across that too, yeah. Right. And you, I mean, I can't really generalize from like my small sample size, I guess.
Usually I think it was people who were maybe a little earlier in their journey and perhaps a bit more nervous, which for me was fine. But... I think it varies drastically. And I think for you in your context, Emily, what's interesting is that you were away when that relationship started. And how long were you away again? Almost three months. He came and visited me in Hong Kong when I was over there. And then the next week they slept together. And so I had this like very jarring.
I was just with you. It was really lovely to have you here. And we had this like wonderful time together. And then he, a week later, like. starts this other relationship. And that to me was like, wait a minute, what's going on here? And again, I had to separate myself from this notion that that had really anything to do with me or our relationship. And instead it was just like... No, he's taking the opportunity to have a fun time with someone and see what develops.
But yeah, my knee-jerk reaction was, I gotta meet this person, I gotta make this. you know, make sure that they know that I'm cool and that everything's going to be fine. Cause yeah, that's also my fatal flaw of wanting everyone to like me. And so I very much was like, I need this person to like me and to be okay with me immediately.
It's really interesting because talking about when you were saying, oh, you know, the feelings I had seeing the picture of them on Instagram was also probably like fear of losing some time. And I don't know how long ago that was, but I've had a similar experience where I was away seeing my family in Montreal for a few weeks. And that was at the very beginning of a relationship. And then my partner was seeing that new person multiple times a week. And I just had this feeling like, well...
She's getting to know you at a time where I'm not enmeshed in your life. I'm not like a part of the equation, if you will. So it gave me a lot of insecurities because I was like, she's building this idea that like... your availability is very different. So it's just very scary in that context. Totally. And I know, yeah, Jason, you've talked about that a lot as well, that there were times when Dedeker was potentially like with a partner in a different country.
And that meant that you were seeing a partner back at home more often. But then when Dedeker came home, that had to shift. a lot in terms of the amount of time that you were able to give that partner. It's this constantly fluctuating... always needing to really communicate about expectations. the reality of the situation at hand because it can really ebb and flow, I think, based on how often a person is around or when they happen to come back into your life or not.
and even other aspects of your life like there are seasons where my work is so busy i have so little time and that's almost like a partner right like there's just a lot to factor in yeah 100 Well, I want to circle back because I can anticipate a lot of people in our audience yelling wait hold on you moved in with your meta we need to know more please tell us more either you know I think there's a chunk of our audience that would be
Just like, oh my God, I could never imagine doing that. But we also have a lot of listeners who are frustrated that there's not a lot of resources to help us navigate a transition like that very intentionally. And so you've... Spoken a little bit about that transition, but I want to know what... It was actually helpful. How were the three of you able to lay the groundwork so that that...
choosing to live together was ultimately a success. And not just live together, but co-parent together as well. Yeah, it's a lot. So it's interesting because before we moved in together, I was like, we need to do this right. We need to whiteboard what we want. We need to talk about our fears. And I do believe it helped.
but I think in my head it would like solve everything. It was like proper planning and discussions will mean that this will be smooth or smooth-ish, right? Like just like nothing. really hard, nothing that makes you question whether it was the right decision or not. And what we did is kind of laid out what we hoped for that, what were our individual needs. What were our fears, which I think was really helpful to talk about and to kind of.
plan around a little bit. I do think that when there are kids involved, like even outside of co-living or polyamory, all of the monogamous people around me that I've been close to who have kids, especially young kids, kind of under 10. There's a lot of strain on their relationship, on their day-to-day. It's a lot of energy that goes towards that. And for me, I had never done that before.
And of course, it's a blended family situation where the kids are getting two step parents, which they were they adapted so well. They love their new school. And all of a sudden they had. three adults instead of one to give them attention and love and like that part was actually lovely. But yeah, I think what was really hard is kind of adapting to the day to day and both the communications and also the preferences when it came to both parenting and the nitty gritty of sharing a home space.
So Saga was a single mom for several years and then moved in and then kind of for the first time in her life had sort of a lot of space and safety around her and the kids. So unexpectedly, it kind of just made some past.
things that she hadn't looked at and maybe repressed for a while or, you know, she'd been kind of keeping everything together in survival mode a little bit. So that sort of sent her... just in a personal path that was difficult and made that transition even harder in terms of communication.
And it became a difficult thing because the things that I needed, which was planning, reading parenting books, talking about, you know, what are our philosophies? How do we handle each situation? What are the house routines that we want? chore charts, all that stuff, they were kind of triggers a little bit for her where she kind of wanted to, it was really hard for her to engage with those things.
And to be fair, when you've been a single mom for a long time and you've tried to do it the right way, quote unquote, and it hasn't worked and you've been burnt out for a while, you're kind of like, well. whatever happens at school happens at school and you know what i mean so and then don like i said earlier was a little bit like in the middle trying to just really manage all of that
What has helped is Don stepping back and me stopping to kind of just listen to Don as like he knows best because he knows both of us. Like he had been with Saga for I think a year and a half. And also he knew the kids a bit more than me. So I just had this constant, like, whatever I think or whatever I need. He knows best. So I just delayed a lot of my needs. So I think when you find yourself delaying, delaying, delaying, it's just a terrain for resentment.
And then Saga, on her end, really tried hard to kind of meet me halfway in communicating. And there are times where communicating with words face-to-face was harder for her, so she wrote emails. which was great. And we had this kind of like three-way email chain for a long time. And then I think for me, a big thing was something that was hard is that when you have challenges and that kind of situation, you have nowhere to look to.
Like not even just, you know, I really loved a new book that came out by Laura Boyle, Monogamy in this Economy. It is a great resource when you are thinking of building, you know, like nesting with more than two adults, essentially. But in terms of just the intuitive models around you, like having seen other people struggle with that, you don't. And even friends who really care about me and knew how much I'd been wanting this for a long time.
I think their reaction is like, but of course it's hard because it's in this situation. So instead of questioning, what do we need to do? Or is this the right fit? It's more, can this model even work? And that is really hard to then stay with your commitment. Whereas when you're in a relationship and you're like, I'm not questioning my commitment here. I'm just trying to figure out how we can navigate this. It's just a different ballgame. So I had to kind of go back to
I'm committed to this. This is what I want. And I'm not going to give up after like, you know, three months at the first sign. of a struggle and then it makes it easier to not catastrophize everything and to kind of go like, okay, how do we get past that? No, I think that's such a great point to bring up because I think that a lot of people have that when they're first. moving from a monogamous default mindset to non-monogamy too, is that
It's not just, is this relationship working? It's like, is this type of relationship able to work at all, period. And I feel like then almost like the next stage of that is that metamore relationship of, is this even a possible relationship? Not just, is this a good one? How can I make this one work?
So yeah, that can be challenging when there's like that existential question shadowing over the whole thing. And so that's cool that you found a way to just say, no, I'm just going to... move ahead as if this is possible.
So that I can stop having that question weigh me down and actually focus on what's in front of me and the relationships I'm in. Right. And I'm not saying for everyone, just move forward regardless of what happens. You know, like obviously you reach a point where you're like, maybe this isn't a good fit. And something else that I think. some listeners might find interesting that I didn't expect is, so I've been with Dawn for 10 years.
He'd been with Saga for a year and a half when we moved in together. And then she brought her two kids. and very quickly you know the sort of family belonging and the co-parenting and all of that even though it was challenging to transitioned into that. It went really well and the kids really took to us well. It also meant going to school meetings, meeting teachers, going to the playground and meeting parents. And I live in a pretty conservative community, upstate New York.
So all of a sudden we were outside of our safe bubbles, our safe social bubbles. And I found myself, so I think people would assume that the newer partner would feel kind of left out like not left out but the way people look at it is like oh the real relationship is these two and then there's this other you know kind of new or less important person whereas I looked at them and I was like
oh, here's a woman and a man who look heterosexual, who have two kids, and everyone can read that situation, and they assume that that is the situation. And then here's the weird trans person. that we don't really know how to read or understand next to them. Clearly the third wheel. Exactly. That's a great point. That was so interesting for me and not expected at all to have sort of all these feelings of like, well, maybe this family would be better without me because...
We have to face these challenges of just existing in the world as we are. And then I felt like I was the piece that was kind of making this complicated, even though I knew deep down that that's not how they felt, but that's how it felt for me at times. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Alex, we so appreciate you coming on and sharing so much of your personal experiences. I know it's going to be so helpful to people listening. If people want to find out more about you and your work and what you're working on right now, where can they find out about that? So they can go to alexalberto.com and I'm also on Instagram at thatalexalberto. And what exciting things are you working on right now? So I'm in post-production for a short film called Coming Out Polyamorous for Thanksgiving.
It's based on a true life story where we were introducing my metamor to my partner's parents who are Southern and visited us in New York. And it was an incredibly tense dinner. So there is an essay about that in the book. And we made it into a short film. And now we're doing post-production. It's going to come out around Thanksgiving this year.
And we're also still raising funds for post-production. And one way we're doing that is if you go to alexalberto.com slash merch, we have a series of shirts. We have I love my metamore shirts. We have love is not finite. shirts and a few other kind of cool. Compersion is my superpower.
So all the profits go to post-production for the film. And yeah, that's my biggest project right now. You can also find my book Entwine everywhere you buy books. And I should have another writing non-monogamy class coming up this summer. Well, this was an excellent conversation. A lot of things for me to think about as well, heading into this time in my life where I am actually having metamors again.
having relationships with them and then seeing how their relationships with our mutual partner progress as well. So I really appreciate you coming on and talking about this because you clearly have a lot of knowledge on it and it was a wonderful conversation. Yeah, same to you all.
So this week on our Instagram stories, we have a question for all of you out there. The question of the week is going to be, what is the best part of having metamors? We're really interested to see what you have to say about that. And then the best place to share your thoughts with other listeners is in the episode discussion channel in our Discord server, or you can post in our private Facebook group.
You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to multiamory.com slash join. In addition, you can share with us publicly on Instagram at multiamory underscore podcast. Multiamory is created and produced by Jace Lindgren, Dedeker Winston.
Emily Matlack. Our production assistants are Rachel Schennewark and Carson Collins. Our theme song is Forms I Know I Did by Josh and Anand from the Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is available on this episode's page on multiamory.com.