I was like walking into the bar and I just sort of had this connection to myself again. Not that I'm not myself as a mother, it's just like who, you know, I was having that taste of like what it was like before. And it was very empowering for me and it was a very exciting... moment and I felt very nervous and you know but then I was able to relax into it because I knew everything was fine and I also wasn't
having to navigate any sort of relationship issues around this with Liam. It was full encouragement because if there had been one moment where Liam had said, well, have fun or, okay, I guess, you know, enjoy. Joy, you know, will just be waiting. There are no, in no way would I have gone. Like, it's like mothers.
or parent, you know, you can already feel that guilt. So there was none of that. There was just like, this is important for you, go, I've got this. So went and had the date and it was just amazing. Welcome to the Multiamory podcast. I'm Jace. I'm Emily.
And I'm Dediker. We believe in looking to the future of relationships, not maintaining the status quo of the past. Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous swinging casually dating or if you just do relationships differently we see you and we're here for you On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're doing another listener Q&A all about parenting while being non-monogamous.
Or keen-eared listeners in the audience will remember that the three of us do not have any children of our own, even though I do love taking care of my friend's children when I can. But to answer these questions, we are joined by some special guests. Abby and Liam are the founders of the Evolving Love Project, which hosts monthly conversation nights for non-monogamous or curious folk in Canberra and Sydney, Australia, and co-hosts the acclaimed podcast Evolving Love.
Abby also publishes weekly on Substack with her musings on non-monogamy, parenthood, and sexuality. Abby and Liam, thank you so much for joining us today. It's great to be here. Thanks so much, guys. So what is the weirdest question or assumption that you've encountered about parenting while being non-monogamous? Oh, that's a great question to kick it off. That's a good one. I think that one of the most interesting questions or assumptions that
you know, we asked is like, how do you have time for all of this? But also... you know, what is your house like? And just because you're, you know, if you're non-monogamous, does that mean that there's always like a sex party at your house or there's always like, there's so many people or it's like a party or... Or, you know, are you living out on a commune or something like that? I think that's sort of the one that sort of jars me because it's like, well, no, not at all. I mean, we consider it.
ourselves to be I think quite similar to to many parents you know we have like routine and structure and you know all of those things so when people sort of think that perhaps there's some wild things happening in our house all of the time it's like that really does take me off guard
I mean, it is full of energy always. We have a six-year-old son, and he's extremely active. So he's running around all the time. We're always playing sport together. We're going for bike rides. We're going hiking. We're doing... And I think often people think, oh, well, if you're non-monogamous, there's a time where you just kind of, you both leave the house and your child is left to fend for themselves at home. And I think that's a big misconception and a strange.
question that often gets inferred when people are asking us about being parents and and also being non-monogamous it's like yes for us you know our son is at the center of our universe and then of course all the non-monogamy kind of happens around that Yeah, that is so weird, those assumptions that people would make like that.
I'm also just thinking about some monogamous friends I have who I'm surprised at how many parties they throw at their house, even though they've got two kids now. I'm just like, how do you have the energy for it? Not even like that it's inappropriate or anything, but it's still just like, how? I don't have energy to throw parties and I don't have a kid. So six-year-old kid, does that mean that you two started non-monogamy before, during, or after the child entered the picture?
We did. We started exploring non-monogamy 10 years ago. So yeah, it's definitely been a journey, but it's... one of those very interesting things where there's You know, we were non-monogamous before we became parents and we were always curious about how that would then impact or change after we became parents. Would we become, you know, less interested in non-monogamy or would we still be interested?
you know and what would that look like because obviously when you become a parent you know things do change it is a big big change in your life and so yeah but I think that It's been really fascinating in the sense that I think a lot about... you know, experiences and discussions around non-monogamy has sort of in its own way had its own impact on our parenting as well as far as communication and logistics and, you know, being able to talk really openly about things with each other.
Yeah it's definitely been interesting. What do you find? Because I imagine that in the work that you do, since like you created this podcast and this community that you've probably met many other non-monogamous parents as well. Like, do you find a unifying theme of like what non-monogamous parents? maybe tend to struggle with or what their primary concerns tend to be?
Yeah, I think really one thing that we see often is just a sense of trying to deal with the logistics of it all. And also to deal with the emotional bandwidth of it all. I think some people... Certainly some parents definitely find it difficult to juggle other relationships and their primary relationship if they have a primary relationship with the mother of their child or children.
And I think there is that constant kind of tension with how much time you're spending in one particular part. And it's something that people are very appropriately aware of. And that's something that we definitely see in our conversation nights when we're talking to parents who are...
who are going maybe i feel really guilty because i'm going on a date with a partner and maybe i should be spending time with my kid or you know there's there is always that little bit of tension i think in in those moments Was there anything when you were heading into this, since you were exploring non-monogamy before becoming parents, was there anything that like...
I guess, were you surprised by anything that became different for you? Like, did you think that it was going to go one way and then it like didn't match your expectations? That's a really good question. We had the mindset of, you know, we're sort of moving into this next chapter of parenting and we're not 100% sure of how that's going to look like and that's actually okay.
That's almost similar to sort of how it was when we were opening up and exploring non-monogamy. It's like you can have these ideals, you can have all of these plans, you can be like, well, we're already non-monogamous and having this type of relationship and this type of separate dating. And when we're parents, you know, it'll be like two months. And then we'll be back doing it again. It's like, that's just not really realistic. So I think...
You know, the way that we approach things was like parenthood is going to change and rock our world in intense ways and amazing ways and loving ways. We can't really put a script on how it's going to go, but let's really just be in the moment with everything and also appreciate the beautiful chapter that parenting is.
and not try and sort of rush back into that non-monogamy sort of headspace earlier than what felt right for us, you know, just like surrendering into that. And I think sort of having that type of approach was really good for us. and just not putting too many expectations of it. And, you know, during the pregnancy as well, we actually were quite monogamous in that time, so we were open.
And then we sort of closed off during the pregnancy and then postpartum. And I think it was until around six months after, yeah, when our son was about six months, we started to sort of explore non-monogamy again as it felt right. I think a lot of criticism of like a nuclear family tends to be that it is rather isolating and it's difficult for people to have any sort of... identity outside of just the small...
sort of insular configuration that that sort of brings. But would you say being non-monogamous Has it been easier to sort of break free of that? Is it more a situation where it takes a village and you have the opportunity to have bits of co-parenting with multiple people than just the two of you? Well, yeah, for me, I feel like being non-monogamous actually makes me a better parent in a way that I feel that it feeds into our relationship. And ultimately, it actually kind of uplifts us.
as people and then that flows into the parenting. I think that is something actually that, going back to your question Dedica as well, is that it really surprised me that I didn't really have a perception of that before becoming a parent, that there would be a relationship between being a good parent and also being happily non-monogamous. and how they can both kind of really feed into each other
You know, for instance, often if one of us are going on a date, for example, when we're separately dating, we have an amazing date, we come back home, we're feeling energized, we're feeling ready to get into the chaos of home life. And it does give us a sense of... of a little bit of escapism, I guess, in some ways. And I think certainly Abby and I have chatted a lot about
For her as a mother, I think it's been amazing for her identity not to be just wrapped up in being a mother. There is this sense of she can be celebrated as her own whole self on top of being an incredible mother as well.
So this is getting ahead a little bit because I'm remembering that we got a lot of questions in particular. I didn't include a specific question about this in this episode, but... people really wonder and I think sometimes struggle with, but how do you resolve like the labor imbalance that can happen when it's like you're going out on a date and I'm at home with the kids?
Right. And especially if for a lot of people, it's not always a very balanced situation where like you have your outside partner and I have my outside partner. And so we can find a way to balance that equally. It might be I have.
a long established outside partner and you're just like going on first dates or you have very new relationships and so that those require like a different time commitment than the established partner so like what have you discovered about what's worked for that balance when one of you is out of the house Yeah, so I think when our son was a baby and I started, you know, when I sort of felt ready to venture out and have this separate dating again, it was very much like...
connecting in with a partner who was a previous partner from when before I became a mum. And it was really wonderful to connect in with him again.
I didn't feel like I wanted to sort of go out and date too often or anything like that. It was very much sort of as I was able to because it's like you know when you do have a baby and you are in that in that stage that newborn you know that young infant stage it's like i was so drawn to my you know to being with my son like that's actually where i wanted to be and for a long time like i only had my first night away from our son when he was two and a half years old.
And that was completely great for me because I didn't want to be away from him. You know, I wanted to be with him. And so for Liam to go out on a date and to see somebody is like... you know, I'm happy for him to do that and have that time, for him to have that time, because I'm also like, I actually wanted to be with our son. There are imbalances sometimes, but it's like I think it really depends on like how you're feeling with that and what you want.
And I didn't, you know, I was really happy with that. But Liam and I, we don't have, like we are non-monogamous and we have ongoing connections with people that can span for years and years. and still do. But I mean, we're not sort of polyamorous in the sense that we have, you know, very intense regular partners who we would see multiple times a week who would be really looking for this sort of...
shared sort of building of a life together. We're not that style of polyamory. So for us, There is kind of also a flexibility in that, which feels quite, you know, just sort of practical for how we are in our life. So that's not sort of something that comes up too much for us, I feel. Yeah, and ultimately it just comes down to communication. I think that there's definitely...
times where obviously resentment can happen. And of course that does happen. So if you're going out on a date, I think being aware that your partner could obviously have these feelings of resentment and they might start to rise and to almost approach that before the date even happens.
you know just ensuring good communication has really helped us because there's definitely been times where you know we've had a really intense busy week logistically with with our son and then it comes Friday night and the date has been on the calendar for quite a while and we have to kind of almost pre-chat about the feelings that we're going to feel after the date because there is probably going to be a little bit of lingering resentment of
Of, you know, I did all the drop-offs this week and now you're off having this crazy date, you know? But it's something that I think can be easily managed by just lots of communication. Over-communicating. Sure, of course. Well, with that, I'm going to transition us into our listener questions. But first, a quick disclaimer that we've spent a lot of time studying healthy relationship communication, but we're not perfect and we're not mind readers.
The advice given here is based solely on the limited information sent into us, so please take it with a grain of salt. Everybody's situation is unique. We encourage you to use your own judgment to seek professional help if needed. These questions have been edited for time and clarity. And then also a quick note that...
Some people sometimes submit their questions with just letters as a stand-in for somebody's name. And so we appreciate you making the effort to protect people's privacy. In an audio format, just using letters ends up being kind of difficult to understand. So I have subbed in some names for some of these questions.
If I accidentally got the real name, please don't get mad at me. 100%. None of these names are meant to be identifying. I just picked them at random to make the question easier to understand. There, that's the end of the disclaimer. So these questions come from our wonderful subscribers and our community. And this first question was the most popular question that we got. About 600 people asked this question. So it is, how do I talk to my kids about being non-monogamous?
And the context for this question is, I have been with my wife for 18 years, and we've been poly for two years. My wife, Janice, has dated some, but ultimately decided it's not what she needs right now. I met Shirley really quickly, and we've been dating for two years. Initially, my motivation for opening up was about sex, but after about six months, Janice and Shirley have met and it went well, but they don't hang out and we're not near kitchen tabling it.
Janice and I have a 12-year-old kiddo who knows that I have a friend named Shirley who she's met and we hang out about once a week. If I sleep over at Shirley's, I'll tell kiddo we're going out late and I'm going to stay the night for safety so I'm not driving home late. I don't know if we should come out to her now or later or if I want to or if it would be good for her or or or. What are the considerations when coming out to kids? What should I be asking myself? What's a good way to do it?
How do you keep your business from getting spread all over school without making your child keep a secret? And this is signed perplexed parents. Perplexed parent uses they them pronouns. Yes. Yes. Perplexed parent. A lot of people seem to be stuck at introducing a partner as like, quote unquote, mom's friend. And then not really sure where to go from there or, you know, so-and-so's friend. So give us some insight here.
Yes. Well, this is something that we actually talk about often because, you know, we're not at this stage yet of, you know, sharing with our son that we are non-monogamous. He's six years old.
what we're doing and I and of course everything is always in an age-appropriate time but you know sharing with our son and discussing relationships that they can look many different ways like you know our son has a queer auntie you know so we share about that there's many different ways to have a relationship they're in love you know there are some people that they have different partners We recently had a guest on our podcast who has two husbands.
After we had that chat with this person on our podcast, we said, We were talking to our son and we said, this lady, she actually has two husbands. And he said, wow, two husbands. That's so interesting. And, you know, just sort of normalising that. But I think for 12 years of age, you know, I think it would be very much... What I would probably do is just let the child lead the questions if they have any questions, just coming with those gentle answers.
in a way that actually still builds that sense of security in the relationship of the parents. Because I think as a child, you just want to know that everything's okay and there's not going to be a breakup. And I think around 12 years of age... you know they were probably you know in the school environment there would be other families that are going through breakups and
Of course, there is all of the conditioning with if there is somebody else on the scene, a new partner, that means a breakup must be coming. So I think first and foremost, coming at that place of we are in a stable relationship, we're happy, we're a family, we're a together family. We also are open to special connections with other people that are a little bit different to a friendship. And if you have any questions about that, you can always come and talk to me about it.
But of course, not getting, you know, I wouldn't go into talking about my sex life or anything like that because a child wouldn't want to hear about that.
I think there is also a difference in the way that we come out to adults and the way that we come out to children. And I know when we talked to Eli Sheff about this, she made some really wonderful points that allowing the child to lead the coming out is a really great way to do it so actually almost asking that the child for consent in a way of like Would you be interested in hearing about our relationship?
It's not a question of let's sit down at the dining room table and we're going to have this big revelation and then this kid has to kind of deal with this emotional landscape of everything. I think it's a really generous thing to do. especially for a kid who's entering their teenage years and is extremely sensitive to the dynamics of everything, not just their parents' relationship.
is to say, are you in a place where you feel like you want to receive this information? And how much of the information? Do you want to know everything? Do you want to know some of it? Do you just want to know a sprinkle? And then... But I think that the best thing to do is to, if they do say, I would actually like to know.
is to say, you can ask us anything. Like, obviously, if it's appropriate, we're not going to be sharing, you know, oversharing with you and we're going to share what we feel is appropriate as well. But if you do have questions, we are open to kind of fielding them for you. Do you have any anxieties about these ongoing conversations with your son? Like, do you have any questions that you dread that he's going to ask someday?
I think the biggest anxiety that we have with our son is not actually between his relationship with us and our relationship with him. We feel really strong in our connection with him. I think that anxiety actually comes from other people around him within his life, particularly at school. And for the stigma around open relationships and the stigma around anything that looks different to a heteronormative kind of relationship.
I think that is where a lot of the anxiety, when we talk about this together, is we think, oh my goodness, wouldn't it be awful if one of his kids said, you can't come to my house because your parents are... poly or your pants are non-monogamous I think that is is deeply sad and it is sadly something that that does happen but I think
the importance of talking about open relationships and non-monogamy and all the work that you do and all the work that we try to do to kind of normalize these conversations. I think hopefully that will filter down eventually to the parents of the kids at school and eventually from the parents to the kids. That actually perfectly sets up our next question, which is literally about that.
Yeah. So the follow up question, it was not actually a follow up question, but it could have been, which is how do you approach having conversations with other parents? for example, other parents at school, about non-monogamy. We have a lovely and inquisitive eight-year-old daughter who tends to pick up on things pretty quickly. We have our vague cover stories about hanging out with friends, but we also suspect at some point she will realize what's going on.
As we prepare for either telling her one day or having her find out, we've been a little bit hung up on one of the details. One of our concerns is for any parents of her friends that find out through her. Other parents may not be as understanding and may forbid her from hanging out with their kids or worse. We want to teach her to be authentic and as transparent as she wants to be with people, but also advise her that this information may not be conducive to her social life at school.
Just as easy as letting her know you probably don't want to share this with your friends. Or how can we communicate that when the time comes? And this is from Prognosticating in Portland. We also got a very similar version of this from Incredulous in Indiana. Lots of good sign-off names. Brilliant. Wow. Yeah, I would say with a situation like this,
you know, when sharing with the daughter about this, you know, she's curious, she's going to be picking up on things, you know, they're probably, they're having other partners around, she might be, you know, witnessing the affection that's happening. You know, children know, they do see, they do pick up on things.
I would say with the conversation, you know, not to sort of instill any fear or anything, but just say, you know, not everybody would sort of understand the care that we sort of have in our family for our different, for our partners or for our friends. So it is something to be aware of. If you are sharing with friends, they might have a bit of a reaction to it because they might not understand. They might not know many people that sort of have relationships in this way.
you know and if you want to talk to me about it please do you know and as liam said you know we can have the conversation and all of that But when it comes to the friends of parents, I mean, I... We're in a little bit of a different situation because we are out there. We are, you know, we're podcasting. We're sort of... People know, you know, people know in our sons in the school community. At school drop-off, I'm pretty sure.
No parent doesn't know that we've been on national TV talking about open relations. I wanted to ask about that. another layer of coming out right it's not just this is our personal life but this is also a little bit of our vocation as well yeah but in a way coming out in such a public way for us was actually easier than having really delicate discussions
with, you know, your child and then it kind of feeds into this gossip mill that can sometimes happen in the schoolyard. You know, all the parents kind of looking. I know Abby was at a coffee shop recently and there were some parents around from the school and she was like... you became paranoid that they were kind of looking over at you and kind of and you were like oh i bet they're talking about the fact i'm in an open relationship you know Yeah, yeah, that did happen.
I think it's Liam and I, we've sort of taken on this idea of like, we're sort of really going to own the narrative. We don't feel like we have anything to sort of be ashamed for about this.
you know with other parents you know if we're talking just sort of saying you know I mean we're in a different spot so I sort of say oh you know we do sort of have a podcast about this oh what's the podcast about that's sort of where we're at But I think, you know, just sort of if we are thinking about normalising it but letting people know it's like not going on about it or like it has to be a big announcement.
you know, I was with my other partner this weekend and then sort of waiting for someone to be like, oh, is that like, you know, your other, what does that mean, your other partner and sort of just mentioning it.
um you know in that way sort of owning the narrative because i think people can get very sort of caught up when there's like a secret that's sort of when it's this gossipy thing but when you're just sort of you know you're standing in your truth with it if you can not everybody can that's the thing so that can be that can be very tricky But I think as far as the daughter just sort of explaining that, you know, not everybody will connect and understand and that that's okay.
doesn't mean that there's anything wrong that's happening. There's nothing wrong or unethical or hurtful or harmful, you know, really sort of instill that. But even though that it's not that way, people might still have a little reaction to it as well. and that if you know to the friend if the friend is saying different things
to say to the daughter, let your friends, parents, they can come and talk to me or, you know, would you like me to reach out to them and just let them know that everything's okay. And one thing, if I can jump off that, one thing that I think is really important and maybe it's a more to... broader comment on parenting in general.
But we have this kind of tendency, and we often feel this pull as well, is to wrap our kids in bubble wrap and like no negative thing can possibly be said around them. And then there runs the risk of actually not building resilience in your child. Our children are going to have difficult conversations with their friends, not about our relationship, but just in general.
And I think if you come to accept that, you know, at some point our kids are going to have difficult conversations, we can give them all the tools, hopefully, that they can go into those conversations and communicate it beautifully and, you know, in good faith.
I think they will be able to have these conversations about, you know, if the parents are in the schoolyard talking about non-monogamous other parents, they can go, oh, well, you know, everyone's different and, you know, there's different ways to have relationships. Right. I think as adults, at least, and I understand that I'm coming at this from that lens, we can sort of understand and recognize who is safe to speak about a certain thing and who isn't necessarily.
And I don't know if that's also something that... Children can perceive or understand from a young age that, oh, this person has two moms, for instance, and so they may be more open to the idea of something non-normative. and therefore they are safer to come to or talk about more openly about this kind of thing. I mean, that becomes challenging potentially because, of course... As adults, we do also have to navigate the fact that some people are safer than others.
Some people we do choose to be out towards and others we don't. But it's just interesting having a young person potentially have to navigate that as well. But also what kind of lessons can be learned from having to do that. Yeah, well, something that we've found when we're coming out to other parents, is that often the parents that you don't think would be receptive to something like this are actually the parents who are really receptive. And our compass for knowing that...
is probably as off as our child's compass. Fascinating. It's actually so difficult. We've come out to people who are deeply religious across all faith. And they have been some of the most accepting people. And these are the people that we are actually most afraid to talk to, in particular, parents of friends of our son. You know, if we can kind of come out in those situations and then be received with love and kindness.
It does make you question, like, even if you approach any conversation with anyone in the appropriate way, is everyone a safe person? Now, of course, obviously there's people that are less safe than others for sure. But I think if you trust your intuition, potentially that's a good guiding mechanism, but ultimately you might be surprised about who receives it.
I definitely had that experience with my own coming out as well. Initially, I was surprised by some of the people I thought would be cool with it who were like a little bit weird. Not bad, bad, but just a little weird. And others that I thought would be weird were totally cool with it. So, yeah. Yeah. Not always what you expect.
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This is an exclusive offer that is specific to this podcast, and it's better than any offer that is currently available on their site. So again, use code MULTI to get you not just the 50% discount, but also the 100% free shipping. Code MULTI. Well, I'm going to move us on to the next question, which is how do I be a mom and date? My wife and I have two kids, six, and the way they've written it is less than one.
Six and less than one. Six and less of one. I'd label her description of herself as some kind of gray ace, and for the past five-ish years, we haven't had a sexual relationship. I'm an introverted demisexual with a high sex drive, which is tricky to begin with, but doesn't go great with a non-sexual anchor relationship. I adore our relationship as it is, but I also want to keep exploring sex somewhere in my life.
We're both Polly in theory, but neither of us has ever had much of a relationship with other people. I've been trying to get out and meet people, but it feels so hard. It's hard to find time, to find energy, and to get in the headspace. I don't know how to get out of parent mode and go on a date. And so much of dating involves texting and messaging, which I feel like I can't do from the couch while my kid is watching Mickey Mouse. My head is in the wrong place.
Also, I'm breadwinner mom, and she's full-time mom, so any non-work time I spend not momming feels a bit unfair. How do you square things so you can be a parent and take time just for yourself without unfairly depending on a partner to carry your share of parenting for you? That was sent in by wanting more in Western Massachusetts. Wow. Yeah.
I really connect with this. There is definitely, you know, when you're a parent, you can feel you're so caught up, you're so busy, there's so much happening. And it's like, it's in your head, it's sort of all over you. And also that feeling of being super touched out as well with kids, you know, they're just constantly sort of... You're always tending to them. There's the hugs, especially with a baby that is less than one. You know, it's very, very full on.
You know, I think for me, I, you know, I mean, I can only sort of think back to my sort of own experiences with this and sort of how I navigated things. But I remember, you know, when our baby was, you know, when he was one. around that time just holding him so much and being so involved and so in that headspace where it really is tunnel vision and you're very, very tired and you're very, you know, you're giving so much to your baby who you love so much and you want to be doing that.
There is that thing. It's very hard to kind of switch zones and immediately sort of come into this sexual place and all of that. And I think something that was really important to me was... trying to actually, instead of walking from, you know, putting on like one you know, one sort of outfit or
persona of who you are as a parent and then stepping into the sexual space or the dating space was actually really valuing some decompression time as well you know if you can but actually you know, scheduling that in as if it is you know as if it were its own date you know actually having a bit of that time for yourself because it's like just going from that you're in that narnia in the wardrobe and then straight into the other world and just having a bit of a having a bit of like buffer
you know, in between to sort of centre yourself and exhale. You know, you have to have that time to sort of exhale.
to then be able to step into the new space and you know as far as sort of navigating and balancing that with another partner as well which you know has sort of different needs and is a you know coming from a really different place with this I think gosh we say it you know all the time but communicate so much about that but also what it what it means and what you know what how would this also be energizing to the relationship as well and what would dating somebody else
you know how could that look then coming back into the family life you know as liam said earlier it's like you know being non-monogamous can be incredibly energizing and it's like that beautiful energy of being seen as a sort of person beyond sort of in that family parenting role can bring such an aliveness and excitement that when you then come back home into that space, you can be so much more sort of energized and uplifted as well.
Of course, it's that balance because it's not always perfect and we're not always going to be feeling like... It's that and there will be difficulties and resentments and things, but I think there's definitely a way to sort of to navigate that. And there's also a way as a supporting partner as well to really make sure that you can support the mother, obviously in this situation.
There's two mothers. But I think, especially with this particular question, there is that kind of difference in desires for sexual connection, I think, which the question asker kind of spoke to. And I think so, you know, if you are the person who doesn't have that really high sex drive and your partner does want to go out and date, there is a way as a partner that you can support that.
I think, and that's something certainly that I felt really strongly about when Abby was starting to explore again as a mother, explore non-monogamy.
i really wanted her to kind of feel supported and to alleviate any kind of shame that could potentially come up you know i didn't want abby to to feel oh my goodness like i'm a bad mother now because i'm taking a moment for myself you know self-care can look different it can look like going on a date it can look like going to the movies by yourself there's so many different ways to do it
But I think as a partner to support that and to try and alleviate any guilt that is probably going to come up for the mother, you know, I think that's really important as well. This is making me think about some experiences I had when my best friend and his wife had a kid. And this was during the pandemic as well. They had their kid like the year before, right? So their childcare all disappeared. All of this happened all at once.
And, you know, I was trying to, one, you know, get to see my godson a lot, and then also to help out and realize, like... They were in a tough situation, and my work had been cut way back because of the pandemic, so I was trying to go over there. But I remember that, especially the mom, she would really struggle sometimes to let herself...
Like, I remember I was over there and we were playing with the baby together. And then at one point she was like, I'm so sorry, but could you please watch him for just a second so I can go pee? Because I haven't in six hours or, you know, whatever it is. I was just like, yeah, of course. That's why I'm here. That's part of why I'm here. Yes, absolutely. But I think that there can be so much of that sense of guilt, even in that short-term kind of like...
stepping away for even a moment means I'm failing or I couldn't possibly like foist this on somebody else to have to take care of this kid. And it's been kind of an ongoing thing with them of kind of needing to remind them both. Stay here and watch him for a second if you need to just like... eat or drink some water. I remember in the first year of our son's life, we were living in New York City and I'm a musician, I was playing a lot of gigs.
And so often I'd be away for like the whole weekend, basically out doing gigs and Abby would have friends come over to kind of look after our son just so she could have a shower, you know, because there's just, it's just so intense. You know, especially if you have that kind of balance where your partner's not around as much and unable to help all the time.
kind of the child rearing or it's in the pandemic or you know whatever the the circumstances might be there is so much bandwidth that gets taken up And maybe that's something that did surprise us as well. Like everyone tells us like, oh, just you wait, you know, when you have a kid, everything's going to change. And it's like, you can kind of conceptually kind of think about that.
you know looking forward but until you're like in the weeds and you're like on a bouncing ball in the shower you're running the shower because that's the only way your kid will go to sleep and you're wearing them in the front pack and then you know Abby's like trying to get you know half an hour sleep because she's got to get up in half an hour to do the breastfeeding and
And, you know, to then have the bandwidth on top to go, oh, let's be non-monogamous, you know, it's a lot. Well, I have a question about that. Because, Abby, you mentioned that for you, after your baby was born, it was around six months. that then you were like, okay, now I think I'm ready to explore and get back into this. And what was that moment like for you? Like, how did you know?
Well, the timing sort of worked out really well. So the person who I went on a date with was somebody who I had previously been dating before we were pregnant. And he had moved back overseas to London. And he happened to be back in New York. He was visiting. So it was sort of this, like, he's in town. We'd love to catch up.
And of course, we had a catch up, you know, with him and, you know, he met our baby, we went to the park and all of that. And then we were thinking, oh, well, you know, it would be great to have a date. But what would the logistics of that look like with a small baby who I'm breastfeeding on demand? So, you know, all the attachment, wearing him, holding him, skin to skin, all of this, you know, I just wanted to be with him all of the time.
And having the support of Liam was really fantastic because, you know, as Liam was talking before about sort of guilt and shame and concern that a parent can have to step away from their child. You know, Liam said, you know, everything will be fine. If you want to go on a date, I fully support you. But let's make this as anxiety-free as possible.
So I didn't want to be too far away from my son, you know, in case something came up or he needed me and just so that I could relax. So, you know, and this.
darling man who I was on the date with he was very understanding of everything and was so like flexible whatever works for you whatever so you know we're living in brooklyn of course there's like you know an apartment there's like a you know a bar very close by so you know i sort of got ready and did my last sort of breastfeeding Everything was very flexible timing-wise because you don't know what might come up.
So, you know, my date, he was close by, you know, at the bar waiting for me. And then, you know, did the last breastfeed, handed him, our son to Liam, and then went and enjoyed the date. And Liam said, look, don't check your phone. If there's anything wrong, I will call you. And if I can't get through to you, I'm going to call your date. So you just don't have to worry. Just be in the moment. Everything will be fine. We had an amazing time and it felt surreal. I was like...
Who am I? I'm dressed up. I've got makeup on. I'm nervous. I'm so excited to have this one-on-one time weekend. I don't have a baby on me. I don't have a baby on me. I was walking into the bar and I just felt... I just sort of had this connection to myself again. Not that I'm not myself as a mother. It's just like who, you know, I was having that taste of like what it was like before. And it was very empowering for me. And it was a very exciting moment. And I felt very nervous.
But then I was able to relax into it because I knew everything was fine. And I also wasn't having to navigate any sort of relationship issues around this with Liam. It was full encouragement because if there had been... One moment where Liam had said, or have fun or, okay, I guess, you know, enjoy, you know, we'll just be waiting. There are no, in no way would I have gone. Like, it's like mothers or parents, you know, you can already feel that guilt.
So there was none of that. There was just like, this is important for you, go. I've got this. So went and had the date and it was just amazing. And then Liam... darling Liam so sweet got the apartment already and then put our son in the front pack and took him for a walk at the you know we lived near Prospect Park so we took
you know our son for a walk around the park and he messaged and said he's going to be asleep now for a few hours if you do want to extend the date and go back up to the apartment that's totally great and it was just It just meant so much to me and it was really so wonderful to connect with my partner who I hadn't spent time with for a really long time.
And it was just like a really beautiful moment. And having all of that support from Liam just made it feel really positive and was just like this remembrance, this sort of awakening that it can be both things. I can be, you know.
mothering and fully in that world but it's actually it's okay to go and have those moments because everything was fine my child is totally well cared for by his parent and yeah it was just really exciting well i feel like my first takeaway is is to like co-parent with a liam like find a liam second thing i have the two of you dated anybody who hasn't been as like flexible and understanding
I would say no, but not in very obvious ways. But I think... some the reality of people's circumstances when they go into dating and sometimes it can be an age thing but it's not necessarily tied to age But often if we're dating someone who
um is younger and doesn't have kids or doesn't have many friends who have kids like they're at one point a few years ago i was dating a 25 year old and She was amazing, but it's one of those things where it's just not in their consciousness to think about what your life is like as a parent. So it can be really simple. It can be like,
hey, like in two hours, I'm going to this bar. Like, do you want to come on a date? Like, let's hang out. And we're thinking, of course we can't do that. Like, that's insanity. Like, we have so many things. We have to get a babysitter. We have to do, you know, there's so many moving parts.
that we have to kind of arrange into this perfect situation and scenario that we can kind of like... get away so there's really subtle things but I mean thankfully everyone has been so wonderful about us being parents and really supportive and understanding because In reality, a partner who doesn't have kids, who's dating someone who does have kids, they have to be a little bit more flexible and they have to be open to things coming up at the last minute. Like the kid's sick.
And it might not be an excuse just to get out of a date. Like the kid could actually be sick and you have to just drop everything. And I think in those pre-conversations, if we're dating people, you can sort of...
you can get a sense of where people are at and sort of what their expectations are as well. And that's also us seeing if we would be compatible with them and if they're compatible with us, because if somebody... is coming to us and they're saying, you know, okay, well, I'm polyamorous and this is sort of what I really need and I really need to feel, you know, prioritised sort of as much in the sense of like how you are like with Liam and your family.
you know, that I'm sort of can see you as much, you know, as often or things like that.
That would be not compatible for me. So very early on, I would pick up on that and sort of, you know, say, I'm not really sure if we're the right fit because... you know i am very tied in with my family life and i would love to see you when we can but also you know if you're you having your date your your other partners and your things going on and sort of an inner sense of security within yourself that if something comes up and a cancellation does happen that that's not going to
you know, sort of impact you in, you know, in a very upsetting way because as a parent, I can't, you can't promise that things won't come up, as Liam said, because they just do. Yeah, absolutely. I think Dedeker and I have experienced this with a lot of our friends. Like we've recently suddenly have a lot of friends with kids. It's that time of life. It's that chapter. And it's that thing of just sort of like...
Suddenly, we just always have to take our plans with a grain of salt because they could cancel last minute because of a kid being sick or... a kid having to run to the hospital or you know any number of things and then also at the same time being a little flexible where it's like Hey, we actually ended up stopping at this pizza place that's near where you live. We'll be there in half an hour. Feel free to join us if you can.
Being the more flexible one in that case, I was like, yeah, sure, I could drive over there for that. But yeah, needing to be a little more adaptable. So that makes a lot of sense that that same thing would apply in dating. I did want to... come back to this question here from Wanting More in Western Massachusetts before we go on to our last question of the day, which was, in this case, the question asker was saying that she is
the breadwinner mom, and that her wife is the full-time mom. And so for her, some of the guilt comes from that she's not already the one doing all of that. And so I wonder if there's maybe anything we could offer in that situation of like, is there anything that you could be doing or trying to facilitate for your partner so that they also get that time to themselves? Like they feel like they're also getting that even if they're not using that to go on a date and you are.
Yes, so with this situation, I think that breadwinner mum, even though her wife doesn't want to, you know, I think she doesn't want to date, it's sort of a different type of situation.
But that wouldn't necessarily mean that she wouldn't go and do something that was really special for herself. You know, go and take that time or go and spend some time with friends or have an activity or... you know just have a day to have like a you know rest in a park and read a book and all of these things that can seem very like simple and not a big deal but when you're a parent it actually is a really big deal so i think it's like
It's not so much whether it's like a date or not a date, but it's like, I value you and I value your time and I appreciate what you're doing. you know, raising children and being at home with the kids, like that is work. And I want to give you also some reprieve from that to do something that's for you because...
you know, the breadwinner mum is going to be going on a date and that is something that is for her. So it's like, it looks different. It's not the same because it's not the non-monogamous type situation, but it's like... It is time. It is self-care time. And so, you know, maybe offering that and like sort of almost prioritising that first.
And that was something that we did when we started dating again after I became, after we had our son, I started separate dating first again. And Liam really sort of encouraged that for me because I'm sort of in that different headspace to him. He's out working, he's gigging, he's having social connections.
more so than I am. I am, but with other sort of parent friends, but he's sort of more out in the world. So it was important for him to sort of help encourage me to sort of go out into the world before he went back into separate dating again. But also for the breadwinner, I think that's fantastic, but also for the breadwinner mum,
to also realize that her role as, you know, winning all the bread is an important one too. Like, she is still deserving of great, beautiful experiences. And I think if, I guess it goes back to the way you view relationships, but certainly in a... in a relationship like Abby and myself like we view everything as a team like we are working together as a team and of course there's going to be
times where you know someone's winning more bread or someone's you know doing more of the child rearing or there's more housework being done by someone and just knowing that it is a push and pull and there's always going to be some kind of disparity in all sorts of different things. So everyone is deserving. It's really just a way, as Abby said, of figuring out a way that everyone can feel appreciated in their own way.
Yeah, it makes me think of, you know, Eve Rodsky in her Fair Playbook. She talks about this concept of like... the four-hour vacation and this idea of like both partners slash parents working together to make sure that we're able to carve out like that each person has access to their own four-hour vacation essentially whether that happens once a week or like once a month or something like that and this idea that
You're both working together to make sure that each of you has access to this time that's set aside that's not just for catching up on the laundry and it's not for like, oh, I got to drag myself to the gym and it's not like I got to sit down and, you know. get this paperwork together or whatever that it truly is like this time to think about creative projects or do like really good self-care or dive into an activity or go on a date or things like that. And yeah, I think it's really important.
even if you don't have kids that like you're in partnerships where people care about that for you and that you care about that for the other person like that just seems really fundamental. I love that idea of the four-hour vacation. I feel like we should implement that. I think that's great for everyone to think about. It's fantastic.
Real quick before this next section, did you know that you can get ad-free early releases of this show, as well as access to monthly video processing groups and exclusive private channels on our Discord server? all by becoming a subscriber at a sliding scale, pay what you can price. If you go to multiamory.com slash join, you can read more, get access to that. We would love to have you as part of our community.
In the meantime, take a moment to check out the sponsors on this episode. If any of them seem interesting to you, use the promo codes or the links that we have in our episode description, because that also goes a long way to supporting this show. Alright, let's get into the final question of the day. How can we blend our families in a poly-friendly way? My partner and I have been single parenting our kids in different states for a few years.
And we're now living in the same state. As a queer and poly couple, we are comfortable doing things outside the norm. We're working on setting up non-traditional living situation where we'll be next door to each other, each with our respective kids. We want to get married and share co-parenting responsibilities while also having our own spaces.
Polyamory has been a great way to break out of default assumptions and build a life that meets our unique needs. However, both the mononormative resources around blending families and the examples I've seen of polyamorous married folks Raising kids assume that both parents are living with all the kids.
And the examples I've seen of polyamorous couples who are committed but have more separation and independence than the typical relationship escalator situation are almost never co-parenting together. We want the kids to feel the support of two parents. We want to be able to support each other in co-parenting decisions and tag team when things get tough. And we want to foster a positive relationship between all the step siblings.
But we also want to maintain some independence and autonomy in our relationship. Aside from the logistical considerations, what suggestions do you have for facilitating this non-traditional blending of families? And that's signed, we can share a life, but not a kitchen. It's very unique and specific. Yeah, well, I think this particular person and the person who asked this question, I think they're actually doing a lot of the work already.
Even in the question, it seems like they feel comfortable having this very non-traditional kind of approach.
And really, it might be a question of just making sure that they can remove as much stigma in their own mind from having this this sense of a non-traditional approach and also prepare their children for this non-traditional approach in the best way possible like before going into this kind of new living arrangement and the you know that That kind of thing is having those conversations that their kids are fully aware of the approach that the parents are going to be taking and the approach.
in which, you know, these are how the practical arrangements are going to work. So even if we're not sharing a kitchen... You know, we're going to all have, you know, lunches on Sundays or like there's going to be ways in which things get brought together if that's what people want. Or I think it is about having those conversations. But I feel like.
a lot of the things shared in that question, this person is already doing so much fantastic work about figuring out what they really want within their parenting structure, because it sounds extremely intentional.
I agree. Listening to that, I'm listening and I'm thinking I don't really hear what the sort of issue is around this. It sounds actually really lovely and pleasant. And, you know, I mean, as far as like practicalities, I think they said something about they want to like live next door from each other or something like that.
I mean, my mind goes to that TV drama, Big Love, you know, where they've got the houses all across, but they have like the gates. Shared backyard or something. Yeah, they have like the shared backyards and things like that.
you know people often have asked us you know oh would you ever live with other partners or would you ever you know want to live in some sort of group situation and I've said You know, I wouldn't want to do that, but if we ever found ourselves in a situation where we were that close with other partners in this very sort of ongoing commitment.
That's quite, you know, intense and perhaps lifelong. Houses close by would sort of be the ideal as people who feel very independent. And I think that actually this situation sounds really amazing for this.
for this setup as well because for the relationship it's so lovely to have that space where they can sort of come and go and not be fully in the domestication of each other's life and the domestication with each other's children as well it's like they can sort of come together and have those family times and have that sense of being together, but also having that distance and having that space is like...
Isn't that sort of like the perfect balance of like desire and family life as well? I don't know. I think it sounds pretty good. Yeah, I remember years ago when I was a hairstylist, I had some clients that were a heterosexual couple and their daughter. They were all my clients. But I learned just through the conversations you have as a hairstylist.
that they lived separate from each other, like down the street. So it was kind of that same, like the daughter, and the daughter was, I think, like a young teenager or something. So old enough to be able to walk herself, you know, between the two houses. And I just remember for me at the time, this would have been back in like 2008 or something like that, that it was kind of this.
I've never heard of anyone doing something like that. And it sounds really nice. It sounds really cool. You guys have got something nice going on here. And they were also very intentional about it.
I don't know if non-monogamy was part of that equation or not. That was not something they shared with me. But... I remember just being so struck by how interesting and cool of a setup that is, that they were both able to kind of have their space that they wanted, but still create this environment for their daughter where... It's like, oh, but my family's all here. It's not quite like what I experienced.
you know as a child of divorce where it's like oh well spend these two months in the summer with dad across the country and then you know the school year with mom on the other side of the country that instead it's like oh you've got the two houses but they feel more i guess unified in a way or more connected because they're so close to each other Yeah, I find myself a little frustrated that I always wish that there were more resources specifically about the living apart together phenomenon.
I think there's some reasons why there's not so many resources. One of them being that like, depending on where you live, it's just like not financially viable for some people to have two homes, which is unfortunate. And that's a much bigger systemic issue because I really think that this is a really wonderful way for some people to do things. And then I'm realizing like there is a subreddit specifically for living apart together, but I'm realizing like many subreddits.
tend to go it's a lot of people who it sounds like this has been imposed on them actually like one per partner's like really jazzed about living apart together the other person's not it seems to i'm seeing some parallels with the way that some non-monogamy subreddits can go I mean, Reddit is an exciting place, the best of times. Exciting is a word for it. Yeah, but it's also the way in which we view kind of non-monogamous, kind of non-traditional relationships as well, because I think...
As you were saying, Jase, like there's so many children of... of divorce and we're seeing this with our son's parents like with our son's friends parents like a lot of them are getting divorced now and so they are actually in these arrangements where they're staying with one parent for a week and then another parent for another week.
And it's like, from the outside, someone might look at this person who asked this question as like, this is crazy, like they're non-monogamous and they've got separate houses and they're co-parenting and doing all these things. But actually, that's a beautifully supportive way to do it when it's extremely intentional.
You know, the irony is if you just flip this all around, you know, like there is actually so much strength that can come from, as all of us have been saying, from this particular situation and so many beautiful things that this question asker might come across.
Yeah, so many of us just didn't have the opportunity to constantly be around adults that kind of enriched our lives at all times. And I think the opportunity... to not only get to see two people who are intentional about the ways in which they communicate but also the fact that they can hold time for themselves and be autonomous and be independent individuals. I think a lot of people who are in family relationships don't get that either. They see everything as a unit.
And so having sort of role models for that is also really extraordinary and something so unique and maybe something that we'll continue to see more of as time goes on. And in this situation, keeping in mind that each of these people has their own kids. And so I could also see this.
being great for those kids too to be able to blend that family but not like oh now I suddenly have this new sibling that's sharing a room with me which i think is kind of the typical story of people marrying and they both have kids it's like oh great now i have this sibling that i've
haven't spent my life getting to know and now suddenly they're living up in my space and kind of forcing that on your kids too. I can see for them this is like the most amazing thing you could possibly do for them to keep their own space.
Yeah, I think the most difficult part of this whole question actually comes in finding a place right next to another place that is both for sale you know like the that just seems like such an impossibility to me and and you know as he was saying dedicated it's like There is like a lot of, to have that living arrangement that's so inaccessible for so many people that if you do have the privilege to be able to have that arrangement, that's a beautiful thing in and of itself, you know?
Well, as we wrap up here, first of all, to our listeners, You're a non-monogamous parent and you're looking for more resources, we want to direct you to a couple of episodes in our back catalog as a place to start. So if you go all the way back to episode 171, that was when we first had a conversation with Dr. Eli Sheff. So that was called Polyamory Family and Children.
You can go back to episode 389. So that was another listener Q&A. That one's called Struggling with Honesty and NRE. But our special guest for that one was Libby Sinback, who runs the Making Polyamory Work podcast, who is also... a non-monogamous parent, and they talk about that a lot in that episode. Or you can go check out our episode 390, What It's Really Like to Be a Polyamorous Parent, with Jessica Daylover from Remodeled Love. And Abby and Liam...
Can you tell our listeners how they can also find more of you and your work? Wonderful. So, yes, we have the Evolving Love podcast. where we host lots of conversations with lots of fantastic people like yourselves who are recent guests on it as well. And then Abby also has a substack where she publishes all of her writing. And you can find that at evolvingloveproject.substack.
Also have an Instagram page, Evolving Love Project as well. So for little shorter things that we share there. And yeah, we also have a little meetup group in Canberra once a month and in Sydney as well. and different things going on too. So, yeah.
Okay, excellent. Thank you so much for joining us for this and helping us out answering these questions that are really difficult for those of us without children to answer. It was a pleasure to come and chat with you. Great as always. Thanks so much for having us on. And we want to hear from you listeners on our Instagram stories this week. We're asking the question, if you are non-monogamous and also parenting at the same time, what has surprised you?
So again, you can go answer that on our Instagram stories at Multiamory underscore podcast. Also, the best place to share your thoughts with other listeners about this episode is in our episode discussion channel in our Discord server, or you can post about it in our private Facebook group. We also have a members only channel specifically for parenting and one for family talk as well. We'll see you next time.
is Forms I Know I Did by Josh and Anand from the Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is available on this episode's page on multiamory.com.