Music. Welcome to Mr. and Mrs. Therapy, the podcast that empowers you to transform life's challenges into opportunities for personal growth and healthier relationships. We're your hosts, Tim and Ruth Olson, licensed marriage and family therapists and trauma experts. As experienced therapists with backgrounds in addressing trauma and mental health disorders, we believe there is hope and there certainly is healing.
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Hi everyone, welcome to the podcast. We're very excited to have you guys here with us today. Now what we're going to be discussing is how a lot of times couples run into major problems because when they have disagreements, they're seeking and trying to fight for absolute victory in the conflict.
And I think this ends up causing major problems because there's no reason for the other side to kind of cede the fight, to give up the fight if they have to give up everything and give the other person everything. And so then at that point, it's like, well, why not keep fighting? Why wouldn't I just keep fighting until the bitter end?
And so obviously, if that's a part of the mentality, what's going to happen is that the conflicts are going to have a tendency to be way more heated, last way longer, and then not really end up having any type of real good healthy conclusion. And so what we're going to be talking about is what are some of the pitfalls that lead us towards seeking absolute victory? Also, what are some alternatives instead of trying to win arguments?
And some practical tools that can help you from going scorched earth with each other when you're getting into a conflict. So this idea of trying to get absolute victory in every single argument makes me just think of the idea of winning the battle but losing the war. And so you may have won that small victory in your mind, but really it's at the expense of a larger defeat. And so if this keeps happening over time, there are consequences to pay in your marriage.
And really, the first thing you want to do is what is driving that for you? And it may be different for every person. I think one of the reasons might be control, that you really do want to control your partner. You're trying to control the outcome of everything. And so it's kind of that idea of my way, the highway.
And I think however you couch it, whenever you're trying to control somebody, even if it's for somebody's benefit, you're automatically going to run into more deep resistance from the other person. As opposed to trying to work with them to get them to see your perspective. And so, again, you can have good motivation, but a lot of times that impulse is going to cause you to actually run into more resistance and actually remove control from you.
And I think when you try to control things, you may be creating something that you don't really want. And so if you are trying to control the situation and that happens often. Then sooner or later your partner is going to kind of back off and either not give their opinion or not even engage in the discussion because they're going to start to feel like, well, my opinion really doesn't matter anyway. They're going to do what they want.
They're going to make whatever decision they kind of already have in their mind. And then down the road, you're going to be frustrated because you feel like they're never giving their input. Or a lot of times this is where I see that cycle happening in marriages and in new relationships where the wife feels like, well, he's really passive. He doesn't really even say anything.
Part of that is because of the environment that you created by not making it a safe place for them to share their opinions. And I think that's a really important factor is that everybody has a different level of tolerance for conflict. Some people are more comfortable with it and some people are less comfortable with it. And so a lot of times people who are more comfortable with conflict don't even realize that they're shutting other people out because Because they are more
comfortable in that conflict. They're willing to keep it going. And sometimes people even view it almost like a game. Like, oh, it's fun. We're bantering back and forth. But for people who have a much lower tolerance for conflict, they view it as constant disrespect or just this uncomfortable constant battle. And they just want to exit that as quickly as they can. And now I think there's two problems here, right? One person who is overly comfortable with conflict.
They could stand to probably rein that in a little bit. But then the people who are uncomfortable with conflict. Conflict is a part of life and they have to learn to cope with it to a certain degree, not necessarily to enjoy it, but be willing to engage in it so that then they don't end up being bitter and then they don't have to deal with people or life just pushing them around into a position that they didn't want to be in.
And I can see how even those differences in our relationship can cause conflict sometimes, how even the differences in maybe not conflict comfortable, but the difference in the way that we even communicate or how, when I'm making a decision. The way that I make a decision is so different from you. And so I want all the input from you and I wanna discuss and brainstorm and bring all the different information to the table.
And so every time that I have a new piece of information, if we've already discussed something and you've given me your opinion and you've kind of made a decision and then I get more information down the road so then I bring it back to you because then now I wanna process and discuss this new piece of information and how it maybe changes the dynamic of things.
That could be really frustrating for you because you feel like, well, I've already made a decision or I've already told you my thoughts on this and you're wanting to discuss it again. Or maybe you see it as me not respecting the decision you've already made. But in my mind, I'm like, OK, there's a new piece of information. Let's talk about it again. Oh, for sure. And I think two things are kind of happening there.
One is that I only have a certain number of words and it tends to be a lot less words than you. And so then when I have to reuse words on something that I feel like I've already done my expenditure on, it feels like a waste of time or effort to me. And that can be frustrating. But then another thing, and this is kind of a hard position for you, is sometimes that new information will feel relevant to me. And I'll be like, oh, actually, that's a really good piece.
But then there's other parts where it doesn't feel relevant or it doesn't feel like it changes the scenario at all. And so then that can feel like a drain on my emotional resource. Then I'm more likely to get frustrated about it. And so that does put you in a difficult position where you wouldn't know which information would feel to me relevant to bring up or reopen that discussion again.
But then also, there's not really a parameter I can give you to say, oh, hey, this type of information would be stuff that's relevant. This stuff isn't. Oh, for sure. And I think the reason I bring it up is that every time I bring up, in your mind, kind of the same conversation, it could feel to you like I'm trying to win this argument by continuing to discuss it and almost convince you of making a different decision, where in my mind, that's not the case. I'm not trying to win this argument.
We just have such different decision-making processes or strategies. And so I know that we've run into that conflict before where it felt to you like I was trying to convince you and change your decision. But in my mind, I'm like, oh, there's a new piece of information. I want to make sure that I process it out loud and talk with you about it before I make a final decision.
Yeah, and I think it depends on the situation. But I do think sometimes when you're bringing a new piece of information after a new piece of information, it does almost feel like you have a different conclusion you want me to draw and then it almost feels like you're kind of badgering me into that position without fully saying what it is that you want now i know at the end of it that's not what your intent is but a lot of times it's hard to interpret that because like why do we keep
talking about this again why does this keep coming up again like we already talked about we already came to a conclusion and in those situations too I think a part of it is because you are a collaborative processor, you do want to talk it out with other people. You have almost unlimited resources to keep that conversation going versus for me, I don't have unlimited resources.
And so each new foray talking into the same discussion that we had, even though there's additional information, drains me more on that subject. And so I'm more likely or more apt to get frustrated continuing that discussion more. Yeah, and I think for you, you are kind of that final decision maker where I want all the information, I want to talk about it, and then I want to make a decision and be done with it, even if you don't necessarily see all the different options.
Whereas for me, I want to see all the different options before I make that final decision. For you, you kind of scroll through and you're like, okay, I see something I like, I see the decision I want to make, and that's it. And so I think there's so much benefit to being such a confident decision maker like you are. But because we have such different decision making processes, we certainly can run into problems along the way.
And so one of the drives on seeking absolute victory could be control and you seeking that. But it could be what we just talked about, just the differences in the way that you argue and the differences that you make decisions or communicate things. And I think another drive for absolute victory in different arguments could be insecurity. Oh, yeah. I think insecurity is a big problem with arguments. And the reason why is because people want validation that their thought process is correct.
And finding out that they might be incorrect oftentimes can be a bridge too far where it feels so uncomfortable to be incorrect even if it's a very clear idea of being incorrect.
There's this idea in social psychology it's called tribalism and essentially tribalism has to do with you wanting to be on the in with the in crowd with your group of people and so you want to agree with them and you want them to agree with you and it makes you feel more safe but ultimately a lot of times what that does end up turning into is needing almost this absolute conformity and uniformity in thought.
And not allowing people to have difference of opinions. Actually, this is such an interesting thing just on the internet. It's so interesting watching people share their opinions, and then people just arguing and arguing and arguing and arguing with each other about opinions. And what that really is, it's this spike of tribalism. I need you to agree with me because I am insecure with my own opinion, as opposed to, hey, that sounds like a fine opinion.
I have a different one, though, and then leaving it at that. And so I think a lot of times, especially in a relationship, being in disagreement on anything can cause a lot of spats of insecurity that then can cause you to then seek for and argue for and try to gain total victory in that argument. Yeah, and I think sometimes there are decisions that are to be made where you have to come together and make a final decision.
But I think a lot of arguments are over just these opinions, and you don't necessarily have to make a decision, but it could feel uncomfortable for you guys to be on different sides and for you not to agree on everything. But you have to understand that that's okay to have different opinions and to not agree on everything. Obviously, on the major things, you guys want to be in agreement, but it's okay to have differences of opinion on everyday topics that you're talking about.
Oh, for sure. And I think a lot of times getting to the same place oftentimes requires a lot of different discussions, but also people will view it as, oh, if I don't win this battle, that means the war is lost, as opposed to, hey, this is going to be maybe a little skirmish on this topic. We're going to talk a little bit about it. Maybe we'll share some difference
of opinions. companions but I think something that people miss a lot is that the harder they press into an argument a lot of times what they're going to get is more and more resistance and the more frustrated you make your partner trying to get them to agree with you the more they might just disagree with you out of spite and you may be thinking like well then that just means that they're a bad person well I will just tell you that that is just human dynamics it doesn't mean they're
a bad person it means you are pressing them into a corner and basically anybody is going to fight when they feel pressed into a corner. And so you don't want to be triggering off almost this naturalistic human instinct to resist being controlled. Oh, yeah. And I think that does go back to what we just talked about, about that drive to control and how really that could backfire on you. Okay, let's talk about the impact and the pitfalls of seeking that absolute victory in arguments.
So when we were talking about the drives behind that need to win, we talked a little bit about the pitfalls and how that can impact your relationship. And one of that is that cycle of that control, how you're trying to control the person, and then eventually they back off. And then you're like, well, why are they so distant? Or why is he not leading? Or whatever the case. And I think that's clearly one of the impacts that happens on relationship dynamics.
I think another one of the cycles that happens is this retaliation or revenge. And that's kind Kind of what you were just talking about, how when you're backed into a corner, you're now going to just push back, whether it's out of protection or out of retaliation, like you're not going to tell me what to do. And so you kind of push back and push back. Or I'm going to give them a taste of their own medicine. And so because they think that you're argumentative, they become argumentative as well.
Or they might express it in passive aggressive ways. And I'd say that would be a pretty common way because if they are somebody who is more conflict uncomfortable, then they're going to get their pound of flesh one way or another. But it might be through eye rolling or slow to follow instructions or maybe even doing something in a way that they know you don't like it done that way.
But then they're going to do it that way anyways, just to kind of get a little bit of revenge on you for what has happened. And the truth is, people really are driven a lot by their emotions.
And if you are poking and prodding and you're hurting somebody, even if, again, you're doing it in a conflict and you think you're being justified in what you're saying or what you're doing, that person is not going to just be like, okay, well, they're justified, so I'm going to ignore all the hurt and pain that they just gave me. People's brains kind of has this tendency to try to balance out that injustice.
Even if they're viewing it incorrectly as injustice, if their brain perceives it as injustice, they're going to come back at you, maybe not directly the way that you did with them, but indirectly, they're going to try to balance out those scales.
Yeah. And speaking of passive aggressiveness, I think what happens is, say you have this argument, and then down the road, you find out the other person is wrong, and you come back and you're You're sarcastic or you're passive aggressive or maybe even just very clearly, maybe it's not passive aggressive, but you come back and you have to make sure that they know that they are wrong or you make some sarcastic comment about how they are wrong or see, I told you so.
Those are all things that can negatively impact then future communications or future arguments because that person doesn't feel safe with you. You're not making it easy for someone to be wrong. That will just cause a different cycle to happen where maybe it came to light that they were wrong, but they're no longer going to trust you or be open about that.
And they're actually more likely to hide that from you because no one wants to be told, see, I told you so, or kind of rubbed in your face that you were wrong. And so instead of creating this open communication and this safe trusting environment, people begin to hide information. And it may not even be something serious or big, but there's a tendency to now not share openly. And I think what that comes down to is that there's been a culture of shame created in the relationship.
And so then when that shame gets in, then it is going to boil down to, just like you were saying, just avoiding sharing or revealing small indiscretions and things like that because you're afraid of what the blowback is going to be. And so some of the long-term consequences are now just a bigger version of everything we just talked about. And so there's some emotional distancing, loss of intimacy. And over time, that can pile up and add on and just really contribute to the
breakdown of the marriage overall. Oh, yeah. And I think, too, one thing that people really dismiss and they don't understand how it happens is that this stuff builds up over time. And so you may be thinking like, oh, well, this may have happened and this was a bad interaction and we didn't resolve it. But now it seems like everything went back to normal.
But things didn't really go back to normal. What has happened now is that there is this release mechanism that every time that thing gets triggered off, it releases the emotions from this one new situation that happened, plus the other bad situation that happened that's connected with it. And then when it happens a hundred more times, eventually you get this tidal wave of emotions that comes out. And then all of a sudden it feels like your partner is being irrational.
Why are they acting this way? Why are they behaving this way when they are actually reacting to the culmination of all of those negative interactions? connections. And so I think a lot of times people get surprised or shocked. Why are people reacting so poorly in what seems like such a minor situation?
But it's because of that buildup over time. And this is one of the things that I think are silent killers of relationships is feeling like, oh, we are now back to normal or we kind of got over it, even though we didn't resolve it. But in order to not have that tidal wave release, you do actually have to resolve your conflicts each time they come up and try to come up with a new way of engaging with each other.
So it doesn't come up again because it just makes it worse and worse and worse as the years and decades roll on in a relationship. All right, you guys, we're going to stop there for today's episode. And hopefully you can understand and see why absolute victory in arguments really isn't beneficial and really isn't winning the overall war. It's really achieving that small victory in your mind at the expense of that larger defeat.
And so stay tuned to the next episode. And we're going to talk about healthy alternatives to really trying to win every single argument. and then we're going to talk about practical tools and strategies and how to implement that in your marriage. All right, you guys have a great day and remember, your mind is a powerful thing. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Mr. and Mrs. Therapy. We hope that you enjoyed today's episode and found it helpful.
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