Oscar Movie Roundtable: Marriage Story

seeing Songhaim here in a minute. So Marriage Story is a movie directed and written by the great Noah Bombach, one of my favorite filmmakers ever since I was in college. And he made Kicking and Screaming, and then another movie called Mr. Jealousy, which didn't perform super well and was just okay. Then he took a very long break in his career before coming back strong with Squid in the Whale, and it's just been to me on a tear since then,

like one of the great filmmakers of our of my generation. Uh, but what do I know? I watched one of movies so uh it stars Well, I mean, we'll get through the whole cast, but obviously Scarlett Johansson and Adam Driver are the leads. Um who was the kid. What was his name? I don't know that kid's name actually, other than that he looks like Danny Lloyd from The Shining He was good. Yeah. I thought he did a good job.

They didn't ask too much of them. They didn't need like Cramer versus Kramer level uh emotion out of this kid, but I think they used them. Fine. Uh, so let's talk about it. What do you think? Who's first? So I'm going to start with the disclaimer that I watched this on Netflix. I didn't see in theaters. Okay, alright, cool, Um too, I'm the only one here who had the theatrical experience at this movie. Okay, okay, cool some maybe

you'll have a different, more theatrical take. Um. And I went in very nervous because the kind of general consensus around the movie was just going to break your heart. It's going to be really gut wrenching. Um. And I actually found it less good gut wrenching than I thought it was gonna be. I did really enjoy it here. Yeah, I thought it was pretty fair. Inevitably, everybody was taking aside of who they thought was right. I think kind of misses the point. Um. But I thought that it

was pretty fair and the performances were amazing. Um, let's talk about who was right. That's an interesting thread. Oh my gosh, so many people chose, you know, team Nicole, team Charlie. What team are you on? Uh? Well, like I said, I feel like it's pretty far. I'm slightly more Team Nicole, but I love and I know we're

going to get into this. One of my favorite things when I was reading reviews about this is so many people call out Laura Dern and when she's like God, women are judged so much more harshly and it goes all back to the Bible. So many people call out that scene, and the very next thing they write is Adam Driver's character is a great father and he had so many chances to cheat and he did. It. Isn't

that great? It was like what I know he did eventually, but he had all those right when he was yeah, right, right, right, right right. You should never be congratulated for not doing something awful right that stupid? Yeah, just the incongruents in that in those kind of reviews of where they were doing the very same thing that they were calling out, Like Laura Durn, she's still right, she's speaking true to power,

but look, he didn't cheat for all these years. I mean, do you do you think the way that structured in the film those two scenes, do you think the film was aware that it was Do you think it was sort of making a comment on that itself, or do you think the film might have even been blind to

what it was doing there? Oh? I think I hope that the film was aware of that, especially because there is it's not autobiographical, but there is uh that kind of really can't ignore what happened in real life, right, So I would assume that there's a self awareness there that at one time maybe uh no, bomb Black had been that way, but he had come to realize the error. So before we get see whose teams you were on? Uh, I did read a lot about the personal side of it,

and he said he very much said that. He said, it's personal, not autobiographical. He said, obvious, See, I went through a divorce. I'm a director, My wife's an actor. Ex wife's and actor and current wife as an actor. But they're married now right Yeah, Okay, well I don't know if they're married, but they're together certainly like they had a kid. Yeah, But he said that what most of the actual plot and details came from was him

talking to divorce attorneys and therapists. He said, he really started making calls and interviewing these people, and that's where all that stuff. So I think if you read it like, oh, well he did this in the movie, so that's what they did in real life, I don't think that's the

case at all. Yeah, apparently whose team are you on? Uh? Emotionally, I'd probably lean a little bit towards Team Nicole, But like Annie said, I do think taking sides sort of it's like it's like in the movie, it's what the system wants you to do, is say one person is more right than the other, and it sort of misses the point that these are two people who both uh made mistakes and you know, if you want to take if you want to keep score and keep a tally

of you know, his mistakes versus her mistakes. Yes, I would probably think that he made more errors than she did. But I don't think that's that to me, that isn't necessarily a fruitful way to think about these because there are people, or at least they're based on people. He's too on. Yeah, No, I would say I'm not on anybody's team. I think there's fault on both sides. And you know, I think in terms of the way the actual the film functions, I feel like we get more

screen time with Charlie than we do with Nicole. So I think that alone makes you maybe prone to sympathizing with him a little bit more because it does feel more like it's told from his perspective a little bit. Um, you get more time, you get more sort of just what's going on in his head, what he's experiencing and

so on. But yeah, I mean if you look at all the points that she brings up in their relationship, in the way that he kind of took her for granted and didn't really see her as her own, like independent, full fully fleshed person, that she's more like an appendage to him. You know, she's there to lift him up and and sort of raised their child and and all this sort of thing. Um. Yeah, I mean he made some some some major errors in in the marriage certainly,

so in that sense, some te Nicole. But I just think that you know, to to look to assign the blame in these situations is not really the point. It's kind of like if it didn't work. It didn't work right, and it's best to just, um, move on, not hold onto that stuff. You know. Well, I think we're all in agreement then, I mean I clearly, especially someone who's been in a relationship for many, many, many many years. Now, Uh, you're both right and you're both wrong at times in

the movie, I think he had a lot of great points. Um. I thought it was not fair to abandoned New York and and all these little legal tricks like well she was born in l A. And so I was the kid, and I didn't think that was fair. But uh, he was also not fair, and that he was sort of one of those men that's so self consumed. That the promise of uh, yeah, we'll go back to l A one day, it was a lie and none of that was fair. So Emily and I we're both were vacillating

back and forth. And I think that is the whole point. They're both right a lot and they're both wrong a lot. And this is a very very fucking realistic take on not just marriage but relationships. I think with marriage there's uh, and that's why people get married. There are more stakes, um than just like dating with someone or even living together unless you are you know, firmly committed life partners, like you don't actually have to get married. I get that,

but um, it's it's real, man, it's real ship. When I feel like if if the film is pointing its finger at anybody, it's the system itself. It's it's the way that two people who have the intention of just an amicable separation, we're just gonna go our separate ways and we'll figure it out, and no big deal suddenly escalates into like the minute he starts talking to Relyota the first time, and Reallyota is seeing it from the perspective of somebody who's been there for decades and is

seeing how this stuff plays out. He doesn't have any time for cinamentality or like let's be nice. Yeah, he's just there for like, I'm gonna do the best I can to protect my client. And this move to l A is a big problem. And you know this, this, this is gonna be a huge problem. The lawyer is going to use this thing that you know, in reality

was innocuous but can be made to look sinister, etcetera, etcetera. Um, you know, and and and the the Charlie character is just sort of like, I don't like this, you know, that's why he goes and gets Alan Alda, who is a nicer guy. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like there's a scientific proof of mathematical proof proves that out. Yeah, so, um so I think that that, to me was the

most interesting part. Was was just seeing how, you know, even even two people with the best of intentions can get kind of caught up in this in this legal system. There's even a comment at one point where I forget which character says it, but they say, you know, the reason the system works that way is because there's a lot of bad people out there that are going to do a certain things. So it's set up to protect

against those really bad cases. And the problem is that if you have a more kind of pure intention, you're still going to be part of that system. That's kind of you know, you're guilty into you're proven innocent sort of thing. Yeah, what was alan All the lines about good people or criminals is deadbeat dads. It's said to

protect abused women from deadbeat dads left them. Right now, I'm talking about the line where he says criminals, you see bad people on their best criminal criminal lawyers see like the best and bade right right right, yeah, and that boy that really yeah kind of put a in

on it. Yeah yeah. And just the way that they that you know, Lord durn And and uh really and Ellen all that they can all kind of tell their clients at the beginning at the outset like yeah, you guys are talking now, but there's gonna be a point at which during this process you're not probably gonna be talking. You're gonna hate each other's guts, you know. And they think they're going to be the exception to the rule, but they're not. Do you guys know people that have

gotten divorced like appears, Yeah, yeah, it's tough. Uh, And you know, you hear the divorce rate. And when all of the friends get married, and in my case, there's like, oh, let's just say fifteen couples in my life and we all get married, and you start to wonder, like, if half of us are going to get divorced, he's gonna be first, who's going to be first, who's going to

be period? And everyone seems so solid And here I am, like fifteen years later, and there's in like four big divorces in our group for various reasons and you're like, oh, that's how it happens. It's just real life. Yeah, sometimes there's cheating, sometimes there's not. Yeah. I like, I felt like the movie did a really good job the way it opens, where they both are reading the letters of everything they love about each other, and the inflection in

their voices is pretty like hate. It's still kind of like love and fond and I think that was such a good tool because it set them up as both individual people that you could recall later like, oh, yeah, you know, maybe I really don't like this character right now, but I know they have all these good qualities. Takes it away immediately. But um, I thought that was really effective. And in the case of friends who get divorces, it's I don't know. I just felt like I could connect

with both people. Usually you can see why they loved each other, um, and then you can see why it sort of fell apart. And also that that opening you're

you're you're mentioning. I think also just from a filmmaking and sort of narrative standpoint, it's a really clever way to give you a lot of information about characters really efficiently, totally without having to do a ton of exposition, which I just tip my hat to, you know, a bomb box, yeah, or it's all exposition, but it just doesn't feel like it. It's not like the trophy phone call at the beginning

of the movie, you know. And I think it's indicative of the rest of the problem of their relationship is that there they went unread, they went uncommunicated, and it was just so brutal because you're like, you've as at the viewer got to hear it, and you're like, these are great, you want to hear this, and then but bringing it back at the end was just genius. It was like the perfect way to and just fucking devastating when he's like the kids reading it at first, right right,

oh my god, you can't even take it. And was sort of a a through line too with the kid and his reading and the way it all kind of

worked together like that, uh really worked. Yeah. The beginning I think is is really interesting because it feels, for a second, if you don't know this filmmaker or what this film is really going to be about, it feels like it could be the opening to like a rom com or something much lighter, fair, and so you're kind of like oh, this is kind of like light and funny, and these like little humorous observations of human behavior and so on, and then yeah, the ruggets pulled out from

underneath you immediately, And I mean it's kind of like yeah, and it's kind of like the marriage versus a divorce too, because it's the honeymoon period versus like when things get

really serious and and suddenly there's all these problems. And you know, if you if you listen to what the counselor who's played by Robert Swiegel, if you if you listen to what he's saying, he's basically telling them what they need to do, which is the point they arrive at at the end of the movie, after they've blown all this money on divorce lawyers. And you know, but but his kids advice to them at the beginning, if they could just take it, would have saved them all

this trouble. But you know that that's kind of the tragedy, is that the majority of people, it's one thing to tell somebody something you got to experience at firsthand. You know, they had they had to go through all that to arrive at this point where they could finally sit down and remember what they loved about each other in the beginning, and and just kind of make their peace with that, and and you know and say, Okay, it didn't work out, but we got married for all these good reasons, and

it's just life, you know. Yeah, there were so many gut punch moments. Um. The money. I mean, it's just had a stomachache about the kind of money they were spending on these blood suckers. If you if you look at you know something, I think that that could be. Uh, people have pointed this out. If you look at no Bombox filmography and the jobs he's taken, especially as a screenwriter, he the divorce begins, I believe in his real life divorce.

In he's credited with writing Madagascar three, which is you know, let's say a left turn a little bit. So you know, a lot of people have kind of inferred from that. He probably had some bills he needed to pay, you know. Yeah, I mean, I don't begrudge someone, no, not at all. I mean it's it's it's like like what happens with Charlie in the movie. It's like I had to direct to crappy plays to kind of you know, pay the bills. It's just to pay for a divorce. What happens. Yeah.

The other one of the other gut punches was, and I think you mentioned earlier Casey, when these things come back later and they use them against each other, it's just devastating, like with the innocuous moment when she has a little too much wine and stumbles and then they bring that up and and when we were both just going, oh god, no, no, it's uh. That's that scene when they're in the courtroom where it's Yoda and Laura Dern arguing with each other. For me, was probably the best

scene in the movie. And I know there's another great scene where it's well, we'll get to the three, yeah, the Big Three. But for me, that scene rang the most honest and true out of all of them, because, like you said, the way these innocuous moments get get brought back up and used as as weapons, and also the fact that they're not saying these things to each other, they have third parties arguing that about them in front of an audience, and in front of them they're just

sitting there. It's just awful to see. Yeah, And and it's kind of ironic too, because you know that Rayliota and Laura Dern are kind of like buddies. Yeah, exactly, Like when they first meet each other outside the courtroom, they're like, hey, how's it going. Yeah, like they have probably just for them, it's probably just fun to get in there and just battle with each other. And how

much though that this is sort of destroying these people's lives. Yeah, And it is like the moment that really hit me as far as it being more about these attorneys and their conquest was at the end when Laura Dern, and she's so good in this um, when she says, oh, you know, I got you, and she's like, I don't even want that. And Laura Dern wanted that. Nora the attorney wanted that so she could tout that to further clients or talk about it at whatever social club she

goes to. And it's just like the worst thing about attorneys. That's why we hate a journeys. But I mean, I think I think you could look at it a little more terriably. She just wanted the best, the most, the maximum for her client, you know, and and not even not even to get sentimental about it or not to you know, just to be an apologetically their advocate. They're sort of like bulldog really, you know, to be as aggressive and and and and play a bit dirty and

so on. That's that's what you hire a high powered attorney like that for ultimately, and and they for them, their definition of success is how much they've got, right. So even though like um Nicole doesn't really care about the fifty five forty five she'd be happy with. And how the lawyer's measure success is by numbers, right, So that's how you measure it. Well, like a fifty fifty, it's like, what what do we even achieve? Right? But that was it wasn't about money, right, yeah, with your child.

So that's that's what's kind of sickening about it is it's still a numbers game for them, even though it's talking about the life of this young child. But then, you know the film, I think it's nice at the at the ending where you know, um uh Nicole says to Charlie like, um do you want to take them tonight? It's not your night, I know, but you want to

take them? You kind of realized that now that they're out of the legal system for the most part, they're going to start negotiating themselves, that the stuff themselves, you know, and they're going to arrive at a more equal distribution of things. You know. Well, that's what the frustration of the film is, the reality that they could have done that from the beginning. Yeah, exactly moves to Eli at the end, I was kind of like, Okay, but that apartment.

That's that's part of the tragedy too, is that they're just not on the same They're not at the same part there, like like it's not sinking up. She's already moved on and gotten arrived at the conclusion this isn't gonna work, and an emotionally different place and professionally in a different place, but he still hasn't necessarily arrived at

that conclusion. Yeah, and that is so real. I think, uh, like, you know, like I said, sometimes there's infidelity and there's these big moments, but so many times relationships don't work because of timing and people not being in the same I mean, you don't have to be the exact same place, but you gotta I mean I had a therapist tell me one time, it's like, you don't have to be

on the same page. He's like, but you gotta be like reading from the same book at least, and sometimes you're not well, especially I feel like in in in these sort of like entertainment industry relationships, it's it's that much more glaring when when two people are different places in their career and and maybe one person starts off in the relationship as being kind of the one that's more successful, and then what happens when the other one kind of like goes around them and you know, that

goes to series and you know, it's like suddenly, yeah, you know, yeah, I'm sure they're jealousy is like that, you know around it. Yeah, you've got to be a competitive person, you know, to be in that in that world, and so how could it not in some way taint your relationship or or change your perception of your partner,

or change the dynamics in the relationship. Yeah, And it's you can see it kind of play out when he gets the mac Arthur and Genius grant and she's you know, happy for him, but thinking, oh, have I made a mistake, because like that I have been successful if I say and that she gets an Emmy at the end for directing. Yeah, it was actually for directing, and because he never thought she was capable of right, right, right, Um, but there there is this feeling of limited there's limited opportunities in

the entertainment industry. They're hard enough to come by. Am I better off even if I'm not happy, even if I'm not doing what I ultimately want to be doing sticking with somebody I do love? But it's also really successful and maybe I can write off of that or should I try to do my own thing? So it's kind of use little You're you're taking a chance by leaving someone who is successful. Yeah, and the whole thing.

I thought it was funny, the little clip of all over the girl when she likes starts, and you know, there were some valid points and that she may have been that type of an actor and he may have changed the perception of her, did the serious theater work, But it's just that's sort of life man like to use that. Then it just got so fucking ugly. Yeah, And I kept thinking she was twenty one when they got married, and there's just so much room for growth

professionally and personally and also um as an actress. Sadly enough, that is your time because the I think the average age of an Oscar winning actress is twenty six. The average age of an Oscar winning actors fifty six. Yes, so there's like and I can feel as an actress too, there's your little window and by the time you're thirty EI, they're like, okay, you're not Yeah, you're not viable. Yeah. So she was waiting for these opportunities to go back

to l A. She never got. Yeah, and again it's not about taking sides or anything, but you can understand I think where both of them were coming from, and I think that's what makes it really powerful and a really accurate showcase of relationship. Well, I mean, he did help her career out, but this idea, and it's very like white male thing is like that I plucked you out of a career that was no doubt just going to meet more t n A. It's like, well maybe

not like you said, she's twenty one. Yeah, she may have if he had never come along, she may have started getting better roles because she was a good actor, right. Yeah, And you see that, especially to when she comes back to l A for that pilot. Uh All. You can hear kind of the background chatter on set where they're sort of saying, I can't believe we got her. We're so lucky, we're so thank you, thank you to the divorce because we're so lucky to have this. She's clearly

a hot commodity and seen as very talented within the industry. Yeah, that's true. Uh, well, let's talk about the Big three. There were three, I mean, for lack of a better word, almost set pieces in this movie, the first being Nicole's that long, unbroken take with Laura Derns character that was just and it's one of those scenes where about two minutes into it, it dawns on you like, Okay, he's not cutting here. It's gonna be one of those scenes.

It's gonna be one of those scenes. And just I'd like to see that scene written out because I mean, just from an nuts and bolts perspective, that's a staggering amount of shipped to remember, right, and then you've got to play it. Yeah, And there's all the like she goes up into the office and love that love, I love the physical kind of business that's going on at the same time, because it just it gives a scene so much more life. I think it even sells the

dialogue that much more. When you're kind of saying it while you're in the middle of doing some other thing. Um, I think it's it's later. I think it's in the in the big argument scene, but one of them walks into the other room and they're still talking to each other and then they kind of come back out into the other room again. Uh, and they're in the same room.

But yeah, just just that sort of behavior mixed in with the delivery of the dialogue makes it feel like less of a monologue, less of like a stagey thing, and more of like this is just a big, you know, important conversation that's happening, but life is still kind of going on at the same time. Yeah, it reminded me you guys are seeing shortcuts. Yeah, absolutely a great scene when Julianne Moore the hairdryer. Yeah she doesn't she like

spill something on her pants or something. So she does the scene bottomless and it's a big argument and it's like this real life is still playing out. She's still trying to get the stain out. She's got the hair dryer and she's drying it and she's nude from the waist down, you know. But nobody's commenting on any of that. They're just having argument because you know they're they're together and so that's just life. It's like one of the

most realistic nude scenes. Yeah, it's great, But I've always thought Scarlett Johansson was a good actor, so it's not like I was totally surprised. But boy, after after that scene, she just like, I had so much more love for her, And I mean, she's my favorite going into Oscar season. For sure, I'd love to see her win for this. It was powerful and at that point of that that in the movie, you hadn't You weren't sure why they

were getting divorced. You just had these lovely letters they wrote to each other, so you were very curious about it. And the way she opened up to a stranger and just almost probably was saying that for the first time, like realizing for the first time, our vocalizing it for

the first time and experiencing that emotion. The fact that she did it with a stranger, I think is really it shows how little she had somebody to communicate with her, discuss with her, to trust, and it makes it all the more impactful, almost for sure, because you're hearing it for her, vocalize it for the first time too as the viewer. Yeah, I also thought that scene. It was so interesting to see Nora's her game. Yeah. Yeah, like the cookies are the best, this tea is fantastic. She

sets up this whole scene so calculating. Yeah, it's pretty good. Just real quick on that that scene. Um, I love at the beginning of the scene where this is our first introduction to Norah Laura Dren's character, and she first says to Scarlett Johnson, I'm sorry I look so sleppy today. That's just like she looks like the runway. Yeah, I just love that. I had had to call that. That's all part of that game. It's like, I'm just a regular gal like you. I don't make like thirty million

dollars a year. Is a high power divorce attourney. Well, it's also that that. What I love too about that scene is that if you contrast that when they're with the marriage counselor at the beginning and it's like she she can't open up to this guy at all, um, but then you realize, like the divorce lawyer Lord Duran's character, she is really functioning also as like almost a therapist, right. She has like the clean xbox. That's like right there, she kind of she knows exactly how this is gonna go.

She's done a million times before. And yeah, she does open up to her because she feels like she's being heard. And I mean also the dynamics therapist yea, yeah, yeah, like what an hour or something, just sliding scale going on there. Yeah. Uh So that's the first set piece.

The second one is uh And I think it was interesting in that for Emily and I we needed to hear that fight because there was so much pleasantry and so much clear pent up things being left unsaid that we were like, when are they going to fucking go at it? And boy when they do, and it's like it was worth the weight. It was so real. Yeah, um, those things. It's I'm fascinated with this aspect of relationships

where vulnerability is just a key part of it. So I've often felt like I'm giving someone a weapon to use against me later, like ever goes wrong, then you have something that you can attack me with because you know me better than anyone else. And to see that dynamic play out of we at one time loved each other so much and now it's mixed up with hate and I can use these things that you've shared with me when you haven't shared with anyone else, that can

use them against you, and real is shit. Yeah, Like I think we've all been in those situations in relationships where you open yourself up and maybe you think about it in the back of your mind or maybe you don't, but that can come back at you later and it's it's a terrible feeling because it makes you do not

want to open up anymore. This is like a this little tangent, but this is just making me think of the whole sequence of events and Casino where de Niro gives Sharon Stone, you know, the safe loot the safety deposit box, and the bank manager says to him like, are you sure, Mr Rosti, do you really trust your wife? He's absolutely, because because so many of my clients don't, you know. And then the way you see it all

come back. Yeah, but that it is a really interesting idea any the way that, yeah, the vulnerability turns into you know, you're exposed, you're weak, but there's no way around it is just trust. You know, if you if you if you all love somebody, you got to trust them and you have to be willing to live with what could come back in the end, you know, to be used against you. It's just, you know, part of the part of the daily make right. I might be going against the grain a little bit here, but that

that scene we're talking about was hysterical. I like the movie a lot, but that scene, for me, despite it being sort of a powerhouse to powerhouse performances, was one scene that I didn't that didn't quite hit me as

much as it wanted to interesting. And I think it's because a lot of the movie plays out in this very raw, this raw space that feels very Cassavetties as perhaps and this felt like we were getting a little bit too much into theatricality where it was sort of like bomb Box saying, Okay, here's our big set, here's our if this is an action movie, here's our big

action sequence. And I don't know, it just it didn't quite hit me as much as I wanted it to, and especially I'm curious to hear what you guys think. But the way that conversation kind of builds and then ends to this really dark point where Adam Driver says, I wish you would die. If that meant Charlie could have a good life. If Charlie was okay, nothing bad happened to him, you know, and you could just die,

that would be like what's best for me? And I'm kind of shocked at her reaction to that, Like she just he he obviously breaks down and realizes what he's done, but she her immediate instinct is to sort of comfort him. Yeah, how do you does that? Does that ring true? Is that making a comment on how she's sort of expected to sort of? I think so? I think so, yeah,

I could. I could believe it that as soon as the words leave his mouth, he knows he's he's he regrets it, you know, he wishes he could have them back, and so he has his breakdown. And yeah, I mean I think maybe perhaps she'd had those same thoughts and just not vocalize them or something, you know, at her kind of weakest point. So to me, it was just, um, yeah,

it it didn't surprise me. I I didn't. I wasn't um surprised that she didn't get angry with him or storm out or something, because they were just they were just having that that kind of super raw moment, you know. Well, I mean there are two ways to play that there she could just say fuck you for saying that, exit slam door. I think this is a far more interesting way to play it, in a far more real way to play it, and kind of tied into I mean,

that was who she was. She ties the shoe at the end, like it's the same woman who ties the shoe that comforts him even though he just said the worst thing he could say to her. I mean, those fights are the are the worst thing in the world to go through in real life, but they're cathartic also, uh, sometimes kind of necessary. It's like a purging, you know,

by all that's built up. Yeah. Yeah, And I think it goes back to there in two different places in this in the stages of this thing, and she's probably already had that part and he just wasn't around kind of stages of recognizes it and she um and also just uh, those I've had these fights before and when you say that and you immediately regret it, and it's almost sad. It's like she's she's witnessing it and thinking, oh,

oh yeah, I remember being right. And he starts it by calling her honey, and you know, I keep forgetting and I keep and I think they've just been together so long, it's sort of second nature that she comforts him, and this is really weak when he's collapses and very real. Yeah, that that reminds me of so much, so much. So much of the physicality between them in the movie is them trying to go against their instincts of knowing exactly how they would normally sort of comfort the other person

because they're so used to doing it. But now that the divorce is happening, especially when the lawyers come in, they you can see in their body language they sort of have to restrain themselves from smiling at the joke or putting a hand on the shoulder because it's like, no, we can't do that anymore, right. Yeah, Emily and I were laughing when we were watching this. I was like, boy, it's like, I think we're smart enough that we would just live in separate houses and never get divorced, so

we don't have to go through this. So we'll just keep it all. We'll just I'll move in down the street and uh, we'll never have to go through that. Um. I do think in that scene Adam Driver a lot of that is self his pain, inward pain, and he's

just expressing it in this way. And I think when you say something like I hope you die, like every day I wake up and I hope you die, you're trying so hard to hurt someone else, to project your pain on someone else, that it's I felt like it was a really unsubtle attempt by him to hurt her and he completely failed and just showed that he was he was the one that was in so much pain. Yeah. And I think it also, like you said, two different

stages in life, that short sort of reveals her maturity. Yeah, visa v him where he's sort of at a more I guess immature stage of his life or his psychological development. Yeah, don't they start it by where she is, like do you understand why I want to be in l A? And no, Yeah, it's a bit like a child like yeah, yeah, he's still not willing to even even entertain or listen

or expound on why she would want that. Yeah, and all these Uh, I wondered kind of like if they were improving some and uh, Scarlett Johansson was like, not a word or pause was improv She said, no, it's very at least in this film was hyper specific about everything. Um, and I'd be curious to read the script if it says things like she gets up and leaves the room and gets a tissue, Like how specific did he get um?

Or was that something they found in the blocking and rehearsing and yeah, And I mean to me, I think the better way in general is to be open and collaborative and maybe try different things in improv But there's something to be said when you have something so specific, a vision so specific, to adhere to that and just be like, now, this is it, like say these words and it's it's it's surprising to hear that because a lot of it does have this sort of improvised field,

which I think is just a testament to the to the acting and of course the directing of the actors. Yeah. Absolutely So. The third set piece was Adam Driver's performance of Being Alive the Stephen Sondheim from The Musical Company. Uh. That sort of is one of the sheer delights of this movie. And it comes out of nowhere and it

starts the way they play it. It just started so organic, and it's kind of small, and he even sits down at one point and then gets back up, and it just it the emotional impact, Like I don't even know why, but it was just so hardcore. It was very cathartic,

you know. But I love too that, Um, a scene like that is really only possible in this movie that's not a musical, because he runs with this crowd of like theater actors and they're all very performative and they all kind of like love show tunes, and you know, he's he's he's in the right crowd for for that kind of moment to just arise organically. It would not

have worked. Yeah, Yeah, There's there's not too many other like characters and situations that would allow for that kind of thing unless you just wanted to make up a real tonal shift as a filmmaker in that moment. Yeah, it seemed very real, uh, And speaking of the company like interesting and that there was a real human son, but there was also this other family that they had surrounded themselves with that has uh that we're clearly taking sides.

You know, that's very very interesting, Chuck, because I was thinking that, you know, the Scarlett Johansson character, she has a family, right, like her her biological family is still intact and they're all out in l A and that's a big part of why she wants to move there and live there, to be close to a family, so that her son can grow up around you know, his his his relatives and so on. And the Adams Driver character. It's it's referenced very very loosely at the beginning, but

she only met his parents one time. They were alcoholics. There was a lot of fighting. That's why he is the way he is. He's a responsible one. He's kind of because he had to be the adult when he was a kid. It sounds like basically had to kind of raise his parents. His family is the theater. Yeah, his family is the theater company, and so he's losing them. So they both have their families, but one's kind of an adopted family and one's the you know, the biological family.

But um, but the the tension between those two and of course, uh in in the view of the court, they only care about the l A family. They don't care at all about the New York family. You know, there's no consideration. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Um I'm gonna jump in here. I'm gonna sound a bit like a philistine here, but I the song he sings, I didn't know I didn't know what it was from. I didn't. Well, I did only because I've read there's like two Sondheim

songs in this movie. He's the other one, the one she doesn't seen right before. Those scenes back to back, I'm sorry to say, just didn't work for me. I was just like, this is too much, This is too much like just music for me. Maybe I just like singing that much, And especially his scene it felt for me two on the nose where it's like, oh, this is the scene where he sings sort of an innocuous song and he we and he as he's singing it realize the words could be about him in his relationship.

There's almost like buried meaning. It was just a little too on the nose for me, and I totally understand if I'm the only one to cynicism creeping in. Maybe maybe where me and my girlfriend Alice were both when those two scenes came on, we both kind of were like, Okay, we're gonna have to hear all these songs front to back. We're just kind of like, all right, let's get on with it. Get on with it. Maybe I don't know, so you're both dead inside. Yes, that's that's true. Well,

I'm glad you found each other. That's true. What did you think Annie about that scene? Um? I like how I think my favorite part was actually how he sat down and got back up. That was good. Yeah, because I I was watching it kind of like, oh, he's sad, he's in that stage. We're like, okay, I'll get been sing and then he kind of waves it off and sits back down and then has a second thought or

it just has to finish it. And the lyrics along with the lyrics, it is pretty on the nose, but it is yeah, yeah, yeah, it's him saying I really want that vulnerability and pamp and do all this agony. I would do it again, and I want to do it again. So I think it was long and it kind of left me questioning, huh wow, how long is this gonna go? But in a way that almost made it more effective than if they had gotten out of it sooner, because it made me really well, sorry, yeah,

I know, it just made me really sick. It kind of becomes it starts when he's first singing. It's kind of like this cute thing, and you know, the theater groups all kind of like involved, and then as it goes on and on, it kind of reaches that point where it becomes just sad and then maybe even by the end a little redemptive or has a note of hope perhaps, But it does fluctuate through a lot of

emotions just by the sheer duration of it. Yeah, I think so, Um, the durition didn't That was not something that stuck out to me, which I exactly exactly so, but but I'm assuming that means it was working for me, that I was kind of getting all those notes and transitions and in the way the scene kind of ebbs

and flows, But I mean it does. It does have the feeling of like this is a consciously chosen set piece kind of scene, the same way the fight is that way, the same way certain other sequences, the opening monologue and so on is that way. There's a little bit thesis statement to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And it's like him kind of saying like, I mean, it's him consciously deciding, like this is going to be

the scene where there's catharsis, there's the breakthrough and so on. Um. Actually, if I had to sing a lot of scene that I wish wasn't there, or that I wish played out a little differently, it would be the kid reading the letter at the end of the movie, just because I kind of feel like it feels like a scene from a more sentimental filmmaker in a way. And and overall I felt like this scene this film from Bomback had some of his rough edges standed down a little more

than that I'm used to. Um that that it seemed like it's almost like his crossover movie. It kind of feels like he's entering into territory where he wants to to address a little bit wider of an audience maybe, which is valid, of course, but um, you know, throughout the film, I kind of missed some of the really sharp and just absolutely brutal asides that you get in a film like Squid in the Well for instance, or

even Myerwit Stories, which is his film just before this one. Um, when you when you look at these families, and it's always this milieu of like hyper educated, sharp people that are very culturally dialed in and so on, um, and just the way they can be so cruel to each other and so casually and say the worst things in the world, and then the film rushes right past it you know, he has this way with his editing two where you know, somebody will deliver this like really harsh

line and then it just boom cuts to the next scene and it just keeps moving. And this film it kind of felt more like those moments were a bit more telegraphed, and the film would sit with them because it wanted you to kind of make sure you got it, I guess in a way. So I don't know, Um, this is the jumping ahead a little bit, but this this to me felt like not really bomback light, but

but a little bit trending in that direction. You know that to me, Squid in the Whale is a more kind of brutally honest look at you know, a divorce, the way the way the kids are kind of yanked apart. I mean, people have said that Squid in the Whale is sort of divorced from the kid's perspective and marriage stories,

divorced from the parents perspective. But I feel like even in Squid in the Whale, the parents are very very well drawn characters, right they you know, Jeff Daniels and Laura Lennie in that film, they feel like absolutely like real people, and you you do get their perspective, even if it a little bit more Jesse Eisenberg and his brother in this film The Child. You know, the kid I don't know. I want to get advice. Opinion is, doesn't it seem like he should be able to read

or spell like a little better than he can. Doesn't it seem like he maybe doesn't need a car seat like at his age? Am I wrong? Seems like to have like a learning like reading thing was maybe mentioned where he's a little slow and okaying as opposed to he's really good. Yeah, I think that was the thing. It might have been a plot point that gets mentioned. I could be wrong, and I think it might have been a thing to set up him reading the letter

at the end and Adam Driver sitting down to help him. Yeah. Uh, which that's true. That's a little like maybe slightly forced. Yeah, somebody perhaps a disability so you can get this sentimental somebody and somebody made the comment like this is, you know, the slowest kid of two brilliant parents. You know, like he doesn't he just doesn't feel like the product of those parents that are that are both very smart, very

like with it. Um, he kind of feels like somebody else's kid in a way I don't know, Um, but yeah, that's that that is that is true. But uh and and so many of his other films, Bomback is really good at showing, you know, the the intelligence of a kid, the way that kids know so much more than their parents assume they know. And there and there's so much further along in their comprehension of what's going on in their parents marriage and the force and all this stuff.

They they just feel it in their bones, you know. Um, and this kid seemed a little bit more almost oblivious in a way or yeah, which again maybe is a conscious choice. Maybe is um something different that Bomback is trying. But I kind of missed that that that extra element, that extra dimension of you know, a character with a real point of view and and and their own kind of feelings about things. Obviously, this kid later in life is going to have feelings and thoughts and in process

this in his own way. But um, he kind of seems just sort of like a cipher or or like, um, you know, he's not really his own character. He's just sort of this uh thing that that your parents are sort of you know, fighting over bargaining with Yeah, I think that was kind of the point. Yeah, there was one thing that really stood out to me, and I couldn't tell if I was being a stickler for it

or not. But in the very beginning and Nicole's letter of things she loves about about Charlie, one of them was he's such a great dad, even of the bad stuff he put tantrums. And then I'm witnessing him as a dad. I'm like, I mean, maybe he was when

it was easier. Maybe because it's so stressful, Like I can only imagine you're flying out to l A and you've got to get a lawyer, and it's just everything I witnessed, I was sort of I saw him as a dad that got was all consumed by whatever he felt like being consumed by in the moment, and that was the play that he's working on, the play if it's playing with his son, and that's that. But um, that's different than being a great dad, right, you know, is a great dad doesn't get so all consumed by

your work that you failed to be a dad. Yeah. Um, that's a good point I kept thinking about. I think it probably is true though, that it was, like you said, it's easier for him to be all those things when the marriage is intact, when he has her support. Yeah, and maybe when it was easier, right, you know, because like he says, she loves to play. She plays all the time, and it's a percent all in. And then when he kind of has to do that, he's not

really good at it. He's like, oh, I'm too tired to play, or he kind of just does it absent mindedly, right, or they go I love when they go check or treating, and he's like driving around. L an awful movie that I kept going, Get into a neighborhood, Get off the fucking sunset. It's like Hollywood is surrounded by houses, the neighborhoods. Yeah, this movie does make a lot of pointed comments about l A. Yeah, pretty great. I love that you know

everybody the consumer frame, but the space this face. Yeah, finally, I think you know how A bomb that way. Let's talk real quick here about the great scene with Martha kelly Um from Baskets, one of my favorite TV shows, as the Evaluator, because the Evaluator who comes to dinner like that could have been its own little short film. It was brutal and tough to see uh, and then ends on this really horrific hysterical note when he sucking

slices his are But he played it so well. He was just like, oh, I guess I didn't retract the blade or whatever, and you know, he sliced his wrist vertically like that's what you do, yeah, when you want to make it final. And she and Martha's just so great. She's just like, you know, are you sure you're okay? And he rolls his sleeve down and is seeping through.

It's just a blood bath all this, and they have that really awkward moment at the door where she can't get it to unlock and he has to kind of get uncomfortably physically. He's like he is kind of you know, dominating over and you can tell she just wants to get out of there as quickly get out of there,

and yeah, he leaves that little blood. Those those types of scenes, those moments, to me, we're more effective sometimes then the sort of the scenes we mentioned earlier blow up scenes, because he still manages to inject a little bit of very dark humor into it, and it feels like it's playing to bomb box strengths a little bit more and yeah, the ending, and then he goes to clean it up and the blocking of the way he's trying to wash it off in the sink and then

reach over to get the paper towel. It's physically and I hate the way he faints, you know. Yeah, he just ends up on the floor. And for a second there, I'm like, is he going to bleed out? Yeah, I don't know, That's not what movie I'm watching. There's no way that's going to happen. I love to you that earlier in that scene, just what he's going to get a glass of water for you know. Uh, And and he opens the cabinet from the wrong way and she sees it, and it's like he immediately feels the need

to explain to her, sorry new apartment. Yes, yes, yes, Like she's like obviously she knows, probably, you know, because she's she's been in a lot of these same situations. And the thing is is like I feel like any parent, if you had just somebody come to watch, you would a feel like everything they did was wrong, which is totally do things they would never normally do. Like you know,

if somebody came to watch or whatever. Yeah, yeah, like if somebody came to watch you and Emily, oh my god, you would probably yeah, you would probably be too far off from how he does just doing you know, making mistakes, being clumsy and then suddenly realizing, oh, I shouldn't be doing this because that's gonna make me look like a bad parent. Yeah, and Emily and were just always fucking with each other and just and fun, but like an outsider might be like, what is wrong with you two?

And also the way that the kid is not necessarily like being the model kid during this visit, which to him, he's just being a kid. But Adam Driver, it's like, oh my god, you need to be perfect right now or else this woman is going to think that you are you know, I'm a bad father to you or something, you know, And and he can't really explain that. All he can say is is just part of mommy and daddy's process and it's okay, and don't worry about it.

And he just wants to put him at ease. But in his mind he knows every time he tells him to do something and he doesn't do it, you know, or when he's doing his homework, and he kind of is not really like putting in the full effort. He's just you know, you can see the wheels turning where he's just like, oh my god, this is not going the way it's supposed to. This is not like UM.

And actually thought, when UM, when the first big song sequence happens and it's at uh Scarlett Johansson's whole family when they're all performing, I thought that was going to cut to the observer and it was gonna be like they're putting on a show to show like I've got this full family, this beautiful house. You know, it's it's just you know, a party. All that's time. Uh in this like the perfect environment for a kidney girl open in contrast to his depressing apartment. But it didn't shout

out to Julie Haggarty. He's good seeing her on screen, and I love Merritt. We were anytime she's in something like, I'm such a huge fan that that scene where the divorce papers, it was almost like there was a gun sitting in the other room and the audience is just like staring at it, and he's walking near it and I'm just like, oh my god. He goes over to the sink and he doesn't notice it. The first time. Yeah, that toast great. Uh, well, do you guys have anything else?

I mean, I think we kind of hit the high points and the low points. Any final thoughts. I do think it's interesting. I'm definitely purposeful. That was called a marriage story a divorce story. Yeah, yeah, I thought it was gonna show more of the marriage, but they really started off at the end. Yeah, And I thought that

was really interesting. And again, if you hadn't known, if I had never heard they say, oh, this is about a diforce and it's gonna be really gut wrenching, I could have gone in at first thing been like oh, and then right away I thought that was interesting. Final thoughts you've heard me maybe have a few more issues with the film. So for me, I liked the film a lot. I think it didn't quite reach the heights I was hoping it would for me or the way it did for other people. But I think it's still

a great film. And um, the performances especially and especially not just the leads, but the supporting Raylio to Laura Dern alan Alda really add so much to the movie, and especially I read this somewhere apparently alan Alda has Parkinson's saw that he had some shakes going on. He had some shakes, and somebody kind of commented how brave it was for him to not to to be okay

with not hiding it completely. There's a scene where he's kind of shaking, you know, good on him, and he's kind of in a way somewhat of the heart of the movie. Yeah, which it's why it's so heartbreaking when he disappears and Leo shows back unceremoniously. There's no like there was. That was one of the biggest gut punches in the movie because they were starting to work it out. I mean they were, they were a yard from the end zone. Yeah, and then ray Leota walks in because

because of l A. Yeah, that was the sticking point. Yeah. If Charlie just would have been able to give on that, they would have saved a lot of money and not gone through that ship. But I think that's the whole point of the whole thing. Yeah, and Alan Alda, he saw that. He was so honest with it. I know you don't want to hear this, but this is what it is. Yeah, and Charlie couldn't and wouldn't hear it.

It's such great casting he's like a surrogate father when he says, you know you remind me of of me on my second marriage. I love to you. That the line he says when when they're petting the cat and he goes, I wouldn't expect too much from that cat. Yeah, I love it, um boy, I love Adam Driver was a I don't know how y all felt about Girls, but I was a really really big fan of that show. And just I think he's the best. He's got a new movie coming out next week, um sci fi movie.

He's there's anything about this? Is it called Star Wars? Yes? That's okay, Okay, sorry, bad joke. It's good. I bought it. You're a good actor because I was like, you mean something besides Star Wars's all right, let's get the thumbs out everyone, one to five thumbs. We'll start with you, Casey. I'm gonna go four out of five. M To me, this was not top tier bomb box, but is very very solidly made. Um excellent performances all around. What's your favorite film of his? Probably I would have to say

Squid in the Whale. I think I just I just like him in that New York mill. You I like the kind of just the speed of it, the kind of unsparing, completely uncompromising quality to it. I also think Greenberg Is is a fantastastic film, and I think that that film has so much more of a tactile feeling of l A to me than this film did. Um, you know, for for valid reasons, because that wasn't really the point of this movie per se, even though it

is about in l a New York split. But you know, Greenberg to me is like his definitive like l A movie quote unquote um. And it's just that that's a beautifully shot film. Harr Savides, I think, did you know, one of his best pieces of work on that movie. So to me, like coming out of this film, I thoroughly enjoyed it, you know, the entire time I was watching it, But when I left the theater, it was

out of my head pretty quickly. It wasn't something that I was turning over in in the days following that. Although now that we've had this discussion, I have realized that there is maybe a little more to chew on than then I maybe gave it credit for. So yeah, very very solid movie. Um. Probably if somebody asked me to recommend to know a Bombach movie they've never seen

one before. This would probably be the one because I feel like this is the easiest one for people to mine kind of entry way into And like I said, it's got some of the some of the sharper edges rounded down a little bit. Um. But but I do hope that in the future, you know, he he will continue to kind of um make these slightly more idusyncratic and and challenging films. Yeah, alright, I'm also going to

go with four. Um. And I really went back and forth about this because, um, like when we did Knives out of that movie is just so fun, and I think fun it's easier to to enjoy and like, and then when something's difficult, it might be harder to give it like a five. So I was really wondering if it was more that wasn't necessarily a fun movie to watch. It did have fun elements, but I think the performances

were were amazing. Um. I've never been in a situation to this level, but I've had something close and I thought it was really really realistic and just an honest view of what this can look like. Um, and that that line between love and hate getting blurred UM. And then I guess one thing that it's not necessarily a bad thing, but I feel like entertainers we have, um this thing where we make a lot of movies about entertainment, and so I thought, like the whole New York l

a thing. I totally get it, but I've just felt like it can be kind of alienating. UM, and it's something I sort of get tired of seeing, even as somebody that works in this industry, director and actor, seeing this world, it kind of takes it took me out of it. I guess, yeah, saying more movies should be set in Atlanta for example, everyone anywy do feel like two characters that have probably used the phrase flyover country a few times? Yeah, I'm going to give it four

three point eight to four. I kind of yeah, I agree with everyone what everyone says. I do want to say my favorite note bomb Box film is a little bit of a under the radar one. Mtress America loved it. Oh, I do love that one too, because he goes full screwball comedy, very Preston Sturgis esque, and I just love how much that movie makes me laugh. Yeah, I love

that movie. While it does have a great deal of sincerity to it, and I think that one he co wrote with Greta Gerwig, which I think is maybe part of the reason why it has a little bit more fun to it and cleverness. All right, uh five films For me, guys, I loved it. I loved everything about it. Um. The acting to me was just um ridiculous, how great

it was across the board. Same with the writing. Um. The story hit home for me, and not in a in a like my marriage is in trouble way, but just the realities of long term relationships and the warts and the bumps and the I mean more than bumps, the volcanoes that you have to endure and that you do endure or you shoo's not too uh And and I've seen in my periphery with other friends that have gone through divorces that mirror this in a lot of ways and get ugly when they shouldn't have that start

out maybe as quote unquote friendly divorces. So it was all just on point for me. I loved it, and I love the ending. I thought her time that shoe was just sort of that little bit of hope that you need, like they're all going to be okay. Uh and you needed that. At the end of this movie, that scene made me think of you know the Brian you know song I'll come Running to tie your shoe. Yeah, it's a beautiful song. And he should have played that song. Yeah,

I know. Well it would have been two on the nose. Well, I'll certainly all right. There's a lot of thumbs everyone. I have so much fun with these round tables. So let's get in for another one soon. Maybe Star Wars. We've been talking about that and he's excited. All right, Thanks everyone, Thank you. Thanks yeah. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.