Filmmaker Series: Ben Harrison on The Hudsucker Proxy

done two of these. I've only done two, and I, uh, I've been I've been missing you man. I've been wanting to come back on the show for a long time. And I know it's been not right. We haven't done this center. It's been a real uh travesty of justice. I would say, I think people are angry and upset. Frankly, I don't blame us. What is movie Crush without Ben Harrison coming around? Every so often they say that's right, agreed, Uh,

And just let everyone know. Ben has a background set upon a zoom that is the interior set of Paul Newman's office, uh, from The Hudsucker Proxy, the movie we're talking about, and we decided to, as per tradition, with both Ben and Adam, to have this over cocktails in the evening. It's eight o'clock for me, it's five five fifteen for me, five fifteen for you. What are you drinking?

I am drinking some some apple brandy from St. George Distillery. Well, it's a it's a it's a special treat that as like it's like I would say, my favorite brown spirit, like full stop and having apple brandy, yeah, specifically the St. George Apple brandy. So and having that in my like like as a known known for a lot of people in my life means it shows up at like birthdays and holiday times a lot. So they seem me typing right now right, Well, you don't need to you don't

need to type. I can. I can provide you some apple brandy. Check no, no, no, I'm typing. So now I have a reminder to send you Apple brand Okay, oh yeah, you're now on the the official list and oh you a shipment of oh you uh your package anyway? So ah, you don't you don't know me nothing? Um I do, though, but what's apple brandy? Like? It's like so I I first had their brandy and it was the not barrel aged version, so it was a clear spirit.

In a rest taurant in New York called eleven Madison Park, it was like a very special, like once in a lifetime dinner for me at a very fancy restaurant. And at the end of the meal, they dropped off just a full milli eater bottle of this apple brandy on the table and said, like, enjoy as much of this as you would like. Like with the check, they bring this bottle of booze, and I'm like what and and like my like, I am like a eat everything on

my plate kind of person. So like there's an impossible amount of alcohol here and we've just had dinner and like three glasses of wine. This is like the worst torture I've ever experienced. Because they've dropped the check. They're not charging us for this, it's built into the price of the meal. And I'm like, how much of this can I drink? And I start drinking and it's so good. It tastes like it tastes like you're biting into a fresh apple that has no sweetness, and it replaces the

sweet with the spirit. And so they that that is a a private label that they only do for that restaurant, but the distillery makes a barrel aged version of the same that you can buy in your finer bottle shops, and uh, I really enjoy it. Well, I'm looking now. It says the St. George California Reserve Apple Brandy availability colon very limited. Yeah, it can be hard to find, but it's not like super expensive. I think it's like thirty five bucks or forty bucks for a bottle or

something like that. Well, I am having a you know, I've kind of gangd this from you and Adam. That just tequila and a little soda. Yeah, that's the official beverage of the Greatest Generation our Star Trek podcast. It's good. It's like what I do is and I don't know if you do it quite this way, but I do um For this one, I'm doing the George Clooney Geo Clooneyism only calls it, uh cosamigos can't even think of the real name because we call it Geo Clooney And uh,

you know about three quarters of that. And then I get a topa Chico because it just has the most fizz. Yeah, and I do a couple of splashes of topa Chico and then I do like like I do like half a lime. Yeah, so it's almost like the skinniest margariting. I love it. That's that is a that's a drink that I drank very often. Um. I mean the Cosomigos is my favorite. Riding motorcycles with my friend and no

helmets tequila uh Hutch. Anybody that's seen the cosome Egos delivery truck will know that is how they market that particular brand of tequila. No safety. I do not understand that choice. It makes me worried for American movie star George Clooney every time I see it, But I love that.

You know, recently Springsteen Springsteen was outed with the story of that, like being in that National Park on his motorcycle and doing tequila shots with his fans and getting back on his motorcycle got d w I and the you know, Fox News was just railing against him and all this stuff, and I was like, I don't think you understand how fucking cool that made him. Look. He did tequila shots with random bands in a national party, and then not much. He did like two and then

got back on his motorcycle. I think he blew a point oh four. They threw threw it out of court even and I was like, man, that that backfired. Yeah, he knows his little big way. I love that. I didn't know he drank. You know, he had substance issues, So I guess he's learned how to d tequila shots with random bands and deal with it. That's uh, that's not easy to do, alright, So hudsucker proxy, we could talk about drinking all night. We have talked about drinking

all night, we have in the past. But this is one of my one of my favorite Coen Brothers films, and it's like they're one of their least successful films and they're actolately successful, I think, and uh, and I have have to think that that has a lot to do with Joel Silver being the executive producer. Like I kind of feel like it's a weird combo. He wanted it to be. They're kind of move into more commercial film and they wanted to make a big budget Cohen

Brothers movie. Yeah, did you uh did you hear that story about it being big and brown? It's kind of great. I'll read it for you this. I remember reading this back in the day and I looked it up to confirm, and this is from Rolling Stone. It said that Jennifer Jason Lee told the press just prior to shooting she had a biography of Rosalind Russell in which the actress insisted that big sets in the color brown kill laughs and Joel Silver Deadpand what we've got here is the

biggest brownest comedy I've ever seen. Those huge sets and that Cohen Brothers are always in that rich tweetie brown, it feels like, at least in these period films. So it's they made a big brown movie, made a big

brown movie. And Joel Silver like maybe more like a more like like authentic Jack Lipnick character you can't you can't point out in Hollywood today, like he's like off of fresh off of making like Commando and Predator, great great movies, absolutely, but like but like kind of a kind of a hilarious team up here, and they never teamed up again. Like I think that the Coen Brothers came off of this project, like, Yeah, working with Joel was really cool, and Joel Silver was like never again,

Like we made the movie wanted to make. Yeah, it was a complete flop. It said it did not even clear three million at domestic box office, and I think costs plus to make. Um. But it is a movie that is was kind of crushed by critics at the time and has been reviewed a little bit more favorably since. Um. I didn't love it back in the day. I always rated it towards the bottom of my Coen Brothers list, and not that it was like terrible, but if you if you have to rank things, it was lower on

my list. But I definitely, you know, after watching it today through the studied lens of movie crush, have more appreciation for it. It is a very classic, sort of by the numbers screenwriting, one on one kind of movie. And I think that was their intent to make sort of this homage to like Preston Sturgis and Howard Hawks and these sort of big broad romantic comedy kind of movies of the day. Yeah, and and and like in being a homage to old Hollywood and also kind of

like a send up of old Hollywood. It. I don't know. I think I think that Hudsucker Proxy is uniquely appealing to movie nerds in a way that like, I think that in a way that kind of explains why it wasn't a big hit at the box office. Like, you kind of have to be really into the movi nous of it to to really enjoy it. And like I watched it with my wife last night and she was on Instagram within twenty minutes of the movie starting. You know, No,

I mean it's definitely a movie. Even watching it today, I'm like, well, of course it wasn't a big hit. Yeah, who ever thought it would be? I don't know, Like I'm like an I'm an idealist, and like, I mean their next their next movie is Fargo, right, yeah, and that's another one. It's that's the that's the high point of their career financially until more recently, I guess probably Yeah, like I maybe probably, uh what's the Western Uh? No

Country for Old Man? No Country for Old Men? Probably is like the first time they made more than Fargo, right Yeah. I mean I'm looking over their films. I mean, none of them are the biggest movies ever, yet they they'll always get financed. I mean they made a movie, you know, five years ago, in Hail Caesar that I sort of liken a little bit to this one, and that it was sort of a big budget homage type

thing that has fairly limited appeal. I think that the other thing that probably got them in trouble with the critics is that it's a da a sex Machina story

that like Norville does not save himself. It's just a but but I love this is like the rare day of sex Makena that I really love because it it is so beautifully set up, like it's set up from the from the like opening shots and and and they build more and more framework for it over the course of the film, so that by the time wearing Hudsucker as Angel is floating down from heaven, I'm like, I'm here for it. Like, tell me how we are going to save the day with the with the blue letter

that's still in the in the apron the blue letter. Yeah, it's it's a movie that, um, I think they do well when they're saying when they're playing in the sandbox of sort of heightened reality, sort of fantasy, magical realism a little bit, which they do a little bit here and there, like, um, this movie maybe more magical realism than a lot of their others. Like yeah, I think so. When when Moses like puts the broom handle and the clock skiers and turns, turns to camera and breaks the

fourth wall. Yeah, now they're fully in at that point. But I'm all in, man, I mean I love it. I think they I think they do well in this sort of just slightly sideways world that they create. Um. I mean, it's still based in reality to a certain degree, but they dabble in that in other movies. I think, oh, brother Art thou dabbled a little bit out side that reality, even something like The Big Lebowski, you know, very grounded,

but it's also has that the Sam Elliott narration. Yeah, kind of like almost a fairy tale kind of thing. I think that, like Moses really feels like The Stranger and The Big Lebowski. Like there's a lot of things that happened in this movie that are that you see them try again in a stronger film The Big Lebowski like and and a lot of other like Coen Brothers

kind of signature moves. I feel like start here and it's like they're like, it's got to be so weird to be them, because you know, this is known as a failure, but I feel like it is it succeeds at what it sets out to do. Yeah. And and that's such a totally weird tension as an artist to to have have nailed it in some ways and yet like nobody cared and nobody liked it. Yeah. I mean I'm sure they, like you said, I'm sure they walked

away from this movie and they're like that was great. Yeah, like it it is all up there on the screen. I mean, one thing no critic is gonna bult it for is how great it looks. I mean, you have Roger Deakins on board again, and uh, actually, I wonder if this is one of the first ones that he worked on them with I had to be right, Yeah, I guess unless he did. Uh, I don't think he did. Barton Fink, did he? He may have done Barton Fink, but it was the very least pretty early in their

relationship I think. But you know, it looks amazing he did and was that the first one that must have been? Yeah, So it looks unbelievable. The art deco design in the in the sets, these huge big brown sets. Yeah, they just look amazing and it really holds up to it

looks awesome. It's a it's it's really beautiful, like and and they really spared no expense, Like they built a miniature of Manhattan in it on a sound stage so that they could do the camera flying around and like the transit like that that opening shot where the cameras is coming in over New York and lands on Orville standing on the ledge of the Hot Sucker building is like a pretty sophisticated technical achievement for its time, because they like they're going from a miniature to a full

sized thing, and they have to shoot the miniature in real time, so they had to have like micro fake snow because that snow is not digital except for the one part where it transitions from the miniature to the to the real and and and they had to like scale little snow for this little set and have it fall at the right eight to to look the way it's you know, to the look the way that snow looks.

And that stuff is so bind blowing. It's not really like what you associate the Cohen Brothers with that like weird like technical special effects driven filmmaking. But there's a lot of that in this movie. Like and they wrote it in the eighties with Sam Raimie, like right after they did Blood Simple, and they didn't really like realize that they it was like unproducible at the time that they wrote it. Yeah, I mean I think they knew they needed more money than they would be able to

get soon. Yeah, But um, I was surprised that I did the research today and saw that they wrote it back then too, and I was a little bit surprised that it wasn't like, well, now we've got some currency, so let's write something bigger, Like they wrote this apparently in Raising Arizona Um the work uniform for Nicolas Cage in one scene as it Hudsucker Industries patch, so like it was around back then. You want to hear. The wildest thing about that, though, is that the hula hoop

part was not in that original script. That was a rewrite right before they like went into production on this. What was it then, I don't I don't even know, like they I don't know if they've talked about it, but they like needed him to come up with an invention that seemed like something that an idiot could come up with, but also that was like incredibly popular at the time, and it's so perfect to like, it's so brilliant from the very beginning with the circle of the

coffee ring. Yeah. Uh oh man, I can't believe that wasn't in the original thing because it just fits so perfectly, I know, and it's it. It's in like every bit of the production design of this movie. It feels like it's it feels like it starts with a drawing of a circle on a paper and they're like, what what can we write a movie about to do with this? You know, and you know, for kids, and it's like it's all like perfect circles and straight lines, like vertical. Like.

One of the things I love about the opening scene with wearing Headsecre jumping out of the window is that that boardroom table has like what looks like parallel lines on it, but they're actually lines that like split apart, like from from your perspective watching him run down towards the window. The lines on the surface of the table look like vertical lines on screen, but when you see the table overhead there, actually it's actually like a triangle. Yeah.

And then every office has like really tall vertical lines in the windows. Every time you're looking at the city, obviously, the tall vertical lines of the buildings and well that's kind of the art deco thing right. Yeah. And then when you see the the the elevation in the blueprint of the extruded plactic plastic dinghis it's like it's just they show the hula hoop on its side. It's just a vertical line. Of course. Man, I will never I've seen this movie if times now, but it had been

a while. I will never not laugh at the hula hoop sequence with those kids and that one fucking kid that they got that was just going at it on the sidewalk, then it was around his neck, and then the kids screaming like that delights me every single time.

Let's see it. It's amazing. I read that that kid, like like all the best audition stories, showed up to the audition with his own hula hoop and that like really impressed them, and he apparently just had like a ton of charisma and they were just like, this is

the kid totally. Man, he looks like the kid. Uh and you know these are just Coen Brothers kids, but uh he because they don't use children a lot, but he looks like the kid one of the kids who ripped off uh minks, not mink, but the guy's wig in the alleyway in Miller's Crossing he was when he was dead in the alley. Those two kids pulled his two pay off and run away with it. He looks in my mind, it's the same kid, I know, it's not. He looks like a p past person, you know, like

he looks like a photograph of a kid from the fifties. Um. You mentioned something earlier about some of the Cohen's patented sort of things stylistically, and that's one of my favorite things about their movies is UM the stuff that they do in all their movies. One of them is the repeating dialogue, like saying a line twice in a row. Another thing is which I kind of just noticed today, was they have a thing with um having smart characters

who are really dumb, and dumb characters who are really smart. Yeah. I feel like most of their movies have that element in some way. Yeah. And and Tim Robbins is kind of that in this because he's not an imbecile, No, he's he's he's a rube. He's he doesn't know what he's gotten himself into because he's unsophisticated and right like didn't have time to like work his way up and learn the ropes but he's not stupid, though I don't think he's brilliant, but he did admit the hula who

he quote. He quotes Buddha and he tries to speak finish and like he's not he's They kind of picked the wrong guy obviously because about Win, right, Yeah, and like Buzz, the elevator operator is kind of like like they kind of imply that, like Buzz has just as much potential to be the president of Utsucker Industries in some ways. He invented the bindy strong. That guy played PRIs Baluski in The Wire and I didn't realize that until this watch through. Yeah, he's been in uh. I

remember from the singles the Cameron Crow movie. He was one of the grunge buddies. He's great. He's so funny in this movie. Like it's such a funnier role than I like think of that actor as being capable of Like it's so big and and he's like he's that guy, right, he has like this super low status job, but he's like snoppy and witty and like entertaining in this way that like you like if you're not sharp, you can't do that, you know, you can't like come up with

jokes on the fly that way. Yeah. I mean that's some good writing, man. That that first scene we introduced to him and he's rhyming all the people getting on the elevator and he says whatever, so and so floor eight. He was like floor seven, walk down the floor, rhyme. And then Jennifer Jason Lee too. I mean, what a fucking performance man. Yeah, I think that. Uh. She got kind of criticized for being like to like machine gun with her dialogue and to stylized, but I think it's

so good. And when she's not like doing the fast talking career gal stuff, when like in the in the quieter moments, especially when she's kind of falling in love with Norville, the she brings so much authenticity to that. Like it's so hard to imagine any other actress getting us from She is going to write the inside you know, like behind the scenes investigative journalism article that destroys this

guy too. She is smooching with him on the balcony at the Christmas party, and I completely buy it, like they're like, her love for him feels so authentic and and likewise his for her. I think Tim Robbins was great in this role. Yeah, I agree. I really like they're pairing. Um I saw. I kept thinking in early on, especially with that mail room stuff, how Terry gilliam esk. I was like, this feels like Brazil. Yeah, absolutely, And

I was like, am I alone in this? And a and a read article on Roger Ebert dot Com has a series called the Unloved Series where they write about movies that initially were you know, kind of panned and kind of revisit them. And the person who wrote this said that compared it to a mashup of Orson Wells, Chuck Jones cartoons, and Terry Gillham. Yeah. I was like, yeah,

that's that kind of nails it. Actually, Yeah, the satire is so much less biting than Terry gilliam though, Like one thing I always think about with this movie is how grim the the work life is for anybody that isn't in that boardroom at Hudsucker Industries. Like it doesn't like, it doesn't paint wearing Hudsuckers being this like benevolent deceased,

you know, god of of his domain or whatever. Like the scene where Norvil is hired and the guy's explaining about all the ways that his pay can be docked and it's basically do anything not as a as a like perfect machine and like in the Old Man flinging the envelopes in Yeah, like like the the Angel of Hudsucker comes in to save the day at the end. But you realize, like even in the way that his dialogue is written, that he is much more like Sydney Musburger,

the Paul Newman character, than he has like Marville. Like he says sure, sure and talk talks in such glowing terms about Paul Newman as like a you know, as like a pit bull or or you know, a ruthless businessman or whatever, and and that that is there's like a this topic element of Hudsucker Industries as and it

almost totally contains the movie too. I was thinking this watch through about how we never see Norville like have like a shitty apartment at the beginning and then like a super fancy apartment when he becomes the CEO, Like you never see anything outside of that building aside from like the juice bar or the I didn't really think about, Yeah, and like the like his status obviously elevates, but also like that the way they this movie plays with time

is really interesting because it's all supposed to take place in the course of a month. But you know, they're like that. I guess the scene where he's going down the elevator with Musburger and he's got like the top hat and the nice scarf and the like custom tailored suit, and Buzz notices that he's suddenly like a fancy man. I think that's supposed to happen on the same day

that he walked into the building. Oh, interesting, because I don't know how Buzz wouldn't have noticed that before, you know, and and presumably Buzz would have like seen a copy of the Manhattan Argus in between, which apparently was covering only Hudsucker related news in the month of December, right, Yeah, because because they start at the beginning of December, and they like, the board has this problem that they need to solved by the beginning of the financial year. Oh

that's right. They set up the date at the beginning. Yeah, but that's I kind of had forgotten it was a stock scam until I rewatched it. Yeah, it's a real game stock type story. Um. Another bit, like, I love how the Cohens have so much subtle comedy in their movies. Um at the beginning when he goes to that job board and the job board is ticking through all the different jobs that are going to be there's so many funny jobs. One of them was bombardier, one of them

was sand hogs. And then when he's looking through the paper, there's there's one that is Cats meets Man, like m E a T. Cats meets I mean the Cats Meets Man. That was like almost exactly the part of the movie where my wife had started to look at look at all these funny job listings. Yeah, I could picture Rachel just be like, Yeah. Emily doesn't like the Coen Brothers that much. She loves Fargo and a couple of others,

but generally she's not really down with it. She hates that they mistreat animals and almost all their movies this is a rare movie where they don't know that I don't think there's an animal death, and this one maybe think Cats Cats Meats Man might be their own their little nod to the fact. Yeah, I mean, I I don't blame her, like I think that they they're a strong flavor, you know, and if it doesn't taste good

to you, like I wouldn't. I wouldn't try and force this on somebody that was resistant to it, unless she was like my spouse and happened to be sitting on the couch next to me. I got a lot because we're watching something else, and I was like, oh, shoot, I gotta watch this movie for movie crush tomorrow. I'm sure that one over well, Sorry, Rachel. Another scene that really cracked me up because they're so not afraid to

do some really dumb things comedically. That or is some of my favorite kind of humor is really dumb humor. And uh, the double stitch pants scene, Oh my god, that gets me. When he's like, sir, I've got you. I've got you by then, and then they flashed back to that Italian suit maker and you know, the pants are ripping and he's going back and forth remembering that

he cheeped out and just got the single stitch. Yeah, And then they had the other little insert where he goes, he's just such a nice guy, I'm going to give him the double stitch anyway. That's the nicest, strongest stitch.

It's so dumb, and I can just see the Coen Brothers just like kind of tickled pink when they're writing something that's silly, I know, And I love that Paul Newman is like mad that he got the double stitch, even though it's saving his life, like he's gonna in real life he would have gone back and like, you know, chew the guy out or something crucially not so manned though that he doesn't take Norville to get his suits made by the same guy. Right, Oh, yeah, that's true.

And it's funny because like the movie setting like the late fifties, but these are all very forties style suits. It is a little confusing. It seems very forties, but it's it's almost nineteen sixty, I think, right, yeah, it's it's the nineteen fifties, seven to fifty eight. I think is the is the New Years that it celebrates. It feels a little out of time. Yeah, yeah, And I'm

wondering why they did that. Actually, I think it's intentional because it's like it's not about like like the movie is the Circle, right, it's the like it starts and ends at the same moment, and it it's like much more about karma and the wheel of fate than it is about like talking about a specific time in business. History or something like that, like Norville. Norville is much more a victim of the wheel of faith than he is like a guy who like went and and did

a thing intentionally. Do I need to say these three words been film studies paper it was gonna happen. I mean, this is not I couldn't claim that as an original observation, just stuff that I've I've read people talking about with this movie. But like I think, I think it's in the movie, so it's it's fair to bring up. No, of course, And and like I was saying at the beginning, it definitely is a screenwriting, one on one type of movie.

I mean the character arcs and the obstacles and the plot points hitting uh, it is a real rags to riches to rags kind of thing, um in you know, normal, Like it's interesting because he's handling it well, I think, and it is even humble at first, but there's there's no movie there, Like you've got to you've got to have him get too big for his bridges and and have that stumble, you know, and also just all of the like detail that is attendant to all of that.

Like I think that that's the thing that always impresses me about this movie, Like every every watch through, I'm like, oh, like they built the whole mail room. They showed all of the like vacuum tubes that go throughout the building.

They got, They've got the whole newsroom at the Manhattan Argus and the editor's office, like build as beautiful sets with hundreds of extras filling them out, and like all of these things are are so rich and detailed that it's like it's a it's it's like the feat is that it's like a beautifully built world. Like sometimes I

just want to visit the world of the Hudsucker Proxy. Yeah, and they do that for I mean, you can see where they spent their money, because that mail room scene is is really impressive, and that's that's the only thing they kind of shot down there, right, Yeah, they even go back down there. I think that I think that

that's the last time. And yeah, like it's kind of it's kind of hinted at later in the film when the when the Hula Hoop is a big success and some mail room guys are like dumping out sacks of mail on President Barns as desks. But but yeah, I don't think we go back down there, and and then like I think that that's like the other part of it is that like he's not a very like moral character, you know, like he doesn't he's not like fighting for

the for the little guy. Like he doesn't really give give a damn about those people in the mail room. Once he gets his success, he's like happy to have it for himself. And and and like I think that like we can kind of see ourselves in that character in some ways, like and and in a way that like we as the audience maybe like don't love and and I think that that's I think that's where the like satire and the like and the like critique of capitalism as a machine comes in to this film. Yeah,

I mean it's definitely there. I think the Coen Brothers, um, they're not the most like, uh, they're not statement filmmakers really know, but but I think you do find that stuff sprinkled throughout. And this is clearly the fact that the whole plot is around a stock scam. I don't think that's an accident. I think there is a bit of an indictment on on corporate America and greed. But they're they're just not interested in that stuff. They're much more interested in being goofy and fun and making a

fun movie. I think, yeah, making a big brown fun movie, big round fun movie. I love it. I don't think I told you this. I saw. The last thing I did before coronavirus was I went on a little mini concert tour with my friend and Philly d C in New York to see Bonnie Prince Billy and Jonathan Richmond. And we ended up at town Hall in early March a year ago, almost exactly a year ago in New York. Yeah, town Hall for a show. I think I said you

performed there once? You did? Yeah, performed there once? That's right, Yeah, Josh, and I did show there. You read that show I was. I don't think we knew each other then? What you didn't just pay to come to see a fucking show, did you? I don't remember how I got there. I did see that show though, very interesting. Yeah, do we not know each other then? I think we'd like, like

we weren't good pals. Yeah, we weren't pals, but okay, yeah, well, uh Joel, I'm in line, this terrible, terrible booze line, and uh fucking Joel Cohen and his wife are walking right by me and sort of commenting about this line, and I froze and they walked by, And I've never been more upset to this day that I didn't like, why didn't I say, hey, man, come on, like I'm buying your drinks and your standing in front of me. You don't have you don't have to talk to me

for the next five minutes. Like it's fine, but like I I owe you one, so go ahead and sneak in here. And I'm sure his wife would have been like, oh, of course, and he probably would been like, oh god, this guy. That's very funny. The biography of the Cohen Brothers that I I like, I reread The Hudsucker Proxy

chapter two to get ready for this record. The author of that biography has a very similar story where he was at like the Edinburgh Film Festival or something like that, and like at a table with a bunch of screenwriters and filmmakers and the Cohen Brothers were there, but he was like talking to somebody else and like looks back on that moment with regret because like they were there to promote the Hudsucker Proxy and it was like a kind of like huge moment in their careers and he

just didn't know that he was going to write a biography of them. One day, my friend worked with them

on Haile Caesar and it was a little disappointing. They weren't jerks at all, but he just said he thinks so much of them, and I think wanted them to just be super friendly and outgoing and like hanging with the crew, and he just said they were just really business like, didn't really hang out with the crew much, weren't weren't abusive or jerks or anything, but just you know that thing you build up in your head, like you know, like we're all going to be best friends

on this job, and it didn't. They just they're just not like that. He said. They were pretty serious guys and kind of get in and out and do their thing. But you know, yeah, I mean it is what it is, like they are like at the stature as creatives where you like, hope, oh what if they noticed me and like you could be my little protege or something. I know, and I know I should have just bought him a drink.

So it's still so mad. One of the kind of things that they butted heads with Joel silver on with this movie was they wanted Ethan to be Norville Barnes. They like, they kind of wrote the part for Ethan Cohen. Oh, really interesting, and they did a screen test and I would love to see that footage. I'm sure I'm sure that it's been destroyed or something, because, I mean, Joel Silver like makes so much fun of it in interviews. He's like, give me a break, Like Ethan Cohen could

not carry a movie like we needed stars. We're spending thirty millions sweched to make this. It's a very broad at least the way Tim Robbins did it too, was very broad and at times even slapsticky. Yeah, and Ethan Cohen is not that that'd be very strange. It's it's hard to picture and and I think, I mean, I think Tim Robbins is so funny in the part and and does such a great job that it's it's it's really hard for me to picture anyone else's Norville Barnes.

I think you kind of stole the show, like it's it's nobody else's role. So but yeah, I saw um, I saw waiting for Guffman in New York at the Angelica years ago when it was out and Robbins and Surrandon we're in front of me and we ended up in in uh at urinals beside each other taking a leak afterward, and I was like, I kind of feel like I need to take a peek. Well, speaking of Tim Robbins and peeking. Have I told you my Tim

Robbins story. So we lived in a an apartment, my wife and I before we were married, living in up Artman in Williamsburg, Brooklyn with another couple. I think I see where this is going. I didn't have it. We didn't have a swinging thing with no no, no, go ahead. I'll tell you if I was right. We had a We had a backyard with this apartment that we shared with another apartment unit and a store. There was like a furniture store next door that's sold like really high

end furniture that had access to the backyard. And the deal with the landlord was like we could all use the backyard as long as we didn't trash it, like everybody could use it. Um And I guess Tim Robbins went to this store to buy something one day and like a high enough ticket item that like some negotiation

was happening, and he was like walking. We were sitting in our apartment like watching TV and looked out the window into the backyard and Tim Robbins and a salesperson were like kind of walking around talking turkey with each other in our backyard. And we're like, that's Tim Robbins about furniture, about nature. And we had like a we had like a screen door onto the backyard. And he walked up to the screen door and like put his hands to the side of his face to black the

light and look looked into our apartment. Get out of here, Tim Robbins. Did you say anything. We didn't. We just I don't know if we could see us or not. But we're like all kind of star struck. Yeah, I mean, what do you do? What do you do? Oh? New York. It's the best. It's so weird. On any given day, you can peek it, Tim Robbins. Tim Robbins can be in your backyard and there's nothing you can do about it. I mean, let's talk about Paul Newman again, um a

little bit. He's He's Paul Newman and this is uh, I mean, this is towards the end of his career. I didn't look up to see how many movies he did after this. I feel like he did a lot. I mean did he he it's so great in this role. It's kind of against type for him to be the kind of like like totally heartless still in in a movie, but he's great. He is. He's still so charismatic in

the role. And there's so many like funny little details about his character, like when Norville meets his wife and then like we realized later that that's the woman that Wearing Hudsucker was in love with but kind of ignored because he was so focused on success, Like like like Paul Newman is the vice president of this company because he was like fractionally less work obsessed than Wearing Headsucker, which like kind of makes him like a slightly more

endearing character in retrospect. Yeah, and just the balls to sort of cast this legend, I mean, yeah, that was a big swing um and like the that they've ever worked with at the time, you know, oh for sure. And and but like he had an a ton of fun on this movie, Like he said that really he said that it was like the most fun he'd had since he'd been in slap Shot. Oh, My god, isn't that amazing? Isn't it an amazing quote? Wow? So he was in Uh, he was in this, He was in

a few more. He was in Nobody's full twilight Road to Perdition had to have come after this, right, yeah, Road to Perdition and like one more and then did some voice work. But you know, definitely in the twilight of his career as Musburger, and he he still just looks great. I mean he was always my mom's biggest crush. She was always just in love with Paul Newman and

just impossibly handsome. I mean he was in his probably seventies here, and like, you know, I had a shirt off in that one scene, and I'm like, god, damn it, Paul Newman looks is ten times the man I am. Yeah, in his old age Rachel put down her phone when when he was shirtless. For sure. Yeah, it's just a

good guy. Like I mean, every story I've ever heard about Paul Newman is that um and obviously all his great charity work, Like you know, he's a good dude, but very very down to earth guy and easy to work with and just sort of a throwback to the you know that those great early days of the film

industry with that star power. Yeah, and and really like brings his a game for this part in a in a way that like I don't think you needed to you know, like, yeah, he's he's already Paul Newman like that, there's not a lot more that he needs to say as a as a performer, but like still like doing the work. And like the other thing I read was that he didn't love the scene with the with the Taylor because his knees were visible and he didn't like the way his knees looked. And it was so sweet

that he just like had a little self consciousness. I don't like my knees, I don't like my funny that that shot of him and during the time stop seeing where he's he's frozen, but that and it's clearly I'm holding the look. Yeah, it's not a freeze frame at all. He's just following him and being very stick because they need to push the camera in. Yeah, yeah, that's so great. And then uh, plexiglass. I had it installed last week, Like you knew something was going to happen when that

guy takes off across the table. Incredible, Every every guy in the in the boardroom is like incredible casting. Yeah, and you know, the not counting the mezzanine guy, the the guy that's giving the presentation about how they're loaded at the beginning, like and is just amazing. Um. Also like just so people don't get mad at us and say, how could you know what? Mentioned Bruce Campbell. Bruce Cambell is also in this movie. Not a very big part,

but he's you know, he's great. He's dashing and he really fits like we Bruce Campbell would have done more stuff, like more Smitty's would have been great, especially at this era of his career. Yeah. Yeah, I guess it's that he was never that leading man like he was in the Evil Dead movies. But I don't know, he had he had the look of like a big star. I wonder if his involvement has to do with Sam Raimi because Sam Raimi was the second unit director. I wonder

if he directed those scenes. Also. I think, I mean they were all buddies from back in the day, Ramy and Campbell and the commins, uh you know, Frame mcdormant was living with Holly Hunter and Jason Alexander. I think they were all roommates. I know, like it's just nuts to think about this, this small group of friends that all ended up being huge. I'll also not hear the end of it if I don't bring up John Mahoney as the editor of the City of the City pages

at the Manhattan Argus. He's full John Mahoney so good. Um. I always asked the question, where do you remember where you were when you found out John Mahoney was gay? I was in my basement right now talking to you. I did not know that. Yeah, it's it's a I don't think I knew that. One of my favorite, one of my favorite character actors in Hollywood, and uh, and like he he is, like he had this like secret life that like I feel like nobody knows about. Wow, I don't know if I knew that. I feel like

I'm hearing that for the first time. But I'm also feeling that maybe you told me that already a couple of years ago or something, but it basically never stopped talking about. It's the greatest and we're just like in awe of the fact that that like has has escaped the public attention. Yeah, because he should be a gay icon.

I know, I feel like he kind of is, but like the straight world just doesn't know about it, right right, that's sad whenever I hear about that stuff that people you know, have to keep all that ship secret, and especially from his era. You know, well, now Fraser's like apparently being rebooted or something, and and like, I just don't think I think that, I think you need John Mahoney for that. He passed away to though, didn't he Yeah, sad, I'd like see Frasier again though, I guess, so get

the aisles back in there, it'll be fine. Yeah. I knew John mahoney first from say Anything the Cameron Crow movie where he played Ione Sky's father. Yeah, that was definitely my first introduction to him. And then of course in in Barton Fink, you know, one of the great all time roles. Totally. Uh maybe I brought that up on the on the Barton Fink episode. We'll have to go back into the movie archives and listen. Someone will probably point it out, like you dummy said, the same thing,

that's his that's his pocket. Fact. The listeners always no more and they than the host. That is definitely true. Always. Uh, well, do do you have anything else on your lists for this man, I feel like we really covered it. Um, this is a favor of mine, something a film I revisit a lot more than some of the other Cohen Brothers, Like I think that a lot of their other movies are better movies, like Objectively Raising Arizona is a better movie. But I watched Hudsucker Proxy more often, and um, and

I think it's I think it's the world building. I think it's a place I like to visit because it just feels so fully realized, and I like that's something I'm drawn to in all kinds of media. And I think it's a real achievement, Like I it like watching it this time, I was like, what if the Cohen

Brothers did a movie in a sci fi context? Like I feel like this amount of world building like makes me believe that they could in a way that like that would be as as great as Blade Runner, which was the movie that they screened for their art department before they shot this. They were like to feel as

in this world as we do in Blade Runner. Wow. Well, and this is Taylor made for you too, because it's got great suits and wardrobe and great furniture and like all the things that I know that you have a deep appreciation for I love this stuff. It's it's wonderful. I mean they I don't know. I think Cohen Brothers movies can almost be divided up into a few different buckets. Um, and the period peace bucket is is one. They haven't done a ton of contemporary films, and it's always a

little weird when they do. I like them, Like, we'll get to these, but I'm I'm always on record as being big fans of Intolerable Cruelty and burn after reading and uh, certainly No Country, and you know they once they started doing like westerns. But um, I do love their period stuff. Man, there's something about and Fink and Meluch Crossing and this and oh brother that just like such a rich world. There's just a couple of genres that I hope that they like get to on their

dance card. What else. I mean, like they've done horror somewhat like I think Blood simple simple as a horror movie, but like I like a really like like a monster movie almost is like is like something that's interesting to think about, Like what would they do with that? Wow? I know that Joel is doing his own thing for the next movie, for the first interesting. Wow, it's it's gonna be a half as good it might be. You never know, Yeah, I'll never know because it didn't mind

that drink. Yeah, you could have. You could have been the screenwriter that. All Right, dude, Well this is a lot of fun. It's always great seeing you. And let's not wait for six months or whatever. Let's do this again in a couple of months or so. Absolutely, I'm I'm here for it, man, every every time you offer, I am available. All right. I love that, Thanks, Bud Cleater.

Movie Crash is produced and written by Charles Bryant and Meel Brown, edited and engineered by Seth Nicholas Johnson, and scored by Noel Brown here in our home studio at Pontsty Market, Atlanta, Georgia. For I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.