Filmmaker Series: Adam Pranica on The Master

like beating the shoot out of himself. And I'm almost done with it and I've I've really enjoyed the experience. I think it's a it's a very fun book to read, and it seems like the first of a series that he's writing because this is his first four movies. Is the autobiography, it's his his youth up to the first four and I'm expecting there to be uh yeah, yeah,

a sequel. So I really like it. That's interesting. That makes me want to go through and break his career down into four film sets if he sticks with that, although he made since he's covered his childhood, might bought off more movies on this next one. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's a it's funny to hear he really gives no fox and I think that's been on, that's been obvious for a long time. But like he lets it fly on guys, guys like James Woods and a bunch

of yeah, that's just great. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And so The Doors a movie that we watched for Friendly Fire, and I had I wish that I had read this book before we did that episode, because there were some interesting nuggets in there. I listen to that process. Yeah, I remember it. Well, that's a good one. Um. I read a lot of We're gonna have you on the show next week? Next week? Is that next week? Or no? We we don't even have a date lined up. All right, we got going? We really do. I want to get

you on that show. No, no no, no, we'll do it. Um. I've been reading. I've read a lot of biographies, a lot of rock biographies and music biography. So I think that Oliver Stone that lines up. Well, maybe I'll check that out. I'll send it to you when I'm done, okay, hardback, Yeah, of course, I'll send you a little care package. How does that sound like? Drugs and Oliver Stone books. I

mean it would be appropriate, wouldn't it. Yeah, I mean, how many Oliver Stone books have been shipped with drugs in the past, like a few months, probably a few Oliver Stone classically. It's like, you know, I only did cocaine socially. It was never a problem for me to quit. Is that really what he said? Yeah? I mean, here's the thing, like this is this is eighties Oliver Stone talking about it, like around the time he won the the Oscar and he sets it down a little while

after that. So I don't believe that's in reference to any more recent cocaine binges. But at the time, that's what he said about his habit. I could see that actually, and I'm not I'm not condoning casual use of cocaine, but I could see Oliver Stone being one of those guys that like partied hard with certain crowds and while he was doing a movie maybe and then and then

putting it away. Eighties cocaine just seems like a different, different cat, different vibe maybe, So who knows, you know what, I want to keep all this stuff because this is movie related. So I'll say, hey, welcome to movie crush. I'm here with Adam Pranica, my old friend, Uh to talk to continue our series on P. T. Anderson with another in the line of difficult movies with unlikable characters called the Master. That's why you have me on for

this series. Difficult person, very unlikable. You're the easiest and you're the most likable. Are you kidding me? It's good to see your face again, man. Yeah, it's been a while since we've done the show together. I know it's Uh, I feel like there will be blood was maybe too long ago. Uh, and these are you know you call it movie therapy. I think, yeah, just get our heads right.

I did call it movie therapy because it it feels so good to talk about such bad people for a couple of hours and then UH, have a couple of drinks with you in the process. Yeah. So what do we drinking tonight? What are you drinking? I am drinking a tequila soda in uh in the classic proportions. My classic proportions is about three quarters Cosumi goos blanco tequila and a little splash club soda twist of lime and what the soda is just to give it a little

fizz and a great, big, great big Stanley double walled cup. Uh, so you go, cos Ami goes blanco. I do for for the for the splash of soda purposes. I think it's just a delicious sipping tequila. It's been. It's been my favorite for a long time. It is, man, I have the I mean, Emily likes the blanco. I like the gold. Uh she looks the gold too. But yeah, it's really just tasty. I think the reason I like

the blancos because I like it cold. If I were drinking the darker tequilas, I would just fill a glass with it with probably no ice. And it's really hot here lately. So yeah, what's going on out there? I've heard? Is it like it was onus? It was like one eighteen over the weekend? Are you serious? Not insanea mon not insantam Anica. A little more eastward, a little more inland, it's called Uh it got terrifically hot, but not much cooler. In Santa Monica. It was around a hundred Jesus man,

that's hot. I don't think. I mean, you know, Atlanta, it's just hot as hell. But you got that wet heat though, Yeah, it's wet heat. But we've got smoke heat now. Yeah, I don't think we've had a hundred this summer even heat index. I don't think we've gotten up that high. Yeah, but you know it'll it's starting to cool down like a tiny, tiny bit, but it stays hot through you know, indo October generally in Atlanta. Bet getting good fall though. Yeah. Your your leaves are

gonna change any moment. You know, they're starting to fall a little bit, but it should be a good one. Listen to this old man talking about foliage. Yeah, this sounds sounds like a Coen Brothers movie title. So I'm drinking Gin and Tonic. You texted me what am I drinking? And because of the Master, I made the joke that we should drink rocket fuel and paint thinner. If you haven't seen the movie, this will all be clear pretty

soon why we made that joke. But I'm drinking Hendricks and Tonic, a big fat double and a big glass so I didn't have to go up again. In a Yetti mug. It's like a yetti coffee mug, but they're giant, uh, and a couple of basically half of a lime squeezed in there. Fever treat fever treat tonic. You hipped me to the Yetty family of products a year or two ago. I a type of cup I kind of turned my nose up to for a time. But I'm a believer

now those things work. I'm telling you, man, I'm a big fan of iced water and just generally anything I put ice in, I wanted to stay that way. And if you care about their thermodynamics at all, you're gonna be a fan of the Yetti products. Yeah, you can throw ice water in that thing, put it on your nightstand, and then the next morning you've got ice water. It's great. You not only have ice water, you don't have a sweaty cup on your nightstand making all kinds of unsightly rings.

That's right. So Elaine is not mad at you, and you don't want that, No, it's yeah, it's all about reducing the chances of of your wife being mad at you.

We do a pretty good job of that, Adam. I think, uh so, Hey, the talk of rocket fuel brings a question to mind, and I hope you don't mind me throwing a bomb in the right in the beginning of your show, What's what's the worst thing you've ever drank alcoholically, because I think there's a lot of scenes like like a a shot react, like a reaction to drinking something terrible is like a great You get that a bunch

in this movie. And it really made me think of like, what's the worst shot I've taken or what's the worst drink I've ever had? Well, you know, I've got a really quick and easy answer, to be honest. At first, I was like, wait a minute, what could that be? And then two things bring to mind, and one that I know you've had because it's become a maximum tradition. But my lord, uh describe it. It's wormwood liqueur. Is that that's yeah, it's it's all the quote unquote fun

of absinthe, but it's like amplified herbaceous nous. It is just so hyperry. Is that what absinthe tastes like like absinthe? For it's it's wormwoody flavor. But this is like wormwood and a whole bunch of other flavors in it. It's it's a lot it's allowed to take on. And I don't find it particularly Bernie. Okay, well no it's not Bernie. It's just that tastes it stays with you for a while. Yeah, it's a taste that lingers. I just literally thought of

the worst ad joke ever. It just popped into my head, and I don't even though if I should say it. You got you have to now. Oh god, this is a window into how my brain works. We're talking about absinthe, and my joke that popped into my head was you know, I've had absinthe, but last time I had it, it got it was really gassy because you know what they say, absinthe makes the farts grow stronger. Yeah, that's something you should have kept to yourself. How did that just pop

into my head? That's uh So, the worst thing I've had is malort as far as that after taste, it's really bad. And it's only the only reason I ever have it is at Max Fun when everyone's passing the bottle around, which is very risky these days. Boy, it really is passing a bottle around a room of people. Uh so that and uh, you know when you first start drinking in college and stuff, or that's when I

started drinking. But whenever that was, you experiment with some really weird things and I drank I had one really really long Bad Night with Mad Dog quote unquote wine, Yeah, threw up bad stuff passed out in the freshman storm. For me in college, I was I was definitely looking for proof, right Like I didn't know what I want at all. I know. All I knew is that I wanted it to be strong, and so like the Mad Dog is strong, the the Hurricane ice forties or strong.

It's like one of the many like off brand mall liquors that you could get in a in a forty ounce format at the time. I don't even know if they still make it anymore, not that, but like Schlitz and cul used to go down that road totally. But like liquor wise, I would always want like not the not the eight proof, but the one proof, like if I'm if I'm giving an older person money to buy me something like I wanted to be strong and those

were often like really big mistakes. Um Yukon Jack comes to mind as one of the one of the bottles I used to get from time to time, Goldschlager. I do, I do remember that gold Schlager after shock Avalanche was the was the was the cools of of that type of liqueur, right, Minty flavor and after shock Man, Yeah, mistakes were made, and I used to drink like uh. I thought it was very refined when I started drinking seven and sevens, you know, yeah, which is funny. You

really need a sherpa at that age, don't you. Someone I was never I was. I think I was always around the youngest person of the group, so I never got to become the guy who bought for other people the way that my friends often were. But I really I feel like I would have had the heart to to be the liquor serpa for someone to be, like, you know, the eight proof absolute is actually better and more mixable than the red label one hundred that you're getting.

Trust me on this. Yeah. If if you and I don't make an animated cartoon soon called Booze Srpa, then we're doing the wrong thing in life. Yeah, I mean, animations the only thing in production right now. Let go

for that. Uh. And So the reason you mentioned that worst thing we've ever had is because of the Master and the fact that a really big not big but a substantial part of this movie has to do with this character of freddie Quell walking Phoenix's character drinking these homemade chemical drinks literally made out of rocket fuel or paint thinner, I imagine. I mean, those are the only two kind of brands you see. I think he drinks lysol,

just straight up liquid lysol. I love like you. You see the first moment of this early on, and then I feel like it's it's repeated throughout the film. But one of the moments that that confused me almost was that when he's working as the photographer and he's in the he's in the room where he exposes the film, and he's using tongs to to muddle some limes. I was like, Oh, this guy really he started like dedicating himself to the craft. This looks like a real cocktail

he's making. No, he's just making it out of photomat chemicals. Totally, dude, He is drinking developing chemicals. He's drinking stop bath. Yeah. Did you ever do any of that dark room dark room stuff? Not drinking it? But I love the idea of like improvised alcoholic beverages being called dark room stuff, and I think that that should be that should be than for us. Do you ever go to dark room? Jack? Did you ever develop pictures or anything? Did you ever

do that? No? No, I never did. Yeah, it's a lot of fun, and I could obviously you wouldn't want to drink any of that stuff. Even that stuff is just it is nasty, raw chemical solutions. Like what does that do to you? It's it's stuff you want to wear a mask two two use right because the fumes are so intent. No, you don't have to wear a mask in there, but it's pretty stinky. And like, uh, what I wondered through all this was because the character

of um Lancaster Dodd, another great named character from P. T. Anderson. Uh, he really takes a shine to this booze that he's making. And I wonder, like I never went down the road of experimenting with like robatus in blasting and all that stuff that I saw other people doing, but I think it might be something like that where it's like it's not drunk, even it's a different feeling. Yeah. I was never into purple drink myself, nor did I really know

anyone who was. When I was in college. For us it was very specifically booze beer or drugs, like actual drugs, not over the counter drugs. And that's so weird, right, Like why would we have risked taking ecstasy from a source that you can't corroborate instead of yeah, I mean, none of us are thinking clearly at the time, so yeah, I mean I felt myself just trying to make an argument that drinking robotusts and in large quantities is really

bad for you, but ecstasy is just fine. I'm not going to make that argument, but I do know that, like, there were kids in the grades below me in high school that were drinking row with us in and doing glade hits like sprink glade through a towel and then inhaling it. And we'd never messed with any of that stuff. Man, that was like, I don't know, that just seems stupid.

I grew up with really painful migraines, like debilitating put you on the floor, make you throw up kind of migraines, and so I as I grew older, I got the migraines went away, but my fear of headaches really grew. And I think that was one of the main reasons I never wanted to funk around with that stuff. Was stuff like like inhaling other things and and uh and drinking super high proof alcohol like it was hangover almost instantaneously and I really resisted anything that that would do that.

I really tried my best not to endure a hangover for that reason. Yeah, it's interesting how it's played in this movie though, because is alcoholism is a big part of Freddy's character. Um, that's the I mean, he's he's got a lot of problems, let's be honest, but his alcoholism is definitely definitely one of them. And then, uh, Phil Hoffman's character, Lancaster Dodd is he's into it, but like you get the feeling that he has to keep

that pretty quiet. You know, he's so amused by Freddie, like off the bat, and I love how ambiguous that relationship is even throughout the film, right, Like there's the it's pretty clearly like a a project he sees in him, Like if he could fix Freddie Quell, that would be a tangible example of his greatness, right instead of just the book writing and the and the quote unquote cult

that he's constructed. Like if he could get through to him, that would be proof that he's got he's got the supernatural powers that that maybe his believers believe him to have. But also like there's a way that Philip Symore Hoffman looks at Joaquin Phoenix in this movie that is like it's so warm. Yeah, it's warmth. And I think you could read it as romantic love in certain scenes, but if it's not that, it's like the sort of warmth that you want any of your closest pals to see

you with. It's I found myself really taken by it. And it might just be because I love and miss Phillips you Moore Hoffman as much as I do, and that like I really really gravitate towards that stuff. Yeah. No, that definitely played in my mind too. Um was missing him and how like kind of charming and lovable he can be at times in this movie. Um, but he does.

And you know, there's plenty of speculation through critics online about whether or not it was homo erotic and romantic, and I read it as more of a how you would look at a really old friend of yours or something and he you know, at some point where we need to talk about the fact that he does say that they were they were together in the past life and you finally get the story at the end, which maybe we'll save that, but uh, that maybe that was what it was, was that He looked at him as

like this guy that I love, that I've been through so much with, but he was someone that he just met. Yeah, you know that's a great observation because that's there's some repetition of that throughout the film, Like I feel like I know you. I'll figure it out eventually, definitely know you from somewhere. Yeah, when was you saw this in the theater? I take it. I did. I went out to see it. It's screened in seventy in Seattle, so I made sure I got out to see it during

one of those screenings. I think I did too. Actually, Uh, I think I went with my friend Scotty. And you know, it's a beautiful, big movie in that seventy millimeter. Uh. I think he shot it in sixty five, just and exhibited in seventy, which I didn't know quite was a thing. Um, how does that work? As a ex projectionist, I can tell you that you want those millimeters between sixty five and seventy four your soundtrack. Those are the those are

going to be your soundtrack waveforms in the cellulos. Because you sixteen millimeter, then it should be thirty two, but it's thirty five for the soundtrack, Is that right? I don't know how it works for sixteen millimeter, Okay, I will say as a projectionist for thirty five millimeter and for seventy millimeter, that's how it worked, all right, So

it looked great. I mean this he's uh at think, especially after there will be blood or these two pair together, he is really at this point in his career come into his own as just an absolute master of the visual that you're seeing on screen and book. You know, it's all that stuff look look great and fine. But these two man is where he goes like into john Ford territory of like some some of the all time

masters of like the visual aspects. It's so beautiful and it's you know, like like john Ford was so good at like territorial like wide open space gorgeousness. But the master has so many different types of settings. Right, There's there's on the ocean, there's on the beach, there's on the boat, there's inside the boat. There's inside that old timey house. Yeah, there's there's inside the that what I what's probably a mansion in England. Yeah, so many different

places made to look beautiful. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's kind of broken down. Almost each act is has its own sort of main setting. I mean, that whole first third is at sea with a little New York, and then that whole middle chunk is at that house. Uh and I guess where is that Is that in northern California. I'm not really sure where it's supposed to Uh yeah, I mean, yeah, well it's supposed to be Philly, I guess,

but I don't know if they shot it there. But then that last bit is Phoenix and the desert stuff in the salt flats. But it's an interesting visual. I mean, some gorgeous shots, Like all the stuff at sea is amazing. That shot of him passed out on the top of the boat when they're throwing sh at him is just unbelievable.

The shot of the the Sea Org and I'm gonna mix in scientology stuff because let's be honest, the one of the Sea Org boat going under the Golden Gate Bridge with the sun going down just unbelievable, so beautiful, so great. I it's it's unfair, really to watch a

film like this right now. I mean not to date this episode at all, but not a lot of brand new movies are coming out right now or or in the short term, and it I think it's one of the things that makes this project we're doing so gratifying, is is returning to things that are great and remembering

how awesome it is to see great movies. Yeah. God, the shot in the um, like the money he has in the artists that he can hire to create these worlds, um that shopping mall, the department store where he takes on work as a photographer, and that long tracking shot with the floor model just sort of weaving in and out of stuff, and just the art direc action is just incredible, Dude, It's amazing. Bob Elswit is like frequently Paul Thomas Anderson's camp for his movies, and he was

not in this one. Did you read about who this guy was? I figured, yeah, I figured it was too. His name is Mahailamare Jr. He's Romanian and he had a just a couple of credits before the Master. Imagine being Mahai and getting and getting the call. How did

he get it? Looks like he did a couple of couple of films, but like in two thousand nineven couple of films and then uh, and then he gets the call to do the master, Like that's a lot of trust for a P. T A. But this is also I feel like a version of Paul Thomas Anderson that that has become way more interested in moving his own cameras around, in in creating his own compositions, and taking a heavier hand in the camera in the camera department specifically than maybe he ever has. And this is like

a trend for him throughout his career. Yeah, I mean that that just one shot. I mean he's known for his sort of long, long, single take shots, but they usually entail sort of like the stuff in Boogie Knights, like the camera doing these crazy things like going up on a cherry picker and moving around. But this was just a very sort of elegant, uh steadicam shot I guess,

kind of weaving through this department store. You know what's insane about P t A. One of the things is that like he's that director that sits underneath the camera and works with actors and looks at it at expression and and experiences it on a on a personal level. Like he's not a director who looks into the monitor and ship and that's it's crazy to think that he's getting these kind of compositions and sequences like what you're describing, and I'm not sure he's seeing that through the monitor.

He's looking over at his cinematographer and going, did we get it? And he's being told that they did. And what he's watching is is life. If it looks real in life, then it's good enough for him. And that feels so risky, it does. You know? I have not directed a movie, but I uh, I was going to at one point, and I was sort of been halfway through raising some money for a very small independent film and had written the script and I was going to uh do that that way. I was not going to

be in an attempt looking at a monitor. I wanted to be really near the camera and watching the scene play out in front of me. You want to be an actor's director? That seems to be really way to go. Yeah, um, I'll probably never know, but I mean, you've directed stuff,

what did you do? I mean, the the the seduction of doing it, like P. T. A Is has always been there, Like I, like I mostly did corporate stuff, but I still worked with professional actors barely often, and like I always wanted to give it that kind of juice. I always wanted to be an actor's director, and it's just it's hard. It's hard when you're not working with Hollywood budgets, and it's hard when you're not working with

Hollywood cinematographers. Like the level of trust that you get from working in a system like PTA has been able to I think allows for that kind of thing in a way that you and I could probably never experience it. I feel like it would be very stressful for you and I to sit cross a good beneath the camera and watch a scene unfold and just believe that it's getting captured in the way that you're seeing it. See. I think I would have a lot easier time because

I was not a camera guy. I would hire people that knew what they were doing and just say, like, I've trust that you're getting this and we'll look at it afterward. But I gotta I gotta stand here and watch these actors. I think it becomes so much easier when it's Bob Ellis went over your shoulder, Like I wouldn't even think about it. If you were him, it would be done. I mean, let's let's talk about these characters, maybe kind of one at a time Freddie Quell, the alcoholic,

sort of depraved. Um, there's nothing likable about this guy. It's really not the kind of character you see a lot in movies, as you're kind of protagonist in a way. Um, like I would argue it's his it's really about both these guys, but it's kind of his movie, even more than a movie about Lancaster Dodd. But um, just such a depraved, disgusting, troubled, troubled guy. We talk a lot on Friendly Fire about how much we respect an actor willing to give up their vanity for a role, and

this feels like that kind of role. This is a Joaquin Phoenix who had just come off of the weird art project of of what was that called I'm Not There? I think, oh, his like documentary thing. I think this was the first film he did after that. This was his return to think your professionalism, maybe i'd call it. And I think you could make the case right now in in the year twenty like, if you're drafting actors in a kind of fantasy actor draft, how is he not one of the top picks. He's I think he's

one of the greatest living actors we have. And I think This is an example of that. It's so much more than just uh an ability to read a line. It's like a totally inhabited character physically in a way that is repulsive. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good word. I kept saying disgusting, but repulsive is really the word I mean. And they set it up so well in the beginning with the navy stuff, drinking the rocket fuel. Um standing there before he jumps onto the sandcastle naked lady and

and has sex with her. Is when he when he's standing there all hunched over and he stands with his you know, he's he has that messed up shoulder and he really plays that up, makes those shoulders go forward, puts his arms on like sort of the back of his hips in his side, and just sort of snarls at the scene and and then just like gets in there and starts humping the sandcastle like in the first

five minutes of the movie. There's something like oddly familiar about him and his posture, Like I feel like, growing up, I knew I encountered old World War Two vets who with the high waisted pants, who were like bent over at the waist, who looked like this. Yeah, that's kind of true. It really feels real. Yeah, and it and it felt very uh he he very much looked like a guy from nineteen fifty um. And you know, he's he's an he's a guy who has the shoulder thing.

He's a guy who has his the scar or whatever. I'm not sure how that happened on his lip, the cleft pallette thing. Was it a cleft pallet? I wasn't sure. I think so. Yeah. But these are like both called traits that he has used his advantage in his career, um like in a big way. I think he's really

leaned into both of them. The I've always respected and been just horrified by an actor's willingness to change their body for a role, you know, like like the the Clooney and Sicario or the stallone in Copland where it's inverse, which is like an emaciated Joaquin Phoenix, Like you know what he looks like normally, and he's a beautiful person. But to see him folded in on himself and with the sunken cheeks and and the crazy eyes, it's it's

really incredible to see an actor do this to themselves. Yeah, and just his his acting in this movie is just incredible. It's unbelievable, Like you so understand who this guy is without being even able to understand, like on a personal level, like you don't identify, but you fully get who this dude is. It's so uh, it's so vital to have

Lancaster DoD look at him with love. And I think he's inserted into this story as soon as possible to cut off of viewers inclination to just dismiss Freddie Quell

right away. I think, like we get we get the beginning of the movie belongs to Freddie Quell, but I think before the of viewers sees him as an utterly lost cause, we get right up to that line, but then we get the affection from Lancaster DoD for him, and it's it stops it just short of of being irredeemable, because I think I don't think you could do two and a half hours with Freddy Quell unless you were at least on some level rooting for his redemption, right

And I think they're be a point of no return with him that that I think the film knows, and it's trying to position itself indefensive him, maybe using Lancaster dot as a way to to prevent you from hating him in an irredeemable way. See, I don't think I hated him, but I don't know if I ever rooted for him in the sense that I was thinking, you know, let's let's get this guy turned around, Like I didn't care.

I really didn't care about this guy being okay. It was to me more of a voyeuristic sort of study of you know, it's it's almost like watching bar Fly or something, or or thinking about like hanging out with Charles Bukowski is like irredeemable. Like that's not for me to say. All I know is I didn't I wasn't

rooting for him. Ever, let's try to let's try to rewind like the endings of Paul Thomas Anderson films, because when I saw this film for the first time, I was almost expecting a Freddie Quell lays in Amy Amy Adams lap in the end kind of end of Boogie

Night's style redemption for the character. Were you when you saw this film for the first time, were you expecting that kind of thing, or were you so turned off by Quell in the beginning that you were like, well, I'm just gonna watch this car crash for for two hours and and be entertained by two of the greatest living actors. I think I could have seen it. I don't know if I was hoping for it, but I think I definitely could have seen it going that way.

When he goes to England at the end, that could have been Marky Mark going or you know, I mean, this is just like all those other movies. It's a father son thing going on. Or I could have seen it going the way of Daniel plain View. I think I kept waiting for one of them to kill the other. Yeah, yeah, but none of his made it clear that that was on the table. He definitely did um but that. I think I was waiting for that to happen more than I was waiting for the Boogie Night's ending. But neither

one of him happened. I wonder to what extent he knew that in constructing the story, Like if he's playing with expectations in that way, maybe Yeah. I also think that P. T. Anderson doesn't think about an audience at all. I hope he doesn't. I don't. I hope he doesn't think of me for a second when we're done with this project. I would like someone to like tweet it to him maybe, but sure, I don't want to. Uh no,

I don't think he should be doing that. I want to point out, but yeah, I think he's he's he's doing his own thing at this point in his career. Like starting with Their Will Be Blood, I think we both agreed, was when he really um as sort of kind of risky as Magnolia wasn't and aspects, uh, he really kind of took a right turn. I think There Will Be Blood And then following following up this movie. It's crazy, it really is. Did either one of them win an Academy Award? It's so much more open ended

than his other films, it is. Did it win an Academy Award? Did either one of the guys? Did they get nominated for Academy Awards for this? Joaquin, Philip Symore, Hoffman, Amy Adams were nominated for Academy Awards? None of them won? All right, interesting, Amy Adams was good. I don't know

about Oscar Worthy. She was good. I mean, she was great, but there wasn't a ton Therefore, I love that boil happening inside her, like that coiled spring that you knew was there, and I think I think phillipsy Moore Hoffman also had that quality in this movie of like an ability to explode, and he explodes a couple of times

in this movie. Had Amy Adams also had that quality and in a way that I really appreciated, Like there were she was definitely a puppet master for Lancaster Dad in a very interesting way, in a way that the film does not deeply dive into, but you can tell. They give her a couple of scenes where where there is a there's a power to her. The hand jobs.

Oh yeah, you know. I mean, it's funny to like think about that scene, but I think that's really the sort of the point of it all was um, I mean, he is uh completely beholden to her in that scene. He feels he never feels more like a sort of broken old man than when he's standing there at the sink getting jerked off by his wife, who's sort of like you know the mom in that scene. Almost the way she's talking to him, it's a little creepy. Will you come for me? When you come for me? Like,

I mean, she's great. I don't know why I said she shouldn't have gotten nominated. Not it was very understated role, but that doesn't mean it was. Are you suggesting that that would have been a good a good real to show for her for her nomination, Like they throw to Amy Adams in the crowd, like clapping a couple of times. That's me. That's a powerful scene though, will never this

is the chat. One of the many tragedies of Philip Symore Hoffman's death is that, like we we won't get a film for film year after year competition of who's the greatest living actor? The way that like he could have gone back and forth with Paul Thomas Anderson films with Daniel day Lewis, like like was there a cut scene of Daniel day Lewis getting a hand job and will be blood? And could we possibly measure them against each other? Yeah? Yeah, man, I miss I miss him

so much. He was such a good actor. And I read up a little bit more today about his drug use and how he went out and it's just so fucking sad and tragic. Had a family and like this kind of secret addiction after being clean forever, I mean he was clean for twenty three years. Yeah, you can never let up with addiction. That's a. That's the thing our our friend John Roderick has said, it's a it's

a struggle every day there is. Speaking of the scene, I wanted to just emphasize how great the sound that Philips you more Hofmun makes if he's either in pain, like from taking a shot of some firewater coming sound, or like in the mattress Man commercial Punch Drunk Glove when he falls onto the ground that, Oh god, it's

so great. I so noticed that in this every time he took a drink of his moonshine for lack of a better word, and then when he when he when he finally came in the hand job scene, it was the exact same, like sort of painful release sound. It's one of my favorite sounds in the entire world. Is that so funny? It is so fucking funny. If if you're listening to this show and you haven't seen the mattress Man commercial from Punch Drunk Glove, it's a it's an extra feature on the DVD and you can see

it on YouTube. It's awesome. It's I'm not even gonna spoil it, just watch it. Yeah, it's great. I saw that. I had that I had that DVD back in the day. Um So the other thing with Freddie is his uh these fights that he gets in, these physical altercations ranging from and and each one sort of happens the same way. He is one provocateur. Each time he is not like he's starting it. He's not getting picked on. He always

just goes after these guys. And a lot of times I want to say for no reason that the guy in the photography studio, he just completely goes after, like

moving those lights in and like attacking this dude. I love how awkward and painful looking all of the fights are and that includes and that includes like the fight he gets into on the lawn with Lancaster Dad later, Like they're dirty and and awkward, and you hear like the slap sounds and like it's I have never been in in like a real fist fight, like in a

fight fight. Yeah, same here, But it seems like it seems like how they really are in this movie versus like the punching each other, like the fully sound, punched for punched rocky style fighting that so often we get in in movies. Yeah, these are very real and he you can tell that Joaquin as an actor is really fucking going for it. Like they're very physical and kind of brutal, although there aren't a lot of punches thrown.

Um that that fight in the department store early on really looked like it might have heard him in a couple of spots that guy is hitting him and throwing him. He kind of kicked his ass a little bit, which I love that that guy. Uh. And it's interesting. I read the New Yorker review from this movie and it said, um, something about and you know, the first time we meet Lancaster dott is when he gets his picture taken in the mall and attacks him. And I was like, that

wasn't Lancaster Dodd. And then it had a little asterisk and it had a note that said edit. I was told afterwards that this was in fact credited to another actor. And I think that pet Anderson tried to. I think he was clearly trying to make it seem like the same person. I was like, no, we what's that come? Like? You just fucking got that wrong, dude, Like just wait to wait to cover yourself. Yeah, it was pretty bad

because it was clearly just some other guy. Um. But the reason he love that it's sort of a like the most insane Jerry McGwire style quitting your job because he takes the girl with him. Yeah, he does actually grabs her hand any Um. The reason he gets in these fights though, is really interesting, Like this one was I think just some sort of that pent up rage

that he had as a as a person. But then the other ones were almost all in defense of Lancaster Dodd, and I got the feeling after like that last one when the Bill comes down to the basement and the book has been released that he wrote, and he's just literally just sort of criticizing, like, man, I think you should have just made it a pamphlet and it's too long and meandering and it doesn't make much sense, like he was offering a genuine critique as a fan of his,

And I started to get the impression that he was getting in these fights with these guys not because he was defending him, but because they were bringing to light what he really knows, which is that he's a fraud. And it made the truth. Yeah, it made him angry that he had he's been falling for it, and it

makes him feel good. Well, I mean to put it into a modern context, I think that is a reaction that a lot of people have towards uh, confronting uncomfortable truths right about their belief system even Uh, in no way could you brook any sort of criticism of of your beliefs if you're if you're Freddie Quell. There's such a tension drawn out in that scene, Chuck, where they're they're in that basement next to the printing press. But he walks him out, Yeah, here, let's go outside, let's

take a walk. And as he's taking the walk, the guy I had to put on the subtitles, but he was he was talking about what a great mystic. He is, one of the great mystics. So it's not like he was against him even And he gets him out there and just like throws him on the ground and basically

tries to like bury his head in the concrete. There's no faking this sort of of pain during a fight, Like, yeah, go ahead and like roll around on a sidewalk if you don't believe me, Like it's it's hard and it sucks. And there are so many scenes like this, and this fight scene is one of those examples. Like this looks so painful. I don't know how many takes you get out of actors stuff like this. It's two actors who

have have come to an agreement, you know that. Listen, we're we're gonna we're gonna go for it on this one and uh, and it's gonna hurt a little bit, Like, but this is what I mean. Want to be the guy who accidentally breaks Joaquin Phoenix's nose with a with an errant knee though, And that's that's the thing that feels so dangerous if you're if you're not a top line actor in a film and you're asked to like

go ahead and roll around with him. Yeah, totally. Um. And there are a lot of like pt Anderson kind of actors, sort of like there will be blood in this these people that just have a scene or two that have these great faces. Um yeah. And you know, it has a great regular cast like Jesse Plemons. And I didn't even know who Rommy Malick was at the time. I kind of forgotten that was neither. When he popped up, I was like, oh my god. There is Freddie Mercury, the the guy who plays Mr Moore, the guy who

speaks up at the meeting. Yeah, He's like what he's, he's, he's one of that guy like he's he's he's a guy with a great voice and a great face. You know, he's made a rear out of a great voice and a great face. Well he did. He's dead, Yeah, Christopher Revan Welch was it was in Silicon Valley is recently. Yeah, he's awesome. He narrated something too that I saw. He's narrated a bunch of stuff, but he was a prominent narrator of something, and I didn't I looked him up today.

I didn't realize that he'd very sadly died of young lung cancer in his mid forties. Brutal. Yeah, it's it's a weird thing about watching movies is like the acceptance so often, like the acceptance of death right, Like you're watching films from even the last decade, and to know that that a lot of these guys aren't around anymore is is awful. It's awful and amazing too to like have an artifact to appreciate them. But but it's sad too. It's sad at the same time. So they dot and

and quell meet um very much by happenstance. I mean, um Freddie Quell. Basically, I love that we're an hour into this and we're like, well, let's talk about when they meet. Well, we're jumping all around. It's not even we're going three hours tonight check no. Um. You know, he basically poisons this guy and and Selina's and takes off that great fucking shot where he's running, you know, across that that dirt field, being chased by those guys.

But he just happens to stow away on this ship like they meet by such happenstance, and he's so immediately taken into the fold um and then rises to the top as the sort of right hand man man. Even though there's a bunch of other people around, a bunch of other men that could have been in that position.

There was some connection there, um, And the only thing I could figure out was that he was sort of there's a very yin yang thing going on with these two guys, like he was He's the animal that he needed at his side in a way, this kind of

crazy pit bull. I love that we're given the task of stitching those two scenes together, right because there's kind of an elliptical edit we see, like one of low key My favorite compositions in the movie is is we're overwalking Phoenix's shoulder and we're racking the the focus back and forth like we're getting those beautiful uh the light is turning beautiful as we're changing the focal point between

the ship and Freddy Quell's shoulder. And then as soon as he hops on board in like a really elegant way avoiding detection, we wake up with him the next day in the bunk. And I love how we aren't given a specific story about how he's there or why he isn't kicked out, And I like that it's up to us to imagine what that scene was like. Between between the scenes, I mean, yeah, like at some point someone had to go to Dot and say, hey, listen to stowaway came aboard. But it's very I don't know.

I think you're right, like you didn't need that drama. Um. Another thing I wanted to mention in that shot, though I didn't notice it until I think it's the third time I've seen it. I didn't notice it until today. But when you see that first shot of the boat, the party's going on up top, but he's down on that below deck Lancaster Dot is having a cigarette, having a cool by himself, I think, or there may be one other person with him. Yeah, but it doesn't like

focus on him or anything. He's just sort of there, like you don't even know who it is yet at this point in the minor. Yeah, I love how non confrontational the film is about all of the ways that Lancaster Dot uses other people, like like the inference that the boat was not paid for in the end, that he ended up using the woman who owned the boat, as well as as the home that they had that that parlor party in later on, Like we're we're so indirect with our knowledge of those things. And I like

being given the respect as a viewer to put that together. Yeah, I mean this, nothing about this movie is very straightforward. I think a lot of critics, the ones who didn't

like it were kind of like, what was it about? Even? Yeah, And you know, there are arguments that it's it's a movie sort of about an acting exercise in a way, Um, there aren't these big character arcs that you're used to seeing where people change and they overcome the obstacle, and like he really throws all those conventions kind of about the door with this movie. I mean, as I'm gesturing towards you as a professional film critic that you are that I am on the on the hit podcast Friendly Fire.

I think it really it really blows up the film criticism industrial complex to make a film like this because I think so often you are looking for that meaning and what if, what if there isn't one. Yeah, I mean at the end of the movie, in that last scene, you you expect some kind of like he goes all the way to England. He's called on a telephone in the middle of an anty theater, which is great, and he goes to England and you get your your waiting

for that thing to happen, and it doesn't happen. And in fact, one of the great lines of the movie to me is Joaquin, I think it's sort of trying to make good a little bit and says, you know, maybe in the next life, like kind of a throwaway saying, and he goes very seriously, if we meet in the next life, you will be my mortal in me and I will I will show you no mercy. It's such a great kind of fuck you at the end of

this thing. It's the way that I want to toast and be toasted for the rest of my life, Like the next time I see you, Chuck, I hope that's the toast with me that we share well. And we'll do it in the in the bar in the valley right the Boogie the Magnolia Bar. Let's do that because we're gonna buy the Boogie Night's house. I can't wait. Yeah. Uh, I meant to mention earlier too. You know, my grandfather was a was a drunk who would who would do

stuff like this. He was my dad's dad was and he died when I was like five or something, so I didn't really know him, but he he was an old school forties fifties mean ast drunk who would when he was out of booze, he would drink whatever was in the medicine cabinet. You know. Wow. Uh not a good guy to my dad. But I did not have the pleasure or displeasure of knowing him very well. But I've heard quite a few stories of stuff like drinking

turpentine and and Lisall and ship like that. Crazy. You don't get to choose what kind of drunk you are. And I'm grateful I am that I am a jovial, sleepy drunk instead of of the other kind. Yeah, me too, man, fighting fighting drunks. You can't control it, no, and you can't even hang out with those guys, no, now, you The best you can do is surround yourself from the

surround yourself with the same kind. Yeah I was. When I lived in Arizona for a year, I was friends with this one guy, sort of not even he was just sort of in the group that I partied with. And boy, this guy was one of those dudes that would get in a fight every weekend, and I just I couldn't be around him because I was always and I was always, you know, I was the guy I was always trying to be like, oh no, man, it's cool,

don't do that, like that's gonna ruin everyone's night. Like co moh man, let's go have fun, let's go be here, commit let's go over here. It was always let's go over here, let's get away from what you're mad at and just come on over here, because that will ruin the night for everyone, like it does every weekend. But you couldn't do it, you know, he would, you would see it in his head and he would go find that find that guy later at the party and beat

his ass. It's just like those people are angry at life, you know, sort of like it's pretty hard to chill out in life anyway. And I just don't understand the seeking it out the way that is. But that's I mean, it's a disease, right like like that kind of that kind of consumption can't be controlled. No, he's I mean something bad happened to that guy when he was a kid, you know, had Uh yeah, that's why you you thin

those guys out from your social heart. You surround yourself with the sleepy laughers like you and me, and then you're not worrying about punch him out anymore sleepy laughers. Um, let's talk about the scene, and it's a a sort of a sequence but really just sort of two scenes when he first the first processing scene, so, um, it would be the analog to uh in scientology, what's it called a I used to know because I did deep dives in scientology. Oh really, yeah, your on your hip podcast.

Well I read the book and I did I was sort of obsessed with it for a little while. Um, not processing, oh ship, I can't remember now. People are yelling at their radios. But it's a seventeen minute scene, dude, where he and there's a little bit of flashback because you get a little bit of the Doris story there, but um, it keeps coming back and it's seventeen minutes long, which is crazy. This film really kind of exists out

of time. Because the reason I say that is because I almost don't believe you when you say that at seventeen minutes it is. It's so yeah, because there's the beginning part where he sort of does the processing and then he farts and that's the end of that part. And I love that part too, because Phil Hoffman is just like you, silly animal, but he loves it, you know. I mean, this is this is what you get when you're of the caliber of Paul Thomas Anderson. Right, you

get your seventeen minutes scene if you want it. Right, So you get that beginning part where they sort of do it but not really, and then it goes into that really intense around two when he's doing that don't blink and he's firing the questions and uh, they walk out of there like that's their bond. Man. That's when they really fucking come together, and I feel like Freddie feels like he was really helped. You can see it's

almost like primal screen therapy or something. You can see on this face, like I actually feel good and I haven't felt good in a long time. You need those moments in a movie like this, right, You need you need the pressure released. You can't always exist in Freddie's mind. I don't think that's a thing you can endure for for two and a half hours. And so it feels good to get like a little victory with him, even if it's even if it's fake, even if it's a

charlatan making it happen. I mean, this is the same feeling I had when he went from wall to window, like the wall the window seen as another example of of like the insanity of this practice, and it's it's a weird kind of montage, right, this is like the

rudy montage of him getting better at football. He's getting better at hypnotizing himself as things go on, and you kind of like exalt in his victory at the end of of him finally getting it, even if it is insane, even if it is coming from inside himself or from Lancaster Dodd. Yeah, and that's part of a sequence to where, uh, it's right after the family dinner happens, where they're all like, we've got to get rid of this guy. Man, he's

a legit danger and very magnanimously. Uh, Lancaster Dodd just sort of says, well, then we have failed him if we allow him to go um tis tis that not true? He's he's guy's a tis uh And then they all begin this sort of there's that sequence intercut with Amy Adams reading him sort of softcore porn, but he does not want to hear that from her, which is interesting, like she's he's sort of the only woman in this

movie he doesn't objectify. And then the Ramy Malick stuff that sort of face to face uh therapy that they're going through. They're they're just breaking him down basically, they're do doing that therapy because all three of them know about Rammy Malick's wives attempted hand job. Right. Is that not part of the thing too? I think so? I mean she says I think he wants me, and he's definitely. I feel like they know he's a threat to their marriage.

Do you feel like it's intentional that Rami Malick's wife in this movie, which is one of Dodd's daughters, looks a lot like the department store lady. Now, I think that was probably purposeful. They look a lot alike. Yeah, I think that attractions natural. He sounds like the guy from the New Yorker. Do you think I mean, do you think she finally got her hand job with him? Like, no movie, no Hollywood film can have two hand job scenes. So that's one of the rules of Hollywood, right, Like

I think, so you gotta pick one and cut the other. Uh, yeah, but you could I think if you're going to read between the lines and stuff that happens off screen, I could see a dalliance having happened. Yeah, And it's kind of cool not to know and not to show that.

You know, it's fun to watch a Rami Maleck in this movie like pre height of his powers, and also like to a certain extent, Jesse Plemons, like like those two actors are capital G great actors and you can like to have them on the periphery of this movie

and this story is like God, what a gift. Yeah, Plemons is awesome and he has one of the lines um that I love so much, which is he's making you know, he's just making this stuff up as he goes and apparently that line and I think you probably know this, but um p t Anderson's screen this for Tom Cruise, his buddy very obviously noted scientologists, and it's very clear this is a movie that it was inspired by l Ron Hubbard in the beginnings of scientology, even

though all he did and all Harvey Weinstein and Mirrimax and everyone did was like, no, it's not about scientology at all. It's like super amount to believe Harvey Weinstein with whatever he tells you. Yeah, very trustworthy guy. But um, I wish it. What was I just saying, screened it for Tom Cruise? Yeah, yeah, screen it for Cruise. And that was the biggest part that he had a problem with. He was really upset about that scene where he said he's making it up as he goes along. That was

low key. One of the really that was one of my favorite compositions of the film is like Freddie Quell staggering out to the porch, you know, finishing his flask. Maybe he knows that Val is out there, maybe he doesn't, but it doesn't really matter. And that confrontation. It's it's just a really beautiful scene. I think it's one of my favorite scenes in the movie. And like it's that

that energy. I feel like so many characters have the energy in this film of suppressing their true feelings, suppressing their true nature. Val Dot is one of those characters. Like the way that he is told repeatedly, I can see the resemblance is so painful to him. You can see it every time. And it's great casting to cast Plemons as a young Philip Stymore Hoffman to get that when you don't believe anything about your father is like there's a repetition in that that is is great, Like

it's really well used. Yeah, I'm aware, I'm I understand that feeling. I look just like my dad. And every time I see a relative that sort of out of the loop and they just talk a glow about how much I look like my dad, and I was like, let's just stop talking about that. At at one point in my career, I worked for the same company that my dad did, with many of the same people after he retired, and it was something that I heard fairly

often and it cut every time, not a compliment. Yeah, Well, I'm glad we have that in common, dude, at least we can. That's why we're doing this pt Anderson series, right, right, right, this is why this is therapy. Um. I do love that scene too, when when he attacks him. Basically, I feel like it's for that same reason, not like, no,

your dad is a genius and a brilliant man. It's no, don't say these things that, Like, this is the only person who likes me and this is the only sort of goodness that I have going in my life, and I know it's fake, and I don't want to be told it's fake, right, Like he never believes it, right, No, I mean that seems impossible, but you you never want

to be told that. I mean, this is another thing about contemporary society, Like you never want to be told that your belief system is wrong or fucked up or that hurts other people. Yeah, uh, that's it's I feel like it's a part of human nature to defend that as much as you can, because because you you just take it personally. Yeah, I feel like that that Freddie Quell is just h He has found a sort of weird families, just like Marky Mark did that accepted him

he doesn't have to work. He is fed and clothed and kept in booze, and um, I feel like he's passing the time with these people. I never felt like he believed it, But he's participating though, like genuinely participating. That's part of the fun in this film. I think is is going back and forth between what he may or may not believe, and I think it's part of It's part of the weird, like dreamlike quality of this movie, right, Like, are you sure what is real and what isn't in

this movie? I feel like I knew the rules of the film up until the point that he took the phone call in the movie theater, which I know you agree with me. You should never take a phone call in the movie theater. Yeah, but that that definitely seemed like an impossibility. We realize that that's a fantasy that he acts upon before he goes out to Europe. But like, knowing that that scene exists in a film like this, are you sure of any other scene actually existing here?

Are you sure that Freddie Quell's entire story isn't made up? Because when he ends up in the sand next to next to sand boobs, again, I'm I'm not so sure. Really, I'm willing to believe that that the entire thing is a fantasy. It doesn't ruin the film at all for me, but interesting, but I think it suggests a squishiness and

the reality for Freddie Quell. Yeah, I think I didn't think too much about the phone call other than like, well, there's no way you can know he was there, um, But yeah, that does sort of throw throw a seed of doubt into the whole thing, kind of finishing up on that one scene though, it's one of my favorite lines in the movie. God Phil Hoffman is so good in this, but when he comes out when the cops are there to get him, and he's just so incredulous, just like l Ron Hubbard, Like you get I mean,

it's a really good portrayal. You get a sense this is just how l Ron Hubbard would have been if the cops showed up and he goes, this is comic opera. Such a great line, is it illegal in the city to get better? It's too bad we'll never get a real l Ron Harvard movie because there's a there's a ton of like fascinating shit about that guy. But why, why don't you think we will. I think we could. I think I think scientology is a very powerful force. I don't think they are as much as they once were.

I don't think they can shudge yeah, man, I think they've been exposed to a degree in where they can't shut it down like they used to. Look, man, I live in l A. I don't want to be chained to a radiator in in some in some boats somewhere. Man, you're not gonna hear me besmirch scientology on this show.

Another one of my favorite lines, and it's one of the two times that Philip seymourhof and let's that rage come out, is when he's being questioned by the guy and he goes, if you already know the answers to your question, then why do you ask? Big? How how many times have you rewind that scene today? Get three times? It's so rewatchable and as great of a director as Paul Thomas Anderson is, I don't know that you evoke that out of Philip Sumour Hoffman. I think that's within

him to do. And I could get I could get a hundred runs at that line reading and and never do it the way that Philip Sumore Hoffman does. There's like half of it is sticato and the other half isn't so good. And it's such a build up of like interruption, right working on a thing and some fucking guys excuse asking a question, Excuse me, this isn't the Q and a portion of the thing. Guy. He successfully ignores him enough, and the guy keeps saying, excuse me.

Um oh man, it's so good and and you know it's it's the built up, uh taught, coiled spring of having to always be defending yourself. But I think where why it works so well is they didn't show any of that in this movie. Hardly they should that there's that scene, there's and that's kind of it. I mean, there's the two times he blows up actually very innocently.

Laura Dern's character kind of calls him on his bullshit and he gets caught kind of red handed delivering bullshit, and his his excuses it very good and he knows it, so he just blows up at her. You know who I love, And both of those scenes. I love Laura Dern and I love Amy Adams because there's we cut away to Amy Adams and that first disruption and you can see her coiled rage is never released. You can

just see it like vibrating there. And you can, to a certain extent, see the same thing in Laura Dern, like like she's put off an incredulous and she never gets her release either. And I think and I think they they do such work in this movie in in like you need to cut away right, like technically you can't just stay on Dodd for his spring and explosion. You need reactions, and and the reactions in this film

are are so useful and good. Yeah, I'd be interested to know what's on the cutting room floor of this movie if there's a three hour version. Yeah, I could see some some uh, I could see some scenes being in this that weren't that could have benefited it. But that's not to knock it, Like I think it's a great film. Maybe there's a second hand job, you know, I hope um. And And the interesting thing too about

when he blows up at Laura Dern. It's sort of that third act that cracks are forming feeling Yeah a little bit, you know, but he didn't hammer at home. It's not like I think a less or maybe more obvious filmmaker might have really had a bunch of scenes where people are onto him and there's a news report and there's the media, but like they're really in a bubble with the cause. There's not a lot of outsiders ever.

That's a really great observation. We never get outside of this ecosystem, and even like the outsiders that we get are still inside it. Right, Like that guy's at the meeting the questions is there, Yeah, John Moore like got an invitation, right, He's allowed to go to the party. Is that the same party that ends up being naked later?

According to Freddie quele Yea, the singing scene um really interesting, Like that was it felt very kubricky in somehow great call and not just and not just because of eyes watch Shutt. Just something about it, like this alternate reality of this guy imagining every every woman in there being naked with this giant merkins. Imagine being the the casting director that's like, all right, seventy four year old actor, like, you've done You've done the lines perfectly. We really love

your performance. How comfortable are you with nudity? And the actors Like, I mean I read the scene, there's no suggestion of nudity whatsoever. What are we talking about here. Have you seen a Kubrick movie? Right, here's your giant Gabe Kaplan Merkin. God, Hey, here's the question. I don't mean to put you on the spot. Do it. You're casting a Paul Thomas Anderson movie, but the condition is you go to hang dong? Do you do it like I'm the actor? Yeah, you're in the party scene, Chuck Adam.

There is not an amount of money in the world where I would hang dong for other people to see. Wow, I grew up Southern Baptist dude, I am. I am ashamed of nudity. I am also my My wife makes fun of me for being an ever nude. I don't even like to undress in front of her. There's no way would you. I think it says a lot about my appreciation for Paul town Miss Anderson that I would think. I really would just imagine that cemented in time forever, like the dong of the present that is on that

blue ray evermore. Uh yeah, I mean the only way I do that as if I had a a complete face covering mask. Give me the Mark Wahlberg dong, give me the boogie nights. Don't break that thing out of the safe. Yeah, I do that. Um, let's talk about the jail scene. Uh, you know, the cops come. Freddie gets in a fight on the front porch with the cops. Another great fight in the movie. Uh, kind of brutal,

and they end up in adjoining cells. Lancaster Dat is already in there and they dump Freddy in there next to him, handcuffed, And because he's handcuffs, he can't punch the wall like he wants to, so he reacts like an animal again and just is banging his shoulders against the cot and like he breaks the fucking toilet with his boot. I mean, it's it's really really a great, great scene. The like filmmaker and me saw him break that toilet and go like, oh fuck, Like do we

have to shoot the second take? And like a couple of cells over are we just moving down? I don't think that it was an accident, but I think it's one of those moments where you watch it as a as a director and go like, this is why you cast Joaquin Phoenix. That was my It's okay that he destroyed your set. That was that was my question watching it, And my question for you your take is that he just did that, and my I was wondering, was it a rigged toilet that they reset every time? It certainly

feels like it just happened in the moment. But the magic, Hey, when we start a band, can we call it rigged toilet? The magic of movie making? Though? You know it goes dude, like, would you be disappointed to learn that, like, oh no, no no, no, we had a toilet that broke away and we reset it every time because it looks so great. Would that

disappoint you? There's something so dangerous about this entire scene that, like, I want to believe that this was the one cell that they could use side by side and these were the steaks, because it's a film about steaks in a lot of ways, and this is a scene that's emblematic of that. Like the split screenness of it, the stillness of one side at the diptych and and the tornado happening on the other is so amazing. I think it's

one of the great scenes in all of movies. Yeah, and Dodd's dialogue is so good in that scene, Like, I just I can't imagine how much fun it was to sit down and write some of his dialogue as a screenwriter. I love the idea of a spike piss, like I'm a piss at the end of the scene in my in my still put together toilet that you don't have. I forgot about that. That was the perfect way that to put the cherry on that scene. It's

so it's so passive aggressive um. And you know that sort of spends us into our third act, which is the desert location. They go to Phoenix for the the unveiling of book Too, and they and and it's such a It's so funny to me that Paul Thomas Anderson with a straight face could say, like, no, this isn't really based on scientology. Lenny's smoking cools and he has this this box buried in the middle of the desert containing his lfe's work in it. Like that is so

l Ron Hubbard. It's straight out of South Park, for sure. And then the book sucks. What was it called the uh the the cut lists. Yeah, there's something two Sides of the Saber or something like that. Yeah, yeah, it is, but uh. And when they're printing it, you see the sort of subtitle a book for a book for Homo sapiens or something like that, A gift. Yeah, it's always

a gift, isn't it. It's so great though, Man, they dig up this box and that that whole desert sequence is so weird because it's just the notion of this game called pick a spot. It's so dumb, but it works. Have you ever ridden a motorcycle? So when I was a kid, I had a friend with a dirt bike and I would ride that a little bit. And then later on my dad had a motorcycle for one summer when I was like ten, and I rode on the

back of that a couple of times. But he wrecked it with me on it when we were going camping once. It wasn't It was kind of the deal where we were pulling into a camping like a dirt road from the main road like to go camping, and there was all this fresh grabble and uh so it was slow,

but I remember, it's so funny. I remember seeing that grabble and being like, we're gonna go down and he and he pulled in and slow and started a slide and I bailed because I kind of saw it coming, so I didn't get hurt, but he burned his leg on the muffler and that was kind of it. I mean, it was a very low speed thing. But other than that, I've never driven a motorcycle. Have you know. The closest I've gotten is a is a quad like everritten, ever ridden sand dunes and not close, my friend. I know

it's not. It's not, but but it's it's close in terms of temperature and sound. It's hot and loud. Yeah, and you've got handlebars. Yeah. Yeah, it's not the same. But boy, the idea of going out into the desert or to a salt flat or something and doing this very interesting to me. I would do it if you would. It looks exhilarating. I do it if you would. I mean, Philip smore hopping looked like he was having at the

time of his life. Yeah, he was hooting in holler and I was I sort of think I remember seeing this for the first time, thinking that this was he was trying to get Freddy to die by his own hand for some reason. And I even thought that a little bit today, like he brought him out there to sort of stage and accident, that that really happened. There is even a suggestion of that when we when we're in very close on Lancaster Dad's face and he, I

don't know. He says something ambiguous about what he's seeing, as if he's witnessed the death of Freddie Quell that that you're expecting it. It's setting you up for that did not personally set me up for him just riding away forever and he just kept going. A great shot of them walking with a car behind him at the end was fantastic, Like he wouldn't even get the motorcycle. Uh. That's another one of my favorite lines is I don't know if you caught it. I had to subtitle it.

But when he tells Freddie to pick a spot and he said, tell me what it is, and he goes from that point over there, at that point in mountain, he goes, uh, he goes that head and he went, it's an alligator's head. It's such a cool line, like do you write that or just Phil Hoffman make that up on the in the moment because it looked like

an alligator. I mean, Lancaster Died is a character who's who sees things that in a different way, like he's all I feel like he's always going to describe things in that way, in a way that impresses the people

around him. Yeah, and the same. It also reminds me of the way that he would And this was so l Ron Hubbard in Scientology, that sequence where the book is coming out and they're doing sort of the promo photography, and that great sequence when he's he's got the cowboy outfit and he's the rancher and then he's at the desk with that giant quill and inc incpin and it's just so like l Ron Hubbard in the fifties, so serious.

I think. I think that's the scene that stuck out to me in the movie trailer was I feel like there was a montage of those portraits being taken of Philip Seymour Hoffmann and that like that serious portrait studio hands clasped, perfectly lit quality I mean, and and going back to the very beginning of the film, like the quality of family portraiture in a department store of that time. It's so perfect and beautiful looking. Well, dude, the colors.

I'm glad you mentioned that because that was one of the things from my list from earlier that I didn't mention. The the color in the in the composition of those shots early on that fifties technicolor. It's just it's like magic looking. It really is. I mean, you and I have production experience, like I don't I want where how do you even do that? How do you like intentionally make it look so perfect? It's it's one of the

magic tricks of this film. It's great and it's one of the things that like that establishes Freddie Quell's otherness. Like he's seeing families get together to take these pictures that he gets to observe over and over again. He's experiencing this as an outside observer, just taking pictures. He never gets to be in the photo. Yeah, and I think that's, you know, sort of like the p. T Anderson theme that we keep talking about with these weird families.

He doesn't have that. He is the market mark character. Um, he's just disgusting, sort of depraved guy who had this one maybe shot at love. But you also sort of don't even get the feeling that Doris was I think only in his mind was she Were they really going to be a thing that just didn't quite work out. I'm so glad that in the minute we're finally bringing up Doris, who maybe the reason for the whole thing. Yeah, right, Doris,

Doris of a strong Norwegian family. You know, Doris's family going to take her back to the homeland to meet the rest of the family. I mean, these are concepts that are totally alien to a Freddie quell. Yeah, he tells her not to go. Yeah, before he does, I know, and then it's like, I'm out of here. You should go to Norway or whatever. I love the actor who plays Doris's mom in that scene. I love so much about this scene because it is an It's an example

of Freddie turning the corner. Like everything that Lancaster Dot has impregnated in him about suppressing his animalism is here because this is the test, right. Yeah, Like she's she is almost uniquely suited to pressing every bruise that he's got, and he's just absorbing the pain over and over again with every line. And she's so like, she's so like Nork Nork chill in a way that if you know people who are like, it's just perfect. Yeah. I mean

that was a tense scene. You keep I mean, you're waiting for him, yeah, to hurt her or just to explode. And the last time he was at this house he like tore out the window. Yeah, but it sort of gives you the idea that I mean in that Act three he's a little bit of a success story, but in the way that P. T. Anderson would do it, which is again not to be obvious and show him like, you know, it's some great job and he's really succeeding in life. But it hints that he's gotten a little

better because of the cause. I want to float something at you right now. This is that's going to feel a little film papery. Oh here we go, which is like you remember the Jason Robard's monologue at the end of Magnolia about like the most corrosive aspect to a person's life is like the regret, goddamn regret. Exactly what do you think this is? Like? This is the same thing.

This is like, this is the idea of the regret of doing a thing and failing is not nearly as bad as the not doing of a thing at all. And this is the confrontation that Freddie Quell has with that idea, Like he had a chance to make a thing with Doris and and he he punched out, He hit the eject button before he had a asked to truly realize it. Well, do go out on that limb. I think you're right on the money, because earlier in the processing scene two of the very pointed questions he asked,

or do you regret your life's actions or whatever? Do you have your life regrets? And then, um, what was the other one? It wasn't life regrets? Oh well, he sort of asked him about uh, when he has sex with his aunt, he asked them, he asked him if he regrets doing that, and like why he did that? And I think both of those sort of tie in.

It feels like the superficial question about Paul Thomas anderson films might be are they about family and the like the Varsity team question that that you and I play for is are his films about regret? Yeah? And I believe they are. Yeah. I think you're right. I think all of his films you can sort of tie that thread through, you know. Yeah, Yeah, I think that's why

they hit so hard. Yeah, because this, again, this is a movie that doesn't have characters that you really relate to our root for in a traditional sense, but it still hits hard. And it's usually those other things that do hit hard is you're relating or feeling for these people, So he's pulling like he's got a toolbox here that you don't see a lot. Like everyone knows what it's like to exist in a family. You know whether or

not that that relationship is positive or negative. But like, I feel like a person's relationship with regret is so much more relatable person to person, like you and I. You and I can share in what our regrets are in a way that like makes that uh, that feeling a transaction and there's like a currency to that that that feels even the the and and like while our families might be a friend, I feel like our regrets might be at a at a far more acute level

of feeling. And that might be like, like if you're really trying to make a film or a series of films that makes you feel a thing like what is what is like the what's the deepest part of being a human being that that levels the playing field? What's the thing that that that I can relate to you on on a level even though we've had totally separate lives. It's how our regrets make us feel. I feel like

those are very similar feelings person to person. How that feels deeply Yeah, it's it's sort of the great equalizer, Like it doesn't matter what the regret is, it's that same underlying feeling. Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. That might be the great late motif of Paul Thomas Anderson films. Yeah, we should get him on here and ask him. I'd love to. Let's let's do the interview at the boogie unit's house that you and I buy as a business expense.

So let's wrap it up here with that scene when he finally goes back to England and he you know, he he meets them in this uh, cavernous off I mean, you can't even call it an office. He set up his desk in this you know, sort of palatial room and um, amy at us. How great is the lighting of this scene, right, It's like it's shriekingly back lit. Yeah. Yeah, and yet and yet like everything's bounced back up in

his face. It's yeah, we don't I feel like we, as in people who talk about movies, do not call attention to like the work of those who light scenes in a way that we should, because this scene in particular is incredibly lit. Yeah, it's a lot of work to light a room that big with that much natural light. Um,

but Amy Adams isn't having it, you know. She just sort of dismisses him as is still on the drink and you can't handle this life straight and she leaves and you you feel like that had to happen in the scene because there's almost that moment there kind of is that's that moment where they both look at each other like, well, I'm glad she's gone and it's and it's us just us. Whatever. Did you notice her eyes were black in that scene? Now where are they? Now?

I'm just teasing, but you were ready to believe that, right, it was because after that scene where she said to change your ey color or whatever. There's kind of a supernatural quality to Amy Adams in this movie, yeah, I think, And this is a scene that demonstrates it. Yeah, Like like like Lancaster Dad is in fear of his wife, or at least the sort of respect of a wife that allows for that kind of fear, And when she leaves the room, you're totally right, Chuck like his shoulder slump.

He's like, God, I can finally get into these four packs of cools with my buddy, Yeah, you brought him

the cools. Such a solid man. But you know that scene though, is very uh, it did not go the way that you would expect it to go in a in a movie, you know, that's usually a big reconciliation or something, and and it's, uh, he gets this great story about where they where he feels like they met before that's just batshit about them being on the pigeon force or whatever with the Prussians bearing down on them, and like, it's so great. How do you write that ship?

Is this a war movie? Chuck? Like, given the torpedo beginning and and the balloon ending, it's so great, Like, how do you write that out? It's crazy to think of, like Paul Thomas Anderson thinking of that, like where would they have met? Because he could have done anything. You feel like Lancaster Dad doesn't even believe it when you're saying it right sort of. I got that feeling, did you. I don't know, man, I couldn't tell, Like the Iron Hubbards of the world. That's why I'm so fascinated by

it all. I can never suss out if they eventually bought into their own ship or if they were just Charlatan's to the bone. This is a magic of working with the greatest actors. Though, Like if it isn't the truth, then as Paul Thomas Anderson going, can you give me a nine point five on the story? Yeah, just roll a little bit off of it, because I feel like there's a little bit rolled off of this story you think at the end. Yeah, I don't think his heart's

in it the way that it's in everything else. And it maybe just like the passage of time has suggested an amount of fatigue in the sort of leadership style storytelling that that leads us to this point in this character story. But I don't know, maybe neither of them believe it. Maybe maybe Lancaster Dodd does utterly the way he believes everything else about himself. But well, that's the scene I'm gonna watch again after we're done. Um, I'm gonna cue that one up because boy, I was you know,

I would think I've talked about this before. I'd always try to picture the writer at a computer or at a laptop actually like writing this stuff, and that that that bit of dialogue about them being in the war sending these balloons up, because he could have done anything they could have met anywhere. He could have said they were cavemen together and that the Paleolithic era or whatever like.

He could have on in any direction throughout history, and they could have done They could have been Chimney sweeps in London, they could have whatever. They could have been, butch Cassidy in the Sundance Kid, And it was important that they did something important, and it was important that there was a statistical specificity to it. I feel like this is that a lot of magicians use, like like this has got to be true because it's so specific, Right,

only two balloons were lost. That's a detail that that a practiced leader would use, right, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man, And it's very it's very clear that he's being specific about that we only lost two balloons through the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, Like Jachin's probably Freddy's probably impressed by that. I mean, the tears you see from him, you could understand, are like this is this is would buy between them. But it's also maybe finally a recognition of the lie of

the whole thing. Oh wow, yeah, how could you How could you not convince Freddie Quell of anything? He's so he's so suggestible he's so drunk and dumb. But this is the maybe maybe the point that's that's too far,

and maybe the tears are from that as well. Yeah, you wonder if he uh, if you went in there almost hoping that the story would be I think you you know, you took my friends picture at the mall one day and I was there shopping in a like something believable, and like when he gets this fantastical story, he's just like it's it's fully seals the deal that, Yeah, this guy is so full of shit. Yeah, yeah, there is a I feel like you could make the case

that the film could end there. Yeah, but you get that last scene, you do, you get you get the lady at the bar freddie Quell still in Europe. He he makes eyes with the lady across the bar. He gets her to buy him a drink, which chuck, I don't know by you, I don't know. I don't know if that's ever happened to me. I don't think that's ever happened to me either. I'm buying my own drinks, brother, and uh. And they end up going back to wherever.

Here's the thing. They go back to where she's staying right, yeah, I think so, there's no chance that Freddie's got a place to stay. And he kind of gives her the business, yea, the questions business. Yeah, and he is delighted by her answers. Yeah, Like you get the herd feeling. This is the beginning of something for them. Right. She's great. I like her a lot. She's good and he and he's he's still sort of the animal because it fell out. Put it back in. We've all had it fallout, Chuck, We've all

asked for it to be put back in. Oh boy, good stuff. This is a very very familiar moment. What a movie man, I mean, yeah, Like, I think what I respect most about pt Anderson at this point in this phase in his career when he made this and There Will Be Blood, was that he wasn't, like I said, he forgot about the audience. He wasn't even out to entertain necessarily. I think I don't know what was going through his head. But I love these movies. They're challenging

as hell. I think I like There Will Be Blood more. Yeah, it's not like a band lee eater who like turns his back to the audience, who doesn't want them to see the music being played like. It's not that inscrutable, but it's very much a feeling of this is the story I'm trying to tell. Try to keep up, try to project your own life onto it in a way

that's satisfying. It really God, it's I I might agree with you that that the film that came before might be the favorite of the two, but it's no less satisfying to watch the master It's there's so much here. It's really great just to watch the acting. It's like it's just a masterclass. Man. It's ridiculous, it really is, And that's what makes it great and sad in a way that, like so many PTA films are great and sad, absolutely good stuff. Dude talks, Yeah, I think we did.

And good job by you. We get to talk about our dads. It's always with pt Anderson, we always we always get to dig in there. Yeah, yeah, sure do All right, we'll save some of that for the after show. Well, I think what what's next is Inherent Vice, right, which, as you know, is somehow a movie I did not see. WHOA What I didn't see it. Man, it got such ship that it got by me, and I was like, I don't want to see it if it's no good. And then just as a film student and p T.

Anderson fan, I like just dropped the ball. There's no excuse. I mean, if you're working with Joaquin Phoenix, you want to work with him again, right, Like definitely, I can definitely understand that. But also, if you're Paul Thomas Anderson, let's just say that you have a number of films to do in your career, Okay, I mean it's to adapt something else I think is an interesting exercise. But as a consumer of film and a consumer of his

work specifically, like I would not make that trade. Like I would always choose an original work written and directed by Paul Thomas Anderson than an adaptation of a work, which is what this next one is. But I can totally understand a creative person's instinct to get uncomfortable and try something different. So I I respect it and I love it, but I hope it's not at the expense of a project that he makes himself. Because he's so

he's so great. I can't wait to see it. Uh, And that'll be interesting too because it'll be super fresh for me. And uh yeah, that'll be a different sort of episode for us. We need more therapy clearly, well movie therapy specifically. All right, brother, well that was a good one. I hope the listeners are still enjoying the pt Anderson series. We want to get it to him one day. I think that will happen. I think he needs and he needs to hear these shows. I'd love

that very much. Let's do the wrap up show with him at the Boogie Night's House. Absolutely all right. I think you've got that kind of pull shit. Good way to end. Thanks buddy, Thank you man. It's great to do this again. I missed you a lot. I missed you too. Louie Crush has produced, edited, and engineered by Ramsey unt here in our home studio at Pont City Market, Atlanta, Georgia.

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