Film Series: Casey on The Ice Storm

It was so fast, it was crazy. It was really really um it provided for a spooky Halloween. It did. It's kind of perfect, kind of unique, strange atmosphere. And you do mention the weather in this movie and we're talking about the ice storm the to Me classic film from Angle based on Rick Moody's novel screenplay by James Shamas, and the weather in this movie is so important. It's like another character. It's kind of a cliche, but it

really is true. Yeah, and it's kind of the this is jumping ahead, but it's it's like the unifying thing because everybody is so alienated and disconnected and kind of talking past each other and trying their best to kind of stay in their bubbles of isolation and not kind

of like you know, reach the surface of like polite conversation. Yeah, they're icy relationships and um and the ice storm kind of is the thing that finally forces everyone to kind of deal with each other as like real human beings. And you could you could find kind of similar I was thinking in terms of like you know, shortcuts. There's like the earthquake at the end Magnolia. There's the frogs.

Of course, you know, they're they're these ideas, like the idea of like the an ensemble cast that's kind of all brought together by this unifying kind of natural event. Yeah, totally. Um. I saw this in the theater in when I was living in New Jersey and went to the Angelica Film Center in New York, one of my favorite places, which is where I saw The Lighthouse recently, and um it really like really moved me at the time and has become one of my favorite films. Um And I've said

this before and I'll say it again. It's somehow angle and it shows what a great director he is. Um. You know, of Asian descent, somehow captures America in the nineteen seventies better than any American director that I've ever seen. Maybe, yeah, well maybe I mean that might be because it's not firsthand knowledge so much to him. Maybe it's not in you have to find it in in research and reference

and and really like studying hard. And of course, I mean he has the benefit of amazing production design and so on. But um yeah, I mean I think I think sometimes the best films about America are made by non Americans. You think of like Paris, Texas by ven

vendors or something. Um it's the idea of like shooting America kind of as a foreign country, And um yeah, I think people I think when you're from a place, obviously you have a high degree of like intense familiarity with it that can almost blind you in a way, but maybe not the fascination that someone like angle exactly exactly. So you know, it's everything is kind of new again when you're coming with a different perspective. So yeah, boy,

this movie just nailed it. I mean, I grew up when was the set seventy Yeah, And they make a lot about you know, there's there's a lot of emphasis

put on it being seventy three. In particular, the yeah, Nixon, and just kind of the idea that it's only a few years after the sixty and yet it feels like we've entered this new age is kind of malaise, the sense of like the revolution didn't come, you know, and and the kind of like the the dream is sort of dead, and now it's just this like lost time where people feel kind of you know, they they're they're

just not sure what they're doing. Everybody's a little bit lost. Yeah, I mean it's that that post sixties malaise, like you said, when everyone I think in the late sixties there was so much hope, yeah for change, and then I think, i mean historians point to the Democratic National Convention that's sort of the turning point when things started to to

go bad. And of course you have like sixty nine, you have Sharon Tate murder, you know all that manson Um, And I think at the time the seventies were sort of we we look back at them now, it's like, you know, with great glee, But I think at the

times everyone everyone was like the seventies, you know, it sucks. Yeah, And I think to like, um, the first few years of any given decade is always like a weird blend where there's so much holdover from the decade prior and and it's still you're still kind of feeling your way into what this thing is going to be. And it's really not until I think later in the decade that you kind of solidify like what even is this decade?

You know? Yeah, I'm fascinated with that stuff, man, because of of time, the arbitrary nature of a person and man saying well, this is our calendar and this is the end of something and this is the beginning of something. When it's like, no, that was just yesterday. It's very arbitrayday is no different. But what it is is is forget the calendar numbers forgetting months and years and decades. It's the passage of time and the sun rising and

setting over a long enough period which we call years. Uh, that does mean something. And it's kind of like, I mean, it's it's almost a chicken and egg thing. Do we have decades because we have the system that we think in terms of tens and like we just categorized, Yeah, yeah, we categorized. But then also like, do we feel an obligation almost to switch up what we're doing when it

becomes like another decade. I think that's definitely true, and especially when you see things like Boogie Nights when goes into eight and it feels like a switch is flipped. It's like it's a brand new thing for everyone. They

introduced it and to help you can start over. Interesting. Yeah, and uh, I think also the something on the on the commentary track that that Angley talks about a lot, and James Jamis, who's also on the commentary, um there there they were conscious that, you know, in a year like nineteen seventy three, there's still going to be people dressed like it's still the sixties and so on. They

didn't do that so much in this film. They really went for everything to feel like up to the minute kind of and they're they're sort of, Um, rationale for that was that they're not creating necessarily something that feels like a camera dropped into nineteen seventy three and started filming. It's more about the memory of that period and what we associate with it, and so it's almost more nineteen seventy three than nineteen seventy three. You know, it's a

more perfect version of nineteen seventy three. Yeah, although it's it feels like someone dropped a camera. Yeah, because your memory of it probably you know, probably yeah, yeah, yeah, because so you know, I was two years old and seventy three, so obviously you don't have memories of that, but have very distinctive memories of, um, seventy five, seventy six,

seventy seven and what life was like then. Uh. And this really very evocative for me, Like it hit a lot of not nostalgia, buttons, because there's not anything in this movie that's happy. The closest the closest they get is like that that shodow Wendy's foot when she's got the multicolored like toes on the sock. Um, they're a little hinds and just like, yeah, just like a little kind of kind of funny things like that, but they're they're few and far between. Buy and Large is not

a nostalgia movie. It's not a sort of like, look at how funny everybody was dressed back then sort of No, and no one feels um And this is a testament to the set design in the in the costumes and wardrobe, but no one ever feels like they're in a costume. Yeah, exactly,

just feels very real. Um, even the way over the top seventies and nous of the Sigourney Weaver and Jamie Sheridan's house, which, by the way, like I want to live in that house, even the colonial uh Kevin Klein's, like those picture windows by that river in the backyard, Like this forested suburb was just like it was because this is sort of how I grew up. I grew up in the woods on a house with a street with eight houses. It wasn't like some big suburban neighborhood.

And we had a creek in the woods behind our house, and we lived on like two acres. So this in the wintertime in my home, it reminded me very much of what was going on here. Yeah, I know for me, like watching um watching the film the first time I saw it, I didn't get to see it in theaters, but I saw it on DVD like probably the next year, ninety eight or so. How old are you. I would have been fifteen, so you know, interesting age to see this watching it at that age. My obviously, my most

intense identification was with Tobey Maguire, Paul Hood and Um. Yeah, something about watching it, I think I watched it, you know, during the winter, during the cold months, and um, it's not a summer film, no no. And I was, you know, upstairs my parents house, in my room, and I just had this sense of you know, it's it's when you're especially when you're a teenager. At least a lot of teenagers get this way. They kind of isolate from their

families a little bit. They wanted to find themselves separately and um, and so you're kind of it's weird because you're you're sort of with your family because you're still living under their roof. You're still seeing them for meals and you know, interactions and so on, but you're also kind of tucking yourself away, like creating a separate thing.

And I have this feeling of, yeah, watching that film, knowing that you know, my parents are like downstairs, but I kind of up here and I'm having this experience and so on. We'll meet up a couple of times

a day. Yeah, yeah, and just like you know, it's like like like Kevin Klein says in the movie to to Paul, he's, um, he's like, you know, the whole point of view coming home so that your mother and I can wait on your hand and foot, and you can grunt at us and we can give you more food, and it's like we enjoy that kind of thing, you know, And and um, you know it. At the time, that idea seems very strange and and kind of like he must not mean it or something, but of course he does,

you know. He misses that that sense of just like being a parent and caring for somebody. UM. So yeah, now watching it, gosh, how many years later, like twenty two years later, Um, it's a very different experience for me because like in the novel, Uh, didn't you read it? Yeah, well sort of. I I took a class in college where every every um film that we were signed was an adaptation of a book, and so we were assigned the book and the film and one I didn't really cheat.

I just kind of, Um, I read enough of the book, I guess, you know, I read enough of the book to it's really funny. I took it out again to uh to look over for for this episode, and I found like my bookmark from two thousand four where it was a page. So I made I made it most of the way through, but I bailed at some point. And so then for this, I just went back and reread like the very first chapter. Um, where was I

going with all that? Oh? So watching it now. So in the book it mentions that Benjamin Hood, the Kevin Klein character, is thirty nine. I'm thirty six now, and so I know he's I mean, he's he plays a little bit, maybe slightly older in the film. I think I feel like they all felt like they were four Yeah, yeah, yeah, so definitely like mid forties, I think so. In the

in the book, he's just slightly younger. But at the same time, in the book he's described as kind of like having lost his hair already, just just feeling extremely like over the hill kind of and sort of like past it. And you know, in the in the film, Kevin Klein is still very like, you know, handsome and you know, virile, viril exactly. So there's there's a slight difference there, but in terms of like his own kind of midlife crisis and everything, that's I think that's more

or less the same in both. Yeah, man, it's a boy. This is a movie about I've seen this movie a bunch of times, but it had been a minute. It's a it's such a movie about people seeking connections and not ever getting missing. I mean sometimes, but rarely. And I just kept counting so many instances where it's a husband trying to connect with a wife, or or a parent trying to connect with a child, or children trying to make connections with each other. They kind of become

more connected than anyone. I guess, yes, I think I think Windy and Sandy you know, end up having like the best genuine connection that um, you know, they're they're they're like in bed together as far as we can tell. They're not doing anything sexual. They're just kind of like each other. Review said something about, like, you know, one of them loses their virginity. I'm like, no, no, I don't even I think. I think I mean the kid,

you know, the Sammy, he passes out drunk, like almost immediately. Yeah, and they just kind of like they're they're just keeping each other warm basically, and their kids they're playing adult Yeah, exactly, all the adults are playing kids and all the kids are playing adults. But they're they're doing you know, they're drinking the vodka and then they take up their clothes and get in bed together because that's what they see all around. That's what their parents do. Yeah, that's that's

what they've kind of been taught. That's that's the model that they've kind of learned. So it's all very innocent though, like that age, that adolescent age, where you don't know what the funk is going on in your body, You don't know what these feelings are, you don't know how to do any of this stuff physically. Um, it's just so awkward in this movie. And it doesn't like, I don't know, I feel like a lot of movies like

Coming of Age play it play it too broad. Um, with the lack of awareness about sex, how to do things, it can be way over the tops. And this is just so real man. It's just like I remember having these feelings and fumbling around and being like, you know, there's and I had parents who like they didn't tell me about any stuff, never had like the talk. No, I didn't know what was going on. You're picking all this stuff up second hand off the playground, some of

it blatantly wrong. That's how Yeah, I mean, that's how you learn. You learn it from like the older kids, you know, or maybe like someone that's your age who heard it from their older sibling or yeah, like a fourteen year old is learning about sex from a sixteen year old, which you find it funny. Find a playboy in the woods or whatever, you know, that old that old move. It's like, I wonder what's in that tree house,

but it's it's funny. Sigourney Weaver has that great speech to Wendy where she's like, you know, in adolescence, our bodies betray us, and your body is your temple and you only get one in this life. It's your first and last possession. And I know it's int thing that takes that the parents have on this stuff, because they're all different. She has that funny thing where she says, um, you know, and like she calls it like developing countries

or something. She's like, you know, they just when the kids reach a certain age, they send them off into the woods without any weapons or anything, and they don't come back until you've learned a thing or two. Yeah, you don't really you know, you kind of know what she's getting at, but to the kid is just like, what are you talking about? Well, and that was Christina Recchi is so good and all the acting is just off the charts in this movie. I mean the cast

is insane, like the number of people. Yeah, Katie Holmes, I don't think even gets like billing up front. It was her first film. Yeah, it was her film debut. Yeah, so when she pops up, you know, first time around anyway, it's like, oh my gosh, it's you know, Toby McGuire. Of course, Joan Allen will just take through the cast. Kevin Klein are the are the married couple of Christina Reachie and Toby McGuire, their kids. Sigourney Weaver, who was I think kind of steals the movie in a lot

of way. If you can steal this movie. Jamie Sheridan is great, and then Elijah Wood and Adam han or han Bird yeah as Sandy who was so good in this movie. Yes, and forget like David crum Holtz. Crum Holtz in he's one of my favorite act Oh my god, just like the the ultimate asshole. Like I feel like we all knew that that guy. Of course, like your back is turned and he's moving in on your girl. Yes, yes, like your best friend right right totally. Yeah, So um,

that was a good overview. We'll kind of go in order, but we can go all over the place. But the movie opens with that great through line of the Fantastic Four stuff. Yeah, so effective in a kind of a funny Um, I don't know, irony of history or something that You've got Toby McGuire who goes on to play Spider Man, got Angley who goes on to direct Hulk. You've got you know, yeah Holmes, this is not Marvel, but Katie Holmes who's in Wondering Boys and Wonder Boys too. Yeah.

What was the first one he said was in What Batman Begins? You know, comic book adaptation. Um, and I think Pleasantville was Joan Allen and Toby is a lot of weird cross a lot of a lot of a lot of criss crossing in that period in like you know, semi independent film. Yeah, although it's backed by a larger studio. It's you know, very much like in that mold. Yeah, and didn't do well. Um, yes, it was kind of a commercial flop. Well, they say um on the on

the commentary. The first one of the first things Jim Shamus says, Angle is like sowing here. It is like your worst tested movie ever, like, you know, just just the worst feedback that was ever given. And because he's made some pretty bad movies yeah, over the last like ten or fifteen years, I know, and confounding from yeah he's he's, he's um, he's he's hard to pin down. He swings between so many different genres and yeah, something like Life of Pie was really good, but this new

movie just is getting atrocious. I've used some I've seen some positive you know words written about it by like cinephile type people. But there's a certain thing that happens with some cinephiles where it's almost like a contrarianism or or or or sort of um like fetishizing the film that's rejected by a mass audience and rediscovering like something

good about it. Everyone hates this, so let me take a yeah, yeah, let's so, um it is valid And of course only is like a director that's worth making that kind of investment in and and sort of taking a closer look and saying like is this really as bad as people are saying, etcetera. But yeah, he's he

is somebody that. I mean, I feel like he's never made another film remotely like in this mold, you know, like a domestic drama or even just yeah, really really anything that that um comes close to the feeling that the film gives him. Maybe it's better that he doesn't, because how where how are you gonna improve? How are

you gonna you know? Yeah, and this movie was a real throwback to um, I mean said in seventy three, but a throwback to a time when they were making these adult dramas um that they certainly don't feel like they make anymore. And I don't even think they were making that much, right, Yeah, I mean already it was,

it was starting to it. I mean, it had been turning whatever you want to say, like Star Wars and and all the rest of it late seventies, but um, certainly, like by the nineties there was that that kind of moment, that resurgence of the independent film and sun Dance and all that kind of stuff was happening. But yeah, the kind of like big budget adult drama that we used to see all the time in the seventies. Yeah, this was an eighteen million dollar budgeted film. This would be

made for like five dollars today. Yeah, it would imagine they paid the cast pretty well. Yeah, yeah, because I can't imagine what else they were spending on. Yeah, I mean, m I know, it was a bunch of interiors and with a few locations. Yeah, they did shoot it in like the real New Canaan, which is interesting, which which maybe that could have added to the budget if it wasn't necessarily like a film friendly or film ready type

city kind of. But yeah, not not that much. Well, I mean, you're I guess you're paying to have the casting crew stay there because you're not shooting in like La or New York. Location is always a bit more, But we'm on commercial eighteen million dollar is worth it? Yea, certainly not. But what's your take on the Fantastic Four stuff? It's I love this kind of narration. It's a little on the nose, but to to say sort of explicitly say like sort of this is the theme of this film.

I think it. I think it really it really uh ties everything together in an important way. And there's it's it's funny because when the movie starts, is that in the book? First of all, I believe it is. Yeah, Um, I could be wrong about that. I'm pretty sure it's in the book that But there's only really like three kind of main chunks of voiceover in in the film.

That's sort of like beginning, middle end, everything else is without voiceover, but each time it comes in, it just has this way of really connecting and really kind of um reinforcing the themes of the film, Like you said, amost outright stating them in terms of the idea about

family and um, family like fighting with itself. Um. The the idea of like the negative zone, that that this this place where you know, life doesn't quite work out the way you think it should and it almost feels like a mistake has been made and like you've entered into the bad timeline or something, you know, and I we've all had that feeling. Um. But um, and yeah, the idea that some people go all the way into it and maybe never come back out again. UM. I

think that's very interesting. I think it's interesting to pull that, you know, from a comic book. Um. And it just goes to show that that these these themes, I mean, they can be communicated in so many different mediums, and comic books can can take on like serious adult themes too. Yeah. And it's worth pointing out too because I remember at the time and when I saw this was prey All the superhero movie, right, So when he was talking about The Fantastic Four and relating it to like everyday life.

It was really really cool. Yeah yeah, and you would you'd never see it done today, I don't think by a drama because it would just kind of be like, well, why are you referencing something that's like so so ubiquitous. Um? So yeah, I mean I I think that's It's also interesting because Paul Hood is like sixteen years old, so while he's he's reading like Dostoyevsky in in school and he's idiot, Yeah, the idiot. Um. He's like, if you love Notes from Underground, you will love the idiot. The

idiots like the idiot yea. Um. But yeah, so he it reminds you in a way he's still a kid too, but but he's he's beginning to have more of an adult perspective on these things from childhood that he's able to see what maybe the writers are are really getting at, whereas a younger, you know, reader might just think about the fights and the cool superpowers and that sort of thing,

you know. But he's he's really starting to kind of realize that they're they're lay years to this and that family is this really complicated, like love it or hate it or both kind of thing. Yeah, and it's it also does that thing that I love is when a movie starts at the end. Yes, it's just it's one of my favorite devices. When I've written screenplays, I've tried to use it. I've tried to force it in there. Uh,

and when it works, it really works. There's something really satisfying about um because it's sort of like you almost forget that beginning when you're in the flow of the movie, and then when it comes up again to realize, oh, the movie has been building back up towards itself and now it's going to kind of finish out. Yeah, and not in the way because it can be done in a lot of ways. It can be done in like an action film where someone is like dying or something.

And this is not that. This is a very small little thing, which is a kid being picked up at the train station. Uh, but it's as you learn to find out, there's a lot more going on in that scene than you certainly know at the beginning, even in terms of whether the train has power or not. And you think about how that relates to what happens with uh, the Alijah Wood character, you know. Yeah, and boy, that's that shot of the of the train creaking to a halt.

And you've been around like storms the silence, yes, either, and snow does the same thing. It just dampens everything. And that early you know, the lights went dark and the train goes and it's just dead quiet. Were you here when the when the blizzard happened? Were you like out west at that point? I was where was my nine three? I was in Athens. I was in college. Okay,

so you do you remember that blizzard that winter? Yeah? Yeah, I mean that's that's kind of the strongest association I have, um, for those in or not from Georgia, Like there was a kind of like freak blizzard that happened, I want to say around like March or something, maybe February, but I feel like it was like you know, later in the season, and um, it was a big party in Athens, of course, yeah, of course. In in in suburban Rosal, Georgia,

it was a little more like the ice storm. Yeah yeah, yeah, you know, no power for for multiple days and yeah, ice storms are weird looking too, Like it's different than a snowstorm. Well, they were like thunderstorms happening. So you couldn't really even like go play outside the snow it was it wasn't like a fund snow. It was just

sort of like the elements, you know. Um, and when the trees freeze over, it's just everything there's a weight everything, Everything feels burdened and fragile, right, and and there's there's something real beautiful about it, but there's also like, you know, some danger to it, and and it's kind of Yeah, the movie does such a great job of of of conveying that silence. It's just like the wind chimes and kind of the the crackling of the ice and the trees as the wind blows them. It's the title of

the film, yeah, for a reason. Yeah, it wasn't called you know, the what was the name of the family, the Hoods, Yeah, it was it called the Hoods or anything like that. It was called the Ice Storm. Yeah. Well, I'm thinking about it. The name of the other family, the Carvers, and the book there the Williams is so they change to the Carver, which I imagine as a

reference to Raymond Carver. Could be wrong, but I mean I think he he's certainly this film and his short stories share a lot of the same DNA kind of in terms of the themes of you know, suburban alienation and and sort of every day Yeah, the every day Carver is a little more working class, and I think this film is is set to more like kind of upper middle class milieu, but you know, the same same underlying feeling that, Um, you know, America is kind of a sad place with a lot of people that are

lonely and alienated and so on and so forth. Yeah, let's talk about some of these characters Kevin Klein, and you know, we'll we'll do it as we go to, but I want to talk about him for a minute. Yes, Ben Hood is he's such a dope. He's so dopey, but he doesn't he's not a dummy, and those are

two different things. Um, he never he's always trying to force something to happen unnaturally, whether it's you know, the perfect Thanksgiving dinner or asking Wendy to say grace, which is like she didn't want to say grace, And if you knew your daughter, you would know she doesn't want to say great. Yeah, like he should have known what was coming. They on the commentary, they say that he's basically proceeding as if it were almost the nineteen fifties.

He has that kind of like father knows best thing going on. Yeah, he's checked out, but he's also at the same time he himself is doubting and skeptical about that. So sometimes he tries to play the stern father, but he immediately kind of gives in. It's all an act. Yeah,

he is not. He's always playing something. It's like when, um, you know, when Wendy is on the telephone in her room and he pulls the cord and she calls him a fascist and uh, and he goes, if I were a fascist, I would say need a military school somewhere down south, you know. Yeah, he slams the door, go to bed, and then maybe a one beat later he opens that door a kid, sorry, you know, and I love there, like he's such a dopey character. But there are a couple of great moments where that one and

then obviously the one where he carries her home. Yeah, just like the yeah, and again like the way he does that stern like you come with me right now, a young lady, you know, it really puffs his chest out. Well, he has to do that in front of Mikey. I think, and then on the way home, as soon as he's walking home, he's like, look it, I don't really care. He's like, I don't really care about I just don't think he's right for you. Like there's there's pragmatic. That

is one of my favorite exchanges in the movie. Yeah, you know, I really don't care. I just don't think he's right for you. And then he says, when you get older, you have a certain sense about whether or not things are going to work out with someone and whether the mess is worth it. Yeah. Yeah, And and he's fucking right, man is He's totally right there, but he is a mess. Like for him to be giving advice on relationships is a joke because he's having an affair.

B he's so checked out that he thinks he's getting away with it. Yeah, you know, he's he's not noticing all all the signs and clues, and it's so obvious to anybody that's really observant. And when he's any when he's finally busted, it's such a it's such a real moment because it's not a big fight, it's not a I got you and he denies it. It's very quiet and just sad because she has that she she could have had that moment with with the cup the mug.

You know, she could have confronted him and said whatever, like the mug still here, or I took the mug back, or however it is that she knows that he's lying, which they don't even reveal, which is kind of perfect. Yeah, all she says is like that stupid fucking mug. You know, she's kind of like I thought she was going to run and get it out of the exactly, Like that's what I think more obvious for done. But it's like, oh,

you mean this mug exactly. Yeah, It's just yeah. And I love that they never really even use the word affair. I don't think, at least not you know, within uh, just Benjamin and Elena. It's it's like she's she's doing the dishes. I mean, I love um. I love that there's in that scene, it's not just two characters standing in a room, back and forth conversation. They're both kind of they're getting ready to go out to this party. She's doing the dishes. They're emptying the dishes into the

into the trash can. He like drops the plate when he's scraping food off because he's on edge. And um, yeah, there's so much, so much that's revealed through behavior, and it just feels so true to life that these situations never play out in like a vacuum. There's always life going on in the background. And sometimes it's kind of like, you know what we're gonna do. We're gonna have this big argument right now. She says to him, Um, you know, don't don't start. Um, you know, I don't think this

is this is not gonna be a good conversation. I don't think you want to have it right now or something like that. They both they both know exactly what's going on, but uh, they just they just kind of sold drawing through it. Yeah, man, and without getting too personal. Um, a lot of this movie mirrors what I grew up with, and um it is astounding and profoundly sad and depressing. What what some people can accept and live with for years.

Oh it's yeah, it's terrifying actually that that that you think. Um yeah, I mean I have that feeling a lot when I, um, when you know, for instance, when I read like the lives of artists and so on and so many that that go on to succeed. They have these moments where they kind of make a really forceful break with the thing that they're from or the life they're living. Maybe it's a job that they quit or

you know, they take like that really big shot. But then there's so many other people that don't do that that just kind of say, oh what if, or oh there's all these other reasons not to and so on, and it's yeah, that's that's kind of where that's how, you know, Benjamin Hood, that's how he ends up where he is by just kind of not having the courage of his own convictions, kind of just kind of um muddle his way through his life and to not really listen to, you know, what his heart is telling him.

You know, this is not right, I don't feel this anymore whatever. He Um. There's that moment early on when they're having the dinner party and um, and he's almost bragging that they're not going to couples therapy anymore, and that he's like, you know, the only real big fight we've had in years was about couple of therapy. It's a couple of therapy itself. Yeah, they're not fighting, yeah, but it's like you should be a little bit. You know,

they're dead, Yeah, exactly exactly, it's a funeral. Yeah, it's worse than it's much worse than fighting. It's just kind of there's like a range when when you look at this, uh, these lives that some of us grew up with in some play out in a film, from an abusive relationship that you stay in all the way to just this stage play that you can manage to do for years. And it is sad because like, you know, get those

years back. And also the the really interesting thing that the movie shows us is that you know, the parents almost think that they're they're keeping up a facade. Maybe they're staying you know, they're quote unquote staying together for the kids. And and that's the thing is that the kids know everything. The parents don't think the kids know,

but they know. They don't miss a beat. You know, when when Wendy's you know, sitting there watching Nixon on the TV, but she hears the fight happening in the kitchen and there's shots of her and you can tell that she knows. Maybe she's not hearing every word, but she hears the tone of voices and it's and she just knows mom and dad are fighting. Yeah, and the way like that's like one of the first things that she talks about with his with her brother when he

comes home. It's like, how are the parents doing? Do you think they're headed for divorce? Like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that uh yeah. This movie really hit home for me. And I mean, yeah, the I mean I remember that so much too from from growing up, Like my parents had a pretty good relationship, but there are times when there were fights and and you know, I remember like standing at the top of the stairs and hearing like

and just like that feeling of like that. That's also I think part of growing up in a way is realizing like, oh, this isn't picture perfect sometimes, you know, good people can disagree and and there can be tension and so on. Um, it's part of that, like you're losing that that sort of idealized childhood view of the world and you're you're coming into something much more complex and scary. Yeah, I will say this, uh, and again, I don't want to get into my history too much

because it's just sad. But what it does is it leaves a child feeling very unmoored. Yeah. Yeah, because because those those rock solids are not so solid anymore so solid. Yeah, it's it's a bad feeling. Um. I love the uh, the nix and stuff and the character of Wendy how she's Um, it's a time where she's developing. It's a time in America with the e Coal Rights Amendment and

um feminism. I guess is this which wave with this have been second way second way feminism in the early seventies and her coming into her own as a woman because she's always the one calling the shots with the boys. She's the one that's saying I'll show you mine if you show me yours, or let's get into bed together, or I'm gonna take my pants down and you can look at it, but you can't touch it. And like she's setting the rules and it's sort of this little

proto feminist. She's the one railing against the establishment and Nixon and like Kevin Klein, just like what he's got on his hands is this great daughter that is going to be a fully realized woman. And I don't think he even realizes that. Yeah he um, I mean he loves his daughter. You can tell he has a genuine affection and cares for her, but at the same time, he's a little bit i rolly when he sees you know sure, it's like it's like he's not really listening now.

He's like, all right, can we cut it with a you know, presidential assassination talk or yeah it's it's again. He's playing. He's like, this is what I should say? Yeah, yeah, not. I don't think he ever really speaks from his heart except in moment a couple of moments, will drop the facade once in a while. But he but then he kind of maybe because he feels exposed, he kind of puts that armor back up again and he's back into

you know, robot Dad. Well when he when he finally gets busted for real again, you know, we talked about it a second ago that it's not some big fight, and he very just sadly just says, I don't even feel good about it. Yeah, He's like, it's not it's not what you think. It's not some big plot because she thinks that they've coordinated this whole thing, the keys

and so on, and it's not. It's not satisfying. It's just like he's just like, no, it's you know, it's just it's just a dumb thing that happened really and and but that's the truth. Yeah, he doesn't have a

relationship with with Sigourney Weaver's Garrett. But it's funny because he Angley makes this observation on the commentary that, you know, the kind of stereotypical midlife crisis, a guy like Benjamin Hood might date a much younger woman, for instance, in this case, he's dating like someone around his age from the neighborhood. I think it convenient, Yeah, exactly, it's the convenience is the biggest thing. But when they are in bed, he's actually he starts talking about like the guy his

work that's taking private golf, dope thing. He's so unaware, but he's he's kind of he's slipping into that almost like marriage, Like territory was like unloading about his day to day boring shit, and she's just like boring me. I've got a husband, I don't particularly need another. So it's interesting that he is almost trying to connect in a way, in his dopey way, he's trying to make a connection. It happens all over this film ham Fisted

Lee unsuccessfully. Almost always people are trying to make connections. Joan Allen I mean, what a what a role, and what an acting job she does. You know, she is in a loveless marriage, she's going through the motions of this stage play that she lives every day, and that moment when she sees Wendy on the bicycle is it's almost like dreamlike or something. It's kind of there, you know, she's sing this like it's like she's time traveling, you know, back to when she was that young and that free

and everything. And she immediately she just can't help herself. She says, I haven't been on a bike in years. It's like instinct took over and she just had to say that out loud. And going to shoplift, you know, the drug store. There's so many moments like that bike scene that are so small but so impactful. And this movie, like more than many movies I've seen, do a lot with a little Yeah, the the minimalist kind of approach

is so important. The restraint, the fact that these these moments are just allowed to to unfold, you know, without commentary, without kind of emphasis. Even that that we're in a way because reading the first the first chapter of the book again, you you have it's basically it's the scene where where Benjamin Hood is in the guest room at the Carver's he's waiting for Sigourney Weaver to come back, and which is hysterical because again he's so dope and

unaware she ain't coming back. Everyone in the theater, no, she's not coming back, and he's like, well, I guess she just stepped out for a minute. Yeah. In the in the book, you know, you're you're sort of inside the perspective of his mind, his thoughts and so on and um, and so you're you're getting these these little vignettes from all throughout his life and he's thinking back in the book he's had a previous affair with somebody from like the office Christmas party where they had really

bad sex in a car one time. I think that's probably the model for Yeah, Um, I believe they kind of transpose that a little bit. But it's a great device. Yeah. But but I think, um, it's so interesting because the novel is so interior facing in terms of you're just in somebody's thoughts in a stream of conscious the way they're thinking, and it's it's it's something that is would

be nearly impossible to adapt. You would think and and the way that it's adapted here is so different because the film is much more about surfaces and about being being somewhat distant and outside the thing, but being able

to see enough inside to know what's happening. But it's it's sort of like the tip of the iceberg that we're seeing, you know, and there's so much submerged beneath that we don't see that we only can kind of into it from what we are seeing, but it is in the book, it's it's kind of him just feeling like thirty nine, I'm losing my hair, like I'm in

this marriage. We haven't at sex in in two years. Um. Just he's thinking about, you know, when when he first met his wife back in college, and even then he kind of it's so sad because they meet it like a college party. He's really drunk. He starts talking to her, and it's almost like he wants to stop talking, but through like social awkwardness or pressure something, he just continues. And that's almost how their relationship starts. Was his almost

like inability to to act or to do something. He just kind of like sleepwalks his way through his entire life. You know, he just bumbles into this marriage and kids and the job and everything else. Is just kind of He's he's not somebody that's acting with any kind of intention. He's just kind of, oh, I guess this is what I'm supposed to do, right, no intention, no awareness. It's really interesting. Um the speaking of subtle moments and the fact that Angle just plays it all so like real.

Is the moment early on at the dinner party when the wine is spilled on Kevin Klein's lap and there's yeah, there's that really quick thing where Sigourney Weaver is the one that jumps up, yeah to dab his pants pants. Yeah, and it didn't even have to be the crotch um just kind of down down somewhere low and and and ye Joan Allen has that moment where she leaves where she sees like they're a little they're a little familiar, they're a little comfortable. Yeah, but I get the feeling

that she already knew and this was just further confirmation. Right, Yeah, I think so too. That's what I thought. That's definitely not the first sign of trouble. I love that scene. Also a little bit later on when um, uh, Kevin Kline leans into kiss Joan Allen tell her he's going to go to bed early, and she notices his aftershave is different, and he tries to play it off. He's like, oh, yeah,

it's it's it is a new after show. I mean it's called Musk and uh, and he just kind of like wanders off, you know, and her if you just like really sit on her reaction, which the you know, the camera does sits on her reaction, and just if you just look at the subtle changes in her face, like you can see everything that she understands completely, that

everything that's going on. But she's like balancing her checkbook and she just tears out a new check and kind of like shoves it all down, just moves on, you know, yeah, because the bills still have to get paid and the dishwasher sells to get loaded, and that's like that brutal thing that you know, life has to go on. Yeah, yeah, in the face of this just void unbearable. You know when it when it kind of you know, when the void kind of exposes itself in that way, like we've

become aware of it. As as an audience member, you you're you so want someone maybe because you're conditioned in films to see this, but you still want her to smash the plate and to start screaming at him. And that's not the reality of it though, man, Like this is how it goes a lot of times, the lives of a quiet desperation, you know. Um. So Elijah Wood's character, Mikey, Um, seeing it again as an older person, I was like,

does he have a diagnosis? I think, um, because when I was before, I was just like, oh, he's just a weird kid. But like Sigourney Weaver even has that uh well, the Mikey has been out of it since he was born. The father says, I guess he kind of takes after his dad, you know. Yeah, but it's also light and I think I think it might be like maybe Asperger exactly. Yeah, yeah, I could definitely see that, which you would play it in nineteen seventy three for

like just a quirky kid. He's out of it back then. To look for those signs or to kind of recognize is um that football moment on the field where he just like, yeah, he z owns out in the ball

falls and um. But then you know, and perhaps it is Asperger's because he's very smart and very into, uh, the idea of geometry when he's explaining and that's one of my favorite scenes actually, when he's explaining to Sandy why he loves geometry and math and about space and he's trying to make a connection and what is Sandy's responses, I just need to do my homework. Yeah, I just needed help with my math. Like it's such a like real moment between it's like exactly how it would go down. Yeah.

I think, Um, I think it's very telling that he is interested in in geometry because it's this kind of abstract thing that's not really related. I mean, it is related to the material world, but it's also not because it's kind of there's perfection in geometry and there's no perfection in the world, you know, and um, you know, I mean he says as much. He's like, you know, you can't really have like a perfect a for a perfect cube in you know, in terms of space in reality,

but but you can in your mind. And so he's he's interested in this kind of other world where, you know, mathematics is kind of a it's like a self contained perfect system, like everything adds up and and everything there's there's no like ambiguity per se. I mean obviously once you get higher into like theoretical stuff and is about proofs exactly, and and life is all about gray zone and you know, uh ambivalence. So um, yeah, it's very

interesting that that he has this kind of um. It's almost like he's he's he's looking for something he's finding maybe that that sense of security or or or stable stability permanence um in in this kind of you know, mathematic form. But but it's ultimately um, you know, it can't be reconciled with with reality. And he kind of pays like the ultimate price for that. Yeah. And in that scene, uh, I felt so much empathy for both

of those boys. Is trying to trying to connect. But I felt bad from Mikey because he's, uh, he's not able to connect with his brother on this thing that's important to him. And I felt bad for Sandy because he's just this kid. He didn't know what he's talking about. He's talking about this abstract time and space and geometry,

and Sandy just wants help with this map. There's just a few too many years apart at that point to to make that connection and then of course the dad comes home right in the middle, you know, immediately following that that brutal, horrible like remember the line from Mikey He's like he were gone, Yeah, you were gone. Yeah I'm backfellas you were gone. And then he just kind of laughs like yeah yeah, And and man talks about you know, Sumi conductors and silicon and trying to make

a connection. And then again can't do just zero interest on on the part of the kids because it's pretty boring to a kid, I'm sure, and um, just an awkward silence and like, well, see you later, you know, right, it's just oh god, damn, this movie is fucking devastating, brutal. Yeah, the clandestine love it mean, Wendy and Mikey is so sweet. Um, and you know, I remember those those early days, like you know they when they met in the empty the pool pool to like kiss each other and make out.

Funny because it's not even really romantic what they're doing. It feels like they're trying to learn, they're experimenting. Yeah, they're they're just sort of like you're curious, I'm curious, Let's try this and see what this is. Because it seems like adults are doing this, and it seems like something that older people care about a lot, and you know, it's in movies and so on. So let's let's see what this is all about. I was too scared to

do that stuff, Casey. Yeah, oh yeah, same, so it was, you know, but there's almost something mechanical about the way they're going about it, the way they're kind of like making out um, and then the way the camera kind of booms up in cranes and and and you yeah, the leaves on the you know, the bottom of the swimming pool and um. Again, the sense of isolation, the fact that it's an empty pool and and all that just kind of hammers home that again, these are people

looking for connection. And I mean, so much of of of what the movie is about is, you know, on one level, it's about sex, but on a deeper level, it's about people using sex to try to connect and and and sort of not getting that result from it, you know, instead just kind of having experiences that that don't really ultimately achieve any kind of true connection or yeah, well, I mean Paul, you know, eventually, when they get to the parallel stories of Paul in the city trying to

connect with libits Libits, libits. The name is libits. Yeah, um, the same thing, miss connections. Oh yeah. That that that that painful, painful moment where you know he's he's trying to He's saying, like, I feel a real connection to you, and she's like, I do too, and he can say it before she says it, you know, she's like like a like a like a brother. You know, He's like, yeah, you're not alone in that opinion. God, it's just the worst.

And then one of the my favorite lines in the movie, in a really clever line, is when he goes, you want to take it back together. I love that. I love that he almost kind of pulls it off there almost. Yeah, everybody. Yeah. Um. Before we get into more of the movie itself, let's talk about the score. Oh yes, Michael Dana Who is it? Michael Dana who who works a lot with Adam mcgoyana, Uh,

you Canadian filmmaker. Yeah? And like The Sweet Hereafter by Chance, which is a beautiful score and also an equally crushing film, if not more even Yeah another was that a wintertime film? Yes? Oh yeah, because it's a school bus and you know, sort of sort of reminds me of this two different movies for sure, But but it could be a good double feature. You just want to be insanely depressed if

you want to wreck yourself. Um. But yeah, Michael Danna, he's worked with also like Terry Gilliam, um Mire and their Um he's he's but but Adam mcgoyan like he he works with him over and over and over. What is going still doing stuff? He is? Yeah, he's kind of Um, he used to be one of my favorites man, and I kind of lost track he I mean, he has a film every every couple of years. Yeah, but but he's kind of like I haven't seen one pile.

They're much more low profile. Um, I think you know, they play festivals, but they don't really play like the first run of like Ken Venice, Toronto, et cetera. They're kind of like second Yeah, it's you know, but I really need to catch up because he is somebody that um, you know, even even presweetter after he has a whole like eighties and he's like, you know, very very kind of bold, strong stuff and I'm sure he's kept at it. So what was the one about the missing girl? Mm hmm,

is that Exotica? I don't know, Yes, yeah, okay, that's the only one I've seen, and but um uh it's been a really long time. I barely remember that movie other than like the Strip Club and Elius Cotaius and yeah, who was one of his guys? Yeah you go back to but you have a score in this movie is just so great. Um. I mean there's sort of some lush string stuff, but what really stands out to me is that I don't even know what instrument that is

called gamelan. I mean it's not the name of the instrument, but the genre of music, the drums, the kind of percussion percussion, Yeah, and there's some there's some wind instrument. Yeah, well that's that's a Native American flute, yeah, being being played by like a you know, somebody who practices that tradition, an American guy. Oh yeah, it's got it's got a real like soulfulness to it. I mean it's kind of like in a way, it's like the most the movie

exposes that kind of yeah emotion. You know, it's dark and it's sad in in Uh, it just somehow fits that there's like a belonging to it forest of and maybe that's part of it in a Native American with the with the forest and the tree setting natural settings. Well, it's like, you know what Wendy says that Thanksgiving, you know, and what what even Thanksgiving is about? Yeah, or versus what we think it's about, versus what the reality was

and so on and so forth. That great so um yeah, in a way, it's it's not something that the film hammers home, but there is that that slight subtext of like, these people are living you know, the the American Experiment has been around for a couple of well they're coming up on the bi centennial for three years and um, you know two hundred years of this country and everything that that that transpired for this country America to be here.

Um yeah. And in the way that that Wendy brings it up at Thanksgiving and they're just like alright, alright, alright, you know, never mind past the turkey or whatever, would you like a role? Yeah? Um. It's amazing how quickly they're all able to brush and go back to the stage exactly exactly. It's like, come on, don't, don't, don't make this any harder than it is. You know, let's just get through this because this is supposed to be the easy Thanksgiving because even says Grandma's not yea, even

though we miss her, I love that. Yeah, it's like, of course, of course we still miss her. But because he feels like he needs to say that again. Yeah, Christina Ricci is so good in this movie. Like I've been a fan of hers her whole career, off and on. Things she's made have been really good. But like, I don't know if she got her do as an actor. No, really she didn't. Um. I mean I love Buffalo sixty six.

That's that's another one I could do for the show. Um, but she's so good performance and in that one, and yeah, she she just Um, I don't know what it is about her. She has such a compelling kind of presence on on screen. Her her face can do so much, you know, can of mote so well, and she has this intensity and um, and I mean she it's so good to play kind of like the smarter beyond her

years kind of teenager character. Um. She she's just Um, I think she was maybe sixteen when they're filming this, and she's playing like maybe fourteen or so. Um. I mean, you know, it's completely believable. Um but um, yeah, she's she's certainly one of the highlights of the film. Yeah. But the the scene, you know, we mentioned it before when he carries her home, like how she can kind of go from you know, playing at adult burgeoning sexuality

ing back to year old childhood of adden. She wraps her legs around him and the reverse of that, they do that great reverse on on both her faces when their necks are cradled into one another, and it's just like fucking heartbreaking, because I mean, you know, I hope

you have kids one day. There's the constant from the second they're born you immediately start fearing them going away, right, Yeah, that that push pull between like I wanted to see them flourish and foundingly fast I've grown up and at the same time, no, wait, come back. Yeah, it's it's amazing how fast it sets in of oh, no, you're gonna leave me one day? Yeah yeah, God, can't even go there case Jesus Christ, be weepy mess on this

fucking show. But that scene, to think of that Beatles song She's leaving home or something, Yeah, stop it, what are you trying to do to me here? Um? But you know, they're able to in that brief moment to make that connection. Um. I feel like Joan Allen never gets to make that connection. Uh. She with Wendy, and Wendy tries to connect with her mom. There's that scene, um where she says to her mom there in the kitchen and she goes, Mom, are you all right? And

she goes, no, it's fine. You know. Well, however, though, in that scene, um, she's trying to explain to Wendy the feeling that she got when she saw her on the bike. Yes, and she's saying this deep thing, Yeah, that's her geometry conversation. Yeah, and when did you sort of like are you all right? Yeah? Like there's no like, oh man, mom, that must have felt really special. Yeah,

they are. They're kind of missing each other. They're both trying to connect and everyone's missing each other through this whole fucking movie. It's so frustrating. But that that line

that she has, mom, are you all right? This concept that they talk about on the commentary of you know, children raising their parents, you know of of especially back then, yeah, of of you know this this like you said that the parents are kind of playing it being children and the children are playing it being adults and this generation you know, um, kind of fell weirdly in between, like there, it's not fully the seventies yet, it's not the sixties anymore.

They're just kind of like they're stranded in the middle sort of. And and it seems like they have, um, they're going to they're going to revert or not revert, but they're going to go towards the more. They're going to want more stability. They're going to grow up to be maybe more like traditional sort of parents, let's say, a little more strict, a little bit more like um, watchful of their kids, let's say, because their their childhoods

are coming out of this like permissiveness and indifference almost difference. Yeah, and so they're going to kind of the pendulum is gonna swing in the other direction for them. Yeah. And this is sort of again something that I can relate to, and I think it was sort of of the time, is that parents can be so consumed with their own ship. Yeah back then especially Uh, it's probably swung too far

in the other direction now, but the whole helicopter thing. Yeah, but that that these kids are sort of on their own, Yeah, I mean I think that was that's coming from. It's sort of like the zeitgeist at that moment. There's all the New agey stuff, the self help, the kind of like you know, quote unquote spirituality that's not necessarily religious per se, especially for the women of that era, because they're coming out of the fifties and sixties where women

were truly you know, subjective to their husbands. And the early seventies and I think probably late sixties was when some of that first started, some of these that's when

all those books. And there's that great shodow when she's looking at the table when there were so many books for women to like reclaim your life basically reclaim your life person exactly and and and sort of, um, give give proper attention to all these things that you've put aside for all these years, at the at the behest of your husband or at the behest of your children or whatever. So it's it's this kind of thing where

they are they are trying to grow as people. They're trying to become more fully rounded adults and so on. Full yeah, equal and just have have like a full rich life, not just the life of servitude and um. But but at the same time there is like this, you know, maybe the pendulum going too far in terms of the parents. Like you know, when Wendy mentions in passing that she's like in band and both, you know, her mom is just sort of like, oh, I thought

you weren't in band anymore. She's like, well, you know, um, they don't even they don't, it's not a big deal. And you know, I only play a few notes anyway, like because she doesn't hear rehearsing practicing anymore, but it's because she just plays like the same three notes over and over. And yeah, just just that since that, uh that you would be unthinkable today, certainly for most parents to not know, um what what kind of extracurriculus our

kids are involved in? And so yeah, but at the same time, um, I think I do know that there are there are people from that generation that are certainly nostalgic for that that style of childhood. That kind of there was a recent uh um kind of an article or trend about this, like the the idea of like

free range parenting. Ye that okay, yeah, so it's the idea that, for instance, you know, a kid that's maybe no older than like ten to twelve or something could like live in New York City, take the subway, go to like you know, some CD theater and like watch like an R rated movie, or that you would let your ten year old walk to the playground in your neighborhood. Yeah. So just and the fact that, um, you know, they

were way pre cell phone. There's there's there's there's not this constant line of communication that can be opened up between the parent and child. So it's like, um, you know in that scene where Kevin Klein is is leaving the house to go pick up Paul at the and he, you know, he says to Wendy, what are you even doing? She does nothing, you know, typical teenager answer. But um, it's like they just they don't know. They don't want

to know necessarily. I mean, they make the effort in a way at least they kind of yeah, they play at it, um, but they just don't know what's going on in their kids lives. Really. Yeah. Well, and when he does pick him up in the car, you know, on the way home, that that conversation between yeah, yeah, I mean and at first though it's just no, yes, no, yeah, and then you know, well it's probably a good time to have that talk self self abuse, self abused self

abuse front. Yes, oh man. And again it's just there's no connections being made. But it's a funny. It's a funny button on that scene where they pull into the driveway and he's like, Paul, could you give me a favor and pretend I never said any of that to you? And yuh and you get you know, it's not like it's a movie you can look at and say, like they don't have a good relationship Paul and Ben. Uh, it's not that, it's just they just don't have much

of anything. Yeah, you know, which is maybe the saddest thing of all. Absolutely, they're just kind of thee oh they're they're they're two strangers. Basically, you would think they were acquaintances or something rather than like you know, father and son. Yeah, and then you know, they don't have many funny moments. There are a couple of, uh, like the waterbed. They play that for laughs, but aside from that,

they kind of just played the seventies fairly straight. Yeah, It's it's certainly not like going over the top with like just the kind of cliches that we associate with that period. It's not Yeah, it's not a cartoon version of the seventies, not at all. It's it's a very lived in There are still some of those familiar signposts. I think we see a lava lamp in somebody's room at some point, but it's like it's not like you

know underlined during that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. What is your take on the Let's talk about the preacher for a minute. Who I didn't look up that actor. Yeah I didn't either. Very good I've ever seen him, but he was really good at this. You know, the sort of long haired

you know that's a wig too. They when they're when they're when they're talking in the um, when when she's at that table of books, Um, there's a you know, it's kind of a windy day and so like the wind kind of blows his hair back, and um, Angley is talking about he just like during the scene he kind of reaches up and brushes his hair back behind his ear, which to Angley anyway, was like a great performance choice because it kind of shows that he's like

this he's had, this has this kind of vanity to him. Um, that he's he's kind of like posing, you know, he's sort of aware of of of how he's coming off, and he has this kind of cockiness to him, even though he's trying to also present himself as like the enlightened one. Yeah, I thought that was a really himself. Yeah. I thought like just having him in the film at all was an interesting choice, and and there was more of him it was apparently in the film. Yeah, the film.

Apparently there was another scene between um, between him and Eleanor where they're like in a cafe and they're talking and um, you know, from from their description, you know, it was a good scene, but it just kind of the tone maybe deviated a little too much from the film.

They talked a lot about on the commentary about how there were there were sort of numerous scenes and moments that on their own are really great and funny, but it just, you know, in their words, it kind of made the ending too unbearable to to to vacillate from these moments of levity and then still in so darkly. I thought they really nailed the tone whatever they was kind yeah, it stays pretty well in that in that mood and um, but yeah, the Preacher character, it's all

over this movie. Oh yeah, he um he feels probably is lost is or maybe more I mean the people that he's he's he's so so desperate to to kind of connect her, to to find something that's meaningful to him, that he's kind of oriented his whole life towards that, you know, towards this kind of life of being a new age, spiritual right grew whatever you wanna call it, you know. Yeah, And in the end, he's, uh, it's

such a great payoff for that character. He ends up at the key party, which we'll get to in just a second or um, and ends up shamed into leaving. But you know that line when he says, even the shepherd needs the company of the flock from time to time or whatever, and boy, she just eviscerates him. You're gonna try very hard not to understand the implication of that statements, like like, I didn't see that coming yet.

I remember the first time I saw that, I thought she would have understood, maybe because she's in a similar place where she needs a connection and she has gone without sex clearly in her own marriage. Um, although they do do it it. Yeah, that is true. There's Um there's the first scene where Kevin Klein tries to initiate.

He has that great performance where his hand kind of reaches over her in bed and she goes, Ben, yeah, and he just pulls it back in his hand kind of trembles and you know, rolls back over and goes to sleep. But they do make love, Yeah, they do. Well,

it's implied at least, but they do it. They do it at a moment where they're about to say something and and she actually says to him like, Ben, maybe no talking right now, and then they almost have sex as a way of diffusing whatever was about to transpire. But absolutely, so you know the it's it's not really

I mean they are. They're making a sort of connection, but they're not really they're using it to, you know, to to to stave off like whatever big blow up is gonna Yeah, you definitely get the picture that afterward. It wasn't like, oh my god, we're we reconnected again

and we're on the right track. But I love that moment when when Wendy's coming up the stairs, you know, her her dad's come down the stairs and he's kind of doing up the last button on his and um, then she sees the must up bed, yeah exactly, and and there's there's no spoken words or anything, but again, it's one of those moments where, um, you know you really it's like, oh, my parents do kind of have like a sexual relationship, and that's weird and uncomfortable, you know,

all that, all those conflicted feelings you have. Well, speaking of weird and uncomfortable, nice transition into the bathroom scene with Sandy and Wendy. It's just like, has there ever been a more real, brutal depiction of like young adolescent hormonal like confusion exactly not not knowing. I mean, he says to her, He's like, what do you want? What

do you want? You know? Well, because he's neither one of them know what they want really, and his little hands are trembling at hisself, like I wanted to yank him out of there and just give him a hug. I know. It was so brutal to see this kid so scared. Um, and then that's when you get the great exchange with Succordingly. Yes, but yeah, the just like the the look on both of their faces. I don't know how they got that performance out of that kid.

And yeah, little man Tate because because they have to um too. That was yeah, because I think Um, I mean this is this is a common thing. And and and movies that have like really adult themes but have to involve like very young actors, oftentimes there will be like a parallel scene that the kid thinks they're playing that is you know, that diverges wildly from the real

substance of the thing. Yeah. I know, like in particular, like in The Shining Danny, you know, he in a lot of those scenes, he was kind of enacting a different scenario than because you you just need a reaction. It's believable. Yeah. I always wonder in movies like this, like at the premiere when these kids, like when that little kids goes to the premieres, Like, what does he think of the ice storm? Can you even watch it? You know? Does till he's older sometimes they can't? Yeah, um?

Or does he have to see like a you know, just a highlight reel or something. These are the scenes of yours that are okay, yeah, although I mean there's nothing overtly. I mean there's the bad sex scene in the car, and there's some, but there's not there's no explicit sex going No, there's like no no real like nudity or anything. Um. There's just kind of people fumbling around. But a kid certainly wouldn't understand this, yeah, yeah, way above it might be it might be kind of lost

on Yeah. Um again to the relationship with with the siblings. Uh, with Wendy and Paul, it's just like when they call each other Charles and that's such a nice little touch, you know, this little thing that they have together, and Uh, I have siblings, and again with my upbringing, like there's a there's a definite connection that happens with siblings. When you grow up in a house with parents that are not yeah in love, you're you're you're more bonded. It's

sort of like, yeah, there's a thing that happens. And then, uh, the saddest thing ever. And of course this movie can't cover it. Well, it sort of does because he's gone to prep school. Is especially when you're the youngest and my sister aged out and then it was me and my brother and he aged out and went to college and there was just me and my worst years were

after my brother left. And that's no coincidence. Yeah, Wendy, when you has that feeling, it's almost like, um, there's there's like a moment um, where Paul has left to go to the you know, to go to Manhattan to go to the party, and and now it's just Windy and the two parents and they don't even talk, and she gets up from the table without asking to be

excused or anything. She just you know, walks off into the kitchen kind of vaguely piste off looking, grabs like a snack from the fridge, and then just like walks past again, zero interaction, acknowledgement, nothing, And um, yeah, you have that, you really have that sense that she feels like stranded and that she's just waiting, counting down the days until she can get out. Yeah. And there's not a lot of use of popular music in this film,

but there's a couple of key ones. Um, the Manhattan scene when leave on by Elton John play Yes, And then in the scene we're just talking about with when when Paul first gets home. Yeah, Jim coaches I've Got a Name is in the background, and they had that great moment at the end of the scene after they've set everything, the record skips yeah, and he goes, Charles, is that my record? You've been touching my sheep, been touching my shop? Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's not adversarial.

It's like very loving. He's just like, I knew you were coming in my room because it's fine, you know, it's it's there. Really, it's it's her way of, you know, kind of kind of connecting with her brother, being around her brother. He's not there in a way because he

still has his things there. Um. I also thought it was interesting to how the when um kind of one of the next things is when Kevin Klein bust the kids and we've already talked about the wall come and all that, but when he gets home, he's just like he's got his chest puffed out, brushing his teeth, telling, uh, telling his wife about it. Well, here's what happened, and I took care of it. And he doesn't realize that he's fucking busting himself because the whole time so oblivious.

She's going, why the funk were you at there? You know, she finally says in the end, what were you doing in their basement? Yeah? Oh, you know the mug, the mug, the coffee mug. And he's just so oblivious that that's a really really uh interesting shot the way it's framed because in the middle of the shot you have like

a you know, door frame looking into the bathroom. The cameras in the bedroom they have like a you know, Florida ceiling mirror on the right side of the door frame, and that's where you see Joan Allen in that reflection. But it's very interesting because you're seeing both of their faces and they're looking at each other, and you know they're on opposite planes. But most of the scene plays

out with her in that reflection. It's not until later on that she steps in where you can see her shoulder, you know, Uh, the camera's kind of going over his shoulder a little bit. Um, just just showing I mean, there's so many um places in the film where he plays with you know, uh, people being separated and and and kind of left alone in the frame or disconnected

somehow or um. There's so much like glass, you know, and and kind of these these surfaces that are like transparent but do separate and and and are not really

like broken through. Yeah, it's it's preventing the connection. Um. The It is a very quietly sort of beautiful film cinematography wise, because it's not flashy at all, and they don't even have you know, even a movie that's not flashy can have these beautiful sunsets or something, right like, there's really none of that, but there's a lot going on.

There's there's like a very thoughtful I think there's there's like a handful of shots that that I consciously notice in the film, Like one would be that crane coming up, you know, when they're kissing. Another one that's probably my favorite shot of the film is where Elijah Wood is wearing that red um coat what are you gonna call it? Um? And he goes to leave the house and there's a shot from inside the house um focused on a window with rain drops, and you just see this red blob

move in the background. It's the frozen window. Yeah yeah, man, yeah, I love that shot. But there's not there's not too many shots like that in the film. It's it's very very sparingly used. It's not a film where I'm thinking from scene to scene, man, this is so well shot or like that. But when you when you force yourself to kind of look at it in that way, you do realize there's a whole lot going on on that level as well. It just works so well that you

don't even consciously notice it. Yeah, and those it's that window is starting to freeze. It's the moment where and and this is the moment where we are in the film. Is that great um part where the weather lady talks about the impending storm and it's all very you know, obviously metaphorical, but that really just sets up that whole

last part of the movie. Paul sets off for New York. Um, the weather is coming in that brutal cold, wetness and silence that like everyone who's ever certainly have you lived in the Northeast, but anyone who's ever been on like a storm like this. It's just so evocative. And that leads right to the key party. And right before we get to the key party, I just want to I do just want to say. The cinematographer the film, Frederick Elms, great cinematographer in his own right. He begins his career

with David Lynch. He shoots a razor head and even pre eracer head, which took them five years to make. So that's it wasn't like a traditional film. It was like they were living in that said and you know, just spending years and years of their lives to make this this film. But Even before that, he had shot one of David Lynch's very first UM short films, experimental short film called The Amputee and and he but he goes on to shoot like Blue Velvet and wild At

Hard and on and on and on. So he's also worked with like Jim Jarmush, Todd Solon's and Charlie Kaufman. He shot senecta Key, New York, which is one of my all time favorites. That film too, That movie confounded me. Have you do you only see it one time? Yeah? Oh man, I need to see it again. Huh Yeah, talk about depressing movies, that one. That one might be the uber depressed movie. But anyway, he Um. He also shot a film called River's Edge. Well you know that film? Yeah?

I love that film, kind of kind lynch in in its own way. Yeah, who directed that? Tim Hunter? What else has he done? He did a film called Text with um Matt Dylan Dylan okayo, and um he directed some episodes of twin Peaks. Um it's a lot of teenangs. Yeah exactly, that was. I think that's kind of his wheelhouse. And I'm not sure what he's really done. What. Riversedge was so good Rivers is fantastic, very underrated too. Yeah, yeah,

that's a good one. So now you know, once you get to the Key party, you start cross cutting and um, and it's such a great editing job. And editing, you know, doesn't have to be flashy to be like super effective. And I think it's a great example of that of great editing is the cross cutting between the Key party, the Manhattan Party and then Wendy and Mikey and Sandy's

story what's going on? And that's one of my favorite thing in movies when you have these parallel storylines and uh, you know, I mean, you know how it is the editing room, Like how long you stay in each place is can vary, and it's it's like, yeah, it's not math, it's like it's gut and it's emotional, like when you decide to leave each place to go to the next.

When you're watching it, just as a like as a viewer, you're you're not necessarily appreciating even how difficult that is to find the rhythm, the right rhythm, how long to stay in these places, because I'm sure they had no shortage of great material from that party especial, and and how to um, how to just like focus in on what is essential and what can be cut, you know,

and what's slowing the movie down and so on. You know, a more indulgent filmmaker could have just let that stuff run and run and run and all would have been very entertaining, I'm sure, but at a certain point it would have been working at cross purposes with the film itself, what he's saying. And so, yeah, just the it does. It's one of those films that does feel like it's paced just right. It never has that moment really where I feel like things of slow down or um or

it's or it's just kind of stuck. It just kind of it's always progressing and um, the urgency with the storm and everything, it's like a ratcheting up, but it's still languid. It manages like it's a bit of a magic track that this movie doesn't drag, but it's very languid, but it's still moving. It's it's like deliberate. It's kind of slow the way you know, um, I mean the

way the way you imagine something like freezing over gradually. Um. But at the same time, yes, it is, it's always moving, it's always changing and it almost takes you by surprise how far it goes, and and and just where where you find yourself by the end of it, you know,

compared to where you started out. Yeah yeah. And it's interesting too because each of these storylines, they're all sort of mirror one another, Like there's uh drinking and and you know, the desire for physical connection at the key party of the Manhattan Party, and then with ultimately you know, Sandy and wind end up in bed together. Well, everybody's

kind of quote unquote experimenting. You know, everybody's like taking this opportunity of being kind of like frozen in together to kind of um, you know, break beyond the normal boundaries of what would be acceptable behavior, let's say. Yeah. Yeah. And there's something too that about the weather in this

storm that like it's foreboding. And you even though there's nothing in the movie that really because it's not like a thriller or anything at all, but I remember even the first time I saw it, I felt like someone's gonna die. Yeah, you just had this something like some something Yeah, all this tension that we're feeling, something exploding is going to happen. And when you see Mikey the first time you see this movie and you see him on that frozen diving board, you know, everyone is thinking like,

oh shit, this is it. I cringe every time that scene comes up when he's jumping slippy almost slipped. What are you doing? You're gonna fucking die out there? Yeah, like out in the middle of the woods, Zack. And then when he makes it off, I remember thinking, oh he made it okay, yeah, a little like little do you know what's coming? Of course, like the worst thing of all um. But let's talk about the key party, yea, like one of the great man one of the great sequences. Yeah, yeah, good,

oh man, last There's so much going on. When I watched it last night, I was just appreciating the casting

of everybody at that party. Everybody is so memorable and distinctive and has their own little personality that they established, maybe with just a handful of lines or not even Yeah, because it's a tense, fraught situation um from Kevin Klein and how they play that at the beginning for it, with Ben and Elena um leaving going into the car and like they're out of there, and he's like, so, but but maybe we should just stay for a minute and that she's like, fuck, this throws her keys too,

I mean, Alison Janny, she aggressively throws the keys. Yeah, it's a great shot too. Yeah. And uh and right down to the guy. Um, who's the guy from the Mission and Pas movies. I know you're talking about the the guy that is there that he's a free agent. Yeah, he's on his own because his wife's oude of town and he ends up with the overweight lady and he's just kind of like, hey, let's do it. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's kind of great. Yeah, he's like, all right, that's

my number exactly. Oh man. The the creepiest guy is the guy who's um. He points out that the one woman has brought her son, and then he has that a sideline to Kevin Klein where he says, I wish some of the fathers have brought their daughters. Yeah, and he just kind of like, you know, SLINKs away. Yeah, and Kevin Klein is just like, I'm in the wrong place. Something I've gone off tracks and was like whoa. Yeah. And the guy, the the guy the sun Um, he's in one of my plays, one of my favorite roles

in one of my favorite movies. And flirting with disaster. Oh yeah, Ronnie, Okay, it's been it's been a long time since I've seen that. He plays Alan all the and Lily Tomlin's son, who is the Quail with I Love Man. That's a great movie. Oh man, that's one of my all time favorites. Um, Emily and I movie You Can't Catch the Whigs so good. Um. But yeah, he plays the sun who Sigourney Weaver clearly knows his key. You kind of get the sense when she pulls that

thing out this it's got that long. Yeah, it's like the whip. Yeah, the way she kind of like twirls her finger around, she makes like a show of the thing, like she knows exactly what she's doing. Yeah, and she just you know, gathers it in her hand. And he cuts to the to the kid and he's just like a rock and roll let's go, you know. But you know what's so interesting, I think, and so true to

this film is she sees this younger guy. She she isn't satisfied in her marriage, She isn't satisfied with Kevin Klein, so fair. Um, and she she goes after this young boy. And what happens at the end of this is she comes home and she gets in the fetal pause Asian on that water bed, and that shot is just so like again another great silent shot that just says so much. And I always wondered, like, what what happened between the

two of them. I think she had sex that wasn't sad, It's just just and she's kind of come home and she's like, this isn't working, you know, like I think nothing that I think is going to help is helping. And you didn't see that coming because throughout this whole film, she is the ice Queen, and she's untouchable and steely and and emotionless. And what you learned and that that one shot is that no, she too is in pain.

She's suffering too. She just has a you know, a stronger facade that she's putting forward to really discourage anybody from trying to get too close in there. Yeah, and by the way she dumps him at that party is sold well. It's like, you know, even even when she leaves him in the bedroom earlier on um and just you know, drives off in her car, Um I had somewhere to be. That's when he confronts her about that. Yeah,

but where then did you go? It's like, I think the reason that she just so quickly detaches from him is because he's starting to, you know, try to establish like more of a relationship. He's telling her about he's kind of like Quotitian nonsense, and um, and I think I think at that point she can't really see him as just like a fun sexual thing anymore. It's not that anymore. He's like a person, and he's kind of boring, and he's kind of reminds her her husband anyway, And

so it's it's just like flipping a switch. It's just like immediately she's done. And then he has a moment where he's he's sitting next to on the bed and he kind of kisses her neck and he's trying to you know, initiate, and and she's just like glancing off, completely unmoved, cold, you know, not feeling anything other than I wish this guy wasn't here. Probably yeah, and and this was a dumb idea and I'm over it, you know.

And then yeah, the way, um, well when when she dumps him so unceremoniously, and he's just like, how can you just like be this he didn't even finish the sentence. He might say, I can't you could just believe yeah that cold about her maybe just so dot dot dot ye, And she just kind of glances out the window and until he goes away, and then he starts drinking heavily, and it's that great moment when um, when she does

pick the key. It could have been this big thing where he's drunkenly makes a huge scene about like wait a minute, you can't bring your kid in here, and like this isn't how this works. But what do they do? He stands up and just goes no, no, and trips over the table, and everyone like it's just so brutal for Joan Allen, and especially because you know what's going on. Also, Jim Carver looking on, has this real look of like he's just put the math together in his head. Yeah,

because yeah, he might not have known before that. He's just like, oh, I see, you know, not only not only is my wife going off with this young kid, but there's this other grown up here who I'm friends with the family and neighbor. There's clearly a thing going on between them as well. So he's just kind of like he says, to Joan Allen later, he's like, it's been a pretty thoroughly discouraging evening, you know, discouraging or disheartening something. He is, Uh, he's so good. He really

liked Jamie Sheridan. Yeah, he's he's so um. The way he really shows up for that third act, you know, like you you because throughout the film he's been this kind of like yeah, yeah, he's he's so um, so distant, so removed from everything that that um, there's there's kind

of like a flatness to the character. And then you know when when they start to talk to each other and he's like, you know, I'm not that confident that my keys are still in that bowl, and it seems a bad idea to leave your keys in the bowl. Like that scene is great because that's when she she just breaks it down for him. She says that brutal line. She's like, my husband, you know, I've been married seventeen years. He's either passed out or he wishes he was, and

I have no intention of going in there and getting him. Uh. And she kind of, I mean, she says like, let's just spend some time together, and that's when he's like, fuck it. Yeah, like let's go for a drive, which is in this weather broad not a good idea, but that car love and call it love making. That that car sex scene is just like it's just one of the most brutally awkward, like film encounters you can see. Yeah, so uncomfortable, so so just um, he apologizes, Yeah, he's

immediately regressed. Was awful. Yeah, Well, and I think he means himself yeah, yeah, but I don't think he's talking about her. Yeah, I think he's just like this, this is awful. Well he's like, yeah, I mean, it's sorry. I think he's apologizing in a way. He's just like, sorry, that was so awful. And he I think he's still he still feels like kind of a protectiveness or something

towards her. Yeah, but but he also feels, you know, probably very ashamed of himself in that moment and just kind of um, yeah, it's just it's just unfortunate, the whole the whole thing. Yeah. But the implication is that they're going to go do it right right. Yeah. Well, she goes into she says like will you wait here for yeah, and she goes in that great scene in the bathroom Jerker. Yeah, like she kind of strokes his hair. It's like you stay here on the couch. Yeah, Um,

we'll talk in the morning. Yeah. You just you know, get some rest and yeah I can drive. Yeah he wants to drive and she's just like no, yeah, even in it's like you're too drunk to drive. Uh. And I got the picture that like she's going to do this right and go to a house, to to the Carverge house. Maybe so maybe maybe her own house yeah, uh and really have sex. Could be? Could be? I had not thought about it that way, but yeah, certainly

certainly could um. I to me, it kind of felt like they they sort of woke up from that, you know, that that that kind of idealized version they had in their minds and what that might be like. I mean,

maybe they just go have coffee and talk. That's That's more where where I kind of figure it went to is just that, um, yeah, they're they're back to kind of being neighbors and friendly and and they just to two adults that just want to spend a little time together, kind of past this crappy nie you know, until it's the morning, make a connection. Yeah, and they have that great low speed car wreck. Oh yeah, Yeah, I've been in those before where you're gonna like four miles an hour,

but you're slipping and you're like, I can't control. There's something to do right now. There's a there's a shot in UM a film that I think probably influenced this film. Uh. An Antonioni film called Leone the Night UM, which is part of his trilogy of kind of you know, alienation and isolation and so on, starts with Lavantara and ends with Lake Lie, and UM is in the middle of that. In that film, the third act is also like a just basically a party scene where all these people are

gathered together. UM. There's a husband and wife, their relationships not going well, and the husband is kind of like flirting and pursuing this younger woman and UM, so he eventually leaves. Uh. There's there's like a big rainstorm that happens. Everybody has a run inside, and the party kind of breaks up, and he gets in the car with this woman that he's kind of pursuing, and they have this long ride in this car. Um as like the rain kind of covers the windows and you can't really see

out the windows because it's raining so hard. UM. Just the way the way some of those shots are framed are are very very similar to the way it's shot in this film. Um, and I think it's you know, thematically, it makes sense that that that would be a reference point. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um. Then you know, then we are back with Mikey playing in this storm and it's a it's so tragic what happens because he is, uh, he's so innocent, and he's so so child like, he's really being a kid.

He's almost kind of regressed to like that that pure childhood's storm and he's he's sliding down the street. The way he's like jumping at that one point was really

really beautiful. And uh, I did not see what you know, I did have a sense of foreboding the first time I saw it, but I said that was going to happen, but it certainly did not see this uh yeah, this this electric Q Yeah, and even you know when it happens and it's you know, and he seems like he has time to move, yeah for a second, because the line is snaking around for a minute, it's flopping around before it lands on the on the rail. It might be like a little bit of slow motion or something.

Maybe but it's definitely like there's a moment where he goes like, oh no, and then yeah and uh. The way they play that too is just brutal. Yeah, because it's not a big thing. He doesn't even move and you're not even sure what happens at first, and then when he confessed, that shot of his body sliding down brutal like and and it's almost I think on the commentary, um, it's sort of like, I don't know, maybe not on

the commentary. I think it might have been an interview with Rick Moody where he talked about that scene, um, where he was basically saying like, I didn't even know if they're going to show it to that extent, that it's so brutal. There's there's there's no likee quote restraint in that moment. Yeah, but it's not graphic. It's graphic, but it's it's definitely looking right at the thing, you know,

which is a dead kid sliding on the ice. Yeah, because you could have you probably could have cut the scene right after he falls over something and you would have known that he was dead at that point or at least been fairly certain. But the way that it stays there yeah, I am too. I mean, it's a cut punch, but it's it is like a really really harsh, you know moment in the film that that is necessary for it to work. But um still, it's it's a little surprising that that the tone shifts so um strongly

in that direction. Well, yeah, because it's so it's already like there's so much turmoil and it's such a sad movie and then like at the end, they fucking killed this kid. It's just like, what is going on? Yeah,

you know, it's you know. The thing I've often kind of debated with myself about this movie is whether in some sense you could say it's kind of a fundamentally conservative movie in the way that it's suggesting that all this kind of permissiveness and in these kind of like leftover ideas from the sixties, you know, extending into the seventies, extending into parents being absent from their kids lives and

so on and so forth. If if Mikey is not in some ways sort of like the sacrificial lamb or like the the he's he's sort of like paying the price for all this kind of social permissiveness in a way that that um in the same way that in like Forrest Gump, Jenny is kind of like she receives like all the kind of um backlash. Let's say from the sixties that that ultimately she dies very famously been

you know, championed. Is very conservative. And I think the reason that this is not ultimately conservative film is that it has no illusions about the past being any better. Let's say it's it's really not saying, um, we went too far in the seventies. Let's turn the clock back twenty years to the fifties and all will be good again. It's kind of saying that these people have become disillusioned with that setting the fifties, you know, that kind of um much more you know, leave it to beaver kind

of style of life and um. And they're looking for something and they haven't found it yet. And the thing that they have found is kind of a false like ideal. It's kind of like, um, it's the wrong answer, you know, the way they're going about it. But they are trying to find this new thing. They just haven't found it yet and um, and their their generation kind of doesn't

find it necessarily. UM. But it's ultimately it is I think a more forward looking movie that is you know, it's just saying that the search for meaning is is difficult, you know. Um, but it's it's certainly not saying we should go back to this, that or the other thing. Yeah. I totally agree. Yeah, that's an interesting take and never

really thought about that. Um. So you know, Mikey's gone and that you know, the last like six minutes of this movie or just like if you thought you were depressed before, it's just like keeping it on top of your of your brain. At the end of this when he carries Mikey home and uh, you know, and and the and Mr Carver meets him outside. Well, first the you know, his his wife and daughter were the first

to see. Yeah, and it's sort of like immediately it's the three of them, and then Jim kind of you know, yeah, if you think that he like hit him with his car or something, right, because there are no words being spoken. He he says, Um. He finally says to his dad like I found him over on Silver Lane. Yeah, I think line. Yeah, that's that's about all he can say. And it was the way they shot at it was just so brutally real. Yeah. Um, because now it's morning,

everything is exposed. It's daylight. It's sort of like that feeling of they've all been up all night. Yeah, they've all been up all night, and like in the night, things drop off into shadow. It's hard to see, you know, it's hard to get an objective view of the whole situation. And then in the brutal, harsh reality of like daylight this morning probably still kind of drunk. Yeah, now suddenly everything is made clear and things that I mean, it's weird.

It's like it's like the nighttime the storm being frozen in all that kind of affects them psychologically and it it drives them into, you know, ways of behaving and crossing certain boundaries that they would never think to do, like in in just like a warm, normal day, right, But it's it's because they've they've been caught up in

this thing. And now it is like there's there's like another shot of like the tree line with like the ice kind of like maybe starting to melt a little bit and uh, and like the sun and the clouds and everything, and it's also very beautiful, but it's at the same time it's intensely sad, and it is this kind of realization of like, what have we done? What? You know, it's almost like the morning after the horror movie Night Ends. Yeah, you know, it has weirdly has

the same feeling. Um, and we we should mention to the uh the great part where Joan Allen walks in on Sandy and Wendy and Bed and she just she takes a beat and then she goes get dressed like it's not this big show like Ben would have done and did. Yeah, it's just this very quiet get dressed.

And immediately after that is when when they show up with Mikey and man the scene with with Mr Carver when he brings his son in the sun that he is just fairly estranged from even and then when Sandy walks in, it's just like brutal, man, God, it's hard. Well there there's that moment first where Kevin Klein um is almost like giving the body to Jim and um the way he he lifts the body up and and

Kevin Klein almost goes to help him. Yeah, and there's this look back and forth between them like you better not fucking touch my kid. Yeah him from Yeah, it's like I don't need your help. Yeah, well don't lay, don't lay a finger on him. Um, there's just like this moment, you know, where they're looking at each other and Um, he kind of like braces him into his

chest and brings him inside. And then I mean the saddest thing is that he he starts taking off the gloves and I'm doing and he's listening for a pulse, even though it's it's completely evident to everyone that he's gone, um, but he still has to do it like it's just a very human thing. And then as soon as you

realize that, he just sobbing, you know. And the way Sandy Windy comfort Sandy well because she she takes a step forward to him and he backs off like he's kind of scared at first, and then you know, she she just kind of goes in and they really do embrace, and you know, the camera kind of like spins around and you see like tears streaming down his face, which is interesting because you haven't really seen that kind of overt emotion from him. Kids. He's sort of the weird kid.

He's he's like blowing things up and shoots the g I Joe at her and you're kind of wondering, like, hiss his kid like on the road to like a school shooter or something. I mean, before that, you know, we he has that, he has that moment where he says, Um, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna put a firecracker on a plane and fly it into miss and so is classic. Um, I don't think he is. So. I think he's just

just a little weird, weird kid trying to figure it out. Yeah, but um, so you even you even't see him kind of getting broken down by this. Who wouldn't And then yeah, and then you know, cutting to Sigourney Weaver upstairs as she wakes up. Yeah, and you never even she never even makes it downstairs as far as what we see,

you don't need to see that. Yeah, but I get a sense from her even when her eyes open and she's just hearing her husband crying, I think she probably intu it's basically what has happened anyway, Well, you know, something has happened that that one of the kids is dead or or something really really bad you know has has happened. Yeah, and it's interesting they don't show her seeing that because she has not shown much love to

either of her boys in the movie. Um, and I think it might have read a little false if she came downstairs and broke down sobbing and he's just been redundant, you know, yeah, well that's true for sure. Um and then you know the end, one of my favorite favorite endings and one of my favorite shots in the movie is uh and and certainly Paul knows something is up, like his whole family doesn't show up, that they come

up the morning after he goes into Manhattan. He takes he takes that beat where he's smiling, he's glad to see them, but he's also like, why are you? Why are you here? And they have that great shot man of the three of them standing there and the train station just solemn, and the score kind of building, And yeah, it always affects me because it's it's that moment where you realize this family is still intact, you know, sort

of yeah, sort of studo, but they're all safe. Yeah, and yeah, you feel like this might be the moment where they all kind of wake up and and things are gonna be different from now on. But it's just that sense that is it hopeful m It's it's ambiguous, I think, yeah, but um, but yeah, just just that that that that thought that that that occurs to me every time I see it. Of just you know, ultimately he has his family still, um at least they're they're around so that they can mend things, so they can

fix things. The Carvers don't have that luxury anymore. You know, there's things that I think everyone had taken each other for granted exactly. It's just that since that, Wow, we are actually a family, We're not just these alienated individuals that we can actually still you know, love each other and help each other, connect with each other. And maybe maybe if there's like a silver lining in any of this, it is that they have that epiphany where they're like,

it's not too late, we can still do something. It's but they don't say it. They don't say anything. Well, like the the the whole last like you know, ten fifteen minutes are practically word free. Yeah, especially just that car scene like that, It certainly would have changed. That gets me. Every time you could have had dialogue there, you could have had him say what happened, Like Paul doesn't even say what's going on. It's just the perfect

use of no diet. Kevin Klein starts crying and Joan Allen just says Jim, like, you know, that's that's the only thing she says, and and then the rest of it is just um bouncing around, you know, everybody, everybody looking at everyone else. Um, you know. He turns back around to his son like he's maybe going to break the news. You can't even do it, and he turns back around to the stream when he starts crying, you know, to me a wire. At this point, it has got

to be like something horrible has happened. We're all here, but but nevertheless, something really terrible must have happened. And I love that the last shot of the movie, it ends on Toby McGuire's face just like not quite grasping yet. He doesn't know, he doesn't know what what what went down, but it's it's this uneasy sense of like something really heavy has happened and I don't know yet what it is.

And then and then you kind of realize, because he's also the voice of the film, this is sort of um, you know, it's it's it's another whatever you wanna call it. It's it's an other like key moment in his life that's going to inform the rest of it, and that has informed the film we've just seen, you know, his fantastic He's he's looked back on. Yeah, he's he's looking

back on this really important moment in his life. Yeah. Yeah, And and Kevin Klein, it's a lovely thing in a movie where like he's he's not crying for Mikey no, you know, yeah, that's part of it probably, Yeah, but like he's weeping for his life and what he's done and just that he's he's taken it so um like casually and thoughtlessly, you know, and it's really at least for the moment, it's it's shaken him out of that. But but whether you know, whether things what do you

think happens. Where's his family in six months? Yeah, it's really tough to say. Summertime, they could they could, um, they could kind of just like go back, you know, fall back asleep. I mean that's what I think. Paul's got a couple more years left to high school, but he's already away when he's going to be gone, and you know, similar time frame if if if she's going to like a boarding school type thing as well. So and then you know, maybe especially once the kids around

the house, maybe they do get divorced or something. You know, so maybe maybe this is like, you know, one last hurrah of like hey, we're a family. But ultimately, you know, it's it's too late, it's I don't know. I do probably lean in that direction as well, rather than not helpful. Everybody lived happily ever after and and kind of like nothing nothing really says that they're going to turn it all around. Uh man, what a great movie, New Canaan Connectic. Yeah, yeah,

that I the setting it a New Canean. Also interesting to me that that is where Rick Moody grew up, and and the fact that they were shooting the movie in that town and people from that town of course had read the book and we're not happy with the book because it doesn't exactly reflect positively on didn't really show new canon and shows a couple of houses in the woods. No, but just like the kind of people who live there, let's say, are the kind of lives

they lead. They they felt maybe like a little bit you know, like slandered by that. Um and so but the New Canaan um Canaan being like a biblical idea um and uh yeah, just the like the in the Bible, there's like the whole story about like the false idol, the Canaanites and you know, Moses going up on the mountain coming down with the tablet and everything. Um, I always wondered. I mean, I guess it's not a it's not a conscious choice, because that is literally where he's from.

But it did kind of make me wonder at a certain point, is he saying that, um, everybody in this town is kind of worshiping a certain false idol, Like they're they're, they're, they're they're kind of yeah, yeah, um they're they're, they're sort of um, they're they're, they're they're receiving these second hand um ideas from the sixties that have like filtered out finally into the suburbs, you know, and so they're all kind of playing catch up with

what was happening in more like urban centers let's say, you know, five or ten years earlier. But the whole idea of like free love and and kind of um, these these kind of freewheeling sexual you know things, and um, yeah, it's it's just interesting. Um the I don't know, I don't know if that's if that's what the film is driving out, but certainly the the idea of like the ice storm itself being like, uh, kind of like this active nature act of God, whatever you wanna call it.

There's there's a sense again in in these films we were mentioning at the beginning, like shortcuts like Magnolia, that there is this kind of omniscient thing that is looking on and that is in a way punishing these characters, but at the same time as also trying to um wake them up out of slumber, you know, and unite people again. Yeah, boy, this is one of my favorite movies. Casey same, absolutely talk about it. Yeah. So one last thing, um, just you know, more more thematic stuff that's kind of

buried in the film. Um. When Sigourney Weaver is in bed earlier on, she's on the waterbed, she's reading her husband's come home. She's reading a book by Philip Roth. And then if you look on their their bookshelf by the bed, there's also like John Updyke and you know again the family being named the Carver's. This film is kind of it belongs to like that tradition of sixties disillusionment with say the American Dream, you know, the picket fence and the and the two kids and the dog

and all that go. Yeah, yeah, and so it it's tapping into that, um. And it's interesting that it that it's so deliberately references that in the context of the film. Um, but it's sort of tucked away at least. Yeah, it's it's tucked away. Um, but it's just it's um in in a way. I also think about, you know, a couple of years later, like American Beauty for instance, that that similar kind of feeling of from again suburban disenchantment and um, you know, set set in a contemporary you

know setting, but very much the same idea. Um that you know that there's there's beauty in the world. You know. We could say the same for the Ice Storm, that it's very beautiful, but at the same time it's also there's a there's a sadness there. Yeah, we'll finish on this. So do you like Radiohead? Sure? Love Radiohead? Do you like the album In Rainbows? I Love in Rainbows? I love them all? Do you like the song House of Cards them All? So? All right? The lyrics to House

of Cards are are more or less inspired by this film. Um. Probably the the most direct gesture towards it the infrastructure will collapse from voltage spikes, Throw your keys in the bowl, kiss your husband good night, Um, forget about your house with cards and I'll do mine. Forget a out your house with cards and I'll do mine. Fall off the table, get swept under, denial, denial. There you go? All right?

Do you think that's what they were thinking? Oh yeah, because the even the idea of the key party, I kind of assumed it was a thing that really happened in the seventies. But it's I feel like our our our cultural awareness of it is almost like it's more due to this film. Maybe I'm wrong, but um, I had the understanding anyway that that it's almost like a you know, it's the kind of thing people talked about

going on. There may not be so many like firsthand accounts of it, but I think certainly Radiohead here um is thinking like explicitly of this film. When they say fall off the table, get swept under, it's like Benjamin Hood standing up banging his knee on the table. Um, three keys in the bull, kisse your husband a night. You know, the infrastructure will collapse, the voltage bike. All that stuff, I think is is pretty pretty consciously evoking

this film. Have to do a little digging on that, all right, man, Well that was great, and uh, we'll figure out what we're gonna do next time. Yeah. This has been um kind of two pseudo mainstream movies in a row, if you want to call it that. So for the next one, we'll try to try to find something really far out, all right, that sounds good? Yeah, all right, thanks man, thank you. Movie Crush is produced, edited, and engineered by Ramsey Hunt here in our home studio

at pont City Market, Atlanta, Georgia. For I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.