Casey on Margaret

It will be a short one because they're only three movies. He's going to make more movies. Uh, Casey. We are continuing on with a movie called Margaret that I don't I think I said this last time. I have no idea how this movie got by me. I hadn't. I didn't even know it existed. So maybe it was because of all the history of the lawsuits and it not getting like a decent release in marketing. But I didn't

even know it was out there. Yeah, it had a super quiet release and a super kind of protracted um journey, you know, from from being shot in like two thousand five to coming out all the way in two thousand eleven and a very very limited almost sort of like contractual obligation vanity release, you know, like New York and l A, only for a couple of weeks. And then you know, and that was that was not even Laurigan's

preferred cut. It was kind of the shorter version. So, um, we're very very lucky that we even got the DVD version of the extended cut, I think, Yeah, so let's go over that and level set real quick. Um, there were this movie, the Kenneth Launergan Cut as uh, I guess we can just call it is three hours in six minutes of of heavy drama. It's unusual for a movie like this to be this long. Um, and how

long was it theatrical? So even even the theatrical was pretty long, it was still two and a half hours. So we're only talking about a difference of like thirty six minutes, which is a lot, but you know, not as much as you might have thought. Yeah, and I think I saw online somewhere where Martin Scorse's the end on a is it schoonmaker or Schumacher? I hear it both ways. I usually say she schoonmaker, schoonmaker maker. I

mean I took Germans. So I want to say schoon I think it's I think, but I'm trying to remember how she says it. I think she says schoonmaker, but I could be wrong. Well, legendary editor, you know, one of the all time grades. And I saw that they helped him get it down to that theatrical cut. Is that what you saw to it? I don't think it

was the theatrical cut. What happened was there was a producer on the film who was I think very enthusiastic early on, but then began to kind of insert himself more and more into the kind of editing process and being in the editing room, and he was kind of driving long Agan crazy with notes and and just kind of interfering with the process and uh, you know, giving his two cents, where lar Agan thought, this is not really your place, and so that that relationship became more

and more strained. Um and eventually Scorsese, who I think was already maybe a producer on the film, he had some level of involvement, as he did also with You Can count On Me, I think, just as an executive producer on that one. But which is champion of the film. Yeah, so so Scorsese had already seen lan Agans kind of like at that time favored version of the film, which was probably in the three hourish range and um and

and said it was a masterpiece. And but lannergan while he final cut in his contract, he did not have the right to have it be longer than I think about two two and a half hours. So even though he had full creative control, he was still obligated to get it down to that length. And he just couldn't do it, or he felt like he couldn't do it anyway. And so Scorsese, well, you know, Scorsey's well, okay, let

me let me get involved here. Let me let me see if I can kind of whittle some of this down a little bit and um, and we can make

something that everybody's happy with. And you know, Scorsese did his cut with Thelma and Lauragan liked it and everything, but then the producer basically just killed it like out of spite at that point and and spiked it and just said, no, we're going to release this other version that basically nobody really wants, you know, um, just to kind of stick it to the mark, to at to Launagan and um, yes, stick it to the great artists. Yeah. And at some point in there also, Um, Dylan Tishner

got involved. He's Paul Thomas Anderson's editor. I think he was hired maybe by the producer to kind of do his own cut without Lauren again kind of having any say in it. And that version never still the light of day either. So Um, the version that did come out in theaters, the two and a half hour one, Lanigan did have some involvement with, but it was basically like he did it under duress and he doesn't really stand by it necessarily. Right. Well, so here's what I

have to say about the length. Um, it is a a movie that is richly rewarding at this length. I could also see, and this is probably a credit to just the great acting and the great directing and the fact that it's a great movie. I could also see a two hour and twenty minute version being great. And dude, I could see a our and forty five minute version

of this movie being great. I agree. Um, the way he hasn't laid out there's um, there's so much in it, Like the first hour in fifteen minutes is almost preamble too.

I guess what quote un what the real story is, which is this young woman who uh and if you you know, there's obviously gonna be spoiled, um, if you're listening and haven't seen it, But this young woman who has a part in a tragic accident where in a Manhattan City bus runs over Alison Janny and kills her and she dies and uh and Anti Paquin's and Lisa's arms and she is partially to blame because she was distracted the bus driver. So that is sort of the

central story. But it's a movie about so much more than that. I mean, it's you could have made a movie about a girl losing your virginity. They make Yeah, they make movies about girls who get pregnant by their teachers and have fortunes, and all these things happen in this movie, these big, big things. It's crazy. It's it's the full kitchen sink, right. It's like, um, it's it's

the opposite of minimalism. It's like maximalism. It's sort of like, even even though he has this story that could be kind of the central focus of the film, and it could almost be like a legal procedural kind of thing, like are we gonna get this guy. Are we gonna win the settlement all that? Yeah? Yeah, and um but

you know, I feel like to do that. Like, there are many films within this film, and I think that is entirely the point that Lanagan is making is that basically, you know, um, so there's a moment where Emily, who is Monica the deceased woman, her friend, where she confronts Lisa and uh and basically says like this, this is not your life, this is not your story. You're making it about you because you're young and your naive and

you're inexperienced. But this was my friend that I've known since I was nineteen years old, you know, all my life. I've known this person. She meant so much to me. And for you to kind of come in at the eleventh hour and make it all about you essentially, is this kind of um monstrous thing to do in a way.

And she's Lisa is so like taken back by this, like I'm just trying to help, you know, but she she doesn't have that broader awareness and what the film as a whole, like, as a film, what it's doing is basically saying that, you know, we all think that we're the star of our own movie, and we don't necessarily expand that to realize that we're just like a background player and and most people's lives and um, and also that that it's part of just being human that

we kind of create these narratives. We create these stories to kind of contain the overwhelming amount of things in the world, you know, just the brute reality of like a city like New York, where there's millions and millions

and millions of stories. Everybody has their own thing and it's all colliding and it's all overlapping at the same time, and so in a way that it even goes against the idea of like narrative film, because narrative film, the idea is that like you you winnow that down, you use zero in on just a handful of characters, and you kind of tell that one story. But he's trying to tell or at least suggest that on the periphery, there's like a million other stories, and this movie could

be about any one of them. For the point that it's kind of making. In a way, it just happens that they zero went on Lisa, But the broader kind of philosophical point that he's making you know you could you could make a story about any of these people and and have it kind of be um similarly compelling to think. Yeah, And he does that in some very interesting ways. UM. One of the ways he does it is and there are a couple of scenes where that stand out to me where he allows the audio track

almost in an altmanesque way, from other conversations to bleed in. UM. Notably the scene where they're in the dinner together, she and her kind of best friend who loves her, and she very cruelly sort of and I don't think intentionally toys with She's just a very confused young adolescent woman, a girl, and U as their zoom, you know, zooming

in very slowly on their dinner table. You're really listening to a conversation with these two elderly women next to them, but also a little bit of this other table bleeds in and then they finally get to their conversation. So he does it there, and then he does it in that great shot outside the apartment building when he's when he's panning from outside the tracking shot by the different windows and you hear the different conversations at the different

windows of the different apartments and so you finally land on. Um, I keep wanting to color stuki because I was a true blood person. Uh. Lisa and her mom uh sort of just picks it up in mid conversation, and and that stuff really makes it clear that this is a movie about this girl and her entire her full life, but also a movie about New York. Yes, oh absolutely, it's you know, it's a cliche to say like the city is another character, but it is really true in

this case. Um, and you know they're there are definitely those those two scenes that where it jumps out the most. But anytime there's like an establishing shot or an exterior there's always like audio bleeding over from people's conversations on the street, usually people we don't even see, but just to kind of, um, yeah, convey the idea, like reinforce the idea that life is always going on beyond these stories.

And and even though this might be considered like high drama, to watch this like realized that the world is just going indifferently at its own pace all around it, and this thing that kind of stops the world for Lisa. The rest of the world just keeps moving. Yeah, did you happen to read I'm sure you probably did the

great Atlantic article an interview with Lonergan. Yes, yeah, yeah, really great read um, And he pointed out a couple of things which really kind of drive that home too, was um, he was always fascinated with the idea of what else is going on aside from the central plot of a movie in these people's lives, and why have we never seen that? And I think the reason why is is it's not for everyone. It's this is a borderline experimental film in a lot of ways. Because of that,

it really is. Yeah, yeah, it's in the empty narrative in a way, it really is. And the other thing too that he did, which was very sneaky sort of camera trick, was he said he wanted to have a lot of shots where Lisa wasn't even the focus of the shot, even though she was in the shot, and he said, there are plenty where she is, but he said he he tried to have a lot of shots of the city where she just sort of passes through, and it gives it's almost like a documentary at times,

oh for sure. And you can tell, like a lot of those street shots they're just on a long lens, like several blocks away. They're not blocking off the count you know, the streets for filming or anything. I think those are real New Yorkers and a lot of those shots, um, and it doesn't have like a documentary film where um, yeah, you're Lisa is allowed to just get lost among like the anonymous crowd, you know, and the camera starts to

pick up these other faces. And because of the way the movie has been working, it kind of invites you to think, like, I wonder what that person's story is. I wonder what their day is, Like, I wonder what

they're worried about her, thinking about her going through you know. Yeah, there's just the real the reality and the realness of that long again, I mean he does it, and in all of those films, Um, it's just astounding, Like the that scene early on where she's on the sidewalk and her boyfriend or her friend that I can't remember Tyn twelve who yeah he's great, Yeah, where he asked her

out on a date. It is so like gut wrenching because we've all been there as adolescence to to try and figure out that roadmap in front of you that you've never navigated before of asking a girl out on a date, and especially if it's someone that's your friend that you want to take it to that next relationship level in they just play it so real. It's really

really great. Yeah, that that's an incredibly relatable part of the story For me, absolutely, I had that experience numerous times where it was like it was always like the friend that you know, the feelings developed for over time more than like you know, just approaching someone out of the blue and asking them out. That wasn't really a thing,

so um yeah. And then and then the strain that would put on those relationships, you know, whatever the outcome was, Um, there's always like some awkwardness involved if it doesn't if it's not returned, you know, if it's not mutual. So um yeah, Yeah, that's that's a very very relatable part of the movie. Even you know, I love that the movie just gives you these like a little small moments that give you a window into these other lives, even

though their periphery characters. But there's like the scene where she's already called up Karen Culkin about about losing her virginity. Then her friend calls her up and it there's even a shot of him like in his bed with like the pavement and interpoll posters on the wall, and it's like, you know, it's a Friday night probably, and like he's in bed and he's thinking like should I call her? Should I not call her? You know, I wonder what she's up to. That's all going through his head. He's

just like fixated on this girl and um. And then he calls her up and he's trying to make conversation and it's it's not leading anywhere, and she finally just says, I'm sorry, you know, I don't really feel like talking right now. He's like, oh, okay, okay, and then he just you know, hangs out the phone like starts crying immediately.

It's very very um, you know, we we we we don't see him that much through the film, but I love that we have that kind of a little little private moment just to kind of, I don't know, give us, give us some a little bit of richness and detail to these kind of secondary characters. Yeah, and that's after the party where she makes out with Karen Culkin and then immediately drunkenly in the hallway tells her friend that she loves him really and him Yeah, and this poor Darren,

he's just like on this roller coaster of young emotion. Man, I felt so bad for him. And she's not she's not being cruel. I don't think. I think she's just a confused kid. Yeah, I think I think the idea is that, like Lisa is, she's more powerful or she has more of an effect on people than she even realized this. Right, she hasn't She hasn't yet learned that necessarily that what seems to her like a small thing

might be a big thing to somebody else. And she so she doesn't have that that that like empathetic, um more developed adult perspective on the world, because she's still like an adolescent. And this is they're all narcissists. Yeah, then this is this this movie is like her journey to some broader awareness. But even at the end of the film, like she's still got a lot of um territory to cover before she really gets there. But she does expand that that awareness in some ways, in other

ways she still has a lot more to learn. Yeah, since you brought up Karen Culkin, uh I adore Kieren Culkin. I'm a huge, huge fan of his. Uh Igby goes down as one of my all time favorite movies. And he just has a a fucking coolness about him that like, I don't I could never achieve even as a kid, effortless and the and this character is kind of and I thought the the virginity losing scene was he he was he was being a good guy, you know, he was.

He was trying to be very caring and he was charged with a very big important thing in her life. He agreed to do it, and he was being very caring and very loving. I think I kept waiting for that seemed to go bad, I mean, and it went bad, and that he you know, didn't wear a condom, but I was waiting forward to go bad with him being too aggressive or being a jerk, and the whole time he was really kind of being a good guy and

trying to guide her through this thing. I felt like, I think the movie kind of sets up the expectation that he's going to be more a jerk about it than he than he is, and he actually ends up to be a pretty decent person and and to not have any kind of particularly impure intentions about the thing, you know, and and yeah, it kind of she she

picks him, you know. She she jokes about this with him, like, um, or he asked her to what do I owe this honor that you're you know, giving me, And she's like, Oh, it's because of my really profound, deep feelings for you sarcastically, So she's just basically saying, you seem cool, and I want to get it over with and you know, neither one of us is going to like mistake this for something more than what it is, so, um, this seems like an ideal thing because I trust you and we

already know each other a little bit, so let's just do this. But by the end of it, he kind of says, or she says to him, um, something about you know, you must not feel anything for me, and he's like, well, I think I've just proved that I

at least have some level of feelings for you, you know. Yeah, yeah, I love that scene later on too, and the acting class when the play isn't going well and they're all getting getting real and the teacher it's such a very drama class thing to do, basically sits down and has this sort of group therapy where they all admit these things to one another and then hug it out one at a time, and they get over to his character.

I mean it's basically Igby. I'm just gonna call m Maigby and and he's like, and I play in the band and uh on these songs for this play and I just kind of want to come here and do that and go smoke a joint on the roof. And I don't want to hug anyone. And but he's not being an asshole, he say, he's still so affable. And the teacher was like, well, you want to hug me and he's like yeah, yeah, yeah, such a great moment,

so so real. Yeah, he's he's yeah, I mean he he only has like a handful of scenes, but he does leave a big impression in this film. And um, it's funny, like his his way, you know. Lisa even brings attention to it where she says, like, why is it that everything you sound, everything you say sounds funny? You know, It's just a gift I have or something. And even when he says that, it's like fun and

I've known people like that. They just have that that kind of weird charisma, effortless, you know, and um, yeah, growing up especially it was always frustrating to like see other kids who had that kind of thing, just that ease with like social situations or charming people or whatever. So it just comes so understood. Yeah yeah, Um, well, let's jump back to the beginning and in the big scene, you know where I didn't know anything about this movie.

I intentionally kind of went in not wanting to know, and so that bus accident really shook me to the core. And it's one of the most brutal, one of the most brutal death scenes I've ever seen in a movie.

I think it really is. I can't even think of a more impactful, realistic upsetting just completely out of the blue, if you don't know it's coming, um scene in a film like and I'm Glad you're it's it's really cool that, um that you didn't know that, because if you if you read even like kind of the log line, the one liner description for this movie, a lot of times

it's like after a traumatic bus crash blah blah blah. Um. So yeah, that's really cool that you got to see it cold and and just be completely taken by surprise by that, even though it is like super upset and the way the whole thing on fold. I mean it feels like that's exactly how it would go in reality. Yeah, it seems very real. Alison Janny. I think it was brilliant to cast her because she's someone like if you would have cast an unknown, it would have been tough.

But I think when you cast in Alison Janny just for that one party, it's someone that everyone loves, I think, yeah, and so it makes it really extra hard to see her slowly and brutally go into the light right in front of your face. It was It's one of the toughest movie scenes I've ever sat through. Man, it was really really hard to watch. And it's really gnarly to the way the blood, like they're not shy about like the blood sprang out, and you know, it's really gory.

I mean it's like a war movie, you know, that that level of like uh, And they're talking about the tournique and everything, and she's starting to you know, when when we kind of realized that we don't know the full reality of this until later on where she's asking for her daughter. Her daughter also happens to be named Lisa. Lisa gets confused by this. She's like, what are you talking about me. She's like, no, I'm talking about my

daughter Lisa. And then later, you know, later on in the film, uh, we learned that, you know, her daughter Lisa died at twelve and hasn't been around for a long time. That makes it even more kind of upsetting to think about that in the last few minutes of her life, like she was confused, she didn't realize that

her daughter was really gone. It's just yeah, it's it's really um, really sad and um yeah, just the I I don't know, I mean that one one interesting thing about this film is the particularly time in which it's situated, where it's like four years after nine eleven, um, but it's still very much on everybody's mind. It comes up

in conversation, you know. Um, I don't think anybody ever like literally says the word nine eleven, but they say things like they blew up our city or they killed three thousand people, things like that, And in a way, Uh, there's something about I don't know, something about the way this bus crash happens. It brings up to mind just in the sense that it's this insanely traumatic thing that

just comes out of the blue. On like a nice, pleasant New York day, you know, and then suddenly like there's this person bleeding and dying in front of you, and people are standing around and they're kind of helpless to do anything, and um, I don't know. It's kind of like a much smaller version of of kind of that collective trauma that everybody in that city experience. So I mean everybody in the country experienced. Yeah, I think said that they were actually shooting during happened. No, there's

there's no way, um no, because they didn't. I don't think they started shooting until like two thousan five. But I think I think he did have He's had this script for a long time. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I

think that's what it is. Like he'd been up working on the script for a long time and then that happened and he was like, Okay, well now this has to be like the layer in the film, and um, you know, I think I think this is like in the in the canon of great post nine eleven movies, Um, that that sort of recreate and and and and truly capture what that moment felt like in the United States.

And it's it's kind of interesting because we're in such a different moment now that there's almost I think a kind of collective amnesia a lot of us have when it comes to that period, um, and just remembering what it was like and the kind of things that that

people were really concerned with at that time. Um, I would I would say, you know, along with like Spike Lee's twenty, this is like one of the great movies to to respond to that whole um period, particularly through the lens of like New York City, Yeah, and through the lens in this case of the kids in high school there. You know, they go to this sort of hippie dippie liberal, expensive private school which she's partially on scholarship for. Um, although you know she's certainly not hurting.

Her mom's a Broadway uh not star, but pretty big actor. Her dad will get her dad right. The commercial director in Out in l A on the Beach, Um Keneth are gonna so great as an actor. I love it.

But um, the way they handle it in this movie is through the eyes of these high school it's and notably in the school and they have these very open, hippie dippy sort of chat remit sessions where um, one of the threads is this Syrian student and just really going at it with with the other kids, like screaming

at each other and um anna pack when man. She has so many great scenes scenes where she's just full of rage, not only there, but with the scene with um I think Emily later Monica's friend scenes with her mom Keneth Low against wife. I mean, she's doing like Academy Award winning level acting in this movie. I think, oh, absolutely, yeah. I mean it's it's it's a shame that, um nobody really got recognized for this movie. You know, it's crazy. Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, but yeah, I love I love

all the school scenes, the kind of classroom debates. You know, I went to I went to a public school, um and so, but I actually did my senior year, I had a class that was kind of like the classes that she's in all the time. UM. It was called like political philosophy, I want to say, or maybe political actually, I think it was called political theory because they didn't want to put the name philosophy in the title of

the class. I was taught by this guy who was basically retired and he just taught this one class just for fun basically, and he was like a kind of like a former sixties radical and um, you know we were reading like Marx and Nietzsche and um, all kinds of stuff that that would not really be part of

the public school curriculum, let's say. And um, and we we did have some really heated debates in class, because I mean, um, my senior year was two thousand one going into two thousand two, So nine eleven happened when I was a senior in high school. And um, and that was when that class was going on. So we had debates in that class about that, you know, about going into Aghanistan, and um, he you know, the cool thing about him was that he, like I said, he

was retired. He was not doing it for the money. He did not care if he got fired or if he got complaints sort ever. So it was it was like, you know, it's basically like a college class, but in

a high school format. And um, this movie really captures very well, like I don't know, it's it it reminds me of just that that period in your life where you're you're beginning, you're you're a teenager, you're starting to get introduced to all these ideas that are probably unfamiliar to you and you're kind of expanding your mind a little bit and you're you're starting to consider other perspectives and um, and just the way different different people react

to it. Some people get really offended. Some people are kind of, if anything, maybe too willing to kind of take that stuff on, um without without weighing it and really considering it. Um, it's just it's just a really interesting I don't I can't think of any other film.

I mean, there's been plenty of films made like in schools, but it rarely have they focused so much in on the classroom discussions and how combative that can be, and the dynamics that exists between the students both inside the classroom and outside the classroom, and how those play off each other. Just really really interesting. Yeah. And I mean and ostensibly this is all stuff that could have hit

the cutting room floor. Um. I mean, this is the stuff to me that makes the movie not a movie about a girl who witnessed an accident and follows up on it, but a movie about a girl's life at that age and her, like I said earlier, her whole life and this one thing happens in it. But um,

it's just a much more rich film. I think by leaving all this stuff in and all these other side relationships, I mean, it's a movie where you have a very full subplot that could have left concerning her mother and her new boyfriend and John Ren who was fantastic in this and I think having those two, you know, this is her mom who's also struggling in her relationships and in her place in the world, and and whether or not she's received well in this play and her narcissism,

and it's there they kind of mirror each other. It's really really good stuff. Yeah. The um I love that because how many movies have we seen where the mother character is just like an auxiliary thing to kind of just serve the plot, drive the story forward whatever, you know, either an obstacle or or a help when she's needed, but not to be this fully rounded three D character.

And um yeah, I love this idea that, Like, I mean, the thing that that we see over and over and over again in this film is how something very dramatic can be happening, but there's this other thing also happening right at the same time that kind of overlaps it,

and people's attention is like pulled in different directions. So she's very worried about this new play that she has opening, but at the same time, her daughter has just had this massive traumatic thing, and even the day that it happens, Um, she has like a performance or a rehearsal or something that night, and she kind of asked her daughter, like, do you want me to stay home? I can I can just tell them I'm not coming in tonight, and she says, no, no, no, just it's fine. Just go, Um,

I'm gonna go to the the movies. You know, I don't really want to just sit around here and think about it either, So just go and and it'll be fine. Like she's kind of Lisa at that point, is is trying to just kind of like speed past the thing and and and and get beyond it, even though it's it's weighing on her immediately and she can't really even sit through the movie and you know, obviously it's it's it's there's there's no way that she can just kind

of move beyond it. But yeah, the way the mother has to weigh all that stuff together, the way Um she's now kind of like dating for what seems like the first time and in many many years, because she's been busy raising her kids and working as single mom in New York City. Um. So yeah, I love that she has this this other life and that it's it's not um, it's not treated it's just like an occasional thing.

I mean, it is fully integrated into the story of the movie, even though you could argue, if this is really Leasa story, some of that stuff doesn't need to be there. But then if it wasn't there, it wouldn't be this movie. It wouldn't be Margaret, it wouldn't be saying what really Long Again is trying to say with his film about, you know, the many different stories in

everyone's life and how those all intersect. Yeah, because so often, like you said, you see the mom character just reacting and either helping or not helping, but you don't know why they might react or help or not help. In this movie, she's so full and um, I mean, you could have made an entire movie about this woman who's a Broadway actor that's getting on up a little bit

in years and a single mom. It could have been totally from her point of view and the dating this new man who who she's it's a good guy, but she's having such a hard time really connect acting with There's that great scene where you know, she talks about not really even knowing him, and he's kind of like, can we just not do those things? And like here,

let's just look at a photo album with my family. Yeah, he has a very different idea of what a relationship is and um, and she is a woman who I feel like it's struggling whether or not, like is that enough because he's a handsome man, he's French, and he's uh, has money and um, all these things that would make him a good catch quote unquote, but uh, but she's not satisfied. Now He's he's kind of boring. You know,

he's kind of boring. It's sort of it's sort of the parallel character and you can count on me the boyfriend in that film too, it's the same kind of thing where it's like the guy reliable. You know, he's going to provide for the family. He's he's very family oriented. He's he's not going to be a scumbag or anything like, he's gonna be faithful all that stuff. But at the

same time, he's just not particularly compelling or exciting. He's just kind of a safe you know, responsible pick but not like you know, the kind of movie idea of like a great romance or something. Yeah, and then he spoils it all with the what is it, what is it called the the Israel Palestine the Jewish reaction or yeah, yeah, yeah, he says that is the Jewish reaction, that that she kind of, um just just shuts the conversation down and

walks away. And then he says, he says later on, like if I had just said the Israeli reaction instead the Jewish, it wouldn't be this problem. But yeah, the films really that's a very very interesting um kind of through line in the film because there's a lot of talk about um, Afghanistan, Iraq, and then Israel Palestine comes

up in some of the classroom discussions as well. UM and kind of just you know, America's relationship to the Middle East and um, Islam, Judaism and so on, UM, and just how how how incredibly um, I don't know, treacherous that that territory can can be in a in

a conversation like that. And it's Lisa that that ends up throwing that bomb into that conversation, you know, because she's just come from the class room discussion and now she's like a dinner with the adults and she's like, oh, here's what we had a conversation about in class today.

And then it just immediately like, you know, detonates in that conversation, and um, who knows what would have happened, you know, Um, had had she not brought it up, had that not come up, like he wouldn't have said the thing, her mom wouldn't have broke up with him, and he doesn't have the heart attack, then who knows, you know. It's just like it's it's hard to say

what the what the different story might have been. Yeah, he dies, they go to the funeral, and I don't know if you've got the sense, but I feel like every sort of attractive woman they showed felt like an ex girlfriend. Yeah, well, like blond hair and a lot of the I think so, I think. I think it's it's very a subtle. I didn't pick up on it for a long time. In fact, I think it was somebody's review pointed that out, and then when I watched his most recent time, I was like, oh, yeah, I

do kind of see that. That's like insanely subtle stuff because it's not marked on at all, but it is kind of the funny thing where, like, I mean, it's true, it's like if if if if somebody has a type and they actually keep in touch with their exes and so on, then if they did have a funeral, like there might be that moment where everyone kind of looks around and realizes, oh, we all kind of yeah, we all kind of fit the bill, you know. It's it's kind of a weird thing. Yeah. Uh So, let's talk

a little bit about the Kenneth Against character. The father, the TV commercial director who was out on the West coast on that in that sweet Pad on the beach. The only thing we see of their relationship I think is is it three or four phone calls something like that? Yeah?

I think it is for maybe for um. And he's such a he's such a good actor, you know, doing what he does, which, uh, in this case, sort of this kind of schlubby what was me narcissist father who Yeah, you know, he loves his daughter, but he's also kind of like he's not really listening to her that much.

I don't feel like, well, it's like he has I mean, everybody in the movie has like their story that they think they're in, that they think their life is, and the meaning that they think their life has, and and the sort of grand purpose that they that they ascribe to things. And so everybody is interpreting reality through that story,

through that lens, and he has his particular lens. And for some reason, maybe because she's like, um, you know, I think she's like a junior senior in high school, right, so you know, she's right on the cusp of of young adulthood. And in his mind, the big thing is like a boyfriend, Like, is she gonna have a boyfriend? And she's not gonna have a boyfriend? What are the

boys doing? Who she's seeing? So every conversation becomes about that, and he never gives her the space ace to be like to just ask, really, what's going on with you, you know, tell me what's been going on in your life? And it's always like he asked her a specific thing and she can respond to that specific question, and then it's like she can barely get a word in, you know, and she when she finally tells him about the accident, which is quite a long time after it actually happens,

when she finally opens up about it. She has to kind of just butt in and say, hey, well we'll wait a minute, that there's actually something kind of serious I need to talk to you about. But it takes her making that extra step to get him to like

kind of listen. Um. And then there's that great sequence where you know he's heard the story and now he's trying to give his advice a little bit, and then his like new girlfriend or wife comes in and again it's it's this great thing where it didn't still true to life, where things you know in drama that would never happen right in drama, you would just have the conversation father and daughter without the interruptions, and it would kind of get to the core of something in their relationship.

But instead this other person comes in midway through and they're talking about what food do you want to order for the trip that we're doing in like this trip yeah, yeah, yeah, And uh. It's just so funny the way you can see his patients being tested with every additional interruption where he like covers the funniest I'm sorry, I'm just in

the minute, I'm just in the middle of something right now. Um, can can we please just And he's he's holding it back, and he's holding it back because he's a smild manner guy. But you kind of get this since that sooner or later he's going to explode too, because it's just stress that that he's being put under by being pulled in these two directions at the same time. And I love the kind of almost uncinematic nous of that, you know, of having these like inconvenient things happen in the middle

of what should be these big pivotal, dramatic moments. But that's just how life is. It's not, um, it never it's never as smooth as you see in a movie. Yeah, and and those that's one of the many moments where it's sort of dabbles in cinema verity a little bit. I think it's a great effect. Um And and the other thing I noticed from that scene too, well, a couple of things is a he's sort of miserable in his life too. He doesn't like his current wife he um and I think he's just kind of a sad bastard.

Genuine he's probably very very self pitying. And um yeah, it's so funny whenever whenever they talk, you know, she's like how are you like, Oh, things are good. I think it's a little slow yet slow, but I might have some stuff coming up in the fall. You know. It's like he's talking to his agent or something. It's

like that. But he is this this self obsessed person, which Lisa is too in a way, and and everyone is to some extent, but he's never It's interesting because at the one on one hand, he is maybe a more like well read, thoughtful, kind of philosophical person. He has that kind of um, you know, he he brings up that great that great quote about uh, George Bernard Shaw saying that you know, the Englishman sees the world as their own personal moral gymnasium and didn' she knows where,

he knows where it's from. Um. And so you know, in some ways he is more reflective and thoughtful, but in other ways he's completely trapped in his own mind, in his own perspective and um. Yeah, and he's he's just kind of not really there as a father, even though he probably thinks he is, because he's never done anything nasty. He's never done you know, any of the things your quote unquote not supposed to do as a parent.

But at the same time, he's kind of um, he just he just has her arms length emotionally and they're not really close the way um, you know, you hope a parent and child would be. Yeah. And and the other thing he does in that scene, which is what all the adults do when they hear this story, and I think it's a big part of the movie, which is the accident and this conundrum she's in from a teenager's point of view, and then from the adults, and every single adult that she tells, the first thing they

say is we should call an attorney. And she doesn't get it. She doesn't want to. Um, Emily says it. He says it. I think her mom says it, and everyone is like, oh shit, this is like this could be really bad and we need to just talk to someone who knows how we should best handle this. Where she's just all it and all emotion and and just just wants to get this guy fired so he doesn't

do this again. And it's also like she's she's only looking at it from the perspective of this kind of objective morality, ethical kind of lens, because that's what she's

kind of getting in all her classrooms. She's getting these great moral debates in the in the abstract kind of and so she sees this thing happens in her life and she almost sees like, oh, this is this is one of those great conundrums that I can kind of explore, you know, and she she doesn't think about I mean, the first thing that her mom's is is that Will sweetie, like he probably has a family he has to take

care of. Um. Yeah, there there's there's these real world connections, and you know, the the the understood assumption is like it was it was an accident. It wasn't like he maliciously ran this person over. It was it was negligent in the moment, but it wasn't it didn't come out of this great malice. And you also, Lisa bear some

responsibility for this event. So because it's kind of messy and gray, and because no matter what we do, we're not going to bring this person back to life, Like what is really to be gained by um ruining this guy's life for a mistake that like anybody could make um And so that that's that's the response to the adults is just like, let's let's think about how this is going to affect this other person, their family that certainly has no responsibility for this accident, but they would

suffer too if he were to lose his job, is pension and so on. So that's like the lens through which the adults view, which is like it's ambiguous, it's it's gray area, you know, there's there's shades of right

and wrong. It's not so clear, whereas Lisa is much more of an absolutist, like would be yeah, yeah, and um, you know, because she's so disillusioned in the end by the system, because she should be very simple, like I go in there, I change my statement, and they get this guy fired and make sure you can't do this again because that's how it works. And then that's not

how the system works. And she just sort of the system is always there, man, it's always moving, and she just gets sort of swept up into it for a moment um, and she like I'd almost like to see a sequel to this movie of Lisa in her thirties or forties to see how she change yeah yeah, and like have her have a kid. It would be it's such an interesting character. Uh, This this youth, this the

naivete of youth is just on such full display here. Uh, and the and the rage and the pure emotion of you if there's so many scenes where she just ex loads, like on her mom or on Emily in that one scene where that great, great scene where we were talking about earlier, where she doesn't realize she kind of is making it about her, but she is. But she's also a kid that went through this trauma and like she did kind of feel for a moment like she was her kid and that they had this moment but the

best friend didn't want to hear that ship. You know. It's one of those things where it's like the movie does this so well where the tension that that breaks in that scene is something that's kind of been building, you know, over time, and she's she's Emily is is kind of like this. She's probably had to bite her

tongue a few times before this. But when she starts talking, you know, specifically about um, you know, I was with your friend and she was dying and and I think for a few minutes she confused me with her daughter, and you know it's almost like for those few minutes

I was her daughter. It just rubs her the wrong way, like ye hang on, like you're you're really building yourself up to be like in a movie, you would be be sort of like the last thing before you know, everything flashes to white and we cut to the funeral or whatever. Like you would be like the kind of um, the conclusion of this person's life is to be kind of quote unquote reunited with their daughter for a few minutes,

you know, before passing on. Whereas Emily has this perspective of much more like, no, it's just a dumb, stupid, unfortunate, tragic thing that happened, and it's almost a disservice to her life to to ascribe that particular event too much meaning because it changes everything that came before it. And it's unfair in a way because it's just a dumb accident and it shouldn't affect how we think about the

rest of this person's life. So there's no need and it's almost offensive to like narrativize that event and you put your cast yourself as like the leading supporting character as this sort of like angel or something that comes in at the eleventh hour and like shepherds them into the afterlife. It's just kind of you know, Emily's grossed out by and she can't she can't hold her tongue

any longer. Yeah, And I think she's sort of like I think she clearly gets that from her mom, because her mom's a good woman and she's a single mob

like keeping it together, but she's also narcissistic. And I think that scene where a great scene where the mom wants to get to get together with this new woman in her life that she's pursuing this case with, and she just sort of says, you know, she tells me, you're in a play, and then she starts that narcissism of like, oh, well, you know, it's nice to be recognized, and then and all this stuff, and you can see in Emily's eyes like that's where she gets it, like

like she is from yeah, yeah, and these sort of I mean they live in the same neighborhood, I guess. But I guess if you get the feeling that that maybe Emily is in uh, not that she's poor, but maybe in some like d of old school rent control scene and not a part of this Upper west Side Broadway star kind of scene. Right, she's she's a little bit more not working class, but she's she's definitely like a little bit more. I mean, she seems like a lifelong New Yorker. She has that kind of toughness and

terseness in a way. Um. But at the same time, yeah, she's she whatever she does, it seems like she would probably be involved in, like, you know, literary life for some something kind of intellectual in a way. Um. Yeah. And and yeah, she's she's not living high in the hog. She's she doesn't have some glamorous life, but she does have her life that she's carved out for herself in

the city. And um, yeah, it's clear that that Lisa and her family come from a little bit of different strata in that way, as as does the Mark Ruffler, the bus driver. Yeah, that boy, that scene where she finally goes and confronts him. Um, it's funny. Before before that happened, I thought he was not going to appear again in the movie. Yeah, Like I had this fan fiction theory that that's Terry from you can count on me exactly, But then it turned out to be it's

atally different thing. And um, a much less caring, sympathetic character, I guess. Yeah. And uh, the great Um, what's her name I'm looking now? Rosemary DeWitt who was just so great and everything that she's in a very small part here. But what that that's a really tough scene, um because he like he just basically denies it flat out, like

I don't even know what you're talking about. And you can see her this is when the reality of the system starts to wash over her, like the fact that this guy won't admit and confide in her like yeah, we this thing happened between us, and and that's why

I hit her. Like she's just outraged that this could be how things go in life, that works in the world exactly, that that this great injustice could could happen and there's nothing anybody can do about it to change it, and and all the adults seem okay with it, you know, no, like like there's nobody's going to stand up and make the great speech on the courtroom and like justice is gonna be served and everyone's gonna learn this great lesson.

Like no, it's just like because there's this whole backdrop of like there's a big labor dispute negotiation happening, and the Transit Workers Union does not want to fire any of its employees, especially related to like an outside civil complaint because that's going to show that they are not protecting their workers the way that a union is supposed to and so and and that's really interesting too because if you think of just like in the abstract, you think, okay, well,

like it's a union, it's going to protect the workers. They're gonna get better wages there, you know, there's gonna be better conditions and so on, that there's gonna be more job security. Um, it's it's gonna help all these people who are kind of working class to still have like a pretty reliable um way of living, you know. And so it's it's it's this good thing in in the overall big picture, but in the specific where this like injustice has happened, just the way the power dynamics

shake out and everything. They're going to defend this guy who's not a great guy and who probably shouldn't be driving a bus because he's had these other prior complaints and they've just kind of rapped them around from place

to place and swept it all under the rug. So yeah, you like, on the one hand, you do want accountability, but on the other hand, you don't want it to go so far that like they can just fire people at will and and you know, pay people less and and you know, race to the bottom kind of stuff.

So again, it's it's that that moral complexity, like the the injustice done to this one small person versus the greater kind of good of having these um labor protections and so on, and the way that there are contradictions involved all the time, and it's just reality smashing her in the face, like over and over again in this movie, the scene with the that fucking asshole detective who was who was not not sitting in for the other but the other guy's not there yet, and boy, the way

she's treated by this guy, And it's just that didn't have to be in this movie, but I feel like that was sort of one of the points is like, this is the adult world, and you are seventeen year old coming in there, acting like you should get this special attention or maybe any attention, and she's dismissed at every turn, and that guy is such a fucking jerk. Yeah,

he's a jerk. And you also get the sense that like, in a way, it's just pure happenstance that she got the detective that she got, who is a more sympathetic ear and is actually willing to kind of humor her a little bit. Yeah, more much, much more than this other jaded kind of jerk is going to. He's willing to hear out. He actually is willing to amend the statement and talk to the bus driver again. And he's he's only going to take so far, but he's at

least willing to take it that far. Where's this other guy just completely shuts her down. He's very condescending, calls her honey, um yeah, and and just you know, she tells him her name, like three seconds later, he's like, what what's her name again? Okay, Lisa, blah blah blah. You know. He's he's like a just a just a real prick, but um, very very realistically portrayed, you know, and we've all met these people too. So Matt Dameman is in this movie. He plays her sort of young

enhancent teacher. And like I said earlier, you could have completely made a movie just about what happens with them. There are movie there are movies that exist that are just about that. And it was so realistic and so and I imagine this is one of the things that could have been cut Whole Cloth from the movie in a shorter version. Um, but it's like all this is going on, and then she's sort of throwing herself at these different boys because she didn't know what the hell

to do. I think part of it is just that sort of thing you do when you're going through with trauma to distract yourself. But this one was really tough to watch. When she goes to his apartment and you're just like, don't, don't do it, and don't do it, and she's so, uh, what's the word, like that young siren man. That's like she's she's using all of her young feminine wiles, which she doesn't even fully understand how powerful. Yeah, and uh, oh god, and he does and she gets

pregnant and it's fucking just brutal. Yeah, it's really interesting, Like in terms of the things some of the things that were cut for the shorter version. The scene where she actually goes and gets the abortion is not in the shorter cut, So you see, you see, you do see the fact that they had sex. That's still there. And then the scene later on where she walks up to Matt Damon and the other teacher on the street and just says, just blurts out, did you have an

abortion last week? So you don't see the actual abortion in the middle. So in the shorter cut at act, he plays like is Lisa telling the truth? Is she messing around and she just playing a head game with this guy. It's a very different tone that it takes. Um. So that one scene, Yeah, yeah, you don't, you don't know, like you you're you're just kind of left to like

maybe she was, Maybe she wasn't. We're not really sure if that's just something she's saying just to kind of see what his reaction is going to be, like if he's gonna you know, who knows? Um. So, yeah, it makes her into a somewhat different character. That's it's a little more diabolical. Um, the idea that she might just be throwing that out there to like scare him or or kind of yeah, mess with his head a little bit. Yeah, I mean he should. And this is someone who h

was going to be a teacher at one point. My parents were both teachers. Like, you don't even go get the coffee with her, right, you don't invite her to your apartment, Like I feel like he might have had decent intentions. Initially because she was one of the students, it was kind of suffering and reaching out to him, but like, you just you can't. And he try is early on, you know, to not put himself in that position,

but he does. And then yeah, that's scene where she kind of sees on riding his bike and and you know, she starts to say all this stuff like did you know, and like insanely in love with you and I'm not a virgin if you're worried about that, you know, and he's just like, I can't be having this conversation, gets

on his bike and gets out of there. But it should have been the end of it, but I feel like, yeah, I mean the big mistake was certainly he crossed the line and having her over to his apartment like that. And then there's almost like a secondary line crossing in the scene where she asked if she can smoke in the apartment. He says yeah, sure, and he goes up to get an ash tray, and then when she sits back down, she sits next to him, and then it's kind of all over from there. Um yeah, but um,

you know I love next to him. Yeah, she's before she was in a different chair exactly there. He's on a couch, she's in a chair. And then after you know, they he gets up to get the ash tray and she goes up to to get a light. Um. They sit back down on the same couch, side by side, and then she starts moving in and it goes pretty quickly from there. Even though he's still kind of like, we can't, we shouldn't, don't you know, he gives it

pretty quickly. Yeah. Another scene that could have easily been cut, and a character that could have been cut was Matthew Broderick's character and the great the Shakespeare scene in class. It's so funny and and it doesn't even add much to the film other than just a bit of comic relief of this teacher. And in my mind it was also a little bit of fan fiction that that even though I think they, oh, no, I guess it could have worked out timeline wise that that was the teacher

from election. He's also relocated like Mark Rufflo, they both yeah, because he went to New York. So he gets he gets this job where he's so he lands on his feet fighting with this uh, this little young male version of Tracy Flick about what Shakespeare means. And it's that thing that we I think that we probably saw in school,

but maybe they didn't even direct because we were just kids. Well, there's there's something funny in that scene where he basically just like the kid keeps coming back to him with this interpretation like well, like you know, Shakespeare is comparing you know, humans two flies, and gods to humans, and and you know, like if he keeps talking about like

if gods have a higher consciousness, then they don't. They don't think the way humans think and the way that you know, a fly cannot understand the way of human thinks. And so what we perceive as you know, a malicious act on the part of the gods, you know, killing

us for their sport. Um. Maybe there is some grand design and we just can't appreciate it because we're these mere humans and they're these great gods that have this higher consciousness um, which I think is I mean, it's a fine interpretation, but it's it's just funny because you can tell Matthew Brodick is like, well, that's not the scholarly opinion on this passage. You know, all the literary critics agree Shakespeare is talking about this other thing, and

that's that's ultimately the only rebuttal he has. Like he he doesn't really have he you know, he kind of has this off handed remark like, well, you know, Shakespeare says somewhere else on the play that that's not what he's talking about, but I don't even want to get into that. Like he kind of, uh, he kind of just like bigfoots him, and it's just sort of like, look, here's what the established scholarly opinion says, this passage means.

That's what it means. You're wrong, We're moving on, you know. And it's funny because all throughout the scene he like keeps drinking this orange juice. Um. After he has that final blow up, he like walks over to his desk and like eats the sandwich. So you kind of get the idea that like maybe he's just like hungry and he's a little cranky and that's why he's being particularly

short with uh, with his student today. Um. There's there's so many things like that throughout the film where someone who's maybe even in a position of authority, uh, like a grown up that you think is supposed to be this kind of like evolved neutral, um, kind of moral authority. Um, they have all these like mitigating circumstances. So maybe Matthew Broderick is just hungering, cranky. Maybe something's going on in

his life and he's not in the best mood. So on a different day, maybe he would have engaged more with that student's ideas and they could have had like a fruitful discussion. Instead, he just like shuts him down. He's like, look, we're moving on. That's not what we're talking about here, because that's not I'm not equipped to discuss this in the way that you're bringing forward because I have this like preconceived notion of what the scenes about, and so we're just gonna move on. That's kind of

what he does to the kid. Yeah, my take on that scene was that that Matthew Broddick wasn't following him and didn't really understand him, and the kid kind of outwitted him, and uh, he did the opposite of what a teacher should do, which was I'm caught not fully understanding it. Because eventually he does kind of say, well, I don't know, but what you should do as a teacher is indulged in and ask for more explanation and say,

you know what, you kind of got me here. I really don't know what you're saying, but let's talk more about it. But he's I think of the ego, there's narcissism from the adult some display all throughout this movie, very sort of subtly, and I think this is just another example of that adult ego with a kid around not wanting to sort of reveal his hand, which is I don't really know what this kid's talking about right now. Yeah,

he wants to. He wants to maintain that air of like knowing it all, authority of authority, yeah, and and of being like I'm the teacher, you're the student. I'm going to tell you what this stuff means. Um, even when I ask you what you think it means, I want you to tell me the thing that I already think it is. And if you come at me with some other idea that doesn't connect up with like what I had in mind to discuss or the way I see it, instead of like engaging with that, he just

shuts it down. Um, which is I've seen that happen, you know. I mean, it's there's there's a lot of times also like there's that one kid who always like when he's called on, he has like a dumb thing to say kind of Um, so there there. I've been in classrooms where that happens too. We all have where it's like you're you're having a really cool discussion about something and then someone just throws a wrench into it because they're not really following the train of thought that

everyone else. Is the kind of derail over where you know that the one that's coming to mind right now is the kid who says, um, you know, why is it cool to bomb men, but like it's not cool to bomb women and children? Like isn't that just like a reverse sexism or something? Right? And and the teachers like, I don't know, like, you know, that's not really the conversation we're having, and you're sort of like your premises way off and I don't really want to get into this,

like they just kind of God bless the teachers. Uh. So let's talk some about the filmmaking. Um, this is a movie that has some of the most beautiful transition shots, uh, that I've ever seen in a movie. And it was a love letter to the city. And it was clear to Lanagan that that Lanagan really wanted to showcase New York. A bunch of them spring to mind, but um, I've

jotted down a few of my favorites. That one, I mean, my god, that one transition where he he usually has that lockdown shot from above on the city street and I think that probably might be outside her apartment maybe, But the one where he finally moves the camera and it felt slowly all the way the Endless Avenue at night, and then it follows that plane yea, as it flies through the sky to its kind of goes along the edge of that building, like it it never gotapped by

the building. It was like a crazy shot. I don't know how they got that, or how they planned it, or if it was just sheer luck or what. But I mean the time to kind of scout like the flight paths and and just knowing that like a plane's gonna fly over that, and timing it and and and you know, getting the shot where it's like smooth and everything. Very very impressive kind of technical achievement there. Yeah, And so many shots like this, all the transition shots, these languid,

slow tilts and hands around New York City. Um, the shots of the buildings reflecting in their buildings. Uh. Just a real love letter that. The one shot God that I loved was towards the end when they're at the opera uh, and it follows for all the way down the staircase uh and then through the door into the theater all the way to her seat, and it's just like this one continuous shot and it's just fucking gorgeous. Yeah. And it's like it's it's not a showy film, I

don't think. I mean, every time he does that, there's like a real kind of narrative purpose that he's serving. It's not showy in that way. Um. But at the same time, it is very ambitious formally. Um in a way I think that's really really cool um and and

very very interesting. There's another one of those great panning shots of the skinny skyline that I think is really cool, where they're panning and it's kind of tracking along with like this bird that's flying in the sky, and then it continues to pan and there's also like an airplane in the background and it continues to pan and you know it just these these really really nice visual moments that again, like you could not stage. You just have to be there with a camera and look for it,

wait for it and catch something interesting like that. Um yeah, yeah, there's that shot and Tree of Life where you see like the um the flock of birds like changing direction spontaneously kind of reminded me of that shot a little bit. Another one, And I think all the airplanes. There are a lot of shot of airplanes. I think that was sort of a little nod to nine two sure. Yeah. And and just the idea too that like when you look up at an airplane, you're looking up at potentially

hundreds of people, again, all with their own story. Maybe they're maybe they're coming to New York. Maybe New York is just a connection. Um. But like the sense that everyone's life is just like moving, you know, there's always movement, there's always things going on. Um, there's like way too many things to contain. Uh, there's there's just like this constant flood of of things happening all around you know, and um, all we can do is try to contain

that and contextualize it for our own lives. But um, you know, because you would would kind of like lose your mind if you if you try to actually literally respond to all the stimula. There's there's no way you have to filter down. I miss New York. Another couple of shots that I loved. One that great, great shot from behind where Lisa's walking down the sidewalk and the camera is following, the lens is following her as she walks, and then at a certain point that it's and I've

never seen a shot do this. Uh it's the it stops the camera uh stops the It's not a push, it's actually a zoom, I think, and then it starts to widen back out and then it tilts up and follows into the sky. It was unbelievable. And it's that's kind of a if you looked at it on paper, it's a very showy shot, but it doesn't really come

across that way in this movie somehow. Yeah, I mean it's that's that's probably, you know, when Lonergan is talking about this idea of like having shots where you just kind of happened to catch Lisa in a crowd, but it's not really framed for her that one does. It does definitely start out on her because it's kind of

a long lens. It's a little bit of shallowed up the field with the focus on her, and the focus is tracking with her as she walks into the crowd, but at a certain point, the focus stops and it just kind of sits, and you start to see other people come into focus as she gets completely, you know, absorbed by this crowd, like they start overlapping her, and then you just lose sight of her, and then it starts to kind of the zoom starts pulling back and

tilting up, and yeah, it's one of those things where, like you you very rarely see camera moves like that in a film where there's not some kind of foeground subject that you're tracking with that kind of motivates the

camera to move that way. It is very like almost fourth wall kind of breaking shot where it's just like we're gonna, we're gonna do this thing that's a very very overt camera move, and I'm just gonna kind of show my hand a little bit in terms of I want you to be taking in this broader perspective of

all these people in this city. And again just just to kind of illustrate that idea, um, this film could be about any one of these people in this whole crowd, and it would kind of be saying, at a fundamental level, the same thing that everyone has, these these lives that are going on. So the fun shot that I want to talk about is that the great sort of subtle shot where she goes down and gets on the subway under the poster her Broadway poster of her mom controversy. Yeah,

and and doesn't even acknowledge it. She's like literally walks right by the poster of her mom's face and doesn't even look at it. Yeah, very nice little moment, I think from long again there, Yeah, Yeah, I like I love the way that, Um, it's just like it's part of the landscape, as part of the backdrop. But you know,

I mean that does that seems realistic? Right that? Um, if if all your life your mom has been in plays like that, then it's nothing special to you, particularly anymore, especially if you're a teenager and you're kind of self involved and you know, you don't have a more evolved perspective where you're like, you know what, that's really cool that my mom's and actress and you know, so on Um, yeah, she's annoyed by it, probably, Yeah, get the feeling that

later in life she would appreciate it more for sure, and there are times when she is you know, when you when you can tell she's not super annoyed by it, but she's a teenager. She has that scene where, um, uh you know it's it's it's it's a really really great argument scene mother daughter kind of argument where her mom is like getting ready to took out on a date. She asked, uh, Lisa, you know, does this trust make

me look fat? And Lisa's like, yeah, a little, and then she said, well, there's nothing more I can do about it now. And then you know, the whole thing about like do you want to go to the opera in a few weeks um, and Lisa's like no, I don't like opera, and then they kind of have it back and forth about that, and like, you know, herr mom eventually says to her like, why does everything I say to you like annoy you so much? And then Lisa has that kind of meltdown where she's like, Mom,

I don't I don't care about this. I don't care about your dumb problems or my dumb problems. You know, there's there's bigger things out here, and um, I just like I can I I really can remember similar moment when I was like a teenager, and you have those weird, like hormonal kind of shifts that happen where suddenly you're just in a terrible mood or something, and um, it's like you're you know, you you start to like butt

heads with your parents for really no reason. You know, you're you're like, there's a there's a phase that some kids get into where they're just kind of annoyed by almost the existence of their parents. And I don't know, like I love the way that in that in that scene, like her mom like you know, called her the C word and then she throws it back at her and she's like, all right, well let's not start calling names. Is like you just call me that, Like it's it's

really really funny. And um, and then like you know, all of this is leading up to she's supposed to meet jeanre No that night, and then you know, she's like, well, should I have him come up or should I just have them wait downstairs? You know where she just she just wants to, you know, introduce her kid. And now like this, this this meltdown has happened. And um, even even when they like start going on their date and

they're kind of walking up to Lincoln Center. Um, there's you know, she has this kind of like worried, unhappy look on her face, and he asked her, is everything all right? And she kind of like switches it off.

She's like, no, no, no, everything's fine. And you know, I just I love that the way that you can you could say, I mean, in most movies, if you had a date scene like that, it would just all be about, you know, one person anticipating the date, the other person anticipating the date, and the nervousness and and and so on, and then like whatever happened between them emotionally, it would all just be about the two of them.

You wouldn't introduce this third element, which is her daughter happened to pick a fight like five minutes before she's about to walk out the door. And there's that great scene in the elevator to UM where she gets on the elevator her mom does and she's kind of crying, and then the elevator stops on another floor and like a neighbor gets on and she very quickly has to kind of collect herself, and then the neighbor happens to know that she is an actor, and you know, starts

complimenting and everything. She has to be kind of gracious in that moment. But I just I love the way that all these things are are constantly colliding with each other again, like in a way that you almost never see in uh in in drama, their fiction. Yeah, let's talk about that last uh that last scene, you know, And I kind of called it to myself because I watched it by myself last night earlier when she does invite her to the opera. Immediately when she said she'd go,

I went, that's going to be the last scene. That's yeah, I can kind of see that coming. And um, you know, they get dressed up and she even has a sweet line the mom does where she goes, we can dress up like you know, that that connection she's trying to make girls night out kind of thing. And boy, and you know, just throughout the movie, his use of classical music and opera is just outstanding. And it comes to its apex here where this very moving thing is happening

on stage. Everything is finally just culminated his life to the point where she starts breaking down. The mom looks over and starts breaking down, and then they're just sitting there bawling and just have this embrace that's like so

healing for the audience, remember to see this happen. There's that it's just overhead looking down shot where she reaches her hand over and you know she's she's kind of gripping because she's like holding on for dear life because she's you get the sense that this is the moment whatever.

You know, this Catharsis has arrived because of the beautiful music, because she's there with her mom in the opera, and you know, so many things are going on and the case has just been settled in this really unsatisfactory way, this really undrest way. She's even just seen the bus driver like out again. Um, and it's like yeah, and this moment in this in this one moment, she she just kind of has this breakdown and you know she's holding on for dear life and she grabs onto her mom.

They start holding each other and this is beautiful moment of like reconciliation and healing and connection and you know, you get the sense that this is like it is

a breakthrough. It's maybe not the last breakthrough she's going to have, but this is a big one to kind of re established that that relationship she has with her mother and um and and and just kind of returned to the fundamentals, like she can she can leave that parallel life she's been living with, like the court case and um just everything that's that's been going through her

mind about the bus accident. She can start to kind of put that behind her now and and focus on what's going to be next to her life because the rest of the world has moved on and she's certainly done all she could do to try to rectify that. The system has kind of neutered the response. But she did what she could do, and now it's time to to get on with her life. Yeah, And I mean

just that's one of the things. It's also losing her virginity and sleeping with her teacher and getting pregnant and having an abortion and having this uh fraught relationship with this new woman who Emily, who sort of plays out as a little surrogate mom in subtle ways, and then this brutal situation that she goes through with his cousin in Arizona, who are just money grubbers. And uh again, I'll be these reality checks slapping her in the face

of like this is what the adult world is. Like you're going to the private school school and on the Upper West Side, and like this is what the real world is. Punch, punch, Punch. I love the line that the lawyer has where he's like, this is how our society punishes people. You see, not you, not the individual, but the insurance company of the employer. It's just it's so abstract. It seems to have nothing to do with with any form of She wanted personal payback, Yeah, she wanted.

She wanted. Um, you know, it's like when they're when they're on that final speakerphone conversation. Um, she's like, I you know, I know I did it. I know I'm responsible. I just want somebody, you know, I want him to know that he was responsible to I want somebody to acknowledge that, you know that that's something wrong happened here. It can't just how can it that's something like that can happen and the world just keeps moving and nothing changes.

It just seems so unjust and unfair because she's been she's she's had this idea that that in the world, you know, the bad people are punished and the good people are are rewarded, and you know, it's it's just not that simple. I get. And that's sort of a nine eleven allegory as well. Um, I sort of get the feeling that if she had gone to Mark Ruffalo in that scene and he asked his wife for some time alone, and he breaks down and says, I'm so sorry. I've been hoping you would come by. I I can

barely sleep at night. I can't believe this happened. And I've had a family. Thank you for lying, because I can't lose my job like she would have. That would have been enough for her exactly. Yeah, That's that's all she really wanted, was just you know, that that private admission between the two of them that you know, there's we there's nothing we can do to bring her back now, but can we at least admit among ourselves in private that this is what happened and that we're both responsible.

And he was just like, you know, his only response really is is to just completely shut it down and play play innocent, like I have no idea what you're even talking about. What I was looking at you, what do you mean? Um? And then he finally has this thing where he's like, look like the brakes on the bus can only slow down at a certain rate and the distance between me and there, so you can tell

he's had his rationalization. Exactly. That's the story he's told himself in his mind, which is a very like technical one of like, you know, break responsiveness and this is the was from the intersection and all that kind of stuff. He's like, no, it was, like it was it's a physics problem, like I can't there's nothing that could have been done, you know. That's that's how he's justified it to himself, and it's just, yeah, it's very interesting that

that whole sequence. You know, if you really think about it in retrospect, if any one of those elements had been different, it might not have happened. You know, if if, for instance, the trip that she was going on was not a horse riding trip, she wouldn't have been looking for a cowboy hat. It never would have happened, you know, if her father had picked some other destination, if Mark Ruffalo hadn't put on the cowboy hat that day, you know,

it would have been different. Exactly. It's a sliding doorth thing, like if if Lisa had maybe gotten to the bus a few seconds earlier, maybe he wouldn't have closed the door and they could have had a conversation like on

the bus or or whatever. You know, Like, there's there's so many different things, and there's even I think kind of a deep subtext a little bit, which is that he is kind of having this flirtatious moment with her and and he's he's sort of like, oh, there's like this cute girl and she's chasing the bus and I'm

kind of giving her a hard time. And um. Then then when she goes to see him at home, like the wife is just like immediately super suspicious, and you get the feeling that he's probably had some like affairs or something in the past or that that has has driven a real wedge between them and that relationship. And so within when Lisa shows up out of the blue, the wife is already like, who the hell is this person? What is she doing here? You know, what, what have

you got in yourself? And he's he's doubly panicked because on the one hand, he's like, You're gonna mess up my relationship. She's gonna think I'm having some some kind of affair with this young woman. Um. And then of course at the same time, he's also worried about his job and and and all that, so he's super freaked out. Uh did you recognize that attorney by the way, he looks super familiar, but I couldn't place, like what else I know him from? He is Dobell in klausn Okay, okay,

intolerable cruelty. Yeah, yeah, remember that Carl great great, Uh just a great face. You know, there's so many like I immediately saw him. I was like, oh my god, because that's one of my favorite parts of that movie. There's so many uh wonderful kind of character actors and and familiar faces in this movie. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, his

his part's great. I love just his like, I mean, he he inhabits that role so so well, where he's like, yes, this is our system, isn't a great we get money like you know, Um, he has a sense of humor about it because he's he's a grown up and he he knows is the system. And I'm sure at some point he was also shocked that it was kind of

like that callous or whatever. But he's like, look, this is the world as it is, Like it's the world that exists, not not some world of ideals, not some world of quote unquote the way it should be, just reality, the way it is. Such good stuff, man, good talk, great movie. God damn, if you haven't seen Margaret, do yourself a favor and watch the three hour and six minute version settle in. It's very rewarding. Um. It is very languid and has a pace that you have to

um be rid before. But um, it's just so great man, such a good you know, slice of life and and a whole picture of a young woman and and a grown woman and her mother and all these characters are so fully realized. And um and again, I think that you could have made a hour and forty minute version of this movie that was great. It was just about this accident. Um, But you strip all that stuff away,

and it's it's a different film. You know, you would you would You would essentially not learn or or or come to this insight that the film is trying to lead you to about how we all invent this story for our own lives. But the whole, the world itself is so much larger and more complex than than in

one person story. You would lose all that. You would effectively make the same mistake that Lisa makes you know, if you were to cut this film down, you would be back in that world of like solipsism and narcissism and only dealing with um things as they affect you personally, but not thinking about the broader you know, uh, consequences

of actions. We're all just NAT's there's you know the poem because a lot of people get confused and they think that Lisa's name is going to be Margaret or maybe the woman who dies is going to be near Margaret, and you're kind of yeah, and um, so this poem, you know, the way it goes by in the film. I think it's hard if you haven't seen the film already to really grasp like what the usage of that poem is. Yeah, and it's several times yeah Bring and

Fall by a Gerard Manley Hopkins. It's really interesting. I looked it up on the internet. There's a dedication like a subtitle to the to the title kind of um that's not mentioned in the film, but it's dedicated to a young child. So in a way, um, it's about you know, the moral and and kind of emotional development of a young child that early on in life cries easily and cries at things because it's the first time they've encountered this idea of loss or tragedy or or

or injustice. And um and how as you age, um, we become a little bit more coarsened to that stuff. UM. And he says, you know, Margaret, are you grieving over Golden Grove? On leaving? Then the last line it is the blite man was born for. It is Margaret you mourn for. So you're mourning for yourself when you when you see this external tragedy, there's a part of you

that feels bad for that person. But at a deeper level, it's the understanding that you two are mortal, right, and that all this stuff that that is unfair and is visited upon others. It means that you two could be you know, could find yourself on the other end of that um. Like the like the speech Emily made you know where she says, you know, um, you're not the one who got hit by a bus, and you're not the one who just died in an earthquake somewhere else

in the world. You know, but you will be, you know, that's the thing. You will be that one day. UM. So I think it's yeah, it's it's it's a profound kind of film about um, somebody coming to two terms with um, what it is to be an adult, what it is to to be confronted with moral complexity in the world, and in just a lot of gray area and no easy answers. Yeah, totally great movie. I guess we have Manchester by the scene next. Yeah, so let's get you in here another month or a month and

a half that laugh fest. Uh, yeah, that wouldn't know that's about either. I just know it's stuff. Yeah, don't don't read anything about it. Um. Alright, we'll go in as cold as you can and alright, I love to you know, look forward to talking about it. Awesome and maybe we'll get knneth Lawn again on the show on day. I'm gonna Lena see if we can alert him somehow that we've been paying him homage here. That was incredible. Yeah, you would be invited, Casey if he did not. All right,

I'll just start I'll try to calm down. No, I don't think it's gonna happen, so don't It's a long shot, but we'll see, all right. Man. Well, thanks a lot, take care and thank you all for listening and we will see you next week By everybody. Bomy Crush has produced, edited, and engineered by Ramsay Hunt here in our home studio at Pont City Market, Atlanta, Georgia. For I Heart Radio.

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