Syncing Up Our Periods With Our Ancestors (#183)

Well, are we recording right now? Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. Did you just remember what you were going to talk about or not? okay. what I was gonna talk about, so we're fine. I got distracted by a meme. And then when I looked up, I was like, shit, I don't know if we're actually recording or not right now. So with that introduction, I guess we ought to get started, huh? What was the meme kid? What was the meme? meme was good.

The meme was, God, dude, I don't want to talk golf, but like it was a golf meme. Okay, what you got to explain it now? Okay, so God, there's just there's a lot of there's a lot to this meme that I don't really love about myself, but it's like. It's like. I don't know, like, you know, the old, you know, I hate I hate like the old stand up comedy that's like, hey, man, isn't it funny being married like husbands are like this and wives are like that.

Like it has a little bit of that to it, like a little inherent sexism to it, I think. usually golf golfing, I would expect that because golf golf and shopping are usually what get lumped into that, right? Like, yeah. exactly. So this meme was just like about like, the meme was basically the concept of like, it's only when you're having your best round of golf that you start getting the flood of texts from your wife that's like, the dog is sick, shitting all over the carpet.

The dog has shit four times on the carpet. I've been cleaning it up. The neighbors came over and they've called social services because of the smell in our house of dog shit. Obviously that's all exaggerated, you know, but like that is a real thing. the only time, like look, my wife is pretty autonomous when it comes to like, you know, if we're doing, if I'm doing my own thing and she's doing her own thing, it's just like, go do your thing.

But like, I'm telling you right now, Mike, if I am having like, it's like, it's like the, it's like the world, like the universe knows and you've been around me when it happens. Like if I, it's only when I'm having the time of my life that I start getting those like, Hey, I'm taking the dog to the vet or the, your son just broke his arm, you know, it's only, it's only in those moments when I get those texts, you know what mean? don't know it's all connected.

And then the reverse whenever we're hanging out, your wife gets holes in one and like wins tournaments. Literally, dude, literally. Well, I mean, it's just God. I don't know, man. I don't know what to say. Even that's a good example, though, like, of course, you and I were off having the time of our lives. And I think that the time we were doing like a retreat, like a ceremony retreat.

And of course, that's when she gets a hole in one and she calls me like all excited and I'm like, I'm not there. Once again, I'm a bad fucking husband not there to celebrate your great achievement with you, you know? Either not there to help the dog or the broken arm or to get drunk with her after a hole in one. Yeah, I'm not, I'm just, I'm just not there to, to, to share in life's most intense moments.

Like the good with the bad, you know, it's like, Doug's off doing medicine again, or Doug's off golfing alone. Weirdly, I don't know why he's off golfing alone, but he is, know. So why are you such a failure? that what we're going to talk about? think today's episode is probably going to be titled, Why is Doug such a fucking failure? Right? Let's get to the bottom of this.

man, it's hard not to feel that way sometimes though, Like, I didn't mean to get that deep with it, but like sometimes it's hard to not feel like, God, what is with me?

Everything goes my way and I'm still like, pouting. You know, I was getting, was one of these nights I was just releasing a lot of emotion. that's been a thing for me lately. I started doing yoga again. I should have never stopped doing yoga, but for, think for awhile here, I've just kind of stopped doing yoga. Then I was like, you know what, I'm going to start doing it. And I don't know. It's been releasing a lot of emotions as it tends to do.

And one of these nights I was here and just feeling like a failure, feeling like all like regret and all these things coming up. You know, about the type of father I've been, you know, the type of husband I've been over the years and feeling a lot of regret to it and feeling a lot of fear about what's coming next to my life kind of deal.

And, I mean, maybe the size and what we want to talk about a little bit, but I'm doing this ancestor practice where I'm kind of talking to the ancestors and there's a feeling I'm getting him like, do I just sound like a spoiled? rich white person, like affluent, like crying me a fucking river. They're you in your air conditioned apartment, sipping on wine, smoking weed, playing guitar. What a rough life. Yeah. So I was almost like, then shaming myself.

Maybe I was getting some ancestor shaming about, well, I know I used to walk. I pulled hand carts across this country and you're worried about like, you know. that, like honestly, even that is you finding something to shame yourself about, right? Like not to point that out, but like even that is that comparative thing of like, well, my ancestors could do it, but they wanted to do it. They selected doing it.

And by the way, as much of the hardship and all the like pioneer stories and the like, all the things that we talk about, an extended like camping trip, where you're singing songs every night and like having campfires and then hiking the next day out to find like this adventurous new land where you don't owe anybody money and you can set up like the kind of life that you want to have. There's also like a, like a romance to that too, right?

Like there's also like, like as much as we talk about that being hardship and muck and mire and shit, which it was, there's also like, you know, there's times when you're sitting around a campfire, you're out on like an extended hike or a or a river trip where you're like, you know, you're on a river trip and you're thinking about Oregon Trail where it was like, man, do you attempt to afford the river or do you, do you cock the wagon and float it across?

It's like, man, either one of those kind of sound bad ass. Like they sound like cool old timey pioneer stories. Like then they had a campfire. it's like, you've got to play like the real life version of Oregon Trail. Like, you know, we call that, we call that a retreat nowadays. We're going on a wilderness retreat, you know?

Yeah, man, when we were in Hawaii, we went to this place where we had to hike to a spot, then much to our host's surprise, the place where you kind of cross to go over this cool waterfall area was completely flooded, river had run wild, and there was just no way to cross unless we... unless we like swam across and the river was deeper than me. So I couldn't touch at that point.

And so what we decided was because it was kind of strong and there was a river, was a down river, there was also a waterfall. And so the decision that we made as a group was that I would swim everyone across one by one. And then I would also, like all the kids, do you know what I mean? And then, and the wives actually. And then I'll also, Like all of our gear, all of our lunch stuff, picnic things, all the, you know, pack.

Like I would just swim all that stuff back and forth, back and forth to the point where dude, after the time we got, by the time we got done with this, I was, I was exhausted. Like I was exhausted from doing that.

And we were making jokes about, you know, the, you know, the old pioneer story about those, those dudes that carried everybody across the name frozen died and everybody was like, wow, they're They're calling an election is made sure and they're going straight to the top of the celestial kingdom. that kind of like we were joking about that kind of stuff. Cause I was just like so beat from swimming everybody across.

Everybody's like, yeah, Doug. But having said all that, I was also like, that was one of the more, that was the funnest things I've ever done. Like I was like, yay me. Like it was fun. It was fun swimming those kids across the river and being like, and being like of use for once in my goddamn life. You know what I mean? Dude, this is gonna sound, maybe this is gonna sound weird, but you saying it was their choice to do that.

Like that was, it, it unlocked something in me. I, I'm, I was so used to hearing about pioneer stories growing up that I forgot that they chose to do it. And I know, and I know maybe there's a part of me that intuitively knew that they were being brainwashed as well, you know, but they still consciously, I mean, you know, the conscious decision, whether there was unconscious, whatever going on was that we are. I'm off to Zion. I'm off to build.

Yeah. sang about it and should we die before our journeys through happy day all as well, right? Like that was the lyrics. They were doing it on purpose. They were out there by their own free will and choice for the most part. Like somebody could come in here and be like, know, actually -ism. Like somebody could come in and be like, what about -ism? And be like, wow. The children didn't have a choice and there was a lot of rampant patriarchy. Okay, probably. get it. That probably was true.

But I don't know, man. think that like all the stories I heard were that the women were like kind of leading the charge and like even the men who like died off or abandoned or ran off with the native Americans, like the women were like, we're still going to Zion dog. Like we're still marching. It was like, okay. Well, they're choosing these hardships. I mean, they could have stayed in Missouri. They could have stayed in Ireland and England and Scandinavia.

Yeah. in Ohio. They had options, All right, that helps me reframe some stuff. And by the way, when I said that like, I actually don't feel like they were shaming me. I think in that experience, I think I was shaming myself about that. Like I got my own in my own head about minimalizing my, you know, the trauma minimalizing we can do, you know? Hold on, we need to clarify something. I wasn't saying the ancestors were shaming you. I was saying that you were shaming yourself.

So I'm just reiterating that because I think I may have come across as saying that, but it actually turned out to be a really beautiful night where I feel like they were relating to the archetypal feelings I was feeling and being like, yeah, dog, I felt those too. I get it, I get it. And no, and I don't feel like you did. feel like I wanted to clarify what I said because I... I think it's important to clarify that the dead know their stuff. Some know it more than others, yeah.

Yeah, mean, the dead. I mean, let's, should we talk about the dead? You want to get into? Yeah, let's talk about the dead. wanna get into my dream or how you wanna start with this? wanna... Does that work? Yeah, let's go. Yeah. Okay, should I just read it? thing with me a couple of days ago and I kind of ran with it. was like, it just was, it was actually might've been the day after I'd had this experience of chatting with my ancestors and whatever. what, yeah. Do you want to just read it?

How do you want to do it? I think it's the day after. Yeah. it was the, so I dreamt about it that night that you had that experience. That I had this experience. -huh. We're just adorable, man. We're synced up. Our periods are synced up, man, for sure. Yeah. I actually wonder how many times we've masturbated at the same time and not known about it. I mean, I would say the odds are pretty good with the frequency with which you and I masturbated. I would say that we're probably synced up.

You know, that would be fun when we're in the next phase of whatever and we get to look back on our lives and be like, okay, how many times were we synced up on this? Yeah. Yeah. And also what was the inspiration for it? Did we ever like have like, like in the Venn diagram of dude, here's what I want to know about in the, the, in the vast Venn diagram of everyone masturbating. I want to know when it was at the same time and about the same sort of like, like inspiration. Does that make sense?

Yeah, like, is there like a collective surge where all of a sudden, you know, Beyonce is like the person of choice, like at the same time, same place for people like all across the globe, you know, kind of deal. all these like heat, like the heat map. Like you see this global like little red spots that are like blinking.

And it's like, wow, there was like 2 .4 million people masturbating about Beyonce at 714 PM last night, know, Greenwich Mean Time or whatever. It's like, wow, we all did it. Yeah. it'd be even cooler if that doesn't like sync up to like some halftime performance at a Super Bowl or something. It's just random. It's just like a random happening where all of a people are like, wow, I'm all of a sudden wanting to touch myself and think of Beyonce, you know?

but then you overlay it since we're just making up like this fucking... Honestly, this is like we're at EFY right now making up God's powers, right? That's what we're doing right now. yeah, in the afterlife you go and you watch the movie of your life and it's about two hours long and you get to see your other friends. Like we're just making this shit up.

So as long as we're making shit up, you can overlay with this heat map, you can overlay like mood spikes for like... positive and negative that Beyonce had that like line up with these times where like the collective was masturbating about her. it's like, did we send something out energetically that like gave her a pep in her step or that made her feel like the weight of the world was on her?

Like, listen, I would like to know if like, if we all, you know, enough with this hands across America or the, you know, like sometimes in our world we'll do like, meditation, everyone at the same time is going to do this meditation and send out positive energy into the world for healing in the collective consciousness. What if also when there's a spike in all of us beating off about the same thing or flicking our bean about the same thing, that that person has like a spike of creativity?

Like, dude, what if Taylor Swift's Grammy winning albums, like they were all written during times of heightened creativity because everybody was beaten off to Taylor Swift at a certain time. I think we might have unlocked something here. Or when that was happening where they just curled up in the fetal position and like, I don't know why I'm crying so hard right now. even get out of bed.

just feel like there's like a big, huge like weight on me and just, that's what else cause everyone's jerking off or fingering themselves about you. It's it's a lot from there. the therapy chair and they're like, I don't know how to describe it, but I feel like I'm being fucked simultaneously by like 2 million people. I don't know. I know that's a weird thing to say you're saying to the therapist. Like, I know that sounds weird and like kind of narcissistic, but it's like, I don't know.

just, I feel like there's a lot of people intensely thinking about me. You're not paranoid. You're sexy. Like paranoia, what if paranoia is this completely misunderstood concept where it's like when you're feeling paranoid, it's because like there's a spike in the number of people that are masturbating about you. It's like, instead of it being like, a goose walked over your grave and you're, what is that a thing? goose walked over. It depends on the color of the goose.

Was it a black goose or what? No, it might be. That's first time I've heard of the goose walk over your grave. I honestly thought that that's what the goosebumps meant. Was that like a goose walked over your grave? maybe I, it could be, and I'm just out of the loop. I mean, do we need to back check this right now?

regardless of if that's a thing, I'm choosing to believe that instead of a goose walking over your grave when you get goosebumps, you get goosebumps because a lot of people just thought about you and touched their private parts. things. you know what, can't confirm or deny that. just, I'm thinking I'm just, I think I'm convinced though that, I mean, we were talking about, we're all connected. That's all, there's all connection going on here.

Mike, the world is filled with people just making up beliefs, like just making up like, here's a thing that happened and that's why. Like that's everything from Christianity to tarot to the Zodiac. Like it's all just us trying to make shit up and believe it, right? So why can't I make that up? Why can't you and I just be like, okay, here's what happens. There are spikes on a global scale. energetically when everyone or like more people than normal are masturbating about a certain person.

It's like, okay, this is, and we can map it out probably like, hey, this is what, if one person is masturbating about you, you'll probably feel this. You'll probably feel a little like butterfly in your belly. When you get up to like dozens of people, then it gets a little, you know, it's like, and then we'd have to just ask, I mean, we'd really have to get Taylor Swift and like Beyonce, like some big people involved in this research to know what it's like when you have millions, you know.

Like we think that we can move the needle by saying like, my thoughts and prayers go out to so -and -so.

What if we said my orgasms and moans go out to somebody? you know, someone's having a rough time right now. You know, they've been sad and their grandma died, you know, whatever. That's like, man, well, my moans and orgasms go out to them. It's like, that's gonna be the thing that'll like. I will spill my seat on their behalf. You know what? Just for that person in particular, I'm going to rub one out tonight just to try to make them feel a little bit better.

It's like, you know in Dune how spitting is a sign of reverence? It's like that. It's like, yeah, okay. I'll fill up a... Okay. I'll tap into my internal reservoirs. I'll tap into my internal stores to share them with you. Man, it's will deplete my internal stores. right. That's right. Well, temporarily deplete for the most part, they fill back up. Do you know what I mean? But they fill back up.

I mean, it's still like an actual physical manifestation of like a, of like a, an intense thinking about someone like thoughts and prayers can be that as well for sure. Like you can sit there and be like really thinking about someone and praying about him and saying like, Hey, you know, God sent out a, send out the bass signal for so -and -so. They just had a rough day. Great. That's awesome and more power to people. Put me on every prayer roll that you can come up with.

But also if you don't mind, throw me into your masturbation routine once in a while. Like send me out, send me out on a fucking thought and prayer. And roll an orgasm. you know, I mean, I think we're tapping into something that I don't know much about. And maybe we should get a guest to come and talk to us about it is sex magic, because we've really talked about sex magic, but it's a deal. And people use their orgasms and their intentions to manifest and to change the they do that.

And I just don't know much about it. But I know. I've even heard people talk and be like, sex magic is nothing to fuck with and it's pretty powerful and intense. I've never even looked up the term sex magic or found a book that's like, this book will tell you about sex magic. Same, why are we not, why are we not, why do we have, why don't we have a guest on, we should have a guest on to talk to us about sex magic. are we something like 180 episodes in and we haven't talked about sex magic, Mike.

And furthermore, honestly, maybe this is sex magic that we're talking about and you and I just think we're coming up with something. You know how once in a while that'll happen where you're like, dude, I have the very best business idea of all time. You're ready for this? It's like, what if people who are just driving their cars around anyway, could act as like a temporary taxi service and people could just go pick them up. And someone's like, you do me like Uber or Lyft.

And you're like, God damn it. yeah. idea, cars that run on electricity. And then people were like, you're too late, Well, yeah, so I bet there's a big like a portion of our listeners right now who are hearing it like, yeah, I when people are masturbating about you, you hit a buzzing and like, yeah, of course you do. Sex magic, You know, they're like, skip and they're going to go to listen to a real podcast. like these two dipshits.

Once again, they're venturing into territory that they know nothing about and thinking that they invented it, thinking they made it up. I mean, what else do expect from two white boys? Of course we're going to try to pretend like we invented everything. You know, Mike, I've recently with my music, I've been kind of getting a little bit, you know, creative and kind of, you know, a little experimental. I've been using like C, G, E minor and D. I don't know. I don't know.

We'll see what happens from it, but you know, trying to like... in that order? No one's ever done it in that order before. god man, how did we even get talking about this? I don't know, I'm loving it though, but let's get to your dream. just like a hard right turn into my like dream. I think you're right, dude. I think so too. You're usually the one that's better at the segues. I'm usually just like, okay, abruptly changing the subject. So I'm glad that we're on the same page this time.

Well, I could have made a sex magic joke about the ancestors, but you know, we can save that for later. I'll make it now. Here's a sex magic joke about the ancestors. Hey, knock knock. I'm sorry. It's the ancestors. Answers are soon. Is that how you do a knock -knock joke? What took you so long to answer the door? You're jerking off about us again? guess that's my friend's line. Mike, the pause between you not knowing to say the second part of it, like who's there basically, is giving me life.

Like you haven't heard a knock -knock joke for so long that you forgot how knock -knock jokes go, right? I like, when you said that, I'm like, where's the punch line? They're like, wait, no, there's something else. It was very slow motion. I had to remember what my next line and I had to yell at the ancestors to give me the next line. But I think they intentionally wanted me to pause. So that was part of the joke. I do have a pretty good knock -knock joke, but you've gotta start it. Knock out.

I've done this before. I forgot. so dumb, but you can, you can, you can do it sometimes. You know, can kind of, can kind of, you can kind of get people off guard once in a while with that stupid shit. Yeah. Okay. So I had this dream the same night that Mike was having the, sort of like the issue thinking about his ancestors, feeling like he's got a cozy, comfy life feeling like sort of like, what have I done with myself?

So, I'm going be, I'm going to stumble a little bit reading this because I use names and so I'm going to try to not use names. Okay. Okay, yeah. So, my wife's dead grandmother is back to life for one last birthday party for her. As a gift, the family has asked me to sing one of my songs, but they want me to change the last line in the song from, see him again to, quote, see him today. And it's about my wife's grandpa who's been dead for 30 years.

I feel uncomfortable because I don't know which of my songs they are talking about. And I also don't know that after 30 years, her dead grandpa wants to see her again. Or I guess her dead husband wants to see her again. I felt like it was all very presumptuous of the dead. Like in the dream, I felt like not even dying can get you away from everyone else's expectations and obligations. through that last line.

trying to say where to go from here, but like, Well, let's go with this because we're talking about the dead, we're talking about ancestors. And the reason why, like, I really love this stream from you is because I think we do make so many assumptions about the dead. and we, we maintain an image of them as well. and we usually put them on a pedestal. Like someone, someone dies and it's like, okay, now we don't talk shit about that person anymore.

Usually, or something, you know, it's like we speak in hushed tones. We have an image of them. Usually around, we remember them, you know, like I remember my grandma and my grandpa when they were my grandma and grandpa and they were old, you know, And I like that about the presumptions we make. It's just spinning. There's something there that's like, when you read the line, when you shared the dream with me and I read that line. I'm just gonna have a hard time articulating.

know that is making podcasting, but like. like that maybe, because you were articulating it to me and blowing my mind, right? But so I'll just say that like, I think that beyond, even beyond sort of like, like religious people, like even beyond organized religion, people who have any sort of belief in like life after death or that like, or that like individualism exists. on the other side of death, right?

Because there is that belief, like there is that thing of like, we all just sort of like are poured back into that great ocean of souls and we all mix and become one and we are part of the same collective consciousness type of thing. But like for people who believe in like a perpetuating of individuality beyond the veil. Mm Like there's this belief that on our death beds, dude, you know what it is? It's fucking, you know, Les Miserables? What a fuck.

You know at the end of Les Miserables when Jean Valjean's dying and he's singing to Cosette and Marius and then suddenly here comes Fantine and Eponine and they're like, come with me where chains will never bind you. Like they're coming to take him.

Like, Fantine's been dead for 30 years. And she's coming to be a John Valjean. Thanks for taking care of my kid from the time she was six. I've been waiting around in heaven and now I'm being, I'm being asked to come usher you into heaven. Like, like we have this belief that like after death, the dead, the dead still have all these goddamn jobs to do. Like they all got to go do their, Ooh, what a, what a cool election. I've been an angel and I got to go. We talked about it in the last episode.

Like, I got to go talk to Joseph Smith about the golden plates or. I got to go greet my my wife, who's been living on Earth without me for 30 some years. I got to go like bring her back to the heaven and be like, we can get back to being married for eternity now if you want. And I do want to still be in love. Like it's just this weird concept that we we have an expectation of the dead. Like we have we we're giving the dead jobs to do.

The dead, the dead have to bend to our will as as like these mortal finite human beings because of how fucking terrified we are of death. So then we have to give the dead people like little shores. you just nailed it for me. That's what I was spinning around that, and it ties into, the, my dissertation work, which is about the rest of reciprocity of it. and how we treat the dead. It's like, it's still, they're still in service to us at that point.

It's like, okay, they're in service to the living. And they must be, it feels very egotistical and very much like, okay. And also trapping them in a box about like what continuation after this means or looks like. mean, look at the Mormon thing of like families can be together forever is one of the most silliest notions of, it's silly because it's like, what are you even picturing? Like, what do you even, what is your vision of eternity with families together forever? Because.

Our families are changing right now. The concept, the structure of our family changes. mean, anyone who's lived a certain age knows that all of a sudden, like you're at a certain stage of life with your cousins. And then all of a sudden, like 10 years go by and you have to rent out, you have to go have the family party. It becomes a family reunion. becomes like, you know, it's like, and the jump happens quickly. just, it's expla, especially in big Mormon families, it jumps really quickly.

yeah, dude. and so let me just hide it in a bit. I, and I know I've talked about in the podcast before, but I'm doing my dissertation on imaginal work with ancestors and, and a couple of things I want to just kind of like lay the groundwork for it's. There's two things I think that are important with it that are with in depth psychology. One is that. this notion of psychic reality that we've talked about a lot before in the podcast, but I'll just reiterate it.

It's that the only thing we can know is that we are having a psychic experience, whether we're awake, whether we're dreaming. Right now I am experiencing things. I'm experiencing Doug on a screen. experiencing, you know, I can touch my microphone here. can, it feels physical to me because that's my perception of physical reality. But whether I'm experiencing that or I go to sleep and then have a dream of Doug. And dreams can also feel very physical too.

We've all those dreams have very physical symptoms or very physical. it has a physicality to it. Now it might not be a little less physical than like the material reality that we experience, but basically it's just like, look, if I had an experience in a dream and it changed my life or I experienced certain emotions. or I went through my day today and it had some events happen that changed my life or I experienced certain emotions, it's still a psychic reality.

And maybe we're putting too much weight on the material reality and ignoring the imaginal where even more transformation can take place. And then at some level, maybe we're over literalizing this material reality when really the actual reality is all. metaphorical. So maybe the dream world is actually more of actual reality and this is like a temporary literal kind of thing we do but then eventually we return back to a metaphorical kind of realm.

Yeah, it's funny that you, I love that you phrased it as we, we, we as the living try to bend, like we, try to make the dead bend to our will. Right. Like it occurred to me when you said, I mean, we've talked, it's, we've talked ad nauseum about like the concept of eternity and the concept of like, you know, that families can be together forever thing. I love that you said, what do you even mean by that? Right.

Because there's, there's that, there's that thing of like, One of the more heartbreaking things is that thing where it's like, you can't even make heads or tails of it. Like you can't make sense of it and it's just like devastating when like a baby dies. It's the fucking worst thing that I can think of, right? It's just like a baby dying or like a stillbirth or a miscarriage and just all this kind of stuff.

And then that thing that you hear about where it's like, Well, I know I'll get to hold him in my arms again. I know I'll get to raise that baby. I don't know what of that is actual Mormon doctrine versus what of that is just like finding ways to comfort and placate those who are in like, in like just inconsolable grief, right? Mm But even that is an attempt to bend the will of the dead to the will of the living. Because it's like, okay, families can be together forever.

And now you got these like, God knows how many infants and kids and they're in a resurrected, some kind of temporary, like, and do they have to go through puberty and do they grow and do get, like, do they have hair on their ball? what happens with these that are being raised in eternity. What happens with these kids that were like abused by their parents and just like, come join our church. Cause you can be together with your family together forever. And they're like, whoa, gross.

Why would I ever want to do that? Like it's, I don't know, man. Like this kind of stuff, it's like, nobody wants to, like, I would love to, I would love to get these answers. Like I would love to sit and talk to like my mom, like somebody who's like super duper devout and just be like, What about this stuff? But that's, but it's so egregious for me to say that stuff and offensive and, and maybe has a, maybe even has like a, a slight twang of, of, of condescending.

And I don't mean for it to be at all. I would love to hear the answers to these questions, but it's just like, dude, you go back to the, you know, on our mission, we were trained how to answer the questions about why do bad things happen to good people. And the answers are insufficient and not, and they just don't add up. Dude, they don't add up. You know what I mean? So here we are trying to bend the will of the dead to the living.

And to hold onto a certain image, you know, it's like, want to, I want to keep my grandmother in the image that I remembered her as. I want, I want to keep her in a little box or a little snow globe, or I want to keep, you know, a dead child in that same image that I knew her, knew that person as. and even that keep families together forever. It's this desire for certainty and, say it's stability and like, permanence, I guess is the right word for it.

Like this desire for permanence when really, you know, the only thing that's like the only, like, what is it? The only change is the only constant is change. Well, if we're talking about a metaphorical reality, that is the thing like metaphor. It's it's that's the constant is that this is all shifting and morphing and changing in this. and so, with that, you know, since starting school, I've just been really drawn to this.

It all started right before that first ayahuasca ceremony when I felt I was doing that Kundalini yoga practice and I was dealing with a lot of emotions coming up and I'm like, I feel like a grandmother is hugging me right now. And then I was like, I feel like my grandmother is hugging me right now. And then that turned into an experience where I saw I had a vision of her in ayahuasca. And then later during school, I've had a lot of these imaginal encounters.

Now, when I say imaginal, again, what we're talking about, that blur of it's just as real. It's just imaginal in that it's not physical. And so the research I want to do, which is embedded in the structure of depth psychology, you could actually do research like this because depth psychology recognizes the psychic reality of imaginal images, dream images and active imagination.

is like what happens if I, know, at first it was more, I wanted to do more research around like generational trauma and healing and how that can affect. But then I'm like, but that's still a goal in mind. That's still expecting, I'm going to the dead to heal my traumas. And lately it shifted. So it's more of to like, what happens if we just restore a relationship with the dead?

Like generations, like our answer, like we used to do, like cultures across, whatever civilization used to have people who would almost go to any culture across the globe. They would tend to the dead. They would worship the dead. They would revere the dead. They put offerings to the dead. There's a day of the dead holiday in, in like, like you go to Mexico, the day of the dead is like a whole thing, right? Yeah. And Samhain in Celtic. Romans, had Parentenalia.

You've been to Taiwan and the Eastern Pacific. Yeah. All of it is just focused about the dead. All of it, like the weird hybrid of Taoism and Buddhism that exists in Taiwan is focused like 90 per, I don't know, like it's focused on like offerings to the dead. And those offerings are in the sense of like remembrances for the dead. And maybe there's expectation. I don't know. I don't know enough about it, but like, But like a big part of that is like the dead are they're now on their journey.

Their journey continues. And I want to keep their memory alive here or I want to honor them wherever they are on the other side and provide them with, you know, whatever we can provide them with. And in their case, it's like let me burn money. You know what mean? Let me burn money to try to let them buy their way to the top of the fucking ladder or whatever it is. But like it's I don't know, man. We have such a I don't think it's true.

I don't think it's unique to... really anything like religious, I think it's becoming cultural and almost generational where we just don't have a great relationship with the concept of death. No I know I turned that a little bit from what you were talking about as far as like building a relationship with the ancestors, but like that's building your own thing with with with. Even that, like the ancestors, who knows what they want? They want to have a relationship.

Do they care about like maybe they want to go zip around the Andromeda galaxy. What do they know? You know what I mean? No, and it's a good question. And I do think that it ties into our year spot on it ties into our, our avoidance and our fear of death, especially in Western culture and our desire for permanence, even the way we bury our dead, we embalm them with, with all these fluids. We put them in like this elaborate coffin.

airtight, we seal them in these like oak fucking boxes that we pay $12 ,000 for. like, bro, we're burying that in the ground, you know? It's like buried treasure. Like go dig up all these coffins and resell them on the secondary market. And even then when they go on the ground, it's in a concrete slab to protect it from decay. We just don't have a good relationship with death.

So with this work and why it was so fascinating is because I was realizing more, it's like, what happens if we get back into relationship with the dead where it's reciprocal? where it's okay to go with them with expectations. can't like, you can't take that away, you know, but it's like, just like any relationship, there's a give and take. There's a back and forth. There's a learning. And what I'm finding, I mean, I'm just starting it. I haven't really even started the work yet.

I've just been writing the concept paper and getting it going. But my whole concept of what the term ancestors even means is shifting. Dude, I would love to hear what do you mean? Tell me more. Well, because I've had to have, yeah. to interrupt you, but the reason I'm asking is because you have a more rich experience, whether it be in meditative states or in dream states or in altered states of consciousness, you have an interactive relationship with ancestors.

Like your grandma and grandpa are showing up all the time and you got these, that shit never happens to me. Not once has that ever happened to me. Do you know what I mean? And so I'm so curious as to what do you mean by your relationship with the word ancestors is changing. Yeah, because I, that's a good question. it's.

I think initially in starting the work, I had that very kind of limited perspective. and my grandma comes in this form or like she's still existing somewhere, but I still have this image of her as my grandmother. And I do like, I see it as so many different levels. It's so much wilder than I was expecting, I guess, right? where I've had those experiences where I felt like they've come to me in a certain form as my grandmother, right? And I can recognize her, there's a familiarity there.

Okay. Let me get to, I'm trying to decide if I can share this part here. Let me just fill into this for a second, but I think I can, and it can illustrate a point. So I'm talking about my grandmother. I was writing about her in this presentation I did to like set up my concept paper and. Okay. Yeah. Let me tell this story. When I was, when I was doing a different paper, it was like a mini concept paper. This was like a year and a half ago.

I was doing this method of research called organic inquiry, which is all about like active med active imagination. And you, you go and you document the change and, and as part of this method of organic inquiry, they have you invite the muse of your research. And I did, and that's when I wrote that Nightingale song. Cause I'd had that dream about that la dee da da da da da da da, but didn't have words to it.

And then all of a sudden, and this was, I don't know if I, mean, maybe I'd had some cannabis, maybe I don't know. It's hard to know which nights I've had a cannabis or not, but like, wasn't, I wasn't, this wasn't a mushroom experience or something. It was deep in, but it was just a very vivid image of this woman who would be like, was beautiful and then terrifying. was like death, but life.

And when I met her, was like, you know, you have, when you fill the muse of a song, like whether your Goldberry song or the muse arrives and all of a sudden it's like, the music flows, the words flow. And it feels like they're coming from an external source. Immediately the words of that song came through and I'm like, I found the muse of my research. now when I was presenting this in my presentation a few weeks ago, I didn't tell that story.

But I told about my grandmother inspiring me to kickstarting this ancestor work. And later, you know, as we do in these, residential is when you're going with a bunch of people who are into depth psychology and dreams, you know, someone was giving me a card reading. And it was this type of reading. was so cool. It was like these weird cards. I'll have these like, it was almost like a Rorschach. Is that what they call those blots? Yeah. Of like these images. And she was just telling me what.

came, basically connected the dots that, my grandmother and that nightingale, because I was wondering why I didn't write about her. I'm like, but I did write about her. I feel like they are the same being. And this, this one being who comes, who's come to me in this image of a nightingale and this, and I sense a deeper, more like she's living, a lot more lifetimes also was my grandmother.

One of her many existences in whatever galaxies and this and that, and one of her existences on earth was in the form of my grandmother. Dude, that's so cool. That is so cool. Yeah. And so you start getting the thing where you get different levels of, I do feel like I've had experiences where for whatever reason, a dead person is still very tied to this realm and to their life they lived in that incarnation. And they can't let go. They can't pass to the other side quite yet.

And so they are very much, like to your point about Do they even care? know, I think some care a lot. And then you get some who care, who have more perspective, who are at more like the peaceful part right now and they're wherever they're on in their next phase. But they still care about their lineage, what's going on. They still care. They're still like facilitating something. And then I've had those types of ancestors come and they're like, dog, like. What are you even worried about, man?

This whole, this whole fucking thing is just a fart in the wind. And you're not even going to, as much as you care about this and that and that eventually it's like, you, you're not even going to remember this stream at one point or then you might. it's like, you know, and so you get these different levels of existence. And if reality is really this wild, which I feel like when we've all had.

You and I have had certain psychedelic experiences, but if anyone's done a psychedelic dose where big enough, like an ayahuasca experience or like not microdosing, but you've done enough to like dissolve the ego, you kind of go to this space of like, consciousness is keeps existing and it's wild. it's like, kind of get out, step outside of space and time. Now, whether that's just you going into your right hemisphere of your brain, right?

Or rather you're actually going into, it has that feeling of stepping out and gaining this perspective of like this life is just a blip. And so if consciousness really does go on and continue in this, of course, this person who I feel like is my grandmother is also a different being and has lived so many, probably lived lives on other dimensions, realities, galaxies, this and that. And so it's like, it gets really wild.

Man, I'm just as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about the work for the dead. Like it within the concept of Mormonism. I don't know. I'm kind of waffling back and forth on wanting to like honor that versus wanting to versus wanting to like maybe almost insult that because I think you can do both. Yeah. we, think as humans, that's where we exist, is that nothing is one thing, but nothing is everything. I say that all the time, right? Nothing is everything. It's the sacred and profane.

Yeah, but I think that's the problem that I have. That exact thing is the problem that I have with the concept of temples because of the lack of profane. Like death is gross and dirty and icky and smelly and who's to say that beyond death is not those things? But you go to a temple and it's just like, it's so sterilized and weird and so... methodical and robotic and there's no remembrance of the dead. There's just like this like old man reading from a card and insert name here type of thing.

As if the dead are just sitting there waiting for this one thing to happen. They got access to time and space and they're waiting for some smelly fucking teenager to go in and get baptized. Like that's so weird to me. It's such an interesting thing. It's such a check the box, fast food, Americanized version of ancestor work. And so while on some level, I feel like there's a beauty to it.

There's a beauty to go walking into a family history library and seeing someone weep because they've made some connection or they've connected with some ancestor or some story that resonates with their own. And they feel like they found a piece of them. One of the cool quotes of Carl Jung that I love, I mean, The red book, so Carl Jung's red book is something he wrote when he was going, he almost had like a, it was his experience with this act of imagination.

And at the time, yeah, like he thought he was going through a psychosis. mean, you know, almost, and yeah, he almost didn't come back from it because if he was this, it was like, you know, in true, like, like he was a Western man who started experiencing, like going in and experiencing the psyche as a shaman would, but didn't have all the. training that shamans typically go through in indigenous cultures, right?

So he was losing his mind, but a lot of it was, you know, in someone was making a comment that he was opening the mouth of the dead with that book. And it's pretty recent. I think it was only published in, like he wrote it, you know, a hundred so years ago, but it was only published as the red book, like 10, 15 years ago. And so we've, yeah, we've only had access to it for a short amount of time, like 2006, maybe 2010, something like that was when it was finally published.

And, there is a commentary in the red book where they talk about that part of that, like he encounters the dead and they even refer to it as he's opening the mouth of the dead with that book. But in there, he has his quote about how the dead are looking greedily through our eyes, trying to tie up the loose ends of their like unlived lives kind of dough. And I think there's an aspect of that, right? There's an aspect of like, we are all like, there's this.

Other quote from James Hillman, who's like, imagine having your eight great grandparents in a room and around a table together.

Would they even be able to speak the same language? Would they like the same food? Would they get along? And those inconsistencies live in our psyche. we're, you know, we, it's not just like our, you know, think of like, I got this from my mom. I got this from my dad. I got this from how we talk about that. Like what we inherited from each of our two parents. Well, what if we go eight? What if we go 16? What if we branch it out?

And so there's this aspect of, I forgot what we were talking about that brought this up for me, of tying up a loose end or like the dead animating us. You know, are like, are they living through us and are we, are we carrying a bunch of hungry ghosts with us all the time? and I think there is an element of that. think there is an element of like, them living through us and experiencing through us.

And then yet there's also the, we're talking about with Mormonism and making that connection because it's like, I see in their story an echo of mine and vice versa. see echoes of it. And I think that's why one ancestral work can be very beneficial for like psychological healing and healing these ancestral complexes and family curses that kind of go through and ripple through generational lines. But I also think just like that relationship is, I think it's the important part.

And I think that's what, I don't know. That's what I loved about your dream. And that's what I'm loving about what I'm doing. Dude, it's kind of it's kind of fucking with me that you're talking about eight great grandparents because like. Everything OK back there? it is your so just so those of you listening at home, Mike has some sort of like Alexa or hey Google that's in the background talking to him. So you heard that, you know, take it easy. I was like, it was one of the two.

I don't know what I did to trigger it. I'm at this sublease, know, with our separation, we just been running out of these different subleases and she's got, she's got all sorts of spies around here, Lexus and sometimes I'm wondering if some of these sublease people put in like a nanny cam. cams, you know, dude, I think that that's a thing in the Airbnb world and the VRBL world. think there's like, I think there's.

I, in fact, I think that that's actually a problem that's being cracked down on right now, that there are hidden cameras going on in that whole world. I lost my train of thought about what I was going to say just there. I guess just for me, I'm thinking about. Like you said, okay, if you were to get together with your eight great -grands, I don't know if I'm doing the math right on that, but that would be 257 people, right? Like me and my, and me and my grandparent, like my eighth greats.

eight generation. yeah. I thought. that's not including like my mom and dad, their mom and dads. Like that's just the eighth generation of grands, I think is 256. Okay, you're talking about the eighth, okay, yeah, eighth generation. I was talking about just great grandparents, eight of them. But the eighth generation is like. No. happened for me, Mike, is like, eight generations isn't that hard to kind of like think about.

If you think about like my grandma and then like my kids' grandkids, grandkids, that's not all that far. Like that's, mean, in the grand scheme of things, that's not all that far to think about. You know I mean? But it also is fucking with me to think about the the Quantity and you know, there's gonna be overlap. Of course, it's partly go you go back far enough It's not gonna be 256. It's probably gonna be like, you know, maybe 190 or something like that.

There's gonna be some weird shit going on Especially maybe in the Mormon world too, Yeah, so I don't know how I'm feeling about like there was also a part of my dream that I just wanted to ask you about because the whole thing about like them asking me to sing a song that's mine that I don't remember really really reeks of like having to give a speech in front of a class that you don't know that you don't remember you had to you know to

give a speech or showing up for a test that you forgot you had to take or something like that so I'm curious if that, because I'm trying to deal with some stuff in my life right here. and I, as long as we're talking about my dream, I kind of wanted to get some free therapy from you, you know, as far as that goes, like, what the does that usually come with it?

It seems it seems to me like that's a theme that happens of like, I had to give a test today and I, or I had to take a test today and I forgot, I didn't know I don't know what the subject matter is or something. Yeah, it's a big one. mean, I used to have that recurring dream of like having a final at school and I haven't studied for the final at all. I haven't been going to class with that same feeling, but it's that feeling of, I mean, it feels like a feeling of being unprepared for something.

Yeah, yeah, but I'm trying to I'm trying to identify what that could possibly like what's in my life right now that I'm feeling that way about, you know. I mean, it's hard for me to say with like, as far as like, because it feels like we've both been through a lot of changes, but you unconsciously picking up a change coming that you don't feel, you know, prepared for. So I think for the first time ever, think I want to take back, I think I want to cut something. Let's just cut that part.

Cut that part. Okay. I was wondering if it's getting to it. Yeah. Or. because I'm putting you on the spot and asking you to interpret my dream when it's like, typically you would say you would push that back onto me and be like, well, what are you? So it felt it felt staged just now to me. And. I don't want to go through, I don't want to like go through like. Trying to figure that out, you know what I mean? Yeah, I was was just wondering if it gets a little too personal with some of it.

Well, I mean, maybe it could it could be. just I felt like in my mind, I was trying to set you up for like a little bit of a like, look at Mike doing dream interpretation. You should let's do a plug for Mike's thing. You should reach out to him. Like that's what I was intentionally doing. And it it it came across that way. Like it can't it fell flat. And so I think that we just cut that out. What if we just keep it and talk about it following? I don't think it fell.

I think there's an element of like. because it was me being manipulative. That's why, because I was doing it not out of like, like naturally, let's keep talking about my dream. I was doing it in a way of like, what if we could transition this into like, hey, if you all are interested in discussing your dreams with Mike, contact Mike for dream analysis type of thing. And so I didn't do it with an actual sincere question of like, hey, Mike, let's talk more about my dream.

I know I'm dealing with what I'm dealing with as far as like that goes. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense what I'm saying? That makes sense. Yeah, was winning scott. Yeah. OK, winning scott number. of the discussion in and make me look like a fucking idiot. Like, we could do that. I'm okay with that. I would never want to make you look like fucking idiot. I do that on my own. just saying, I just, it felt empty and insincere the way I brought it up.

Yeah, we can talk about that later about why, like, cause it is a, cause it is a common dream thing, but the reason the whatever, what it's bringing up can be, could be very specific, you know? And so it's kind of like, cause it is a common dream motif. And I think there were the reasons why I would be having was happy. Anyway, anyway. Because you didn't want to share stuff about me that is... Well, it could get personal. Right. I understand what you were doing. I'm just coming clean.

I'm confessing to you what I was doing. Gotcha. So we'll cut. Or we just leave that whole conversation in. I'm okay looking like, hey, I'm still not getting it. Like I'm still trying to figure this shit out. whoa, dude, I thought you're... about it whether it cut or not. We'll talk about it after. That was so weird. I thought you froze. Dude, I thought you froze up. were in such thought for a second there that I was like, shit, Mike must have frozen up.

I do want to ask a question though about, or get to one part about the dream was this expectation thing at the very end. That last line, because I think it ties into what we're talking about. And I've had this experience with, and why I also like it being talking about the reciprocity or the reciprocal nature of it. Because just like we can. make expectations of the dead. I also think we can get into our mindset of we are to save the dead. We can get a savior complex with it.

Yeah, well, mean, geez, that's Baptist. mean, that's the whole endowments and work for the dead and all that kind of stuff, right? Like we're doing the work here on Earth to like act as saviors to the dead. Yeah, mean, that's what we learned as Mormons is like, our greatest responsibility is to the dead and like the salvation of the dead. mean, was one of the three, now that think there's four missions of the church or whatever, even though I don't think they talk about it.

A while ago, I think they've stopped talking about it, but a while, like 10 years ago or something, they added a fourth mission of the church, which was about caring for the poor and needy. He dropped it. I don't know what they're talking about. like, that's a great one. I love that one because what is it? It's like Perfect the Saints. Spread the gospel. Yes, spread the gospel, preach the gospel, perfect the saints, redeem the dead, we're the three.

And, I don't know if they dropped it, I just not emphasize them, but they added a mission. when I was going through like my faith crisis part, I'm like, I actually liked that mission. I, you know, good on them. And then I don't know if they bring it. I don't know if they even talk about it anymore. but I do, because I think it talks about this weight and expectation.

And I think, That's why I mean, I think this can be just like something to tie into life in general, with our kids or places where we feel like this burden of expectation to save or to care or to support people when. I think it's just perpetuating a savior complex. Well, and I have that, you you and I have talked. What's that? Yeah. Yeah, I have that in spades.

And it's like, I mean, I think that my dis like my disgust in the dream is reflective of some of the sort of like sort of self loathing that I'm going through, but also some of the pressure that I feel of like because it's not just one or the other for me. It's like I I do have a lot of, I do have like expectations of me and people that rely on me, but also I have a deep resentment towards that. Do you know what I mean?

So think that's coming up in some pretty deep ways in that short little dream that we talked about, you know? Yeah, and why I bring it up is with this, I think my, this ancestor work I'm talking about shifted when I stopped making it a mission. When I felt like it was like a, that I was saving my family line or saving the dead or like, it was my. breaking fucking cycles, like ancestral cycles and something like that.

yeah, when I made it less about that, or just didn't make it about that, and was like, how can I, I think that's a byproduct of it. Like, don't think it's so getting back to like supporting, you know, kids are filling obligation about that.

It's like, if you if you get into a relationship with the dead, I think a natural byproduct is yeah, you will be You'll be healing relationships, you'll be working through complexes, you'll be doing whatever, you'll be helping whatever aspect of their energy might be still trapped in certain form and isn't passing through to another phase of their journey. sure. That's there, but like, if you make it about that, there's a, there's a weight to it. There's a, it can get dark too.

It can get like really dark. I mean, you talk about, mean, we've all had ancestors that have done some dark shit and, and, and, and horrible tragic stories in all of our ancestral lines. mean, you go back far enough, like you don't have to go back very far probably to find a lot of. tragic, awful things that can get really dark. And so, anyway, I'm just saying. I'm just saying it's shifting. I think it's shifting my perspective on life a little bit of like.

Maybe I'm bringing the weight to things. Wow man, I mean Yeah. Obviously, that's obviously that's a true thing. Obviously, you saying that is true. And and I think anybody hearing that would be like, yeah, I don't know. But just the way that you had that we shared that or maybe even had that realization sort of hit me of like. Yeah, man, we talk about it and we we we write about it and we do all this stuff about it, but. It's not. anybody else's thing to deal with.

Like it's not the ancestors fault and it's not that you're stepping in front of the train to save the future and save the past and like you're not Marty McFly. Like we're not, are, none of us are Jesus or Marty McFly. You know what I mean? We just gotta like, we just gotta like. work it out with ourself, I think.

I know that that's like a repetitive concept here, but it's one that I've struggled to learn because I spent so many years learning that like I'm a problem, my existence is a problem, and it's my responsibility to not only fix me and perfect me, but also participate actively participate in the perfection of the Saints like you you you brought it up as far as like as a mission of the church I gotta be busy doing shit all the time in

order to be worthy of of whatever the next phase is you know what I mean and it's like okay man maybe I Mike I hate saying this I maybe I got to stop blaming the church for so much shit maybe I got a maybe it's the church's fault but it's my responsibility to take care of my own fucking thing, you know? I gotta deal with it. I gotta deal with it. You know what though? was thinking this other, maybe this is, cause in time, even tying it into the podcast, right?

I think my energy on the podcast has changed. I was feeling a tremendous burden of it two years ago. Cause I thought I was like, yeah, I'm doing it to help people to do this. It was like, that was the mission of it is like to create a podcast to help people and this and that, but when you do that, you're bringing a, it was a weight to it that I was like, couldn't carry anymore and, and didn't need to carry. Like people, people don't need saviors.

I don't need to be their savior and they don't need them. They, they don't need it. and one of the other things I was thinking, this was just two nights ago, man, when I was playing that song was like California beats. And then I turned to the Salt Lake city beats. And then at the end, when I was just messing around with lyrics, it was turning, it felt like almost like a, it was like turning to like a revolution type thing where it's like people going on the streets and like with pick.

I was getting this image of people with pitchfork. pitchforks and torches surrounding the Salt Lake City Temple. I was going to give them damn, that's a cool image. like, because I've always thought like, okay, I left the church 10 years ago. And by the way, in three days will be my 10 year anniversary from walking away from the church.

I figured it out the other night at 8 17 2014 was that when I walked in, not when I lost my faith, but when I walked in and said, I'm not going to church anymore. Whoa, dude, you know the specific date too. Yeah, I looked it up. So in three, so 10 years, right? Well, thank you. And the first five years, I felt like I was processing, I was listening to all the Mormon stories stuff and Mormon expression, I was processing it. And then I felt like I was at a space where I was ready to let it go.

And then we did mushrooms. Then all of a sudden I started Mormon's and Mushrooms podcast and then I'm back in this world. And I was kind of thinking, I kind of got sucked back in, right? But I was ready to let it go. But no, man. I think I created a fucking podcast because I still needed to process shit. like, wasn't, like, it was, was one thing to listen to John DeLinn and John Larson and everyone, but I needed to unpack that shit. And I needed to, you know why?

Because it meant everything to me. For 30 years of my life, it meant more to me than my kids, my wife, my family. It meant more to me. It, it meant, it meant everything to me. Yeah, it was eternity. It was your everything. Because all those other parts, like literally I'm talking about like parts, like people playing a part, right? Your kids, your spouse, your family, all those other parts don't matter if the church part falls away. that is a, of course we're still processing that shit, dude.

Yeah. Wow, that's hitting me real big. Wow, of course we're still processing. And so maybe I needed to start a Mormons on Mushrooms podcast to keep processing it for me because it, I fucking cared and I cared hard. I cared deep. And maybe I needed to own that in myself that I've needed the podcast too. A -hoh. Stop it there. Did you want me to say anything else? I thought that was beautiful. No.