Winter Fuel Payment and Using Cash

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello. Don't be sad that August is over. Be happy that Moneybox is back again. In today's podcast, the record levels of cash we're paying in and taking out at the post office. And the parents set to save thousands as the new funded childcare hours come in this week. But first, a story you have been contacting us about a lot over summer. The loss of the winter fuel payments for pensioners in England and Wales.

The annual payment is worth £200 to £300 a year, depends on your age, and it had been universal, but from this winter it will be restricted to pensioners receiving pension credit or other means-tested benefits. Now the reason for means-testing it... this way is quite simple it's to save the treasury money about one and a half billion pounds each year and that's to plug what it says is a 22 billion pound black hole left by the previous conservative government well a lot of you have

emailed moneyboxatbbc.co.uk with some pretty strong opinions. Roger has worked out his energy bills will rise by almost a third this year. and asks, why am I being expected to dig the government out of a financial black hole? While Susan says she's horrified to lose the extra help. But listener Paul emailed to say he and his wife are completely content to not get the winter fuel payment.

I've been speaking to Joseph and also to Libby. They're both pensioners and they both have health conditions, which makes staying warm important. Libby has a rare form of motor neurone disease and the cold increases her risk of falls and fractures. If I get cold, that risk of falling increases manyfold. And it affects how I speak, how I can hold things.

And if I put on too many layers of clothing, that then restricts my movement. Recently, I've just completed a benefit check. I'm only just a few pounds over that limit. Do you know how much more you're earning? How does that make you feel? That's a frustratingly small number. To be quite honest, I'm sick as a pig because, you know, I've paid into everything. I've worked full-time on my working life. I've paid the full stamp to get my pension, and here I am finding.

But I'm being penalised for having worked and got my private pension, which places me that much over the threshold. You know, I don't expect to travel the world on my pension, but to be able to... afford to pay my bills and have a reasonable standard of living isn't really such a high expectation I don't think I've effectively ended up with very very very small

private pension, but that brings me above the thresholds. I'm on about 16,000 a year, including my state pension. I live in an old Victorian house. We have tried to do some... insulation with it, but it's not the best. I suffer from sarcoidosis, which is An autoimmune condition which affects the chest particularly produces lots of coughing and so on. It mimics TB. Cold weather really aggravates it and already, you know, I've been monitoring the meter last winter and so on very closely.

my expenditure on gas and electricity. I'm trying to be as careful as possible. Obviously dreading the prospect of a cold winter. I'm really worried with the fuel prices going up twice, first in October, then again in January. It's going to be really, really bad, I think. What about you, Libby? What does the coming winter bring for you?

actually not being able to breathe. If you live in a cold environment, you actually can't breathe properly. I don't know if Joseph experiences that. You can't draw your breath adequately. And you're actually then drawing in cold air, which impacts your lungs and their muscles. I am very fearful. Joseph and Libby there. Well, I'm joined now by Rachel Walker from Policy and Practice, which is a social policy and software analytics company. Rachel, good afternoon.

Good afternoon. Now, to qualify for the payments now, you have to be retirement age and receiving pension credit or universal credit, income support, income-based job seekers allowance or income-related employment and support allowance. most qualifying pensioners it's going to be pension credit. There will though inevitably be a lot of people like Joseph and Libby who just miss out.

Yeah, absolutely. And Libby puts it very well in terms of the frustration that she feels living on the margins of that. Our research found around 130,000 people miss out on pension credit by up to £500 a year, which very similar to Libby is around. £9.60 a week. trade-offs with any welfare policy that is means tested. And the line needs to be drawn somewhere in order to means test something. And wherever we do draw that line, we will always find people on the margins or just missing out.

Now, that doesn't mean to say that there aren't any benefits available to people who are just short of the pension credit threshold. And there are other benefits that people can claim. And we would urge anybody to do a benefit assessment check, which it sounds like Libby has done.

on one of the benefit calculators on .gov.uk. OK, well, we also know a lot of people who do qualify will also miss out. The government says an estimated 880,000 people who could claim pension credit simply don't. Why is that? Yeah, it's around 880,000, and it's around 2 billion in unclaimed pension credit a year. So it's part of a wider issue, around 23 billion, according to our research, that's missing from the welfare state for people not claiming.

The biggest reason that people don't claim is shame and stigma. It's something we've been dealing with in welfare policies for hundreds of years at this point. Assume benefits are for other people, not for them. And they also get worried about falling foul of quite a complex system. So we know that the mental maths of working out eligibility for yourself can put people off, as well as the complexity of the forms that people need.

to fill in and the different schemes and eligibility criteria that they're faced with. We know that we do extensive work with local authorities around promoting pension credit to older people who are eligible. And one of the ways in which we've sort of combated some of this stigma and the mental maths issue is around...

around proactively identifying older people who are eligible by using data analytics and then informing them of their eligibility and how they can then get support to claim. Okay, because that's an important point, isn't it? Because the government is launching a pension.

credit awareness drive to try and boost take up and encourage pensioners to apply specifically to encourage them to apply before the 21st of december that's the last date where you can make a backdated claim and receive the winter fuel payment for this year but rachel There have been attempts to increase take-up of pension credit in the past. The number who fail to claim remains stubbornly high. Why doesn't it work? There are...

There are two versions of an awareness campaign for pension credit. One is speculative. So a bit like what the DWP are doing nationally this month around pension credit awareness is sort of... raising awareness around pension credits because we know lack of awareness is one of the main reasons that people don't claim. However, when we look at our proactive targeted campaigns, we get two to three times more people claiming.

So any new claims through to awareness raising is a win. However, you know, working with local authorities and identifying people proactively, we are finding that local trust. So we work in partnering with Age UK and local... authorities so people are more likely to respond to something from an institution

that they trust locally. And reaching out, yes, that has a different effect. Really, really briefly, Rachel, we had that email from Paul, who's happy for it to be means tested, says he doesn't need it. A lot of younger people who are also struggling with their bills might argue age doesn't automatically mean need.

They're absolutely right. And I would urge those people again to go on a benefits calculator that you could find through .gov.uk because there are schemes and social tariffs available to people of working age through things like universal credit.

News you can use. Rachel, thank you very much indeed. Rachel Walker from Policy and Practice. Well, the government told us it is committed to supporting pensioners, which is why it's protecting the triple lock. And it also said it's right to target support to those who need it most.

Another issue that you contact us about a lot is access to cash. It's become more and more difficult as thousands of bank branches have closed. But last month, more than £3.7 billion in cash was deposited or withdrawn by customers at... post office branches, that's a record amount. Moneybox reporter Dan Whitworth has been to a branch in North Lincolnshire to find out more.

Walking into this busy post office here in the pretty historic town of Barton-upon-Humber, they do all the usual stuff you'd expect in a place like this. We do stamps, we do parcels, letters, we do passports, driving licences. But as well as all that, they're seeing more and more customers who use it as a place to get this.

like hundreds of branches right across the uk this post office is seeing record amounts of cash being taken out and deposited by customers i've got hundred pound out i like cash I don't like cards at all, so I prefer me cash. I think it's easier. I'm a firm believer that cash is king. I've always used cash and don't really like using my card. I use my card for bigger patches, but for everyday, grosser. butcher, I always use cash.

Since 2015, more than 6,000 bank branches have closed. That's around 50 every month. Banking hubs where different banks operate all from the same place are coming. 70 are now up and running. expected by the end of the year but post offices are also playing a key role in ensuring people have access to cash

We offer the facility to withdraw the cash, deposit the cash and deposit cheques with us. Mary Wingate is the postmistress here. Now, how much they can withdraw is dependent on their bank card, but it can be up to £800 a day on certain banks. £500 with other banks. So why do you think more and more people are using cash? It's for the budgeting too. They know exactly what they've got and they can't overspend.

What they haven't got, they've got the cash and that's it. Why do you think more and more people are coming to the post office to either deposit cash or take it out? That's down to the lack of banks and they have to travel so far to be to the nearest bank and we're just on the doorstep. What's a sort of normal stereotypical amount?

And what are they using it for? Well, it can range anything from somebody just wanting £10 to be able to go to the local hairdressers to get the hair done, especially men. I was going to say, £10 for a woman, you'd be lucky. Exactly. ranging up to sort of £300, £400, and it's just budgeting for the weekly shopping and bills. John, you've just come in for some cash. Yeah, right.

How much have you taken and why have you got cash out? £50 I've taken out to go shopping with like I've done for the last, I don't know, 50 years or something. I mean, cash is still king in my book. I do have cards actually, cash cards and such like, but very rarely use them. Thank you. You can flash a card around not really knowing what you're doing. And you find it, so you find it easier to budget with cash. So cash in the pocket, you know where you are.

If you've had a night out in Lincoln or somewhere, in the morning you can wake up and see what you've done. But if you try and remember what you did with your card, there's no chance, because you can't remember what you've done anyway. John ending that report from Dan Whitworth, who does get to visit some lovely places. I'm joined now by Ross Borkitt, who's Banking Director at the Post Office. Ross, good afternoon. Good afternoon.

Explain this to me then, because we know many, many more people are paying by card, by contactless. UK Finance said there were 1.65 billion contactless card transactions in May, and that was up more than 3% on the year before. So is this... story more about filling a gap left by the banks than it is perhaps about any new trend for cash? It's a great question. I think there's a bit of a few different things going on. So you're absolutely right.

where we have communities that are losing or have lost a bank branch, we see in the local post offices quite a big increase in cash transactions, in particular around cash deposits, where those who still rely on cash or choose to use cash come in and make use of the convenient service that we offer through our post offices. But we've also seen in particular over the last 18 months an increase in people.

taking cash out with budgeting, as you just heard there. And I think particularly the cost of living crisis has been quite challenging for many people. being able to better control and manage their money for some people in cash, that is far, far easier to do. Now, I'm not suggesting there's going to be a massive reversal in the usage of cash. I think we're going to continue to see a trend of increased card and contactless. But it remains... are really important.

payment method for huge numbers of people across the country. That's interesting. It's a more nuanced picture than you might think. Access to cash, of course, is just one part of what people struggle with as banks close. Are you going to start offering more complex banking services through your branches? So our focus right now is about supporting cash. And as many people know, there is new regulations coming in on the 18th of September that will guarantee consumers.

free access to withdrawals and deposits within your local community and our postmasters are actually central to supporting banks in helping to meet those new obligations providing a really convenient local place to to get access to cash that is our immediate focus in making sure that that that is done and that support is there for people who need it but we are working closely with banks in other areas where there are more

banking type transactions um so banking hubs as you mentioned is a really good example of where we're working in partnership to bring community banking back into communities cash access have opened 70 um hubs it's a local postmaster that is typically running that hub and then you're getting a community banker come in to support um with with banking transactions Over time, there's an opportunity for us to do more as the need and demand is.

Okay. This record amount of cash is a good news story for the post office. It does come in a year where the horizon scandal has been making some pretty bad headlines. Do you think some people will find it difficult to trust you with their own personal finances?

It's been an incredibly tough year, as you say, and in particular for Postmasters, both current Postmasters and also in particular for those who suffered through the scandal. What we've seen in... our activity in branches this year is that we think a lot of consumers are differentiating between their view on the central post office.

and their relationship with their local post office and in particular with their local postmaster which typically are local leaders within that community and we've seen a really almost a strengthening of that relationship with the local with the local branch

We've continued to have about 10 million visits every single week into our branches. And as you've said, we've seen record levels of cash coming through. So I think that trust with that local post office has remained and potentially strengthened through this year. Ross Barkett, thank you.

you very much indeed now from monday eligible working parents of nine month olds in england will get 15 hours a week of funded term time child care you might remember the parents of two-year-olds already started getting that help back in april

To get the hours, parents need to register a government childcare account and they receive a code which they can give to their nursery or childminder. Different schemes operate in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Let's hear from one couple about to benefit. Hi my name is Frances and I'm a mum with a nine-month-old and I'm going back to work three days a week. My name's Paul and I have the same child. I'm currently working five days a week, but as of next week, drop to four.

So Gabe, our son, is going to go into nursery two days a week. Yep. For a free day. We'll pay for a day. And then... You'll have him a day and then me and grandparents and everything else. Obviously, we're very grateful for the 15 hours. It's really, really helpful for us. And I think it probably helped with the decision for me to definitely go back to work.

I probably was going to anyway. It's hard to know because we always knew we were going to get these 15 hours because it was announced while I was pregnant. Well, from a financial point of view, we knew, OK, this would be... much less of a hardship and thankfully it came in at the exact time that we needed it. Our nursery that we've decided on is £96 per day. That's like a full cost of a full day from 8am to 6pm and that does include nappies and food. I still think it's...

a huge amount of money. We can completely understand that people will make the choice that actually it's more cost effective, it makes more sense financially to not put your child into nursery. and then not work and which seems utterly bonkers the 15 hours is over a 38 week period rather than the 52 weeks which is a full year generally this 15 hours is going to equate to actually one day a week cost but obviously that is only one day so it the 15 hours is a bit misleading

I think that's probably missed from a lot of the marketing. Yeah. And even when you apply, it's sort of there in the T's and C's. It's not completely up front. Also... So the tax that you get on a higher salary plus then the cost of the nursery for that day, we worked out that actually you being off that one day a week.

we were going to be only £60 less off a month. Oh no! The whole nursery and school system is not set up for... to working parents in terms of the hours and like term times and stuff and how much holiday you get from an employee. definitely these two things are not aligned in any shape or form. But this is a step forward, right? This is definitely a step in the right direction. And hopefully we'll see more of this kind of government support, I think, fingers crossed, in the future. Hopefully.

baby Gabe there, ending that conversation. There had, of course, been warnings that parents would struggle to find places, but the government says it is confident about meeting demand. Let's talk to Neil Leach, who's CEO of the Early Years Alliance, which is an education

charity that supports over 14 000 nursery owners and child minders neil good afternoon good afternoon so for francis and paul those 15 hours are going to make a difference even if it's only in term time you must be seeing lots of parents celebrating what about child care providers.

Well, we are. I mean, I have to say, first of all, that listening to that clip, you could tell they were quite enthusiastic about having additional support. But the reality is that for providers, of course, we have pretty significant challenges. because these so-called free hours were offered against a backdrop of basically record closures of settings in the last few years. We've seen something like 25,000 childminders in the last decade come out of the sector.

And more importantly, actually, at this point in time, we have a recruitment and retention crisis that we have never witnessed before. So there are great concerns about moving forward. And of course, this time next year. This offer of 15 hours for children from nine months onwards is doubled. There are great concerns that we will be unable to deliver this.

OK, well, this is just the latest expansion. As you say, the hours double next year. Explain this to us. How much do nurseries get from the government to pay for these funded hours? Well, I have to say for the two-year-old, it would be churlish to not say that many providers... but find that that rate is certainly closer to the delivery cost than they've ever had, so for children from nine months through to two.

But I think it has to be also taken into account when you look at the three and four year old funding, which is grossly, grossly short of what it costs. So even government themselves in a freedom of information request. were forced to state that by 2021 they would have to pay to adequately fund these entitlements, the sector, an hourly rate of £7.49. In 2024, we are paid around £5.50.

But clearly it still has to cross-subsidise the shortfall in other areas. And when I say government, I should have said the previous government, of course. Now, so you're concerned that your industry is going to buckle then under these extra hours. But I want to put to you...

Back in 2017, the number of funded hours then for three-year-olds increased. And I was looking at a press release you put out then that warned 38% of providers thought they couldn't afford to stay in business. 42% said they didn't have enough places. That was seven years ago. The childcare system hasn't fallen apart. And some people might wonder if you're...

exaggerating the pressure that these hours put on providers? Well, I would say it depends what your measure of failure is at the end of the day. I mean, I go back to the point, record closures, childminders lost.

Even the Secretary of State, Bridget Phillipson, just the other day, has said that she is concerned as to whether we will be able to deliver that. So to get some honesty from somebody in government, actually, I have to say, is a good starting point. But we ourselves, you said at the outset that we are a charitable organization. So if we run 41 settings, not for profit, if it breaks even, it's as good as it gets. This time, five years ago, we operated 132. So we have closed.

two-thirds of those settings, all in areas of deprivation. So if that isn't evidence, I'm not sure what else I can say. Neil Leach, thank you very much. Well, the Department of Education told us it has plans to create thousands more spaces in places using surplus space in primary schools and recruit more staff with a big campaign ahead of that wider rollout next year.

Sadly, we can't roll out more hours on the Moneybox podcast. So that's it for today. You can catch the programme live at midday on Saturdays or Moneybox Live is on Wednesdays at three o'clock. If there's a story you would like us to take a look at, then please do email. And if you can leave a phone number, please do. We read every message. And just like today, we report then on the subjects you most care about.

In this podcast, the reporter was Dan Whitworth, researcher Catherine Lund, studio manager Chris Mather, our editor is Jess Quayle, I'm Felicity Hanna, and this was a BBC News money and work production for BBC Sounds. It's the 1980s, and a young bodybuilder named William Dillon leaves rural Illinois behind for sun-drenched California in search of a supersized American dream to get absolutely jacked.

When you're muscular, when you're big, you get respect. But he's about to discover the secret to why so many of the bodybuilders around him are getting ripped quick. This is the story of the biggest illegal steroid operation the United States had ever seen. Literally hundreds, if not a thousand needles, came down like the heavens were falling. I'm Natalia Petruzzella from BBC Radio 4. This is Extreme. Musclemen. Listen first on BBC Sounds.

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