Money Box Live: Student Loan Debate

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Hello, student loans and their impact on a generation of graduates' finances have dominated the headlines this last week. Are student loans unfair? Were millions of graduates missold their student loans? It's a question many of them are asking now. Having those hundreds of pounds would be so useful to me in saving for a house. Saving for a wedding. There's a growing anger, especially amongst those who have plan two student loans. Now they're the loans that have above inflation interest added.

Live. The Chancellor Rachel Reeves says the student loan system is fair and reasonable. Well we're bringing the two plans uh uh in line with each other. I think that is fair and uh reasonable and freezing that rate for uh a couple of years. Did you realise it was gonna be like this? I think the honest answer is no. Um how come then? How come I was seventeen? But away from all the politics, in today's Money Box Live Podcast, we're looking at the impact.

on personal finance, the true cost of a degree, and student loans, which are larger, longer lasting, and more expensive than many people expected. The average student graduates with debt of more than fifty thousand pounds. I'm not really in p in a position to be setting fire to twenty one thousand pounds, which is in essence what I've done. You never thought that this was gonna come back and consume you until the age of fifty.

We'll hear more from Alistair soon. Joining me to discuss what this means is Tom Allingham from the student money website Save the Student and Graham Wright from the University of the West of England, Bristol, and also from the National Association of Student Money Advisors. Hello. Hello, thank you for having me. Around ninety percent of eligible students in England do take out a student loan.

Explain how that's broken down. Yes. So there are two main aspects to a to a student loan. You have the tuition fee loan, which as the name suggests is the part that covers your tuition fees. Which for most students in the UK is about nine and a half thousand pounds a year. And then separate to that you have the maintenance loan, which is a part that's designed to go towards your living costs.

Um that'll vary massively depending on where you're from in the UK and what your household income is and where you'll be living as well. But on average it's about seven and a half thousand pounds. So over a three-year degree. You're looking at around£51,500 of borrowing, not including interest. And there is a lot of difference across the nation. So we should say, for example, Scottish students.

don't pay tuition fees if they're studying in Scotland. And if you live in Northern Ireland and you study there, the cost of tuition is cheaper as well. Um Graham, if Scottish students and students from Northern Ireland want to study though, in England or Wales, they will pay fees, won't they? yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw.

um, you know, charge tuition fees and, you know, it's it varies on on each system and and all all of the systems are a bit different. The generally speaking I would say the the English students do get hammered a little bit more, uh, than the Welsh and the scottish in terms of the systems and you can get a uh alone if you're uh if if you're studying if if you're from England studying in in England.

Uh but then that loan goes down depending on uh usually parents' household income if the student is under twenty five. Which we are gonna get into all this uh detail. Um but it's not just how much you borrow, is it? There's also the repayment.

Uh Tom, people talk about lots of different plans. See if you can briefly explain them without making us feel like we're in a particularly grueling maths lecture. Challenge accepted. So there are in total five repayment plans.

I'm not gonna bore you with all the details of all of them. Um and we do actually have a guide on our website, Save the Student, which goes through all the details and it'll tell you exactly which one you're on. But there are some commonalities between them all. So on all of them, you only repay a percentage of your income over a threshold. On all of them, some level of interest will be applied. And again, on all of them, the balance will be cancelled at the end of a given repayment period.

The specifics of each of those measures will vary between the repayment plans, which do vary depending on which part of the UK you're from and when you started university, but those kind of commonalities do run between them all. Okay, well before we hear more from Alistair, who we we just heard about talking about so how his repayments were like setting fire to money, I wondered whether today's students, who are very often teenagers,

Really understand what it is they're signing up for. So I made some University of Salford students late for their lectures by stopping them and asking them. I actually didn't. I didn't know that much about it. At school we had a few assemblies about it, but when you actually got here you were kind of just child.

I didn't really know much. Um I feel like we didn't really get taught anything about it. I mean I'm a bit like just naive to it anyway. I'm like, oh it'll work itself out. But yeah, no, I feel like we didn't really get taught it at all. What about you? Do you know much now? Do you know how much you're gonna repay afterwards?

I see people on TikTok talking about how it's gone up like forty percent since they left uni. So So you're still at uni, what year are you in? Third year. So you're actually starting to think I'm gonna have to pay this off soon? Yeah, so when I actually get a job Not all the money will be going to me, unfortunately. But yeah, that's me. I think nowadays it's more like you see it as like some people call it like an extra tax.

So I think that's probably the best way I'm thinking about it, but I'm not I haven't I don't actually know how much to pay back or when I'm gonna pay it back to be honest, no. Do you know at what point you start paying back your loan? I don't. I probably should, but I actually I don't. I've no reasoning as to why I should probably research into it. But as of right now I'm trying not to worry about it'cause I know it's really stressful and everyone else is worrying about it, so I'm just gonna

Wait until we're done. Do you have any questions about student loans? Um I do wonder when they're gonna like rise with like h housing prices and stuff because I know that my student loan doesn't even cover my rent, there's like a two grand shortfall so that I'm expected to cover myself. But like since rent prices have gone up however much in so many years the student loans stay the same, so it's not really fair to say that that's gonna cover all your costs'cause it doesn't.

And do you know what interest rate you're gonna stop paying back your loan at? I don't know exactly. I do know that if we started a year earlier though, it would be considerably less. But I didn't figure that out until I got to uni, so you know, nothing I could do about it at that point. How do you feel about paying it back for potentially forty years?

Yeah, I was a bit surprised. Everyone before talked about it. It's like, oh, it's not really a big deal, you know, I don't really notice it going out but then of course I'm talking to people that went to uni maybe ten years ago or, you know, five years ago even and now I'm thinking this is gonna be a while, I may not even ever pay this back and you know, I'm gonna be paying it

Oh, thanks to those students. Uh Tom, a lot of them simply didn't know much about how much or when they'll repay this money. Yeah, which sadly isn't that uncommon. Uh we do a student money survey every year.

And one of the questions we ask is, Do you fully understand the terms of your loan? And every single year a significant proportion of students tell us that actually no. They don't understand the terms of their loan in full, which I think is kind of a sad indictment of the lack of financial education that young people are getting.

Graeme, let's give them a financial education then. For any students starting this year, they would be on plan five in England. So under plan five, when do repayments start and how much are they? Mae'r plan 5, mae'r plan 5 yn ymwneud â'r hyn sy'n ymwneud â'r hyn sy'n ymwneud â'r hyn sy'n ymwneud â'r hyn sy'n ymwneud â'r hyn sy'n ymwneud â'r hyn sy'n ymwneud â'r hyn sy'n ymwneud â'r hyn.

an extra nine percent in income tax on everything they earn above £25,000. That's for recent graduates or students, in fact, who started from September 23 onwards. The other plan is the Plan 2, which students from England, if they went to university between 2012 to 2022 are on plan two and that's a higher

starting threshold. And we'll talk about that in just a moment. Uh but Tom, uh another important big change uh in in Plan Five was to the length of time before those loans get written off in England. So

How long could recent students end up paying? Yes, so it's gone up by ten years. So under plan two, your payment term was thirty years. On plan five, it's now forty years. And because of that Graduates on the plan five loans are significantly more likely to repay their loans in full than if they had a plan two loan. Graham, but do you think Plan five then effectively acts as a a forty year graduate tax? I mean that that is exactly it. ten P for every time I've I've used the words it's not.

It's a graduate tax. Don't don't think of it as a debt. I I think I would be quite a rich man, to be honest. I mean it it is it is a graduate income tax in in all but name, so it kicks in at that starting threshold. It will always be nine percent. And I think one of your Uh w one of y one of the people you're speaking to as well mentioned that he he kind of thought of it as a tax and that that is exactly the right way to think about it. And it it's nine percent

Above the threshold. Having said that, a lot of our listeners disagree. In fact, Hannah has emailed to say much of the discussion of student loans. has focused on them being a graduate tax. This fails to account for a lot of wealthier students whose parents pay their student accommodation and fees for them and thus don't take out loans. She says it's not a tax on graduates.

It's a tax on working class people. Very similar email from Steve as well, actually, who says students that have access to wealth and can pay upfront.

uh can avoid the career long crushing interest payments. So it's it's a very live and a lively debate. It's a fair point. Yeah, if you're if you're rich enough then you don't need to borrow anything. So it is yeah, it's uh you know, generally speaking people talk about a choice but really, you know, most of of the the students they have to take out the loans in order to be able to go to university unless they've got a lot of money.

In the bank account. Yes, if you want to be full time at university. Okay, well we've we've talked a little bit about those those controversial plan two repayments. These are the student loans, plan two student loans, they apply to anyone in England who started their course between September 2012 and July 2023.

Uh Tom, we we've covered this a bit, but just summarise for us, what's different about these loans then compared to the the more recent Plan Five loans? Yes, so particularly compared to the more recent Plan Five loans. Plan two has a higher interest rate, so plan five is just RPI. Uh plan two is RPI plus up to an additional three percent.

Now plan two does have a higher repayment threshold, so you don't start repaying until you're earning a little bit more. But crucially that repayment threshold has been frozen many, many times, despite the government promising when it was launched that it would increase annually with earnings. And I think what's kicked off all the recent FuorA is the fact that in the budget, the Chancellor announced that that threshold would be frozen again

Starting in twenty twenty seven for three years. So we're seeing the same fiscal drag as with income tax, where people on lower incomes start repaying and people are overall repaying more on their loans. So inflation plus, uh so above above inflation interest rates. Let

Hear the impact of that then on Alistair, who is a higher rate taxpayer and works in a tech consultancy firm. So I borrowed thirty seven thousand six hundred and fifty four. Uh pounce. And in August, um I asked the a statement. And so they emailed me saying I paid off twenty eight thousand six hundred and eighty seven pounds of that loan. Great. Twenty twenty one thousand two hundred and two pounds of which were interests. So I pay so I still owe them thirty thousand one hundred and sixty nine.

So in essence twenty eight thousand to pay off seven. How does that make you feel? Um, I mean there's a there's a ho there's a whole you know there's uh there's a whole swathe of young people who are just hamstring by these loans that'll never pay them off and I'm not really in pos in a position to be setting fire to twenty one thousand pounds, which is in essence what I've done.

And I think, you know, if an if any other lender had what happened in the budget had changed the rules retrospectively, there'd be you know, you'd hope the government would intervene. But in this case it's them who've done it. So you're paying nine percent um above the threshold. What kind of impact is that having o on your on your monthly budget, on on how you can you know, save and and and get on with your adult life?

It ju it just means that there's another barrier to you putting down a deposit on a house. Do you feel that it's fair, though, that graduates like you who do go on to earn enough to start paying back those debts? should be the ones funding their own degrees. That that you should have taken out a student loan to pay for

I completely I completely agree with that. And I you know, I'm more than willing to pay back a loan. It's a loan. But twenty one thousand pounds interest when, you know, between the age of t twenty four and thirty thirty two but I am now. You're gonna need that to put down a deposit on a house. You know, I'm more than willing to pay off a loan, but the interest is just crippling. And y I d

I've paid off some of my loan. A lot of my, you know, friends w won't pay off any of it and it and and in fact has gone up. How do you feel about the fact though that it it will be written off after thirty years? This is this is not a loan that you have to pay back no matter what.

I get that, but then I would have paid a hundred grand ish on a loan that was thirty seven thousand. And the reason, you know when you were at the finishing school, everyone you know, you you would you were definitely pointed towards university to go and try and, you know, qualify yourself further.

And you were definitely pointed towards a student loan because it was a you know and a low interest loan to help you get there. You never thought that this was gonna come back and, you know, consume you until the age of fifty. Very strong words there from Alistair. He feels like he's setting fire to money. Tom and that's why a lot of graduates are arguing that they have been missold these these loans. They say if it's truly a loan and

not a tax, then you can't freeze the thresholds. But then the Department of Education says these are tough but fair decisions and it's right that higher earning graduates contribute more to their student loan than workers who didn't go to uni or graduates on the lowest salary. Yeah, I mean it's it is a complete mishmash of alone and attacks which it

as we're seeing now, is beneficial to absolutely nobody. Um I think the argument that it's only fair that higher graduates uh sorry, that graduates pay towards their education, not people who didn't go to university i raises questions about the whole taxation system in general, so let's not go down that avenue. Um We've only got half an hour. Exactly that. Um but I think the point stands, you know, we can create all this noise around the edge of it. But the fact of the matter is

When the plan was launched, the government did say that the earnings threshold would increase annually uh sorry, the repayment threshold would increase annually with earnings. That hasn't happened. That was a promise made to students and g and, you know, future graduates. That hasn't happened. It really is as simple as that.

We should mention while we're talking about Plan Two uh loans that Welsh students are still on Plan Two. But the Welsh government says it has the most generous student support package anywhere in the UK and just this week it announced it's not Freezing the repayment thresholds. Different amounts, different nations, different plans. You can see where people get confused. Um, Tom, a lot of these Plan Two graduates, they're also they were the first to pay those higher fees.

High inflation means they're being hit with higher interest rates at the exact time that many of them need to have you know, deal with other costs like having a family or buying a home. Yeah, and you know, for the record, I was on that first cohort. I was in the first year of people paying triple tuition fees, of uh being on plan two. And I think the thing is student loan repayments in and of themselves are probably not

you know, singularly responsible for not being able to buy a house or being able to start a family. But I think it's the straw that broke the camel's back. You know, we've been faced with such tough economic conditions, COVID, financial crash, All of these different things to then have student loan repayments on top, to be repaying hundreds or even thousands of pounds a year and not even seeing your balance decrease.

And then being told that the repayment threshold is being frozen. I think that's why we're seeing so much discontent. Graham, d d does it matter though? Yeah, these ridiculous numbers, these tens and tens of thousands of pounds, does the size of the balance actually

matter for most borrowers, the ones who perhaps aren't aren't earning those huge graduate salaries? Yeah, I mean the answer is it doesn't for most. It it very much depends on what your income is. Th this this is this is my concern actually. You see I w what happens is the the graduates are being written to and sent letters and they get one every year, a bit like a a mortgage statement, but

uh instead of seeing your debt going down, you just see it going up. And um I think the problem is I and and again it I think this is where the government government could perhaps So it's a bit like uh imagine there was a graph, if they were to track the whole of the thirty years for example, you it would look a bit like a rooftop. You for for some, you'd see the debt going up and then you would see the debt going coming down and then it would be written off within thirty years.

For others, you'd see the debt going up and then you would see the debt going up a bit more and then it would get written off. So so one of those two things have to be true. I think unfortunately for all these graduates They've just seen a snapshot of the early part of that graph where they're seeing the debt going up. So that that's only part of the figure they should look at. What they should look at is

What will their repayments be over that thirty year period? That's a really good point actually. So let me give an example. A plan two graduate earning thirty thousand pounds a year is only going to pay nine percent on everything above the threshold, which for plan two is

£28,470. So they would actually be repaying£11.48 a month. So they might not be paying down the interest, but they're not being hit with a massive bill. Tom, how much do you have to earn to actually start paying off the loan and not just the interest? For the average graduate with the average loan, it's estimated it's about sixty six thousand pounds a year salary is what you need to be bringing down the overall balance. Jämför upp till 40 långivare, så du kan få bästa möjliga lånevillkor för.

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Let's talk about how the loans work while you're at uni. Then one of those Salford students I spoke to earlier uh had that that question about maintenance loans, the the part of the loan which covers living costs. She wanted to know when that might go up. Tom, how much do students across the UK get to borrow for maintenance? So again, as with all of these things, it does vary massively depending on where you're from in the UK. Parents, all the rest of it.

Again, the average amount a student gets is about seven and a half thousand pounds. But unfortunately our survey shows that it falls short of living costs by around five hundred pounds a month. So, you know, it's not an insignificant money amount of money you're getting from the government, but it's nowhere near meeting living costs.

Let's hear from Tiana then who's in her second year of a law degree uh and told us how her maintenance loan is working for her. I get my maintenance loan, which is the lowest one I think. It's like four thousand nine hundred and fifteen pounds, which gets split into like semesters. Um it covers my rent for about

well, two months and then that's it. Luckily enough my parents they offer to pay my rent. They've also got bills and stuff to pay at home. It kind of was one of those things where my parents were having to sacrifice things at home in order for them to just put me through a uni. Is the maintenance loan that you get enough? No, definitely not. I definitely don't think that um it's enough at all. So how do you balance the books then? How do you make it work? So I pretty much just

work like all the time. Um, I probably work around like twenty to like thirty hours a week. And it's difficult. I think it definitely took more of a toll on me this year because it got a lot harder, the workload got a lot tougher. Like uni is very expensive. I mean obviously your maintenance zone covers your rent, but

there's things like joining societies and kind of essentially in order to kind of make friends you have to do things. Um so if you don't have the money to do things, it's kind of like then you could risk not having any friends. So you have to kind of spend the money. So I worked a lot in order to be able to like go out and socialise with people.

Thanks, Tiana, for that. It's a good point, isn't it? Part of being a student is having fun and and mixing with other students. Uh Graham, i it must be hard for some families because the amount a student can borrow, as we've heard, is based on parent income.

But that doesn't take into account how many other children they have or what their own financial commitments might be. Yeah, I I think I mean, listening to Anna to Tiada it's really interesting. She's particularly high highlighting the the plight of students from England actually. I think the the the system is worse for those from England because um and and this this is the crazy thing. The the way that

Students the way that the government decides how much maintenance loan to give the student each year is based on a household income assessment. Now, that's normally parents' household income for students who are under twenty-five. Now that household income assessment is still the same assessment that that's been in place for eighteen years. Now in in fact there was a an MP recently, I think Alex Sobol the the MP for for Leeds

uh central and headingly came out recently and and he shone a light on this. That the the fact is that it's a twenty five thousand pounds threshold. So parents have to have a household income of twenty five thousand or less in order to get maximum funding. Now, that has been depreciating for for eighteen years. It's a bit like the the government is using yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n

I you know, I I certainly my plea to the government would be to try and increase that threshold as much as possible, I think. The Department of Education said it's reforming the student finance system in England, uh including Tom, reintroducing targeted maintenance grants. Do we know when that might be? Yes, so it'll be in twenty twenty eight, twenty nine, the academic year, and it'll be for new and continuing students at that point.

Okay, good to know. Um th briefly, Tom, if you can. Broke students living on baked beans is a cliche for a reason, isn't it? You're not you're not necessarily meant to be rolling in cash or finding it easy at this stage of life. It's a cliche, um and it obviously as you say, it has some foundations through the past, but I would say over the past five years the financial situation that students face has got

significantly worse. Maintenance loans have fallen well short of inflation. And, you know, that baked bean pot noodle kind of cliche is You know, many students now would dream of living that life, let's put it that way. I love to pot noodle when it's as Tiana as Tianna was saying as well, you know, she she's been working more part time hours. This is what we find that students do. They work more part time hours. on top of their full-time degree and that can potentially jeopardise

their ability to be able to get a degree as well. It's a really interesting point. Loads of people getting in touch. Ian has said on WhatsApp, if the student loan goes up in line with inflation but the income threshold doesn't, then surely this sets the student up to economically fail. Thank you for that.

Uh, one parent is emailed to say her son has about£20,000 left on a plan to loan, earns about£60,000 a year. She's about to inherit some money and she's wondering if she should lend him the money to clear it. and charge him a lower rate of interest. Tom, it's a really good question. We had another qu p uh email asking if they should be paying off lump sums when they can. What should parents and graduates be considering?

I think the main thing to consider is if you are very, very confident that you'll repay it before that thirty year cutoff. In the vast majority of cases, it's not worth overpaying because essentially if it's gonna get cancelled after thirty years, then overpaying is just throwing money into the abyss. But as I say, if you are a high earner and you have real confidence that you will repay before that thirty years

then do it. But if you're not, put that money towards something else like a a deposit or other debts that you might have. It's it's a gamble, isn't it? That's the thing. If you're bear bearing in mind if you're making an overpayment quite early in your

career, you're you're sort of taking a gamble based on the premise that your income is going to continue to go up. And if it doesn't, then potentially as Tom was saying, you might end up paying back money that would otherwise get written off after the end of that period. Okay. Uh Caroline has emailed to say nurses have to have a degree to qualify for their she says low paid jobs.

Uh in order to make enough to live they often have to do overtime since the amount to pay is calculated monthly. It often puts them over the repayment threshold. Can they get a rebate, Tom? In a nutshell, yes. If you are in that situation you can log into your student loan account. Uh there is an option there for everyone saying that you can request a re a refund and if you are eligible for one, they will get back in touch with you and let you know how much that is.

Very, very good to know. Thank you. Um Graham, we haven't got time to get into all the support that is available to struggling students if they are finding it tough.

Where can they go to find out what help is out there? I mean if if they're if they're a current student the thing to do is to get in contact with the university. Most universities have hardship funds that students can apply for. If if they're in real financial difficulty Rydyn ni'n gwneud unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw

And that'll give you lots of information in there. But but yeah, if if you're struggling at university that there is there are pots of money out there, but definitely get in contact with money advisors like myself at a university and they'll be able to give you some good advice. And Tom, stepping back from the plans and the debts and the costs and the nations and i overall, is a degree a good financial choice?

I would say i it depends. There definitely still is a case for it. There's still a graduate premium, so graduates still earn more on average than non graduates. And there are obviously lots of good experiences at university aside from just the financial side of things. But equally it is very tricky to make ends meet at university. And if you look at what you want to do in life and decide you can do it without university, then there are other equally good options as well.

Thank you. Marcus has message to say I'm listening to this debate. I'm disgusted by the level of debt these aspirational students are saddled with. Madeline has emailed to say my son's just started, Juni. What is the point of understanding the loan when there's no alternative product?

It might just put off poorer students from getting a degree. Okay, that is a good point. We've talked about the financial gain. We've talked about the financial pain. Is it worth it? Is the question for students. And that's what I asked those students in Salford. Here's what they had to say. I think so, yeah. I think you can't really get the experience of uni anywhere else. Like the three years have probably been my best three years of my life so far, so it's worth it, I'd say.

Yeah, not only the education but like the social aspect I've become so confident in the past three years and like meeting people that you push yourself out of your comfort zone to do that. It

been like the best three years of my life. I've got so much more confident. The only thing I would say is that I've had to work so much'cause of the student loan. So uni is more than like the piece of paper you get out the end of it. You you just have to accept that it is money. It is gonna cost a lot, but you y hopefully it will help and you come out with so much more.

What brilliant students. Now one thing we've said throughout today's podcast, but it is worth repeating, there are a lot of differences for student borrowing across the nations and across different years of study. So if you are at all confused, then go to the gov.uk website. or the UKS website and there's loads of really specific information.

Thanks again to our experts today. We've been hearing from Graham Wright from the University of West of England Bristol and the National Association of Student Money Advisors and Tom Allingham from the Student Money website Save the Student. If you want to get in touch with us, if there's a story that you want us to look at, then here's Tiana, the student from earlier, to tell you how.

If you want to appear on Moneybox like I did, email moneybox at bbc.co.uk or send a voice note or comment on WhatsApp. The number is O Double Three O six. 783-183. They really do read and listen to every message. Thanks, Tiana, we really do. In this podcast, the producer was Sarah Rogers, the studio manager Olivia Michelli, production coordinator Jackie Johnson. Our editor is Jess Quayle, I'm Felicity Hannah and this was a BBC News Money and Work production for BBC Sounds.

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