Money Box Live: School Costs

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Because Vivint adjusts your thermostat when it knows you're out, it's a smarter way to save. When Vivint guards your packages from Prowlers, it's a smarter way to protect. And when you can lock the doors and dim the lights for movie night with a single tap, Well, that's a smarter way to live. To get the smarter home system that just gets you, go to Vivint.com or call 1-855-4-VIVINT. Live intelligently.

Make money predicting football. Now you can. Now in Texas with Calci. Calci is the only platform that lets you legally trade on real world events in all 50 states from football to Bitcoin, the Oscars, and even politics. If it matters, you can trade on. Trade on who wins each game, props, spread, and more. Legally, now in Texas. Don't miss your shot. Download the Kalshi app or go to Kalshi.com. Use code PODCAST and get $10 when you trade on.

Hello. In today's Moneybox Live podcast, we're looking at the cost of school. Across the UK, children are well into the spring term now, but one in five parents say they're struggling with the expense. Education might be provided by the state, but there is still a lot for parents to stump up for. There's uniform costs, trips, increasingly there's a need for technology, plus wraparound care, and of course, packed lunches or school dinners.

It's so expensive. It's at least a couple of hundred quid a month. But some changes could be on the way that might save some parents some cash. There are government plans to give every child in England who goes to a state primary school the legal right to a half-hour breakfast club, as well as limits on how much branded uniform parents have to...

So today we're looking at the cost of having a school-aged child. Before we meet today's experts in managing those costs, let's hear from the experts in exactly what they are. Moneybox Live producer Sarah Rogers has been interrupting parents, grandparents and guardians on their school runs in Stockport to ask how expensive it can be. Very expensive because I'm actually a single parent as well to four of them.

But now I've got two in high school. I've noticed a big difference because the high school clothes cost a lot more and Luckily I do find I can budget more with prime school clothes because you can get them from like the supermarkets they have little bundles and stuff but they don't last long so I'm forever buying and buying it's just a never ending. Do you get any support with your school costs?

Yeah, my children both get free school meals, but one of my children's on the artistic spectrum, so he will only eat certain foods, so I have to prepare that, which is then another cost to me from home. But yeah, free school meals for both of them. What about trips and things like that? There's been a couple of trips, not trips as such, like discos and stuff, where I've not been able to send them. The children do get upset, but school are always there to help.

It's hard, isn't it, to do everything? Yeah, because obviously I'm on a low-income... I do work, but I am also a carer at the same time as having all those children and work. We just get by. somehow we do do it they've got to have the pe kits the pump things for doing pe they've got to have the right jumpers they're going away in october but they're going for like two days three days

It's about £500. What they're paying, I could go and have a week in Spain, which is probably debt for me. But it's all added expense that's added onto your thing, especially these days with interest and everything else going up, all your bills. But schools don't seem to be. getting any more help or help for the kids hello i can see you've got your hands full who's a who's i've got three of them i've got a six-year-old

Three year old and a one year old. I'd say it's reasonable but when I've got three of them it's a bit difficult. What are the costs that impact you the most? What do you spend the most money on? probably say their uniforms. So this school they don't dress up so they try to cut down on the cost of buying.

costumes and things like that but things like christmas markets and um the easter bonnet parade and everything like that just going to put them in breakfast club and after school comes and things it does it does add up

It certainly does add up. School trips and uniforms all coming up a lot there. We will get more into those costs later on in the programme. But let's meet today's panel. I'm joined by Jo Thurston, parenting coach from Action for Children's Parent Talk Service, Sarah Coles.

head of personal finance at the investment platform Hargreaves Lansdowne. And Sarah, you're a mum of teenagers, so you're at the front line of this. And Neil Renton, who's headteacher of Harrogate Grammar School, which has more than 2,000 pupils. Hello. Neil, I somehow feel the headteacher I should call you Mr Renton, but I'm going to try and stick with Neil. Joe, let's start with you. We often talk about the high costs of nurseries, school...

It is much cheaper, isn't it? But the National Parent Survey from ParentKind suggests almost half of parents are worried about the cost of uniform. And there are lots of other really significant costs as well. What kinds of things? Yes, sorry. Yeah, the uniform is an interesting one because that alone is a significant cost. So the uniform in our school is between £120 and £140.

Yeah, and then in addition, it's those other things. So if you have to travel to school, there may be a bus pass. So a yearly cost there is £730. Our school is a one-to-one iPad school. So if... Parents support the scheme, that's £13 a month. Then there's the £3.60 a day for a meal deal, which is £684. Then if you sign up to a trip...

There may be a local trip, which could be around £30. It could be an overseas trip. All of those things are special and important. And then when you get to year 11 and your child is leaving, there might be... A leaver's hoodie, a yearbook, a ball that children go to. And some of those, some of the dresses, I think, especially at the balls or the proms, as they're sometimes called. Thank you for those specific examples. Jo, what do parents kind of talk to you about?

about as the significant costs to them? When we're speaking to parents we're constantly hearing about uniform costs, costs of just food. the impact that having those extra expenses has on their ability to pay their rent even. We quite often hear from parents who are feeling quite depressed and stressed and anxious about the struggle they're having with money. We know that...

The added cost, particularly in high school, if you're doing a sport, you sometimes have extra bits like shin pads, mouth guards, shoes. coats come on top of the school uniform, but they still need to have them and they're very expensive items. And obviously with children growing constantly, those costs can really, really add up. Children losing them as well is something I know about first-hand.

Sarah, school can be a big saving for parents after nursery. Once you get them through the door of primary school, it's a big relief. But what about the costs of things like wraparound care and holiday clubs? Yeah, those things can come as a nasty surprise because, you know, you may have been putting your child in for longer hours in nursery and then you've got to cover those extra hours. So the average cost of wraparound care is about £70 a week. The average cost of holiday club is about £175.

at something like a summer holiday if you put them in holiday club for the whole time that's more than a thousand pounds over that six-week period so the initial feeling is oh fantastic i can finally stop paying you know most of my salary into the nursery's account but then you find these extra costs for that extra time

school and it's always worth reminding parents they might be able to use tax-free child care sarah explain to us how that works yeah so the idea is that the government's sort of helping to helping to help you pay for your child care so you open a tax-free child care account and you pay

into it and the government gives you a 20% top up. So it means for every £80 you put in, they put in £20. They'll pay in up to £2,000 per child per year and then you can use that money to pay for childcare. It has to be an approved...

child carer but there's loads of different providers so I think one of the things that comes as a surprise to people is you know things like PGL those holiday camps they are actually an approved provider so there are lots of things that it can cover and it does provide that little extra boost to help you pay.

Yes, and worth remembering that you can look at those extracurricular activities outside of the school. But I did look up, it can't be used for music lessons within the school, but lots and lots of other things. We've heard from lots of parents. Let's head back to Sarah in Stockport.

who's been speaking to the head teacher of Cheadle Heath Primary School. This is Chris Meakin on how they're trying to curb the costs for parents.

It's looking through the lens of a child. How does that child feel going to school? We won't say, what did you get for Christmas? What did you do for Christmas? Because for some children, this is a safe space coming back to school and making sure that every cost that's associated with the school day is looked at through the eyes of the child so we do have a school uniform we keep it really basic really unlogoed try to do quite a lot of trips out of the peak times so our resident

We go in September, October when it's the cheapest period. We do payment plans for parents. No child will ever be left out. because of cost what about things like non-uniform days so something like world book day we say we have come as a word could be excited it could be sleepy in your pajamas we do try to review what we're doing and try to keep it to a to a minimal

Oh, I love come as a word. Jo, the headteacher Chris there saying they don't do expensive dressing up days. And we had a message from one parent to say a dress down day is fine, but a themed non-uniform day can cause issues, especially if it's a specific colour or a top.

like a Christmas jumper or a costume is needed. This can be an issue for parents. Yeah, it certainly can be, especially when it's a little short notice item that you need to buy. We'd really encourage parents to be... talking to each other, supporting each other, borrowing if it's a particular colour or a top or a style that you need, having a look at the school PTA sites, local...

Facebook groups who might have items that you can take away for free. Charity shops are really good as well. And if you've had siblings and you know they've gone through the same, if you've got other children at school who've gone through those sort of things, hold on.

some of the things that you've got that you know might come up again they are expensive they can be expensive but there are lower cost ways of of doing it but it takes a little bit of thinking out of the box and we'd always encourage parents to go and talk to the school as well because they do quite often have

Sort of boxes, as you said about clothes that get left behind and uniform and bits and pieces that get lost. So sometimes they have got some bits and pieces themselves that they can lend out to the child. And it is just good to reuse these things as well, isn't it? Sarah, we're talking about the costs that come up.

state schools. A few parents, though, have already emailed about VAT being added to private school fees. Now, we've covered that before on Moneybox, but I was just curious, are you seeing families withdrawing from their ISAs to cover the fees?

seeing in terms of actually withdrawing savings and investments in order to cover the fees what tends to happen more likely is that people pay as they go along so they'll try and cover the costs out of income and as a result it means that those increases are eating into that wide

budget. And if those families, for example, have big mortgages that are also going up, then that can really put those sort of short term finances under quite a lot of pressure. I mean, I think it's, you know, it's a different nature of a problem compared to those people who are sort of struggling to fill the pack lunchboxes. But for those families who...

are under that pressure have got some difficult decisions to make as well. Thank you. Right, let's hear from Ishan. He's a dad of two and he has a fairly common complaint. Hi Moneybox Live. Post-pandemic, a large proportion of primary schools ask children to attend in PE kit on PE days. If we accept that trainers, tracksuit bottoms and a sweatshirt are acceptable on those days, then why not every day? instead of less comfortable school shoes, a formal shirt, trousers and for some, a tie.

A branded jumper is just about justifiable, but branding other items that are a fraction of the cost unbranded is not. Well, Ishan isn't the only parent facing this cost and maybe feeling strongly about it. The government says that almost a core... And some parents say they were asked to provide 10 or more branded bits of uniform.

which is currently making its way through Parliament, would cap the number of branded items that schools can ask for. Our own Paul Lewis has been speaking to the Schools Minister, Stephen Morgan, about the bill, and he asked why we need branded uniform at all. One of the other measures in the bill affects school uniform, capping the number of branded items parents have to pay for to three branded items for primary schools. And of course, branded items...

parents will know can be twice as much as you pay in a supermarket for clothing. Why do you allow any branded items? Wouldn't it be better just to get rid of them and say they can just wear smart clothes they buy anywhere? So when I talk to parents, when I talk to teachers, they see the value of school uniform and some form of branding. But what our measures will do by reducing the number of branded items will help reduce the costs.

of school uniform we know how expensive that can be 361 pounds on average and we know that this will bring a saving at least 50 pounds per child i think it's a step in the right direction, strengthening existing legislation and making sure that we're playing our part in putting more money back into parents' pockets. Well, you can hear more of Paul's interview from Saturday's Moneybox. It's available now on BBC Sounds.

to Scotland now where Sandra runs the back-to-school bank from Renfrewshire. We very simply, we supply brand new school uniforms to children living in hardship and poverty. Way back in 2015, my daughter, who's a school teacher, she... You know, at Christmas time, many people do these, like a charity tree, and they put tags, Christmas tags on, and people take the tag, and they buy a present for deprived.

children, Christmas presents and things. Of course, she took two or three of them. And we went all shopping for these Christmas presents. And when I noticed what she was buying, she was buying school uniforms. Trousers it was, actually, and a jacket. And I said to her, why are you buying school uniforms? This was on the tags. It's what they were asking, what the people who had organised this had seen that the children were in need of.

and buying them, you know, a pair of school trousers. They're going to open up on Christmas Day, they're going to open up a Christmas present that's going to have school trousers in it. That really threw me. It really was one of those things where you're lying in bed at night thinking about it. And then it occurred to me that maybe we could do something very similar to...

Why do you feel that it's important to give new school uniforms to the people who are accessing your services and not just, I don't know, collecting in secondhand uniforms? Because there's so much of that kind of sloshing around a school. Absolutely, there's lots of that. And a lot of these children live insane, can't close day in, day out. Our resource is that children go to school looking and feeling just the same as everybody else does.

What's demand like then? And is it increasing? Oh, gosh, yes. Yes, year on year. The first year, in the whole year, we did 108 uniforms. We supplied 108 uniforms. By the end of December 24, we were at 524. That's shocking. I wonder what you think about school uniform policies and schools being quite strict about them sending children home if they're in the wrong top or they're not in exactly the right shoes.

Well, fortunately, you can't do that in Scotland. You can't send a child home for not wearing the right uniform. School uniform, in my opinion, is a good idea. If children were to wear their own clothes, they obviously have to change five times a week. the divide would be very clear then. So, school uniform's okay, as long as it's kept as simple as possible. Don't badge up too many things. A blazer and a tie, if you've got to wear a tie, that's about it, and the school colours.

Thanks to Sandra for talking to us about that. We've had a message on WhatsApp from someone who doesn't give their name who says, I strongly object to school uniform. I think it's an expensive and unnecessary thing. The differences between affluent children and the opposite are obvious, regardless of whether...

that there is a uniform in place. Thank you for that. Jo, when it comes to uniform, there is actually a requirement now for schools in England to make second-hand uniform available to families, isn't there?

There is, yes. And anyone who's struggling with the cost of uniform should really be talking to their school about that. There are also in several areas, there are grants that you can apply for that might help with the cost of uniform. So it's definitely worth talking to your school or your local...

authority to see whether you might be eligible for one of those grants towards the cost as well. I've been delighted actually. My son's primary school has a really simple way to buy a second-hand uniform now. They hang it up, you donate 50p an item and you can just take what you need which does make a difference.

Jo, we heard on Saturday's programme about plans to give children in state primary schools in England access to a half-hour free breakfast club. So that's breakfast. But lunch is a big cost. Now, there are some funded lunches. that aren't means tested, aren't there? What kind of funded meals in school do all children get? There are. So the universal school lunch scheme allows...

children who are up to year two in England and primary five in Scotland and the end of primary in Wales to have a free school meal. So every day they would go in, they would be entitled to a free lunch. Beyond that age group, then... you do have the ability to apply for free school meals, depending on whether you claim certain benefits or what your income is or your situation of financial hardship. So at that point, when you've come off the universal school meal scheme.

If you are struggling with those costs, it's definitely worth speaking to your school in the first instance about whether you might qualify. for that scheme. Neil, do you see issues for children who are just missing out on those meals but whose families are maybe still struggling with the food costs?

Yeah, I think that's a really good area of focus because, yes, we get some additional funding to school for free school meals and pupil premium, but there is a group of parents just above those thresholds that really do find it difficult. And those costs that... I outlined are really real and they do add up over time and I think head teachers across the land are trying to use their discretion to offer that quiet help in the background to unlock

barriers and there's lots of things that they can do and work together with trust that they work in, go out to parents for additional help in other areas to those parents who can help use their alumni. background map out the costs for parents so they can see so i'd urge any parent that is in that group to really come forward and contact their school and do that discreetly so that that support can happen for them. Sounds like a lot of work alongside the teaching.

Yeah, I mean, headteachers are really mindful of costs because they're having to run schools on really, really tight budgets. So our total income for the school is 12%. million pounds sounds a lot but 85% of that will be spent on staff costs and the bottom line at the end of the year might be reserves of between 50 and 100,000 if you

are really lucky and do it well. So I think headteachers are really very, very mindful for everybody of what the costs are and trying to deliver that great service for children post-pandemic who have that need. Well, let's head back to Stockport, where our producer Sarah got chatting to her dad about the cost of meals. You know, you know food prices now. Pat lunches every day could be...

£30 a week maybe. He gets to choose what he wants to eat, which is good. What's your favourite school dinner? Jack and potato. Oh, do you have anything on it? Cheese and beans. Nice, jacket, potato, cheese and beans, that sounds great. You know, we set aside money to keep the kids with the uniforms on, unless he starts drawing on him like he normally does, so we try and give him everything.

Heavy little Alps don't sit with school meals and stuff like that. But we're going now, do you want to say bye? Bye! Oh, I like a cheesy jacket potato as well. Sarah, this is a growing issue for families, isn't it? Research by the Food Foundation and the Bread and Butter Thing suggests 16% of families outside of London who don't have access to free school meals had sent their child to school.

Now, we heard today that inflation had fallen slightly, so we're perhaps through the worst of the rising prices. briefly, how have food prices changed over recent years? Well, you're right. So the figures out today showed that food prices have risen only 2% in the past year, which looks good. But actually, if you go back to when we had that sky high inflation, that is all obviously just accumulating. So over the two years, the sort of most hectic...

two years of the cost of living crisis, we saw prices go up by about a quarter. The food prices rose by a quarter, which has pushed a lot of people into difficulty. I think one of the other things to bear in mind is if you look at things like school dinners, it's not just the price of the food, it's also the price of the food.

the staff who are producing it. And that could all increase in April when we see those staff costs go up, things like the employer's national insurance rise. So that's going to be one to watch as well. Yes, national insurance rise and minimum wage going up. Neil, briefly, if you can.

Does that mean the cost of school dinners at your school would have to increase? Yeah, so we did put our prices up around a year ago and there's a threshold that you don't want to cross, which is we didn't want to get... to three pounds for a hot meal and going further than that you just think it's too high for parents but if you don't adjust the cost the effect would be then

what it does to your bottom line figure as a school and then you're looking at well actually can I afford those teaching assistants, can I afford those teachers. So I've got to make the canteen financially viable. So what do I do? So you do ultimately put that cost somewhere else, which is sobering when you hear the impact on parents. Yes, no easy answers. The Department for Education told us that despite having And they said, Joe.

We're talking about some families not qualifying for free school meals, even though money's tight and they're struggling with the cost. We talk a lot on this programme about benefits that are underclaimed more generally. Are some families missing out on financial support that they're entitled to?

Yes, I think that's happening quite a lot across the country. And there are ways of finding out whether you are entitled to benefits. It's worth every parent, I think, going through a benefits calculator. Organisations like Turn to Us online have a really good... benefits calculator.

as do, you know, if you go onto the government website, it will signpost you to other benefits calculators as well. Once you put in your information there, it'll give you any kind of benefit that you might be entitled to claim for. So it's definitely...

worth having a go at that and just seeing what's available for you thank you we're getting a lot of emails about the cost of school trips here's one from pamela who says my children were at primary school in the 90s the headmaster had an excellent non-compulsory scheme

where those who wished to would pay up to £5 per child per term. The money was put aside to pay for trips for less fortunate children. This was done without fuss, so no one knew who paid and who received. Neil, is there a risk that some...

families simply say their child doesn't want to go rather than admit that perhaps they can't afford to send them and is there anything that you can do about that? Yeah I think that's a real issue and it's the same with free school meals that some children don't want to feel different and don't come forward so I think the same with trips that people

do find it difficult to ask. So what we've done as a school, where we've got a trip where we want every child to go, we've proactively said, let's use all the... resources that we have, unlock any barriers and try and work with those families and persuade and support them so that the children do go.

Because it is an important part of it, isn't it? A few people also getting in touch about needing laptops, tablets, smartphones to access school education. Here's Emma on the issue of phones. I think it's still a luxury item and they are so... expensive we're talking hundreds of pounds is quite a big ask and when you're looking at that for secondary most secondaries already insist that you buy your child a laptop of some description for them to use at school so that's already an expense

If you put a smartphone cost on top of that, that is a lot of money for people to have to find and maintain the phone. I just don't think it's accessible. Jo, Emma's making a really good point that there is this expectation, not just for the parents to have smartphones, but for children to have the technology as well. And I know two of my boys are at secondary school. They both need smartphones for their homework. That must put additional pressure on. a lot of parents.

Yeah, it really does. And again, the Digital Inclusion Fund and the Digital Poverty Alliance have been set up to try and help with some of those costs. So it's worth contacting your local authority to see what the... digital inclusion fund in your area might be able to provide for you and looking up the digital poverty alliance and seeing if there's anything that they can do as well and again as we said before speak to the school if you're really struggling with those things

it's always worth talking to the school to see what they can do and whether they can provide support into where you might be able to go locally to get that kind of extra support or those items. Neil, children need to be prepared to... to handle technology for their future careers, don't they? How do you manage that as a school? Yeah, 100%, a famous quote in education, the education of today is the economy of tomorrow. We've got to get children.

really savvy with technology ai so we all as a school here we provide ipads it's 13 pounds a month but we do a lot of loan iPads for parents. So crucial that we get technology in the hands of children so that they can learn and develop.

Lots of emails coming in on lots of the different topics. One email from Sophie who runs her primary school's PTA in Bristol. She says, we raise money from parents to fund lots of the things we need at the school, such as trip subsidies, school book bags, fun things like plays and pantomimes.

mimes for the children during school hours in the winter season ptas are absolutely crucial uh another emma says i don't know why we can't buy school badges to sew on rather than having to buy branded items of uniform thank you so much for that That's all for today's Moneybox Live podcast. Thank you to everybody who took part or got in touch. And thank you, of course, to today's panel. We've been hearing from Jo Thurston, parenting coach from Action for Children's.

Parent Talk Service, Sarah Coles from Hargreaves Lansdowne, and Neil Renton, headteacher of Harrogate Grammar School. Now, if Moneybox had a headteacher, it would, of course, be Paul Lewis. And you can hear him live every Saturday at midday. Or you can catch the Moneybox podcast a few hours later on BBC Sounds. If you have a story or a financial issue that you want us to take a look at, please do.

get in touch. You can email moneybox at bbc.co.uk or you can send a voice note or comment to us on WhatsApp. The number is 033 06 783 183. In this podcast, the producer was Sarah Rogers, the studio manager, Solmaz Aslan. Our editor is Jess Quayle. I'm Felicity Hanna. And this was a BBC News Money and Work production for BBC Sounds. Hello, this is Danny Robbins. Three years ago, I was told one of the scariest stories we have ever had on Uncanny. The entire room erupts.

There are things flying around all over the place. In 1973, a young climber called Phil spent the most terrifying night of his life in an abandoned house in the Scottish Highlands. We're absolutely terrified. And we hear this thing. going around the building. Now, we are going back there with Phil, returning to Louisbelt, 50 years on, to confront whatever he experienced there. There it is, Phil.

Yeah, that's it, all right. Poking up over the hill like a grim specter. How are you feeling? You OK? Nervous. Yeah? Yeah. Subscribe to Uncanny on BBC Sounds. A Vivint home is a smarter home. Vivint lets you keep an eye on your kids from anywhere, so it's a smarter way to care. Because Vivint adjusts your thermostat when it knows you're out, it's a smarter way to save.

When Vivint guards your packages from Prowlers, it's a smarter way to protect. And when you can lock the doors and dim the lights for movie night with a single tap, well, that's a smarter way to live. To get the smarter home system that just gets you, go to Vivint.com or call 1-855-4-VIVINT. Live intelligently.

Make money predicting football. Now you can. Now in Texas with Calci. Calci is the only platform that lets you legally trade on real world events in all 50 states from football to Bitcoin, the Oscars, and even politics. If it matters, you can trade on. Trade on who wins each game, props, spread, and more legally. Now in Texas. Don't miss your shot. Download the Kalshi app or go to K-A-L-S-H-I dot com. Use code podcast and get $10 when you trade on. This is an investment that carries risk.