Money Box Live: Older Workers

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello. In today's Moneybox Live podcast, we're looking at why more and more people are continuing to work into their older age. Back in the 90s, only around 5% of people aged 60... or older were in work. In the early 2000s, it rose to about 6%. But the recently released data from the Office for National Statistics shows that today, almost 12% of people in that age group are in some form of employment.

That's almost one and a half million. And they're working in almost every sector you can think of. I decided at the tender age of 64 to go back to flying. I used to fly in the early 80s.

So what is it that's changed? Well, for one, it's the law. There's now no default retirement age. And the age that people can begin to receive the state pension is also rising. So that pushes more people in their 60s into work. Plus, of course, the cost of living means that more people... simply have to work if they want to balance the books.

Before we meet today's experts in working in older life, let's hear from Paul. He's 73 and he works two days a week at CJ Auto Service in Warrington. I met him there and while he got on with cleaning the floor, he told me how he got the job. My name's Paul Gregory. I'm 73 and this is what I do. I work at this garage two days a week, 8 till 4 in the afternoon. As you can see, it's quite a clean garage.

this is a good machine yeah it's all all singing all dancing now you were you were retired and then you you got this job how did that happen well what it was i brought my car in for a bit of work it wanted a service and what have you and I just asked the guys in the reception did they want anybody to

clean the garage really and they said yeah what's the reason you were looking for a job did you need some extra cash in retirement well it just it gets me out of the house Felicity I mean before before this I had a I had a job as a minibus driver looking after autistic children. I used to drive them and the carers to the school and then I got made redundant. So I needed something to do, you know.

Well, it's only two days a week. How important is the money to you? Well, it comes in handy. You know, I get paid monthly. extras for going on holidays and things like that i mean i've got i'm a pensioner i got my pension in 2016. i just like working If you had to stop working, would that make a big dent in your finances? Would that cause you problems? Not really.

I'd have to dip into my private pension. I'm fortunate I've not really touched it. You've not touched your private pension? You're 73. Yeah, but I took the, is it the 25%? Yeah. It's okay for me. There might come a time when I'll have to pack in. Perhaps I'll volunteer doing something. You're clearly not a man who's going to go home and sit down and watch Countdown all day. Oh no.

Never watched Countdown, really. I'm a chase man. I like the chase when I get up. Countdown's very good. Oh, I know it is, yeah. Then, if anyone was listening and they were wondering why it is that at 73 you're working quite physically demanding work, what would you say? I don't find it really that physical because, I mean, there's no lifting or anything. I'm just, like I say, cleaning the floors, cleaning the ramps, emptying the bins, obviously, and, oh, stocking the coffee machine up.

That's an essential job. Oh, it is. It's an all singing, all dancing machine. It has, well, as you can see. Would you like one? I do not. I'd love a coffee, yeah. What do you want? Cappuccino, espresso, Americano, flat. No, actually, a hot chocolate, please. Press the button. Oh, that looks amazing. Do you want sugar with it? Not with my hot chocolate. No, I'm good. Thank you. Do you have a partner? Yeah, my wife. Yeah, Jean. What does she make of you?

Still working. Did she have a different... She volunteers at Barnardo's every Thursday. Neither of you are just kicking back? Not really. Well, she looks after the grandkids, you know, taking them to school runs and all that. Which I do as well sometimes, yeah. You can't sit around, can you? You can't. Well, I don't want to, really.

Paul there. And it really was a very good hot chocolate. Listening to that are today's experts. I'm joined by Dr. Emily Andrews, Deputy Director for Work at the Centre for Aging Better, and also Sarah Jackman, an employment lawyer at the law firm Dentons, which is based in Glasgow.

afternoon. Thank you both for joining us. Emily, let me start by asking how common Paul is because those ONS stats, they show more people are working past 65. Do we know if more people are working into their 70s or even older? So there's a lot that we don't know, actually, because as a state, we kind of...

still treat the state pension age like a bit of a cutoff, like it is a retirement age. And we kind of assume in lots of different ways that people aren't working beyond retirement age, except we know that lots of people are. And that actually is quite a problem. People who...

who are working, who want to work, who indeed need to keep working beyond state pension age, they currently don't have access to any support to help them do it. So there's a lot I have a sense of, but there's also quite a lot we don't know. And that is a big problem. And it's kind of emblematic of how we treat.

retirement in this country as if it's a fixed point rather than this really becoming a much more amorphous experience there is uh there is some help and advice available by the way gov.uk the gov.uk website you can go there and search help for older workers and they do

have quite a lot of guidance. Emily, do we know why people are working? You mentioned a few possible reasons there. They want to, they need to. In Paul's case, the money pays for those pleasant extras that a lot of people do see as quite essential. Do we know though if more people are working?

simply because they have to pay the bills? So I think my sense is that the majority of people, maybe only a slight majority, are sort of in Paul's position, that they're working for connection, for purpose, for fulfilment. And yeah, the money's nice, but it's not the primary driver. However...

There is a significant proportion of people and a group that's likely to be growing that is working into their late 60s and 70s beyond because they need the money. We have the lowest state pension in the OECD. We've got fewer people retiring with a kind of more generous...

defined benefit pension we've got more people who are privately renting in their 60s and 70s so they've got high housing costs that aren't going anywhere and that group is feeling more pushed to keep working and there are employers that are offering

more opportunities to this group clearly otherwise we wouldn't have had such an increase in work at this age but fundamentally they're underappreciated by employers and still under supported by the state. And it's worth mentioning of course the state pension age is rising it's going from 66 to 67.

in 2026, 2028. It's then going up to 68 from 2044. So a lot of the younger people listening to this can expect to be working into their late 60s. Absolutely. And I think that we still haven't quite got our heads around that.

individuals you know there's some really interesting research that suggests that still when we think about our retirement we tend to think about our grandparents and our parents retirement that's what we kind of have in our mental picture of our own retirement well for people who are in their 50s 40s 30s even younger our retirement's going to look nothing like our parents and grandparents. And, you know, we need to start getting our heads around that now.

Thank you. Sarah, Paul's boss agreed to take him on for two days a week and Paul doesn't want to work full time. Are enough employers flexible about offering part time hours or maybe flexible hours to help people keep working? We are seeing increasing interest in offering part-time roles and many employers are looking to make their organisation inclusive in order to secure staff, to secure the best staff. And all employees now have the right... to request to ask.

to work flexibly so they can ask for that but it's not guaranteed so different employers will take different approaches and if there is a business need for a full-time position then that is relevant and they're allowed they are allowed to say no.

What are your rights as you get older but keep working? Can you ask for allowances to be made? So thinking about Paul there, he's doing what I consider to be quite a physical job, but it doesn't involve any heavy lifting. Can you ask an employer to adapt a role if you find you can't be as physical? Certainly.

Your position is much stronger if you're disabled, as defined by the Equality Act. So if your medical condition has an impact with a long-term substantial effect that makes it difficult for you and it's going to continue for at least 12 months, then the law treats you as... being disabled, although many people will not wish to have that label put upon them. In that case, you're in a good position if you're looking to seek adjustments to the work that is required of you.

That's a very technical answer. And really, often the success in an employment relationship is where the employee and their line manager have a good working relationship. They can be open about their requirements and about their difficulties. And certainly in the post-pandemic working world, there is much more understanding of people's...

individual pressure points and difficulties and an increasing openness about these issues. And we are seeing that leading to more positive relationships in the workplace. And I would hope that that would continue to increase. having a legalistic approach to asking for a reasonable adjustment. It is something that can be supported. Lots of change. Thank you. Emily, briefly, Paul also said something quite interesting about his wife. She's volunteering and she's looking after the grandchildren.

very busy. There is a lot of work people can do particularly at this age that isn't paid but is still work, is still a big contribution to society. Absolutely. Volunteering, caring, helping out in your community. There's so many ways in which people continue to contribute to the economy that isn't just paid work. But that paid work is also really important to the economy and needs to be.

kind of part of our kind of mixed approach to how we think of people at this age. Yes and of course looking after the grandchildren supports other people in work which is worth bearing in mind. Many women are working past the age they expected to because their state pension age was changed.

Jackie from Surrey is in that boat and I spoke to her earlier in the week. I am at 66 in November so I'm 65 at the moment. I'm still working because, one, I'm healthy enough to, which I'm very lucky to, but my pension didn't come in at 60 as I was planning to. The problem is, of course, they didn't tell us as well. So I didn't find out until I was 57 that I had to work until originally 65 and then they put it up to 66. So that was a bit of a shock.

So what did you do when you realised that you weren't going to get your state pension when you expected? Well, I had actually changed career. I was in the furniture trade, managing high-end furniture stores. And I decided at the tender age of 64 to join British Airways and go back to flying. I used to fly.

in the early 80s. And yes, I didn't think I would get in because of my age, but they never asked me my age. I didn't think I'd get through the training because that was very, very tough, and I did. And now I'm out seeing the world. So you're an air steward? That's correct, yes. Is that quite physically demanding work? It is. And to be honest with you...

I don't know why, but the last six months, it is tiring. It is taking it out from me. I'm very lucky that the Shareways are now offered part-time. because I don't think I can do full-time anymore. You still think you're 21, but your body's telling you something different that you're not as young as you used to be. Do you enjoy your work?

I do, but I'm enjoying now, looking forward to going to part-time, because as you get older, you know, I've got grandchildren. I'd like to see them more. I'd like to have gone part-time when I was 60, to be honest with you, if I could have afforded it, but I couldn't. because of the pension. And also, people don't realise that, you know, women of a certain age have other responsibilities as elderly parents, and I have a very father moment.

So that was Jackie. Emily, Jackie's one of the so-called waspy women. They're continuing to campaign for compensation. There are ongoing changes to the state pension age we've already mentioned.

people do need to really be on top of this. Yeah, and I think also it's not just about people, it's about government. There is a really important lesson to be learned, I think, from the Waspy women, which is that there were people who thought that they had given women enough time, the Waspy women, enough time to adjust.

to their change of circumstances that they've given them enough notice to prepare that they communicated this well enough and clearly that wasn't a case and lots of the Waspie women have had difficult situations and difficult in order to manage that so I think

communication from government and learning that lesson for further increases is going to be really important. Sarah, one thing that stood out to me and what Jackie said was that they didn't ask about her age when she applied to be an air steward. She didn't feel at all discriminated against. People do still encounter some discrimination though when they're looking for work in older age.

We do certainly hear about that, and sometimes that can be perception-based. But the law prevents age discrimination, and only in very limited circumstances can age be taken into account. So it sounds like her employer there took an age... response, just in the same way we hear of gender neutral CVs, etc. And that provides that you're looking at the individual, you're assessing them individually as to what their skills are, and that's a fair way to proceed.

And I want to ask you, Sarah, about the menopause. This is something women do typically experience younger, you know, in their 40s or 50s, but it can have a long-term impact on their careers. I was looking at a report from the HR organisation, the CIPD. It shows two thirds of women in employment aged between 40 and 60 said that menopausal symptoms had had a negative effect on them at work. Is there a risk that disrupts your career as you age and means you don't have those opportunities later on?

Absolutely, and there's been significant research on that point recently with evidence to show that women have left their roles because they can't. continue with their job or they feel they can't ask for the help that they need and there is now a significant number of people in that age group in the workplace and They're missing out on leadership opportunities that they would otherwise be going for. So we have seen a huge uptake.

in interest in employers being more supportive and providing support putting mentors in place and in my workplace we have menopause mentor mentors and just breaking down the stigma involved in speaking about menopause and it's become...

workplace issue that people feel more comfortable to discuss. Which is very good to hear. Loads of you are emailing in about this with the many different jobs that you're doing. Janet says, I'm often annoyed at the use of the phrase people of working age because it implies

that older people do not work she says I have worked since I was 17 I'm 71 now I retired at 60 but I was climbing the walls after six weeks so I began a second career as a university lecturer I'm still doing it part-time today really good to hear Janet thank you

Emily, I want to talk to you about older workers who are self-employed. Ipsy represents self-employed and freelance people. And it told me the over 60s account for 21% of all self-employed people in the UK. And what I thought was quite interesting. was 7% of all self-employed people are over 67. So it's a lot. Do you think that's because...

older worker skills suit being freelance or is it because they're being discriminated against in employee roles? I think it's a really mixed picture. So I think probably for most people still, particularly at the older end, being self-employed is...

really really positive it's people who have had long careers who've built up skills and expertise who decide they want to work in a different way maybe a bit less intense they set up as consultants they're kind of offering their expertise to different organizations it's good for them good for employers

and good for the economy. Win, win, win. However, my concern is that the increase in self-employment as people get older also reflects a couple of problems in the labour market, one of which is age bias and recruitment, which we've already discussed. the other is the lack of good quality part-time work. That of course impacts not just people in this age cohort.

It impacts carers, it impacts disabled people, it impacts working parents, it impacts people who are in several of the above groups. And it's worth noting that workers over 65 are actually...

the second most likely to be on a zero hours contract, second only to people aged 18 to 24. So that, again, is further kind of... a grist to my mill I suppose that actually part of the problem is that we don't have decent secure part-time work and so people are having to go for more insecure options in order to do have the flexibility that they really need.

Emily, thank you very much. Let's take a call. Julie is on the phone. Julie, good afternoon. Hello there, Felicity. Thank you very much for joining us. You're only in your mid-60s, but you've had to leave work. Tell me why. Yes, I left five years ago now. I was a marketing manager with a team of about 16 or 17 people.

I became more and more aware of ageism within the team towards me. And how did that ageism, how did that discrimination show itself? There would be sort of little comments and things like... I think I took a cake into work one day and somebody said, oh, do you bake? Do you know how to knit? And when I said, well, yes, they said, oh, you're like somebody from the war. Wow.

Yeah, quite a shock. And things like if we were running a digital marketing campaign, which became quite popular in the sort of... from about 2016 onwards, it would be, oh, of course, we didn't do that back in your day. Oh, back in your day. Ouch. Yeah. And they're just small things like that that kind of build and build and you're aware that you're being ostracised within the team, which...

Not a very comfortable feeling. No. Were these much younger workers than you? Were they all sort of fresh graduates? Not really. I mean, increasingly the team became younger and younger. But... I would say the average age within the team was about 37. Okay. Did you talk to your employer about what was going on, how you felt? I did. I did, yes.

And was there any positive outcome from that? They were quite dismissive and sort of, oh, I'm sure they're only joking and I don't think they mean anything by it. sort of words like that, really. I mean, it sounds very uncomfortable and what you decided that this wasn't something that you could stick around and endure. Yeah, I mean, I've worked there for quite some time and it just became... Every morning you wake up and you think, oh, I don't really need this. This is just, you felt...

Less and less part of the team. And so, yeah, I just thought I don't really want this ageism. It makes me feel worth going into work. And so I took the very difficult decision to retire early. That would have been a very difficult decision, particularly if you really enjoy what you were doing. Did you think about looking for other work? I didn't, to be honest.

When I'd had my children, I did look at the idea of having a job other than in marketing, which had always been my career, but it just wasn't very satisfying. I enjoyed the buzz that you get from doing creative marketing campaigns. How are you now? How's retirement working for you? I love it. I'll be honest with you. I mean, it's really nice to be able to just do...

whatever I feel like, depending on what the weather's like. So I've had to work hard at building a calendar of events for myself and not just sort of sit on my laurels, but I'm really happy. Well, that is really good to hear. Julie, thank you so much for joining us.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Sarah, we've talked a little bit about discrimination, but it's really interesting that that played out in ways for Julie that weren't necessarily obvious. Things like comments about cakes and wars and knitting. And the thing is, the individuals making those comments probably had no idea of the impact. And one thing that is really difficult is when you're feeling the way she was feeling to speak up.

to those individuals and trying to do that can be very stressful and awkward. So again, the focus for the employers is creating a culture in which they're aware of... difficulties that can arise and they're alert to comments being made and if you can nip that kind of stuff in the bud quickly

then there is usually scope to prevent it becoming such a big issue that it can lead to someone feeling like they've got to move on. Do you think, Sarah, most employers now, they understand the importance of being inclusive and having a diverse workforce. Maybe they don't see age as a type of diversity. I think you're right. I think there is less focus on that. There has been less focus on that.

I think that will have to change because of the numbers that we've talked about earlier in the programme and the changing look of the workforce. And teams with mixed age groups can be so creative and can be really energised. But it takes time to reflect and to ensure that that is what is happening on the ground. But it's absolutely worth the focus and the commitment.

Emily, what are the benefits of age diversity that employers might not necessarily think about? Yeah, I mean, ageism is the most widespread form of discrimination in the country, but there's also really, really low awareness of it as a problem. This is what we found when we've been rolling out on.

new national age without limits campaign trying to kind of raise awareness of ageism as an issue and get people to think and act differently about age. A multi-generational workforce as you've just said actually that's backed up by research the point you made Sarah.

It's when you bring older and younger workers together that you actually get the most innovation and workplaces with a higher share of older workers are more productive. So if there's individuals who feel that they've experienced ageism in the workplace or in other forms of life, I'd really encourage...

them to have a look at our age without limits campaign and sign up to tell their story and if there's employers who want to do this better we've got over 360 employers who signed our age for any employer pledge who are committed to creating age for any cultures and we're helping them do it so if you're

employer who really wants to make the most of these um this fantastic portion of the workforce we can help you do that and it sounds like it's the answer to the productivity problem um still loads of you emailing in denny says now in my late 70s i've worked self-employed for 18 years as a funeral celebrant

I love helping families at a sad time and guiding them as they plan a funeral. The work is demanding, fulfilling and helps me buy a few treats. But Denny says what drives me mad is the fact that so many of my friends think I should stop simply because of my age. Thank you very much for that. Um.

Emily, I want to talk about the number of older workers who are really struggling. I was speaking to Sue earlier in the week. She's not available to come on the show today, but she told me she's 72. She's working part-time in a canteen simply because she has to, to pay them.

bill so she's on her feet it's quite physically demanding work and she's quite anxious about what might happen when she can't work uh anymore do we know how many older people are are really struggling financially yeah so this is a real problem pensioner poverty had been

falling for decades and decades and decades until about 10 years ago. When it hit a low of 13% and then it's been going up again. So now we're at a position where about one in five people who are of pension age are living in relative poverty.

The additional challenge there is that many, if not most people in that group, face additional barriers to accessing work, right? You're more likely to be in poverty as a pensioner if you are disabled. You're more likely to be under pension if you're a carer, if you're a disabled carer. is bad for your health. If you have less money, you're more likely to have a long-term health condition that makes it harder for you to access work. So this definitely is a problem. It has got worse.

Financial insecurity, therefore, might be the thing that's driving some people towards work. But actually, those at the sharpest end of that may not be able to work. Work isn't the fix for them. And we need to think about how we're going to support those people better as well. And that's particularly down to the fact that more people are becoming lifelong renters. I think we can just about squeeze in one more quick piece.

final advice from you both. Sarah, if somebody is older and they're looking for work at the moment and they feel that they're facing discrimination in their job hunt, where can they get support? What can they do? They may want to speak to Citizens Advice Bureau or look at the resources on the ACAS website to get general information. Ultimately, they can raise a claim with the Employment Tribunal if they feel that age is the reason that they haven't been offered a job.

Thank you. And Emily, more of us are just going to have to work into our older age. You've made the point it's good for employers. Can it be a good thing for the workers as well? Absolutely. Good quality work brings us social connection. It brings us money, which we need. And also it's good for our health.

health, it can be great to be in a good workplace, but that's the real challenge. We need to have good quality, flexible work in our economy so that people can work in a way that is good for them and then ultimately good for all of us. Thank you. One last email from Jan who says...

I work for a large supermarket. It's common for people over 70. I don't see the problem. I'm older and love working. Well, that is all we've got time for in today's Moneybox Live podcast. Huge thanks to everybody who took part. And if you are an older worker and you'd like to...

talk to us for a future programme, please do get in touch. Thanks also to our panel. We've been hearing from Dr Emily Andrews, Deputy Director for Work at the Centre for Aging Better, and Sarah Jackman, an employment lawyer at the law firm Dentons. financial issue and you want to get in touch with the team here please do email us the address is moneybox at bbc.co.uk and do include a phone number if you can

In this podcast, the producer was Amber Mahmood, production coordinator Jackie Johnson, the studio manager Ben Houghton. Our editor today was Sarah Wadeson. I'm Felicity Hanna. And this was a BBC News money and work production for BBC Sounds. I'm Kavita Puri, and in Three Million from BBC Radio 4, I hear extraordinary eyewitness accounts that tell the story for the first time.

of the Bengal famine which happened in British India in the middle of the Second World War. At least three million people died. It's one of the largest losses of civilian life on the Allied side, and there isn't a museum, a memorial. or even a plaque to those who died. How can the memory of three million people just disappear? 80 years on, I tracked down first-hand accounts.

and make new discoveries and hear remarkable stories and explore why remembrance is so complicated in Britain, India and Bangladesh. Listen to 3 Million on BBC Sounds. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites. with indeed sponsored jobs your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster

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K-A-T-Z 13 right now. And support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, Indeed, is all you need.