Money Box Live: Gambling Debt

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Find out more at bbc.com slash join. Hello. In this Moneybox Live podcast, we're talking about gambling. For many people, the occasional flutter is just a bit of fun. For others, it can become an addiction, which can be emotionally devastating and financially ruinous. Figures given exclusively to Moneybox Live show that almost two thirds of people who picked up the phone to the National Gambling Helpline had gambling related debt. It can feel like an endless cycle, quite literally.

it's like being in a cylindrical washing machine it just goes round and round You're robbing Peter to pay Paul. Very lonely place. Well, we will hear more about the harm it can cause. Today's experts are standing by. But before we meet them... I've been out to a windy witness in Cheshire to speak to people about their gambling habits. I sometimes gamble on the horses, Grand National, and an odd pound or two on a one-armed bandit, that's all.

How often do you think you do it? Once or twice a year, that's all. It's mainly around Grand National. So how much do you think you spend when it is the Grand National? Probably 10, 20 quid, something like that. I have a limit and that's it. I'll stick by it. Is gambling for pleasure something that you do? No, but I think there's far too much gambling, the adverts on the TV.

Do you think that the adverts encourage people into something that could become a problem? Well, if you're that way inclined, yes, I think they would. I do the lottery all week. I do the... normal lottery and the Euro lottery. That's it. Oh, and when the Grand National is on, I might pound each way on just for a laugh thing. We do it with the kids and that. Do you gamble for pleasure at all? No, I don't.

Because I think it's a complete mugs game. Quite frankly, the only winner is the companies that you're gambling with. What about you? Can I ask, do you gamble? Only on the Grand National, believe it or not. And obviously I do the lottery as well. How often do you play the lottery? Every week. Any winnings? No. I think a lot of us will have quite similar lottery stories. In fact...

Almost half of us have gambled in the last month. That's according to the regulator, the Gambling Commission. And if you take out the lottery, then that drops to around a third. Now let's talk to today's experts. I'm joined by Nicholas Hill from the Money and Pensions Service.

which is sponsored by the Department for Work and Pensions, and also Rominta Deliso, who heads up the gambling-related financial harm team at the charity Gamcare, which is in part funded by the gambling industry. Hello. Hello, thank you for having us. A very enthusiastic hello from Nicholas Rominter. Also lovely to have you with us. Nicholas, for a lot of people, gambling does just mean playing the lottery and betting on the occasional big horse race. So it's not an issue for everyone.

Is there a particular group who are more at risk of gambling harm? Absolutely. So our research showed that men are twice as likely to bet more than women and young people are more likely to hide the amount they bet. And hiding of debts... and hiding of gambling is a real concern for us. And Raminta, for others, when it does become more harmful, that's what we're talking about today, it's really important to understand the root cause.

Yes, absolutely. Gambling can become problematic for many people. And I think as the data you discussed earlier suggests that many people who come to us and who call our national gambling helpline... experience some level of gambling related debt. And sometimes the cost of living and money worries can be the driver of people to gamble excessively because they're hoping to either win money and pay off their debts.

or to pay for everyday living expenses as the cost of living is increasing. So actually struggling with money can be a driver for... Spending too much on gambling. Absolutely. Well, while I was in witness, I did meet one man who's gambling more than the other people that I spoke to. Now, he didn't want to give his name, but he told me he does consider himself to be an addict. Online casinos.

That's pretty much it. So online, so you're sitting at home kind of gambling in the evenings? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it, yeah. How much do you think you spend? I prefer not to think about that. I honestly don't know. Do you worry that you might be spending too much? Not necessarily, no. No. What is it that you enjoy about online gambling? I wouldn't say so much enjoying. I think it's an addiction, isn't it? Personally.

But it's an addiction that I can afford, so it's not so much a worry. If that makes sense, that's it. Would you describe yourself as having a gambling addiction? Yeah, yeah. I'd say so, yeah. Have you ever tried to stop? Yeah. I wouldn't say it's as hard as trying to stop smoking or something, but if it got to the point where it was an issue, then I'd be able to stop, definitely. What's the point where you think it would be an issue?

Well, you can't afford to pay your bills or you can't afford to live. So that man says he... can afford it it's not causing him a problem for anyone who feels they have an addiction and they are worried about how much they're spending what are the signs that it's becoming a problem um

Yeah, so it's really important to check regularly how much you're spending on gambling and be really honest with yourself how much you're winning, how much you're losing and how much you can afford to spend. So chasing losses is one of the... big red flags. If you are trying to win that money back that you lost, it's probably, it has probably become problematic. If you're struggling to pay your mortgage or you...

struggling to pay your rent, you can't cover your essentials. That is also a problem that indicates gambling-related financial harm because gambling should only be done from your discretionary income. And also we very often hear from people who are borrowing or using credit to fund their gambling.

That's a big red flag because credit card gambling is now banned, but sometimes people use credit to cover everyday living expenses because they've gambled away their income that was set aside for essential bills. And we've mentioned that close to two thirds of people who called the National Gambling Helpline are in debt. How many calls are you getting? How much does that relate to?

So last financial year, we received 55,000 calls to the National Gambling Helpline, and that's a 25% increase on the previous year. Nicholas, online casinos, betting sites, adverts on social media, they make it easier to spend money on gambling, don't they? Because it's right there when you want it. I think that's exactly right. Particularly when we've got our phones in our pockets and we can just pick it out and choose.

from hundreds of different places to gamble. And we know that our research says that, especially while watching games, that increases your propensity to gamble. And watching games like sporting events games. Exactly, yes.

events is shown to increase the amount you're going to spend and giving the amount of marketing messages which might reach you during the game after the game it's quite understandable and that's why we really urge people to if you think you're starting have a gambling problem to seek help today.

OK, now before we go to our first caller, I do just want to mention that if you've been affected by addiction, details of help are available at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. Right, let's speak to Bianca now, who gambled for 12 years.

And Bianca, you've been in recovery for two years. Thank you for joining us. Hello. Hello. Thank you for having me today. Now, we heard from people earlier who played the lottery or bet on horses. For you, it was high street casinos. Why?

Yes, so land-based casinos seem to be the vice that drew me into addiction to gambling. I never personally was interested in sport, so I guess naturally sport betting wasn't going to be something that drew me in, but it was... I guess to say the glamour that is offered within a casino where they really present themselves as a luxurious setting to get to know the type of drinks you like, to get to know what you want in your sandwiches and when you are quite vulnerable.

and isolated on the outside world to find what I called a community. that also enabled my addictive personality. It seemed to be the perfect combination. So it was a space where you felt like you belonged. How big an issue did it become? How much debt did you end up with? um so over the years i guess uh listening to some of the the other people that you've spoken to i didn't necessarily see it as a problem because i was managing it you know i was earning a good wage and i actually said would

question and rationale it by saying I don't understand why people would think nothing of spending a thousand pound on a handbag and that doesn't get questioned yet I'm not allowed to spend my money on gambling because it's seen as unacceptable and I guess that was my rationale channel for managing it but over the years as you you've just mentioned that i was taking out lines of credit to pay my bills um

And then I sort of maxed out on that. So I started taking out payday loans, doorstep loans, selling things that I owned. I've never actually calculated the total amount. But what I would say, Felicity, is it is in the region of around £50,000. £50,000. Once you realised it was causing you harm and it was harmful for your finances, well, how did you realise and did you try and stop at that point?

I think I always knew that it wasn't right what I was doing, but I was caught in a trap cycle of compulsion. And it's as somebody's just mentioned there, you know, if if you lose, then you want to go back again to try and win back the money that you.

lost or borrowed or taken out on credit but then when you win you want to go back because you want to win more um and i think i started to realize it was a problem when i was spending longer in the casino so rather than going to binge for a couple of hours i would sit there for six seven eight hours and not even realize the time had gone by um and those are expensive hours yes yeah i'm not always Because, you know, we do win.

people who are addicts particularly within gambling only really ever talk about the wins because they're able to hide through their own mental health I had a very good poker face excuse the pun I was able to hide how I was really feeling inside but naturally you know that that's going to spill out into other areas of your life and cause challenges with your mental health in other ways. So did you try and stop?

I self excluded on a number of occasions. This is one of my... bugbears i guess with the industry i believe that because i was such a big revenue generator for my local casino that they didn't particularly want me to stop coming so the the boundaries that I was trying to set to stop myself from coming in um in one case they say okay we'll see you in six months Bianca or if I say I want to buy myself a 12 months they'll say okay well we'll do six and then if you want to add it on for

other six so there wasn't really a lot of management around my well-being I would say if I can be honest. Now you you ended up taking out an IVA an individual voluntary arrangement to get in control of your debt to cut your debt repayments. Is that something that helped? No. Again, it's something I've spoken quite openly about and it's something I really think that the FCA needs to tighten up because when I took out the IVA, it was for me to enable myself to ultimately be able to...

to pay the bills that would be coming out of control. And what in effect happened is a £1,500 a month monthly payment that collectively I had was reduced to £200 a month. If I had a good state of mind and I wasn't in the realms of addiction, then I see that that is a fantastic way to help people. But what I actually saw was that I've just gained £1,300 a month to gamble with.

So I had an IVA that was allowing me to reduce my outgoings, but I was still so much gripped by addiction that I just suddenly had all this extra money that I could go to the casino with. every single day and I look back now and it's it's awful but at no point was there any regulatory checks on what my bank statement said, the fact that I had high amounts of cash withdrawals, there was nothing really to regulate what could have caused my debt. Bianca,

Thank you so much. I want to bring in our panel here, so stay with me if you could. Nicholas, the gambling regulator told us in 2022 it strengthened its rules for what gambling operators look for that might indicate harm. Things like the time and the amount spent on it. You hear from Bianca there, she's self-excluded and that was just a temporary fix. What are the options that are available to people?

Absolutely. So well done for Bianca for trying to self-exclude. But as her example showed, there are kind of... ways around it, which can lead you back into gambling. In terms of just the general options available, you can use things like GamStop to exclude you from multiple organisations. You've got gambling blocks some banks will provide.

or with your credit card company and opt-out services, antivirus software where you can try and opt yourself out. You can put a notice of correction in the credit file. But then there's the range of death options. So if you do go and see...

debt help it's really important that you do declare if you've got a bit of a gambling issue even if you just think it's a maybe do tell them because it will affect the type of guidance they give you and they'll then explore with you both the formal solutions and the

informal solutions so in terms of formal solutions these are much more legally binding and they'll be discussing things like IVA which we heard earlier debt relief order bankruptcy etc and on the informal solutions as a bit more flexible here and there might be things like reducing the amount you're paying monthly or it might be things like writing off some level of the debt.

And Nicholas, the previous government estimated gambling was a problem for 300,000 people. It published a white paper, in fact, with plans including a levy on betting firms and stake limits for things like online slots. We've got a new government now. What's happening with that? It's a good question. I was very pleased to see that over 16,000 people inputted it into that white paper. And that paper very much flagged that...

Gambling has a negative impact on people's lives, impacting both families and communities, affecting their mental health and relationship problems. callers represent, there's also millions who can enjoy gambling and with no issues. So we'll just have to wait and see what they announce. Absolutely. Bianca, very, very glad to say that you've in fact now cleared your debt after getting support from a charity.

Yes, absolutely. Yes. So that was one of the major parts of my recovery and I guess setting healthy boundaries around what I was spending my time doing. So really proud to be two years into recovery now, which is brilliant. the implications of recovery for me are not just the financial you know I think it takes a long time to work around getting yourself back on top of your finances but yes I'm

Proud and happy to be in recovery now after lots of help and support from professional support and friends and family. Well, it's been incredibly good to talk to you, Bianca. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Let's stay, though, with that issue, that question of debt and credit.

Saturday's Moneybox, we heard from a lender who said around a third of people applying for one of its loans were rejected because of their level of gambling. And if you'd like to hear more on that story, just search for Moneybox on BBC Sounds. But it brought up that issue around credit. didn't it? Here's Ali, who we also featured on the programme. He's recovering from a 35-year gambling addiction. I would take out credit cards, take out a loan. When I max those out...

I would then put it on my mortgage. So I would say at any one time when I was putting stuff onto my mortgage, I would have probably around £50,000 worth of debt. It was like, it's like being in a cylindrical washing machine. It just goes round and round, you're robbing Peter to pay Paul, very lonely place. impacted my, well I lost my career from it through going bankrupt, I've lost friends, I've had to re-evaluate all my friendships and relationships and including with family.

How easy did you find it to get credit? In the early days, ridiculously easy. Even when I got payday loans, ridiculously easy. The bank that I banked with for 30 years, never questioned. the gambling transactions going through it the amount of refinances that i had Rominta, Ali was just building up debt, moving it onto his mortgage and then starting the whole cycle again. Is that a common story? That is very, very common.

People who reach out to Gamcare for help and support tell us they have a number of debts. And in fact, by the time they come to us, they probably have exhausted all lines of credit. They've been rejected by payday lenders. on and the reason is that sometimes people see this as a money issue rather than a gambling issue. So what we say is that people need to address their gambling first before they address their debts because if you're still actively gambling, no debt solution.

or debt repayment plan will be sustainable if a big chunk of your salary is still being spent on gambling. Well, UK Finance, which represents lenders, says its members must comply with strict regulatory rules when it comes to working out if someone... can afford credit. Ramita, we've touched on this a little bit already, but can you talk to me about the psychology of a gambling addiction? So if someone is struggling with debt, like Bianca, like Ali, they feel almost more pressure to gamble.

try and win their way out of it yes absolutely i think um people try to win the money back. It starts as a gambling problem, perhaps, but it is a vicious cycle. You build up debt and then you think that gambling is the only way out of that debt and you're trying to win that.

that money and many people would tell me that they thought if I just get that big win I'll pay off all my debts and in fact what happens and I think Bianca's story illustrates that is you know when when they win they just spend more money on gambling

They think that might be the point they stop. And then we heard from Bianca, didn't we? When you win, you want to win more. And when you don't win, you want to win it back. Of course, gambling doesn't just affect the people who are directly spending on it. It can have a huge impact on their families as well.

Let's speak now to someone we've agreed to call Rachel, although Rachel, that's not your real name. Thank you very much for being with us. Hello. Good afternoon. Now, you've been seriously affected by your ex-partners gambling. Tell me what the impact has been on you. Yeah, I think firstly, and from some of the conversation we've already had this afternoon, is kind of that wider shock. Gambling addiction is known as the hidden addiction. And so very often...

particularly flight families like mine, is it went completely under the radar. And it was something that it was only when it hit, as Rominta said, the absolute crisis. point in our family circumstances then even I became aware and at that point we were obviously at the very far end of that spectrum when it came to how it was going to impact not only

you know, my ex-husband's lives but our children's and both sides of our families, our friends, our workplaces and even, you know, our wider communities in that sense. And just a huge impact on you. you lost your home. Yes, yes. And there's no taking away of that far end of the spectrum when someone is at that level of gambling disorder because, you know, it is recognised as such.

And yeah, it takes so much away, takes everything. And, you know, and it took me to a very, very dark place, not only emotionally in Cyclops. psychologically, but physically in the end it got me because it took over every aspect of my everyday living as well. Can I ask what the debt total was when you found out? Roughly in terms of the whole debt, it was around £150,000.

The way you were describing before with Ali, it's how it's Peter to pay Paul. So you think about all the extensions of various means of ways to get credit. I didn't even own the household television. It had actually been bought on credit as a means of finding another way. for money to put into gambling activity such as like mobile phone contracts and you know all these different of extending that line before it became very, very apparent on the everyday finance, so to speak.

It was a very, very big web. When you discovered this very, very big web, did you have any idea what to do next? Well, your first instinct is to go to those local places where you think you have to start. And that, for me, was the bank, naturally, just because it was a case of trying to... unravel a lot of what I didn't know really existed. You're living in a bit of a fallacy. when you're connected to someone with gambling because it's trying to distort the truth from what's happened.

been yeah it's a weird place to be and what I found very very very challenging and very difficult was the fact that the very systems that I was turning to for support had such very little education or understanding, certainly a lack of compassion when it came to gambling harms to such a degree that the local bank manager said to me, well... How did you not know about this? That was his opening statement. I mean, it must have absolutely rocked your understanding of your whole life.

How difficult then was it to separate your finances? Did you discover that you were personally responsible for some of the debt? Absolutely. And particularly where you have these setups, relationships, particularly with intimate partners, are based... a lot on trust and certainly financially when you're building families together and you know you look at all the things that you build together as a couple and on an everyday financial basis and a lot of it is

integrated um it makes sense for it to be we've got a system that builds up around joint finance um so trying to separate that when it came to the gambling harm was exceptionally difficult um things basic things like gdpr so looking to explore utility bills i just i discussed the fact i couldn't even cancel the sky account um because of of gdp gdpr so that

That had a very, very overriding effect. I talk about the fact that I lost a lot of time and myself just in trying to rebuild, you know, just for that. basic emotional and financial security for not just myself, but for two very small children at the time. Rachel, thank you so much for speaking to us about everything that you've been through and the impact on you and your children. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Nicholas, really briefly, can you be liable for somebody else's debt?

If it's a shared debt, absolutely you can. And it can impact your credit score and your credit report. So it's really important to spot those financial connections. You can do that by looking at your financial credit score. report for free. Raminta if someone's listening to this and they're in a similar situation where can families turn to if they need support?

So, yeah, at Gamca, we also support people like Rachel, who have been affected by someone else's gambling, because we know also the financial burden on partners and family members can be really significant. So do get in touch with the national.

gambling helpline and we can also refer you into our free money guidance service if you need any help with budgeting or managing household finances yes because we talked about how lonely it can be to deal with debt and gambling clearly also just an incredibly huge shock for somebody

in Rachel's position. We're almost out of time in this programme. Let's just finish with a final thought from both of you. Raminta, if somebody has a gambling addiction, they're listening to this, it feels out of control, they've got debt, what should they do? Where can they turn? So please get in touch with us at Gamcare. We operate the National Gambling Helpline and it's a 24-7 helpline. The number is 0808 80 20 133.

Or you can contact us through our website, which is gamcare.org.uk. So you're not alone. We're here to support you. Nicholas, briefly, rebuilding your finances after debt can feel like a huge task. What should people consider? My first step, if you're struggling... with debt is go and use the debt device locator tool and money helper site. It's going to help you find free debt help, which is going to look at your specific situation and figure out what's going to help you today.

Thank you. Briefly, Howard has emailed. He says, I've been a member of Gamblers Anonymous for 44 years and we're seeing more and more young people coming through our door. It's so tragic. Gambling wrecks lives. This needs more attention. And he says, Gamblers Anonymous saved my life.

all that we've got time for in today's podcast but just a reminder again if you've been affected by any of the issues that we've covered help is available at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line thank you to everybody who took part and got in touch thank you

to our experts. We've been hearing from Nicholas Hill from the Money and Pension Service and Raminta Deliso from the charity Gamcare. You can catch Paul Lewis with Moneybox at midday on Saturdays or Moneybox Live is broadcast, well, live every Wednesday at three. if there's a story you'd like us to look at please do email us the address is moneybox at bbc.co.uk and include a phone number if you can

In this podcast, the producer was Sarah Rogers, the studio manager, Felicity Norton. Our editor is Jess Quayle. I'm Felicity Hanna. And this was a BBC News money and work production for BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. unintended consequences, and unimaginable pain. In The Human Subject from BBC Radio 4, we investigate the stories of the discoveries that came at great human cost, but ones that also saved countless lives.

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