Money Box Live: Cutting Energy Costs this Winter

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. When Vivint Smart Security gives you a smarter way to protect and its smart thermostats give you a smarter way to save, well... Get the smarter home system that just gets you at Vivint.com.

Hello and glad you can join us on this Moneybox Live podcast. Today we're talking about how to insulate yourself against high energy bills. Now last year we had a very bleak midwinter with seemingly no end in sight to the rising cost of gas. This is how some of the big announcements were reported across the BBC.

The increase in the energy price cap a whopping 54%. The average annual bill for a household in England, Wales and Scotland is going up to £3,549. I am terrified that when the winter comes... we're not going to have enough for the bills. The Chancellor has announced every household will receive a £400 discount on bills. Well, that was the help last year. Before we go any further, I thought we should just remind ourselves what's changed this year. So Moneybox reporter Sarah Rogers joins me now.

I know in my house we're definitely fighting over whether it's too soon to turn up the thermostat. It's not, is my position. Well, I've been looking at the electric blanket under my bed, just wondering what... time I should put it on. I haven't got it out yet. I've resisted it so far. I'm pretty sure we're not the only ones. Let's start with the good news then. The price cap dropped over the weekend. Yes and a reminder so the cap is the maximum your provider can charge per unit of gas.

and electricity so the amount a typical home in England Scotland and Wales will pay per year so that is set at just over £1,900, which is a drop of 7%. But say it with me, Fliss, if you use more, you will pay more. And if you're on a fixed tariff, then you'll pay the rate that you've fixed at, which might be higher. And if you're very, very lucky, it might be slightly lower.

So the amount we pay dropping is good news. Although, of course, those bills are still very high when you compare them to just a couple of years ago. The bad news is many people are actually going to end up paying more than they did last year. Why is that?

So the Resolution Foundation say that one in three households will end up paying more this winter. That's because, remember, that government help, that £400 payment, that's not going to be repeated. And on top of that, standing charges, which is essentially the amount that you pay to... stay connected they've been rising up around 60 percent over the last two years and they make around 300 pounds of your bill and those prices are set for us so putting a jumper on or keeping the heating off

that will not change them. Sarah, thank you very much. I suppose one of the big questions this time of year is when you turn your heating on. And we've been asking people in Greater Manchester exactly that. I did think about it yesterday because my mum was over for tea. and she's 81 but uh no sort of push into late october november as late as possible when it starts snowing i would imagine and i've got my sheds full of logs

and the light, the wood burner first. I've started already, actually, the last couple of nights. It's just got a bit chilly. I live on my own, so it's one person, small flat. Mine used to be about something like £30 a month. and I had no heating on in the summer and I rarely use any electricity at all and it was about £70.

Well, listening to that and joining me throughout the programme today are Matt Cole, who is head of the Fuel Bank Foundation, and Madeleine Gabriel, Director of Sustainability at the innovation charity Nesta. Good afternoon. Hi. Thank you very much for joining us. Matt, you run a fuel bank. What does that do? So a fuel bank is like a food bank, really, but rather than providing crisis food for people who are doing without.

food we provide crisis electricity and gas for people who are sadly living without. Typically, there are people who have a prepayment meter, and when there's no money left, it's really hard to top up that prepayment meter. And to date, we've helped over a million people who are in that situation, so it's a really big issue across the UK at the moment. Now, we're not into winter yet.

Not fully into winter. It is getting colder, but it's not full winter. Is this a quieter period for you? It's quieter than we expect it to be in the winter. That said, at the moment we're operating... in a way which feels like it was winter a couple of years ago. We're seeing literally hundreds of people seeking out our help every day. And these are people up and down the country who lead normal lives but are just finding that there are too many days left at the end of the month.

when you don't have the money you need for energy. And so actually people are doing without things like hot showers, doing without hot meals. And that's what fuel banks have to do to try and help plug that gap. Is it just low income households that come to you for support?

No, not at all. We have a whole mix of people. I mean, typically the people we see, you know, some are on low income. Some people have homes which are really, really hard to heat. So maybe their heating costs are greater, but we're seeing a real mix. What's really interesting actually is over the last couple of years, we've started...

see more people reaching out to us kind of at weekends and at night so people are in full-time employment but actually still don't have the money they need to keep their houses warm.

Matt, thank you. Madeleine, part of what Nesta does is test those energy saving methods that we all read about or see on social media. And I know we're going to try and do some myth busting at the end of the programme. But what are some of the best ways that people can prepare? Prepare for winter now.

Well, in winter, as your Voxpop said, most of the energy that we use is for heating. So it's really worth looking first at what you can do both to help your house lose less heat and to improve the efficiency of your heating system and cut waste. So we've been looking at things that you can do.

that we call set and forget action so you don't have to tweak them all the time you don't have to remember to do it every time you do something but it can help your heating system run more efficiently so for example if you've got a combi boiler turning down your boiler's flow temperature which means the temperature of the water in your radiator

tweaking a hot water temperature that the water that comes out of the tap and tweaking radiator valves in rooms you don't use so often could save the average household around 160 pounds a year and they're things you know you can just do free and very simply in your own home. And 160 quid a year, I mean, that's not something you can just ignore. When you talk about turning down the boiler flow temperature, does that take some special plumbing skill or, well, could I do it?

You could definitely do it, Felicity. It doesn't take special plumbing skill. It's really easy to do yourself. But we do know that a lot of people are...

quite nervous about touching their boiler. It's not something we're mostly used to. So at Nesta, we created a tool that we've put online at moneysavingboilerchallenge.com that talks you through the steps. But very basically, it means looking for either a dial or buttons on the front of your boiler, which will have a little... diagram of a radiator next to them and then just turning the dial down or pressing the buttons.

But as I've said, moneysavingboilerchallenge.com will talk you through all the steps with diagrams and help you do it. OK, I'll give it a go. And I've got your number if it doesn't work. Now, we're looking ahead to this winter. What about people who racked up debts last winter and still haven't cleared them?

Anastasia got in touch with us. She has cerebral palsy and was struggling with her bills. Sarah Rogers visited her at her home in Leeds to find out more about her situation. My electricity bill. The precise figure is 5,384.75 pence. This is something that's been accumulating. Do you know how you're... going to pay that energy debt? Well, I'm just hoping they might actually write it off. Are you brushing it under the carpet a little bit? I am brushing it under the carpet. I mean...

People with disabilities who, you know, electric wheelchair, electric bed, I have to use the dryer. I've got no choice. Is the washing line out of use for you? It's out of use because I can't manage it. It's the whole rigmarole of trying to reach and dealing with pegs. I'd like to not use the dryer on one level in order to cut my costs down.

I don't feel that I'm cut out to be disabled at all. I find it, you know, the truth is I find it really hard work. So that was Anastasia last year and she joins us on the line now. Hello, thank you so much for joining us again.

Oh, hello, Felicity. Yes, I am still struggling with my fuel bill, but I've actually been in contact. It's interesting that you've actually got... the fuel bank foundation there because they've actually been in contact with me so they're they're now uh as of um as of yesterday they're now actually supporting me and i've actually also been in contact with uh

change. I do actually know that Scope and Age UK are actually joining forces to try and get a social tariff. I personally think on an individual basis. or what I've read into it. I feel that a social tariff is the way forward. What frustrates me, you know, the broader picture and the government and whatever else is going on. that unless a person has a disability, they haven't actually got a clue. And it goes beyond electric wheelchairs. It's also...

the phone bill and having data. I was actually thinking of not having a telephone even, but I just can't because I've got to be in contact. No, no, of course. I'm living such a grim existence and you can only cut back so far. Absolutely. And just having one, I don't want this to sound dramatic, but this is absolutely true, just having one piece of bread.

a day I mean that's just beyond that's beyond ridiculous so there's only so much I can do and I feel deeply frustrated I don't have the family me because unfortunately I have a care background you know at the age of two weeks old. So there's literally no support there at all. You have, I mean, you paint a picture of your situation. I think a lot of people will sympathise with you. We're talking about...

The debts you ran up with your energy bill last year, you'd hoped it'd be written off. It wasn't, was it? Can I ask what you owe now? It's just over £6,000. I'm on the... I'm on the priority list not to be cut off, but it doesn't mean to say that just because I'm on the... priority list doesn't mean to say that it won't happen so I'm really worried about that I can't even open the door like properly so it might I have an electronic door so even that has a switch

So everything, everything that's there to help you uses energy, doesn't it? Everything uses energy is, you know, I mean, it actually came in, I've done some real... research. 1752, that's when electricity started. What I think is quite inspiring about your situation is that you are taking steps. So as you say, you're talking to the Fuel Bank Foundation. You've got yourself on the priority list. You've been proactive in kind of seeking out that help. And I want to bring the panel in on that.

And Anastasia, thank you very, very much. sharing your situation with us again and i hope that with the help of some of those organizations this is a better winter um i will just say the government department that deals with energy told us we are providing additional targeted support for the most vulnerable with three million households expected to benefit from the £150 warm home discount and millions of vulnerable households will receive up to £900 in further cost of living payments.

Anastasia makes a really clear point, doesn't she? It costs more to have a disability. She is getting that help, but what kind of support is out there for people with disabilities? It's a really good question actually. Like you say, people who have a disability, there's a chance they will use more energy. And often there's limited support available. You need to sometimes seek it out.

And what's really important is that you need to ensure that your energy company understands your situation because they'll be able to talk to you about additional support they may be able to provide. And I think that's the challenge that Anastasia has felt, that actually she's got a huge debt, but she hasn't been able to. get to the end of the line with it so that it hasn't been written off.

We're working with her at the moment to try and say, actually, what additional funds can we access? Because what worries us as a charity is that at the moment as it stands, Anastasia is living in a cold home and that's no good in summer and absolutely is terrible in winter. What about extra government support? We talked about how it's finished this year for the majority of people. What help is available for very low-income homes? So families on a low income, you can...

You may be eligible. In parts of the UK, it's automatically applied. In some parts of the UK, you have to apply for it. But there's something called the Warm Home Discount. which gives a top-up of around £150 to take the pain away from some winter bills. It's also really important, I think, to talk to your local council or maybe your housing provider if you live in a rented home, because the additional grants and support which they can provide are often targeted at...

families who are really struggling to make ends meet during the winter. So I'd always say best to talk to your local council in particular because there's often support they can provide too.

Absolutely. And that's what Anastasia is doing. Thank you. Now, on Saturday, Moneybox revealed that energy companies are holding on to more than £8 billion of their customers' money in credit. Now, that number came from Ofgem and it referred to the first three months of... the year. That's a period when typically those credits are being run down because people use more energy. We had

A huge reaction to this, including many saying their providers had given large credits back when they asked for it without any kind of fuss. But there were others in our inbox with different stories. Mandy is a good example. She says her energy company is holding on to... £1,400 of her money. Matt, how does she get that back? Wow, £1,400 is a lot of money, isn't it? The most important thing to do is to speak to your energy company.

and to understand why there's £1,400. It might be genuine. It may be that's the energy company's assessment of the credit you need to kind of get through the winter coming. The most important thing, have that conversation with them to understand exactly... how much credit should you be holding? And actually, if it shouldn't be £1,400, how much can be refunded? OK, we also had this message from Brian. Hi, Moneybox Live. Our question is, if energy companies...

Don't pay back excessive credit in a timely manner. Can customers just stop their direct debit until such time as they use up most of their credit? Matthew, quite a few people asking this. What's your answer? So yes, theoretically, of course, you can just cancel your direct debits. The problem is that if you don't speak to an energy company, they won't appreciate necessarily why you've done that.

Best thing, pick up the phone, drop an email, go online and talk to your energy company about, you know, you're worried that you've got an excessive credit. Can you reduce payments so you start to eat up that credit? It's best to have that conversation. I think if you just cancel your direct debit, there's a danger that they then get concerned about.

you know, not making future payments then start to go down a different route. So best to have that upfront conversation and work with the energy company to work out what you need to pay, what's the most reasonable amount to pay. Often it's as simple as providing a meter reading and so you can make sure the account is built up to date. so they can work out properly what you need to pay.

Yes, and Ofgep says customers have the right to request their balance back at any time and be refunded in a timely fashion. So you do have the right. You just maybe have to have to go through that conversation first. Matt, thank you. Let's take another call. John is on the line. John, good afternoon.

Hello. Hello. Thank you very much for joining us. I'm fascinated by you because you've done something a lot of us might wish we could do. And you've essentially given your energy company the sack, at least in the summer. Tell me what you've done. That's right, yes. Well, what I basically did was fit solar panels to my roof with a home battery for the house, which charges up from the sun during the day and you can use that then during the night as well.

But the killer thing is I also fitted a heat pump, which meant I could get rid of my gas boiler, and the heat pump runs. from the energy from the sun during the summer well certainly over from april till october i'm effectively off grid i don't pay any heating bills there's no need for me to import energy during that time

And in fact, I've got a surplus of solar energy during the summer, so I can sell that back to the grid. And that's initially why I contacted you, actually, because I thought that might explain some of why the energy companies are having, you know... credit in customer accounts because there might be quite a lot of people now doing exactly this effectively selling their energy back to the grid and building up credit in their account which they can then use in the winter.

to pay for the time when they will need to be importing energy from the grid. That is an interesting question. I've got to ask though John, how much did that substantial amount of work cost? Right, okay. Well, the initial quote for the thermal panels was about 11,000, and that was with a small battery, but I needed to increase the battery size because of the heat pump demand, which I worked out.

The heat pump, I got a grant of 5,000 for that. So it cost me 6,000 for the install, but that's because I needed to replace all my tatty old radiators, which needed replacing anyway.

so that's the sort of total cost but the thing is that that's going to pay for itself in about seven years i reckon and um it and carry on paying for itself i mean even the solar panels alone you get a 20 return on investment in effect per year on on fitting those solar panels and that will carry on you know in five years that will pay for itself and it will carry on paying for you know the things are guaranteed for 25 years so it will carry on doing that

You're clearly very good then at accessing the grants that are available. How did you find out what was out there? How did you decide that this was the investment and that was the help you could get? Well, I mean, it all started from when lockdown happened and I was, you know, realising that driving into Manchester every day wasn't such a good idea. And I was saving lots of money from obviously not paying for the petrol.

And I did think about, well, you know, maybe I should think about retiring early. And I looked into that and then realized that that was possible. And what I could do was raid the pension funds, basically. be able to afford buying the silver panels. And my boiler was an old gas boiler, which was inefficient and was, you know, needed replacing. And I thought, well, look into heat pumps.

And then I realized that the killer combination is the solar panels plus the heat pump. Because you drive the heat pump with the solar panels, you can get rid of gas. And, you know, it gives you about, I reckon, about a 75% saving. on what my previous combined gas and electricity bill would have been. You think you're saving 75%? Yeah.

I keep my house quite warm, so I'm about 23 degrees C all the time. I did that over, you know, well, ever since I've been here. But the bills were going to be looking about sort of... over four thousand pounds for when i had gas um but uh yeah so but yeah it does reduce it that much the solar solar pv the solar panels that generate about over 2 000 pounds 2300 or something a year um in solar energy that's free energy and if you charge your battery up

You charge a battery up at night at the cheap rate. You can use it during the day when the electricity is expensive, and that's another £700. So you've got there, you've got £2,700 of free energy. John, I don't know if you're inspiring or if you're just inspiring jealousy, but it's very, very good to hear your story. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm going to have to bring the panel in on this because we're coming up to the end of the program. John.

Really appreciate your story. Thank you. Madeleine, John, it sounds like he's used some of his tax pension allowance that you can take out to pay for that. It can cost some serious cash, can't it? How much does this kind of work cost?

Well, I think the average solar panel installation is around £7,000, and John's was obviously a bit more expensive than that. And we think the average heat pump costs around £13,500. But as John mentioned, there's a grant available to support with that. And actually last week, the Prime Minister... So people applying for the grant now can get more money off. We've also recently seen some heat pump installation companies, some energy companies, launching heat pumps that cost...

quite a lot less than the average so it is worth looking into if you have got some cash around to top up that installation cost. And it can be even more in Scotland as well can't it? That's right there's a higher grant available to some homes in Scotland. Scotland and some...

Some low interest, I think zero interest loan to make up the difference there. I want to put a question to you from Josephine who says, I'm interested in getting a heat pump, but I heard it means your heating needs replacing, which therefore makes it a huge job and cost. Is this correct?

Well, as John mentioned, you might need to make some tweaks to the heating system in your house. So heat pumps operate at a lower temperature, and that means your radiators on average need to be a bit bigger. You may find that some are totally fine, but one or two, as John mentioned, need replacing.

a water tank, so perhaps you've been using a combi boiler that doesn't have a tank, you'll need to get a tank as well. So there could be some tweaks that need doing, some houses might need more than others, but the price is quoted.

include all of that so um so you normally your quotation will include all of the changes that need to be done still out of reach for a lot of people though um yes but we think prices are coming down so not just with um different companies sort of you know trying to compete with each other, but also with the grant raising, as I've said.

The running costs as well seem to be improving a bit. So at the moment, electricity is about four times as expensive as gas and heat pumps are about at least three times as efficient as a boiler. But that could mean that the running cost could still be slightly higher for a heat pump.

However, there are some ways of bringing that down. What John talked about in terms of having solar or battery can make a huge difference. If the installation is really good, that can improve the efficiency. And we've recently heard another... energy company offering a heat pump tariff with really low prices for heat pump users. So I think we'll see some changes on the horizon that can bring down both the upfront costs and the running costs.

Great stuff. Matt, we've had a message from Kaz on Twitter or X saying, our oil is about to run out. The cost of filling the tank is almost £1,000 to get us over the winter. Cost of living over time has driven us both into overdraft. We simply can't afford it. We've tried with the local authority for support.

to no avail. What can we do? 64 and disabled, wife is 73. Very briefly, Matt, what kind of thing could CAS do? So again, speak to your local authority. There might be support they can provide. Also, maybe get in touch with Fuel Bank. We have a dedicated project called Heat Fund, which supports people exactly like cows, you know, folk who rely on heating oil and the tank is empty or soon will be. It's a real challenge, actually, in rural communities across the UK at the moment.

I bet. Kaz, there you go. Get in touch with Matt. Shall we finish with a quickfire round? Because there are loads of tips, tricks, hints, things like that being shared on social media and promising that they can help you save money on energy bills. And some of them are quite... I'm going to say out there. Things like tinfoil behind the radiators, bubble wrapping windows. I want to know how many of these actually work and which are just a bit...

misguided. So Madeline and Matt, I want to spring an energy saving quiz on you. I've got these suggestions. I almost wish I'd given you both buzzers. Here we go. Madeline, moving furniture away from radiators. Don't do it.

It might make a small improvement, but it could actually make things worse. It'll depend on how your room is set out in the first place. And really, it's very unlikely to make a substantial saving. OK, Madeleine, this one's for you as well. Bubble wrap on the windows, tinfoil behind the radiators. Well, tinfoil behind the radiators could save a little bit of energy, but it's likely to be only a few pounds for most people. So probably not a priority. Bubble wrap on the windows.

Yes, but you won't be able to see out very well. But you can get DIY window film that's really easy to install and can save you a few pounds. Or if you're a bit better of a DIYer and you've got single glazed windows, I know people who've had quite a lot of success with self-application. secondary glazing which you can also buy in DIY stores. Thank you. Matt is it cheaper to leave the heating on low all day or just turn it on when I need it?

Turn it on when you need it, and also turn it off before you leave the house, because there'll still be heat in the system, so actually switch it off before you leave the home. The house will stay warm whilst you're in it. Thank you. Matt, should I leave appliances on or should I turn them off and on every time I use them? I think it's always off, off, off. If you're not using it, switch it off. Madeline, can I save money using an air fryer or slow cooker instead of an oven?

Yes, you can. But it depends what you're cooking and for how many people. So an air fryer uses a bit less power and you normally have it on for less time. So if you're cooking maybe a chicken breast for 20 minutes in air fryer, that will cost you...

probably half of what it would cost in the oven for half an hour. But obviously you can only make a couple of portions at a time. So it really depends on who you're cooking for. It does make a good fish finger though, doesn't it? All right, Madeline, what works? What is cheap? What can listeners do right now?

Well, given that we're going into winter, I think good things to do are to prepare. So get your boiler serviced if you haven't, because you don't want it breaking down in winter. You can also ask your boiler engineer about other things you could do to improve your heating system, for example, balancing it so that all the radiators are...

sort of heat to the same level and look at draft proofing so if you've got gaps around your window frames or around your letterbox or so on it's a really good time to think about improving some of those things which can be done DIY and for not very much money.

In a word, what's your top tip for anyone worried about their bills? Don't worry. Talk to your energy supplier now if you're concerned. There's things they can do in the autumn. It's much easier to do it in the autumn rather than in the winter when you're in a real problem.

Matt, thank you very much. Well, that is all we have time for in today's Moneybox Live podcast. Many thanks to everyone who's been in touch and, of course, to our extremely energetic experts. I was joined today by Madeleine Gabriel from the charity Nesta and Matthew Cole, head of the Fuel Bank.

foundation. One quick text from Scott who says after Spain this winter for nearly three months one way of keeping my bills down I'll save about 500 quid on my electric bill by not being here trying to keep warm. I don't know if that's a way just to make a three month holiday sound a bit cheaper.

In this podcast, the producer was Sarah Rogers, production coordinator Luke Smithhurst, studio manager James West, our editor is Jess Quayle, I'm Felicity Hanna, and this was a BBC News money and work production for BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to Nature Bang. I'm Becky Ripley. I'm Emily Knight. And in this series from BBC Radio 4, we look to the natural world to answer some of life's big questions.

Like, how can a brainless slime mould help us solve complex mapping problems? And what can an octopus teach us about the relationship between mind and body? It really stretches your understanding of consciousness. With the help of evolutionary biologists. I'm actually always very comfortable comparing us to other species. You never really know what it could be like to be another.

Creature. And spongologists. Is that your job title? Are you a spongologist? Well, I am in certain spheres. It's science meets storytelling. with a philosophical twist. It really gets to the heart of free will and what it means to be you. So if you want to find out more about yourself via cockatoos that dance, frogs that freeze, and single-cell amoebas that design border policies, subscribe to Naturebang. From BBC Radio 4, available on BBC Sounds. Bye.

culture, and craft beer? Head to Fort Collins, Colorado. Start your day with a hike around the stunning Horsetooth Reservoir or a trip to the farmer's market. Quench your thirst at one of Fort Collins' world-class breweries. Then soak up live music all night at a local venue. Fort Collins is a bike lover's paradise with more than 285 miles of trails and lanes. Fort Collins, Colorado.

Where open spaces create open minds. Start your adventure and book your stay now at visitfortcollins.com. When Vivint Smart Security gives you a smarter way to protect and its smart thermostats give you a smarter way to save, well... That's a smarter way to live. Get the smarter home system