Money Box Live: Co-parenting Finances

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Hello there are approximately four million children in Great Britain whose parents are separated. Now when couples break up they cut their finances apart but for parents there's that ongoing relationship that comes with supporting children. Emotionally, but also financially. In today's Moneybox Live podcast, we're asking, how do you manage that? I think you have to naturally come to an agreement that the children come first, but that's the first and foremost.

Sometimes, of course, it breaks down and parents fight over the finances, leaving the children coping with the fallout. Sometimes one parent has to ask the state to step in and make their ex pay support. And there are big changes coming to how that's enforced.

We'll cover that later on in the programme. But many parents are sharing care and they're trying to find ways to make the finances and the new circumstances work. And this programme is all about that. Our first caller is Emma from Yorkshire. You've got two teenagers and you separated from their father over seven years ago, I think. Good afternoon.

Hi Felicity. Thank you for joining us. So you co-parent with your ex you've got equal custody. How do you agree things like the finances and what kind of things come up? So, well, for spending, really, I get monthly child benefit because that's the way it was set up at birth, really, when we were together. But I suppose we do it in quite an amicable way.

month like I'll note down any additional expenditure that I have and send the list through to my ex-husband and then he'll calculate what he's spent and gives me a contribution and usually half of um of what the cost was overall so yeah so we tend to do it like that and try and give each other a little bit of slack because I know at some point we'll need it to go the other way whenever we have big expenditures such as like...

when my boiler needed replaced or he had to get a new car um so so we try and work it out that way really and just you know put the children at the center so you must be in touch pretty regularly to talk about money as well as to talk about what's happening at school and parents evening and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, very much so. And yeah, we just... try and keep the children out of it they are teenagers now but you know we try and

not get them involved in any kind of financial touring and throwing and just be able to work it out as adults, really. Now, when you were setting this up, when you were agreeing this, when you first broke up did you turn to a mediator did you get legal advice or did you just sit down and decide this is how we want it to work yeah we we basically did that and and it was trial and error really um you know there were a few

uh arguments along the way probably you know from both sides really and and it really was you know a number of times sitting down and having those really difficult conversations face to face with just always trying to keep the relationship with our children at the center it's good to hear how centered around the children it is what about the fact that teenagers can be really expensive how do you manage unexpected costs like a school trip

Yeah, well, I manage all the school finances, so it's all on apps these days. So I pay those out and then... we always have like a date the 10th of the month that I'll send through any expenses to him and then he'll reimburse them my daughter's you know she's had some driving lessons and he's paid for them but then I've paid for other things so we just try and work it out really amicably like that and just

think what do the children need rather than, you know, what I might need really or what he might need. Do you end up with spreadsheets and kind of accounts and cross-referencing or do you just kind of take each other on trust? No, we just take each other and trust, really. And I think, you know, that's been the key. And I do hear from other people all the time, like, oh, I wish I had this sort of relationship with my ex.

and you know and they'll say things to me like oh he's always starting arguments or put me down in front of the children and I just think in those situations all you can do is keep your side of the street clean and try and work on what you're doing, really. And I know it is quite difficult, but I just think at the end of the day, is it really worth it? you know, to go down that path. And it would only, you know, we spent years raising our children together.

you know it would only have a negative impact on them and you know the relationships that we have in them if we were to you know deal with this in any other way and sometimes that means you know biting your tongue a little bit on both sides really

Emma, that's fantastic advice to start off the programme. Thank you so much for joining Moneybox Live today. Listening to Emma, joining me today to answer your questions are Leah Caldwell, who's Director of Mediation First and also Treasurer on the Board of the... Family Mediators Association, and Gemma Hope, who's a solicitor at Family Law Partners in Brighton. Good afternoon.

Hi. Thank you both very much for joining us. Leah, a lot of people will understand the idea of a legal route to settle these questions and going through lawyers and court. Can you explain what mediation involves? yeah of course so I think when people separate there are decisions to be made and fundamentally speaking there's two main ways those decisions will be made one is if people can make those decisions together

And what that might look like is making decisions, as Emma said, just with your ex by sitting down at the kitchen table and having a conversation. Another way still of making decisions together is to use solicitors to facilitate.

negotiations between you which typically looks like correspondence back and forth that the solicitors are doing mediation and the way that I describe it going back to that first example of two people sitting at the kitchen table is that a mediator pulls up a chair and they help to manage conversation by giving information, giving structure and giving a process and keeping people focused on the things that it's going to be constructive to talk about.

What kind of questions, Leah, do parents need to think about when it comes to planning those future costs of shared children? So I think the kinds of questions will be as Emma mentioned and you talked about, which is who shares what costs, what happens if something comes up, how you share responsibility for things like school uniforms. holidays and day-to-day costs of children but actually usually those

kind of conversations don't sit in isolation because if people are separating, there's usually a much wider landscape of finances to consider. And that's one bit of the jigsaw. So usually it will include a wider look at things like pensions. property and the conversations about how people contribute financially for the children sit within that. Gemma, am I right in assuming then that you get called in if mediation fails?

Yes, that can be one route where a lawyer may need to help separated parents. But also... Getting legal advice throughout the mediation process can actually assist in some cases as well. I really feel mediation is such an important process for separating parents. But yeah, legal advice and mediation, they can really complement each other and the legal advice can help parents in mediation make more informed decisions. It can also help them feel a bit more confident, a bit more empowered.

to engage in the mediation discussions they need to have. Okay, and is there a legal document that parents can draw up to formalise how they're going to manage things in the future? It really depends on the situation, so it's important to get legal advice to see what steps, if any, they can take to formalise matters. For example, if they're married and getting divorced, it's likely to be advisable.

for them to get what's called a consent order in place. And that is a document that would make their financial arrangements legally binding. OK, good to know. Thank you. Let's hear from another parent. Now, this is a tricky programme because we're asking people, obviously, to talk about their personal finances, but also how they're dealing with their children's other parent.

Understandably, a lot of people who got in touch don't want to be identifiable. This dad asked to remain anonymous, so his words are being spoken by one of our producers.

Finances are the most difficult bit of separation and divorce. Even where both parties agree on everything and the split is mutual, finances for kids are the most contentious point. We found it easier for one person to be responsible for each area of expenditure For example, I do all the school finances online, my ex does all the clothing. It's probably even easier if one person does all of it, but all too often that just falls on the woman and we wanted to avoid that.

I spend less each month, but pay my ex an amount that covers the difference. We reconcile any overall differences every quarter or so. We're both so aware that this is predicated on us both having a decent income, which means we can afford to true up. rather than be dependent on a single sum. We're both putting money into a savings account for university. I'm thankful that we can come to this arrangement. I know far too many people who shoulder the burden by themselves. Some administratively.

most financially. Leah, finances are the most contentious issue for separated parents. Do you think he's right? Yes and no. I think probably the most contentious issue is communication. And I think if there isn't helpful communication, that can make everything else a lot more difficult.

and probably make things like finances more difficult. But I think going back to what Emma said earlier, it was really interesting the language that she used, such as amicable and cutting each other some slack. So actually, if you can find a way of communicating... in that way with your ex.

I think that's the bit that makes everything a lot easier. I think sometimes finances can feel like the trigger, but actually it's the underlying emotions about how you're communicating with each other that actually create the barriers. Right. Leah, I was very interested to hear that, Dad. say they have these ongoing meetings to reconcile the numbers. It's almost like they're managing their children's costs like a business. Should other parents try to achieve that?

I think so, yes. And I think what we try to do in mediation is to encourage rational thought. So emotions are going to be there for people that have separated. And it's OK. It's going to be part of the journey. But if those emotions are what is driving your decision making and your communication with your ex.

it's pretty likely that you're going to derail. So I think trying to engage that rational business-like element of communication is a really helpful way to think about how you make these decisions with an ex. Gemma, do you think it's easier to be...

so calm about it when you have a higher income? Do you think that if both parents are struggling to manage their household bills, things just inevitably get a bit more tense? Yes, that can certainly be the case. And I think, you know, in that sort of situation. where money is a lot tighter, it is more difficult. There's less to go round and there can be harder decisions to be made.

And linked with that, like Leah said, is the emotions around that as well and people feeling very financially vulnerable. Absolutely. Leah, if there's a main carer, so if there's one parent who's doing most of the care for a child... Is there somewhere they can get advice on how much the other parents should be contributing?

I think the starting point is probably to go to the Child Maintenance Service and they've got an online calculator that you can use as a reference point to find out how much they would be saying the other parent should be paying you. However, for me, it's a starting point.

point because it goes back to constructive conversations and actually if you can get to a place where maybe you use that maybe that's all you need but actually it's more about being able to work collaboratively with the other person which might look going a bit deeper might look look like look like you're

considering all of the circumstances which includes both of your respective incomes your disposable income and how much the children actually cost so a more forensic look so the child maintenance service is probably a good starting point but it shouldn't necessarily be the end of the conversation Yes, then sit down around that kitchen table potentially and have those more forensic discussions.

Yeah, and putting children right at the centre of that, because I think it's really important to think that children will need to have similar experiences with both parents. So both parents will need, if possible, to be able to take them to places like the zoo or even on holiday. holiday. So thinking a bit wider and putting the children right at the heart of what you're discussing, I think is really important.

That's a really good point. Well, let's hear from another parent. I spoke to Mark before we came on air. Now, he's in the army and his children live full time with their mother. He told me about how much he currently pays. When your ex does start working, would you expect, allowing for costs like childcare, for example, would you expect that you would contribute less? Yes, that is something we have spoken about.

sliding scale so just because she's earning a salary doesn't mean it's enough to still cover the bills and and others other stuff so as the years progress her salary should go How easy is it to have those conversations with somebody that you're separated from? Yeah, I bite my tongue a lot I think. What would your advice be for anyone who's separating and just beginning those conversations? your head.

Leah, Mark says he bites his tongue a lot. Emma at the beginning has used exactly the same phrase. And it's probably true for Mark's ex as well, isn't it? Because I was thinking it can be hard for couples to talk about money, let alone two people who've separated. What are your tips? So I would say my tips are, I think as mediators, we create two main focuses when we're trying to have constructive conversations. I think the first is we try and encourage people to think about the future.

It can be really tempting, I think, when you've been through a separation where potentially there's conflict, there's raw emotion for people to cast back on what's happened. But it's a truism, but you can't change the past, but you can make a difference about what you do going forwards. So helping and tuning people into actually what happens next. The other thing.

that we encourage people to do as mediators and I think we've heard it throughout with your callers is to stay focused on your children what it is that they need for you from you and one of the questions that I will quite commonly ask in mediation is if you're child was coming to you in 10, 20 years time.

What words would you want them to be using when they describe their childhood? What memories do you want to be making for your children right now? So tuning into that as a real positive, constructive way, I think, to pull conversations forward.

I think this is the most personal finance story we've covered on this programme. It's interesting, isn't it? Mark got that pack from the military with 40 questions to work through together. That sounds really useful. Is there anything like that that's available more generally? So there's CAFCAS. CAFCAS are the welfare service connected with the courts and they've got a parenting plan that's available online. So I just checked it on.

out before i came on air you have to register but then when you register it takes you through online and asks various questions um there'll be the more practical aspects like the time the children spend with each of you um and how holidays and special events are managed. But it also asks questions about how you intend to communicate.

when you will communicate, what method you will use. And it also encourages you to think about how, so ground rules for the ways in which you'll communicate together. Something else that the parenting plan does, which I think is wonderful, is it also encourages parents to think about how they will listen and hear to their children, hear from their children within their process of decision making. And that's something that...

I'm a big advocate of. Thank you. Gemma, this isn't the case with the dad we just heard from, but what if separated parents make their arrangements and then one goes on to have children with a new partner? What if that changes the amount they feel they can afford to pay?

Yeah, life will just throw up so many challenges. So I think really separated parents, they need to kind of expect that there's going to have to be some flexibility possibly to the original plan. They're not going to be able to... plan ahead for every eventuality. So it's really important to schedule in some reviews to financial plans.

And when you're scheduling, fix times in advance so you don't catch someone at a bad time and you both feel prepared for those discussions. You get a bit of a run-up for it. Exactly. It's a good tip. Leah, we heard Mark talking about... how the amount of money he might need to provide might change. And the amount of money you need to spend on children does change. Does that get factored in during mediation?

Yeah, absolutely. So Gemma talked about reviews. I will always say when you're making plans about children, it's a work in progress because life changes. You could have a change of job, your child could... suddenly decide that they want to go on a skiing trip um we have to be able to to roll with that so i think that comes back to a big factor in all of this is not just making plans but

in how you are going to communicate going forwards and make changes to plans make new decisions going forwards and you can do that by having expectations that you set of each other ground rules so it's still part of a planning process it just goes a bit

wider it's a bit more creative making plans for when the plans need to change yes we've heard from a number of separated parents who are managing the money through staying in touch through mediation it's not always possible is it sometimes one parent doesn't step up doesn't pay

their fair share and we're getting some emails in on that Anna's email to say that her ex doesn't contribute in a meaningful way she says when my son was younger it was infuriating he'd come home with another band t-shirt when he needed

socks or pants or trainers but she said I think it's almost easier when you have no expectations at least you know what you're budgeting for and Emily's email to say I feel so sad listening to the first caller because my experience was such a contrast to that but I'm glad that couple and their children have managed it so well. Thank you for those messages.

When things break down between parents, sometimes they use the official child maintenance service. And Moneybox Live producer Kath Patterson has just joined me in the studio. Kath, how many children receive their support through the CMS? Well, Fliss, around... Around 950,000 children are covered by CMS arrangements. When parents use this system, it works out how much the paying parents should be contributing. And it has two different kinds of arrangements.

where it tells the parents how much to pay and they arrange it now that's known as direct pay or it also has a collect and pay service where it takes the payment and then passes it on to the other parent but it's worth mentioning that since the service began in 2012, more than £590 million has built up in unpaid maintenance. That is a lot of money owed to a lot of children. What kind of enforcement powers does the CMS have when parents don't pay?

Fliss, it is a lot. Around 10,000 parents a year don't pay maintenance, according to the government. And the CMS does have powers. It can go through courts to deduct cash from bank accounts, disqualify someone from driving or from holding a passport in extreme cases it can also prosecute a non-paying parent But at the moment, the CMS has to apply for a liability order to the Magistrates Court in England and Wales.

or the Sheriff Court in Scotland, and that application can take up to 22 weeks. The government says it's going to change the system, so it can enforce penalties much more quickly. So we're looking at six... weeks instead of six months now those changes will have to go through parliament before anything changes and i should say this is across great britain so work is ongoing with the scottish government over how it can be

can be implemented there. But there is one big change that's coming in next week. Yes, at the moment parents have to pay a £20 application fee if they want the CMS to get involved because the other parent isn't paying. Now that fee... is being scrapped from the 26th of February. That will be a definite help. You said £590 million is built up in arrears. That is money that children have gone without. What does the government say about that?

and pensions about this because it oversees the CMS a spokesperson told us the child maintenance service is an important safety net for separated families and child maintenance payments through the CMS as well as family arrangements helped to keep around 160,000 children out of poverty each year and it highlighted those plans to accelerate enforcement when parents don't pay. Kath, thank you very much indeed.

There are so many practical, financial, difficult things for parents to work out after a split. So let's just finish by hearing from Ian. He lives abroad and he and his wife divorced more than a decade ago. His children are adults now, but he had this advice for separating.

parents? I think you have to naturally come to an agreement that the children come first. That's the first and foremost. For me, it was just a matter of, you know, I learned through my own experience about having access to the children being the most important thing.

And for me, what I'm seeing now, as I said, we separated 11, 12 years ago. The oldest is 22. And they remember it. They remember... to some extent they might not show you at the time but they remember the visits that that i've been making over the years the fact that i was available over the years and i'm sure they remember things from the other side as well which i'm which i'm not aware of so as a parent

um as i said at the beginning the the children are at the forefront and they will remember all of the things that you did for them over the years the support whether it was visible or maybe slightly invisible they will certainly come remember it later on

Quite wise words from Ian there. Leah, obviously we couldn't hear directly from children in this programme, but it is important, isn't it, to remember that children do suffer, obviously if there's not enough money for their needs, but they can struggle emotionally. too, if parents are fighting over finances. Yeah, absolutely. And it's why within mediation, we have child inclusive mediation. So where it's appropriate, we can invite children into the mediation process.

primarily so that they are included in decisions that are being made that affect them. And that promotes their... Article 12 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, but actually research has shown that it's really beneficial for their mental health because they find it validating and cathartic to be consulted when decisions are being made that affect them.

Gemma, what's your key advice briefly for anyone listening who is going through that process of trying to work out costs with an ex? I would say try and work together, not against each other. You might not be... partners anymore but you are still parents and therefore and you know I think a running message throughout this has been the need to put the children first.

I think that has been the message throughout, doesn't it? Leah, it can be a very emotional time. As a mediator, what's your main tip for just keeping these arrangements calm? I think it's the... The common message throughout this, but parenting is one of the most important jobs we will have.

It's potentially one of the hardest. I think my son is the most unforgiving, unrelenting boss I've ever had. So it's really tricky. It's really tricky to be a parent. It's really, really tricky to make decisions with your ex. So be kind to yourself and recognize that. But try and pick your children first.

That is all we have time for in this Moneybox Live podcast. Thank you to everybody who shared their very personal stories with us. And thanks, of course, to our experts. We've been hearing from Leah Caldwell, who's director of Mediation First, and Gemma Hope, who's a solicitor at... family law partners in Brighton. If there's a financial story you want Paul Lewis, me or the team here to take a look at, do email us. It's moneybox at bbc.co.uk. Please include a phone number if you can.

In this podcast, the producers were Kath Patterson and Izzy Greenfield. The production coordinator was Sandra Hardiel. The studio manager was Amy Gallica. Our editor is Jess Quayle. I'm Felicity Hanna, and this was a BBC News Money and Work production. BBC Sounds. Hi, I'm Marianna Spring, the BBC's disinformation and social media correspondent. And I've learned firsthand that the online world can be a breeding ground for hate.

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