Money Box Live: Apprenticeships

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and make a smart move in under 10 minutes. That's policygenius.com. Hello, today on the Moneybox Live podcast, we're looking at apprenticeships, paid employment with training on the side. The government wants more young people to be offered gold standard apprenticeships. It was one of the buzzwords at the Labour Party conference as they ditched the ambition for half of young people to go to uni.

We will scrap that target and replace it with a new ambition that two-thirds of our children should go either to university or take a gold standard apprenticeship. Well, many parents and young people like the idea of not paying university fees, but actually earning an income instead. With an apprenticeship, you're learning and you're earning and it gives you the experience and the education as well.

In my opinion, it's the best option, really. And James Reid, the boss of Reid Recruitment, told Radio 4's Today programme on Monday that apprenticeships are one way to protect the next generation against AI stealing their jobs. If I was a parent of someone of teenage years, I would look at that really seriously and think about how can I encourage my child to do a gold standard apprenticeship and or a degree that was vocational in focus. So something like engineering or medicine that led.

directly into work. So today on Moneybox Live we're looking at the finances of apprenticeships from how much they pay to what they can mean for a family's cash. As always we want to hear from you. Are you a young person or a parent considering an apprenticeship or a degree apprenticeship?

Is the appeal earning an income or is it something else? Maybe you've been an apprentice and you want to share your thoughts on how the finances shake down. Well, get in touch. You can email moneybox at bbc.co.uk or you can send a voice note or message on WhatsApp. The number is 033 06 783 183.

Now, let's begin with some teenagers who are just starting out. I've been out to Bolton College to speak to people there who've all recently begun apprenticeships in various trades. They spend a fifth of their time at the college and the rest with their employer. And I started off with a very quick... course in bricklaying so okay we're in a really busy looking room tell me what's in here so this is

where we do all the practical side of the apprenticeship. Yeah, there's just like small bits of wall being built everywhere. Yeah, it's just to give you that practice. Is it a bit disheartening taking it down again at the end of the day? Yeah, it's a nightmare.

Because you build it all up and then it looks great and you're really happy with how it's gone and then you just have to kick it all down and it's never happened. My name's Chris, I'm 19 and I'm doing a Brit Lane apprenticeship. And how's it going? It's all right, yeah. One day, day release stuff, so...

Just come here on a Monday, do it till five and then it's done. So it's two years altogether. Was the salary part of the reason that you decided you wanted to do an apprenticeship? Yeah, I went to sixth form and I was quite good in school and everything. I've always found I've been better off working with my hands, and the money is quite good, especially for someone my age. I am earning more than all of my friends, whether they're working or at uni and stuff, so it's massive.

Pro. And I suppose at the end of it, you're going to have a good career with a good income. Yeah, I'll be set up. Once I've got the trade and the qualification, that's me. Then I don't need to do anything else. I can just work. Even if I choose to do something else, eventually I've still got this.

with an apprenticeship you're learning and you're earning and it gives you the experience and the the education as well so for in my opinion it's the best option really hi i'm em i'm 19 and i'm a painter and decorator apprentice I'm Emily, I'm 17 and I'm a painter and decorator apprentice. And how are you finding it? Pretty interesting. There's a lot more aspects to it than I thought there would be and it's quite enjoyable.

One big attraction is presumably also that, unlike school, you get paid. Yeah, the money's a big thing in it, isn't it? I'm only a first-year apprentice, so I'm on £7.55 an hour. Was it part of the attraction to you for doing an apprenticeship? 100%. I didn't want to start off not making money and just full-time education. I'd rather do both at the same time because you're being taught whilst also earning money. How do you have such lovely nails when you are painting and decorating?

I think I'm just used to it because when I started off, I'd always have nails. So when I asked them, can I have nails? They were like, yeah, as long as you can grip a ladder safely and I can. My name is Barnaby Hunt. I am 17 years old and I'm on my first. year of roofing the apprentice slate and tail. So how many days are you in college? Every fifth week I do a full week. Why did you decide to do an apprenticeship rather than say school or full-time college? To support my dad's business and

grow further on into the future. So your dad's in this industry already, is he? Yeah. Was earning an income part of the reason you decided you wanted to do an apprenticeship rather than go to college or school full-time? A little bit of both. I want to help my dad because he's getting to the age now where he's slowing down and yes for the money so I can help and provide and progress. You're so much more switched on than I was at 17.

Thanks to Bolton College and its students for showing me their work. And I love that Emily is up and down ladders, but still with fierce nails.

Listening to that are today's experts. I'm joined by Ben Rowland, the author of Understanding Apprenticeships and also the chief executive of the Association of Employment and Learning Providers, which is a trade body for organisations that train apprentices, and also Rachel Keyes. I'm also very happy to be joined in the studio by Kira Lynchie, who recently completed her degree apprenticeship. Hello, thanks all for being with us.

lovely to be here um kira i'll come to you properly later on in the program but maybe just set the scene for us by explaining why you decided on an apprenticeship yes so for me it was the opportunity to earn while learning get that hands-on experience in the workplace at such a young age and have no student loan at the end of it and a degree. You went straight into it at 18 and came out with a degree. Aged what? 22. It was a four-year course.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with that, is there? Ben, for people unfamiliar with this whole world, can you just explain what an apprenticeship is and how it works? Yeah, of course. So as you've kind of been getting a feel for, it's an amazing way to start your career because it is a real job where you're getting paid. But it's not just a real job. you've got active supervision so whether it's your employer or whether it's your training provider

who is making sure that you really are learning and progressing fast and really helping you. And you're getting that off-the-job training. So that 20% of time where you're not on the job, you're actually getting the formal underpinning instruction. And that's all...

It's all designed to a standard, which has been put together by employers from the industry, which means you're not just getting... a flying start to the job with the employer you're doing the apprenticeship with but you're getting set up for your whole career because you can take that apprenticeship to any other employer and they will know that it is

to borrow the Prime Minister's phrase, a gold standard for proving that you really can do the job. We've heard that phrase a few times, Ben, gold standard. How can a young person spot if an apprenticeship is gold standard and they aren't just going to be used for cheap labour?

Well, it's not straightforward. I would love it if there was an easy way to do it. But there's lots of things that you can do. You can look at Ofsted ratings, but bear in mind sometimes they're a bit out of date. You can look at the websites. Al...

Talk to other people who've done the apprenticeship. That's possibly the best thing. And then if you do go and apply for an apprenticeship, you know, I'd really encourage people to think that it's them, you know, interviewing and assessing the employer and the training provider as much as the other way around.

really get a feel for, you know, the key question to ask is how much are you going to invest in me if I'm successful in getting this apprenticeship and then follow your gut instinct on how you feel about somewhere.

Well, we've had an email from Jim who says apprenticeships are the only way forward for young people. In the 1950s, my father always said, whatever you do, get a trade. But Rachel, people do... tend to think of traditional trades when it comes to apprenticeships, but there's actually a really broad offering now.

There really is, yeah. You can now do apprenticeships in tech, healthcare, finance, creative industries and much more. Earn while you learn and build those real world skills. And are you tied to the employer after the apprenticeship? no you're not tied to the employer at all um there's no guarantee of a role at the end of it though um it really depends on the company and their business need and what vacancies they've got but at the end of the apprenticeship you are going to be

be you know valuable you've got those valuable skills and experience that make you highly employable. Well you're all selling them very well but let's hear a quick comment from Isosa who's applied for over 50 apprenticeships and not yet been successful.

I've been searching for over a year, mostly no luck. It's just hard seeing loads of rejection emails and it's mostly AI generated because I know there are like thousands of applicants for each role. Ben Sosa told me he's studying at college instead now. He's obviously very disappointed he's not found the apprentice role for him. It can be really hard to get this kind of opportunity, can't it? It's really hard. And that's because...

Lots of young people are sort of ahead of the curve. They have spotted that apprenticeships are a really good way... start your career for all the reasons we've been talking about but we don't have enough employers coming forward with with opportunities we don't have enough employers who

are kind of brave enough to take that leap and take a chance with someone. And what we find is that people who do, employers who do take a chance, find that it's unbelievable and never look back. So we just need more people to do that.

More people to do that. I mean, you know, we're talking a lot about apprentices. We're talking about it today. There's obviously a political focus on it. The number of apprentices have been pretty consistent in recent years, but they were actually higher before the apprentice levy was introduced in 2017. Yes, they were. I mean, the government is obviously really keen to see those numbers go back up. So, I mean, for people listening, I think they should be in no doubt that...

This government and indeed any government that comes in in four years time will be mad keen on apprenticeships. They're really trying to figure out ways to make them work because they are. so valuable what what i would say about the numbers kind of uh plateauing uh is that

perhaps before the apprenticeship levy, that the rigour of the programmes wasn't as good, and so the reputation with employers wasn't as good. If you look at the kind of employers who are using apprenticeships now, they're some of our very best companies and employers.

who've completely embraced the model, but because they're harder to do, it means perhaps they're, you know, harder to get going. Can you explain the levy, the apprenticeship levy? Because a lot of people will be listening and wondering, well, who does pay for these courses? So the main thing is, if you're the learner, you don't pay. It is paid for by the government, really. And they raise money in two ways. One is they raise it through the apprenticeship levy, which is for the largest employers.

And they take a small extra tax from those largest employers and put it in a pot, which then is available for those employers to use on apprenticeship training. But they also provide some money from general taxation as well. where they put that in for those companies who are too small to pay the levy, they still get apprenticeship training in most cases for free, particularly for young apprentices.

Well, on the number of apprenticeships available, all UK governments have told us apprenticeships are a priority, which is very much what you're saying, isn't it, Ben? They say they're continuing to support employers. The Department for Work and Pensions highlighted the introduction of foundation apprenticeships.

which give employers more financial support when they do take somebody on. Rachel, we are a personal finance programme. We're not an education programme. So let's really dig into the money now. One of those Bolton apprentices talked about earning... £7.55 an hour. What are the rules around paying apprentices? What can they earn?

Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk money. So, yes, as we heard earlier, £7.55 is the apprenticeship wage, and that's for somebody that's in the first year of their apprenticeship or under 19. After they're 19, they can go up to the national living wage for their age category. So, you know, it will increase. Regards to... employers they can actually pay more than the minimum if they wish so some employers in engineering and tech they will pay more than the national apprenticeship

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But that first year, that's regardless of age, isn't it? Because we've had an email from Chris. Let me read it to you. He says, five years ago at the age of 38, I started an apprenticeship to train as an electrician. A lot of people don't realise the minimum wage for a first year apprenticeship is the same regardless. For me, that was £4.15 per hour.

five years ago, around £614 a month for a 37-hour week at the age of 38. I was financially supported by my partner, but I don't think there is much support in the way of benefits. For many, this must be a big obstacle to obtaining qualifications through apprenticeships. later in life. Is that still the case, Rachel? It is, I'm afraid, yes. I mean, it is a lower wage than the living minimum wage. Apprentices just need to be aware of that when they go into it and also kind of...

the the expectation they need to understand kind of what they're going to be earning what they're going to need to pay for especially in the first kind of month of their apprenticeship they're going to maybe have to pay for travel they're going to have to pay for uniform and that might be before their first

kind of wage packet so they just need to bear that in mind and we do try and give apprentices from the who are members of the association kind of those tools to be able to financially manage as in the tools to budget the tools to know and what to look at for how to kind of balance that and reduce the financial stress that they may have.

there is also benefits they can kind of delve into so there's discount cards for apprentices as there is of students and they can apply for these discount cards that can give them discounts on things like food entertainment shopping and clothing that's from discount cards like totem or student beans so i suppose what i want to get across then is we keep saying oh it's it's cheaper than university because you actually get paid but things can still be quite tight

They can be yes and apprentices do tell us that one of the top concerns they have is kind of like mental health and one of those is due to financial stress as well as like time and time management and work-life balance but yeah they just we need to listen to apprentices and make sure that we're designing kind of support and policies to support them to be successful in their apprenticeships.

Is there an assumption that all apprentices are living at home? No, I mean, not at all. A lot of our members move away, especially to kind of bigger cities. They go there to kind of access those opportunities. So budgeting for them is key. They may be paying, you know, travel, food, accommodation, uniform. And also as they go more towards the end of their apprenticeship, if they have to reset an exam, there can be costs.

involved there as well. So it is a lot cheaper than university in the respect they're not getting into debt but they do also need to be really aware of the fact that they need to budget with their money. We've previously looked at extra university help for care leavers across the UK. Is there anything like that for care leavers entering apprenticeships?

Yes, there is. There is a bursary for care leavers and they can apply for a bursary. There's also some sector grants like in construction, you may be able to apply for support towards your learning costs.

Thank you. Ben, there is actually, though, quite a high dropout rate, isn't there? 38% dropout in the most recent figures we've got. Does the salary potentially contribute to that? It can do. I think it is worth saying that that dropout rate is not the, to view it as though it's a 38% don't have a successful experience is wrong because lots of the people who leave an apprenticeship.

do so because they're promoted or they and their employer feel they don't need to complete it or they move. So there's lots of reasons why a large proportion of that 38% might actually be... have had a great experience so i wouldn't want your listeners to think that

Only 62% get a good experience from it. It is much more than that. Well, Matthew in Leeds has been in touch to say that he was traditionally academic at school. He was encouraged slash pushed slash cajoled to study an English degree at a Russell Group university as that was the path expected of me, he says.

by teachers and family he says I'm 32 but in just 15 years I feel the whole approach to apprenticeships has changed if I had my time again I'd go into a traditional trade my current path in HR is at risk of being automated by AI and I worry about what that means for my

future. Matthew thank you very much for sharing that. One issue is that choosing an apprenticeship over school or college can have an impact on family finances. Laura has been in touch about this. She works as an apprentice assessor. I think that apprenticeships are a fantastic opportunity for lots of young people, especially those from disadvantaged families for whom university is a huge financial risk. One of the challenges is that families will lose child benefit.

If they go on to an apprenticeship at 16, it has implications for additional benefits for the whole family. However, young people can claim universal credit, but it's incredibly difficult under 18. Laura, thank you very much for sharing that. Ben, when it comes then to state support like child benefit, the apprentice is judged to be in work rather than education. What kind of impact can that have on their household?

Oh, so their income is counted as part of the calculation as household income. So if they're additional, so even on that minimum wage, you know, a normal full-time job, that would be £14,000 a year. That might tip the family over. into a position where they no longer qualify for some of their benefits, which means that as a household, they might be no better off or maybe even a little worse off than if their offspring had not gone to an apprenticeship. And we think that is...

completely outrageous when someone is trying to learn to be productive, get on the ladder of becoming someone who is a taxpayer. And we think that's a priority for the government to address at the upcoming budget, actually. Although, of course, I suppose if you are...

earning an income that is extra money coming into the household. But it's not just benefits that can be affected. Somebody's message to hasn't given their name to say, my son turned down his offer to study at university during COVID. Thankfully, a local company offered a degree apprenticeship in engineering.

wages during learning, funding to attend university, learning specific to local company jobs. But they say son's wages are taken into account as household income, which has affected applying for some eco grants. His father, a stroke survivor, and his grandfather both did. Thank you for sharing that. Rachel, briefly, if you can, there's also an issue, isn't there, with council tax because the minimum wage now brings them above the qualifying threshold for a discount.

Yes, it does. However, the government have opened up a consultation and we've responded on behalf of the apprentice voice, so our members at the AOA, as 91% of apprentices said that they think that the threshold should be updated in line with national... on minimum wage so hopefully that's going to be looked into. Thank you well one thing that people are getting in touch about is degree apprenticeships these are at the higher level of the apprenticeship range

As the name suggests, equivalent to a degree. And there's been real growth in these kinds of opportunities recently. Let's talk to Kira, who has recently been through this. Kira Lynch, she did her qualification with AJ Bell, which runs one of the big retail investment platforms. Kira, you got a degree.

for free and you got paid is that what you picked it yeah it was definitely one of the elements to why I picked it um it was good to get hands-on experience in the finance sector at such a young age that appealed to me but yeah I considered going down the conventional university route and I understand why people do however it felt like the best choice to me

to get my degree paid for me. But is that because you're really sensible? Do you feel like you missed out? I'm not saying university is not sensible, but do you feel you missed out on some of that?

university fun the freshers week the university socializing that kind of thing or did you still manage to get that i suppose yeah you do have to sacrifice an element of that when doing the degree apprenticeship A lot of my friends went to university and I saw them going out a lot, getting up weight while I was working the normal Monday, nine to five.

But I was quite lucky that they went to universities close by. So I was able to travel to them on the weekends, kind of live my university experience through them in a way. But maybe having a bit more cash. If I can ask, how much were you paid during your... apprenticeship so because it was six years ago now i can't remember an exact figure but i remember being in a very

good financial position compared to my friends that were at university and it set me up now so i've got savings behind me i live with friends in manchester now and i went traveling after the degree apprenticeship and it was that earning for four years along the way that has set me up and put me in a good financial position now.

So you went travelling, but you still work for AJ Bell. So were they OK with giving you a sort of post-degree gap year? Yeah. So when I finished the apprenticeship, I think I got offered my full-time role. did that for about two, three months, and then got a sabbatical, which allowed me to travel for six months after the apprenticeship. But it was travelling with that job security, which was always nice, coming back to a full-time role.

And obviously the apprenticeship had allowed me to save for that. Rachel, I know a lot of parents would love their children to do this, to get a degree without any student debt. Is there a lot of demand for these roles? There is. And it can be quite disheartening sometimes when apprentices applying for role after role after role and, you know, being declined. But I would say, you know, be persistent.

be strategic in your applications so make sure you're kind of tailoring your CV to each of the roles that you're going for and but also contact employers and training providers separately to ask if they've got any vacancies. Can I say one thing? Please do. Yeah, just on the degree of friendships, they are brilliant, right? But they are not the only game in town.

And I'd want people listening. There is some emerging evidence that the level that really seems to make the difference and tip people into a really good career is level three. So a one year or 18 month level three apprenticeship might be just as impactful as. the degree apprenticeship so if a degree apprenticeship isn't available that someone wants to do or available in their area they shouldn't

They should be really excited about a Level 3 apprenticeship as well. Well, I'll tell you what, let's hear from someone who's doing a Level 3 apprenticeship. Connor is studying electrical engineering with Tata Steel and he's aged 24. I went through, I did my GCSEs and I did a BTEC in engineering at that point. I really enjoyed it. Then I went through the day levels again and did like a level three BTEC then and really enjoyed it. Went off to uni, taking that jump sort of being the independents.

figuring sort of how life in uni works. And after being there for about two years, it was a case of, right, well, is this really for me? Do I want to be sitting down and sat on, because at the time it was, again, Zoom calls. Do I want to be sat on Zoom calls or do I want to sort of...

get involved, get in a workshop and start doing stuff. So I took the leap of leaving university and then going back through sort of the apprenticeship scheme and going, well, what effectively might, some might deem a two steps back, one step forward approach, but...

I think for me now, jumping headfirst into doing this apprenticeship was definitely by far the better choice would be being in a workshop, actually learning how it is and sort of in the industrial world and the commercial world rather than only theorising it.

If I could go back in time, I would 100%, you know, 16 year old me looking back, thinking about what route I was going to take. If I knew I could go back through and do an apprenticeship, 100%, I'd take it with two hands, go and do it again. So Ben, I mean, Connor's clearly... Really, really happy with the path that he's on. I talked about half of apprenticeships in England now being made up of degree apprenticeships. Do you think, is there a risk? Do you feel that that's...

soaking up all the apprenticeship funding. So it's not actually that much. It's the proportion that a degree of apprenticeships isn't actually that high. It is growing. It's one of the fastest growing bits of it, but it's still...

uh sort of 10 15 percent of all apprenticeships but but they are expensive because they're over three years and they're very high value so you're absolutely right that they they absorb lots of the the money but you know the people who do them, the employers who run them get huge value from them.

Well, thank you for putting us right on that figure. Rachel, really briefly, if you can, Trevor's been in touch to say a young member of my extended family has successfully completed a technical apprenticeship, passed with a distinction. Well done. He's still with the same employer, but his contract and salary has not been amended.

should happen to an apprentice? He's worried to ask in case they let him go and replace with another apprentice who might be cheaper. Where could that young person get some support, get some advice? I would say look on the government website. There's support there for apprentices and you can reach out to the help desk at the government website.

Thank you very much. So gov.uk perhaps for some extra advice on that. For anyone who's listening then and thinks this does sound like something they want to consider, this does sound like a... good potential way to begin a career. I want to get a sort of final thought from all of you. What's the one thing you think they need to know or think about Kira?

Really try and show your personality in the application. Make yourself stand out and make sure you submit not just your CV but a cover letter as well and demonstrate how you'd be an asset to the business and work well in a team. Thank you. Ben, briefly, if you can. Very briefly. If it's allowed, there is one guidebook on...

on this, which is pretty comprehensive. Is it yours? It is mine. It's the only one, sadly, but it captures a lot of the answers to lots of the questions that people have been asking from beginning to end. I think that's fair. Rachel, your top tip. I would say once you've got your apprenticeship I will join the Association of Apprentices completely for free and access all the free resources and guidance that we've got for you.

And that's all we've got time for in the Moneybox Live podcast. Thanks to everybody who's been in touch. And thank you, of course, to today's experts. We've been hearing from Ben Rowland, the author of Understanding Apprenticeships and the chief executive of the Association of Employment and Learning Providers.

and also Rachel Keyes from the Association of Apprentices. If there's a story you want us to look at, then please do get in touch and graduate apprentice Kira Lynchy is going to tell you exactly how. Kira, no pressure at all. If you want Moneybox Live to look at a story or even appear on the programme like I did, then get in touch. You can email moneybox at bbc.co.uk or send a team a message or voice note on WhatsApp. The number is 033 067 83 183. They really do read and listen to every message.

You'll be coming for my job. Thank you. The Moneybox Mastercraftman Paul Lewis will have the Moneybox podcast on Saturday. He'll be looking at a surprising rise in first-time buyers overpaying their mortgages. In this podcast, the producer was James Graham. I'm Felicity Hanna and this was a BBC News money and work production for BBC Sounds.

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