Can You Make a Creative Job Pay?

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Hello, thanks for listening to this Money Box podcast. The creative industries are worth an estimated£124 billion to the UK economy. But for actors, painters, or even influencers, making it pay can be a challenge. So I thought, Well, hey, the channel's going up and then after Christmas I thought, Oh, my views are up, but the revenue's down. While many people are creative, not everyone can afford to turn that passion into a career.

So today we're looking at the cost of creativity because behind every priceless masterpiece or successful performer is an investment not just of time, but of money.

Let's begin with the view from the top. Someone who has made it over all the financial and creative hurdles to have a long career in the art. I've been speaking to the actor and former I'm a celebrity winner Christopher Biggins, and it is December, so he's once again donning his tights for Panto. This year I'm going to be doing Birmingham Hippotrope. Robin Hood playing uh King John and it's outrageous.

Pantomime. It really is. It's it's wonderful, it's spectacular. You're undeniably the king of Panto. I think you've even received the Lifetime Achievement Award at the Great British Pantomime Awards, which I'm Very glad to know exist. What is it about pantomime that you love? It's a wonderful, wonderful combination of so many different things that appeal to a family. It's quite British, I think, you know. I mean I did there aren't many country other countries who do it.

But it is extraordinary because it it gives a festive cheer to all different families all over the country. Okay, you clearly absolutely love pantomime, but how important is the money? Uh when I was first asked to do pantomime, which is fifty years ago. And I kept turning it down. I said, No, I don't I'm an actor, I don't do pantomime and eventually one day they mentioned the money. Now we're talking fifty years ago.

And the salary fifty years ago for me to play Mother Goose in Darlington Civic Theatre. was one thousand pounds a week. And I thought, I can't believe that. So that first year I did it for the money and I absolutely loved it. I thought this was the best thing ever, and I've been doing it every year since. And the money has stayed at a th no, no, it's gone up. I mean, it's very interesting. You get people who uh don't do pantomime and they say, Oh, we're doing the pantomime to pay the tax bill.

I don't need to pay the tax bill because I at a very early age had a very good accountant who told me that the thing to do is to keep separate accounts. So I have a VAT account, I've got a tax account. And I then pay my agents her percentage and so everything is paid for. So what I'm left with is I can spend. And it's a very good thing to do for actors because actors are the worst.

The money comes in, they spend it, and then when they have to pay VAT or tax, it's all gone. You sound very financially But it it's not all been plain sailing, has it? No, I mean I had a a voluntary bankruptcy. And of course when you do a a voluntary bankruptcy you have to pay quite a bit of money to do it, which is biz seems bizarre. Uh but anyway I did it. An actor's life is great.

But financially it's it's it's difficult. I mean, interestingly enough, if we're gonna talk about money, the television I did, which got me a lot of recognition, was porridge. I was on ninety pounds an episode. That was good money, you know, but if it was repeated on BBC one or BBC two, I would get over a thousand pounds as as a repeat fee. I just wonder if you can go back to that bankruptcy. Was that because of

Yeah, just how tricky it can be to to make your way in the world of drama. You're absolutely right. I mean i for instance, uh uh when people young people come to me for advice about being an actor or or in in entertainment, I say don't do it. And the reason I say don't do it is I know so many people brilliant actors who never work. And also television now is becoming almost redundant. I mean, when I uh was successful in a porridge

And a surprise, surprise with Silla Black. We used to get twenty five million viewers. But now the T V companies get excited over a million. Okay, so your advice is don't do it. What's your advice after that for the ones who say, Yeah, but I'm gonna Well, then I say go for it. And a and I say also that it's nothing to do with talent. It's being at the right place at the right time and meeting the right people. That's where you become a star. You wouldn't swap your career though, would you?

No. I loved it. I the thing people say to me, what is the best thing you've ever done? It may surprise you when I say, I'm a celebrity, get me out of here. Because you are thrilled, because you've been voted in by the public. And that changed my whole career. The actual fee, uh I don't mind telling you was fifty thousand pounds. But afterwards was the fees went up, my pantomime fees went up, the work came in, I mean it just went everything went up and up and up and up and up. It was incredible.

Thank you to Christopher Biggins for joining us and for being so very honest about the money. Well listening to that and joining me throughout the programme today are Jack Gamble, director at Campaign for the Arts.

And Vix Rodwell, Managing Director at the Self Employment Association. Ipsy Hello. Hello. Hi. Jack, it's quite unusual, isn't it, to hear someone speaking so very openly about money from bankruptcy to fees. What are some of the starting salaries for those who do bridge? Well I think the first thing to say is in the creative industries the amount that you can expect to earn varies

quite a bit. So it it depends what part of the creative industries you're wanting to make a career in. Um you can expect to earn more, for example, as an architect or a video game designer than you might in a museum and gallery at the moment. But it also depends on which part of the country you live in. Actually at the moment across the UK you are mo you are likely to earn more in the creative industries overall than is the case for the UK average across all industries.

What exactly that variance is depends on um which part of the country you're in and what opportunities are available locally. So hang on. Actors, architects, video game designers Uh do they all make up the the two and a half million people who work in our creative sectors? And what what kind of jobs are we talking about?

They do. So the creative industries are defined by the government as those industries which have their origin in individual creativity, skill and talent. So that includes, as you say, things like music, performing and visual art. film, TV and radio, publishing, fashion and design, but it also includes things like advertising and marketing and IT software and computer services, which includes video games.

I imagine hearing Christopher Biggins talking about having a separate tax account must be the kind of thing you like to hear. When someone is starting out and maybe they're working as, for example, a jobbing actor, what kind of first steps should they take financially? Yeah, so I mean we would always encourage people to try and build a savings buffer as much as they can before they start out because you're you're gonna have a very unpredictable income.

for the rest of your career ultimately. So I think ha starting with a strong amount of money helps Um, you know, and then we definitely sort of encourage people to just get advice from people that have been there and done it before. You know, everyone makes mistakes, so try and learn from their mistakes and You know, build the right path for you ultimately. Jack, Mr. Biggins' advice was don't do it. I mean the th there can be a real lack of stability, can't

There can be, but I think it's also worth saying that creative careers are incredibly rewarding careers. They're rewarding for the people that do them, they're rewarding for our wider society because of how much we all benefit. from the work of artists and cultural organisations and creatives generally. But I think also it's worth saying that the creative industries are being increasingly recognised as very valuable sectors to the UK economy as well.

I mentioned earlier about earnings being on average higher in these industries. It isn't the case to say that always you're gonna have um a you know, a lower income or a more precarious um situation. That can be the case, particularly for people starting out, but there are also some fantastic uh examples too of people living uh people having long flourishing careers in these industries.

Or getting a grand a week for playing Mother Goose. Um, fix around a third of the jobs in the creative industries are self-employed roles. That's according to government figures. That compares to just 14% of jobs more generally.

What kinds of self employment are there? Yeah, I mean there's a few different types. So I mean part of it is is how you pay your tax. So, you know, you will have your sole traders, um, you'll have people that run through a limited company. One area we're seeing a big rise is side hustles. uh where people have a mixed income of self employment and PAYE. And then there's also people that work through an umbrella.

But they will pay tax as an employee, but ultimately they're self-employed in mindset, so they're sort of slightly peculiar one. Okay. Let's look at a different industry then. Let's go over to Alex who sent us this voice note.

I write and illustrate picture books for children. I've had a couple out in the last year. The issue is that for every book they sell, sell a book at cover price seven ninety nine. The author and illustrator gets thirty pence a copy. So it looks like apart from the advanced which I got a few years ago, I'm never gonna make any money from it, which I think is very common. But it's quite a shocker. I was hoping I'd earn enough just to balance out my pension. But No, it hasn't happened.

So at the moment I'm just doing local cleaning jobs and I've applied for a job as the kitchen porter. It'd be very interesting to know exactly what happens to the percentages, exactly where the remainder of the seven ninety nine goes. Thanks very much. Bye bye. Bye Alex. Thanks for getting in touch. Jack. Alex says it's quite a shocker. Now he did get an advance, so he did get some money paid up front for his work. Where does the rest of the money go?

Well I it can go to any number of places, but that isn't to say necessarily that the money is going to the right places and I think in these cases The most important thing to do first is understand your position as best you can, looking at your your own terms and contracts if you have them.

also speaking to peers you might uh have in those same industries. There are also organisations you can reach out to to try and understand your position better and to get advice, including expert advice on what options might be open to you. Those include trade unions, things like the uh Writers Guild or the Society of Authors in this case. Um but also um there are uh charities as well that might be able to provide um support and guidance for people experiencing uh hardship.

And one increasingly common option for for people in this kind of work I suppose is self publishing. Self publishing absolutely has become a bigger and bigger uh uh industry, but I suppose

it comes though with the greater responsibilities attached to striking out on your own. That can be lucrative in the best case scenario or that can be challenging. And I suppose Jack we think about the creative person at the heart of Whatever the content is, whether it's a performance or a piece of art or or a book, but there's actually a huge number of other people who feed into that process who also need to be paid.

There is and in fact I think one of the perceptions of the creative industries is that we're just talking about artists or creators. But then the artist needs support to get their work out there, to get it made and seen. And there are lots of people working right across these industries in many roles that you you never see but who are absolutely crucial to it.

What about AI, Jack? It can now create some really amazing pictures without paying any artists. Is there a risk that that's going to Suck the money out of this kind of sex. There absolutely is a risk of that, um because at the moment the situation is that um big tech companies developing these AI platforms have been doing so with large amounts of data which um has not been

expressly licensed with permission of all the people who made it. And so I think there are concerns about what that is going to mean for the future given how much artists have been building their livings around the rights they have to their work and their ability then to monetize that. Vix, we've had an email from Cara who says I've been a crafter for thirty years. Initially a hobby, it became my full time business.

But the number of shops and galleries has dramatically reduced, so it's now a hobby. I've never sold online, preferring to support independent traders who are bravely keeping their small shops and galleries going on the street. I still love making my jewellery and I have no plans to retire. Cara, thank you for sending that. Vix they say that if you do a job you love, you'll never work a day in your life. It sounds though like many people who do this kind of creative work do it just for the love.

Yeah, I think so. I mean I people are motivated by their passions at the end of the day and this is why many people go into self employment that they don't want to essentially just be a cog in a machine. They want purpose. Mae llawer o'r gwaith sy'n ei wneud. Mae llawer o'r gwaith sy'n ei wneud. Mae llawer o'r gwaith sy'n ei wneud.

Very rewarding even if the money doesn't necessarily follow through. Mm-hmm and Cara's not selling online. She's made a conscious choice not to sell online. But I suppose a lot of freelancers, self-employed people, side hustlers working in the creative sector, they also have to have those skills to market themselves.

Oh, absolutely. And I think i in some respects it gets easier every day and other it gets harder. You know, uh marketing is constantly evolving, there's always a new platform or an app or they're changing the algorithms. So it's a constant job I think to keep on top of how you actually get yourself

Du, jag skulle ju köpa några nya palpstält i lagret, det kanske blev lite mer grejer. De hade ju allt, man hade skribord, jag köpte en sån här, och kontorstolar, och så hade de en skitsnygg typcontainer. Vi har inredning för hela arbetsplatsen. Välkommen till AI-produkten! Du är så klarar. Du kan sova igen nu. Nu kan du eller någon annan nyta. Teksting av Nicolai Winther ترجمة نانسي قنقر Welcome to Pre.

If you're anything like me, you might have had some holiday season help from some of those online video platforms. The internet has clips showing everything from how to make better gravy to how to put batteries in a Furby. Those online videos are also a growing creative industry. So YouTube alone supported 45,000 UK jobs last year. That's according to Oxford Economics.

Let's hear from someone now who makes that pay. Steph started her YouTube channel iDrive a Classic in 2009. It's all about classic cars. It has almost 80,000 followers. Now Steph has another job fixing up cars. So I asked her how she went from behind the wheel to in front of the camera. I went to a classic motor show and somebody said to me

Oh, you were really good at presenting that. You should do YouTube. I said, Oh, don't think I'm glamorous enough. I don't think I'm sexy enough and they said, But look at the men that are doing it. They're wearing socks and sandals. You'll be absolutely fine.

And so I said, okay, I'll give it a whirl. So I did a few videos and within six months I had reached their monetization stage, which is where when your content gets to a certain level, you get paid out on the ads that are shown. You get picks and troughs and at times where consumers are spending more money around Christmas, for example.

the ad spaces are worth more. So YouTube are charging advertisers more to advertise their product because the consumer is more likely to engage with it. And you as a content creator get paid out more. However, the flip side of that is is in January when everybody's broke and everything's really miserable You get paid less. And I learned that after my first Christmas because I thought, Well, hey, the channel's going up. And then after Christmas, I thought, oh.

My views are up, but you know, the revenue's down. As you say, you're now monetized. Do you make a good income? I mean I have two jobs. That probably answers the question as to whether I make a good income or not. I make enough. I could make more. Okay, a really good example is that I was contacted by a company the other day. And they said, Will you promote our gambling services?

And the figure they offered me was four figures. It would have been essentially one and a half times what I make through YouTube advertising every month. So I could have made l I could make a lot of money doing stuff like that. Or I could promote products that

I didn't necessarily believe in and I don't agree with it. It's one of it's one of my strong lines in the sand. Did you have to spend a lot of money to kind of get set up when you were just starting out before you were able to actually make any kind of increasing? So in the early days I filmed everything on my mobile phone because I didn't have that

resource there to tap into to pay for all the bits and pieces I needed. So as the once the YouTube revenue started coming in, instead of spending it, what I then did was I reinvested it back into the channel, buying tripods. buying microphones. So my early microphones, I mean you can watch the videos and you could see wires trailing everywhere. I can't watch any of the early videos. They make me so embarrassed. I just think, oh God.

I wish I could just delete them, but then I think, well that's not genuine either, so I leave them up. You've described yourself as a content creator. D when you tell people that, do they act like that's a job that they recognise and understand or do you get a bit of eye rolling? I always do make a little face after I say it'cause I think, Oh, people are gonna be a bit

funny. They don't always see what it actually is. But I think once people have engaged with my content and I say, Oh, this is what I do, I think they understand it a little bit more. It sounds a little bit less like a clown career. What if you say to your bank that you're a content creator? Do they take that income seriously? Well I've had my mortgage locked in for a long, long time. Um, I don't pay any of my income. from my YouTube into a pension because at the moment

I'm reinvesting it into other things to take the channel further. And also, it doesn't bring in enough, but it is something that I have thought within the next 18 months I need to do. And if someone's listening to this, And thinking, Okay, I want to turn my hobby or my job or my passion into online content. What do they need to know? Find out who your audience are, know who your audience are and really consider the financials.

And how can you diversify? Another YouTuber once said to me, don't make one thing your sole source of income. Thanks to Steph from I Drive a Classic. Uh Jack, what is the YouTuber or influencer more widely industry worth in the UK? Well the study that you referred to that was done by Oxford Economics, I should say that was commissioned by YouTube but it estimates that YouTube content creators creators

contribute two point two billion pounds uh to the UK uh economy. It is undoubtedly a very significant and growing part of the creative industries. And that's been reflected actually in the fact that recently a group of parliamentarians have created an all party parliamentary group on digital creators to think about what the next steps should be.

Thanks. Um and Vix, Steph is a YouTuber. She also has another job. You made a reference earlier to side hustlers, so you can be employed and self employed then at the same time. Absolutely. I mean more and more people are doing it. I mean we do kind of sort of ask people to check their contracts before they sort of go div diving into side hustles and just make sure there's no conflicts with your PAY income. But it's a really great way to test out an idea

um and just see if there's something financially viable there that you may not scale to be a full-time income but could certainly be a really nice passive income. Is it harder for self-employed people doing this kind of work to get things like mortgage?

It can be. I mean uh traditionally uh mortgage uh companies would want two years of tradings accounts, but there there are a lot of specialist uh financial advisors out there that specialise in self employment, so we'd always recommend going and speaking to them first because they could probably help direct you towards

something that's perhaps a little bit more appealing on the the interest rates than for the high street. And if you were kind of doing it as a side hustle, what can you earn before you start having to think about paying tax, for example? So the trading allowance for a side hustle is a thousand pounds. So once you've exceeded that then you will need to register with HMRC and complete your self assessment.

And Vix, one thing that Steph said there was that she wasn't paying into a pension from her YouTube earnings. And in fact, you've got figures, don't you, that say more than sixty percent of self-employed people aren't paying into a pension at all. What's going on there?

Yeah, I mean we just did some very recent research on this and I think i it comes down to h p uh variable income and lack of flexibility in the sort of later life saving options. You know, a lot of people want their income accessible because it can go up and down. So they just choose not to put it into a pension'cause it's completely locked away.

Um, you know, and uh about thirty percent of people are actually saving less than five percent when they are saving. So there's definitely a nervousness, I think, to invest in such a long term op option. Jack, it's tricky, isn't it? What happens if you're doing this kind of work or you're fully freelanced and you fall ill and you can't make your content or you can't do whatever your creative work is?

Yes, well if you are self employed you will not be eligible for statutory sick pay, but you may be able to claim other benefits in that situation depending on your circumstances. So there's the employment and support allowance, which is not means tested, so your income or your savings won't affect it, but you do need uh to have made sufficient national insurance contributions in the last two or three years to that. Uh there's universal credit which is means tested if you're unable to work

due to illness, you could be assessed for uh increased payments. And if you have a longer term disability or ill health condition, then there are personal independence payments or the adult disability payments. In Scotland. I think it's also worth saying though that this is another case where reaching out to your union if you are in one but also to specialist charities.

can be helpful. For example, if you're a musician, uh help musicians or the Royal Society of Musicians have hardship funds for exactly these sorts of situations. But when it comes to all those uh those government benefits that you can get more information on the gov.uk website.

Now a lot of the creative talent that we're talking about comes from some early years investment of time and money from families. But it can be absolutely worth it when you get to see your child up on a stage, singing, dancing and acting. And at the Memo Creative Performing Arts Club in Newbridge in South Wales, all parents, all carers can afford to give their children that experience because it's a pay what you can club.

so no one misses out because of the cost and it stages those all singing, all dancing musicals like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and Matilda. One of the founders of Memo Creative is Liam. I'd say most people d don't pay anything. Some people pay Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â phobl. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â phobl. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â phobl. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â phobl. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â phobl. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â phobl. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â phobl.

to give their their twenty pence pocket money to come and it it was it was really emotional. Do you think the cost of a lot of drama groups and clubs means that sometimes it's only those better off kids who get to experience putting on a a performance and showing their parents what they can do. That's what it is, especially for mu for musical theatre is because there's singing classes and

dance classes and and acting classes. I mean if you have a lot of money, you can afford to do all of those things and train in all of those areas and so you're at a massive advantage to somebody who maybe has more talent. The idea of our group is that we're giving as many people a chance to give it a go as possible. How are you funding the group? We applyed and got funding from Comic Relief, which was which was really great.

Since then we've been funded by the postcode lottery. We we've already done three musicals, a load of showcases. And we're set to do Matilda with our younger group and American Idiot with our older group. um next year but our funding from postcode lottery runs out and then we'll look for other means of funding and of course we have that um amount that some people give

for the classes. The best part is when you see faces light up in children and when you see them having the greatest time and especially when you know that they wouldn't have been able to do it. They they are the best moments by far. What a great opportunity for Newbridge. That was Liam, one of the founders of Memo Creative. Jack, we're talking about the cost of being creative. It's undeniable, isn't it, that the price of classes can be a barrier.

It can be and that's a huge concern because creative careers often begin because somebody is inspired to pursue a creative practice. through having access to it often but not always as a child or young person.

Examples like this are are fantastic to hear about where that uh that opportunity is not only being provided but being provided with a pay what you can scheme that removes those socio economic barriers that are often in the way for people. What can parents do, Jack, if they do potentially struggle with the cost of of any kind of of creativity, but they do want to find those opportunities for their children.

It's really hard, um, because especially if those opportunities are not available in school. Um what I would say is that schools though and you know, your local school, your local arts organisations are great first ports of call if you do have a child who's interested in something to ask what the options might be. Yes. And a government spokesperson had told us that they've recently launched a a three hundred and eighty million pounds

creative industry sector plan to try and tackle some of those barriers. That's right. And part of that campaign in fact is a website, Discover Creative Careers, which you can access at discovercreative.careers. And it has been put together by a range of creative industries organisations to really showcase the wealth of different opportunities there are in the creative industries and to demystify those pathways into the industries as well.

Okay, let's have some final thoughts then. Um, Vix, what's your main piece of advice for anyone planning to make their creative passion into their profession? Um I think on a practical note I I'll try and look at the short, medium and long term whilst you're assessing it because

if you want to be successful, ideally you're gonna need to think about the long term as well as just get it going and it's it's gonna change what you're focusing on, what your income is, is gonna change constantly. So I think if you can see that holistic picture as well. It will help carve out the right path for you. Jack, what's your top tip? If you're interested in these industries, by far the most valuable thing is to try and just start making things.

And as Vic said earlier, that that can be starting small. You know, it's good to have the the room and t including the financial room to not get everything right first time, but to gain experience. So if you can or whatever level you can have a go and also feel able to reach out to people and ask for advice and support. Right, that is all we've got time for in today's podcast. Oh no it isn't. Oh yes, it is.

Huge thanks to Christopher Biggins and everyone who told us their stories. And thank you to my two guests, Jack Gamble from Campaign for the Arts and Vix Rodwell from Ipsy. As we get ready to create Moneybox and Moneybox Live in 2026, do remember we want to hear from you. What are the financial issues, the questions that you want us to look at? Get in touch. You can email moneybox at bbc.co.uk or you can send us a comment or voice note on WhatsApp. The number is 03306-783183.

Until twenty twenty six, then, from our producer Sarah Rogers, production coordinator Ema Devlin, studio manager James West, editor Jess Quail, and from me, Felicity Hannah, have a very happy new year. This was a BBC News Money and Work production for BBC Sounds. Do the wonder products that you see on your social media and supermarket shelves really deliver on their bold claims? Dehumidify a standing death.

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