Mobits Extra: Burrata and Anchovies with Major Garrett

in New York City. We talked in depth about season three of Mobituaries while gnashing on barata and octopus. Actually I did all the eating, which I feel kind of bad about. I really don't mind sharing, really, unless it's a wet dessert. I will not share a wet dessert. I'm sorry. It is way too intimate. Anyway, I got to tell Major how some of this season's episodes came

to be. You'll also hear me talk about an episode of Mobituaries we have coming up later in the month, the story of Samantha's Math, the ten year old girl from Maine whose letter to then Soviet premier Eurie and drop Hop in the nineteen eighties made headlines. Here is that episode of The Takeout, hosted by CBS News Chief Washington Correspondent Major Garrett, featuring Me Morocca as his guest five four three two one. But who's counting right? His

name is Major, Lady and gentleman. Please welcome Major Garrett from the Nation's capital. Major fantastic. It's the Takeout. This is a major team with CBS News Chief Washington Correspondent Major Garrett, s CBS f s Major Garrett. Major, that's nonsense. Brother is Major out of the dog house answers, Yes, welcome to the red best part of my broadcast week. Know we are winding to a close of the year two and this episode is going to be particularly special

for me because it's about a topic I love. Maybe it's a topic you love too. It's a podcast, not this one. There's no podcast I love more than this one. You know that, my dear friends. But it's very close. Mobituaries Obituaries is the beautiful, luminous journalistic work of Mo Rocca. Mo. It's great to see you, thanks for being with you, and I mean this. It is an amazing achievement. I love every episode. I immerse myself in every episode and I am enriched by every episode. I'm just gonna fanboy

on you for like the next forty five minutes. If that's okay, It is totally fine. And I did bring my wallet, by the way, unless this is no no, dinner is always on us here at the take out. So speaking of that, we are in New York City, Trotteria del arte. What are you that? For me? Is that okay? That was like passable? It was great? And we're gonna talk talk about mobituaries. You're midway through season three. The second part of season three will start right about

when three starts. For those who may not know about this wonderful place to find great stories about Americans who've been slightly overlooked or maybe heavily overlooked. What is the construct? What is the premise the passion behind mobituaries? So it's people or things um in uh this season we even included a fruit uh that um that deserve a second look, that passed on and didn't get the recognition that I think they deserved. Um. And then they also what is

that I love that? I love that? How special is that Morocco? That will be all yours I know because you saw the dog. Oh that's great. The baratas, and thank you for writing the anchovies. Barata is nothing without anchovies. Okay, great, thank you so much. I think very mans is an indulgent culinary experience entirely from Orocco. I'm guessing you saw the documentary about the octopus, right that everybody that I

see all the documentaries on octopus. Yeah, and so that's why I have not I'm waiting to see it until after I eat this. So it's basically things that I think deserve a second look that didn't get the send off they deserved the first time. Or maybe he didn't get any send off at all. Um So, already this season we had John Denver uh with names, and I'm sorry that we didn't include Major, but that would have been really interesting. Actually, do you know where it ranks major?

Very very low, very very It does not make the top ten thousand, I don't think ever, but that's been an advantage for me, so I'm good with that. It probably is so yeah. So, um So, we looked at names like Mildred, Bertha and Todd, which um fell off the map. I was surprised that Todd had fallen off the map in the early seventies. Um, and uh so it's been it's been a blast just to kind of

dive into these different topics. And what strikes me about this second look process is in some instances the subject matter got a look like John Denver, for example, John Denver in his time well as a sensation, and the treatment of at this time was He's different than the caricature or the popular understanding of what John Denver was. Well, you know, I don't know if you remember this, and look, it might have just been in my own little tiny

corner of the world. But when he died and I didn't, we didn't mention this in the podcast, but I remember a lot of like really snarky jokes about him, and it was sort of the same way as a child that I remembered when Elvis died. The very first time I heard the word loser was on the playground at Woodacre's Elementary School in Bethesda, Maryland, and Elvis had died, I guess in the summer. And when I came was

showed up in August. Yeah, in third grade, and somebody mentioned Elvis and this girl said he was a loser, and oh, yeah, and exactly right, no, exactly and but but John Denver had come to this place where he'd sort of become a punch line, and and so I thought, well, that's this is rich because I'm not the only one telling Alexa to play John Denver's Greatest Heads. A lot

of people are doing this. And Kurt Cobain apparently when he grew up, his mother only had one album in the house and it was the John Denverus Greatest Heads, and he listened to it over and over again. And I was probably morocc is sympathetic to that retelling of the John Denver story because I think that's what's going to happen when Neil Diamond dies. And I'm a huge Neil Diamond fan and not apologetic Neil Diamond fan. I

believe he is an exceptional songwriter. His latter part of his career is a little bit kitchier than the first part of his career, but I think he's a substantial member of the American song book, and he's not treated that way. He's not regarded that way. And I think when whatever that day comes, it will be a sequined reference and a lot of ribbing of people on the in the side. Well, that guy was really kind of just a low level entertainer. Not true. Yeah, I agree

with that. What I mean people at ben Way would what right, Caroline, Yeah, but but but also just regard that as like a baseball song. No, it's actually a really good song in itself. Well, I think you're I think this is what happens. It seems like with a lot of really really um mass appeal entertainers. And of course it's foolish, like the audience is smart. They attach

themselves to something for a good reason. People punched through not by accident, and the process of a mobituary is too tell the story of a person's life in the context of the times in which they lived in not are modern times, because some of the issues and some of the people are viewed maybe more harshly now than they were in the time in which they lived, or they were subject to pressures unlike the pressures they would

face now. Back in season two, there's a tribute to really one of the greatest entertainers ever, Sammy Davis Jr. Right, And that story is about his time, his struggles and how he moved through them. Yeah, I think it's I mean I'd like to try to go back and and and help the audience understand how the person was received in their time. I mean, obviously there's a point of view, So I mean, I can't if it would be a cheat for me to say, oh, we're not judging them

by contemporary standards, it's not true. But I also don't want to look when we did Latin Lovers in the first half of this season Valentino, Roman Navarro, Fernando Lamas. You know, Valentino is a hundred years before me too, Okay, And so I get it these a lot of these movies haven't dated well. Um, but of movie goers were women at the time, and he was created by men. I mean, the matinee Idol was created by women who

at that time, you know, that's what they wanted. And so I didn't feel like digging up women that have been dead for seventy and eighty years and putting them on trial. I mean, for like what they liked. I think it's you know, it's it's sort of this is what was at the time, and of course, you know, we add a little bit of like my viewpoint on it. But I'm interested in what created this phenomena at the time. Why why people were literally killing themselves when he died,

because there was such hysteria. And tastes are tastes, and one of the ways to understand how a culture evolves is to understand tastes of a different era. Totally, yes, And if you don't understand the taste of a different area, you can't mark yourself and how things have changed. And one of the ways of appreciating and sort of quantifying change and evolution is, well, what were the taste back then?

And why how do we get here? And also, I don't think I don't think most people are that judgmental anyway. I don't think most place senior. Oh, that's so terrible. I mean, there is a there is a sort of self defined judgment or judgmental industrial complex, but most people are not a member of it. That's hysterical. The judgmental industrial complex is perfect, that's perfect. Yeah, if it most

people don't count themselves in that, and they want to know. Like, for example, going back to John Denver, I didn't realize until I listened, not only didn't he have a successful songwriting career, but and we'll talk more about this on the other side of the break. Uh, he had one of the most watched Christmas specials in the history of broadcast television. Yes, yes, I mean it's not it's it's it's not quite the level of say my podcast or yours.

Sixty five million people tuned in to the Rocky Mountain Christmas Special in and you know when I found it. You can find it on YouTube to but don't. I'm not sure it's supposed to be there, but it's um it is. And you know, you and I are not far apart in age, and so you can smell the seventies just by listening to this thing. It is so evocative of kind of a weird sort of one kind of energy, you know, John Denver, it's sort of There are scenes of nature. There's um flying a slow most

shot of a flying squirrel. There's a sequence on the life's life cycle of the brook trout. And we're gonna hold on the brook trout and all the other scenery because we need to go to break. Do we have brook Trout coming by the way, because Garrett Segment two of the takeout coming up intil a second from CBS News. This is the takeout with Major Garrett Welcome back to segment two of the Takeout Trotta del Arte in Midtown Manhattan. Our special guest Rocca and I am just gonna fanboy

for the next forty minutes because it's about mobituaries. It's about this phenomenal podcast that grew out of your work on CBS Sunday Morning, and this gathering of information, observation and archival sound that brings to life people who deserve a second look. And we'll get back to the John Denver Christmas Special from a second. But you are the editorial agent of control over who gets the second look, are you not? Yeah? I mean, I don't know. I don't know if you feel this way too. I just

feel like I've learned to trust my gut. I don't want that in a leader necessarily, but like for editorial, you know, if something gets me in the gut. I think there's something about, say John Denver that and I mentioned this in the podcast. I was this is going to be a name drop. But I participated in a reading that a friend put on a playwright and Julianne Moore was there and she sat right next to me.

It was really cool, and and my friend was being very nice and said, oh, Julianne, you have to listen to most podcast in obituaries. He explained what it was, and she said, who do you have coming up? And I said John Denver and she like she melted, She went John Denver and and she like was it's sort of like she stepped into a time machine right there and went back and and was just exhaled and and uh um. And I think that there's something that makes people.

He's what I call an undervalued stock. And I think there are people like that that they're sitting somewhere in the back of our minds, and then if you bring them up, people go, oh my god, that's right. I loved that person. And if you can find those are people that I'm always kind of like, who who is a person like that? And go back to the Christmas Special? So did you say sixty eight million people watch this?

Six that is? So this is remember Dais and gentle let's just go back in the way back machine with Mr Peabody. Yeah. So broadcast television back then was a mass audience structure. Three networks that were not a lot of choices were streaming alternatives. There weren't cable alternatives. But still it was highly competitive because of that intense segmented So if you pulled sixty eight million, you were literally pulling ten million viewers from two other networks at that hour.

It is Listen, you're absolutely right when people say, oh, there were only three networks. Okay, that's fine, but also the country was also significantly smaller. Okay, the country had I think probably you know, like two competitive zeal to grab a million viewers, let alone ten million from another network was off the chart. Yeah. And so when you watch this thing, it's I mean, it's very weirdly seventies.

He's and basically he's like basically in a snow globe and a biosphere that they've built for him in the rockies, and he's got like grow eas and greenies as he calls him. Inside. He has all this plant life inside um and UM at the whole thing. I'm not surprised. Imagine hanging Macromay baskets are probably in there somewhere. And he's got the biggest stars of the day. He's got Steve Martin in his Wild and Crazy Guy, UM period and and Um, Valerie Harper, Olivia Newton, John Um and

he just sort of sings songs. There's kind of a it's cheerful, but there's also something kind of wand and sort of seventies about it. And think about the psyche collectively of the country. Nine the bi centennial year. But we're coming off Vietnam. We're wondering about what what America means after two hundred years. We are still dealing with the after effects of the civil rights movement, campus riots, all of those things. Watergate is just right in the

rear view mirror. And this idea of almost like this snow globe commune ye yep, sitting in the middle of living rooms across America found a place of traction psychically, I think people if you look at it and you think people just needed a break, people just needed a break.

And even the way everyone in the audience shots, the reaction shots, I mean there's a there's a I wouldn't say a like quality to it, but everyone looks mildly sedated, like and so everyone's ballly um, it's like a very like that crowd and uhum, and everyone sort of naturally attractive, like no one seems to be wearing makeup, none of the women and so um, and he's sort of strumming his guitar and they're having a sing along. Um And one of the things I love about the Mobituaries about

John Denver. And I promise we'll get onto other parts of Mobituary Season three. But I found this deeply meaningful to me because I had sort of overlooked John Denver until recently got the greatest hits on my iTunes. And we all remember, I certainly remember the time Rocky Mountain High having a kind of hilarious end joke Rocky Mountain High, everyone stone, that's not what the song is about. And the first three stands of that song, I urged my audience go back and listen to it. It is beautiful,

evocative life journey writing. It really is. And I mean yeah, And he went and he testified in fact, but during the um Parents Music Research Council, right the tipper Goore hearings that what are commonly known as that and and said, you know, my song was not was not about that. It seems almost quaint now because no one would care

today if they thought it then. And it was sort of like an allegation against it, like a celebration of sitting around a campfire just getting stoned and that's all that's all American youth could do, and how terrible that was, and we ought to do something about that. Arms Akind Absolutely No, it was his. It was his reaction to seeing the the parased meteor shower from twelve thousand feet up in the Rockies and how beautiful that was. Damn

exactly exactly. Um, how is it that people like John Denver? And I imagine you've thought about this because you're saying this person deserves a second look? Have you ever come to a unified theory about why they didn't get the good look the first time? M Um? Well, I think it's probably different in every case. I think for John Denver, I do think that he would have been recognized more

had he lived longer. And you know what you know, as you know one of the in the podcast Bill flan Again it was a great music writer, and I talked about how today he might be Dolly Partner. He might have been Dolly Partner, this enduring person of with a with a great songbook that is a touchdowe for lots of people over many generations. Yeah, I think so.

And I don't know what the statistics are, but I bet that the number of times his songs are played would probably surprise a lot of us, like how they're still played. So, um, yeah, I think you would be a figure like that. And uh so I'm not, I'm not, I'm not sure. It's it's a it's I think it's different every time. So who is Mr and Mrs Smith

And why did they rate a mobituary? Well? Mr and Mrs Smith rated him obituary because actually the producer of that episode, um Zoe Marcus, had sent long ago an image of a Time magazine cover from seven Um that

simply says Mr and Mrs Smith an interracial marriage. And I remember being struck that I had not known the story that Dean Rusk, the Georgia Democrat who was um the Secretary of State under Kennedy and and LBJ, that his daughter, who was white, married a black man in seven and that that would have been put on the

cover of Time magazine. And and one of the details really jumped out at me that Dean Rusk, her father, had offered his resignation to the president because he was worried that the publicity around it would comprom eyes, you know, crucial Southern support and Congress for the president's agenda on like a civil rights in Vietnam. But um that one marriage could be so galvanized as to possibly jeopardize the political prospects of a president of the United States. Right.

But what also kind of captivated me was the idea of this young couple in love who end up on the cover of Time magazine and then are completely forgotten, which they were very happy about. They retired, They moved as young people to central Virginia and raised horses all their lives. I mean, she was Peggy Rusk of the daughter of the Secretary of State, was not like a did not aspire to be a Washington doyenne or social climber.

She just had no interest in that. She found this guy, fell in love, they married, and they just wanted to get away from it all and be with horses, which is how they met. And why is nineteen sixty seven a particularly important year because it ends up being this year where it starts with um loving versus Virginia and the unanim mis ruling and um uh that struck down bands in sixteen states against mixed race marriages. And then you have this marriage in the middle, and then you

have guests Who's coming to dinner? Um, huge box office success at the end of that year. And then there's a little detail that I thought was really interesting that Sidney pot I'm gonna hold you right there because that interesting detail is a perfect segue and a grabber for the next segment of the Takeout, And that's what Rocca is doing. And the broados here and I'm Major Garrett back for more of our deeply enjoyable conversation about Mobituary

season three here on the Takeout from CBS News. This is the Takeout with Major Garrett. Welcome back. This is not a rhetorical question. How delightful is it to spend the end of twenty two in the presence of Mo Rocca in downtown Midtown, New York. It's spectacular. I told you it was not a rhetorical question. Our subject matter is Mo Rocca. Of course, Mobituaries. Midway through season three, UM,

we're talking about Mr and Mrs Smith. One of the things I found very interesting about that episode is Dean Rusk's daughter, who becomes Mrs Smith, doesn't really think much of guests Who's coming to dinner? The movie which wasn't, as you said, a box office sensation then and is regarded as one of these turning point movies of its time, and people who watch it now find great inspiration, substance, emotion, and a kind of clarity in it. But that didn't

really land that way with her. It sounded like to me, you know, it didn't. And I found her as a character so interesting because she was and and I'm sure when you encounter this, i'd like, I'm guessing you're happy about it. She's like someone who's never watching TV because she doesn't have the cadence of a TV interviewee. She just answers like she'll sometimes do like one word answers and she talks like a normal person. I'm like, what

are you doing? Why are you being so normal? Like you're supposed to talk like people do on TV and give these answers. You're just to give me the answers I'm expecting, what is wrong here? No, it's so and but what I what What I also found sort of inspiring is kind of she had this clarity that she was in love with this guy and that's all that matters. She wasn't really I was sort of taken aback when

she says she wasn't following the Supreme Court case. Now, that's probably because she was in a state where she was in the district of Columbia and she was gonna get married in California. There wasn't going to be an issue there in were protected. Yeah, but but but she wasn't. She just says, look, I don't know what to tell you. I wasn't doing this to make a cultural impact or make a political point. I was doing it because I

was in love. And when I interviewed the great entertainer Leslie Ulghams, who married a white man an Austar alien two years before in she sort of said the same thing, like, you know, when you're in love with somebody, you're not really thinking about the social issue aspect of it. I mean, you know, and that's maybe one of the ways, you know, it's really deep and abiding for them, right, because they're

not distracted by all these other things. They just know what they are, who they are, and what it means to be together, right, And there's a abject beauty to that mm hmm. Completely, it's so pure, and then it's it's sort of plainness and ordinariness. It seems to me as I was listening felt extraordinary. Yeah, well, I'm glad you feel that way. Thank you, and uh and thank her.

But it's um, and I hope that that's why it's that that people that it's landing with a lot of people who are sick of everything, every personal story becoming news becoming a political story necessarily because it doesn't. It just doesn't, it doesn't fit it that neatly. And if you allow me, well, I'd like to reach back to season two, uh to talk about Sammy Davis Jr. Um, because some in this audience may not have a real memory. Uh, Sammy Davis Jr. You have to be a person at

a certain age like you and I are you. And I grew up watching Sammy on television and even then I knew he was amazing, but I didn't know until I listened to the show how highly he was regarded by the superstars of his time. Yeah, he really was. When he was at Ciro's nightclub in Los Angeles, I mean people, everyone wanted to get in and see him perform. And he was quite young then. He was primarily a dancer then and uh, um and part of a nightclub

act with his father and part of the will Maston trio. Um. But even then, you know, people were fighting to get in and see this this masterful performer. And then he lost his eye and he came back from that. But part of why I wanted to do him just because not just my admiration and affection and call it death of an entertainer, is because entertainer the word. Sometimes people are a little kind of I think it sounds a

little cheeseball, but they're dismissive it, right. But to be a capital e entertainer like that, um, that's really special. To be somebody who performs, you know, in Vegas and then goes back to his hotel room and does the whole act again with lizam and Ellie because they both just love performing. That's like, that's a certain drive and an energy that that we all are great should be

grateful for to have that person in our lives. And there's a theme in that mobituary that I think is also important because looking back at entertainers of that era, So in the TV era who made it big, they came out of vaudeville, which was a place that demanded not just one talent. You could not be successful in vaudeville as a single talent entertainer. No, I mean he was sort of a quintuple threat. I guess, actor, singer, dancer.

He had the gun spinning routine, which was really amazing. Uh. He was also a really great impressionist, and he was also groundbreaking impressionist because he was a black impressionist, um, imitating white actors. But and when he did that in the army after being physically beaten regularly, you know, because

he was part of the first wave of integrated forces. Um, he was so good that that even like the abusive white you know, soldiers who would bullied him and worse, you know, we're like, whoa, this guy is really special. And one other theme that comes through subtly. But I think it's important because it's a hallmark of people who are successful in times when their success is harder than the people they are around. There was a tenacity to Sammy. Yeah,

they're yeah, there there was. There was, there was a tenacity he kept going. And I think also there's something, Um, I find something. I actually, weirdly enough, was thinking a little bit of Ellen DeGeneres when I was doing this, because I remember when I profiled her that she said, you know, I just want to make people laugh. I

just want to be an entertainer. And she sort of got caught up in one point in politics and having you know, and she she she was okay being an advocate, but what she really wanted to do was entertained and that's kind of Sammy Davis Jr. And by the way,

Sammy Davis Jr. Went and launched it Selma. He was on the march on Washington and I think Harry Belafonte even said at one point, I don't understand why Sammy Davis Jr. Doesn't get credit for that, and it's seen as somebody who sort of shirked that, which he didn't. But maybe it's because he was so first and foremost an entertainer and loved doing that. There might be one answer. It's referred to in the episode. I remember it in my household growing up when he endorsed Richard Nixon, and

that maybe one reason. That was a moment from my Republican Paris right. I'm seriously it was. It was a moment and they said, see Richard Nixon must be fine. This this this amazing. We did not use the terminology African American at the time, this amazing black American has endorsed Richard Nixon. Good enough for Sammy, good enough for

us even Yeah, it was a moment. And you mentioned in the episode that there was a little bit of hey, what are you doing among white liberals and maybe some in the civil rights community, you know, there was And then he this great speech was a push conference. I am who I am right, Yeah, I'm a black man in American I've made a choice, right and and and it was and I really loved talking to Willie Brown about that, who is, by the way, just one of

the greatest interviews ever. So he talked about an individual y mean and as sharp an observer and uh, he has to pick up on something you said earlier, a gut sense of politics that is very very good, very very sharp, always has and he had sort of a three sixty view of Sammy. He really did. And he also really pushed back at the notion that Sammy might have been deficient because he was so much about entertainment. He was like, no, he's a great cook. He was,

you know, a film lover. He was a really sophisticated guy and a great host. So it was I loved hearing his perspective. So when we think about, because we're going to be anticipating in a lot of different ways, what should we think about, what can you set the table at for coming up from obituaries in the second part of season three, Well, I really wanted to tell the story of Samantha Smith, whom you probably remember, but an astonishing number of people have forgotten that. In this

young girl from Jane, she wasn't connected. She wrote a letter like how many kids were kept awake at night during the eighties and seventies. I'm sure terrified that the world was going to be blown up, right, that the Soviet Union in America would trade you know, I CBMs and and uh and she wrote a letter to Eurie drop LP and with that another teaser. At the top of his game, Always at the top of his game, I Major Garrett. That's Morocco. Stay tuned for segment four

because that's a great teaser. When we get back from CBS News, this is the takeout with Major Garrett. Always fantastic to be in New York City. Even better when I get to sit down for meal with Morocca. So, Mo, you were talking about a letter, Well, right, do you remember towards the end of the Soviet Union, there were like a succession of really scary ghoules at the top. Right, it went, it went, the Supreme Soviet it went well, it went Breshnev and drop Up in Chernienko, Right, those

are the three. I mean, Breshnev had been there a long time. But but and drop Up was like like particularly a caricature of a scary guy because he'd run the KGB right and uh and um. And so this girl, Samantha Smith wrote this letter saying, you know, why do you want to blow up the world basically, and he

wrote her back. The letter was published in propta um and said, you know, we don't want that, and um, you know people all over the world are the same blah blah blah blah blah, and come visit the Soviet Union. And so she went, and CBS and News covered the hell out of it. It was a very big deal. But what I found, um in previous seasons of the podcast is people under a certain age really not that

much younger than me, but had no clue. And one of the producers said, no, you this, You've got to do this episode because no one I'm telling you, no millennials know this story at all, not only all of that story, but have any sense of And you mentioned this before we went to break and it might have

struck people. What the terror terror, the psychic heaviness that came with the Cold War, And in the seventies and eighties, almost once a month there was a story written about the ever enlarging stockpiles of nuclear weapons and how many times over one side or another could obliterate Planet Earth. That was heavy, It was real, and it weighed on you every single day. It weighed on you. And and so when I hear about kids who have climate anxiety,

I take that seriously. When I hear that, like kids have trouble sleeping because they're worried that the planet is going to be destroyed, and um, you know that the cities and places where they live will be submerged by the oceans. And I thought that's what it was that

I can sort of felt existential. It felt existential. And I had two fears at that time myself as an adolescent, that the world would be destroyed by nuclear attack, and that Broadway was just not economically viable as a model, and that by the time I moved to New York, there would be no you know, Broadway. So those two

things were the we're really weighing on me. Uh, Samantha Smith did nothing for the Broadway community, I'm sure you know, but thankfully it's still here, still here and going strong. But but she did, she did something remarkable. And she was a kid, an ordinary kid, and and the trip there was really interesting because she that was not easy to comport herself the way she did, and so that

story has been really interesting to tell. So one of the things that I find so enjoyable about obituaries is not only is it a second look, but it's a closer look at the first two lines of the original obituary, if you will, Because everyone who who achieves some level of notoriety, this is true, ladies and gentlemen, I've done it. You wonder, all right, when I die, what's the first or second line going to be about me? Anyone who denies that is not being honest with themselves, and they're

not being honest with you, Okay. And so you look at that lead and you say, is that true? Yes? But or did that completely miss it or miss it by more than it should have? It seems to me that's one of the exercises you go through in the process. Well, I appreciate that because I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but I'd like to think that that's what we are doing with it. I hope so. Um, I think you're right. It is interesting to see what that little is it in a positive I forget what the

grammatical term for it is. But you know, Joe Schmo Calma died today, he was sixty eight or whatever. Exactly exactly what is that thing that is the essence? Yeah, what is the contemporary essence of this person? Maybe right, maybe incomplete, maybe more wrong than right. And it seems

to me that's one of the things you're trying to excavate. Yeah, And and look that changes with I mean different eras, because you know, a while back, when Jerry Jerry Lee Lewis died, some of the the I could see that some of the o bits were balancing his legendary career as a rock and roller with his personal life in trying to smush it in there. You know, in earlier era would not have worried about the personal side. I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong. What

is that is there? Oh, thank you so much. That's fine, that's fine. Actually no, it's not. But it is a break in the video action, which is which is what when Midtown Manhattan it's a functioning, moving wine indulgent restaurants. So that's great. This is not a rehearsal to say, that's the kids saying right yeah, And it's not a drill without they saying and it's uh an appraisal plus more. And what do you find about the podcast space that

gives you that elbow room? Well, I think certainly the space the time you know that you can take, which I don't you know, I don't want to abuse that. You know, sometimes on streaming shows you think, well, you know, maybe it could have used a commercially a network exactly telling you sorry, five episodes, not a yeah exactly, you know, forty minutes, not seventy like you didn't need that, and uh um. But I think there's there's a room for that.

I also think, you know, probably sometimes for intense interviews, not you know, showing up with just a microphone, people will open up a little bit of that question without question. I think so. And one of the things that I find and you will probably feel humble about this in a way that I don't intend, like, oh, major, what are you saying that for? You have convening authority, there are people who will talk to you that enlarge this

project and these and these concepts. It feels to me, well, I hope so, I mean, that's that is nice of you to say that, and I hope so. I hope as people listen to more episodes or or see interviews that they like that I've done, um, that it will make them more open to it. I know with you know, with John Denver that there was a lot of protectiveness around him and I thought, all right, you know, um, but but who's who is the leading character of that episode?

His ex wife Annie? Yeah, and and that that had to take some doing it did I think she needed to know that this was not this was coming from I know it sounds corny, but from a place of love and it is it is which you know, Um, that's there. There's a way, you know, from a place of love to get too to make discoveries. And in the last minute or so, we have mode. It feels also that one of the things you want to help

people understand is that there is an American story. It has lots of characters, there are lots of complexities to it, and we should spend some time with it. Yeah, um, yes, uh and um yeah, and I want to tell more of those stories. And well, I mean yeah, because I really like America and I and think there are a lot of great stories and there are a lot of things to be happy and proud about, and uh, you know, and and um there are a lot of heroes and uh you know, I don't want it to be hokey

and um, but uh sure, I mean that. I hope there are many more episodes that we can keep telling stories about people who overcame struggles and achieved great things in part because they were here. So Jamie Benson, who was behind the camera with us this episode and running audio and who was an integral part of article and has been part of my success in the debrief in the take out for the better part of six years,

had an idea and you latched onto it. So let's roll with this a little basis major Why don't you think of a possible mobituary? Can I suggest one? Please? Kurt Flood? Who's Kurt Flood? Beautiful? Beautiful beautiful. I'm already intrigued. Kurt Flood played major League baseball. He played Major League baseball for the St. Louis Cardinals. He was an All Star outfielder African American. Kurt Flood went to federal court to challenge the reserve clause, which was something that existed

in Major League Baseball until Kurt Flood came along. What was the reserve clause? It said, every Major League baseball team reserved the right to keep you on their roster until they changed their mind. You could never opt out of your contract for the perpetuity of your major league career. Kurt Flood said that disabled him and every other Major League baseball player from their rights to test their value among other teams. Kurt Flood went to federal court one

his case and began the era of free agency. So that's how we got free agency. I had no idea. I had no idea. Well, I'm instantly drawn to it. Also because I know how Cardinal fans are just so fur fan and which makes the best baseball fans in the country. I've been to many baseball games in St. Louis, and they know the game. They are deeply appreciative and Missouri has a complicated history in our country sure with with race relations dating all the way back to to

pre Civil War times. Um, the dread Scott case originates in part in Missouri. Kurt Flood is an enormously important part of the American story and the assertion of rights and the searching for rights. In a different context athletics, but was in enormously important to the game we see before us today. That right, So that that's that's that's one suggestion. Um what else he got? We got a lot of We got seasons to fill a more material Now, Uh, this this can't happen yet because he's still with us.

But when the day comes, and I hope it's not soon, I believe Jerry Brown would deserve an examination for his multi decade career in politics that has more twists and turns than I think anyone comparable. Well, and also Jerry Brown, I mean at one point he went and worked in

Calcutto with mother Teresa. I mean, he's had a really contrascinating life, and he was this Roman candle in American politics early in his career, and he's very reflective about the mistakes he made and the Hubris that came with it then, And this is one of the things that I'm drawn to, not ideologically, not because of party, but because of I believe people who will stay in the arena deserve appraisal. You're staying in the arena because it's

not easy to stay in the arena. He was very high and then he went back and became a mayor in a very tough stay to be in Oakland, way up high, back down low, and then served and understood, and he learned more about being a good leader and being a good deliverer of services to a community than he rose to attorney general. Then he became governor again and ushered California into its sort of modern future. I just think he is someone who spands decades and isn't

rigid in any of those particular decades. And I love that that he went from governor to being mayor and reminds me a little bit of John Quincy Adams going from president to a house rap and that being his happiest time actually as a house rap and uh um and uh and and didn't Jerry Brown dated deper Winger also, so he's Linda Ronda Ronstad. Sorry, Bob Kerry dated deper

winger winger. I don't want to do that to different winger, but anyway, everything dated, No, no, no, uh the uh um yeah, Linda ron Stadt of course, but yeah, no, he's what an interesting life. Well, we wish him well, We wish you well, Jerry absolutely absolutely. I'm not, yeah, prematurizing that, if that's even a word, But I do think there is something worth saying about Jerry Brown because he occupies the difference and and he is an embodiment of the seventies in a certain way, a caricature of

that time. And you either stuck with that are you mature it out of it? And I think that journey is is interesting. Can you know how far we've fallen? I remember when he was in the primary against Phil was the first presidential campaign I covered, Okay, and I remember listening to W A. M U. I think it was still called there and Diane Ream and somebody called up and went, well, Governor Moonbeam, and then she went and she went, we do not insult people on this show,

and she made the caller apologize. And how far we fall in because now everyone just insults each other all the time. But then that was your authenticity to insult. I'm authentic and I don't insult. I'm Major Garrett Morocco. What a pleasure, thanks man, and you're not. And I'm eating anchovies and you're not insulting me. I mean because I'm not touching a mom, not today, not ever. That's it,

ladies and down. When we'll see you next week. The Takeout is produced by Arden Farie, Jamie Benson, Sarah Cook, Ellie Watson, Jake Rosen, and Ashley Armstrong. CBSN production by Eric Susanin. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Takeout Podcast. That's at Takeout podcast, and for more go to Takeout podcast dot com. The Takeout is a production of CBS News. I hope you enjoyed listening to this episode of The Takeout with Major Garrett, a weekly podcast

from CBS News. If you like what you heard, may I ask you to follow The take Out. Just like Mobituaries, It's available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or altogether Now wherever you get your podcasts. We'll be back next week with more new episodes from season three of Mobituaries.