Healing Wounds and Reimagining Possibilities Ft Dr. Thema Bryant

you can learn from the podcast. Enjoy the episode. All right, everyone. Welcome to mind your mental podcast today. We have one of my faves out here in these psychological streets. We have Dr Tama Bryant. She's the 2023 president of the American Psychological Association, which is the leading scientific and professional organization representing psychology with more than 120,000

members. And I will say that when I went to the APA conference, the one I went to was when, you know, when you were presiding, and I've been to ones previously, and I was like, Yo, this one has way more lowries on it. There was just so much. There was just so much more seasoning on it. I just enjoyed myself. And I saw some newer students, and they were like, Oh, this is our first year. And I said, I'm sorry, this is your first year, because your expectations this is higher

than I'm be real with you. This is actually way cooler than it typically is. So like, I was like, I literally said, like, this is a tough one to make your first one. Y'all, it's like, I've seen the bar, so I think you raised the bar a little bit too much on that some people may you know. Thank you. I had a good old time. Me. Earl was sitting there dancing. Listen, Dr Erlanger Turner, my bad. Dr Bryant has

it's so many different aspects of expertise. In addition to being a psychologist, she has also earned her master's of divinity, and is an ordained elder in the African Methodist Episcopal Church. You know, I actually, I grew up in an Episcopal AME Church. My I'm from Philly, and my mom is Baptist, but my god mom, she her church is at AME Church. I grew up hearing about Richard Allen, yes. Alright, yeah.

So when I go to churches, I'm like, you know, it's hard because, like, I grew up in, like, real, real, more, like, older school, and even my church was embedded and like, Hey everyone, just a reminder that mind, your mental is not just a podcast. It is also a amazing community. If I do say so myself, it's phenomenal. I mean, you get more access to me. What more could you want in this life? So if you want to join the community, if you're not already on the community. Go to my

social media. My social media is the same Raquel Martin, PhD, and DM me the word community, so you can get details on joining this amazing, flipping community. You get more access to me. Y'all like, I'm a delight. All right. All right. Hope to see you there individuals of African descent. So it was when I moved I was like, this, don't feel like how it felt when I was younger. Like, I'm used to good choirs. I'm also used to like everyone

being significantly older than me. So I actually felt odd when there was, like, a lot of people my age at a church, because an AME Church, like everyone's was, I'm just used to seniors, seniors, yes, hymnals, right? So I was like, I one time I went, I was looking for a church, and I was like, I saw, I couldn't see a choir, but I saw, like a guitar. And I was like, what do we do? I need to see some robes and an organ. Like, what I need at least four choirs with men. Like, I said,

like, I said, like, yes, yeah. I said, Oh, my acoustic guitar. But you know, listen, when it comes to certain things I like, what I like, you know, after church, I need to be smelling chicken. Yeah. That pound cake. Yes, like, I need, you know, I need all of it. I need to ask the lady next to me for a mint. Like, she needs to have candy in her purse that I've it's her whole experience stores. Yes, little girls with those white socks and itchy hands, like, that's adorable.

Now we have arrived. Now we have arrived. One of the reasons why I wanted to have you on the show, because you have so many realms of expertise. And I was introduced to you, I was saying earlier, I wish it was earlier, but when I was out of my training, it was towards the tail end, and I was looking more about, I think I looked up like mental health and social justice and liberation psychology comes up, and honestly, you always

come up in that aspect of it. So I thought today's episode would be fantastic, not only for current clinicians and clinicians in training, but also people who are looking for a therapist or a licensed mental health professional or something where they feel like they can relate. Because I very much saw myself in liberation psychology like I felt like the only reason why I feel like I decided to be a

psychologist was because I went to Fisk. I always say that if my first Psych class wasn't at a HBCU, I don't think I would have wanted to be a psychologist. Like it was one of the few classes psychology and black history were one of the few classes that didn't bore me to tears because I saw myself in the curriculum, like my professor was talking about jawanza canjufu And, you know, was talking about Kenneth and

Mamie Phipps Clark and all of that. And I had never known that people that looked like us, or people focusing on historically excluded populations, could also do that through science and like mental health and therapy. So I very much saw myself in that. So I was like, you know who would be great to talk about this, the person who I've always admired from afar and now up close when it comes to liberation psychology. So how would you describe liberation psychology to someone who has never heard

of the concept? And you're like, Hey, I'm gonna put you on game. Yes, it sounds like this is something for you. Yes, absolutely. So the first thing I would say is liberation psychology comes out of liberation theology, and so it's great that we started off talking about the church, because at its roots, it's holistic. Whatever someone's religious or spiritual convictions are that we don't leave the soul work out of the therapy process, and psychology

means study of the soul. So it is not limited to cognitions. It is not just about our feelings, it is not just about our behaviors. It is about you as a living soul. What is the aspect of you or the part of your client that remains, even after the stress and trauma and drama of life, and like speaking to that aspect of the person, liberation psychology is a

commitment to attend to context, that context matters. It is not just about positive thinking, it is not just that you have distorted thoughts and we don't know where those thoughts came from, but that we grow up in systems and interlocking systems of oppression that teach us to reject ourselves, to hide ourselves, to doubt ourselves, And that create and maintain a hierarchy of power, and marginalized people are at the lower end. And it's not because they're just at risk or that

they have deficits or that they need to be rescued. It is as a result of these systems. And so one of the critiques that comes from liberation psychologists to many other models is the tendency to ignore context, including oppression. But another part of liberation psychology is a commitment to not only eradicating or pushing back on oppression and healing the wounds they have within us, which includes internalized oppression when we come to believe the lies we've been told

about ourselves. But liberation is also about reimagining what is possible. So in other ways, we might hear about that as post traumatic growth. We might hear about that as positive psychology, but at its core that our work is not just about symptom cessation. So if I'm just trying to decrease your symptoms of depression, anxiety, I still have not spoken to joy, to purpose, to love, to the fullness, the abundance of life.

So it invites the therapist and the mental health professional to imagine, what can this individual, family community look like, free? What would it look like for you to live with freedom? And I really appreciate that, because I feel like when I was in my training, that was something that I felt was missing, like I knew I wanted to get into psychology and mental

health to help the black community. I was very open, and got very much a lot of pushback about saying that, like you talk about specialties and people can discuss like personality disorders and anxiety. People talk about focusing on children and adolescents and families. And through my whole entire program, anytime anyone asks me, I said, I'm focusing on I want to focus on black people. Yes, that's what I want to focus on. Yes. And I got asked things like, well, don't you think

that's pretty limiting? I don't think that's an option. And I'm like, I've always just like, well, we always say that our mental health is linked to the way the world treats us. Do black people not get treated differently than anyone else? Can we not identify that there's a difference between anxiety as a result of attachment issues versus anxiety as a result of racism related stress. Don't you think we could benefit from people who understand the intricacies of the the whole

experience? And I got so much pushback, and I was always just like, Y'all looking at me like I lost my mind. I'm looking at y'all same way, because I feel like I'm making perfect sense. And what it is, you know what you and I'm. So glad you're giving this example is people are so used to minoritized people remaining in the margins, so we are an afterthought, right? Even in therapy. Is this is the model.

And then if you want to modify it for this group, I remember when I was in training, we were learning this CBT group for boys who, you know, kept getting into conflict and trouble in school, and their idea of modifying this intervention for black kids was the affirmation statements, the statements you're supposed to say to yourself to avoid getting in trouble. They made them all rhyme, so then they would have to say, like, I won't be a fool. I won't lose my cool

now, now it's culturally congruent. I'm like, What in the world? Yeah. Or our Native American siblings have said, you know, they use the same intervention, and say, hold the feather. And now it's for us, right? So instead, as you're naming, you know what it means to to center us that in the very creation of the model we are who you have in mind, and that's

going to be a very different feeling. I think so too. When I was doing I'll never forget my dissertation defense on one of my committee meetings, and mine was on Minority Mental health disparities within children of individuals in the military diagnostic disparities. And when we were viewing the data, one of my committee members mentioned she asked, she it wasn't even, you know, sometimes people raise their hand like it's a question,

but it's really like, oh, I have a statement. I don't know that right now, right? I just need to know if I how much longer I have before I can graduate. Y'all. I need y'all to answer me that like, that's all I'm asking. Yes. She said, I noticed that you didn't go in as much detail. And the data, when it came to she said White, but I said European American data. She said, is, I think you she said, I think you could have gotten more salient information. Like, what was the reason for that?

And I said, they were not my population of interest. Yes. And I think, you know, you know, like, and sometimes I think they're like, expecting you to fill the air. And I was just like, sit with it. Yeah, more questions.

And I feel like, when it comes to modalities and therapy, and just like you mentioned, I think people will state that like, oh, it's altered or whatever adjusted for certain cultures because we made the characters have afros on them with not even thinking of like, well, no, there's a difference in the way that in things are processed, because, once again, it's inextricably linked to the way the world has treated us. And you know, I get asked questions about when's old

enough to discuss about racism or stuff like that. And I'm like, Well, I my son literally experienced racism in utero. So I'm gonna be honest with you, think about as early as someone can experience it, that's probably as early as you can discuss it. And we can't act like we're grown up in a bubble, like it's our mental health, it's our well being, just like you mentioned is the study of the soul, and I think there

aren't enough people, or there weren't. There's so many amazing models now where they're just like, it's not meant to be a comparison, right? Like, my goal is not to look at black people in comparison to anyone. My goal is to look solely within the

diversity of the black experience. And I think there's so many individuals who feel as though, and I think that's one of the biggest stressors with black people, is like we having this expectation to be in this one box where there should be more agency and there should be more talk about the diversity within the black experience. Like saying that I focus on individuals of African descent, I said. And honestly, I'm like,

that's not even enough of a specialty. Because when I tell you, you know, like, that's the range, that's a lot, that's a huge range, yes, and the piece of the intersectionality, and often, this belief that race overshadows or erases or makes, you know, everything else identical, but attention to gender and sexuality and disability and migration status, like all of those things, affect how the world sees us and treats us. You know, even the term gendered racism, you know, how

do people treat black men versus black women? What are the assumptions when they see us. And so I think people often want a quick fix, especially in like, training programs, right? And so the phrase is like, well, depression is depression? Well, actually, it's not right? Depression shows up very differently depending on your culture and your context. And so

I think people take it as a hardship or like that. It's overwhelming that there are so many different groups and peoples, but it's actually like a gift to be able to bear witness, to learn about, you know, different people's community, and then that the lens they have, like, what does this mean to them? Even the fact that they showed up in my office. You know, what does it mean, given their religion, given their race, given their age, and how that affects the healing process?

Yeah, I think there's power in the aspect of specialty, because there are places that affirm me as a black person, and maybe not as a black woman, as a black woman, and maybe not as a black mother, as a black mother, and maybe not someone who has, you know, as someone who is educated, I have a significant aspect of privilege, like, I know where I'm going to sleep every single night. I have health insurance cards, as long as I'm not, you know, going out to buy a couch, I can swipe my

card and be okay. You know, these days, grocery store visits are even getting concerned. Like, yeah, children eat way too much fresh fruit is concerning. But like, you know, like, I just understanding that, like, there's so much power in that intersection of identity. And even when you mentioned, like, the gendered aspect of it, I try to focus more on my work and research on black identity development. And I remember someone asking, like, oh, well, can we do a model where it's

just like we're looking at boys and girls in the same place? And I said actually, it's actually more helpful to look at the gendered aspect, because there are certain messages that young

boys get that young girls do not get. You know, when we talk about the reasons why depression and everything like that manifests differently, people don't always know that there are differences in cultural display rules, like if you have an entire group of individuals who have never been told or shown that it's okay to express themselves, that have been overtly or covertly told that their feelings do not matter, they're not allowed to have them there if they can't even

acknowledge emotions, let alone the range of emotions. There's a difference between being sad and depression, hungry and famished and happy and ecstatic. And you if you have a people who are so used to blunting how they feel, masking that and they can't even address it to themselves, imagine how hard it is to be across across from someone in session and appropriately assess them if you don't know that. Like, if you think, Oh, they seem angry. There must be anger if you don't know stuff. Like,

Oh, well, let's think about the anger iceberg, right? The Titanic sank because what was below the border, did it not? Yes, right? So, like, you're seeing anger, okay, that's the easy one to see. Are we also seeing shame and guilt and sadness? Like, if you, I was talking to my students about this recently, and they were asking me, students always have, like, the most they have, like, the simplest questions that I'm like, where I too and try and answer this. But they were like,

what's the she's why? What's the issue? Like, why? Why can't they just why? Why are we getting diagnosed wrong? And I was like, Okay, well, let me do something I know y'all hate. Let me ask, answer your question with a question. They're like, Oh my God, just answer the question. Do you think you can assess someone that you don't see, right? Like, do you think you can assess people you don't see and they're like, No, I'm like, okay, so

that gets to the colorblind perspective, right? Do you think you can appropriately assess someone that you're afraid of and they're like, Well, no, I'm like, Well, you know, a lot of people genuinely just fear black skin. Do you think that you can assess someone that you haven't taken the time to learn about their individual experience. Like, could you own could do you think you can appropriately assess men if you've only ever worked with women? And they're like, No, I'm like, Would it

surprise you to know I'm at HBCU? I was like, there are people who don't have a significant amount of experience outside of media, which has stereotypes outside of books, if they see them with black people. I was like, Y'all, I know we in Nashville and we're at HBCU, but I'll be honest with you guys, not everyone is going to see black people, let alone in person, let alone have conversations with them, and they can still become licensed and work with this population.

How hard would it be to do an appropriate assessment of a man. If you've never worked with a man in your life, and you're like, I've only had women participants. But this is, I'm sure it's similar. I'm sure this vibe. I'm sure this is cool. This is cool. Just show me where the ovaries are and be like, what? Because that's literally how. Because, in my opinion, that's how bad it is. Like, Man, this person seems so hyper vigilant, like, Oh my

God, oh, what the heck their problem is? Yeah, they're black. Vigilance, yes, yeah, vigilance for survival. Because I've said oftentimes it's a privilege to not have to read the room, in my opinion. Yeah, there's, I don't know, many black people don't scan the room to see safety. Yeah. I was talking to one of one of the trainees, and she was like, it's hard to understand. And I was like, okay, so you're a woman, do you not scan the room if you're in a room full of men?

She was like, yeah. I was like, the hyper vigilance that that most a lot of women feel when they're the only woman. I was like, think about that. But think about that with the world. Like, imagine if you were only in rooms where you're like, one of the few women there, imagine if you were only in rooms, whether you're going to work, school, home, how would you feel? And she's like, Oh, I'd be stressed out, yeah, and it's awful. That's like, you

know, the thought process. Because a lot of women can relate to that. A lot of women can relate to holding their keys in their hand. A lot of women can relate to. Oh, I'm not parking on the bottom floor. I'm not gonna be able to go to this place, because I can't do that. A lot of women can relate to it's dark. I'm not. I'm have to spend the night at your house, girl, because I'm not. I can't walk home. That's what a lot of black people feel like, hyper

vigilance. I get uncomfortable around police all the time, and I'm a stand up citizen, like, I may be a little radical, but I'm a stand up citizen, and every time I'm like, imagine feeling that all of the time, and then going to therapy for months, even years, and never being invited to talk about it. You know, it's like, you don't even know this client. You don't even know them. Whatever you all have been working on has been a

fraction a glimpse of who this person is. So a part of liberation also is to see people wholly and completely, and also to know, along with cultural oppression, there's also just the gift of culture. Along with race, there's also there's not just racism, but it is like the gift is when people say, we not

only have ancestral wounds, but ancestral wisdom. So liberation doesn't mean that now every session has to be about the trauma and terrorists historically and in the present, that in the liberation there's also, you know, what is the wisdom that either directly or indirectly, you got from your community about how to navigate these spaces, even if you're the first one on the college campus, they showed you some things about how to preserve yourself, protect yourself, nourish

yourself and and if you know had interracial adoption or your parents just never talked about it, that it's not too late to learn so some people learn These strategies growing up with like, racial and gender socialization, and some people's families thought that the silence was to protect them, right, that if I don't talk about it right, then they will just feel confident,

and then they can just go conquer the world. And so that being unprepared often then leads to more of the blame and shame of like, I must be doing something wrong, because if it's a meritocracy, you get rewarded by how hard you work, and I keep hitting that glass ceiling, then, like, what's wrong with me versus this system is operating in the way it was designed, and

it was designed to keep you out and you are still worthy. That's one of the reasons why I try to focus on you hear so much about breaking generational curses, and I'm always like, or, how about we talk about building generational bonds? I don't know. I got language a little bit later. Can we focus on that language? How would that look in session? Like, how would you

like say someone's looking for a clinician? And you know, they're not, you know how you state clinical psychologist or clinical social worker, and they're not outright stating that, like, oh, I also identify as liberation psychologist. How would that look in session? Like, what are some signs you'd be like, Okay, I think this person is actually leading in the aspect of liberation like, what, what would that look like

in session? Right? So, you know, a question that is you can commonly ask is, you know, along with whatever this presenting problem is, my relationship problems, my financial stress, panic attacks, you know, a big part of my identity is my race, is my gender, is my sexuality? What is your experience with working with people with my same identity, and what are your thoughts about how discrimination could be

affecting my mental health? Like that's an easy question. So if they're stumbling, if they say, I see people as people, I'm out. This is a part of my identity. You know, if they tell you they used to date a black person, I'm out that's not what I asked. So they should have a comfort with being able, and it shouldn't be like a surprise or startling that you're wondering their ability and also their mindset, right? You know, if anything, I'm so glad you asked that question. I think it's

fundamental. And here are the ways that I approach it or look at it. And then if you don't feel comfortable like initiating that exchange, and do know, when you go to therapy, they're seeing if they're a match for you, but you also are seeing if this person is a match. But you know, so we have, in the beginning, it's usually what's called an intake session. So we ask you questions about all the things psychologists have decided are important, because we want to get an idea of you.

Once we have an idea of you, then we're going to come up with the treatment goals together of what are we working on? So they're going to ask you about your work history, they're going to ask you about your relationship history. They'll ask you about your health, about substance use, if they ask you a bunch of questions and don't ask you anything about your various identities or about bullying or stereotype or oppression, they're not tuned in. They're not so that.

Would be a warning and you and now they might be following the clinic form, and maybe they have other consciousness, and it's not reflected in the form. And then I could just say, when you a lot of times, they'll ask about trauma history. So you know, you asked about the stress and trauma in my life. Is this a good time for me to tell you about how racism has affected me, and even with that, you're having to work too hard, in my

opinion, because they should be creating the environment. But if you want to give it a try, because I have had people who say I like them for everything else, but I think I'm going to have to go to somebody else to address the racism, right? And so, you know, if it feels like a good connection, this is someone I feel like I can relate to in general, where they gave me some helpful things about my eating disorder or a panic, you know,

then you can offer. I was hoping we could address this and see what they do with that. Yes, see, this is why I love Dr Taylor. So once again, I always say like, you know I loved you before I met you. But because I have a finding a therapist, guide, and I have, like, the typical questions, like, Okay, let's get to this money. How much we charge you do with life scale? But I also have a section it's like, hey, so some important aspects of my

identity, or this and this, do you understand that? Do you Do you grasp these topics? Have you worked with anyone with these

intersecting identities? And I always tell people, it's also as important, it's important to see what they say, also what they don't say, because you can tell when people are uncomfortable discussing racism, or, you know, I'm okay with people not understanding everything, I get to decide if that's okay, but like, I don't like when people when you can tell somebody doesn't know what they're talking about, but they don't feel comfortable. Like, now, comfortable acknowledging that.

That's odd to me, because it's like, here's the thing, I'm not gonna know everything, and you're not gonna know everything, but if you don't feel comfortable, as the clinician in the room, admitting that you don't know something, yeah, because that's not being genuine to me, it's not and it makes our radar go off of like the vigilance of, as you said, I'm scanning to see is this safe? And let me say

authentically, authenticity is safe, right? If someone authentically doesn't know, and they know they don't know, then okay, I can decide what I want to do with that, right? But the pretending, or the like pulling in stuff that does not matter here, because it's the only way you can think you can relate to me now, like now we're that's creating ruptures and problems.

It's one of the reasons why I say I think people of the global majority tend to have the best BS meter, because when you are forced to wear a mask all the time, you can recognize when someone else is wearing masks. I think that's why it's very good for us to suss out authenticity, because it's just like, now, as someone who literally has to do this to survive, I too, can tell that you don't know what you're talking about, and I don't think

you're being genuine. So it's gonna be a no. It's one of the reasons why I'm like, I did this post about like, yeah, I don't like when certain people call me girl like it's infantilizing, and sometimes I feel like you you feel like you have to like when they made it rhyme in that example, right? You Why can't you just engage with me as a human, you know, on that aspect of humanity, instead of being like, will we gotta make it rhyme? Because you're not, right? Yeah, that's what they

like. They like the rhyming. They like the rhyme. And it's a forced familiarity, right? When we call each other girl, there's a either a knowing of the other in the immediate or ancestrally, like we probably cousins, right, collective identity, yes, and so to not be of the community and to spontaneously say that at the first meeting, then it is an assumption of connection that does not yet exist. Somebody said something. It was a woman, she but this is also like being on social media.

Some people have. They just reside outside their minds. And sometimes they catch me on a good day and they said something, sis, and I'm like, you don't insult my parents. I do not know you. Okay. That's not how I was reared. Okay. You're not gonna insult my mom, because my mom raised me right, okay? And she raised me and my mom, my parents raised their

sibling, all of us, right? And to say, sis, feel like you insulted my mom right now, along the lines of this dynamic, it also raises that, you know, the diversity within the community. So it's like one person can't give you a pass for everybody else, but some people may be cool with it. So I will say, like on social media and comments, many people have started calling me auntie. I'm good with that. I think about our aunt Maxine, that's fine,

right? If I was in a mall like so it's out of this context. I feel like this, whatever IG relationship that we are all dwelling in. But if someone just walked up to me on the street and said it, then it would be like, what about me made you think or associate? Leave with your aunt, right? Your caretaker, right? Your

caretaker, because that's the big thing, right? Like, the aspect of I automatically go to the mammy stereotype because I'm like, yes, because I'm supposed to care for you, correct, right? Yeah, it's gonna help. Okay, well, it is. Listen, it's not for me, you know, like, I'm sure one day I'm gonna get more but every single time on social media, I'll be like, media, I like, listen, being a psychologist is what I do. It's not who I am. Okay? Everyone can catch these hands if you act

like you're right. Now, I as people are like, what about your patience? You're not my patient, right? You didn't receive an invoice, did you? You're not my patient? Yeah, my caseload is full. Oh, come on. And honoring this person I appreciate is leaning into the humanity. I think both psychologists and as black women, they're going to be a tendency to dehumanize and so like you, insist that they encounter your humanity, right? That's what you do in the way you show up. It's like, No,

you're gonna you're gonna be reminded regularly. This is a human being you're interacting with, which I think is necessary, and unfortunately, radical. I know radical. I love being called Red, if I'm not gonna lie, it's good. It's like, well, in order to be an agent of

change, you cannot stick with the status quo. It's one of my favorite one of my favorite things, yeah, well, okay, I have one more question, because we have a lot of clinicians who are out there, what would it look like to if they're in their training, or even if they've graduated and they're like, this

is something that really resonates with me. What would it look like to try to work towards integrating more liberation in their training, if they're in school or in their continued education, if they're out of it like, what would it look like to go this route? Yes. So fortunately, the American Psychological Association published a book on Liberation psychology, and so I would encourage you to get the book.

The beautiful part about the way it's set up is it gives kind of a general overview, but then it talks about applying liberation psychology to particular populations. So that's an excellent resource on YouTube. There are a couple of like, webinars I've been in and other people have done, if you just search liberation psychology, and you know, be too late for you to get your little CE, but you can still get the

information. And then I would just say, as a practice, one of the interventions is testimonials, which is, you know, starting with mindfulness practice, getting people into the body, but then inviting them to talk about experiences of discrimination and how it felt to them, what the thoughts were that came up, how they managed it, how they navigated it, to do

that heart listening. And the interesting thing about the way testimonials is presented, when we talk about disclosure of the professional as you can also share your experience you've had with racism and how it affected you and how you deal with it. So that's just one of the ways of inviting it in from that narrative therapy perspective. And I love that, because one of the things that I really gravitated towards was honoring

it's in research. I've always liked qualitative better, because I always tell my students, you can turn words into numbers, but you can never turn numbers into words. If you did a survey and 70% of people in that survey, you found out they were depressed. What would be your next question? Why I feel like when it comes to the kind of research that I'm interested in, and especially the population of interest, I like being able to honor the narratives, like honor the voices that were so often

silenced. Like, I want to hear you talk. I don't want to do the survey, but I want you to tell me there is no right or wrong answer. And I think also in therapy, a lot of times there can be different perspectives, where it's just like you're not supposed to share any aspect of yourself or your experience. And I never really gravitated with that in the first place. So I really appreciate that aspect of it. Well, that's doctor. That's

the doctor. Tell everybody where they can find you. You have your podcast. So my podcast, well as your book, Homecoming, the book that's already out is called homecoming, and the workbook for Homecoming is coming out this June. I invite you to pre order

it. The name of it is reclaim yourself, and it's available wherever books are sold, perfect and social media, the interwebs, yes, you can follow me as Dr tama, and it's spelled as it appears on the screen, D, R, T, H, E, M, a, on x and Instagram and threads and tick tock, LinkedIn. But I'm not very early on LinkedIn, but yes, I encourage you to fight. Follow me. My website is Dr tama.com, thank you so much, Doctor tama, we very much appreciate it. I'm

not on LinkedIn as much either. It's not as fun to me. I need, like, a Yes, show me what you're which stages you're on, but I need to. I need a laugh too. Yes. Like, here are you? Like, yeah, I need some. I'm just, like, there are no videos on this platform. I'm just looking at words. That's what I wanted to read, a book, videos. Well, I so appreciate you. Appreciate your work. You are such a gift. And so forth. The sacrifice of time, energy,

effort that you spend to educate us and to inspire us. On behalf of the community here, national, global community, I want to say, thank you. Thank you. Oh, my goodness, I'm going to put that be my ringtone. Thank you. I love it. But thank you so much. And everyone, as always, remember to be kind to yourself. Two steps forward and one step back is still one step forward. That is just math. Y'all. Have a good day, night, week, whatever you're doing. And thank you so

much for listening to the show. Bye.