Exploring the Complexity of Black Identity ft Touré

you can learn from the podcast. Enjoy the episode, but thank you so much for coming on the show. One of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you today was I saw your post about what led to you writing your first book, who's afraid of post blackness, what it means to be black now, and it instantly made me think of the conceptual framework I've been trying to come up with for black

identity development. I've always felt that the other ones are kind of limiting, because not limiting, okay, I don't want to say limiting. As a scientist, I've always felt as though, when I've read them, that we were missing a certain aspect of it. And I don't know if you're aware of me, but I'm a professor at Tsu. I'm also a psychologist, but I also publish tsu, Tennessee State University. Yeah, great, cool.

And one of the things in teaching is that I've noticed that I feel like there are different things that are being missed from the frameworks that are out there and engaging with the students and things of that nature. One of the I am an intellectual, not an academic, not an academician, right? And I understand the difference, right? And one of the things I noticed in the book, because there's folks from the Academy, and then there's smart, regular folks in the book, and the

notion of the performance of the blackness as a performance. To all the academicians, were like, yes, of course, and to almost all civilians, was offensive and triggering. And like, What are you talking about? It's not a performance. It's just who I am. And just explaining to them the notion of, well, personality is a performance. And it was like, this was like, just even the idea that personality was a performance was revolutionary to

them. There's a space just, it's just kind of an awareness of what we're talking about, as far as fluidity. But yes, I don't feel comfortable with any definition of blackness that excludes any black person, right? And including traitorous choices with it, right? Like Candace Owens is a traitor to blackness, right? Where one might, you know, I can name any number of people who we might agree, like that person's an Oreo, right? Like in the traditional vision of what that

means, right? But even those choices are African American choices to the situation that we're in, right? So it couldn't just be, you know, one of the, one of the things that we talk about, the notion of a sense of an essentialist vision of what blackness means really redounds to it's really about being from the hood, as if blackness, as if the hood is the refrigerator and blackness is the milk, and the longer it goes outside of the

fridge, it spoils, right? And I was like, like, you could be black in Beverly Hills and PG County and, like, with money. And like, you know, it doesn't have to be hood. It doesn't have to be, you know, rooted in James Brown. It could be many

different things. Yeah, because even with your mention of like the individuals who are catastrophic to the black experience, like to quote your book, you specifically mentioned, I think what Clarence Thomas has done on the Supreme Court is wholly destructive to black folk, and I'm willing to root my arguments about his catastrophic performance in Reason claims about politics and race, but he isn't any less

black than I am. He's got a different take on blackness and race than I do mean we are all responding to racism in one way or another. Yeah, many of us choose to respond to racism by building community, right? And I feel safe because I see a person like you, and I can talk to you and bond with you, and I feel like, well, she's a sister, so I should be able to feel close to her. And he's responding to racism also, he's just choosing a different response and thinking that you know being

aligning with them will keep him safe. Hey, everyone, just a reminder that mind, your mental is not just a podcast. It is also a amazing community. If I do say so myself, it's phenomenal. I mean, you get more access to me. What more could you want in this life? So if you want to join the community, if you're not already on the community, go to my social media. My social media is the same Raquel Martin, PhD and DM me the word community so you can get details on joining this

amazing, flipping community. You get more access to me. Y'all like, I'm a delight. All right. All right. Hope to see you there. I wholeheartedly try to and. Body and work in the aspect of like, I'm not only pro blackness that mirrors my own, and then I also instantly get pissed when I hear people's names in that realm that I think have also

been kind of shocked to the black experience. And then there's always this conflict with that whole aspect of like, all right now, well, you can't say I'm only pro blackness, that I'm only I can't say I'm only pro blackness when it doesn't, you know, I'm not only pro black when it means my own and then still get mad and just be like, because I've never stated the aspect of like people aren't black enough as someone who's had the, you know, penultimate insult of being, like, talking

white. But it's, I feel like it's also tough. It's also like, really tough to be like, All right, I'll be real, though. That man pisses me off. I mean, it kind of becomes a little semantic, almost, because I'm just saying these are all responses to being black in America, yeah. Now, now that is a problematic and troubling response. Condoleezza Rice, Candace Owens, Jason Whitlock, like that's a horrible response,

right? That is anti the community as opposed but I'm not saying those are not they are in many ways, anti black, but they are not black, right? Like, we're missing it if we think you're not black. Now, if you categorize it as they are anti black, absolutely. And I push back against the notion that black people can't be racist by saying, Well, you know, Candace Owens is one obvious example. Is working in service of white supremacy. She doesn't have the power, right? That argument's

always like, well, always certain people have power. She has power in her world to make us look bad and give comfort and space and power to racist people. So she's working in service of white supremacy. So that is racism, that is active racism. You know, the other part of the notion still stands. But I'm like, of course we could be racist, right there. Yeah, I get pushback on that all the time, and I think it's I'm sorry. One thing you'll see, I'm sorry what I do, just remind I haven't

thought about this book a long time. One thing that I see, I think that we put that I found that comes in about the middle of the book, a psychological study, I found that, like, even black people who are not, I don't know how to frame this like who are not I'm gonna colloquially, I'm not all there very few black people wish to be white, right? That's very rare,

right? So it's not that we want to escape blackness and become white, but I think some of us do see a value and a power in surrounding yourself with them and not threatening them. That's the thing, right? That if you are non, if you are too non threatening to white people, then we get upset, right? Like we like to see us like you're

willing to tell them off, right? You're willing to scratch them right, as opposed to, like, you know, I've seen a lot of right, righteous attack on Emmanuel acho recently, who did this horrible white centric show, right? Did you ever see it? Because, yeah, I did a response to just his statement to Angel Reese. Because it really bad, for sure. Yeah, but he did this whole white centric show where he would talk to white people about racism, and it's very much like, let's sit and make you

comfortable to have a conversation with a black man. I think it was uncomfortable conversations and but it was this group of white people were like, Let's make it easy for you to have this conversation and say that you feel bad about like you're just helping the whites, but you're completely non threatening. And that bothers us, right? When we're like, you're completely non threatening to the whites, like, I even think that aspect of when you mentioned the you know, the

proximity, it's out of fear, right? Because it's just like you understand that closeness. If you're trying to get closer to whiteness, it's because you know that if you're seen as safe, maybe you won't be as less dangerous, maybe you'll have some aspect of freedom and and it, I mean, like in your book, you particularly mentioned, when you did the show, I'll try

anything once, right? And you were talking in the book about, like, and also, I know you haven't thought about the book in a while, but, like, I kind of think you should redo with the same questions, with new people. Just going to throw that out there, but because the questions you have in the beginning are

really good questions. So I know you haven't thought about it in a while, but I think it's worth it to do the entire, you know, do like it and do it with new people, because the questions are really

good. Thank you. And I would, you know, anyway, but when you mentioned that aspect of the it was the story about jumping out of the jumping out of plane skydiving, and you mentioned you were sitting at the table before you went skydiving, and there were three black gentlemen who recognized you, and you told them what you were doing, and they were like, Oh, we don't black people. Don't do that. And like, it seemed like, from what I read, it was like whispering in a tone because you were

sitting with non black people. And they were just like. Like, Oh, I just want to wake you up. Like, I just want to, you know, what is it? Hit the tea, hit the spoon on the teacup, because you must be out of it. We don't do that, right? And I instantly knew what you were talking about, because the Whisper is just like, it's the Whisper. And one of the things you mentioned is how you know it's limiting to be in that realm, right? Like, a lot of the things that you mentioned in the

book are how these thought processes are limiting. I forget who you were interviewing particularly, but they mentioned they hated the concept of being real, because that just made it limiting. Even in this example, you just gave about, like, blackness being in the fridge, and the longer the fridge being the hood, the longer in the hood, the more salient it is.

You could come out with that. And I've always felt as though, and it is very much true, that like that is kind of what like chokes us in terms of getting out there and knowing more about ourselves and as a result, contributing to the community

and the way it deserves. Because the same way you mentioned that, like European American children have been doing people have been doing this their whole life, that freedom, that whole stereotypical aspect of it, that whole, there's only one right way to be black, that whole, like adultification, dehumanization, all it does is contributes to white supremacy, but that robs our freedoms, and in doing so, we're honestly, in my opinion, contributing to the sublimation of the black

experience and what we can become under the guise of being black enough, if that makes sense, like it's because it's just limiting, Right? Like, the whole reason why I think it's infuriating, because it's just like, you know, and in stating that there's one right way to be black, you're trying to basically, like, hone in on the black experience and save our culture. But in doing that, you're actually robbing us of

the possibility of our culture to grow. And I don't think many people see it that way, which can be difficult, definitely seen over my years, especially like 70s and 80s, there'll be these little clubs, uh, black skiers, black scuba divers, who were doing things that black people don't do, right? And they were like, We're doing them. And there was this air of like we need to show others like, this is cool. It's cool to ski, it's cool to skydive, it's cool to scuba dive, whatever it may be.

And like they they did it out of love, but also a sense of like, you know, we're we can take our blackness is portable, like we could take it with us to scuba diving, to skiing, whatever. And like, you know, these places may or may not want us, but we're going anyway, but also making sure that other black people know, like, it's cool, and like when you and then when you see it, like, Look at these cool guys, wet scuba diving, you

know. And these women, they went scuba diving, oh, like, it's cool, you know, you're realized, like, it's fine for us to go anywhere now. I mean, I personally have had some success in my career as far as being able to code switch, right? And, I mean, I think everybody has to some extent. Well, wait, do you think it's code switching or masking? Do you think it's code switching or masking? No, there's, well, there's

absolutely code switching for sure. I mean, like I am performing different modes of my personality with different audiences, and I am, because of my particular background, I am maybe a little bit better at it than x person, right? There's others who are better than me, right? But I'm a little bit

better than this other bird, right? Because, I mean, like, I'm 12 years in in New England private school, so I knew very well how to, when I came to New York to be a writer, I knew how to talk to the whites so that they felt very comfortable with my intelligence, with having me around, you know, you understand like, you know, if you make them feel like they're racist, that's like the let's that's the thing that will, You know, but you also need to stand your ground when things happen right, when

things are said that really hurt you, right? But just, you know, just there was a time when I then there was, let's say, a group of people who had come to New York, maybe seven, six or seven of us who had come to New York from around the country, some from New York, but some from other places, Detroit, LA, whatever, to be writers about hip hop, right? I dream of writing about hip hop. I came to New York. I'm trying to do this. And most of that, all the rest of them were writing for black

publications, the source, double XL, stuff like that. I vibe. I was writing for Rolling Stone, and I was really the only one at that stage that got on at a white publication. But that stage of history, and, you know, you could, I could see, I think others could see, like he can talk to the. White's a little bit better. So then we can, right? I mean, I

think they would have said we don't want what he has. But there, I think there was an understanding of, like, just, you know, just how to communicate with them is really, is really important. Do you refuse code switching? Because the reason why I try to differentiate between code switching and masking is just root word wise, code means language switching means back and forth. So I find code switching to be solely language. However, the aspect of masking

is what I find most black people to be doing. And the reason why it's important to differentiate between the two is because masking contributes to greater aspects of suicide, ideation, burnout, anxiety, depression, loss of identity. I'm not pretending to be something. I'm not in the code switching. I am speaking and masking to me suggests hiding something. I am

speaking appropriately to the audience. I don't speak to my little niece the same way I speak to my grandmother, but I am still me, but I understand, if I do the high voice and very direct words, she will understand, right? If I do a softer tone, right with my grandma, like she'll understand that talk to my friends a different way. I'm not being myself. I'm just putting is it exhausting? I mean, you know

that? I mean, that's a much bigger question. And always strive to have my work be black centric, right? So my imagined reader is a black person, and thinking about what they know and don't know and what they care about and don't care about. And that goes down like granularly in sentences. Somebody, I was on television reading something once, and somebody said they was, we were talking about Cassius Clay, and when he changed his name, it was very controversial. And I was

like, wait a whoa. Hold on. It was not controversial to black people. So what are we saying here? Right? We have to change this sentence, because this is only reflecting white people's opinion. Because black people, my father used to talk about black people, were like, go ahead. Like, we're down first one. Be like, if you like it, I love it, even if we don't even

like it, you know. Like, just be like, All right, okay, but the movement to the public movement to Islam, from, you know, Kareem Ali, some other people, like black people, were like, the most black people were like, That's fine. Like, you know, we were thinking about being turning Islam ourselves. So, like, that, you did it. Like, that's cool. It was controversial white people. But I'm so, I'm like, I'm not saying, you know, but I mean, like, you gotta do what you gotta do to

get along with your co workers sometimes. And, you know, I don't feel like I'm giving something up because I didn't say ain't, because that would not communicate to them, and it reads to you, and it means something to you, right? I'm being in communion with you when I say, you know, my sister ain't no, but like, I don't need to say that to them. Like, that's not the audience. Do you think there's a time where you where

can you identify? A time where you feel like you were masking, or do you feel like you've never had to that? I was masking. You mean, like hiding, you know, I mean my See, part of the thing is, well, you're saying hiding. But my career has been in almost entirely writing about Black culture and black subjects, even if I'm at a white publication, New York Times, Rolling Stone, what have you, art form, whatever, I'm still the black guy writing about

black stuff. Okay, so I'm never having to pretend or mask. You know? I'm just, I just need to be able to communicate. I am smart enough to talk about this culture in your white publication and to make it see part of the game is to make it clear to them that this is valuable. So because I'm part of a period when we still kind of had to argue for at the beginning, we still had to argue for the viability and importance of hip hop in these mainstream

publications. We had a whole when Snoop Dogg was doing his debut album, solo album. There's a whole argument with the New York Times about whether or not this even merited coverage. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding. This is, like, the biggest they didn't really get it. It took, I took a month. I just remembered this. It took a month of conversation. I mean, like every single day on the phone with the editor and.

Talking, and he's black, but he has to go to white people above him, and to talking about Snoop Dogg every day to finally get him to be like, Okay, I think this will work. I think we can. I can sell this to them. They didn't get it. And part, I think part of the thing that made it work was the notion that Snoop within his voice carries notes of the great migration, because his people are from Mississippi, and he sounds like he has a southern accent, even though he's from Southern California.

So you can hear that in like the twang is very Southern California, but it's also reminiscent of Mississippi and the Deep South. So when I'm able to bring in that level of analysis of Snoop beyond just he's a great rapper, then they were able to be like, Okay, this makes sense for us so there's no masking. I'm not pretending to not be black. I'm

not. I'm trying to say, I'm trying to say, blackness is deeper than you realize, and I have to fight to get them to see it, and I may have to use their verbal tools to get them to see it. But then I'm we're talking about blackness the whole time. Yeah, I get that. I guess I never see it as a pretending. I mean, it's just academia wise. It's typically, I guess it is an aspect of pretending, but it's seen as a survival technique, like it's a

survival strategy. Honestly, the most, the majority of the research that's done when it comes to masking is with individuals with autism spectrum disorder, and then in doing the research and that, I'm like, Oh, this is what most black people do every day. I don't see many but I don't see the way that you're able to limit it to language. I don't see all black people doing that, or even having the ability to do that. I see that in terms of changing their voice and their laugh and

their posture. I had a patient at one point who was a taller black man who would literally shrink himself and not be standing in meetings because he felt his height would be perceived as threatening to people, right, changing the clothes, changing the topics that they even discussed, which, like I, I see it differently. I don't I see it as a survival strategy, and maybe, and thinking of talking to you about it and that pretending aspect of it, they're pretending as a way

to survive. But I've seen it in more than communication. I would not, yeah, I would not question the research that you've gotten from, you know, looking at multiple patients. I would say that for me, because I was talking about, I'm here to talk about Black culture, be it on CNN or rolling stone or wherever. I still feel comfortable communicating a certain amount of, yeah, I'm black. Like, I don't have to hide myself, you

know. I mean, like, like, you know. So I don't have to separate myself from that, you know, because I'm clearly going to talk about the black subjects. I'm here to talk about the black subjects, yeah, I mean, you know, I think part of being in, part of the private school experience, was like, you know, here's how to be black within that. So we're not

erasing that part of ourselves. For you, we are figuring out how to present that in a way that we can all still get along and I get what I need out of this exchange, but I never want you to forget that I'm black because that I know that is part of what makes me valuable in these media spaces, yeah, and I don't want to be the only one, but if I understand that I am the only one, then I need to make sure

you don't like I love being black. I'm all about that, and I'm going to bring that into my work see for me at Rolling Stone, especially I went through this. I It was very hard to get an assignment to write about a white person. And they would ask me questions in my earlier years, stuff like, you know, Can you can you write about a white person? Like, when I was first, like, do your hands just like, tighten up as soon as you write the word Madonna,

right? Like, even when, when I was the first time I met with somebody, a top editor, asking if I could go from freelance to a contract writer, which meant, you know, we have to give you, you know, eight or 10 stories a year, whatever it was, because, like,

you know you're on contract now. And the guy said, Well, we know you can write about Run DMC, but could you write about Bob Dylan say, like, I don't have the flexibility, and I'm going, I don't remember what I said, because, as I don't know if I can defeat this argument in the room. I have to defeat it in a different way. But I'm like, Bob Dylan comes directly from black music. So is Eric Clapton. He said, Eric Clapton. He said, Eric Clapton. And that's why I

was like, he's a blues artist. Like, what are you talking about? And I mean, I'm like 26 at the time, and he's like 50, so I don't know, I don't have the spirits that I would now to be like, that's like, the worst example you could give, like, he's a blues artist. Like, it would be incredibly valuable for us, me and Eric Clapton, to have a conversation about the blues and talk to a black person about the blues. But you know, that's

the notion of like, well, we see you able to do black stuff. So if I know that you see me able to do black stuff, I'm comfortable coming into the situation is like, Yeah, I'm a black person. I love hip hop. I was at the club last night. I feel very comfortable. You should feel comfortable sending me out to hang out with rappers. Because, like, that's my cousins, that's my brothers. Like, that's easy stuff for me talking to you, not you Dr Martin, but you white editor of

Rolling Stone, that I can also do, right? But you know, but you know, you don't have to question, can he go hang out with A Tribe Called Quest? We know that. But also, look, he's in this room with his editor, having a very writerly conversation, like I he I didn't see it as exhausting. I think the space that I was able to occupy was enough for me. Just now, you mentioned I didn't know if this was something that I was going to I think you said, fight in the room or outside of the

room. Can you explain the difference to me with that like, because I'm sure many people have had issues, and I like the fact that you differentiated in the room or outside the room. So can you share more about what that looks like? You're Yeah, you're in the midst of a corporate structure. Let's say there's 10 people there. The top person is not your ally. They are the ultimate decider of what happens, right? I am interacting with the top person.

I am in this part of my life. I am low on this in this group of 10 people, right? And I'm trying to move up the number two or three person is my ace. They are vouching for me. That's why I was able to get into the top 10, right? Because the number two or three, maybe two, three and four are like, we

really like him. He's really good. The number one person is like, I'm still not sure I could argue with the number one person, and I may not get what I want out of that, because challenging the number one person as the number 10 person could be insulting to them, right? You can't defrock them. You can't tell them you're wrong. You're an idiot, like you have to speak to them in a way that allows them to change their mind without feeling like they were wrong, and you engaging in

a direct logical argument. Sir. Eric Clapton is a blues artist. Of course, I could do that. Maine may be like, they, you have to know the person. They may be like, good idea. That's You're right. But what about Kurt Cobain, like, okay, so that that right. They don't come from the blues, right? So that harder, or you could retreat from that specific meeting and that specific conversation, because you're not trying to get a job. You're already in this corporate structure. You're just trying to

move up to get a new project, to get a new title, whatever. So go back to the people who are your aces, and speak to them and get them to be your ally and to speak to the top person about hey, I really think he would be good for that project. Better to come from somebody else advocating for you than you fighting for yourself. And why is it important to not let them know they were wrong?

Nobody likes to be told that they're wrong. And the higher you move up in any structure, in any human structure, the less often you'll be told that you know and like when you are told you're wrong, for the most part, humans get defensive, and they generally won't change. People generally don't change their mind when presented with information that shows that they were wrong. Most of the time, most people are not won over by

a logical appeal. They are won over by an emotional appeal more often, but please does not work in any corporate setting. So, so I'm just saying yeah, that it's about marshaling allies to talk up for you, as opposed. You arguing as if you're in a as if you're in a debate, you're not in a debate. It's not about the idea, the specific idea, it's about the opinion in that group of you.

And if you get another person in that group to argue on your behalf, they are saying, I stand beside Dr Martin, she's cool. She deserves tenure. I you know, like I'm I think she's a great addition to our full time staff, whatever it is. But also you are not in a powerful position when you're saying my resume is the facts of why I deserve X are. That is not a powerful position somebody else who knows, yo, she's been here 15 years. She has two PhDs. She wrote three books. She should get tenure.

That person going above the number 234, person going above, saying she deserves tenure, or whatever it is we're talking about, that is more powerful than you advocating for yourself. So that's how I'm saying that I can I win this argument in this room? I don't know, and I don't want to get into a small ball. The point is, Can I do the job? Right? The small ball argument, can you write about this specific old,

white person like, I don't want to engage in that. I want you to know I can do the job, and the number two guy can come back in here later chill it out and tell you, like, Yo, he can definitely do the job. And I ended up getting the job of retreating from that room talking to somebody else. I didn't tell him a sob story. It was just like, hey, I really want to be on contract. And he's like, Okay, let me go talk to Bob and figure it out.

Yeah? I mean, I feel like I talk about that all day, but I don't want to waste, I'm not waste your time, but I know you're I just, I just have a natural contrarian. I just, yeah, I mean, like, I would want you would argue with him. Well, it's not, it's not, it's not argument, right? Because, like, these are just facts. Earth is round, water is wet. I can't I can do this like, it's not an argument. Like, this is just

what it is. But there's also that aspect of, I feel like the reason why we're having issues that we are having now was because people aren't told that they're wrong, and it's because of their power, and because of that individuals rightfully so have, like, a fear, but not telling people that they're wrong. And then the aspect of like, you have people who will go around and be like, they'll advocate for you, but some people aren't going to do that. So the person is never

going to be told that they're wrong. They're going to keep doing wrong things. Their level of power is going to create, like, a great silo for that. And it's because, well, nobody likes being told they're wrong. Well, work on yourself and stop being

wrong. I just I don't, I know nobody likes it, but I think there's a way to, I know the way that you're talking about doing it, but I would want to do it in the room, because I think what you're talking about is the epitome of like, well, we're not talking about like. You got to know who calling in versus calling out. Yeah, you may feel like I have a relationship with this leader that allows me to say, I mean, you know, context, look, yeah, I mean, you know, if you

have that relationship, then go for it. You know, if you don't, then you can retreat and say, I'm gonna get my ally to to do this for me. But I mean, I know just from personal experience, when someone says you're wrong, I get defensive. If somebody says, Let me show you another way to look at it, I'm like, oh, okay, tell me. And like, Well, I would look at it this way. And it's

like, Oh, you didn't say I was wrong. You allowed me to feel good about what I believe, but you also showed me a new way. Like, okay, all right, I feel validated. And at the same time pointed to a new way of seeing things. But you know, when you're with that's talking about ideas, if you're talking about yourself, it's just maybe trickier. Yeah. I mean, this is not a this is not necessarily the tactic you have to use in

every situation. No, you asked me about that idea of arguing outside the room, yeah, and I'll just end up this one, because I think that this is something that I would really like to hear more from you about. What do you feel like now? I mean, you wrote this book. When did you write this book? 2010 I think 2010 2012 so at least a decade ago, 2010 because they were like, You better hurry up and finish this, because we don't know if Obama

will be reelected, then we're not publishing this. We're not publishing this. But it was like this. You have to get this done before Obama is running again. Well, something you talk about a lot is being rooted in, but not restricted by. Race, what do you think that looks like? Now, I mean, look, I don't think that looks much different. Now, there are things that I would do differently if I started writing this book. Now, okay, maybe that's the question. That's the question, what would you do

differently? I mean, I do a lot of things differently, you know. I mean, I don't want to do a whole critique of the book, but I mean, I mean, you know, BLM had not happened. You know, that's a whole deeper conversation. I think the notion of unapologetic blackness doesn't really come into this discussion, because that's not where I was going. I

was going toward. Let's talk about fluidity, but unapologetic blackness is really important, and it feels good, and it is self affirming, and I think it's a great sort of example for others around us. You know, I mean, I would have to include more of an economic conversation, because it's very spiritual. And somebody is like, this is for middle class people. And like, Yeah. Somebody like, yeah. I mean, yeah, kind of there's not

an economic component to it. And you know, the rash of deaths, the Thrash of famous deaths that happened after publication, that alone would lead me to talking about this entirely differently. You mentioned because just full disclosure private I was in private school for a couple years. I'm from Philly. My mom was working like a bunch of jobs to put me through private school. It was one of the worst experiences of my life. The only reason why I didn't tell her is because I knew she was working

hard to send me through private school. But you mentioned private school a lot as one of the reasons why you're able, you were able to kind of get in that education and to understand how to engage community, like in communication. And you also mentioned the fact that you don't feel like you're masking. You understand that it's code switching and it's changing your

language, right? What do you think contributes to because I have to expect that, like, you've been around people who probably have felt the need to mask, or you've seen them doing that, and what do you think contributes to your experience being so different in terms of not having to do that, versus the possibility, and this is, of course, opining, but like, the possibility of other individuals not feeling comfortable doing that, and it's not solely about language for

them, because you're very open about like, No, I don't have to do that. But that's not, you know, like, what there's I can't speak to others experience in that way. I know that, you know, in high school and before I learned how to function in these all white rooms, right? At times. That was a painful experience, but I learned how to do it. I also learned that the white man's ice is not any colder. They don't know anything that we don't know. They're not

inherently smarter. So it wasn't, I mean, and I was educated around some really brilliant kids, but overall, like, white people are not smarter than us, like they don't have some inherent advantage intellectually or mentally over us, like they have more connections. But like, yeah,

that's what it is, you know. So I was, I came out of being around a ton of white people, mostly in high school, also in college and graduate school, but mostly the high school experience is more formative of like, not being all that impressed with them in general, like they're fine, but they like, they ain't smarter than me. They don't know something I don't know. Yeah, so, you know, I felt confident to go to war with them. As far as I'm trying to make it in media, you're trying

to make it in media too. Like, okay, let's see what happens, you know, and I feel confident of my skills. Like, I remember the first time the first thing we wrote in graduate school. I went to graduate school for creative writing Columbia, the first thing that we wrote, we read them in class. And then afterward, we came outside and there was like a circle of like six, five or six, probably six people who were, like, among the best in the class, just sort of talking.

And I never forget, somebody turned to somebody else and said, How long did you spend on your essay? Because, like, write a 500 word essay, how long did you spend on your essay? And then they said, how long they spent. And then they asked somebody else. And there was kind of like chatter, kind of like this group conversation happening, but there's also chatter. And then the third person, she turned to me and

said, How long did you spend? And the way she said it, I realized that whole line of questioning was to get to asking how long I spent, because she was like, because clearly and when. He asked me they all stopped talking because they were like, We want to know how long he spent, which that moment alone told me they all thought, Oh, his was the best. So, like, how long does it take to be the best in the room? And I don't I mean, the amount of time I spent relative to them is not

important. The point was that I saw right away that they all were like, holy shit, he's the best one in that group. And there was nothing, nothing that had ever occurred to me that I wouldn't be because, like, I've been around you guys my whole life. I know I can fucking like, now you know when it was science and math. Also, I'm like, I hate science and math. I just hate those fucking subjects in literature. I'm crushing y'all. So then we get to graduate school and we're

just doing writing. Oh, forget it. I can beat y'all at this. So do you think it's because you, instead of being in the silos of just solely being around people that look like you, you were able to actually have that experience, to know that the ice isn't colder. That was very helpful to me. To me, I also understand the self

esteem that can be nurtured in a very black experience. Yeah, you know, I remember the first time I went to the AUC and was on the yard around Spelman and Morehouse kids, and was like their level of self esteem is clearly different than ours. I mean, they are emanating a different light, and they are very deeply comfortable with themselves in ways that we over at Emory are not like this is so I saw that firsthand, and that's

just from being on the yard. I'm not right. I mean, if I went into the experience completely, it's like, amazing. So there that is a very valuable experience. My experience pwis learning their ice is not colder. They are not any smarter than us. There's no reason why I can't defeat them in any intellectual game. That was very helpful to me.

Okay, I like that. And I mean, it's what gravitated it's what caught my attention when it came to the book in the first place, your story about why you decided you know, to start off with the book, because that was the experience of the party and on, on, on campus. And that's, that's like, I saw the video, and I was like, Oh, that freaking sucks. Honestly, and honestly, even as a psychologist, I'm And it very

much. I get it's, I'm very Philly. I automatically go to, like, anger, which, you know, Dr Martin has a psychologist as well, but like, I was just like that just pissed me off. That just really just pissed me, like, what the ratify? Because, yeah, it was mortifying and hurtful. But to think deeply about it and have a very thoughtful response. And to, even now, to tell that story, and have so many people be like, you know,

bravo. Good for you, you know. I mean, I have people, black people who, if I looked at them, I would not think that they would that story would resonate for them, and they're like, that was great. I mean, your story went viral, like on campus, right? Like everybody was reading your I mean, oh, I mean, now, but yes, then, yes, it was viral. We didn't use that word then, but that community, yeah, but then this now, telling it now. And all these people were like, I had a similar experience. I had

a similar experience. Somebody said I wasn't I was really powerful.