Activism vs. Organizing: A Deep Dive The Weaponization of Data ft Dr. David Johns

or third grade. So here we go. Activism. Think alliteration. Activism primarily refers to actions that people can take, often their individual, individual and or isolated, but they're actions that people can take to raise awareness, build a campaign, or otherwise invite people into acknowledging a particular injustice or opportunity or problem, however you want to frame it, I think that we benefit by using asset

based ranks. So let's name things as opportunities. They're often issue oriented, and can take various forms as we're having this conversation. Brother by Rustin, the chief organizer and architect of the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom is over my shoulder, and he introduced to us a lot of these tactics, which includes protest. A lot of people now use digital media as a tool to engage in activism, writing letters or op eds or video op eds. Boycotts are direct action.

All of those things fall under activism. Organize can use those tactics, but it's really about building a structure movement

that includes a group of individuals. Co conspirator would be a good word that comes up here, but I'm challenging myself because we just published an episode of my podcast teach the babies with Dr Chris Emden, and he challenged me to think about not using words that are sometimes perceived as dark or nefarious to talk about our work, but but the definition of like CO conspires or the root work, the root essence of it really refers to people who are committed to a particular

action. Organizing tends to be more process oriented and relational. So again, it involves working with people, often over a defined period of time or prolonged period of time, and it includes grassroots efforts that are like community meetings, those might be digital or in person, thinking about how

we organize now training. A lot of the work of nbjc includes organizing in this way, training to build compassion and to build capacity so that people can engage elected and appointed leaders or challenge people who are hearing misinformation and disinformation and acting upon it, including by expressing rage. And the goal there is really to build people's capacity so that they can engage in this work of addressing

systemic root causes. So again, activism is typically more immediate, focusing on raising awareness, are pushing for change around a specific issue, while organizing is a systemic approach to building community strength and capacity to enact long term social change. If I were teaching kindergarten, I would say, say, to say it like this to my babies, right? So activism is like shouting out a lot about something important that you really care about. So our voices are important.

They're one of the ways that we communicate our dreams and desires for changes that enable us to thrive. So imagine seeing one of your friends being mistreated at school. You might decide to tell everyone what's happened, get a big group of friends to hold signs raising awareness of that injustice that is activism. So people who protest or raise awareness about

issues like bullying or climate change are activists. On the other hand, organizing is becoming a captain or a leader of an organization where your goal is to bring people together to make lasting change. So it's not just about that shouting or raising awareness for the day, but it's about creating a plan to help your group or your team work together over time toward a shared goal, right? So if the goal is to ensure that the school, our community, our environment, is one that is safe

and supportive and welcoming of everyone. Then you and your friends can sit down and talk about what changes you want to see. You can develop a plan. You can have meetings with your classmates and other educators. You can make protests. Protests. You can make posters. You can also engage your protest to explain your ideas and let everyone know what they can do

to be a part of the solution. And so it's important to get people's attention, but then thinking about a strategy for inviting people into problem solving so that the solution is sustained over time, requires organizing. Does that makes sense. Hey, Dr. Raquel Martin: everyone, just a reminder that mind, your mental is not just a podcast. It is also a amazing community. If I do say so myself, it's phenomenal. I mean, you get more

access to me. What more could you want in this life? So if you want to join the community, if you're not already on the community, go to my social media. My social media is the same Raquel Martin, PhD, and DM me the word community, so you can get details on joining this amazing, flipping community. You get more access to me. Y'all like, I'm a delight. All right. All right. Hope to see you there. That makes perfect sense.

And I think when I think of the report that you sent over the ring the alarm, the the crisis of black youth suicide in America, and the fact that so many people don't realize that suicide is the second leading cause of death for youth, ages 10 to 19, suicide. And it stated that suicide rates among black

youth rise significantly. Rose significant from 2007 2017 I remember reading a research study from the CDC like two or three years ago, and it mentioned that suicide rates had decreased, yeah, for Americans. And I remember doing a post on it, because I was just like, Oh, that's not possibly true. You know, I'm still practicing I might like, the suicide rates

haven't decreased. So then when I read the report, when you look at the data versus like, different races and ethnicity, of course, when you disaggregate the data, it was Dr. Raquel Martin: suicide rate for black youth was actually steadily increasing, of course, and I used it as a teaching, a teaching point for my students. Right about the fact that like you can data is just data. That's why, when people are like numbers, don't lie. They sure do. I don't know why people say

that. I always say data is data is just data. But if we if we were zoomed out, we would have thought, oh, suicide rates for Americans is decreased. So that clearly means black Americans too. And when we zoomed in, it's like it's been steadily increasing. I think it's so important because we're in the social media age where people will say, research, research, research, and I'll be like, where's the citation? Because there's no way for me to know what you're saying is actually

what came out, right, right? And it's so important specifically with this report, in all reports, because, like, there's still a myth that black people do not commit suicide. And not only are they committing suicide, the numbers have not

they haven't even stabilized. It's steadily increasing. So if you have to think about this in terms of the the realm of like activism as well as like organizing, where do you think we need to what are examples of things that say individuals who are listening, that they can do on the activism side and on the organizing side to help out with this in particular, this being the crisis, the mental health crisis facing our community generally, and black youth more specifically.

Yeah, I appreciate the question. So let me back up first and name something I struggle with, which is that a lot of the data that we have access to was collected before COVID, the most recent pandemic sponsored by the novel Coronavirus. And I say that because, as a sociologist, also as a researcher like you, I know that life markers are important, and we in the United States tell. Allow children to organize their lives around key moments, including graduations and milestone markers like that, or

prom, being able to go to college. And if you're incredibly privileged, live on campus in a community and for a

generation of children that was ripped from them, right? I still talk to parents who have children who have had developmental delays because they were denied opportunities to be in community with other children and practice the kinds of skills that children are typically able to learn in early care and education settings that they were prohibited from accessing because of not just the novel Coronavirus, but the

decisions that elected and appointed leaders made. I'm thinking explicitly about the failures made by Donald John Trump, who was occupying the Oval Office at that point in

time. That's not the point. The point is that we should assume that any data around the ways in which children are ringing the alarm, around the challenges they face and the needs that they have, including around mental health, are under reported, one if only because of the ways in which data is collected and the justifiable mistrust that most people, in particular, black people, should continue to have. But two, because we're also not taking advantage of tools like

intersectionality to ask kids more thoughtful questions. I after occupying the position of being appointed by President Barack Hussein Obama, his fabulous wife, Bucha Levine Robinson Obama, Sasha Malia, Grandma Robinson rested heaven the dogs, Sonny and Beau to lead the White House Initiative on Educational access for African Americans. After that was no

longer an option. I went back to school to earn a PhD, in part because the largest data sets that are used to inform and fund public education throughout this country, do not contemplate children as whole beings who might at some point not only declare a sexual orientation, gender identity or expression that may or may not fall under the Liga big A tiga, LGBTQIA plus umbrella, but more often, it's the case that while they're developing, while they're they are literally maturing in

schools that they're forced to go to by law, often by decisions that their parents and legislators make, like that constrain the choices that they may or may not have. It's often children who are not performing expectations of gender that are marked and stigmatized, that are doubly affected by stigma and violence and discrimination, and offered up to adults who the

data shows don't do a damn thing about it. This is our reality, I would offer an asterisk again, acknowledging that you and I are having this conversation on the precipice of one of the most

consequential elections in my lifetime. This is also acknowledging that since Donald John Trump proclaimed his intentions to run for the presidency coming down that gold elevator, there have been reports of students and educators reporting increases in violence and hostile climates and the kind of kinds of experiences that Increase suicidal ideation and completion, and I just posted a video about data that was collected to highlight the

correlation between the increase in legislation targeting trans children. The last legislative cycle was one of the deadliest. I'll come back to deadliest. It was one of the most dangerously prolific with regard to anti LGBTQ legislation, at or near 600 depending on how you count, the vast majority of those bills

targeting students, trans students, in particular. There's now data that shows that this increase in legislative targeting that anim that is animated by folks like mark the lieutenant governor of North Carolina, the black man who stood in the pulpit of a black church and called LGBTQ kids filth, only later for us to find out that he is on Beyonce internet, cheating on his wife, doing all kinds of things that just the 69 god, look it up, if you don't know what I'm talking

about, but there's Now a data that affirms the increase in this legislative terrorism is correlated with an increase in suicidality and completion, suicidal ideation and completion. And no one should be surprised if you live in a in a state like Florida or Texas or Virginia or you. Uh, insert your state here where people are passing laws that prohibit you from accessing life saving and affirming care, criminalize your parents or educators who are creating environments that are

safe and supportive for you to learn and grow in. The results of that is genocide, and they know it, and so I hope that is an appropriate frame for all of us to look through, no matter how you enter this conversation or your relationship to children, regardless of how they identified, or the systems that they're forced to move through. And I hope it's helpful in answering the question I heard at the beginning, which was like, What can people do who are interested in being activists?

The first is to educate yourself. There were a number of song references that came to mind, but it's to increase your competence. It is to to do what I imagine those who are your listeners and followers and people who support and engage with your work are naturally inclined to do, but it's to

become better educated so you understand what's happening. It is to do the opposite of what the failed history teacher turned governor of Florida, Ronald Deon DeSantis, wants us all to do, and is to work woke it is to celebrate the tradition of black feminist and and always understand how the matrix of domination is at play, the signs, systems and symbols that allow white supremacy To be omnipresent yet hyper invisible, knowing all of this is the first foundational step to doing

anything. And Dr Martin, here's why this is important. I very much appreciate you. Posted a video you and I exchanged messages about this some time ago that named this. Was it?

Hypocrisy is not quite it's someone that's coming to me in this moment with the hypocrisy of like wanting, expecting, needing, uh, black men to be emotive, to acknowledge that we have emotions, and to name them and share them, but then calling us sassy when we do so regardless of our sexual orientation or gender expression. Dr. Raquel Martin: Yeah, I told my students that. And I actually, I recorded myself doing a lecture over it, because these girl students in my class, it was, like in a black

experience. They was getting on this dude, and they stay, like, messing with him. So he popped back. Good one too. Of course it was. And they said, oh, oh, he's sassy. I said, What? Right? I said, Why is he sassy? I said, y'all been on him. Now, mind you, this is towards end of the semester. I'll never forget. I was like, Y'all, we've been having class for like 10 weeks, man, like he really just be, yeah, and he's sassy. And I was

like, and I recorded it, I gotta find the lecture too. Because I was like, you know, you'll say you want men to share stuff, share emotions, but you really, what you really mean is tell me how much you like me and be very specific about they like or tell me your emotions. And then if you share, it's like, no, I didn't mean that one. I'm in all the pleasant ones, right? And

it's just this, you know, like, it's, I have two, two boys. And it's funny because whenever I post something specifically about black men, Dr Johns, I always get, like, a whole thing about saying that, like, what about black women before? And I'm just like, I said, you don't live your life as a black woman, and that your work is it rooted in supporting all black people, regardless of how we identify, right? Exactly. Dr. Raquel Martin: And I always say that anytime you hear me

talk, I say he she day, what's best for black people? What's the best for black women is best for the black women is best for the black community. Black men best for black community. Non binary, black folk is best for black community because it's community. It's the both and but when people do that, and I'll just be like, are you serious that reacting slash, that tactic is one of the easiest ways to do the master's work. It is one of the ways to

be a tool of white supremacy. And I bring this up because there's a video I'm going to share with you today that someone sent to me. I very much appreciate the person who sent it to me, and it's a brother who is similarly occupying this position where he doesn't have to be accountable for his ignorance. And the nigga is loud and wrong and is essentially

saying, you know, black men get murdered. We get lynched for the way that we look, and gay niggas, don't it ain't never been no gay man who and I'm like, okay, so aside from the fact that, like, there's an actual hate crime named after James Byrd Jr, a black man who was lynched because he is a black man who was queer, it's part of the fact that there's a documentary about Ed Bucha, white man who terrorized and murdered black queer sex workers in Los Angeles in the last five

years, like in spite of the fact that, like this is a historical truth, you get to claim ignorance in a way that allows you to avoid having to do the work of freeing your mind and engaging in white supremacy rehab, to appreciate that none of us escapes the trauma associated with whiteness, white supremacy and the Coronavirus that comes with all of them. And so I'm spending a lot of. Time here, because it is incredibly

important for all of us to do the self work. A doctor mentor mine, Doctor Yolanda Sid Ruiz would say the archeology of self to be able to have a starting point to then do more. I said a lot there, so maybe let me pause and let that breathe. Dr. Raquel Martin: Yeah, because how you did say a lot, there's when you mentioned the aspect of never having the data accurate when it comes to suicidal behaviors. I also, and working in this realm as a psychologist, I always think that the data is

never going to be right. One, because of the mistrust aspect of it. But two, I don't even think we identify the behaviors Right. Like, if I have a patient and they're exhibiting like, significantly risky behavior, but they're not saying they want to die. They can't see a future for themselves, but they're not saying they want to die. They're using substances every single second of the day, but they're not saying they want to die, dealing with weapons every single second, but they're not

saying they want to die. Have never even thought about themselves at the age of 20, but they're not saying they want to die. We're talking about like, ideation. I always feel like, you know the if we expand the language to like, do they want to live right? Like, engaging in these behaviors where you can see yourself in the future using Substance after like, all these risky behaviors. And it's not that they don't see it as like. Not want to die. They see it as like. I mean, what else do I

have but this? And I and I've, oh, I've always seen that as like that, to me, that's ideation. Like, if you can't, if you have that kind of vacant esteem, you can't see yourself in the future to the point where you're taking risk after risk after risk, and don't even think twice about it. I feel like the data of suicidality is never going to be accurate because people don't even expand it to that language, and that's more qualitative data. Like, that's gonna be like, You got to talk

to them. It's not a search. You know, I like focus groups and interviews and honoring the narratives of the people who never got to talk in the first place. Like, I'm all for that. But I, when I was talking about that, I was telling my students and tell people, like, the data is never going to be fully accurate, but it's also like, you know someone who's like that, you know somebody who's like that, right? Well, some of this is about the phrase you're using,

sitting with me. That is sitting with me is the data is never going to be accurate. There's a part of me, like, the visceral thing that is is bubbling up for me is, like, what does that even mean? Right? Like, to your earlier intervention, data is but a tool. Anybody who's taken statistics knows that it is about how you leverage tools to manipulate information that you have access to, whether that is using numbers quantitatively or using qualitative tools like focus groups or narrative data

collection. That's one next paragraph, I know, as you know, that data is often used as a tool to protect and further enshrine white supremacy, which is why they don't want us to fucking understand how to use the tool to dismantle the

master's house. And the danger in the space that you and I occupies, that our ability to use data can is often the thing that then is weaponized against us when engaged in conversation with people who are committed to ignorance in the purest form of the of the term simply them not knowing that which they do not

know. Next paragraph, I think it is important for all black people who love black people, people who care about, appreciate want to continue to enjoy the privileges that are afforded to most people in our very young and very fragile democracy, to simply be more aware of how whiteness as a construct and tools of white supremacy, including language, are used to divide and conquer us. Two quick examples, I when teaching would often ask my students to to name all of the

ways in which you can refer to a grown boy. And they would spend some time ruminating on it then, and most, most often, somebody would yell out, or they would come to mister as the the construct, okay, run that for a grown girl. There are at least three ways to do that. One miss, M, I, S, S, M, S, and then Mrs. Mrs. Each of those terms aren't simply synonyms that don't have

a meaning. They each have differing levels of privilege and access, economically, socially, emotionally, politically, financially, all bound up in a European understanding of what it means to not only be a girl who gets to become a woman, but what woman means in relationship to a cisgender heterosexual man in a marriage that is recognized by

the state. That's why people should that's white supremacy at work right before that, if we think about some bufu solme who reminds us in chapter 13 of their book, The spirit of

intimacy in my village in West Africa. The words lesbian and gay did not exist, but the word gatekeeper did, and gatekeepers hold this space between the village and our ancestors, if we were, if we engage in white supremacy rehab, and remember that there are, there are civilizations now where they don't have gender pronouns, where this he, she, they all the stuff that like radical right wing politicians are using to try and motivate voters in terms of scare tactics around trans

people, fear mongering, kind of transphobia that that gets Serena Williams, and I can't think of the boxers name of this moment, but the boxer that hit the white woman so hard she called her a man, and like all all of these things are by design. And if we engage in white supremacy rehab and remember and reclaim ways of being before white supremacy, it's easier for us to engage with each other without the

language getting in the way. Similarly, to go back to the example that I offered up, which, which takes us back to where we were in terms of the challenges, and not just youth, but black, LGBTQIA, plus youth faces and people appreciate that, like my africanness is queer in America where whiteness is centered as the the pejorative position of power, Like us being black is queer, just as my sexual orientation, being same gender, loving is queer. Those things are queer.

We are queer. You as a woman is queer. In a society that centers men, it is the case that, because of how language works, people use queerness, which analogically means that which is not in a position of pejorative power to refer to those of us who are sexual minorities, but all of us are queer, all of us

are minoritized. And if we start from that premise, it's easier to not only, I would argue, and my research has shown, it's easier to not only make sense of shared oppression, but it's also easier for us to understand organizing opportunities to work together to address the root causes of systemic and sustained

oppression, regardless of how it manifests. What Dr. Raquel Martin: would you say are the the tools to start with, to challenge that to combat that aspect of maybe in the language, maybe in behaviors like how, what would you say was the first place to start simply, when it comes to combating this aspect of supremacy that is embedded in everything. And you can see it coming out in language. You can see it coming out of the way we engage with each other, the divisiveness and social media.

And it very much, is a tool, right? Like, if, if you ever want to know you know why somebody wants to silence or divide you, you just have to think about who benefits from the lack of community within that group. Right? Like, who benefits from that? What would you say is a recommendation or multiple where do you start? Because it's everywhere. It's embedded, like you mentioned, the systemic. Where do you start? If you can recognize it, say you can recognize it, but

you, you're like, I see this. I see the fact that like, I automatically default to this. I see the fact that like, I'm trying, I just don't know where to start. Yeah, three things. One, I hope everyone hears my heart and everything I'm arguing, which is to say I appreciate you and recognize you would support you wherever you are, no matter how you enter the arena. By the arena. I'm referencing Teddy Roosevelt speech about those of us who

choose to do the work, whatever that looks like for you. That's one two is I want to remind and affirm for everyone who's interested in doing more work that you should not do this alone. This, again, is why organizing is relational. There are organizations like in BJC, the organization I have the

pleasure of quarterbacking. We are 21 year old civil rights organization that is at the intersections of racial equity and LGBTQIA plus equality, which are often still siloed in spite of increases in representational leadership, and so I want people to be aware of organizations that have always existed to help us in this regard, whether they show up in the form of grios or academics or educators, folks like yourself, folks who write books and who manage and run programs to help us make these

critical connections, or they show up in the form of organizations like nbjc, for example, tools for activists that have been helpful. So I'm stepping back from the specific space we were just dwelling in around white supremacy and how it shows up in language and. And complicates our ability to show up for ourselves and others, to step back and just talk about tools generally. Let me know if that's not helpful, or where you want me to go or grow. But tools for activist organizers include

developing clear visions and goals, right? So starting with like a self investigation of what you are interested in doing and desiring to know more is an important and clear goal. Right? It's the pray prayer, prayer for the ancestors to make clear to you all of that which you do not know in a way in which you can begin to digest and appreciate it and address it as so that's

one. The second is to build relationships. Again, organizing as relational, being in community with people who are who have different experiences that you do enables you to do this work and challenge yourself to grow beyond the limitations of your own individual experience and schooling and the shaping that happens ecologically based on how you

come into this world and who you come into it. Through this is an acknowledgement that my favorite First Lady, Michelle Obama, Robinson Obama, would often say that in our country, it is still the reality that you can predict the child's life outcomes by and large, based on code, genetic code and ZIP Code tell me who a child was born to, phenotypically, and a couple of other demographic factors that often show up in what zip code they were born into, and we can predict most of their life

outcomes, or at least their trajectories, based on data, right? And so being in community with folks who can help sharpen and challenge and grow and support you and whatever your goal is, is an important tool. Assessing what you This is to supplement both of those things, assessing what you need, what you have, and who can help you fill the gaps between the two of those things so you can grow is incredibly important, right? A needs assessment, regardless of what your organizing goals are,

is foundationally important. Recruiting people to support you in your campaign, regardless of what your goal is, whether it is to grow as an individual or to address a systemic problem connected to white supremacy is another important tool. White supremacy has us lying to ourselves, thinking that we can be successful alone. That is a lie from the pedo white supremacy Hill. What most African folks know is that we grow further, faster to what gather. So recruiting people to

support you in this work is incredibly important. That's why thinking about the experiences of Descendants of Africa and the work of Dr Joy DeGruy, acknowledging that we're not post anything, let alone racial trauma, it's important to not only take things to the altar and have spiritual and ancestral counsel, but to have a counselor like you who certified and trained and can provide resources and tools, And to have a good group of friends who can counsel you, whether it's

playing spades or engaging in medicinal forms of of getting through right of being able to experience joy and dance and move, for those of us who have the ability to do so, like recruiting folks to support us holistically is one of the ways in which we not only do this work, but we remain well while doing so. And then I think the last one is to create structures

for action, right? So whether it is creating a group of folks that you can engage in meaningful and intimate discussion with about things you've learned, things that are challenging you and growth areas, whether you call it an accountability group, a counseling group or a group chat, creating that space is important, identifying benchmarks that enable you to demonstrate your growth, right? So this is me needing to name the goal should not be wanting

to become an ally of a community you might not be a part of. I'm talking to my CIS, heterosexual siblings, to be clear, I don't want to make assumptions. If a doctor guessed at your birth, gender at birth, that's what gender assignment is. It's a highly educated guess, if they guessed and how you identify at the point at which you are able to declare an identity. If it's consistent with that, guess your cis gender. It is not a slur. That's all it means. If you don't and the doctor made a

different assignment. Climate than what you identify with in your body. You are trans. That's what those terms mean. So I'm talking to my cis and heterosexual those of you who engage in strictly heterosexual sex, I'm doing air quotes for those who can't see whatever that means. I'm talking to you all in part because pop culture has people thinking that they

can why? True? Pause, drag race, download a Todd call album and quote some gay lingo, and now they're an ally, when the work is really about becoming an active accomplice, which requires you leveraging your privilege having some skin in the game and operating in ways that make you uncomfortable to create opportunities for others. And so the point I'm trying to make is to create structures for action that allow you to demonstrate to yourself and to others, to the extent that

that's helpful and not performative, your growth. Did that answer a question? Dr. Raquel Martin: Yeah, that answered my question. I think, I mean, it would be another conversation. I think one of the things that seems to be intimidating to a lot of people is, like, the data aspect of it, right? Like how to get involved

and what it looks like. I find that to be kind of the most fun part of it, because I get to engage with people instead of, like, being in my hovel looking at my laptop and going over it. But even when I talk to, like, colleagues and friends about it, who are, like in training, just that this is perception of just saying the word data. It just feels intimidating to some people, so

don't say data. Then let's acknowledge that. Let's This is a part of me that's like, let's meet some people who have good intentions where they are, and acknowledge that, like, words matter and to some extent, they're immutable. So let's not

call it data. Let's call it value, valuable experiences, or like, you know, whatever it is, right, like we, those of us who have the privilege of having access to jargon and tools that come with being a statistician or having a PhD who's demonstrated the ability to to design and defend a research study, can More frequently speak to people in language that they

understand. Again, Chris Emden, who talks a lot about hip hop as a language that educators can and should use, is entering this conversation with us, and so we can hold more and let me know if I can help you, friend, leader, do more to hold space for folks who are understandably intimidated because of the ways in which white supremacy shows up in schools, to take out the genius of it all until they can hold it for themselves.

Dr. Raquel Martin: Yeah, I actually said that to my patients, actually, when they're in the moment where they're like, they don't believe in themselves, and they're having a tough moment, and I said, Well, you know what? I'll hold that for you. Like, you know what it could be tough to always feel like you have to challenge and do the reframing. And it's like,

well, you you know exactly how you feel. I got it for you so you don't have to worry about you if you don't feel the energy to believe in yourself, I believe in you like I got that

for you. It's one of the most awesome aspects of me. I will always say being a it's an honor like to be able to be a trusted space for people, because they can, just as easily, especially given the stuff that a lot of people go through, just be like, I, I have no interest in trusting another person in life, and I will be like, you, right, you right, like, right and right. That's valid. That's, that's valid to be like, I've been done so many times. I do think it shouldn't be, but it's,

it's novel to believe, right? Like, when I'm dealing with people and they're like, Well, how do you just not so many scenarios that are exhausting and we're doing through the election and stuff like that, and I'm like, I don't know the future. I know it's kind of like what you said earlier, Dr Johns, you said Kamala said that when she was in a interview with Charlemagne. I'm sorry, yeah, I'm so sorry. Cut that out, my editor. I'm so sorry. Why?

Where are we about to go? I'm like, Oh, you about to get Dr. Raquel Martin: into it? No, it's just not just like, real talk, though, always Yeah. I was having a conversation with somebody about Charlemagne the other day, and they were telling me that I was being too tough on this person. And here's my thing, when they were coming from they had no idea that this person had an entire Mental Health Organization. Okay,

perfect. Yep, yeah. And I said, here's the thing, I think that it's understandable, and it's also natural for people to have these had this organization for quite some time, and they do things and meaningful ways, world, mental health, diet, Yep, exactly. Dr. Raquel Martin: And I think it's understandable that some people evolve past maybe what got them to where they are. Yeah, right. So the person who was having a conversation with me, and I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not saying about who they are

as, like a shock jock. I'm saying who they are as the head of a mental health organization, right? And they were like, Oh, I didn't know they owned that. They had that. And I was like, yeah, so what's your perception now about the way that narratives and conversation. Shins cause ripples within our

community, and I think that's what people don't get. I think that's what people don't want to because here's the thing, Google works like you provided information that's readily accessible for anybody, yeah, a computer in there on their person that they can access. So some of this is also about us naming when people are willfully ignorant, especially about things that they otherwise can can have access to. Dr. Raquel Martin: Yeah, because I just, yeah, what was I saying?

Like, certain stuff, there are certain things that I'm just like, I mean, everything is mental health and everything is well being. But, like, there's so many times I'll see people in this space and it's just like, yeah, I totally get mental health and well being is everything, and I want you to get that I do this, yeah, yeah. Like, this is legit what I do.

So you do sacred work, and I'm thankful for it. So Dr. Raquel Martin: I just be like, you know, let's, let's, let's be honest and be open about the fact that we can evolve past different things. The things that got us to a certain stage may not be the things that get us to the next one right name of the book. We Dr. Raquel Martin: evolve right? And some things are going to have to be left behind. I am like very much like an East Coast Philly person. My attitude was abhorrent coming up,

okay? Like, based on who's matrix, based on what and who's matrix, Dr. Raquel Martin: the world ain't, no, ain't a word alive that wouldn't say that. I wasn't. Are you sure? Are we sure about about this? Have we used Dr. Raquel Martin: to just be a butt for fun? Like, it used to just be fun to me. Okay, that's why, when people be like, I mean, you don't get it. I had this one student was just like, you know, Dr Martin, you're book smart, but I'm smart. And I'm like, yeah, oh, you beloved honey.

Dr. Raquel Martin: I said, Yeah, because I was born a doctor, I'm gonna let you have that. But, honey, no, like, that's why when people like, Oh, it's so hard for me not to, you know, pop off me too. Rage is simmering pretty easily. So like, if you get to be mad, I get to be mad. My turn me next experience, I appreciate your anger transmitted. I don't have to do it. I just let it out. I just pop off. It really, Dr. Raquel Martin: I guess it's right there. You think it, Oh,

you think it's fun to be an adult? Do you know the amazing insults that are in my head daily? But no, I have to be an adult. People in particular, because I pop off on adults. Mostly I have more patience. Oh Dr. Raquel Martin: yeah, no, I patient children. I always say, like, Y'all should be happy that you guys are. I see you guys as kids, because adults don't get the same grace. Grace, no kids, you're a kid. Yeah. Okay, well, let me explain it to you again.

Let me provide you with the resource. Let me make this a teacher moment, because everything's a teacher moment. I mean, that's why, that's why people don't really under that's why I try to tell people, like, the aspect of adultification, the reason why it's it's violence, right? Like the same way you mentioned, people don't realize that, like not teaching

our education or not doing these things, that's violence. If we can, we can objectively state that, telling teaching people about them, their history, normalizing their experience, making sure that their culture is not the elective the core curriculum. If we can say that that is something that builds whole, functioning, healthy, happy, developmentally appropriate, young children, then anything opposite than that

is violence, and it's intentional. Yeah, it's violence, right by Ronald Dion DeSantis and the Republican Party and Greg Abbott and yeah, uh huh, yeah, that's exactly right. Let's name a thing, a thing beloved, as IANA would say, yeah, Dr. Raquel Martin: it's a violence. So that's why, when I'm just like, you know, when you think of adultification, I want you to think about the way we treat children, and then think about it opposite wise, right? Think think about it that

way, like, oh, I don't want to be an adult. Why more responsibility? People don't explain stuff to me. I get expected to do more. I expected to know more. I get stuff explain less. Okay? And now think about the fact that, when does that start? As early as five. I believe. How do you think that contributes to the development of people and that? And it goes back to when you mentioned the the aspect of

black men being emotive, right? People will be like, I get all these conversations, how do we make more black clinicians available? I said, one, it's money. But two, I said, What if I told you it's not? It's not solely the aspect that we need more black clinicians? What if it's also the aspect that we shouldn't expect only black clinicians to be able to work with black people? That part, that part, what if we require the vast majority of non

black clinicians to be what culturally competent? That part? Because the math, by sheer mathematical permutations. Dr. Raquel Martin: There's less of us, right? And people just go straight to, well, let's do all this. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. But I see, I kind of feel like this is another way you putting it on us, always, when it's not solely about black clinicians, it's about why? Why are black clinicians? Because.

Missions, will it where? What? What about the aspect of everyone should be able to practice from an aspect of cultural humility. Everybody should have work, books and education. Yeah, that centers people that don't look like the everyone should yeah and yeah. It just, I just always, I'm always, just like a people. I just always be like, that's just, you just put another thing on us. It's like imposter syndrome. I meet many black people that have imposter

syndrome. I met a lot of black people who have a justified reaction to an oppressive environment, though, come on framing, yep. Why Dr. Raquel Martin: would you feel like you belong when they're making why would you not feel like an imposter for the place that they tells you that they reject you over you to feel that very way? Yep. That's Dr. Raquel Martin: why I'm like imposter syndrome. Every single time I say that, like, you know, I've never met a person, a black

person, who's had imposter syndrome. I've seen people who have a justified reaction to environment that's making them feel like they don't belong, yeah. Why would they feel like they belong when you're selling them that they don't? I love that. Yep. And it sounds crazy. They're like, What do you mean?

No. And plus, if you go back to the research of what imposter syndrome research was done based off of European American middle to upper class women who were struggling with grad school and feeling and they were like, they had they were second guessing themselves in grad school. And I'm like, right, how about that? So Dr. Raquel Martin: I'm like, okay, and yeah, they may, they may. But even that I'm like in that environment, just like you mentioned the queerness I love that they're queer in that

aspect of academia. That's exactly right. So you think they even think it's imposter syndrome. I'm like, or are you having a justified reaction to a to a to misogynistic environment that doesn't even want you to be there? That's right, not designed for you, not It's not designed for you. Dr. Raquel Martin: So half the time I'm like, I can't stand that term, like, because if you say imposter syndrome, a lot of times, people will go to, well, let's work on that within

yourself. But if you're saying a justified reaction to an oppressive environment shift, then the action is the environment. And I always feel like, I'm like, I don't like that word. I mean, like, I like, let's, let's focus on, why are they feeling like an imposter? Oh, well, you know, we have these policies that don't make them feel welcome. So what do we change? Do we change them or the policies? Do we ask them to leave? Yeah, it's a way to circumvent the accountability

around the structure, the root cause. Again, a way to avoid dealing with the roots. The root cause. Yep, Dr. Raquel Martin: you got a house phone? I do an office phone. Talk about adultification, a Dr. Raquel Martin: real one. Nah, nah. Let me see it. Shut up. No, don't. Oh, is that a Logitech? No, you don't. I got a cordless that. I got one with a cord too. Dr. Raquel Martin: Oh my god, you're such an adult. Oh my gosh, again, the consequences of what the pandemic. Shut

Dr. Raquel Martin: up a cordless phone and a corded one. I feel like such a little kid. Now, are you a grown girl? You're responsible for living, breathing humans. You are definitely an adult. Dr. Raquel Martin: Listen, but still, every time I see these posts that they'd be like, I can't believe we the real adults. I feel it because I can't believe I'm the adult in the room.

Listen, we my, my two of my dear friends, Brittany and Reggie, celebrated their fifth year wedding anniversary recently, and afterwards, the godparents got together just to continue, you know, the after party. And another godparent said to his brilliant, beautiful, her name is Georgie. She has a podcast, uh, that everybody should download. I think it's quiet time with Georgie. J, O, R, G, I, E, she's only Georgie out there, but Georgie. He was like, you know,

Georgie, do that thing. And we were like, did you become the uncle? Right? He was like, I did. And did so Dr. Raquel Martin: because it is cute, because, well, first of all, once again, I must tell my story, then we'll wrap up. But Russell wants to be my oldest. Wants to be a firefighter for

Halloween or whatever. And he had already told me he wanted to be a firefighter, but I as soon as he told me that, I was like, oh, no, we got to get rid of this, because he already has a firefighter costume in the house, because we do imaginative play. So if he is a firefighter, he we don't get to get a new costume. And by we, I mean me, like, why are you not centering Russell's desire to be a firefighter?

Dr. Raquel Martin: So as soon as, as soon as he said that, I was like, oh my god, let's just make sure you don't tell your dad, because as soon as he tells my husband, because so so they have they done that is going to be logical or rational, and very logical, very rational, very debut, very, oh Dr. Raquel Martin: my gosh, they have, they little talks every night. And when he came downstairs for this talk, okay, Dr. Raquel Martin: he said, Oh, well, Russell. Russell said he

wanted to be a firefighter. And I was like, Yeah, but he said, and that means he's gonna be gonna get a new costume. And I'm like. Like, Oh my gosh. I deserve to see him and cute stuff, a new outfit. Every year I see him in a firefighter costume. Why does that have to be for Halloween? Firefighter? Dr. Raquel Martin: I don't know. I see him in that costume, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, too. It's the 31st I want something different. That's not what he wants, and I deserve to get a

costume for you. You if you admire a costume that you get what you can even do a Beyonce and have costume changes, if that makes your heart flutter. You alive. You are. Let Russell be. Let Russell be the firefighter he want to be. Oh, I was. I was just like, we are, we are, we are. I appreciate this conversation because this is a through line between this quote that we have been quilting together and it's and I appreciate that we can have it on this level because of the

levity. But think about how often this dynamic shows up in the experiences of children, right? Dr Johns, Dr. Raquel Martin: I don't want it to be real. I just want to see him in something cute, and I deserve it. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something about Russell. Let me tell you something about Russell, that little boy has had me fighting for my life these past couple of months. Okay, so you know what all I want is to see you dressed up as something

cute. That'll just remind me again I receive everything you said, Dr Martin, with this is my right as a mom, you have said that you have been doing the work of being a parent to a child who did not ask to be born, and in exchange for doing said labor, you want to dress him up like he is a doll, a cute doll, not a actual person. I hear you. Dr. Raquel Martin: I really want. I was really hoping, yeah,

oh, I'm aware of that. I was hoping he wanted to be like something in a suit, you know, like I really was hoping. I am a grown adult. I pay lots of bills that I don't want to pay, in residences that I don't occupy or otherwise dwell I don't wear a suit. The day that I realized that the President that I worked for, Barack Hussein, Obama, didn't wear a suit to tie. You'd be fine find a picture of me in a suit and tie. You Dr. Raquel Martin: wouldn't say that if you saw our holiday

photos. He's just so cute. It's basically been 10 months since I've seen his little, cute face in a suit. Oh my gosh. And it was a it was like a velvet blue group chat, because I pray for little Russell's freedom. Dr. Raquel Martin: I just love seeing his little Oh my goodness. He was like, he got this, he got, like, this Nike outfit. My mom got it for him and for my youngest, the two year old. And I've been looking for weeks to find so we can match.

That's what this is about. Uh huh. Uh huh. Is Dr. Raquel Martin: there just, oh my goodness, I'm gonna let you live for a little bit. Oh Dr. Raquel Martin: my goodness. And, like, just so cute, just so we all just be in our little green Nike sweat suits. All of y'all can now be in your fire department, or you can expand it be emergency service providers in different iterations. Somebody can be EMS. I mean, there are lots of options. I'm here for Russell's imagination.

Dr. Raquel Martin: Is it imagine? Is it imagination? If you're wearing the same outfit that you wear on a random Wednesday, here's what I think about. And one of these things I miss is there. Where's the picture? I taught kindergarten and New York City on 100 and 10th Street and Broadway, and my babies were forced to play in a in an area that is no bigger than the office I'm standing in now, and one of the most expensive

districts in the country. And one of the things that I miss most is the in spite of the fact that my babies had the same physical confinement, the same tools, blocks, toys, every day, they found some new world to dream of and envelop and enroll everybody else In that one day, the same block could be a car that could be a rocket ship, that could be a computer, and that that space could transform to meet whatever they felt in that moment, that kind of magical ability to create worlds

as something that gets beaten out of us So absolutely, yes, his ability to and desire to dwell and dream and whatever world being a firefighter is connected to, I'm sure, exist in vivid Tech. Color, and my prayer for you sister is to be a dumber printed I Dr. Raquel Martin: don't want, I don't want no teaching moment. All I wanted to do is possibly see my son as a pumpkin, okay, because they're cute.

So you find another one costume outside of Holloway, because he's already made a decision, Dr. Raquel Martin: yeah, I'm gonna have to find a way to sneak it in somewhere, because as soon as I do, that, brand is gonna be like so we just buy costumes for Tuesdays now, yeah?

I mean, honestly, that's why he has the firefighter costume every day, every day, we perform drag, whether it is the drag of being a student, the drag of being a professional, the drag of being honey, we all perform just what drag you gonna do on today? So if you want to buy, listen, Barb, whatever. That's Dr. Raquel Martin: why we got the firefighter costume in the first place, because I'm like, we need some imaginative play. What are we going to be today? I just ran a look at it. I was

like, This is so cute. It wasn't random. Look at the ancestors conspiring for his success. Dr. Raquel Martin: You know what? Dr Johns, this may have to be your last time here. That's all right, as long as my brother gets the support, or my sibling gets the support that they need. Dr. Raquel Martin: I mean, honestly, as soon as soon as it was something that didn't require a purchase his he was gonna have his dad's 100% support as soon as he came

downstairs. I was like, Man, why you tell him that? Man, you already I thought we still had time. Already knew what was gonna happen, yeah, as soon as they be having a little conversation again. And here's what's what is not lost on me. I'm just gonna name it and plant that seed with water. Later is that this is we could trace this conversation and layer on top of it a transparency for how similar it is to parents who

struggle with I'm not saying you're their friend. I'm just saying this is what is not lost on me struggle with their children's pronouns or gender expression or identity in so many forms? Dr. Raquel Martin: Yeah, I think so. Because I when I when I've had to work with parents on that the biggest thing that we had to divorce them from is this perception of like and everyone's not like this like everyone has their reasoning

behind in their minds, why they can't, why they did. They have this stronghold on them, why their children don't belong to you, why they refuse to let the dreams that they have dreamt for themselves through their children die, Dr. Raquel Martin: yeah, because that's the thing, and it's like your children don't belong to you. I also feel like people really confuse legacy with lineage, and like your legacy is what you contribute to this world, but not as a person,

right? Like my legacy is going to be, hopefully, the way I leave critical thinking skills in my students. My legacy is going to be, if I one day write a book, my lineage is my children. That's just genetics, right? But, but they're not my legacy. My legacy is my body of work. And I think a lot of times, people will confuse legacy with lineage and just be

like, well, they're my legacy. That's, that's not true. Like you're, yeah, I totally get you have all of these, these visions and thoughts and all of that when they're when they're in your womb. But is it not just magical that they can come out and, like, crash every single one of those, and then you get a whole new person who get, you know, like, it's an honor to see them from the beginning, watching my child learn.

Literally had to learn how to do the peace sign, and the fact that, like, it's a new thing for him, and he puts it up in every single picture. And I got to watch him learn and do too, and he puts it in every picture. And it's so cute, because I'll be like, picture, he'd be like, yep. But like, people will see it as like, oh, you know, it's my vision. I see it as like, isn't it magical that, like, the even the dreams that you have

for that person, you could, you could never you. It was like, that was like, the baseline, they're coming out and they're like, shattering this. But people don't see it that way. Like, yeah, I totally get it. I'm a parent. I have perceptions of what parents it was going to be like, and then, you know

what? Let's dance in the confetti of them crashing and burning that and being like, no, what if I told you it's 10 times better than that, Mom, you're, you're, you couldn't even dream of how flipping amazing I am, you know, like, I just see it's more like, I get it when I'm working with parents and, you know, I'm like, I get it. But like, what if I told you? Like, that's like, some people say, like, my my pre game is your

workout. What if I told you, like, the way your perception of what you thought your child was gonna be, that's like, the baseline, like, that's like, the that's like, a warm up. You couldn't even you, there's no way you could possibly dream how amazing they are, because the limit doesn't exist. You don't even, you can't dream that way. You only have to see it so I get it. But like, you know, yes, I just wanted to talk about, don't you talk if you say anything, if you say anything,

no, I'm just gonna find that. Jeff Johnson said this some time ago in a very different context. But like, this should be the dream of all parents. Which is that your child's desires are beyond your wildest comprehension. Rather, how boring is it for our children to want to do and be the things that make sense to us? Our children challenging

convention should excite us. At a minimum, it should compel us to interrogate the visceral response we often have, which is to squelch, quiet down or dissuade children, in particular, from things that don't make sense to us. I think Dr. Raquel Martin: interrogate is the perfect word, and I'm gonna say this, and I will let you go after you go after you

tell everybody where to find you. I was talking to my husband the other day, and I was like, you know, I think that when you get to a space where people don't read right, and especially read our history, I think it's very easy for people to forget how far we've technically come, yeah, like, I really, really do. Like, I think one of the reasons, like, the why people won't interrogate or why people, like, make an assumption in this

aspect of someone belonging to you. I mean, I know it sounds very basic, but I just think people do not realize how far we've come. Like, I think there it's it's lost on you. Like, people who don't want to vote, and I'm just like, especially, you know, black people. Have you read megar and Merley people who it just in like, who are talking about, like, mental health and don't understand the connection between incarceration and mental health? Have you read Antonia Hilton's book, people who don't

understand why the school system. But often the answer is no, right? The often the answer is no. And I think, I mean, like, I know I'm a huge nerd, but even if they had so what Right? Like, the way that, the way the white supremacy is set up, don't nobody, most people don't have the luxury of one reading or accessing those books. Think about that. Literacy rates that lead to a lot of the mental health outcomes that we've been talking about, regardless of identification or orientation.

But even if people did the way that like trauma and prolonged trauma and poverty and inherited trauma, the way that all of that is set up, people don't often have the luxury of making rational, otherwise rational and informed choices that enable them to account for the information they might have

encountered at some point. So even when we assume people have read those books that that they have the ability to remember and then apply the knowledge in real time, given all that we are faced with on any given day, let alone in this moment, in our very young, very fragile geopolitical environment or history, is by design. Dr. Raquel Martin: Oh yeah, it's by design. I was on live today, and somebody said, can you speak to black people, not supporting

Black people? And I said, I think that's a very big generalization. But I also think it's important to realize that like as someone who sees it from myself as a person, as well as working with people from so many different walks of life, and having that able to do that, people are really just trying to survive. Like, you're you're making an assumption that, like, Oh, they're being malicious, but like, people are really just

trying to get through the day. And I think by leading with this whole car thought process of not thinking it's malicious, like, oh, they didn't support you. You, I do. Do you think that that was their intent, or do you think they're just trying to survive. Do you think that they, they, they, I just, I just don't think people really realize that, like, you know, like, it's, yeah, people are struggling so much malicious intent is not, at least from us. I don't see it like that as

often I see it as like, Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to step on your foot. I didn't even see you there. I'm in a daze because I'm just trying to make it to 5pm right? And and I often land in this space, probably see all of the above, which is often there's a distinction without a difference, when people are processing in a real time. I don't give a about what you intended. What I know in this moment is that you stepped on my toe and now my foot hurts right

like I don't care about the intention. What I know is that the outcome of this policy means that my trans child and I cannot leave our home because you not have incentivized our neighbors reporting on us in ways that I might be put in a prison, Dr. Raquel Martin: yeah, intent at impact are in no way the same, no. And I see a lot of people get away with certain things, with saying that that's not their intent. And I was

like, well, intent is a you thing, right? Because you have to, you have to take the time to figure out what's what, what, why you're you know you, your perception is like, say you stepped on my foot, right? I. Like, you have to worry what think about like, why are you walking around with your hands over your eyes? The intent is a thing. You got to process yourself, but we got to deal with the impact of this, right?

Your intent is an internal process. And if you have someone who wants to call you in and take all that fine, that doesn't mean you can't do it, but we have to deal with the harm. We have to deal with the impact. You know, like you. We now we both in it, but that intent thing that's something you gotta figure out for yourself, buddy. You gotta take the time to think about why you walking down the middle of the street with your eyes closed. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta talk to your

God about why you think that's appropriate behavior. But when you you gonna talk to me about the fact that I just got some new j's and you stepped on you Sean, like, we won't, like, you know, like, like But Doctor David Johns, who sat here and turned my selfish moment into a teachable one, which nobody wants that. Okay? Nobody, nobody wants that. No one wants to learn all the community to get us what we know, what we want. But My people will be I

Dr. Raquel Martin: didn't, not another one. Don't listen. I've met my limit. Can we? We'll see I've written that learning Dr. Raquel Martin: all day. Tell everybody where they can find you, as well as the amazing organization that you are doing all these amazing things with and for and through and all that. Yeah, I appreciate everyone for the gift of their time and attention. We can continue this at MySpace. I look forward to us

doing this on the teach the babies podcast with me. Dr David Johns, I'm at Dr David Johns across most platforms and nbjc organization, I'm honored to quarterback as a chief rustinette by Rustin, to be more precise, can be found@nbjc.org across platforms, at nbjc on the move, and my hope is that we can be a resource to you. And if there's something you need but don't see that, you will let me know, so we can fill that gap and support you in your advocacy organizing growth.

Dr. Raquel Martin: Well, y'all heard it here first. Thank you so much. What days do you drop new episodes? So classes in session every Tuesday. That's where we drop the episodes. And because I needed a container for some of this election conversation, we have office hours which launch on Thursday, so you can Okay. Bonus, right? That's twice a week for a couple of weeks, at least through the upcoming presidential election. Dr. Raquel Martin: All right, so you get double that's what's up.

So y'all can catch up on all these, these back episodes, and then you can be ready for Thursday episodes too. That's what's up. How you find the time? I have no idea, but Okay, okay, the construct I try is a construct. Time is a construct. Tools I talked about as an advocate and organizer to get it all done like Beyonce. Dr. Raquel Martin: Like Beyonce. Oh, I love her. But okay, okay, everybody, have a fantastic rest of your week.