The Truth About HPV Your Doctor Isn’t Telling You

Women hear every day, even from their doctor's offices, they're hearing this myth that it's not possible to get rid of HPV. We didn't learn this in medical school, but I learned it from women, from my patients over decades. I see them clearing HPV to negative. over and over. And Neisha, I have patients who I helped over 15 years ago coming back to me and saying HPV is still negative. How many years does it have to be before we finally say?

Yes, it is possible to get rid of HPV because I see it's happening. Welcome to Metabolic Matters Podcast, where we embark on conversations with thought leaders, disruptors, change agents, and passionate souls. I'm your host, Dr. Naysha Winters. Diagnosed with terminal cancer at 19 years old, my journey led me to become an integrative oncology specialist and champion of metabolic healing. Together, we'll delve into what truly matters to our guests

and how you can metabolize that wisdom to transform your own metabolic health. Now let's meet today's guests. Welcome to Metabolic Matters, the podcast where we explore the connections between metabolism, resilience, and health creation. I'm your host, Dr. Naisha Winters. And today we are diving deep into a topic that too often lives in the shadows, cervical health and HPV. Joining me today is Dr. Donnie Wilson.

a colleague, friend, and naturopathic doctor, midwife, clinical nutritionist, and best-selling author, Boosh, as well as the creator of the Stress Recovery Protocol. For more than 25 years, Dr. Donnie has helped women transform their health, navigate stress, and reclaim their power through natural, evidence-informed care. She's here to challenge the myths around HPV and cervical cancer.

reveal what women aren't being told in their doctor's office, and show us how stress resilience is a cornerstone of both prevention and healing. Looking forward to this conversation today. Wow, Dr. Donnie, what an absolute joy. In fact, before we started recording, I've had a lot of Donnie sightings as of late and I'm loving them. I've gotten to be on your podcast recently.

You and I were at an amazing mastermind event together recently. You're here today. And in the last year, I think I have referred at least a dozen, you know, like patients, people out there in the world who've heard me speak to your website, as well as colleagues who are looking for people who specialize in the things that you specialize in.

It is just an absolute joy to get you here, to have a very important conversation, one that we kind of keep in the closet and it really needs to come out. So Donnie, thank you for being here. And please give everybody a little background of who you are. where you are and what you are famous for. Thank you so much. I feel so special and honored to be here with you, Naysha, and to be sharing with your audience. I'm also a naturopathic doctor like you.

And I'm also trained as a midwife. And so I specialize in women's health and have been for over 25 years. And specifically I... hone in on helping women with abnormal pap smears. So women who are dealing with, yes, also women who are dealing with low risk HPV that causes genital warts, but especially women who are

They're on this very difficult path of dealing with high-risk HPV and abnormal cells on the cervix or other areas of the body. And I specialize in helping them. It's sort of my personality. is that I want to help where I see that help is not being given and not being offered. And where as a naturopathic doctor, I know there's so much we can do to help.

those women to prevent cervical cancer and other HPV related cancer. And so I found that that's my purpose. And that's where I put a lot of my focus is how can we. reduce the rates of HPV-related cancer in women and men. I love, personally, I love that you brought both genders into the conversation because we used to really think of it only as a women's health issue, human papillomavirus affecting them.

But we've seen this explosion in understanding its impact in our male population, as well as impact beyond the cervix, which I will touch into here in a moment. And your approach deals with all of that. So I do want to start, like, why? do you think this topic is so taboo? Why is there so much silence and stigma around HPV, wherever it shows up in the body, around abnormal pat smears, and around... this diagnosis in general.

you know, around the world and especially in certain countries, because I'm helping women worldwide with this. And so I'm hearing from women from all different areas of the world, all different religions, all different backgrounds. No matter where women are in the world, there's a stigma about HPV, I think because of the connection with being transmitted by sexual contact. And so...

automatically because it's considered to be a sexually transmitted virus, high-risk HPV virus, already there's this stigma. And you can imagine, especially in countries where sexuality is stigmatized, it makes HPV even more stigmatized. In the United States, there's becoming more openness to sexuality for women and ability to talk about it.

But in some countries, it's still very difficult for women and certain generations. It's very difficult for women to talk about something that they contracted by. sexual activity, and especially Neisha, because there's been this myth, I consider it a myth, which is that HPV is mostly contracted by people who have numerous sexual partners.

And so it's this people automatically think, oh, if you have an abnormal pap or HPV, that means you have a numerous sexual partners and people have different judgments about that. However, what I see, you know, remember, I've seen tens of thousands of patients for over 25 years. And so I see the reality of the women who are reaching out to me and men, men also reach out to me for dealing with HPV.

And they don't all have numerous sexual partners. I can tell you that. It's not just about that. And so I think we need to break this stigma and say, wait a minute. What I tell women is I say, you're human. Humans have sex. That's just something humans do. You know, that's a common thing. It's a normal thing for humans to do. Part of life. Yeah.

80% of us are going to be exposed to high-risk HPV by age 50, no matter how many sexual partners we have. So if you're human, which I'm thinking if you're listening in, you are human. And if you're sexually active at some point in your life, which most all of us are, you're very likely to get exposed to high-risk HPV, even if you have one sexual partner.

And so I start there to say, let's break this stigma because the stigma is only hurting us. It's only caught. It breaks my heart. The number of women who are. being diagnosed with cervical cancer or other HPV-related cancer, and going to cancer treatment and even dying from cervical cancer without ever telling even their closest family members or partner.

about it and that to me it shouldn't be that way these women should not be dying from the cancer and afraid to tell their family members that that's what they're dealing with absolutely and i'm gonna I'm going to go out on a limb and I'm going to be a little vulnerable and transparent here because you're speaking a bit to my own story. And so...

It would still take several years beyond to understand what this was about. But at the age of 14, I was diagnosed with cervical dysplasia. And again, at 16, with cervical dysplasia. And both of these situations were pre... me being sexually active, you know, like consensually, I should say sexually active. It would not be until many years later when I was in medical school.

that I learned that there should have probably been people asking more questions because we didn't know about HPV and its relationship with cervical dysplasia and cervical cancer in the 1970s and 1980s to the degree that we know today. And so for me, for the listeners who some have followed some of my story, I had some significant childhood sexual abuse. And that was, I mean, talk about stigma, even saying this out loud to the whole world around me.

If I had told, you know, because I still didn't even know when I did start to become sexually active, I didn't, still didn't know, was not aware that HPV was part of that story. That story came later. when we had the knowledge base to understand and I had the testing to understand it. And then you can imagine the stigma around it, first of all, being the age that I was.

and being sexually traumatized, you know, were things that were not something you wanted to chat about. And so it's very interesting because I'm also on the other side of that, thanks to people like Dr. Donnie. the tools in our toolbox, especially as naturopathic doctors, I have been able to completely eradicate any signs and symptoms of this virus.

I want to speak very much because I also want to help people come out of the closet around this and have these conversations, especially since you and I are seeing literally an explosion of head and neck cancers, of cervical cancers and of rectal cancers. that are of HPV origin. And you and I are on a mission and vision to prevent it getting that far, but also to rip off the Band-Aid and say, there's something you could do about this.

long before it's big enough and loud enough to capture your attention so why don't we just kind of there it is it's on the table so let's talk about that you just said so beautifully that it's not just oh this is someone who has a lot of sexual partners This could have been as a result of sexual assault, of sexual abuse. This could have been a result of that.

one big love of your life that was unbeknownst to them were a carrier of this virus. This could have been a result of someone being exposed in a time of more promiscuity or... in multiple partners or sleeping with people with multiple partners. There's so many ways that it shows up. There's not one way, but the way you and I were talking, and this is where I want you to take us, is that the virus gets blamed.

But what you and I were talking about before the recording is that the environment in which the virus lands is really where the magic happens. And this is where Dr. Donnie is an absolute...

like icon in teaching and reversing this space. So can you speak a little bit about what I'm alluding to here for our listeners? And when I say this, a lot of times, even in my social media or online, I get a lot of criticism, Nisha, because it's not the standard way of looking at this virus, right? We're taught, even now.

then it's almost like a germ theory, right? You get exposed to high-risk HPV. And some people even think, oh, well, almost as if you deserve it. Like, oh, you were putting yourself in harm's way. um didn't have maybe didn't have protection maybe you did or didn't have a vaccine and you you know you then were exposed to this virus and that's why it's testing positive and

I'm showing up saying, wait a minute, wait a minute. We have to look at the numbers here. We have to look at the numbers. And that's what I've been doing for all these years. Because women are coming to me and saying, Dr. Blamey, how can you help me? So I'm going to say, let me figure this out. And what I see in the numbers is that, first of all, there are millions of people diagnosed with high-risk HPV every year.

Even just in the United States, millions of people are being diagnosed as testing positive for high-risk HPV, but not a million people are getting cancer. Yes. We have to go, wait a minute, it's not just about exposure. It's not even just about testing positive that causes cancer, right? We have to look at those numbers and say,

It's not just about exposure to the virus. It's not just about testing positive. There's something else that's happening in there that those percentage of women and men who are... diagnosed with cancer so the cancer like in the u.s the number of women diagnosed with cervical cancer per year is a little over 13 000 not millions Now, if you look worldwide, the number of women diagnosed with cervical cancer is about 600,000. But we're talking about a cancer that, in my experience, is preventable.

That means 600,000 women per year in the world could be preventing cervical cancer. But why is it not being prevented? Well, because everyone keeps looking at it as oh it's just because you were exposed oh it's and we get into this judgmental judgmental critical thing oh you know this person was putting themselves in harm's way but like you said it could be an exposure that you

you had no control over and it could have been it's a virus that 80 of us are exposed to so yeah it's not just about exposure it's not just if it was all about exposure the rates would be higher

So we have to say, what's really going on here? We also know from research, very clearly, numerous studies even report this, that all of the women who test positive for high-risk HPV, percent will fully clear the virus to negative within two years love it now what does that mean clearing but now when you and i were in nature having medical school a couple decades ago

We didn't have the type of testing available that we have now. We couldn't measure viral load and titers the way we can now. With high-risk HPV now, We can actually measure the virus and see, especially if you go to a really specific lab, they can tell you exactly how much HPV is present. So when we, when they can do that.

type of testing and they can see when it goes to zero. That's what it means when we say the virus has cleared, right? In a scientific, that's a scientific term. The virus has cleared. It means you're immune system which we do as humans have a built-in immune system that has the ability to clear high-risk HPV and it can clear the virus to negative zero and it can create a memory.

to protect us from HPV going forward. And that's well established in the research. However, your medical doctor, gynecologist, whoever's doing your pap smear, likely hasn't been trained that. They are not trained in medical school that the human immune system can clear HPV. Some of them have. And so sometimes you may go to the doctor and they might say, some women here, you're never going to clear this virus. It's going to be there forever.

again, breaks my heart because it just means the doctor hasn't read this research. Other practitioners will say, if they've read this research, they'll say, let's wait the two years and see if you're in the 90%. Who cleared the virus? But that's also not such a great thing for women because what does that mean? That means you're waiting around for two years to see if you're in the 90%. What if you're in the 10%?

And those women, those are the women who come to me and they're like, I've had this for more than two years and I must be in the 10% that didn't clear it. So if you're in the 10% that didn't clear it, what does that mean?

That's where you and I come in, Nisha, and we say, we're going to ask that question, why? We're going to say, if you're a human and your human immune system should be able to clear this virus. Why is it not clearing the virus? And I think that's the question that all practitioners should be asking. We should be at that point in this and be asking why. And when we start asking why.

why is this person's not in a critical way right this is not to be critical of this person this is to actually help the person and say there must be a reason why their system isn't protecting them and that's where my protocol begins. I love this. You have literally helped thousands, if not tens of thousands of women clear HPV naturally to that technical.

standard of care assessment of no measurable titers of the virus left in the body. What was the most surprising lesson you've learned from these journeys? Before we get into the what, what's been the most surprising lesson you've learned? along this along the way i've learned so much from these women and i'm so grateful to them because they came to me and trusted me to just and then just keep showing up with determination and and not willing to give up

and say there has to be a way we can solve this. One of the things that still I find is so, brings so much awe for me. and just mind-blowing for so many women, and even very hard for most practitioners to believe, but I know you're going to get it, is that it's related. to their stress and trauma exposure and while you mentioned that you had sexual trauma so people think oh it's because you were exposed to the virus

I'm still going to say that it wasn't just exposure to the virus. Studies show that when women have childhood abuse of any kind, let alone sexual abuse, trauma, and childhood, The rate of cervical cancer goes up. I think it's something, it's over 90% risk of cervical cancer from childhood abuse.

Well, and that resonates with like the ACE scores, right? The adverse childhood events, because we know with that you've actually rewired the neuroendocrine system, the neuroimmunology system. And so that makes sense. Like the folks exposed to those traumas at a younger age. are wired now to be more vulnerable to various viruses, various intoxicants. So I think that's really powerful that you brought that up because when I even look at my own life, it wasn't just a single...

you know, a traumatic event that exposed me to a virus. It was a collection of things. And on that ACE score, all 10 were present as well as just... the lack of nourishment and some other toxicities I was exposed to and a lot, a lot, a lot of stress in my life. And I just, I love that you're sharing this because I'm hoping people listening will take pause and take inventory and be.

gentle and compassionate with themselves because it wasn't their fault you know it wasn't their fault and and this is the places it might not have been their fault that they got it but they certainly are empowered to do something about it and this friend is where you are an absolute rock star. You link very explicitly stress to cervical health outcomes. And so this continues to be a big blind spot for people and even doctors.

How and why do you think we keep missing that connection? It's a good question. I mean, first of all, I think that most practitioners, including, you know, you're going to the gynecologist to get a pap smear and HPV test. Most women, that's how they find out, right? They don't. In the United States, they're still not testing men until they get cancer. The only way we're finding out about HPV right now is when women go for a pap, and sometimes now.

even instead of getting a pap, they're doing first the HPV test, by the way, because when we're seeing that 99% of cervical cancer is caused by HPV, they started flipping the guidelines. And so now when women go in, your doctor might even do an HPV test before doing a pap smear. And that's becoming the standard guidelines, especially between age 30 and 65. And I recommend it because to me.

I would rather you find out that you have high-risk HPV so then we can do something about it. I don't want women waiting two years to find out if cancer happens. Why would we do that? Why would we wait two years?

And take women through a bunch of procedures and the fear. Because just to find out that cancer is happening. But in the standard medical system, they're not trained in the fact that stress. And trauma is making women at higher risk. And they're not trained in how to help women with stress and trauma. And so there's a disconnect. Is it disconnect? And there's not even an understanding that they should be looking at that.

And so that's why it's happening. That's why it's getting missed. And even if, right, if we have stress and trauma, we're going to the therapist or psychologist or psychiatrist and they aren't trained in. So it's like you're talking to two different practitioners and they're never connecting it. But in the research now, we just mentioned.

Adverse childhood events and trauma from childhood, increasing risk of cervical cancer and other types of HPV related cancer. But it's also linked to adult trauma, including intimate partner violence. And what I refer to as narcissistic abuse in women who are in a relationship that's experiencing narcissistic abuse, whether it's a work relationship, a family relationship, a romantic relationship.

When there's that level of emotional and psychological abuse, my dude doesn't necessarily have to be a sexual abuse, right? But that trauma is being linked in the research to increase risk of. cervical dysplasia, not just because of partner exposure, but because of the trauma and stress. And what's happening is, because some people think, well, what's the connection? Why is that happening? Why is the stress leading to this increased risk?

Because of my expertise in stress and trauma, I'm able to connect those dots much more. You see one of my books, Muscular Stress Reset Your Health, over my shoulder. When we're under stress and trauma, We know that it disrupts our cortisol levels. Cortisol is our main stress hormone. Cortisol, when we're exposed to stress and trauma, cortisol can either go too high or too low.

It depends on the person and their genetics and their stress exposure and a lot of different variables. The thing is, is whether cortisol goes too high or too low, both scenarios impact the immune system's ability to protect us from... All infections, including HPV. So that alone, that alone is, that's not hard to draw those connections, right? Like trauma, cortisol, immune system.

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Well, and the other thing, you know, that you and I were taught in our training, and again, talking to some of our colleagues, I don't know why this connection wasn't there, but just even they say like even a fight with a spouse or with a workmate. will completely wipe out your IgA levels, which is like your endothelial protective layer for a period of time, for aborts of days. And so imagine being in that chronic...

you know, stress-induced environment that's literally wiping away the sort of Teflon coating, if you will, to your genital urinary tract and the whole tube of your GI tract. You know, it's pretty compelling.

Yeah, let alone when you think about the impact of stress and trauma on the microbiome, which is well established now. And we know that the gut microbiome is related to the vaginal microbiome. And we know that when the vaginal microbiome is disrupted, women are at increased risk of HPV. So there's another line, right? You go...

The connection to the microbiome, gut, vaginal microbiome, and boom, you're again susceptible to HPV. Another, wow, wow, wow. Well, and I think about some of the other pieces here of just think about what we are also having women do. From the moment they start their periods. Can we talk about that one for a moment? From the birth control pills? Well, birth control pills, there's the hormonal piece, but even what we're literally physically putting against our hoo-ha. Yes. That's who I mean.

And even diapers, if you really want to talk about it, of just this chronic, low-grade, local. Toxin exposure, the bleaches, the dioxins. You talked about the microbiome disruption. It starts there, but it also is an absorptive surface. Yes. Right? And so... You're putting all those chemicals in your tampons and your pads and your diapers and your feminine hygiene products and your condoms and all your things right into contact with the most vulnerable and sensitive.

tissue of our body yeah yes let alone spermicides and and then when we get a bacterial infection then we're putting antibiotics that further disrupts the microbiome then women are dealing with bv and yeast over and over again And the treatments from the standard gynecology guidelines is not effective. So women are on repeat antibiotics or antifungals, which only further disrupts the microbiome. And most practitioners are not helping to restore.

a healthy vaginal microbiome yeah and so as you're saying this is such an important part of women's bodies and yet women are also i think we're not taught to protect this area of our body we're We're actually sort of taught to sacrifice this part of our body for what? For a relationship? for what someone else thinks we should be doing. We're really not taught how to take care of this. Certainly not in elementary school. Certainly not even in medical school. Amazing.

Well, you just got me thinking about what was happening in my life and my health at that time from about age nine when they put me on birth control pills, or actually 11 on birth control pills from my severe, severe endometriosis to the multitude of... infections I kept getting, which they would give me an antibiotic, which then would create vaginal dysbiosis, which would create fungal infections. You just spoke to the crazy train that my body was on.

during those six years, you know? And it's like, oh, no wonder. Like there was stripping away the hormonal input, the chemical input, the massive heavy bleeds I was having. I was having to do massive amounts of like super double. dosing of tampons plus pads. So imagine what was touching up against my cervix. That's in addition to the stress of the environment and the trauma. So when you think about it, my gosh, Donnie.

Even just thinking about my situation, just thinking about even a healthy young woman, she starts her period, she starts using, you know, tampons and pads. She starts to be told that her secretions down there are not. We got to make them smell differently or look differently. And so we start to medicate there. We end up with a partner who may be shaming us into what's happening there and then whatever we're being exposed to in the birth control methods. It's like suddenly this stacking.

of an area that contains so much emotional energy, you know, memory, safety or lack thereof. Like, there's a lot that gets stacked up in that little bowl of our being. It really is true. Thank you for seeing that and sharing your story. And the research shows that when women have BV and or yeast, it increases risk of HPV and cervical dysplasia.

And it also, we also see we're kind of talking a lot about younger women, but I want to, because a lot of times women, we think, oh, this is something that happens to younger women, but I want to emphasize it. I think probably at least 50% of the women diagnosed with HPV and dysplasia are over 50 years old. Yeah. So this is also happening to women after menopause because women think, oh.

I went through menopause. I don't have my period anymore. I don't have to think about pap smears anymore. But yes, you do. Because actually what can happen is when women go through perimenopause, you know, even starting in your 40s, maybe even earlier. And definitely after menopause, estrogen levels drop unless you're using a vaginal estrogen or hormone replacement therapy. But if you're not using any hormone replacement therapy, your estrogen drops. And when estrogen drops vaginally, that...

also disrupts the vaginal microbiome and increases risk of HPV. But you know one thing that really, when I read this research, it really got me, is that... There's research that shows that the higher-risk HPV virus itself, the actual virus, disrupts the vaginal microbiome to its benefit. So this virus is very sneaky and very smart. It's coming in. I believe that HPV virus, it knows when we're depleted by stress.

And disrupted microbiome and disrupted nutrients for that matter. And it comes in and it takes advantage of the environment and makes it more beneficial for itself. It takes it hostage. It does. It hijacks our cells. It literally, the goal of the HPV virus is it wants to hijack the cell. It goes into the cell, into the DNA of the cell and starts changing the shape of the cells toward cancer cells.

So what I train women is to realize that HPV is an innovator in your body. And it's time for you to take your body back. It's time for us as women to say, I'm men. for that matter, when men are dealing with this too, and sometimes men are diagnosed by the time they have abnormal cells, or some countries of the world, men are tested for HPV more often. Either way, it's about saying, I'm going to take my body back.

And I'm going to get my bodyguards, right? The microbiome should be our bodyguards and say, it'd be bouncers and bounce that HPV right out of there before it has a chance to hijack ourselves. I love it. Even if it already is in the cells, we can help the body slough off those cells. Just like our body grows new cells on our arms and our skin every day, it can grow new cells on the cervix. We just have to...

help the body slough off those abnormal cells, kick that virus out of there, and say, from now on, I'm protecting myself. I have a fortress of protection. Because a lot of women think, does this mean I can never be sexually active?

that I can never trust my partner, that I can't date, that I can't, you know, women get very afraid, of course, because their doctor's telling them that there's nothing they can do and they are going to have it forever. And they've been through surgeries and procedures.

Sometimes women are not only having their cervix go under surgery, but a hysterectomy. And then what can happen is because when you have a procedure or a surgery, it doesn't kill the virus. The procedure doesn't kill the virus. Yeah. So then it can come back as vaginal abnormal cells or anal abnormal cells. And women are like, what is going on here? And the doctors then are.

running out of options. And I'm the one showing up saying, you can, you have to go after the virus, doing a procedure. This is where we're focusing on the wrong thing. We're focused on the abnormal cells. Just like we focus on the tumor so much of the time, right? We were focused on the wrong team. Yes. Okay. If there's abnormal cells, we want to address them and get rid of them. But we have to focus on the virus and figure out why is your body not clearing it?

Nisha, you mentioned something that I want to point out, which is related to nutrients that I find is often missed. Yes. And it's so common, which is, I mean, definitely. There's a lot of different nutrient deficiencies that can happen in women that can be related to this. I mean, you can imagine vitamin D deficiency is super common, very much related to the immune system, even vitamin C.

So we most don't get enough of it and can make such a difference. B vitamins, we can go into that. But one of the most surprising nutrients that I find related to this is iron. Because like you, you're having a heavy menstrual period. Bleeding means you're going to lose your iron. And so a lot of women I see, if not anemia, they have a very low ferritin.

Interesting, yeah. And iron, as much as there's other concerns that, you know, I know sometimes people say, well, iron related to cancer, there's questions. But what I'm seeing is iron, if we don't have enough iron, it's essential. for our immune system too. And more of it's like you're showing that there's this like, there's like a teeter-totter that we should have a certain amount of iron on board for prevention and health creation.

But once we cross over, because what's interesting on my side of the world is typically when people come to see me with an advanced cervical cancer, their iron is actually now high. The body, those cancer cells will sequester it. So what Dr. Donnie is speaking to is like in the prevention place, optimizing, topping off, making sure your iron storage is good and your iron levels are good in the preventative space because she's seeing that when it's low, that's another.

level of armor that's missing there. Yes. Really interesting. And wow, I love that you brought up some of the other nutrients because that's one of the things you and I were taught in school is like basically this oral and local nutrient repletion. bringing things back on board. And one thing I'm curious about if there's what the new research is, because it was really hot and heavy when I was in my family practice working with a lot of people with HPV.

was also deficiencies in vitamin A. And we utilize a lot of tools and resources, which I know you do, and your recommendations of how we can bring vitamin A back into the building, which is our nature's, you know, our endogenous antiviral. Exactly. I love it. And a lot of times people will hear about beta carotene, but of course the issue is that a lot of people don't convert beta carotene well to vitamin A.

And so you could be taking a whole lot of beta carotene and still not raising your vitamin A levels. And so absolutely, I think vitamin A is such an important piece of this protocol as an immune support and directly antiviral. And we can use it orally, but we can also use it vaginally. Love this. I love it. And Donnie, so like walk people through. What is standard of care's prevention strategy right now?

for this and compare to yours. Let's do a cross comparison briefly of what would a standard of care doctor say? Here's how you prevent HPV, just cut and dry. And how would you talk about this? Well, most times what women hear, first of all, when they find out their pap smear results and maybe that they're testing positive for iRisk HPV, a lot of times their practitioner doesn't tell them much. You know, a lot of times they're not explained. What is this virus?

How did you get it? What are the risks? They're not taught any of that. So they're kind of like, they're just taught, come back, told to come back in like six months and recheck it. And so the thinking in this standard of care is. They're essentially just looking to see, do abnormal cells develop? If so, now that person qualifies for a LEAP procedure or other type of procedure to remove the abnormal cells. So they're just looking for...

Does this person need a procedure or does this person have cancer and need to be referred to the oncologist? And that's as far as it goes. They're not thinking of why is this happening or what else is going on and how else can I help this person? This is not part of the standard of care. Whereas with me, I would say.

As soon as that HPV is showing positive, whether there's abnormal cells or not, I start saying, yes, we need to address, if there's abnormal cells, we're going to address them. We don't want them to advance. I'd rather catch them sooner than later and prevent that. I don't even. I don't even like to let CIN 1 sit there. I'd rather be proactive and say, let's prevent it from going to CIN 2. CIN 1 and 2, can you clarify for our listeners? Yes. Sorry about this.

it's like a it's like a spectrum you know like i really like i'm glad you're stopping me to say like what really are we looking at here and i teach this in the in the classes that I teach, online classes to women around the world, and I teach them. I have them, by the way, I have them call the doctor's office, ask for their PAP and HPV results so they have a copy of it because most practitioners are not giving their results to women.

And then I teach them what do these results mean? Where are you on this spectrum of advancing HPV? So that they know what's going on in their bodies and they understand. What are their options every step of the way so that women can be empowered health advocates for themselves instead of just in this. dark, unknown place waiting to find out if the doctor says they need a procedure. That's too, it's so scary, right? Right, right. And by the time you need a procedure, it's...

It's like there's so much that could have been done to even ward off the necessity of a procedure. And that's where Donnie comes in. Like you were helping them say, we don't even need the procedure if we hit this off at the pass soon enough. Yeah, because to me, I mean, I understand that, you know, providers, that's how they make their living is on procedures. Whereas I'm not making, I could be doing that, right? As a naturopathic doctor and primary care provider, I could.

be working in a clinic doing pap smears and, you know, doing that standard of care. But I saw, wait a minute, there's so much we can do to prevent this. And so, yeah, so what I'm doing is I'm, we're looking at those results and we're looking at on this spectrum from.

Okay, HPV positive. Then we say, are there abnormal cells in health severe? Are they? So the first step on that spectrum would be what's referred to as ASCIS, which is... atypical squamous cells of undetermined significance which is quite a mouthful but we call it ascus and the ascus essentially means inflammation it means that HPV virus is causing inflammatory responses in the cell that are not abnormal cells just inflammatory responses.

Now, it's important to keep in mind that inflammatory responses on the cell can happen from other causes besides HPV. It can happen from yeast or BV or low estrogen or other causes, right? So if we see ascus, we have to say it may or may not be because of the HPV. But we know that then we can do things that are anti-inflammatory and go after the virus and get it to go back to normal. After ASCIS, it would progress to CIN1. This is the most modern terminology.

CIN1 meaning an intraepithelial lesion on the cervix. And so it means that cells are at a state, like a CIN1, kind of like level one. and and level one is considered low grade so a lot of times pap and colposcopy results will still use the terminology low grade even though that's really considered older terminology but it's low grade meaning It doesn't qualify yet for a procedure at low grade or CIN1. That's their watch and wait phase.

If it goes to CIN2 or CIN3, now the cells are starting to look a little bit closer to cancer cells, but they're not quite cancer cells. And I'm like, well, good thing we caught it before it turned into cancer. And CIN23, now it does qualify for potentially from a procedure from the doctor's office. So the doctor is likely to start talking about a LEAP or in other countries, it's called a LETS procedure. Or they might, if you've already had.

procedures in the past they might talk about a colonization or cone biopsy where they remove part of the cervix now these procedures can cause guard tissue they can damage the cervix so women who are wanting a future pregnancy, this could impact the ability to maintain a pregnancy. We'd rather avoid that. But I want women to know that if you are having to have these procedures, there's ways.

for the gynecologist to help you maintain a pregnancy. But we still we still want to deal with it before it goes further, because one thing past CIN3 is now a carcinoma in situ. Right. So now it's right before it turns into cancer. And at that point, then it's more likely you're going to need a more advanced surgery like a hysterectomy or certainly depending on if it goes to cancer cells or.

a tumor you're more likely to require a surgery to remove the tumor and also other cancer treatment so we we're trying i'm focused on how do i help us stay away from that area. But even I do work with patients who have been diagnosed with an HPV related cancer. And my role in that is to help them to address the HPV because

And most, you know, like oncologists or even holistic oncologists, they're going to be focusing on how do we address the cancer. There's very little focus on the virus even then. Right. And to be quite frank, the treatments we often do once it has. moved into the cancer space is we give pre-assertive cytotoxic therapies that themselves render the immune system vulnerable to actually harbor viruses even more. So we...

We kind of are continuing to set the patient up for failure, honestly. And so that's why I think that you can both go after the tumor and the tumor cells while simultaneously going after and supporting the terrain that allowed those tumor cells to get on the move.

So this is what's really beautiful. This is what Dr. Donnie does. And the other cool thing I think you mentioned here, which I want people to like think about this, like to recap the description you just gave us of the ASCIS and the CIN-123. and this situ, in situ, you know, early cancer stage and beyond, is you showed us a continuum. But what I want folks to get is this continuum is not unidirectional.

bi-directional. Exactly. And this is what's so, so cool. And this is what Donnie's getting to. You want to go in the other direction. Right. You can see that happen. I mean, like you said, early on, 90% of the time, you do absolutely nothing and it'll resolve on its own. beautiful miracles of our body. But what Donnie is trying to say and what I would completely back 100% is please don't wait to see, right? Like be proactive now. What is that virus trying to tell you? Because

You know, it's there because it had an opportunity to be there. It's not there because it's a jerk and it's out there seeking, you know, seeking your body. It's like, oh, this environment's hospitable to my activity. what can we, the Dr. Donnie's other world, what can we do about that? And so here's where I also wanted to have you compare and contrast. You mentioned that in standard of care, we have to get to a certain stage of that continuum before we act with a particular.

treatment. I would love for you in a moment to talk about what you would do at those different stages as well. I mean, ultimately, stage zero and prevention of it ever showing up to maybe even up to that edge of the cancer gate. But I also want to tie in, and I know this is very, very controversial, but you and I were in medicine, in med school, and in early practice long before we had a vaccine to offer this population.

And I saw a ton of patients with cervical dysplasia and cervical cancer. And I had therapies that I did in my... practice. And we can talk about some of these here in a moment because I'm sure Dr. Donnie does or did a lot of these procedures as well. Things like ascarotics and badge packs and nutrients and whatnot, replenishment of nutrients, and also just lifestyle training and teaching.

But up until that point, we were able to recover people. I mean, I had CIN choose and threes and even inside choose go completely into remission with just our input. And so when the vaccines came out, it's almost like a whole swath of generations of naturopathic and integrative and functional medicine practitioners deferred to the vaccines as being the answer.

Then yet I will tell you, and I'm sure Donnie, I'd love to hear from you, of how many patients you've seen who had the vaccine and still had got cancer. Absolutely. That's one part of the story. The other part of the story is that those vaccines only cover a few of the varietals of this virus. It has a lot of flavors, if you will. And so it's not going to cover the gamut. So people still need to be taking proactive approaches.

And whether you are a believer in the vaccines or not, there have been a lot of harm caused by some of these vaccines. I've seen the fallout for that myself directly. I know Dr. Donnie has. And then the fourth piece is that I can remember when they first rolled out, I was really concerned that it would take away that personal agency.

you know, and sovereignty and how to best know your body and care for your body and create boundaries for your body. And so I know I threw a lot out there on the table, Donnie.

I would love for you to pick up wherever, whichever one feels appropriate to go on. I know this is your entire world, your entire expertise. Well, I'm glad you're mentioning the vaccine because a lot of times that is also the thing people will say is like, oh, well, just get the vaccine and you should have gotten the vaccine or something like that. And it's like.

No, there's many women who contact me who have had the vaccine and they are still testing positive and still dealing with this loop of procedures. So it's not just about the vaccine either. Yes, we want to consider all the potential treatments. So I always say if someone's considering the vaccine, you want to like any vaccine or anything you put in your body for that matter, you're going to look at.

What are the potential benefits? What are the potential risks? I wouldn't skip that with a vaccine for sure, right? No matter what food you're going to eat, no matter what. supplement you're going to take no definitely no matter what vaccine you're going to take what are the potential benefits what are the potential risks and and and how much is it really working now Gardasil 9 stands it says nine because it's actually covering seven

of the 14 high-risk types. So it's only covering half of the strains that are associated with cancer risk. The other two in there are for low-risk types. So it's... It's not covering all the strains. And even those that it's covering, it's not 100% effective. We see the breakthrough. Yeah, we see that. There's this myth of, oh, just get the vaccine.

It really needs to be reconsidered and clarified for women to be able to know the truth. It's not just about, and for parents, because a lot of times it's parents that are deciding, do I give my child this vaccine?

And you have to really think through, hey, what are the benefits? What are the risks? How effective could it potentially be? And if the person ends up with high-risk HPV anyway, we can't just then leave them with no other options we have to be like okay if that happens then what can we do and so to go to your question of what do i do from a

naturopathic perspective uh it's really i use our our ladder of intervention right it's like we talked about we know that stress is playing a role so to me and the studies show this to and encourage practitioners to help women with stress recovery and social support when they're dealing with HPV. Unfortunately, that's not been integrated in the standard of care or gynecology. So you just have to know that your doctor hasn't been trained in that.

So they're probably not going to mention it to you. But the research and the encouragement does exist. And I'm taking a stand to say women who are dealing with high-risk HPV and abnormal pap smears need support with stress and trauma. And that should be part of the care. If it's not part of the care you're receiving, we need to get you access to support with the stress and trauma, even simply the stress and trauma of dealing with HPV because...

Being diagnosed with HPV and going through these medical procedures leads to a lot of medical trauma for women. And we need to even just help them recover from the stress and trauma of dealing with HPV because that then can perpetuate their risk. So that's a starting place. Absolutely. And then I'm going to be looking at diet, of course. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, what does diet have to do with this? Right. It has everything to do with this. Even if we just think about.

sugar refined sugar in our diet we know you right we just like you said when we're exposed to stress our immune system goes down same we're exposed to refined sugar immune system goes down alcohol Alcohol drops our immune system. So those even just those obvious parts of our dietary intake impact our ability to protect ourselves from high risk HPV. So we have to look there. But I take it deeper. I go.

Which foods are inflammatory? Because we know, right? I know you love talking about inflammation too. And if we're eating a diet that's inflammatory in our gut, that doesn't just stay in the gut, right? That inflammation spreads around our body. including to the vagina. And the inflammation in the vagina from our diet is going to make us more susceptible to HPV. So we need to help clean up the diet. How do we get anti-inflammatory?

eating? Are there food sensitivities? Is there leaky gut? Let's heal the leaky gut. Are we eating pesticides? Is it non-organic food? We know that's going to influence the microbiome and so much more. We got to get to it or get it. So we do this. We train women how to shift their diet to what I call clean eating, even blood sugar balancing, because studies also show that when women are on this blood sugar roller coaster.

even if it's on diabetes. Now, I see a lot of women with diabetes who test positive for HPV because the blood sugar fluctuations, even if they're on insulin, it makes them susceptible to HPV. So I help them then. address the blood sugar fluctuations, even if it's relatively minor blood sugar fluctuations, it's going to impact the risk of HPV. So we do full clinical nutrition.

support for women who are in this situation and sometimes that alone helps them through the virus let alone looking into these nutrient deficiencies so we do specific blood tests to identify whether their ferritin or iron is low or their vitamin d or their b vitamins their methylation we got to look all about methylation i know you love talking about that too because of course

Methylation has everything to do with making healthy cells. And we're talking about making healthy cells on the cervix. So, of course, we need healthy methylation to make healthy cells on the cervix, let alone methylation helping us to detoxify estrogen. and toxins. So we absolutely need optimal methylation. And so we go, I go deep into that and like go, okay, let's start checking homocysteine, methylmalonic acid. Let's make sure.

And we're not going to be using folic acid, even though a lot of the research, older research was using folic acid. I'm like, I train women, if your multi or your B complex is folic acid, we got to switch it immediately. Because.

It's not going to help. It's very likely it's just going to do nothing. So let's, we might, if you're going to swallow a B vitamin, let's make sure you're swallowing methylfolate. And I know I'm going fast, but it just to give you a sense of like, we go very specific because.

To me, HPV virus is a powerful virus. This is a virus, these 14 strains are associated with cancer risk. This is a virus that humans are exposed to that can cause cancer. That's a very... serious monster of a virus we can't just come up with a little tiny yeah we can't expect that's gonna do it we're gonna have to be like no we're gonna make some rapid diet changes we're gonna figure out

Where are the nutrients depleted? What's impacting your methylation? Is it because of inflammation? Is it because of toxicity? I see women who have mold exposure, Roundup exposure. We help them detoxify because, right, if you have toxins, these toxins completely block methylation and block your immune system. We're in trouble. That's defenseless. Yeah. Oh, this is great. I can hang out here. Hi, everybody. I am Dr. Nisha Winters. And if you've been listening to me for a while.

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Here's what I think is so cool. For anyone who follows my work and has ever read the book, The Metabolic Approach to Cancer and my Terrain 10 Drivers, Dr. Donnie literally just went through the entire checklist over our discussion together. So what I love, and this is, I don't know if it's because we're naturopaths or just very systems thinking clinicians, but you recognize that there's not a single cause and a single target or single treatment.

You recognize that the virus shows up because the environment allows it to and allows it to get the upper hand. And you also have shown us in this discussion that we can do things in the environment to make... to make it inhospitable to that virus wanting to hang around. And so there's like this overarching, as much as there's been a lot of information here, it's really simple. We can make...

a happy home for that virus or not. So I think that that's what, Donnie, you are so gifted as you're helping the individual understand what allowed that virus to take root. And you also empower the person, whether they already have HPV or never have had it or have a high risk strain and don't have disease yet, but are in that place to prevent it or have already progressed into tissue destruction.

that may be precancerous or cancerous, you have tools and resources along the road. And so some of the things you do are diet and lifestyle. Some of the things you do are, I think what you're most famous for is the mental, emotional, and stress reduction component, which is...

how all of the right tools will land if you have the stress reduction piece in place and the mental emotional, this is your gift. And then the other sort of treatments or protocols you might weave in are likely based on the individual and that. continuum, like where they are. Like maybe you don't need to be as aggressive with maybe local treatments if it's an ASCIS or a CIN1, but you might need a little bit of input locally if it's getting more aggressive. Do you want to...

Speak into that continuum of like what choices of tools you might bring on board based on their terrain and based on the continuum of the virus itself. Yeah, so we do oral supplements. for all scenarios because we want to get that oral nutrition we also use herbal approaches um homeopathic remedies peptides there's a lot we can do to as you're saying come from every angle to be

supporting the immune system and antiviral, but not just that. We got to address all of these, I call them susceptibilities. A person could have one or many susceptibilities to this virus or root causes, right? So we're going to do that from oral. also in their world and their environment and their lifestyle. And we can use vaginal approaches as well. And so I also have developed vaginal suppositories that again will come using.

nutrients like vitamin A and herbs like curcumin and green tea that are known to be Antioxidants, anti-inflammatory, antiviral, anti-tumor. You know all of that research. So why not use these herbs locally in the vaginal area? And there are ways for those to be... professionally compounded. And also then, as you've mentioned, there's a traditional treatment called ascorrhotic treatments, which is a little bit of a tongue twister, but...

Escorrhotic treatments are over 100 years old, I believe. Yeah. herbal nutrient and enzyme treatments directly on the cervix to slough off abnormal cells and ascorrhotic treatments as you and I were both trained to do them years ago, decades ago. are very effective at sloughing off abnormal cells from the cervix without causing any scar tissue or damage to the cervix. Right.

I know you and I've talked before, and the success rate is very high with estrogen treatments, and we're using nutrients and herbs and bromelain, which is an enzyme to gently exfoliate the cells. So ascoronics, unfortunately, not very many practitioners are trained in how to appropriately do ascoronics treatments, but I believe they should be.

trained in how to do them. And that's why I'm also now starting to train practitioners. I'm training practitioners in the entire HPV protocol that I use and also in how to do eschalotic treatments because I want... I want to reduce the rate of cervical cancer, and I'm making a dent in it myself, but to really reduce the rates of cervical cancer the way it ought to be, what women deserve?

We're going to need a lot of practitioners who know how to do what I'm doing. And it should not be a secret. It should be where women are going to their practitioner, whether that's a gynecologist. or other holistic practitioner, and they can get this protocol to say, what diet changes do I need to make? Which supplements do I take? What doses? Because women will search online, Nisha, right now, and they search and they come up with some stuff.

Because women want health. Women already are having the thought that there has to be another way. Yeah. And so women are having that thought and they're looking for it. And so they're finding some information out there. But when they come to me and I evaluate what they're doing, what I inevitably find is that it's not strategic. It's not comprehensive. It's not clinically effective. Some of them made me...

successful at clearing HPV, but many of them are not. And it's because they're just grabbing info online that's not from a practitioner like you and I who've been doing this and know how to be systematic and comprehensive about this. And so I... Warn women to not try to do this on your own. You might end up just wasting time and not being successful. Don't give up. I'm here and I've created resources you can access on your own.

And if you're a practitioner, I've created resources so you can learn how you can help the women in your practice so that you can help them to prevent the need procedures. If you want to learn how to do ascoronics, I can teach you so you can do this in your clinics and we can be helping women, actually helping them. Yes. And not just helping treat that local disease.

You're changing these people entire, their entire constitutions. It's so beautiful when you take someone through the journey. Absolutely. This is the thing is by the time we fix the things we're talking about. Yes, we've gotten rid of that virus. It's like my HPV virus is running for the hills because it's like, oh, geez, she just figured out what was going on here. It's out of there.

And the body can heal the cells. We see CIN1, CIN2 resolve, CIN3 resolve all the time, over and over. Every week I hear from women following my protocol who are having complete resolution, HPV negative. Their doctor says... You're now can, you know, come back on a regular schedule. You don't have to be coming back every three to six months. And by the time they do that, they've completely shifted their whole health, right? By the time you heal, you change your diet.

You heal your gut. You heal your microbiome. You solve nutrient deficiencies. You solve methylation. You detoxify. Now you've prevented all kinds of different health issues. Women are coming back saying, oh, my skin looks better. My hair is growing. People are commenting how much healthier I look. I'm getting better sleep. My mood is improved. My lost weight that I needed to lose. And they're preventing, we know they're preventing diabetes.

other types of cancer, dementia, osteoporosis, all the things we worry about, right? Because it's interrelated to those same factors. And so you know what we call it? In my Say Goodbye to HPV program, we call it a heroine's transformation because these women are becoming their own hero. I'm not taking...

I'm just their guide. I'm just showing them what they didn't know was right in front of them. And I'm just showing them and guiding them and they're implementing it. They're becoming their own hero or heroine. to completely change their life and their future. Oh my gosh. I mean, you're taking them so far beyond the option of watch and wait, or even the option of just vaccinate, or even the option of we'll just hack it off as it comes back again.

You are literally helping women move from fear of maybe what an abnormal pap result could mean to an empowerment and action. And you also weave in with your programs, both for the layperson or the do-it-yourself or the work with you directly. Now, soon to be for the clinician, you also are showing the role community. And even sisterhood, when it's specific to the female aspect of this.

in the role it plays in this whole journey. I mean, Donnie, you have created a movement around this. And so, first of all, I want people to know where to find you. Talk about your programs. You talk about them a little bit. It'll be in the show notes.

And then after you tell us where to find you, if you would offer me the opportunity to ask you what I call my sort of rapid fire questions so people can get to know you a little bit better, we'll take it home with that. But tell people, how can we learn more from you? How can we train with you? How can we work with you? Well, if you would just come to, my website is at drdoni.com. So it's, Doni is spelled D-O-N-I, D-O-N-I. It's short for Doniel, but it's easiest for people to go with. So it's.

D-R-D-O-N-I, or you can spell it out, D-O-C-T-O-R-D-O-N-I.com. And you're going to see there where you can find how to contact me. You'll see a whole area of my website about HPV where you can find. a lot of different free videos and resources as well as the the workshop i mentioned we do a free online workshop every couple months called the um how to get rid of hpv workshop you can sign up for that and join me to learn more

And then from there, you can either do the Say Goodbye to HPV program, which is a group online program. We have such an amazing, beautiful community of women healing themselves in that. Talk about community. It's beautiful.

And I also offer one-on-one care, which you can find there, as well as the practitioner training so that practitioners can be trained in my... so that we can really change, as you said, this movement to women should not be being diagnosed with cervical cancer, going through it on their own.

There's so much we can do to prevent this. I love it. I love it. I love it. You're amazing. These resources are amazing. Please follow her, like her, reach her books. This woman is a wealth of information and it's just a joy to... co-create health creation together on this planet. So, okay, a couple of fun things. You ready? Here we go. Rapid fire. Coffee, tea, or neither? I like tea. I actually love coffee.

But my system is very sensitive to caffeine. So I go with tea. I love it. Maybe you have a sip. 2A1 snip going on there. Okay. Morning ritual that sets the tone for your day. Wow. I take care of a lot of animals on my property. So I love to get up and I go outside because, of course, get outside and get our sunlight exposure and take care of the animals.

on my property so that's and and even better is when my little granddaughter can come with me i have a two and a half year old granddaughter and she loves to come with me to see the the deer we have deer on the property so on the other animals. So yeah. Oh my gosh. Yummy. That sounds divine for all of us. Okay. What's the book on your nightstand right now? Oh, I have like probably 10, 10 books.

Let me see. What is, what is, you know, because we also just came from a conference where we received like 10 books. So many good ones too. Yeah. But, you know. One of the books that I'm listening to right now is from Elizabeth Gilbert, you know, from E, Pray, Love, her new book, which is actually on Spotify. I think it's called To the River. Let me pull it up. yes yeah that's a good one that's a good one okay if you weren't a doctor what do you think you'd be doing

I'd probably be ballroom dancing. I do already ballroom dance. I was waiting for that. I do already ballroom dance, even as a doctor. But I think if I wasn't a doctor, I would just spend all day at the dance studio. I love it. That was going to be one of my next questions is what would people, what would they be surprised to learn about you? And I think that this woman is dancing is in your DNA. I love that. And I think the final question for you today is what's one health miss?

you wish would disappear forever? It's going to be related to HPV. It's the myth. that women hear every day, even from their doctor's offices, they're hearing this myth that it's not possible to get rid of HPV. And we didn't learn this in medical school. But I learned it from women, from my patients over decades. I see them clearing HPV to negative.

Over and over. And Neisha, I have patients who I helped over 15 years ago coming back to me and saying HPV is still negative. How many years does it have to be before we finally say? Yes, it is possible to get rid of HPV because I see it's happening. So to me, that's a myth. You can get rid of HPV and you can keep it gone. You are. It's amazing, Dr. Donnie. It's such a joy to learn from you today. I'm hoping that people are fired up with this and empowered from this as I know they will be.

Thank you for your precious time. This was a conversation we could have had going on forever because it is so like we started. It's sort of taboo for some reason. I think you've helped us. shine some very important light on it and help demystify it and take the fear and the disempowerment out of it. So thank you for all you do.

Thank you for what you do. Thank you for having me. And if anything else I can do or if you have any questions or your audience has any questions, don't hesitate to reach out to me. Yeehaw. Thank you. You're welcome. Yet again, another amazing discussion with Dr. Donnie. I'm so grateful that she brought such clarity and compassion to this very sensitive conversation. You've been given...

an ability to think about cervical health in a new way, thanks to Dr. Donnie's input, one that's rooted in empowerment, resilience, and choice. For those listening, if you're navigating an abnormal pap smear, HPV or simply want to prevent cervical cancer naturally, I encourage you to learn more about Dr. Donnie's Say Goodbye to HPV program and her stress recovery protocol. You can find all of that at drdonnie.com. And also look down below in the show notes.

Thanks so much again for joining us here at Metabolic Matters. If this episode resonated, please share it with someone you love and remember your health, your voice, and your choices truly matter. Thank you for tuning in to Metabolic Matters. We hope today's conversation offered insight and inspiration that you can carry into your own journey. Be sure to check out the show notes for links

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