Méta de choc. Et si on se demandait pourquoi on pense ce qu'on pense ? Shocking 8. La pensée critique appliquée à soi. Hello everyone! This show is in English but let me say a few words to my French audience first. Please click at the bottom right of this video for English or French subtitles. Bonjour à tous !
Nous voilà de retour à Vancouver dans la même série que ma précédente interview de Jessica Schab, ancienne gourou de la spiritualité New Age et personnage principal du film documentaire que nous faisons ensemble sur son parcours hors norme. Jessica is presentatrice d'une radio radio basée à New York, WBAI, and she took part of my presence to do an interview with me. It's so my turn to be passed by the moulinette.
Croyance, esprit critique et métacognition, je vous dis tout sur ce qui me motive dans mon travail de documentariste et de podcasteuse. Cette conversation a été filmée, profitant de la présence de mon chef opérateur. Si vous êtes en train d'écouter cette émission sur votre application de podcast préférée, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podcast Addict ou Deezer, je vous encourage à nous rejoindre dès maintenant sur la chaîne YouTube du même nom.
Ready? Let's go! Thank you, Elizabeth Fiti, for being on our show today! Thank you, Jessica. So you are a producer of documentaries and now you also have your Meta Shock podcast as well. Yes, true. I just launched a podcast in France and in French, actually, which is called Meta de Shock. which is a play on words in French playing with the idea of state of shock but with meta as metacognition so how metacognition can make us realize certain things and suddenly be shocked about the way we think.
and the biases we have. So I've for now had four episodes and it's going quite well. I'm happy with it. Cool. We'll talk more about that. I just am curious how you got into, like, because the kind of films you make are very particular when it comes to documentaries. It always has to have a theme of critical thinking.
Metacognition, correct? Yes, exactly. That's the topics I'm interested in. How did you get interested in those topics? Well, mainly, before that I was a producer... mainly making films about arts and history and then I got interested in... I was already interested in psychology and knowing people and myself, you know, trying to...
communicate better with people and also know myself better but then i i found out about metacognition which is really thinking about the way i think and the way people think collectively and personally each person being different obviously and I got passionate about this and it came out actually at the time when I met in Portugal And since I've really focused on that because I think it's very interesting and very important that people...
be triggered and made to think about those things because we're not used to doing this. to observe and question the way we think we know about psychology we know about beliefs but we don't necessarily dissect or just observe our reflexes, our ways of thinking and reactions. Why do you think that is? Why don't people know to do this? I mean, it seems to be sort of obvious, right?
I don't think it's obvious because if you're not educated in this way, you won't have the reflex to do it. I think it's just... I mean, one can be... curious about this but observing yourself is not enough if you don't have a method to do it to actually dissect what you can observe You can go in circles and think all over again, always about the same things and not really understand what's going on in your mind. You can know what's going on in your mind without really understanding.
Nowadays we have a lot of new information about this thanks to science and cognitive science precisely and neurosciences too.
We know more about the way we think and the biases, for example. This is quite new, actually. It's a few decades. And neuroscience is helping, too. So it's new. And I think we need education. We need to be educated and we need to have the... flex and the interest and the curiosity to go this way and nowadays this is not something that is brought up about yeah that's right yes sorry
at school or even in your own family. It's not something that is important right now in our societies, I think. Is it challenging for you to do or for others to do? um yeah about myself yeah to be able to apply it yeah um I wouldn't say it's challenging. For me it's very exciting because I really like exploring my mind. I really like trying to understand what's going on.
fine or when when I'm sad for example or struggling with something it's really for me a tool and it's actually something that makes me suffer less because when I'm sad or when I'm facing something difficult in my life I can have this kind of external eye you know and observe myself struggling actually But trying to understand what's going on or trying to name what's going on...
What am I set for? What's going on? Is it obviously linked to the fact that I'm preoccupied with or is it something else? Maybe there's something else. Maybe it's my education linked to that fact, the way I interpret it, for example.
it's something else that it's in the background that is not really conscient and so for me it's really something I love doing and I have very nice results with this actually because it makes you first I would say it makes you have this external insight which makes things far less dramatic. Suddenly you're looking at it as if it was some kind of a fiction film. So you're not totally immersed in it. Rather than your life and taking it personal with all the things going on.
Yeah, exactly. And second, when you observe things and you try to understand them and be critical about them and understand at some point that it's a bias, for example, a very human. bias or that it's something you it's a pattern you you keep repeating then at some point you can actually understand really understand the roots understand what's going on and then overcome it so the results are very interesting, I would say.
It's very efficient. What I like about metacognition is how it helps you see your blind spots. You know, I'm very fascinated with that, right? Because it's such a hard thing to see. But do you find that this is the same case for you? Have you discovered? Some of your own blind spots with metacognition? Yeah, I think the blind spots are there because we are not attentive to what's going on. We take for granted things we think we know in a way. And questioning.
your mindset so questioning the way you react to your life and the nice and less nice events in your life is a way to see the blind spots and put into the light. things that you didn't even imagine you were thinking for example and to help you avoid unnecessary problems exactly so how you're from france yes but how is your uh metacognition how is that being received there um well It's interesting because I'm actually, I think I'm really the first one to make it something
out of the scientific field like I mean in France you have metacognition mainly linked to education like trying to understand how students or children learn how they have a reflection on their own thinking and how you can make them
actually understand things. Like Zetetics? Zetetics? Zetetics is a French word for... critical thinking and skepticism because skepticism in French means something a bit negative like criticizing I'm skeptical about the fact that you're telling me the truth that would be the way we use the words
skepticism which is negative it's not a positive thing like I'm trying to dissect understand being be critical so the French had to try to find a new word and they got this word from ancient Greek, which is linked to the art of doubting.
So zététique is a very French, actually, expression and it means critical thinking, just that. But metacognition is something that people are not used to hearing about and I introduced... kind of the interest in in metacognition among this world of zététique and yeah people are quite curious about this because what i want to show them is that critical thinking can't be just used to criticize or to have some kind of critical way of thinking about others. It has to be applied to yourself.
Is that new for them? That's new. Yeah, you study yourself, you study your own patterns. Exactly. It's hard to study other people because you don't know what's going on within them, right? Well, you know, in critical thinking, you're used to more trying to... understand why people believe in such and such beliefs so external people not yourself right you know most people don't imagine they have beliefs or if they do
they think it's okay. It's their beliefs and they're fine with them. But actually they won't question them and they won't have this metacognitive way of approaching their own thinking. So I think it's very interesting that critical...
thinkers, skeptics, actually understand that they can apply this view, this critical thinking on themselves on the way they think and actually when we went to you remember when we went to that uh skeptics congress in europe in poland um one year ago i remember yeah and we met many people that were not French and they were not really into metacognition either. They were more about understanding why people believe in ghosts or believe in organic food and think it's...
GMOs are so bad and this kind of stuff. Scientists that study critical thinking and psychology, but they don't know about metacognition. That was really interesting. Yes, and they don't apply it to themselves.
I don't think to, yeah. Because obviously we all think we're right, so we don't want to question our thinking, you know. Well, I don't think I'm right, but I just, there's certain things, I just, not certain things, I just... don't know what i don't know there's just some things you just don't consider you just go about your way living your life how you do and then
You're like, oh, why is this thing happening all the time? And then you realize, okay, there's all these blind spots and things I don't know about yet that if I can understand better, then I can prevent.
That's exactly the point. And it's very exciting. To me it's very exciting. And I'm glad because I met, now I have reached out to... an audience in France and people are intrigued because they have never heard of this you have psychology which is another way of doing it but psychology is more with someone accompanying you whereas metacognition is about self-analysis which is very different so you can you can obviously know about cognition in human biases this is helpful
But then you are trying to apply it to the observation of your own thinking. So it's not someone, a psychologist, helping you. It's you doing it with yourself. It doesn't mean you won't... need or have benefits going to a psychologist if you need it. But it's a different tool. tool yes exactly to study yourself and your own confusion yeah where would you like to see your podcast and your work on metacognition
lead to? Do you want it to lead to education? Do you have a plan for it or the ultimate goal? Each show is either made of a conversation of when i meet an expert about sociology biology neuroscience or and they tell about their research and what they found linked to the way we think or it's me meeting someone like you and me who is interested in exploring the way they think or recounting some kind of shift in their lives in the way they thought, for example.
former believers or people who suddenly understood things about themselves who have a very strong interesting personal story so with those two types of shows if it's about education which i think it is it's more towards adults and people who are interested in knowing themselves more or avoiding maybe certain sufferings and avoiding the same old traps you fall into your whole life through.
So yeah, I would say my goal is to have people be triggered and interested in actually observing themselves and analyzing themselves.
you know in their daily life it's not about studying a very specific topic and gathering new information it's more about having this kind of habit because the show is every two weeks for now because i don't have enough time and I don't have enough funding for this to make it a weekly show, but I would like it to be a weekly show because I think it's nice that people get this habit, this kind of...
Rendez-vous. New patterns, better patterns. Like, oh, I'm going to learn new things and maybe hear about new experiences. And then I'm going to question myself. Thanks to those experiences, thanks to those experts talking about how our mind works. And then question myself. I want it to be a habit for people. If they like it, if they like the idea, I would like this.
And the show is mostly in French right now, right? You don't have any English shows yet? It's all in French. The launching, the short video for the launching is subtitled in English, so anybody can go and have a look. There's a blooper too in English. Subtitled in English. But then the shows are mainly in French. I want to do one with you. Okay. So I don't know yet if I'm going to subtitle it in French or dub it. But there will be an English version.
So you say you've done four shows so far. What are the themes of... or topics of each one? The first one is about Zététique. So it's an encounter with a kind of famous figure of Zététique in France and he has a very interesting... journey personal journey he was a believer of conspiracy theories and he was also
trying to find and hunt UFOs. He was really passionate about this. He's a kind of a geek. And then at some point he was... he was a very strong believer like using cards to actually make decisions he was making a film and actually using cuts to make decisions so it was very you know he was very advanced very far into his beliefs and at some point he had a shock because his cousin who he loved died in a car accident and suddenly he was like
I don't understand the sign of this. Why? He was very much into synchronicities and trying to find the meaning in each sign in his life. And at that point he was just thinking... What's this? What is this supposed to mean? Why should I see it as something good for me? and so he started to question things and his youtube name because he's a youtuber is mr san if you want to check on on on youtube um he was the follower of a ghost hunter and that ghost hunter was making videos
And suddenly he made a video where there was a paranormal thing going on in the screen. Like a box falling on the floor with nobody around. And Mr. Sam, who is... in the film industry decided to just inquire just have a look at the video and he found there was an artifact he found that the the ghost hunter had used an effect a video effect to make it fall so it was
a fake. It was a long path for him to actually question things, but what was really important for him was when he actually put up online a video about this ghost hunter exposing it. But in a gentle way, just saying, okay, I found this artifact, there's something wrong in this video. And you, the ghost hunter, can you give me an answer, video answer about this? I would like to know why I found this, what's going on.
Mr Sam was thanked by the skeptics community in France saying you're dealing with it in a very nice way you're gentle you're just asking questions you're not attacking the guy and you're just trying to understand what's going on and from then on he felt okay I can be skeptical I can question my beliefs and I'm safe with it you know because most people when they question their beliefs they feel
like outcasts because they have to leave their community they have to leave everything and suddenly some people were telling him that's fine and that's well done you're making a good job from then on he became a youtuber specialized in skepticism so that that first show is really about him his path the second The second is about the gay identity and how gays and lesbians see themselves and how they interact with their environment, so private.
environment and most interestingly in this show in their professional environment. This study was made by a sociologist I interviewed. It's a two episode. show and it's very interesting because it was never studied the way gay people actually adapt or see themselves in their jobs and how straight people see them also and it's very interesting because there are many stereotypes but the stereotypes are also I mean they come from straight people obviously
But in the end there are also stereotypes that gay people have about themselves in a way. So it's how gay people think.
That's the theme of the show and it's very interesting. The third one is about an osteopath who wanted to... better his job his osteopathic job and started to believe in new age beliefs and conspiracy theories and light workers and this kind of stuff and energy healing and so that's also very interesting because this is a testimonial and this person stayed in this kind of beliefs for four years and then stopped and then questioned it and said okay maybe I can do my job without
all these beliefs and all these things about reptilians and and light workers and energy healing maybe i can just do my job right normally and maybe i have intuitions maybe i can feel because he is a very sensitive person he can really sense what people are feeling and so he thought it had to be something special or spiritual but in the end he realized it was not helping and that his clients were
more and more gullible more and more you know they came to him just to hear some magical stuff about oh yeah i can sense you know your grandmother is talking to you through this pain or this kind of stuff and so he stopped doing this because after four years he realized he could do his job and understand he had this ability to understand people psychologically that was nice and interesting and useful
but he didn't need the spiritual layer to it. That was his Metashock realization basically. And the fourth show? The fourth show is with a philosopher and it's about how algorithms... are really attacking, I would say, our capacity of attention. We need attention to reflect, we need attention to observe, we need attention to make good decisions.
flaky if we are always you know interrupted by our smartphones or on social media going from one link to the other it's something that actually puts our capacity of attention in danger and she studied this as a philosopher she specialized in strategies of influence communication so she's She's a teacher to students, but she's also a counselor in new technologies and media and how to reach out to people.
and so she knows all the biases she knows how it works and how YouTube and Google make us stay on the internet and actually hijack our attention for money obviously and for a publicity So that's very interesting. And it's also a two-episode show. Oh, a two-parter. Yes. Okay. And do you have an idea what your next show is going to be about? Yes. My next show is a four or five episode.
uh show so it's a big one oh and it's a testimonial from someone who was 35 years uh in a movement which is called anthroposophy and it's not very well known This name is not very well known, but it's actually a group that gathers Steiner's schools, you know, Rudolf Steiner, biodynamic agriculture. also some kind of a pharmaceutical.
products such as creams velada i don't know velada or something it's a brand it's quite well known in europe and his testimonial is very interesting because he started being in this movement when he was nine, he entered the China school. And then he left when he was more than 40 years old.
So that's a big deal. And he was actually a teacher. He became a teacher in the Steiner School. He became a very influential person in the movement. And then at some point he understood it was just brainwashing. And I was very... intrigued and astonished by his journey because how can you after 35 years starting at nine at the age of nine
How can you actually question things and how can you get out of it at some point? You have several Metashocks that make you question it and you can continue. So interesting. And this person knows really well.
how to talk about this. He's been out of it for close to 10 years now, so he has a lot of insight, understanding, of course, in the show he will be explaining what it is, this movement, but he will also explain what... was going on in his mind as a child as a teen as an adult then involved in the group and all these steps and how difficult it was for him to change his mindset
You imagine? Sounds like an interesting show and potentially a documentary as well. It could be, I don't know. A documentary is very different because you have to find a way to tell a story. It's nothing close to just a... you know conversation it's really a story how to tell a story and I'm not doing reports I'm really doing making films like fiction film but documentary you know so I really want to
When I'm starting a film, I really want something that tells a story that I can have in which I can have very many different situations and also someone who has some kind of appeal, you know, being in the frame.
and sometimes people can talk very well on a microphone like in a radio show because a podcast is just a kind of radio show but then when they're in front of the camera they might become shy or you know they might not be as interesting actually as in a podcast so yeah good point so it's a better modality for for him and for you yes you know that people can change after long
time because you and I discovered that Jewish lady that was 98 and had pork for the first time. True. Right? So it can happen and it's amazing. It's always possible.
It's always possible, but in the case of this person I interviewed from this Steiner thing, I mean it's a whole... community and i i agree the jewish community is always also very present i mean for people who really are adamant to practice their faith but that was very close community and with very specific beliefs as a whole cosmology of things I mean it's anthroposophy thinks for you everything. I mean it's a religion, it's a cosmogony, it's teaching, it's medicine.
it's even banking i mean it's a tentacle it's it's it's a multinational enterprise and and once you're in the community You have answers for everything and you don't have any need to go outside to go and see others and obviously...
It's like evil. You shouldn't go there. You shouldn't go to the cinema. You shouldn't listen to the radio. You shouldn't watch TV. So you're like... in jail so yeah it's really good that you're doing this podcast and it's just another way to get people you know aware about meta thinking and what they can do and there's so many interesting stories and people out there I'm sure that you'll find that or that you find or that will find you.
Yes, true. It's very diverse. I mean, the topics, it can seem very narrow because when I say to people, I'm making films about the way we think, they're like, okay, that's so like... okay just neuroscience or what but no it's so broad you can you know you can talk about so many things all the things that are that make us make decisions, that influence us. It's very wide, actually. And the podcast is the same. I mean, you see the topics, they're very different from one another.
I think it's infinite. So that's great. I can see that too. I just remember when you were talking to me about it, so it's great to see it into fruition now. Yes, it started in February. It's new. And you're working on a film right now. Yes. And you went out to Canada. You're here in Canada, basically, with me. Yes. And it's called Memories of a Former Mystic. What made you decide to make this film? Well... So it's a film about you. It is.
When we met, you told me you would be interested in telling your story. And as I was, you knew I was a producer, so... It's something we thought about for quite a while before actually starting to write the script. That's true. Together. And then it took a while also to write the script because in two years' time we have written three versions of it.
and quite different from one another so yeah it's a big job but what made me decide to do this to make this documentary with you was that I think you're a great character I mean on screen you have a very nice energy, your body language and also obviously you have many things to say and your experience, I mean your story is outstanding and I thought it would be very interesting for people to
to know about your story. And what's interesting too is that in the end, talking about you... um i was kind of talking about myself because i was a believer too in the new age this is what i was leading to subtly yes indirectly yeah okay 15 years in the new age that's right because you told me your story and i was kind of encouraged
you to share it as well in the film but you were a little shy about that which is understandable because we're not proud of it nope and for me i was very embarrassed with my story as well but i i also didn't want it to go to waste i thought you know i needed to do something with it and if others could benefit from it then you know that would be
make me it would help a lot right and yeah yeah I think it's very difficult to talk about this at first because you feel ridiculous yeah you know I've been having believed in such things and I thought I was a light worker I thought it was an indigo child. I believed in energy healings and I believed in the reptilians and I believed in the Pleiadians, you know, all these stuff and the fact.
that humans were kept in jail in a kind of matrix you know and this kind of stuff fighting the darkness all the time like exhaustingly right so it take it took time for me to decide i would be in the film but i i did it because actually when i presented the project because at first first version of the script you were on your own in this film i was not part of it correct i was not in the script i was just directing the film or producing it um and
When I was talking about the project to other producers or channels and people were so intrigued and they were like, how did you find her? And why are you so interested in this topic? And how come you know so much about the new age? We don't know that much about it. And I was like, yeah, well, you know, I was actually a believer. And they were like, oh, how interesting. And so in the end, after the two first versions of the script, I thought, okay, maybe I should be in the film.
I think it's a very good idea because we have you and I very different journeys. I was in France during those 15 years of belief and you were in Canada and around the world. And we come from very different backgrounds and we actually believed in two different versions of the many versions of the New Age beliefs. The buffet of it, yeah. I think it's very interesting for the audience to see that yes, you have a very astonishing, outstanding story but even more banal.
uh stories such as mine because i was not a leader in any way i was just a follower i was just a believer anybody can fall into those beliefs as much as anybody can become follower of a sect of a cult. I think, you know, now I'm more at ease talking about this. Good, I'm proud of you. I'm fine. I think, you know, I made a mistake and I went very far into this.
But I'm like you. I think it's important that people know. I think it's good also to show that yes, we can make mistakes. It doesn't mean we're stupid. I mean, the belief can be stupid. The person is not necessarily, you know, because we're influenced because there are always good reasons. There are always reasons why we fall into those things. For me, it was because I was in... of the truth you know with a big T and
I was ready to anything to find the truth and now I know that no, I'm not gonna find the truth It's unreachable and I'm fine with it. There are many things I don't know. There are many things I will never know And I don't know what's after death. I don't know what's before death. I actually now I don't care. That's very strange because I was so far into the beliefs. And now I'm so cool about it. I'm just like... okay that's fine you know I don't know and it's fine you know
And now like with you promoting the film, you're having other spiritual people come to you that like are convinced they want to tell you about like real spirituality. Yes. And so what can we say to these people? How do we get them to understand?
understand that we're actually talking about them as well like oh this guru this teacher this is the one you need to pay attention to and then you said you looked at it and it's just the same thing same song yes as everyone else is saying I think your journey is so particular that some people just don't see that they could be like you, they could belong to the same way of thinking.
And so that's also why in the film my testimonial or the testimonial of Kelly for example, who you meet in the film and you interview, who is a former follower of yours, I think those testimonials... those side testimonials because you are the main character are very important so that people understand that it's not just a crazy thing that happened to some girl
somewhere far from their home I would say because French people see you as a you know a North American person with a different culture in a way but showing them that more banal stories actually led to the same mess, personal mess, I think it's very important. So I think this is going to be a nice way to make people understand that it's common.
that so many people believe in those things and it's not that you were in the wrong bad spirituality or false spirituality it's just that this kind of spirituality is leading to always the same patterns spirituality in general basically they all lead to the same patterns even the people we interviewed many you know different people that were spiritual they have their different ways of coming to it but it's always again the same thing
Yes, I would say spirituality, religion, it's always based on the fact that you think you're on the right side, you have the truth or you can reach this truth. thanks to guides or thanks to masters or thanks to praying or doing this or that this ritual this following this dogma there's always bad guys yes there's always some reward at the end there's always some work to get to some goal You're not good enough, you have to do more.
so then we're also going to be we just finished filming in canada we did a week of filming and it was really fun um and now if all goes well we're gonna film also in europe and then we'll look for other examples as well so people of France can see you see it's happening there as well not just to you but other people as well as we build our case on this and then also Indonesia Bali where I had my experiences as well so yes in france it's quite interesting actually because i
I try to find nice sequences for you to be filmed in France and there's a specificity in France because of our history. In certain regions, sorcery is quite... you know, part of our history. And it's interesting to see how the new age, which is something quite new, I mean, it's around 100 years old.
yeah many people don't know about it but it's actually started in north america in the us at the end of the 19th century so it's not that recent it's not linked to the hippies the hippies is one stage one step in the history of the new age but the word new age was invented and it was used in a book at the end of the 19th century in the us and
positive thinking and the law of attraction too so it's very it's quite old but it's less old than sorcery for example and what's nice for me as a as a director was to find that in france the new age is adapting to the places where it's spreading and so it's like a virus you know it's adapting to the animals it's getting on yeah and uh and and in france we are quite attacked
to our traditions and and some kind of uh you know we have juridism juridism we have a kind of it's a sort of shamanism linked to uh linked to nature and so French people are through the new age are going back to those roots that were kind of forgotten since the 70s I would say and 1970s and and so they are saying yeah we're going back to the ancient wisdom and the witches
and you know the druidism and stuff like this so it's very interesting to see how those beliefs adapt you know people want are interested in the law of attraction they want to think that they're thinking is actually creating their reality but then they have to make it match with their culture and so in france we're going to go together to places you know old stones from
pre-historical era and how people link it to the new age whereas the new age is actually an ideology that was created an invention yes at the end of the 19th century so I think this is Amazing. I think it's very interesting. To be able to show that. What are we trying to say in the film? Would you say that people need to discard their spirituality or are we just trying to caution people about...
Being so extreme with it letting it think for them because I know my idea of what I want to say I just want to know if it's on the same par because like people might take it as oh We're we're poo-pooing spirituality as a whole right. We're not attacking it per se. We just want to be more critical with it because we've seen all the problems that can come from it and the dangers too.
Yes, I think human history is made of beliefs and even our daily lives, we are all believing in something. I believe that my car is going to... gonna start when I turn the key I'm not gonna check the engine each time I'm starting the car so that's a you know that's a belief that is not spiritual but I mean humans are made to believe because we can't
question everything all the time so that's okay and we're not trying to say we don't we don't need beliefs or we shouldn't have beliefs with this film what I want is it's the same as with the podcast I just I think it's so important that we question the way we think, our mindsets. And questioning the new age is one way of actually questioning so many other things. And religion. other spiritualities just because if we
Just take for granted that one dogma, one ritual is going to save our lives. At some point it's going to create a problem in our lives. If we focus on this or just rely on this, we don't make our own decisions anymore. And this is dangerous. Particularly when it starts contradicting itself, right? And we stop psychologically evolving.
Yes, exactly. We're fixed on something. We think it's the truth and we want to think or we want to reach it and then we're kind of mentally impaired because we just... go this line and not any other line and and then we I think we're in jail ourselves.
in this way so that's that's the main thing i think and then if someone believes in whatever they believe we're not trying to attack or to say it's wrong we're just saying okay Anybody can believe in God that's there's no problem for example, then if it has consequences on your life when you don't make your own decisions anymore and you just rely on a guru or you rely on a priest or you rely on on a book for everything then there's you're gonna suffer and you could you could
avoid this yeah it's the answer to and the end all be all therefore you're not thinking anymore you're not questioning anymore you become like a zombie that's why i like My word for meta-shock is psychological archaeology. And what are you wanting to capture in Bali when we go to Bali?
um what i'd like to shoot there is really you telling us about your change and how it happened and how difficult it was because i knew you were went through depression it was not that easy to let go correct yeah um so I think it's very interesting because Bali is a very religious place actually. I mean, there's a lot of New Age stuff because it's a New Age Mecca, but it's also very religious because the Balinese...
Always you told me I don't know Bali, but you told me but they were doing religious stuff all the time I may get to show you it. You'll see for yourself and then I'll get your thoughts on it directly. Sacrificing animals, music. It's a bizarre, bizarre place. There was one time the temple had a birthday. And it was two weeks of like blasting music into the jungle and to all the places at 11pm until 5am. And then the priest like saying his mantra chant over and over again. It's awful. It's awful.
Two weeks. Two weeks, yeah. That's what they do when a temple has a birthday. And they have many, many temples. With the film, I understand that we have a few partners now? Yes, a few organizations in Europe and in Canada. supporting the film. So there's one in France, there's three in Germany and there's two in England and one in Canada. So in Canada, CFI Canada, you're linked to. In France, this is...
an organization that is trying to explain science, to popularize science. That's a better way to say it. Explain science to people through a magazine, through a website. and now through the film yeah and they're obviously very interested in pseudoscience so that's also why they were interested in in the film with you about you in in germany it's interesting because it's
Our first partner in Germany was an organization linked to protection of the consumers. So it's a German Consumers Federation. And they can see how much people are... Scammed, you know buying crystals or going to healings Reiki stuff and and how they want to inform the consumers that this is not actual medicine, it's not proven to be helping them. So they were very supportive of the film and it's actually thanks to them that we could come.
to to shoot these sequences in vancouver oh that's so cool thank you so much guys yes yes uh there's also um a humanist organization in Germany which is called Jordan and Bruno Foundation. So yeah, we have a skeptics association too. yeah and we're going to be pitching to broadcast the station yes now the film is yeah we're going to create a trailer with the images we shot the the videos we shot here a second trailer a second trailer yeah yes uh specifically
for broadcasting channels and we have good hints. I'm quite happy with what's going on around the film. And festivals? Are we looking into festivals? Not yet. try to have the film shown once it's finished in festivals obviously yes this film is really made for tv So it's going to be broadcast in Europe and hopefully in Canada because I also have a co-producer in Canada, in Quebec. And I also have another co-producer in France and in Belgium.
But we'd like to get one in BC and maybe the States as well. Maybe, yeah. I mean, because this show broadcasts for New York, right? Yes, and it's a big project. I mean, we're going to Europe, we're going to Bali, and there's many things to be filmed, and we want to make a feature film, so, yeah.
Cool. And also your production company is Spirit and Matter, but not in English. Not Spirit and Matter, Mind and Matter. Mind and Matter. Yes. I've been calling it that for such a long time now. Actually, the thing is that in French, the word... Esprit can mean either spirit or mind. So you were not that far. Mind is better though, for what we're trying to do. It's called l'esprit et la matière. All right. Thank you so much, Elizabeth Fethi, for being on the show. Thank you, Jessica.
To know more about the documentary that Jessica and I make together on her personal story and the mien, you can find a link to the official site of the film on metadechoc.fr. Je vous mets aussi un lien vers l'histoire de cette dame qui a décidé de manger du bacon pour la première fois à l'âge de 90 ans. Pour ceux et celles qui sont curieux de m'entendre parler davantage de mes anciennes croyances et de ce qui me motive aujourd'hui,
J'ai rassemblé d'autres de mes interventions publiques dans une playlist du nom de Extra ! sur la chaîne YouTube de MetaChoc. Merci à tous pour votre fidélité et en particulier à ceux qui contribuent financièrement pour que ce podcast puisse croître et embellir. Si vous aussi vous voulez apporter votre soutien à MetaChoc et son ton désormais légendaire, Dans la prochaine émission, je vous ferai entrer dans les arcanes du mentalisme.
Cet art qui s'amuse à manipuler allègrement nos si vulnérables esprits humains. D'ici là, prenez le temps d'observer la manière dont vous pensez et de la questionner. You can't imagine what you think.