Ep 304 - Facing Uncomfortable Truths with Yeva Nersisyan

All right, this is Steve with Macro N Cheese. My guest today is Yeva Nersisyan. She has been on here several times before. And she is one of my favorites, because when we talk, we understand class and we understand the working class, and we understand the way the working class has been left behind. And we understand the economics profession has not done the working class any favors by talking about the greatest economy ever, and things like that.

And as we've seen the election results, it's quite clear that that selling point of the greatest economy ever kind of missed the mark with working class people. And in a landslide, the Democrat just got swept off the map like, it wasn't even a contest. Yeva is an associate professor and economics department chair at Franklin and Marshall College here in the great state of Pennsylvania. And without further ado, I bring on my guest. Yeva, welcome to the show. Thank you.

Happy to be here, as always. am so happy to have you. It is so nice to talk to people who get it and people who I genuinely believe want the best for everyone. And you are right up there. Evertime we've had you on, including the Medicare For Al panels, you have been absolutely amazing. So thank you, so much, for doing this. Thank you for saying that. Well, it's true. It is true. I mean, I do like to compliment my guests when it's appropriate, but it is true.

And I want people to know that people like you exist. That everybody is not overselling the economy, that people are talking about these things in a very real way for people. And it's a dialectical thing, right? It depends on whose perspective you're looking at it from. If you're looking at it from an investor, you know, all the rate hikes and some of the policies really helped you out. Help Wall street out.

I mean, I've never seen Democrats more excited to show us the results, how great Wall Street's doing. It's like, wait a minute, hold on. What happened to the working class? What happened to unions? What happened to all these people that you count on to get you elected? And it's like, oh, yeah, them. Yeah. We're not worried. We don't need them. We'll go after Dick Cheney. We'll go after Liz Cheney We'll pull the Ronald Reagan Cabinet back together again for us.

And obvious, that fell flat on its face. Conservatism is a cancer for the left, and hopefully we can find some radiation and get rid of it.

That said, what's going on with this economy? I mean, obviously there's a history there, and I want to get into that with you. But what do you think were the key economic points that kind of decided this election? Yeah, if we think about the short term, obviously inflation is a big one, especially prices of food going up. Home prices is another big one. And home price increases aren't fully captured in the inflation index that we look at, right?

In many parts of the country, home prices have gone up, I don't know, 20%, you know maybe more. So that's not going to be captured in your inflation. And they have kept going up. So the average home is pretty much out of reach for the American who makes the average income. Pretty much, that's where we're at. And if you add to that the higher interest rates, which were used to fight inflation.

So the problem was inflation, which was bad for working people, and then you add to that the solution, which is raise interest rates, which is also bad for people. So we're going to solve one problem by creating another problem, right?

So anybody who wanted to even become a homeowner, right, that was completely out of reach because of high interest rates, high prices, and therefore how much money you even needed to put as a down payment, even if you could afford that, you know, monthly mortgage payment. So the way home prices were going up, there was no way you could save your way out of that, right? Because if you need 20%, or something like that, to buy a home, then home prices are going up.

Then that's a moving target, right? B the way I see it is that this goes beyond the Biden administration. Because for all of its faults, I think the Biden administration did more than Obama did; than Bill Clinton had done. Because Bill Clinton did a lot of things that were definitely not good for working people, the average person, and that's well known, right? So Bill Clinton dismantled a lot of the New Deal. For example, Obama's presidency was characterized by doing nothing, right?

So it was that period when a lot could have been done and nothing was really done. And then compared to that, Biden did a much bigger stimulus. He did the infrastructure bill, the IRA, and so on. You know, the FTC chair, Lina Khan, who was going after monopolies, the NLRB people, he appointed who were better than previous people. Despite all the issues with crashing the railroad strikes. That should not be forgotten. But people do want to forget that, right?

Biden did a lot more than Clinton and Obama. But I think it's too little too late. And I think I might have said that when we were speaking last time, which was before the election. Right before the summer, before Biden even dropped out. So I think it's too little, too late. Once working class people turn away from the Democratic Party, I think it's going to be very difficult to bring them back.

And with every election lost, the Democrats, rather than saying we got to go back to our New Deal roots, right, because that was a winning strategy for us, instead they just keep moving further and further to the right. At least on economic issues. And when it comes to economics, there is no alternative to class-based analysis. That's one thing that I think progressives, the Left, right? That's one thing that we should all agree on.

Hopefully that there is no alternative to class analysis and class-based politics. import-focusedstratification of voters in terms of their purchasing power, their ability to survive a lapse in employment, their ability to survive a medical emergency, et cetera, I think is a real gaping wound in the American society. I know myself, I am obviously left of most of the MMT community. I think of it like I've been on the high side of things. I've lived la vida loco for a little while.

Nothing like some, but I did pretty well. But then, tragedy struck and it took 20 years for me to get to a point where I wasn't literally looking out the window wondering if I was going to lose my home or not. So I understand from both ends. And you know, I am educated and I do have what would be considered a managerial-style job. So I am both working-class and managerial-class at some level.

So I understand the dilemma that many face that have 401(k)s that are invested in the retirement programs. And they see the stock market go up, they see the bond yields go up because of the interest rate hikes, and so forth. And you know, to them that's a great economy. And I saw moments of that where it's like, oh, okay, but that is kind of a standard Reagan-style economy. That was the trickle-down that Reagan talks so much about. And obviously it's supply-side, and so forth.

But we witness breaks in the supply chain that created, you know, at least initially, a lot of these problems. And then as we flash forward. We're beginning to see kind of that multipolarity of the world that a lot of the world, the Global south, et cetera, we depend on to make our goods and services in this country, as an empire and an import-focused country. We're looking at a whole new where maybetheGlobalSouth istiredofmaking ourcheap goodsandservices.Maybe

Chinaislookingtobecomemoreequal.Andothersaresaying, we'redonewithyoupredatingupon us.AndyouneverseenitmoreevidentthanwithintheUNastheyvotedonthingslikeGazaandstuff.Therestoftheworldis sayingwe gottoendthisandtheUS isthereblocking it.Sothere's is saying, we got to end this. And the US is there ofthestuffthatwe useinthis country, we importit.Andthatmeanswe'rereliantonother countries. stuff that we use in this country. We import it. Whatdoyouseeas we're reliant on other countries.

We stop building things. We stop doing a lot of this stuff. thinkis the nextstep?Becausethey'redemonizingChinastill.Why?BecauseChina'soutpacing us technology-wise. China,insteadofbuilding weaponsofwar is the next step? Because they're demonizing China, ofhome. It's areally,reallybaddeal.I'm curiousastowhatyour thoughtsareonthewaytheUSIs goingto tryand workitout.

non-militarizedGeopoliticallyspeaking,I'm reallynotsurewhat'sgoing tohappeninterms of, perhaps, there will be some conciliation with Russia and then the attention will be all on China as the new front for some kind of fight. So that's all possible. But we need China. But for now, China also needs us. Because we are their source of demand and they're not at a point where they can rely on their domestic demand.

So they are going to continue to rely on imported demand, which, basically, means exporting goods to us. So I think on that front - unless with the tariffs and so on, right, which is also possible - then China is going to continue to sell to us. Now, one thing I would say on the global dimension is that the Trump presidency actually presents an opportunity for all the countries who want to, sort of, break away and go their own way, in some sense.

I was planning to write this piece on Europe, on how they're now fretting over what are we going to do - Trump is elected, right? And of course the instinct is we got to militarize. We got to spend on the military, right? Forget about everything else. We've been in austerity-mode for 20 years, to the point where our GDP per capita has really flatlined. But now we're going to militarize, we're going to spend, and so on.

Well, instead they should actually try to work with China and try to build their economy in a non-militarized way. And tolive inpeace inawaywith the countriesthatareon thesamecontinentasthem.AndtheTrumppresidency withitsisolationistforeignpolicy,ifthatmaterializes,obviously wedon'tknowthatyet obviously we don't know that yet because all the promises made - promises not Right, right. non-interventionistthatgives,atleast,themanopportunitytostopbeingthe US'slapdog,right,forEuropeans,for example.

And for China, if we do impose the tariffs, then the Chinese ruling class, because they also have a ruling class, right,they will have then to make a decision. Are they going to allow their domestic wages to grow to allow them to rely domestically on their own demand? Or are they not going to do it?

And I don't really know the answer to that question about China, but the same is true about the global South to the extent that they can try to somehow decouple from the US and use the Trump presidency with its promises of being non-interventionist right. Now, as far future manufacturingintheUnitedStatesgoes,Iappreciatethe problemoflosingmanufacturingjobs.Ithinkwhathas beendonetothe

industrialMidwestisadisgrace.Whathas beenallowedtohappenthereisadisgraceandweareobviouslyreapingtheresultsofthat rightnowprettymuchwiththeClinton administration'spolicieswhichled totheloss ofjobsinthoseareas. NAFTA [North American Free Trade Agreement}and CAFTA [Central America Free Trade Agreement], yeah. working-classYeah. AndofcoursetheDemocratsolutionis,well, pack up and leave, pretty much. Right? That's as good as they're going to do.

We're not going to try to create jobs here where people are. Instead the solution is - well, you just go. You retrain. You move, right? You go somewhere else. That's been, sort of, the message, right, that we don't really have anything to offer you in a sense. And instead of these voters, they're going to try to get some of the more affluent, you know, center Republican kind of conservative voters. Well, that strategy clearly did not work out very well for them.

But even if you leave the politics aside, right, we're talking about people here. And so, you know, MMT and the solution of lik the job guarantee, right - that you create jobs where people are - you don't need to retrain them. If you look around in any developed country, there is so much that still has to be done. There is so many needs that go unmet, right? You can always find jobs for people to do. And the question then is, how do you create good jobs, right?

Because good jobs don't necessarily have to be manufacturing jobs. So manufacturing - keeping it here - I don't know if that should necessarily be the goal. The goal should be how do we create good jobs, right? Jobs where people can have a very good standard of living and they don't need to have a bachelor's degree for it, right? Something like that.

And Germany is facing the same problem right now because they're quickly deindustrializing, or they have to because they can no longer rely on the cheap Russian natural gas. And so they may go through what the US went in the span of 10 years or so. They may go through it in a matter of just a few years, right? So I don't know if we need to cling to manufacturing jobs, necessarily. But instead, we need to demand good jobs for the average workingclasspersonwhichallowsthem

adecentstandardofliving.Andtheotherthing,though, isthat whatwesawwiththesemiconductors,right,therearecertain right? There couldsayare importantforthenation.That's whereyoudefinitelydon'twanttogiveupyourmanufacturing. Andnow,for instance,wedothatwiththeweaponry,right? Likethat'sthe lastremainingmanufacturingjobsintheUnitedStates.Sobecauseweconsiderthatofnationalsecurityimportance,right.And thereforewekeepthosejobsstillhere.There areother importance, right, and therefore youcouldsayarevery

important.Andsothe CHIPSact, which Trumphas vowedhe'sgoingtorepeal,Ithinkthatwasarelativelygooddevelopment.But again,allofthat, whenyoudo itand thegoalisn'ttoimprove people'slivingstandards,that'sproblematic,right? Sothatdefinitelyshouldbeatthetop of theconcerns.Thathasn'tbeenforalongtime.Andagain, weareseeingtheresultsofthatnow. trillion-dollarstreets,peoplethatwereantiDemocraticbutstillwillingtogiveitashot.Youknow, peoplethatwerenotwillingtovoteat

allormaybehadneverbeenpoliticallyactiveintheirlives,andtheyweremotivatedtomove.Theyweretheworkingclass.Theywereregularpeople.Therewereacademics.Itwasamixofraces,itwasamixofgenders,itwasamixofearningpotential.Youknow,therewasalotofpeoplethatgenuinelylikedthesoundofwhatBerniesaid.Andoneofthebigthingsthatcameoutofthat,whichtheMMTcommunityclearlyglommedonto,wastheGreenNew Deal.AndtheGreenNewDealwassomethingthatwe,hereatRealProgressives,spendaninordinateamountoftimebothexplaining,getting

experts...Youknow,wehadFadhel,comeon.WehadRandy.WehadBillMitchell.WehadWarren.Wehadeverybody.Rohanand that we, here at Real Progressives, spend an inordinate amount of time both explaining, getting experts . . . You know, we had Fadhel [Kaboub], come on. We had Randy [Wray]. We had Bill Mitchell. We had Warren [Mosler]. We had everybody. Rohan[Grey] and yourself. And we had so many people come on.

Fadhel with his layer cake of the Green New Deal, you know, Bob Hockett as well, who had written a book about this. And as soon as Biden took office in 2020, it was done. It was all Build Back Better. I mean, Nancy Pelosi called it that "green dream," or whatever. And Hillary Clinton had called it pie in the sky. So the Democratic hoi polloi poo-pooed on it. And I remember the transition team from the Bernie team to the Biden team.

And I knew that Stephanie was there, Sarah Nelson was there, Derek Hamilton was there, et cetera. What came out of it, there was no job guarantee. There was no Green New Deal. There was talk of raising the minimum wage. There was talk of $2,000 checks. There was talk of all sorts of stuff of which little to none of it came to pass. And we can blame Manchin and Sinema, we can blame the parliamentarian, you know, we can blame onions for breakfast.

I mean, we InstituteatBardhad putoutapaper,Ibelieve Stephaniehadgoneonit.ScottFullwiler,Ithink,heavily.Iplandidn'tleveragetheEducationact,thatleveragedtheemergencypowersofthepandemic.Anditwaslike,well,nowonderitfell.Becauseifhewouldhaveusedtheproperchannel,hecouldhavewipedouteveryone'sstudentdebtwithoutevenapologizing.it.ScottFullwiler,Ithink,Pavlina.Idon'tknowwhoallwroteonthe paper,I don'thaveitinfront ofme,butthatpaperwaswidelycirculated.Iknow I think, Pavlina [Tcherneva].

I don't andtheyhadtalkedabout this.Biden's plandidn't leveragethe EducationActshirtswithGreenNewDealthateverybodyintheMMTcommunitywasbuyingandselling,itjustwonderitfell.Becauseifhe wouldhaveusedtheproperchannel,he couldhave wipedout everyone'sstudentdebtwithoutevenapologizing.But hedidn't.Hechose notto.AndIwillneverunder ...well,actually,IthinkI dounderstandit, butthatwouldrufflesome

feathersformetoexplainmytheoryofdidn'tbuildmomentumforaGreenNewDealtocarryusthrough.Therehadworkedfortoelevate-asoonasBidensaid,nope,I'mgoingwithBuildBackBetter,allthegreenshirtswithGreenNewDealthateverybody intheMMTcommunitywasbuyingand

selling,itjustshutdown.Justdone.Itwaslikelockstep.Itwaslikeeverybodyturnedthat - as soon as Biden said, nope, I'm going with Build Back Better, all the green shirts with Green New Deal that everybody in the MMT community was buying and selling, it just shut down. Just done. It was like lockstep. It was like everybody turned that off and started just carrying the company water. And that bothered me tremendously. Because for the last four years, people like Bob Hockett and

jail.WegottagetridofDontheCon.Andtheyhad alltheirnicknameslikeDonaldTrumphadnicknames Trump the whole time. During Trump,it was nothing but Trump. They didn't build momentum for a Green New Deal to carry us through. There was no positive vision of tomorrow. It was just, we gotta get Trump. We gotta take him to dollarbunkersto wadethroughclimatecollapse.Buthelpmeunderstandthat.Ofallthepolicysetsoutthere,thatlow.,

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?N,a,notdone15$,,,bL ive[IRA]

Sure. ?goodthat wewanttorevampourinfrastructure.It'sgoodthatwewantto make investmentsingreenenergyand so on,althoughit'sprobably goingtobetoolittletoolatethere, too.Butthesearenotthekindsofthings thatleadtoimprovement inpeople'sdaily lives.And at thetime,raisingtheminimumwage,ontheother hand,wouldhavemadeabigdifference.Andtheargumentwasthat,well,ifweraisetheminimum wage,thenpricesaregoingtogoup.Well,guesswhat? priceswentup,anyway.And nowyouhadn'traisedthe minimumwage and

youhadtheinflationproblemtodealwith,right.How doyouwinonthat kindof aneconomicresult?You don't. Yeah. You know, I go back to the end of The Trump Part 1 presidency and the absolute pressure that was there to get rid of him because of COVID and other things, obviously, too. But I think Covid is what really tipped the scale on that one. I agree. ?hadtheBidenadministrationbasicallyfoldup likeacheaptentshortlythereafterandbasically

say-hey,we'reoutofCOVID.AndtheyletalltheCOVIDpaymentsstop.Theyliterallyturnedoffalltheinputsthatlittlepeoplehadandthatwastheendbecausetheythoughtthatthatwascreatinginflation.ButfolkslikeIsabellaWeberandyourself-evenIrememberlasttimewetalkedaboutinflationherewith youinapreviousepisode.AlotofthisstuffisnotlikesomeGod-breathedmarket-driventhing.Thisispeopleinsmokyroomsmaking decisionstojackpricesupandtoexpand

theirprofitmargin.Andtherearesignalsthatnotonlythemediagives-hey,they'reprintingmoney.Instantlytheirlibertarianantennagoesupandit'slike-oh,printingmoney,thatmeansinflation.Sotheywereableto capitalizeonthosemarketsignalsandtheignoranceofthepublic.Imean,theGuardianhadagreatarticlethatshowedhowmanybusinesseshadjackeduptheir

priceslikeathousandpercentprofitincreaseduringCOVID.Ridiculousgougingthatoccurredandopportunism.TheUSGovernment,whohasinfinitepowertoregulatebusinessandregulatepricingthroughtheFed,orotherthings,insteadoptedtoraiseinterestrates.LarrySummerstalkingaboutweneedtolay10,000peopleoffor10millionpeopleoff,orwhatever.Andit'slikethisisthesumtotalofthewaytheythoughtthroughtheproblem.It'sfundamentallyinsanetomethatwehavemadesolittleprogress.Ifthere'sevenarealdemocracytheretodefend.Ifthey'reeveneveryday.Andthey'rehearingKamalasaying,I'mnotchangingmypolicy,I'mgoingtokeepthefunnelflowing.I'mgoingtokeepshippingliterallythetonedeafadministrationandmanyeliteDemocratsbasicallytoldthemgoscrewthemselves.AndIthinkthattheyfigureditoutafterwards.Whatareyourthoughtsonthat?KindofIdon'thearyouformofgovernance.k--

?AndIthink

theelection results, iftheywereclose, Ithinkthenyou could pointtoonefactororanother.Maybethistippedtheelection resultsinthisstateandthatistheexplanationforthatstate.ButI thinkgiventhekindof resultswesaw,includingthepopularvote,Ithinkthatthisis just peoplesayingwearenothappywith thestateof affairs,right.Idon'tthinkthereislikeoneortworeasonsyoucanpointto.Ithinkit'sjust ageneraldiscontentwiththe stateofthe economy.Imean,maybeit'sbecauseI'm aneconomist,butIthinkallofitcomesdownto

theeconomy.BillClinton knewit. Right.TheDemocrats knowit.It'sjustthatthesolutionswould requireustomakechangestothekindofeconomywe knew it, right? The Democrats know it. It's just usto makechangesto kindofeconomy we have.So wearejustgoing toignoreandnotthinkabout it.Likeclimatewasn't mentionedRight.Atall inthiselection?,r,

a.

Nope. ?Europethey'renot talkingaboutclimateeither,right?That'sdone.Like wedid theIRA, right.Wedidtheinfrastructurebill.That'sit.We'vesolvedtheclimatetaxcredit,whichhonestlyIneverthoughtthatwasagoodsolutiontobeginwith.,, TC Agreed. ? think you have to change the transportation thing. You have to create good public transportation. You look at what China has done with its railroad network and you're like, this is doable, right.

You can do it in 10 years - the whole country is covered in high speed rail. How can we not do it? Of coursewecan.Sowejustchoose notto. But Ithinkwhat yousaidearlier,peopleweregettingthesechecksandthenitstopped.I thinkthatwasalsoafactorbecausepeoplefeltlike,oh,somethinggoodispossible.LikeI oh, something good is possible. Like I could be getting those $300 per themanymore.Right. It'slikeyou see abetter not getting them anymore, right. pulledout ofyouwhen

thepaymentsstop.Sothat'swhyIwassayingthatiftheyhadprioritizedthosekindsofpolicies,Ithink we wouldbeina differentsituationnowonthequestionofthefiscalpolicyandinflationand soon,alotoftimes be in a different situation now. On the question of the fiscal allthe TPP loans?,ri ght ?{ P Right. ?themillionsandmillionsthatsomepeoplegot,right.Nottherestofus. Yeah.

?go?Likeeveninstatesandplaceswheretherewerenolockdowns,right?Then youlookatitand,youknow-hereiswhereyou'retornas aprogressiveandasan MMTer- youwanttotellpeoplethat thegovernment works, it cando goodthings,andsoon.Andhereyouhavethiskindofprogram,whichisridiculousthestudentloan debtisnotgettingforgivenatthesametojustclaimwhateverandthengetitall

excused.Whilethestudentloandebtisnotgettingforgivenatthesametime,right.Whichalso,bytheway,couldhavebeendone.Andweallknowthatit'snotanaffordabilityquestion.AndIagreewithyouranalysisofwhythatdidnotsucceed.Ithinkatsomepointyouhavetosay,are ?O--,r [th e]pwer eth ebig things that . .. . complexHisplanwasgenocidewillfundthe Military Industrialcomple.Thatwasit. ?Like, Like, what was Kamala Harris' right.And therewasaNewYork Times pieceabouthowshe'san incrementalist. I'mlike,really?Soinworse... .

Worse. Oh my God. Let me interject. This is so funny. There was an op-ed, I think it did come out of the Washington Times, that said Kamala Harris doesn't need policy to win the election. Yeah. That is literally the vote blue sycophant. The arrogance of this blue wave mindset. It's unbearable. You are listening to Macro and Cheese, a podcast by Real Progressives. We are a 501c3 nonprofit organization. All donations are tax deductible.

Please consider becoming a monthly donor on Patreon, Substack, or our website realprogressives.org. Now, back to the podcast. And I want to add to this because you and I both are in the great state of Pennsylvania, which is a very interesting state, to say the least, it's very purple. And it's got some interesting Left kind of things. I think it's like Pittsburgh and Philadelphia and then Pennsyltucky. It's a very interesting state.

But SEPTA, and I want to build on this because I think this is very important as an MMT currency issuer - currency user framework, which is going to show the economy at a different level. You know, SEPTA has been screaming for a year - if we don't find a way to fix the fiscal problems of the state, we're going to have to jack rates up for mass transit. Which is important for people without money and people that have to go long distances. It's also routes,okay?

Andthisideaiswhathappenswhenyoucutthespigotoff right? A little bit. anyway. Well, issuerside-andit creepsdown,slowlybutsurely, intostatesandmunicipalities.Whichisone ofthekeyreasonswhyI,andmany other MMTers,wererailinghardcore,includingyourself.WedidaMedicareforAllpaneldiscussionafewyearsbackwherealotofthatstimulushasbeencutoff..W,- - Right. And you're seeing that in the services, and we're going to get to a point of austerity.

And once they start cutting services, that concept of having one man's spending be another person's income. Whe it dries up, it dries up. And that means other people stop spending because they've got to pinch more pennies. Prices have gone up in real terms. My mortgage has gone up a hundred dollars a month because of increases in taxes and other inflationary aspects within my local region. In this area, my electric bill has shot up more than $150 a month.

In this area, my cost of gasoline has shot through the roof and my food cost. Overall. We did a minor calculation with student loans kicking back in at $600 a month. And out of nowhere you could say that I am paying close to twelve hundred dollars a month more to live now than I did before. The student loan payments were turned back on at the end of September, beginning of October. That is real hardcore stuff.

I don't know how many people can just suddenly absorb $1,000 worth of new spending being put on them. I'm not doing a great job of keeping up with it, to be honest with you, but I'm just one person that happened to millions upon millions of people. And the homeless rate has shot through the roof. I mean, California Governor Newsom basically was giddy about outlawing homelessness in California, went crazy sweeping away the homeless encampments, you name it.

I mean, there's no allies in this, but this economy is getting crueler and crueler. And now that we've got Trump in there, he's got Elon Musk in there trying to find ways to cut spending on top of everything else. And Elon Musk receives $9 billion a year in federal subsidies, I believe. It's not a year, it's in total $9 billion for SpaceX and for Tesla. Amazing. It's shocking. So why don't we start trimming right there? Right?

Yeah. Talk to me about the trickle down effect, the impact of states and municipalities, retirement funds, all that stuff that comes when you cut off the federal spigot. Right. Yeah. And you're right that one of the good things that we did during the COVID

stimulus was giving money to state and local governments, which is something we don't usually do enough of. If you look at the numbers, the state and local governments actually become a recessionary force in times of crisis and recessions because their tax revenues decrease. Like they're relying on sales tax and state income taxes, and stuff like that. So those go down and then they start cutting services and they start cutting spending.

And like you said, somebody's spending [is] someone else's income, right? If they have to lay off workers, like I don't know, firefighters, policemen and so on and so forth. If they have to lay them off, then these people aren't earning the wages and now they cannot spend. And then it goes on and on. For the first time in a long time, we actually gave the state and local government a lot of money during the federal stimulus payments, both under Trump and under Biden.

And like you said, that has kept them afloat. But if that tide turns and they have to cut spending, right, or raise prices afterthe2020election.Andofcourse,they'renotgoingtolearnthelessons after2024.So Ithink they'renotgoingto be able towin.However,IthinkRamaswamycannotwin,butTrumpcanloseifthey actuallydogoaheadwiththeausteritystuff,right?Soifthe ElonMusk,VivekRamaswamyaus.Y,[

pri ce]

Grooming. Yeah. My kids were asking me questions, who's Kamala Harris? And who's, I don't know, [US Senate candidate] Dave McCormick? And so one of the ads, which I heard because the TV was on, like I'm going to clamp down on price gouging or something like that. And I'm thinking, aren't you the vice president right now? Where were you two years ago when you actually needed to clamp down on price gouging? Hello.

,ormore.We'vemostlyfocusedonunemployment,right?Soinflationsortof hasbeenthisthingthat'sbeenputonthebackburner.Soinaway,weweren'tprepared,Iguessyoucouldonthebackburner. left progressive economists, because we haven't really been worried about inflation for the past whatever, 20 years or more, we've mostly focused on unemployment, right? So inflation sort of has been this thing that's been put on the back burner.

So in a way, we weren't prepared; I guess you could say they weren't prepared to offer solutions that could be quickly implemented, right? Anything that you did was about, I don't know, increasing the supply, but that was going to take time, right? Things like that. Like, even if you did do things like Build Back Better, right? Transition to green abouthowtodomonetarypolicy.Whenweallknowthatof meanwhile you need the fossil fuels and so on and so forth, right? Like, what do you do about that?

I mean, partly it's because there is not a lot of funding for thinking about industrial planning. For thinking about how to do fiscal policy in a good way, right? It's just a small group of economists, like the MMTers and some others, who just worry about these issues. While at the same time, you have all these researchers and all this money about how to do monetary policy when we all know that monetary policy is completely ineffective when it comes to addressing unemployment.

It's ineffective when it comes to, you know, addressing inflation, even though obviously the Fed is taking credit for the reduced inflation, and so on. But we don't have the same kind of efforts and funding towards, like, how do you do fiscal policy in a way that you don't increase prices? Like MMT has obviously the Job Guarantee as an aLJG,a-,ra, u.T ,, ,ahellofadrug, isn'tit?Well,listen,there isacomedianandprogressiveactivist who Ifollow.SometimesI'm reallyfeeling hervibeandothertimes

I'mlike,whatareyousaying?Hername'sKateWillett,andshe'sa comedianand she'sreally goodonmostthings.I thinkshe's apartofDSAandIthinkalotoftheMMTcrowdfollowsher,aswell.ButsheputsomethinguponTwitter,X, whatever,theotherdaythatIthinkisworthdiscussing. BecauseIseeeconomists,youknow,inorder tobepartofadministrationsthey seemtohavetocurry favoramongsttheloyal.Andthatcreates somesort of warpedthinking,Ithink,unfortunately,

defendingtheindefensibleofconservativeDemocratsinsteadofthinkingabouttheworkingclasspeople,whichisadestroyerofallthingsgood.ButwhatKatesays is this,andIwanttogetyour opinion on thisbecauseIthinkit'sgoing toimpactthewaywesee economicsandthedifferentnarratives thatmaycomeoutofthedifferentcamps.Andwhat she said was,Ithink it's possibletheliberalleftcoalitionthatmakes itpossible toelectDemshasbeenbroken,permanently.Asclimatechange getsworseandwarsaccelerate, the numberof peoplewho willwantreal

changewillincrease.Resist-libs,AKAthewhatweoftentimes,forgive me,callshit-libs,youknowtheywillpreferfascismtopeace andredistribution.The coalitionforfascismisgoingtoincludemoreandmore liberalsandtheleftwillhavetobuildquiteabitto offsetit.The peoplewhothink wearedoingNewsom-Pete2028don'tgetthe moment.IthinkGazademonstratedthat centristswantalevel ofkillingwhichmakestherestof usupset. TheyimagineBiden 2028 buttoget pastall thenewGOP gerrymanderingandstateelection,asshesays,youneed60%oftheUSto

votePete.And there'snoway.And thefollow upfrommyweight class asKarenisresist-libswillpreferfascism.AndIagree. Imean,I'veseenthesilenceinthefaceofagenocide.I'veseenthat.Sowhenyouthinkabout

creating the new GOP gerrymandering and state election fuckery, MMThad previouslyandI,hopefullywill againputoutthereandbefrontandcenterof but whenyouthinkabout thoseboldpolicies,the coalitionisfracturingbecausetheleft has hadenough. Iknow Iwon'tvoteDemocratagaininthe rest of mylife.IvotedJillSteinthispastelectionandIdoit ahundredtimesoveragain. Ratherthan vote forsomebodythat bondedwithDickCheney, Iwon'tdoit.Not reallytooconcerned about who has aproblemwith iteither. center of. But when you

right?Idon'tbelievethat.Butyeah, sure,it'sademocracy.Inother words,I the Left has acitizentovoteforwhoeverthehell Iwanttovotefor,evenif itdoesn'tbearany fruit.Andthiskindofcoalition thatyouneed, I'd do it a hundred times over, again. source thevotes. Well,thevotesaregoingtobehard pressedbecause thecentrists and thepeoplethatwerepartofthe who has a problem with it, either. Because it's a democracy, right? goingto sufferbecause thatcoalitionhasbeen

shattered.Whatareyour thoughts onbeingabletogetprogressiveeconomicsouttheresothatthelogical, correct answertotheeconomicquestions thatdriveus are frontandcenterinsteadof,you you need - you remember Stephanie said we just have to

--w

?r,rL N Ln snot-nosejustrealquick.So from what I've done, as someone who is not an economist, but works closely with you guys in my activism, you know, I try and take what I know people are fighting for, that won. And I marry that with an understanding of Modern Monetary Theory, both at the state level, the municipal level and the federal level. And I've brought in the full complement of the geopolitical level, as well.

Now, I mean, thank you Fadhel {Kaboub] and [Jason] Hickel and others for educating me there. But at the end of the day, what I'm seeing is a genuine desire. But we keep getting drowned out by shit-lib version of the world that has got Trump derangement-syndrome posts. 400 social media posts in a row of "Donny tiny hands." Yeah, and like silly memes that literally suck the oxygen out of the room.

Now, not only does it suck the oxygen out of the room for left-wing activism, but it really, really creates a hero because anybody that can own, quote unquote, the shit-libs is going to be a hero in the working class mind. Because what they see as shit-lib-mindedness is this kind of woke thought process. Now, mind you, I love the real term "woke." And hey, I'm aware of what's going on. I understand the plight of struggle, right?

But they've weaponized identity politics through a capitalist lens and it leaves a lot to be desired. And people are seeing through that and they're tired of being canceled. They're tired of tiptoeing on eggshells. And there are some people out there giddy to try to be able to say the N-word and stupid crap like that. But aside from that, though, it's the elites are trying to tell us that our way of life is deplorable. That we're just bad. And they're tired of it.

So they see Donald Trump as a hero telling them, hey man, don't let those snot-nose rich kids tell you how it is. And you know, there's something to that. You do want to give the finger to the snotnoserichkidsthataretellingyouhow you how it's going to be. You'd like go poundsand.So go pound sand. So Donald Trump, at some level, hits that kind thatarejusttired ofelites tellingthem how they havetobe,whattheyhaveto do,whotheyhavetolike, be. What have todo to do. Who they have to like.

How they have to youthatthatisthemindset.Andwiththatinmind,whenthesepeople comeoutandtheysaywegottoreduce the deficitandwe gotto cutthedebt andwegottocutthefat outofgovernment,thereisjustnotnearlyenoughpeople thatareout therewillingtodothatpoliticalfight on government - there is ofpeople toeducateandtellthem asan activistandnotwiggleaway andmealymouthit.Because thesefolksdon't,,- it- ?dootherkinds of jobs,right?Like more working

classpeople.That's,I think,partoftheproblem,ofcourse.[yes]AndIwasrecentlylookingatthedataofthebachelor'sdegreepremium -prettymuch,ifyoulookat,say,the earnings ofmen,the median,like weeklyearningsofmenwithahighschooldegreeversusacollegedegree-andthatpremium hasincreased. Likeithas doubles,p,r No, indeed. ?economyseemstobeworking.Andthey'renotnecessarilythepeoplewhoownlikethefactories andthestocks,andsoon.Althoughsomeofthesepeopleprobablyhave that,too.Buttheyareagain,likeworkers,right.If

youthinkaboutit,theyhavetoworkformonies.They'readifferentclassofworkers.Soyou'vehadthissegmentationwhichhasalwaysexistedinthelabormarket,whichhasgottenevenworse.Right.Youhavesomeworkers,they'restillworkers,theyhavetoworktoeven worse,right.--, r Yeah.

?ontv-anwatchalotofmainstreamtv,butoccasionallyI'llseeaclipofpeopletv-butoccasionallyI'llseeaclipofpeoplemakingfunandsaying,oh,peoplevotedforTrump,forHitlerbecausetheeggpriceistoohigh.I'mlike,really?Like,foodisjustsooffensive.Honestly,ifyouthinkaboutit,it'snotjusteggprice,right.Like,foodpricesarehigh.Andifyou'rehardlyscrapingbyandyouhavechildrenandyou'reworriedabouttheirfutureandyouseethatyourlivingstandardsareprobablylowerthanyourparentsandsoon,andyou'renothappyaboutit,youshouldn'tbehappyaboutit.Right.Theliberalswantpeopletojuston,andyou're

nothappyaboutit,youshouldn'tbehappyaboutit.ight.Theliberalsit, right.The liberalswant peopletohavebecausetheycannotchange,it'sclearlygoingto,likeyousaid,destroyallofusatsomepoint.Soit'sreallynotworkingforthe99%or,youknow,90%,whateveryouwanttosay.WAT Right. ?workingalittlebetter foracertainpartofthat99%, right.Andso, youknow,allofthese resultsIthinkcould havebeenpredicted,right? Yes. The 2016 election, the 2024 election, all you had to do is look at the level of economic discontent.

And I think it's hard for people who don't live in that kind of economic situation to actually see that. working-class beforeIletyougo,andIdoappreciateyourtimehereandIknowIalwaysstretchyoujustoutsideofeconomicsalittlebithereand

there,don'tI?Ican'thelpit.It'sjusthowIgo.Butinthisparticularcase,oneofthethingsthatstartedoffwithwhenRoev.Wadewasinjeopardy,andthishassomanylong-reachingeffects,youknow,cancelingstudentdebtgotoverruledbytheSCOTUS.Andwhenyouthink abouttheconceptoftheSupremeCourt-thereweremanypeoplethatwereyellingatJoe

thatwereadvisorsofhispeopleinthatconsultantgroup-thaneedtofillthecourtupsothatyoucanundoallthedamagethatTrumpdidwithallthosefederalappointmentsandsoforth.AndBidensaid,yeah,youneedtostackthecourtyoucourt. You need to fillthecourtupso thatyoucanundoallthe damagethatTrumpdidwithallthosefederal

appointments,andsoforth.AndBidensaid,yeah,youknow,I'mnotgoingtodo that.Andlo andbehold,Roefell and youseethe resultson studentdebt,etcetera.Thisisnot amissthatdidn'thaveananswer.Therewereanswersforbothofthese.Andthey weretold,no,ending thefilibuster, no.Allthedifferent toolsthattheyhad at theirdisposal,the.E I think that, sort of, assumes that they do want to battle. You're right. That's where I was going. Thank you. Right. Like, they don't want to. They're one of the same.

,ofRoe,becausewithoutthat,theystoodnochance.Theyweren'twipedoutinthemidtermelectionsbecauseoftheabortionissue,whichisimportant.And theywerehopingthatitwasgoingtocarrythem,youknow,inthe2024electiontoo.Butitwasn'tenough.Right?,, r That's right. supermajoritybackagaintoObama,right.AndnowwearesoworriedthattheRepublicanshaveasupermajority.I'mlike,Obamahada supermajoritytoo,right?Didn'the? He did nothing with. Yeah, like, what is that? What, what did he do?

Voluntarily took the public option off the table without even any pushback. Right? Like, so when I tell this to people, I say, Obama didn't do anything. And they're like, well, you know, he only had those two years, and after the midterm elections, and so on and so forth. First of all, when were the midterms? 2022? You know, I guess that's when the midterms were. Right. If you are the incumbent party, you don't need to be wiped out.

Like, if people feel like you're doing something, you're not necessarily going to be wiped out. So if people felt like he was doing something good. Like actually cleaning up Wall Street. Yep. ?B, r$ Take a credit card from the People's Republic of China. That'd be unmoral. Exactly. Right. So it's not like he was unwillingly, like, being pushed into those positions. He took those positions willingly. Like, he didn't fight. Yep. So then I, like, I hang it all on his doorstep, you know?

All of the failures. I'm with you.

?of of the many op-eds that are inmyhead,whichI'mprobably not goingtowrite,isthat,like,for theDemocraticParty tostandanychancethey havetoletgoofthismythoftheObamabeing agood president,right. Like, hewas notagoodpresident. That's right. ?electionbasicallysayingthatBidenshouldn'trepeatObama'smistakes.AndIsentittoafriendofminejusttoread.Andshesaid,Ithinkit'sgood,butIdon'tthinkit'severgoing

togetpublishedbecauseObamaisaverybelovedpresident.Iwaslike,what?LikeIdidn't.I.Soa said, I think it's good, but I don't think it's ever going to get published because Obama is a very beloved president. I was like, what? Like I didn't . . . I . . . so I'm... in the r Horrific. It took us 10 years to go back to the unemployment levels that we had before 2017. So like, when Trump was bragging about the economy, like I had this good economy before and Obama is like, well, that was my economy.

And I was thinking to myself, are you going to take credit for all of those 10 years or only the last few when we had the recovery? Like, if that was your economy, then you should take credit for all of those years, right? That's right. With the 10% unemployment and so on. And of course they're not going to take credit for that and they're not going to learn from their mistakes and so on. So, yeah. op-ed I appreciate that. See, this podcast doesn't do glossing over things.

We're willing to punch where punches need to be punched. And I don't want people to walk away from this feeling just comfortable. I want them to really examine the stuff we're seeing. I'm hoping people listen to us, take notes, consider their circumstances, consider the world around them. Because when you read the newspaper, when you read these other things, and when you listen to establishment friendly podcasts, you don't hear any of the truth.

It's all nonstop, you know, they're just stupid for not liking our bad policies, and it's horrifically tone deaf. And I just want to thank you so much for this because the other thing that we do here is we have a website and we have a Substack and we publish people. So if you ever have a wild hair and you want to write an op-ed . . . Sure. class-awarewon'tgetpublished-Youhaveafriendinus.Wewillpublishit and we have asharearmy thatwillmakesureeverybodyreadsit.Soplease,don'tforgetus.Weloveto

publish.So thatgoestoallyou otherMMTersoutthere So that goes to all you other MMTers out there and class-aware, socialist-minded people. We're not interested in Centrists. Stop, folks. Sorry. But we are very much interested in people that understand the glue that holds the working class together from a Left perspective. Because we're not neutral. We are real progressives and we have hopes and dreams and we'd like to bring all that to focus. So, Yeva, thank you so much for helping me do this

voidsontheeconomicsidethatIthinkmanypeoplejustskipbyanddon'thear.So,thankyou.Where canwefindmoreofyour work?I knowthatyou'renotreallyonsocialmedia,butIdidjustbuyaveryexpensivetextbook. Sorry. I don't set the pric That's true, but it's good. But anyway, go ahead, tell us. Well, all of my stuff is on the Levy Economics Institute's website, so I think that's where people should go if they want to read some of my stuff. Very good. op-eddogettheopedoutthere. Okay. All right.

Well again, that is an open invitation and I mean that for I really would love it if you would. Because we're just regular people that would like to lift up people that are doing the work. So thank you so much. Appreciate it immensely. You're welcome. ,so fromMacro from Macro N

Cheese,RealProgressives,nonprofit.Ifyoufeeltheworkwe'redoinghereisworthanythingtoyou,ifyoufeellikewe'redoinggoodwork,wesurviveonyourdonations.Andit'stheyearend,so,beinga501C3,theyaretaxdeductible,folks.Don'tforgetyoucangiveusaone being a 501c3, they are tax deductible, folks. Don't forget you can give us a one-time donation at our website realprogressives.org you can also go to our substack, realprogressives.substack.com. You can go to Patreon, it's realprogressives/patreon.com.

But by all means, we need your support. And Yeva, graphics,soundengineering,extrasandshownotesformacroenchisaredone.,MacroandCheeseN