Part of our mission is to introduce MMTers to socialism and socialists to MMT. We’ve had a few metaphorical doors slammed in our faces along the way. Former friends from the MMT community now delight in slinging accusations worthy of a HUAC hearing, while some socialists suspect modern monetary theory is just a sideshow of bourgeois economics. So, we didn’t know what to expect when we reached out to Justin and Jeremy, co-hosts of a podcast we’ve long admired. Compared to the vicious rejection we...
Jun 28, 2025•1 hr 16 min•Ep. 334
If civilizations are judged by how they care for their elderly, our report card is already written. Should there be anyone left to judge us – should humanity exist long enough to judge us – we’ve flunked. Steve’s guest is Judy Karofsky, author of 'DisElderly Conduct: The Flawed Business of Assisted Living and Hospice,' who provides a critical examination of the elder care industry. Judy discusses her own struggles with assisted living facilities and hospice care, highlighting the systemic issues...
Jun 21, 2025•58 min•Ep. 333
**On Tuesday evening, C. Derick Varn will join us AGAIN for Macro ‘n Chill, our weekly community gathering. While listening to this episode, we will have the opportunity to ask questions and engage in discussion about Part Two. June 17th, 8 pm ET/5 pm PT Click HERE to register The second half of Steve’s conversation with Derick Varn goes into the history of the socialist movement from the 1960s to the present. Derick traces some of the current factionalism back to the ideological battles between...
Jun 14, 2025•1 hr 7 min•Ep. 332
**This Tuesday evening, C. Derick Varn will join us for Macro ‘n Chill, our weekly community gathering. While listening to this episode, folks will have the opportunity to ask questions and engage in discussion. June 10th, 8 pm ET/5 pm PT Click HERE to register This episode is the first of a two-part discussion delving into historical splits within socialism. C. Derick Varn, the host of Varn Vlog, has an extensive background in philosophy, anthropology, and history. He takes us from the First an...
Jun 07, 2025•1 hr 5 min•Ep. 331
There's an oft-repeated Chris Hedges quote that goes: “I do not fight fascists because I will win. I fight fascists because they are fascists.” Well, that’s how we feel about the banks. Revolutionary change is only possible when people understand the institutions of power. The banking system plays a huge role in perpetuating class division and disciplining labor. Christopher Shaw is the author of Money, Power, and the People . He talks to Steve about America’s long struggle to democratize bankin...
May 31, 2025•1 hr 8 min•Ep. 330
The podcast focuses on the critical need to address the root causes of health and environmental crises, emphasizing that many diseases, including cancer, are largely influenced by environmental factors and capitalism's exploitative nature. Hamza Hamouchene talks about his reasons for leaving a career in cancer research, highlighting the disillusionment he faced when he realized that the focus was on profit rather than genuine health solutions. Hamza and Steve make a case against a capitalist sys...
May 24, 2025•1 hr 14 min•Ep. 329
This episode features sharp commentary on the current geopolitical landscape, exploring why China continues to thrive despite the chaotic shifting of US policies. Our friend Carl Zha brings his vast knowledge of China and delves into the shifting global dynamics with the US. He and Steve examine the absurdity of the US government's approach to trade, particularly the impact of tariffs and sanctions on its own economy, while China strategically positions itself as a rising power. Steve likens the...
May 17, 2025•57 min•Ep. 328
As difficult as it is to get a handle on the chaos and confusion of Trump’s shifting policies, we continue to ask wise friends for their perspective. This week Steve is speaking with Australian economist Bill Mitchell, a founder of MMT and a regular guest of this podcast. Bill helps us unpack the capitalist contradictions driving global instability. Steve asks if we should be looking at Trump’s actions as a continuation of the neoliberal trajectory as described in Bill’s book, Reclaiming the Sta...
May 10, 2025•56 min•Ep. 327
The past year has seen lots of discussion of the ‘human’ nature of AI. Programs like ChatGPT were writing poetry, engaging in debates, and roasting users with witty retorts. Educators have been facing more serious concerns as they navigate a world in which students no longer need to learn to do their own research, writing, or thinking. But the militarization of AI makes these other activities seem like Donkey Kong. Investigative journalist Peter Byrne joins Steve to talk about the treacherous re...
May 03, 2025•59 min•Ep. 326
“When you are a dominant empire like the US, economically, militarily, geopolitically, and you make bets that are exclusively based on power rather than technology, innovation, research and development, education, a growing prosperous middle class, history tells us that you will eventually fail. And that's the ugly reality.” Like most media nowadays, we seek to make sense of the confusing, contradictory, and often absurd Trump policies. So of course we turn to our best friend and most frequent g...
Apr 26, 2025•1 hr 4 min•Ep. 325
This week’s episode comes from Steve’s recent appearance on The Tracy Show, where he was invited to talk about MMT with host Tracy Carson, who had some questions. Tracy: Okay, I'm going to tell you what I think I understand about Modern Monetary Theory or MMT. I'm just going to go with MMT. The federal government can pretty much generate money out of thin air. Steve: It does. It's the only way it works. Yes. Tracy: Okay. Okay, so I got that part right. [pause] Basically, that's pretty much where...
Apr 19, 2025•1 hr 8 min•Ep. 324
“Humanity... is at a critical moment in history where the decisions that we make could have massive, massive implications, for our future trajectory, for the future trajectory of human civilization over the next two centuries. Those decisions can either ensure that we have a prosperous millennium or that we have a disastrous one.” Erald Kolasi joins Steve to talk about his book, The Physics of Capitalism. Erald’s interdisciplinary approach merges economics, technology, energy, and ecological dyn...
Apr 12, 2025•1 hr 18 min•Ep. 323
Crazy things have been going on with the price of eggs, especially in the US. If you think this is happening because of the avian flu, you’ve been hoodwinked. Again. Basel Musharbash, an antitrust and trade regulation attorney, joins Steve to pull back the curtain on the monopoly forces within the egg supply chain. The discussion reveals crucial and surprising information about this, um, bread and butter issue. The episode explores the role of avian flu and how it has been weaponized by a few co...
Apr 05, 2025•53 min•Ep. 322
Steve’s guest is noted economist L. Randall Wray, one of the early developers of modern money theory. As many times as this podcast has talked about MMT, it’s always topical. In fact, just last week, Elon Musk discovered 14 magic money computers in government agencies! So, Trump had to hire the richest man in the world who hired who knows how many hundreds of young tech kids to discover what we've been saying for 30 years, which is that Congress appropriates money, and then the computers keystro...
Mar 29, 2025•1 hr 12 min•Ep. 321
** Every Tuesday night, we gather online to listen to the episode and discuss it among friends. Everyone is invited to this community building event. Bring your insights and questions. REGISTER HERE for Tuesday, March 25th, 8 pm ET/5 pm PT Steve’s guest is Michael McCarthy, author of 'The Master's Tools: How Finance Wrecked Democracy and a Radical Plan to Rebuild It.' They explore McCarthy's analysis of financialization as a deliberate class project to dismantle working-class power and exacerbat...
Mar 22, 2025•58 min•Ep. 320
Near the start of this episode, Yeva Nersisyan talks with Steve about leftist economists who are still wedded to the belief that government spending relies on taxpayer money. She says if an academic on the left uses the ‘taxpayer dollar’ framing, then you cannot be surprised when the right uses it too – to say they’re saving taxpayer money, cutting wastefulness, cutting inefficiency. It’s why being consistent is so important. If one side can use it, the other side can too. “It leads to the Elon ...
Mar 15, 2025•1 hr 17 min•Ep. 319
If you ever find yourself asking “What’s left?” you’re in good company. Today’s left is often indistinguishable from neoliberal centrism. Steve’s guests are Simon Winlow and Steve Hall, authors of the book, The Death of the Left: Why We Must Begin from the Beginning Again. They talk about the historical shifts that have led to ideological collapse, disconnection from the working class and the embrace of individualism over collective action. The conversation emphasizes the urgent need for a reviv...
Mar 08, 2025•1 hr 1 min•Ep. 318
Control of information is a vital weapon of the ruling class in its war on the people. Critical media literacy is more important now than it has ever been. For the past year we’ve been drowning in imbalanced coverage of the war on Gaza. (How many times did mainstream news outlets use the word ‘genocide’?) It’s just one example – and it’s an outrage. Steve’s guest is Shealeigh Voitl, Project Censored’s digital and print editor. They discuss the media’s role in shaping public perception and delve ...
Mar 01, 2025•59 min•Ep. 317
Thomas Fazi joins Steve once again, this time to explore the current geopolitical landscape under Trump 2.0 and the absurdity of an American empire that creates enemies out of thin air to justify its ongoing military and economic interventions. The conversation touches on the implications of austerity measures on the working class and the irony of billionaires like Elon Musk advocating for cuts to government spending while enjoying the benefits of public funding via massive subsidies. With a tou...
Feb 22, 2025•52 min•Ep. 316
John Perkins is a storyteller. His stories tell of his work as an economic hit man, creator of a death economy that is polluting and consuming itself into extinction. He has served as advisor to the World Bank, UN, IMF, Fortune 500 corporations, and government and business leaders across the globe. “You know, my job was pretty easy, generally speaking, because I was offering the president of a country or his finance minister, whoever, a big loan. And the fact that this loan would help him and hi...
Feb 15, 2025•50 min•Ep. 315
Depressed about the state of the world? Meet podcast hosts, Dai Poole and David Kugler, who are able to talk about the depressing stuff, yet manage to have a little fun along the way. In November, they brought Steve onto Call Me Limbo because they’re interested in Modern Monetary Theory (smart guys). A few months have passed since then, and things have changed in the US. The episode dives right into the thorny questions of divisiveness and weaponized identity politics. Anything that further divi...
Feb 08, 2025•1 hr 3 min•Ep. 314
“We need to understand the limits of capitalism. Capitalism has serious limits in the sense that it puts exchange value over use value. And this is by definition irrational according to logic of need, but very rational according to logic of profit... But we also need to understand that we are the ones who have produced the system. That's where the empowering voice comes out, because it says, okay, if we have created it, we can also change it. And guess what? The system is really fragile. That's ...
Feb 01, 2025•39 min•Ep. 313
“It's a wound. Palestine is a wound that doesn't go away because it's ignored.” Where there is oppression, there is resistance. Even when it seems invisible to outsiders, it can always be found in the art and culture of the oppressed. Malu Halasa and Jordan Elgrably, of the Markaz Review, talk to Steve about Sumud: A New Palestinian Reader, an anthology of essays, poetry, fiction, memoirs, and art. Sumud is translated to mean ‘steadfastness’ or ‘standing fast.’ Recounting the work of author and ...
Jan 25, 2025•51 min•Ep. 312
Running for office is a fool’s errand if you think you can win and radically change the system from within. But an election campaign can serve other purposes for political organizers. A campaign provides a platform, a megaphone... media attention. The process of campaigning puts you in touch with people in the community. As Steve puts it, an election allows you to “build coalitions and radicalize people.” Jen Perelman’s need to run against Debbie Wasserman Schultz was clear: “I knew that we were...
Jan 18, 2025•1 hr 2 min•Ep. 311
When there’s an attack on a high profile (read: white) target in the US, media attention is aimed at the perpetrators. If the act was politically motivated, that fact is either used to explain their psychopathy or dismissed altogether. The December shooting death of a UnitedHealthcare CEO has had a different reaction. As soon as the news broke, public sympathy was drawn to the shooter. The American people have too many horror stories about being denied medical coverage. Jordan Chariton, of Statu...
Jan 11, 2025•59 min•Ep. 310
History doesn’t stand still, and every time we talk about BRICS on this podcast, there’s more to unpack. To understand the significance of BRICS, we must begin with (wait for it) monetary sovereignty. Economist Yan Liang is an expert on China’s economy and MMT. She joins Steve to discuss the evolving role of the BRICS nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) and the increasing number of countries becoming involved in challenging US dollar hegemony and the current global financial sys...
Jan 04, 2025•1 hr 7 min•Ep. 309
What’s the point of understanding money if we don’t look at the power relations controlling its distribution? Bill Mitchell, a key figure in the development of modern monetary theory, is back for his twelfth appearance on the podcast, beginning with Episode One, Putting the T in MMT . As a key figure in the development of MMT, Bill articulates how this theory fundamentally challenges conventional economic wisdom by asserting that governments, as currency issuers, are not financially constrained ...
Dec 21, 2024•1 hr 5 min•Ep. 308
Can you imagine granting personhood to AI entities? Well, some of us couldn’t imagine granting personhood to corporations. And yet... look how that panned out. In this episode, Steve talks with Duke law professor James Boyle about his new book, The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood. James explains the development of his interest in the topic; it began with the idea of empathy. (Then) moved to the idea of AI as the analogy to corporate personhood. And then the final thing – and maybe the most...
Dec 14, 2024•53 min•Ep. 307
Paul Gambles is back to help us unpack China's recent issuance of US dollar-denominated sovereign bonds in Saudi Arabia. Paul begins by setting up the historical context. He takes us back to the end of the second World War and the Bretton Woods agreement, designed to bring a new world order, putting the US dollar as the global funding currency. China’s move signals a challenge to the petrodollar system – providing nations with new avenues for financing as an alternative to dollar dependency. Pau...
Dec 07, 2024•53 min•Ep. 306
Rohan Grey, who taught us to understand money as a creature of law, is back for his tenth appearance on Macro N Cheese. Steve and Rohan dissect the humor and horror of the political landscape. They make a realistic assessment of the Biden administration and look at figures like Elon Musk and Ramaswamy as part of a new wave of governance setting out to undermine the fabric of federal institutions. The conversation touches on the absurdity of contemporary American politics, where a ‘meme president...
Nov 30, 2024•1 hr 26 min•Ep. 305
