[MUSIC PLAYING]
We are going to broadcast this on Banned Books week.
Yay.
Do you have a favorite banned book?
I love To Kill a Mockingbird.
Hmm. Yeah.
And To Kill a Mockingbird is actually one of those books that has been challenged historically on both sides of the political spectrum. So it's an equal opportunity offender I guess.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
You are listening to WREK Atlanta. And this is Lost in the Stacks, the research-library, rock-and-roll radio show. I'm Fred Rascoe. I'm in the studio alone today. And it's dark. I need to turn some lights on each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you're here for, we hope you dig it. Our show today is called "Banned Books Week in Georgia," of course. It's banned books week everywhere.
But today, we're talking about what's going on in our home state, particularly in our public schools where book challenges have been in the news a lot lately. There are activists and politicians who actively campaigned for book bans, even for books that were selected by an established written policy. School librarians often work alone to serve a large community of students. So when they are under pressure from forces who want books banned, they may not know how to respond.
And that is where today's guest comes in. We'll be speaking with Nan Brown, an advocacy coordinator at the Georgia Library Media Association. She'll talk about the current climate and how librarians across the state are handling it. And our songs today are about bad situations getting worse, breaking free from control, and fighting hysteria. It's a little distressing that Georgia really needs a banned books week to remember why books are important for everyone, regardless of your identity.
But unfortunately, that's the Georgia we're currently in. So we start today with a song about wishing for a Georgia that exists in our dreams or aspirations. But maybe, in reality, we haven't quite got there yet. This is "Georgia" by The Black Lips right here on Lost in the Stacks.
[THE BLACK LIPS, "GEORGIA"]
That was "Georgia" by The Black lips. This is Lost in the Stacks. And today's episode is called "Banned Books Week in Georgia" because it is banned books week. In honor of the occasion, my co-host, Marlee Givens and I, recorded an interview with someone who advocates for school librarians in Georgia schools who are facing the increasing pressures and chilling effects of book bans. Let's meet our guest now to find out more.
My name is Nan Brown. And I am an advocacy co-coordinator for the Georgia Library Media Association.
OK, so the Georgia Library Media Association, that's an association of school librarians and media specialists?
Correct. And we are actually the state chapter of the American Association of School Librarians, which is a division of the American Library Association.
Tell us a little bit about your specific advocacy role in the GLMA.
So we try to support our membership who are addressing concerns of all kinds and advocating for positions. We try to raise awareness within our group and beyond to our communities, to our allies of threats to intellectual freedom. In the past, it has been threats to funding, that kind of thing. But at this time, it is threats to intellectual freedom that we're really working to raise awareness of.
Threats in the form of book challenges, book bans?
Yes, a major problem now is actually what we would've called, in the past, soft censorship that doesn't feel very soft at the moment because the whole climate of book banning has changed. I don't know. ALA just released a new survey which had information through August 31. And the last year broke records by far.
For the number of books challenged?
Mm-hmm. And at this point through August 31, it's 20% above last year already.
I was wondering if what's happening as far as the libraries is similar the same or different to what's happening just in schools in general, so challenges to class topics or curriculum.
Yeah. So the parents' rights package that passed in 2022 in the Georgia legislature is affecting everybody. The library bill specifically addressed what some legislators felt was a deficit in our state and that there wasn't one rule for everybody. It was a DOE rule that you had to have a media committee. You had to have a published process. But it left. Who was in your committee, how it worked, how many days was a local decision.
But they said, well, it needs to be consistent because it's too inconsistent, too many places. Although, we in our polling did not find that it was inconsistent other than days for turnaround and that kind of thing. So they made it very consistent. And they took the responsibility from a committee to a principal. They did modify it.
Shout out to the representative from Waycross who listened to the concerns of his school librarians-- that would be beyond the scope of a principal to have the time to read the books, especially multiple ones and that kind of thing. So they did allow a designee, which he specifically stated could be a committee. However, the time frame is really, really shortened to 10 working days.
So you're talking about Senate Bill SB 226?
SB 226, yes.
OK, yeah. And it puts the power in the hands of the principal to determine whether a book can be banned or not?
Correct. Now, this is specifically books challenged as obscene materials. So some districts do have a separate process if you are saying, as a parent-- because it also calls in this group that the challenge has to be formally presented by the parent or guardian of a child at the school where the book is housed. So that calls for them to go to the principal or the person they designate. If the principal says we keep it, then the person challenges directly to the school board.
If you look at the law and it says that only a parent of a child in the school-- as you said, only a parent of the child in the school-- can raise a challenge. Does that do anything to mitigate the influence of outside actors that maybe we've heard about, groups like Moms for Liberty that might agitate for book banning, whether they have a kid in the school or not?
It was a change. I can tell you because it's was publicly declared and a school board meeting. There were groups when it was implemented-- when they went back and they're like, we're going to go through the process. And it was implemented. There were people on social media publicly asking parents at schools-- we had the paperwork all filled out. We just need a parent at this specific high school to file this.
Wow.
So the things that we expressed concerns about-- we expressed concerns about because there was nothing in the DOE implementation, their interpretation, and how they pushed it out to districts about what do you do when you get 25 at one time. Do you take them sequentially? Do you get the 10 days for each? And that was not clarified at all. That is happening. It's my understanding, to this point, that people are pretty much-- because they can agree to extend it.
Like, the person who places the formal challenge can agree to extend the deadline. And I think it's pretty much a default of, if you don't extend it, we're going to approve it because we're going to assume that it was properly selected. Because that's another big thing that I really would like the general population to understand, that we're not defending a specific title in a reconsideration. We are defending that book was added to our collection according to our district selection policy.
So we're not saying, oh, I agree that this inappropriate book is right. We're saying, did we follow the selection policy? Which, typically, of course, it varies from school to school but typically goes somewhere along the ALA guidelines for selection to represent multiple viewpoints to meet the needs of all the children in our schools.
You are listening to Lost in the Stacks. And we'll be talking more with Nan Brown of the Georgia Library Media Association about how school librarians are facing book banning threats, after a music set. And you can file this set under PZ7.W75477.
[MARIE FRANCE, "DÉRÉGLÉ"]
[AYE NAKO,"PARTICLE MACE"]
"Déréglé" by Marie France. Before that, "Particle Mace" by Aye Nako. Those were songs about breaking free of misinformation and control.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is Lost in the Stacks. It's banned books week. So we're speaking with Nan Brown, an advocacy coordinator at the Georgia Library Media Association or GLMA about the increasing calls for more books to be banned from Georgia schools, especially for explicit content. Marlee kicks off this segment to ask about the disconnect between library book selection policies and those who call for books to be removed.
Why isn't it as simple as there's a challenge and you can just point to the policy? I mean, who's missing what? And who doesn't understand what?
School and public libraries are very trusted. But there is the echo chamber that this minority has been given. But they're also apparently really hard for some decision makers to push back against. So they hear them because part is age relevance. And middle school's hard because you have kids at the older side of 10 to kids who are 15.
That's a big difference.
It is a huge difference. And a lot of us compensate that for having our young adult books marked as young adult. So then the kids know these are the books with mature content. And it's so interesting to me that a lot of the people who are very, very concerned about what their child's going to pick up in a library and randomly open up and read. It concerns them much more than the little computer they put in their hand every day on a data plan. And we talked to the kids about that.
It's way easier to say, oh, this book is making me-- I don't want to read this, close it, and turn it back, than that TikTok video or that YouTube video that is specifically created to keep you watching. And you cannot stop.
Right. And the complaints, it's not, as you mentioned, folks complaining about not following a selection policy. It is really targeted towards books that have a specific kind of content. And I would say, even if we're talking about sexually explicit phrases or passages in a book, it's leaning towards the LGBTQ side of the spectrum where the challenges are. It's not necessarily a opposition to explicit content. It's a certain kind of explicit content.
The graphic novel, drama-- it's a play. There are two middle school-aged characters in the play, twins who are gay. And then there is a kiss on stage, just like Shakespearean times. There's all guys in this role. And that is one of the most challenged books. And if we pulled every book that had any kiss in it in our libraries, we'd be doing without a lot of books. You know? And we would not be meeting the needs or the interests of our students.
And I know that this law has only been in effect since January of this year, 2023. So it hasn't had like a real long time to gather data. But are you finding that successful challenges are rare?
Through that regular process--
OK.
--that have been reported. What we're hearing more about now are administrators and school board members are demanding books be removed without going through the process. But it is a horribly slippery slope. Where do you stop? Where do you start? Where do you stop? And at one of the Forsyth County Meetings, someone made a very valid point, if you're pulling everything with sexually explicit content, then many of us have some religious texts we have in our nonfiction section.
Then the Holy Bible has a lot of sexually explicit content.
Oh, sure.
Mm-hmm. Yep.
And we're not saying that being the first thing that--
Violence and murder and cannibalism and--
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But the target at the moment is sexually explicit. And absolutely, to your point, that's what ALA has seen. Books written by or about people of color and members of the LGBTQ community are overwhelmingly what's being pulled.
Is there any legal recourse when there's a challenge like that? It sounds like a chilling effect.
Absolutely.
So when groups like Moms for Liberty-- there's other ones as well.
Well, Libs for TikTok claimed credit for DeKalb County School District.
OK, yes. There was an instance where a teacher was actually-- that was let go. This is Cobb County teacher Katie Rinderle who read a book about gender identity to her elementary class.
So she was fired.
Yeah.
Counter to the recommendation of the board-selected educator tribunal, on a Thursday afternoon. And that next weekend is when the group Libs of TikTok, which is a well documented anti-LGBTQ group, notified Cobb County that they had this material. And then they posted publicly on their website. And they claimed credit for getting this sexually explicit material removed from the school the weekend after she was fired. So it is a significant chilling effect.
Are you hearing that from the library media specialists in the state that you advocate for?
100%. 100%. If your job is your livelihood and your source of your health insurance and your family's, we have the code of ethics that says we will work against censorship. But when it's a matter of your job-- so that's kind of where we are with GLMA as far as-- we just need to raise awareness to people.
The 78% of people who oppose censorship, as documented by ALA polls commissioned by ALA and other groups, this time, for people who oppose this to no longer think someone else is going to cover this and that these decision makers will do the right thing as far as opposing it. Because we really feel like they need to hear proportional to what they're hearing from the people who are asking for things to be removed.
Because, in fact, a lot of us some of us live in places where parents will make available to their children what they need to make available. They can get them to the public library. They can purchase books that might not be in our school libraries. But that is not the case for a large number of our students in Georgia. The school library is where they get their books.
What are you hearing from the students, if anything?
There are some active. There is a Georgia Youth Justice Coalition. They are becoming very active in this. There's actually a group. The Georgia Coalition for Education Justice is a lot of groups. We were the Georgia Coalition Against Classroom Censorship, so a lot of groups that were opposing this. And young people get it. They get that my parents get a say in what I read. I do not want other people's parents deciding what I read. OK, they 100% get it.
This is Lost in the Stacks. And we'll hear more from Nan Brown of the Georgia Library Media Association on the left side of the hour.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Hey, everybody. This is Jeremy Kitchen from Chicago Public library and curator of Punk Rock and Donuts here in Chicago. And you're listening to Lost in the Stacks, WREK Atlanta. And now go start your own band. [THE VELVET UNDERGROUND, "RUN, RUN, RUN"] (SINGING) Teenage Mary said, Uncle Dave. I sold my soul. Must be saved. Going to take a walk down Union Square.
Today's show is called "Banned Books Week in Georgia." But of course, the insidious creep of book banning isn't just happening in Georgia in fact, some of our neighboring states might have things a little worse. While most of today's interview was about things happening in our home state, Nan did express worry about the influence that other states might have here at home. So we're going to listen to that snippet of the interview now.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
We are really concerned about the overflow from the states around us.
When you say overflow, are you talking about a peer-pressure effect? Like, Georgia's seeing what Florida does and saying, oh, we'll do the same thing.
It is. And I think some administrators are saying that's acceptable there. Then I need to be prepared for it here. I actually had-- I don't know if you've heard this one. But I just had, at 6:30 this morning, hey, from another group I'm in. But Charlotte County, Florida, their district school superintendent directed them to remove all books with LGBTQ characters or themes from their school and classroom libraries.
They actually have a snip of the quote because, of course, the librarians asked clarifying questions, right? Are we talking sexually explicit? And he said, teachers must ensure that books with LGBT characters and themes do not enter the classroom, even if they are self selected by students for silent reading. The quote they gave was, these characters and themes cannot exist. But that's a really, really chilling interpretation.
Usually, statements of erasure are kind of implied. That is an explicit statement of erasure.
In writing. But it's a very, very chilling effect. Absolutely.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
File this next set under Z657.M75.
[THE BANGLES, "GETTING OUT OF HAND"]
(SINGING) I want to sleep. [FAYE WEBSTER, "BUT NOT KISS"] (SINGING) Friend told me yesterday. Hey. "Getting Out of Hand" by The Bangles. And before that, "But Not Kiss" by Faye Webster, songs about being on guard against displays of affection and a song about a bad situation getting worse.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is Lost in the Stacks. And we return to our interview with Nan Brown, advocacy co-coordinator for the Georgia Library Media Association, an organization that supports Georgia's school librarians. In the last segment, we talked about new Georgia laws that our librarians are navigating. And so I wanted to ask Nan if there was any mediary between school librarians and the Georgia government.
As part of your advocacy role dealing directly with the Georgia Department of Education to let them know how the challenge process is going how, administrators may be subvert that a little bit, is there a liaison process to the Department of Education?
Until July 31, we had a library media liaison. And when 226 was being-- in the time that DOE was developing it, then we shared our concerns through her. And how is this going to be interpreted? And can this-- and my principal just told me to remove this, right? What do I do? How do I document it? Because, I mean, I will say ALA reporting is anonymous. But I think a lot of people are hesitant to even do it anonymously.
They think they could be found out anyway.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Exactly. If they investigate it, who said? And if you're in a big district, they don't know. If you're in a small district, they probably know very likely who it is. But our wonderful Denita Hinkler, our wonderful library media liaison retired July 31. And when we learned at our June convention, the June Summer Institute at GLMA that she was going to retire July 31, we contacted DOE and asked, when can we expect the position to be posted, so we can make our membership aware?
And then, when it got into July, who's going to be the contact? Who do we contact when she's not there August 1? Our leadership contacted them, second week of August saying, OK, school started. Things are starting to happen. Because that position also was a liaison, like the Georgia representative for the national groups to learn what's happening in other states, right? They're the liaison with the public library.
Because it just makes a lot of sense to synchronize your work between public library, school libraries. And she was a liaison with Georgia Public Library Service. She had small groups. Because we know there-- I actually grew up in South Georgia. There are a lot of small districts where there's not a coordinator at the district office. There's the person with that role and 15 others that may be ESOL and nutrition and everything else. Right?
And to that point, our leadership has had no response from Georgia DOE.
So it's up to them to appoint a liaison from your organization, and they are unresponsive in that?
No, it is their job to hire somebody.
To hire someone, yes.
To hire someone. And we were trying, and we were trying to make our membership aware of she's not here right now. At least, who do people call instead of just ask DOE?
And there's no plan that you know of?
We have not been advised of a plan to fill the position or to whom questions. Because it's not just us asking questions either. Administrators have questions because there is a line item budget, of course, with charter status and flexibility and all that. But there's a line item budget for media staffing and media materials that there are questions about as well as, obviously, these huge censorship kind of concerns.
Well, we're at about 30 minutes of discussion. But I don't want to end on that. I want to end on a note of hope [LAUGHS] or a note of optimism. What gives you hope? Or what gives you optimism?
What gives me optimism is all of these polls that say that most people believe that libraries are important. Libraries provide the diverse resources. We are a huge booster of equity. We are a safe place for a lot of students. And I think we need to still be allowed to be that. And keeping the resources we need, understanding that parents have the right to manage their own children's reading, but making those people, those children who won't have access to materials they really need.
If you watch the Senate hearing on banned books, a young man spoke there. And he specifically spoke about the impact certain books had on his life, the tremendous impact they had on his life. And one of those books is one of the books that's been removed from multiple school districts outside the typical parent complaint process.
So these books can make a difference?
These difference can be life changing and life saving, according to his testimony and just what we've heard from other kids. And Jodi Picoult, who has a lot of challenged books too, told about a workshop with students she went to and the kids who came to her and said-- I mean, gut wrenching. Like, I don't know if the book Nineteen Minutes. It's about a school shooting.
And the kids who told her that reading that book made them change their plans-- and you don't ever know what a difference a book is going to make not or not having access to a book is going to make. So I'm just hopeful that these people who will answer a poll and say, we don't believe in censorship. We believe people should manage their own reading and their own children's reading. And let other people have that same right.
I'm hoping these people will take the time to contact decision makers and make them aware of their feelings. And the kids, I mean, I'm hopeful that the kids-- we have some incredibly passionate, well-spoken involved young people. So I'm hoping the decision makers listen to them as well.
It was really great talking to you, Nan. Thank you for joining us.
Thank you so much for having me.
You are listening to Lost in the Stacks. And our guest was Nan Brown, advocacy co-coordinator for the Georgia Library Media Association.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
File this set under JC573.R55.
[STRANGE BOUTIQUE, "IN HYSTERIA"]
[NEWFOUND HYSTERIA, "MOWMOWMOW"]
That was "In Hysteria" by Strange Boutique, and before that, "Newfound Hysteria" by Mowmowmow. Those are songs about trying to find a healthy response to zealous hysteria.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Today's show was called "Banned Books Week in Georgia." And of course, the issue of book banning goes far beyond Georgia's borders. According to ALA, the top five most challenged books nationwide as of 2022 are Gender Queer by Maya Kobabe, All Boys Aren't Blue by George M. Johnson, The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison, Flamer by Mike Curato, and Looking for Alaska by John Green.
It's worth noting that these books are challenged because of their presentation of LGBTQ sexuality or for their presentation of racial issues or both. There are a lot of books that middle schoolers and high schoolers read that they get from school libraries, public libraries, wherever, that contain references to sex or struggles with identity.
And while all kinds of books get challenged for all kinds of reasons, it's telling that the books at the top of this list of most challenged are the ones discussing a certain kind of sex or a certain kind of racial identity. Book challengers may think they are protecting kids from exposure to something harmful. But what our teenagers are hearing is you cannot exist. So boo to the book challengers. Cheers to GLMA and everyone else who fights to keep books for all kids in circulation.
Let's roll the credits.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Lost in the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library. Written and produced by Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens. Legal counsel and a first edition of Fahrenheit 451 were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia. Special Thanks to Nan for being on the show, to everyone advocating for library books to represent an entire community, not just a narrow political demographic.
And thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening. Our web page is library.gatech.e du/lostinthestacks where you'll find our most recent episode, a link to our podcast feed, and a web form if you want to get in touch with us. Next week, we're going to get really disoriented, but in a creative way. So not just my usual disorientation, I guess. Time for our last song today. We ended the interview on a positive note. So we're going to send the music out the same way.
Freedom to read may be under threat in a lot of school libraries. But the GLMA is tirelessly advocating to keep that freedom alive and making sure that every student can find a book that makes an important difference in their lives. So let's close with "I'm Free" by The Rolling Stones, right here on Lost in the Stacks. Have a great weekend everyone.
[THE ROLLING STONES, "I'M FREE"]
(SINGING) I'm free to do what I want.