Oh, wow. How amazing and interesting too. But in this digital world, what can we do? What can we do?
Hey, good question. Well, it's up to you. In the digital world there's only three things to do.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
You are listening to WREK Atlanta. And this is Lost in the Stacks, the research library rock and roll radio show. I'm Charlie Bennett in the studio with Marlee Givens and Fred Rascoe. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you're are here for, we hope you dig it.
Today's show is called "Digital Instruction, Digital "Learning". CHARLIE BENNETT: Is this going to be another artificial intelligence show? Is that what Fred has served up for us?
It already is. This is all a simulation.
What?
OK, I'm kidding. It's not another AI show per se.
I do not like the sound of that per se. There's way too much wiggle room.
Yeah. Today's show is going to be about how digital learning and digital instruction happens in an academic library. And I might AI occasionally come up.
Our guest today just started as the new digital learning and instruction librarian here at the Georgia Tech Library. We'll find out how they're tackling the challenges of how education happens in a digital environment.
And our songs today are all about starting something new, looking ahead with optimism. And guess what? All songs are by bands recommended by today's guest. And we are all in-- and they are all in the post-punk, goth, and shoegaze genre. Charlie, you are going to love it.
Per se.
So let's start with a band that inspired every other band after them who fits into those categories, Joy Division. Joy Division started with the EP An Ideal for Living. And that EP started with the track "Warsaw." And that track starts us off here on Lost in the Stacks. CHARLIE BENNETT: You're so happy, Fred. 3, 5, 0, 1. [JOY DIVISION, "WARSAW"] 3, 5, 0, 1, 2, 5, go. "Warsaw" by Joy Division. I don't know what 3, 5, 0, 1, 2, 5 refers to. But someday, I hope to find out.
This is Lost in the Stack-- CHARLIE BENNETT: No, you don't, Fred. You want it always to be a mystery. Let the mystery be.
I know that.
We'll let the mystery be. This is Lost in the Stacks and our show today is called "Digital Instruction, Digital Learning." And today's guest is our colleague Justin Ellis. They are the digital learning and instruction librarian at the Georgia Tech Library. Justin, did get that title right?
Yes, you did, Fred. Thanks so much. Yes, my name's Justin Ellis, pronouns they/them. I am the new digital learning and instruction librarian at the Georgia Tech Library, new to the role but not new to Georgia Tech.
That's right. You are not new to the Georgia Tech Library. You have been-- well, I've been here for 11 years. And you predate me for sure
Yeah. I think it's been about 15 years. Some folks may know me as sort of the gadgets person. I, for several years, managed or worked as service owner for the Georgia Tech libraries gadget service and most recently working with my colleague Sandra Jones. So if you have borrowed equipment from the Georgia Tech Library at any point in the past 15 years, you probably spoke to me at some point.
What was the name of public services when you were hired in?
I think it may have just been called the circulation department and then access services and then public services, if memory serves. I don't know. It's all a blur at this point. No, it's been through several iterations.
And after seeing everything that's happened, you still wanted to make the jump from staff to faculty?
[LAUGHS] Yes, kicking and screaming-- no, I'm just kidding. No, I really enjoyed my role in gadgets, working with my colleagues. We worked closely with IT and other units, the subject librarians. So I had a lot of experience. Georgia Tech was very good to me in that I worked through two graduate degrees while working as a staff member. So, yeah, so I eventually sort of felt like it was time to make the jump.
Can I just say how rich that is coming from you, Charlie?
[LAUGHTER]
As you made a similar jump.
I see that you took the microphone away from me to call me out. Yeah, I still don't know why I did it. [LAUGHS] OK, so the staff-to-faculty transition is a huge one. And I think that we could do a show about it. But we're not going to. If you could summarize your feeling right now of leaving behind your staff identity and trying to fit into your faculty identity, how would you describe it?
Oh, it's difficult to distill that down to a short soundbite. But going from a very structured, behind-the-scenes role to a role where maybe I'm a little bit more prominent-- Marlee and I were talking earlier about me teaching my first solo class this week, which was a great experience. But there's a lot more on me in terms of planning my own path forward and pursuing the projects that I want to get involved in, and pursuing partnerships.
There's less of folks coming to me, either for equipment or for suggestions, and more of me sort of reaching out to other colleagues and faculty members across campus.
So in your previous job, as you mentioned, kind of the gadgets guru maybe. You're working with a lot of material, equipment that enables digital creation.
Yeah.
So and these are things like cameras and iPads and devices, things like that. It's all in the electronic realm.
Yeah. So what's really been interesting to watch the transition over, well, over a decade now. How so many classes across campus, not just in any one sort of field, everyone is developing digital content. They're expected to develop digital portfolios. So it doesn't matter what your major is, what your field is. At some point, you're going to be expected to create some sort of digital artifact and typically something that's going to be shared or something to promote your work or your research.
So I feel like, again, my colleague Chandra and I really sort of worked with instructors from across the Institute to gauge how we could best accommodate that process, the differences between different departments, different expectations, and then just the fun things too.
The fun things, one of the most recent projects we worked on, we worked with the Georgia Tech survivor group with some of their filming and were able to provide some equipment for some of their recordings, so things that sort of fall outside of just academic projects or career-focused projects.
So was the position that you have now for digital instruction, digital learning and instruction librarian, was that the position that, if you were going to make the jump from staff to faculty, was that the one that you wanted to go to?
I think so. After library school, I had kind of pursued graduate education in educational and instructional technology. So I feel like it was sort of a natural progression. But I was content, in some ways, to work behind the scenes. There are a lot of fun aspects when you're working with equipment just because something everybody, like I said, everybody is using, everybody needs. You get great suggestions from students.
You get to talk to students about the sort of projects that they have in mind, faculty members about what they would like to do or what sort of projects they would like to see incorporated into their syllabi. So it's taking all of that. And then figuring out the other part of that process is figuring out how to actually make that work and make it work within the confines of budget and working with our IT department, et cetera.
So you were always known as the person who could just give that quick, little, here's how you use this piece of equipment, one-on-one session before someone actually checks something out. Now you are standing in front of a group of students and their professors right there in the room. What is different about that?
Well, it's very intimidating on one level, to be sure. And it is very different in that you're going from a quick, sort of snapshot of this is how you accomplish this kind of small objective to-- I liken it to scaffolding.
You're thinking kind of longer term about how you're going to put these learning objectives together in such a way that you've created a scaffold to build one skill upon the other or create a guideline or pathway that students can pursue to achieve maybe a longer term objective and maybe take some of those skill sets into, say, their next class or their next project.
So you feel like you've still got a foot in that world, in your old role? JUSTIN ELLIS: Always, always, yeah. I touch base with Chandra just about every week as she is the now service owner. And she has launched a new service called Gadgets Pro that is providing field versions of some of the studio equipment that is available through the library's audio and video studio. So it's the next tier of service and is right in line with her areas of expertise in filmmaking and production.
This is Lost in the Stacks. We'll be back with more from Justin about digital learning, digital instruction, and other digital topics as well, maybe even AI, despite our better judgment, after a music set.
And you can file this set under SB 453.P6.
[LUSH, "OUTDOOR MINER"]
[SIOUXSIE AND THE BANSHEES, "GREEN FINGERS"]
"Outdoor Miner" by Lush, cover of the classic Wire song. And before that, "Green Fingers" by Siouxsie and the Banshees. Those are songs about working to grow something new.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is Lost in the Stacks. And today's show is called "Digital Instruction, Digital Learning." And our guest is Justin Ellis, the digital learning and instruction librarian here at Georgia Tech. In the last segment, we talked a little bit about your past in the library and what your new position involves. And I think, of the four of us in the studio, you have been here the second longest.
[LAUGHTER]
So you've seen a lot of change, right?
I've seen some things, yeah.
[LAUGHS]
So, I mean, your own position has changed. But what have you noticed as far as change in the library over that time?
Oh, that's a great question because I think, especially postpandemic, I feel like, across the organization, things are a lot more collaborative. You have fewer of those organizational silos where you don't have that sense of crossing units or departments that may have been kind of the norm in the past. A lot of that comes down to the portfolio project process.
And some of the other projects that some of my other colleagues, like Matt Freeman who is the public services librarian, implemented with Karen Glover, our associate dean, the partnership program where public services staff members worked on projects with either subject librarians or IT or other staff members in other units.
And I feel like, again, especially post pandemic, you have that sense of collaboration where it's not uncommon for someone to just jump into a project and sort of get up to speed and develop new skill sets. So, yeah. Yeah, that's maybe what I would consider the biggest sort of change as opposed to maybe-- I don't want to say how long ago, but in years past.
So you mentioned the project portfolio system?
Yes. CHARLIE BENNETT: And let's go ahead and blow that up just a little bit. That's a system that allows anyone in the library to formally collaborate with anyone else with recorded responsibilities, accountabilities, and scope and out of scope. Yes. Yeah, so anyone can submit an idea. And it goes through the portfolio process.
And if it's something that can allocate resources and time and staff to and it goes through the approval process, that can turn into full-blown project where you develop the outline of the project and what's in and out of scope and the other details.
How many projects are you in right now as a subject matter expert or as a team lead or as a consult?
That is a very good question and a question I was asked yesterday by Aisha, our associate dean and my supervisor. So I am only on-- I am only leading one project, one portfolio project. CHARLIE BENNETT: One project per se. Yeah. [LAUGHS] Yeah, exactly, exactly. One formal portfolio process project, which sort of grew out of a prior project. So Chandra and I had worked on a return-on-investment assessment project for the gadget service last year.
It's kind of started in 2021 as a way to take our quantitative data circulation data and try and get some qualitative data from faculty members and also do some focus groups and reconnect postpandemic and generate interest. And from that project, we were able to demonstrate some student savings through some of the resources that the library offered. So that has moved into a larger framework or a larger project. So we're doing some return on investment-style assessment with other services.
So you and your colleagues have built a kind of remarkable system to deliver digital learning tools, computer accessories, media production tools out to the campus. You put a lot of work into it in a variety of ways. It was very public-services oriented, right? Are you bringing a faculty lens to it now? How is it to interact with this service that you built now as a different role?
Well, I mean, I inherited that service in a form-- Joey Fons, former colleague of all of ours, developed the first iteration of the gadget service to supplement what, at the time, was the new multimedia studio. And this was a long time ago. And I became the steward of that service. And I tried to add, make updates. And it sort of snowballed from there. But, yeah, it is.
In a new position, a faculty position, trying to look at it from a different perspective, through a different lens, I take a lot of the feedback that we had gotten from faculty members over the years about what they were trying to do, what the objectives, learning objectives that they were trying to accomplish. And I'm trying to look at it more from that perspective rather than a service delivery perspective, if that makes sense.
Another aspect of the faculty lens, kind of getting beyond just here's the gadget. And here's how to use it. Bringing in new concepts, I know, at the top of the show, we mentioned this wasn't an AI show. But there's some digital learning aspects, I think, that you're going to bring into it.
Yeah, I mean, and that's inevitable given the pace of technological change. And again, I think this goes back a little bit to postpandemic things rapidly moving online or to an all-digital format and then coming back and having parallel tracks of online format and a hybridized format. And some of us-- I'm familiar with that having done sort of a hybrid program and an online program. So I feel like I can kind of see it from that perspective.
And I also try and look at the growth in some of Georgia Tech's online programs, starting with the master's in computer science and some of the professional programs and trying to look at all of these different facets and how we can integrate tools and take some of these concepts and expound upon them. Of course, AI is the biggest hot-button topic now.
And I've actually been collaborating with some of our colleagues in C21U to try and develop some ideas for a library workshop on ethical use and best practices in AI, large language learning models helping students look at these tools through an information literacy lens. Understanding that there can be bias with some of these tools. Understanding that some of these tools, as far as citations, ChatGPT can't be your research assistant. CHARLIE BENNETT: Oh, it can be it. Well, yeah.
It just can't be a good one.
It can't be a good research assistant. It will bring back. And I've given some examples, actually, in a short presentation about how it can generate complete citations that are completely made up. They're completely hallucinated. So learning how to navigate that. Also, in an area where, the other tools that we use every day, just whether your editor in Microsoft Word or Grammarly or something else are continually adding other AI functionality.
You're going to need to know how to do prompt engineering before you graduate. These are career skills, so trying to take a look at it from that lens and understanding how to use-- like any tool, if you take a hammer, you need to know how to use it safely, correctly. CHARLIE BENNETT: Before you break the thumb of civilization? Exactly.
Is that maybe how we should say it? You are listening to Lost in the Stacks. We'll talk more with Justin about digital instruction and learning. I hope no more AI, Fred, on the left side of the hour.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Hi this is Crow Camera in Vancouver, British Columbia. You are listening to Lost in the Stacks on WREK Atlanta. Don't you just feel silly when you say your own name like that on radio?
Yes.
Yeah.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Today's show is called "Digital Instruction, Digital Learning." As you might imagine, a lot of research universities are exploring what it means to educate in a digital environment. So I looked at the digital space of some prominent research universities to see what they were saying about it. For instance, at Yale's Poorvu Center for Teaching and Learning, they claim innovations in teaching are often synonymous with digital learning.
MIT'S Open Learning Program has a mission to quote, "transform teaching and learning around the globe through the innovative use of digital technologies."
At the University of California San Diego, they say they are enhancing teaching and learning through innovative use of technology when referring to their digital learning programs.
At Notre Dame, their office of digital learning says they uniquely combine creative digital learning design with world-class media production to create transformational digital learning experiences that improve learning.
Fred, is that not word salad to you or what?
Well, I see a lot of optimism. I see a lot of thinking about ways to broaden the reach of the university while serving the public good. That's what we're all after, right? But you know what I think about when I think about digital learning? I think no more snow days. Instead of getting a fun day off, you just have to log in instead. That's what I think about.
File this set under Z104.K76.
[SLOWDIVE, "MACHINE GUN"]
[COCTEAU TWINS, "ATHOL-BROSE"]
You are listening to "Machine Gun" by Slowdive. And we started the set with Athol-Brose by the Cocteau Twins. Am I saying any of those things correctly? I know how to say twins.
It's close enough.
Cool. Those are songs about-- I mean, I honestly have no idea at all. I've never listened to any of these tracks before this.
I don't even know what Elizabeth Fraser's singing in Cocteau twins. So, I mean, who can say?
Let's move on.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is Lost in the Stacks. Those are my jams, too, Justin. Today's show is called "Digital Instruction, Digital Learning." And our guest is Justin Ellis, who's been involved in digital technologies at the Georgia Tech Library for years. But just this summer, they took the new position of digital learning and instruction librarian. So you've been in this position what, two months now, three months?
Yeah, since July 1 officially. I think. Yeah.
OK, so have you had time to think about what you want to accomplish and the challenges that you've already seen in the role?
Well, I mean, some of the challenges are just developing a teaching style for library workshops, getting a lot of input and mentoring from my fellow subject liaisons and librarians.
Now, when you say teaching style, what do you mean? What are you thinking of when you're thinking of a teaching style?
Well, Marlee and I were talking before the show about it can be a challenge, especially as we were talking about earlier, taking these short, little instructional moments, like teaching someone how to use a particular device or whatever, and moving into of a different type of instruction where you are planning out a class and trying to meet specific learning objectives.
And you want students to walk away with something that they can not only carry into whatever assignment that they're working on, but maybe a research skill or a software skill that they can take and adapt into other areas too. So that's a challenge. And allowing space for students to do some of the work and not making it a collaborative experience as well and working with the faculty members.
I think you're further ahead than I was this time seven years ago. I mean, and I'll say my teaching style is constantly evolving. So welcome.
[LAUGHS] Yeah.
It's fun.
Yeah, it is fun. And the students are always amazing, whether we're talking about gadgets or whether we're talking about a piece of software or other library services. I'm always amazed at the innovation and the things that students are typically a couple steps ahead of us on any technology. So I learn so much from just having conversations with students too.
Have you seen anything that you're trying to catch up with right now that the students are a couple of steps ahead?
I'm trying to catch up on a lot of things right now. Again, I'm trying to find-- I'm not the best at saying or setting word boundaries or saying no to certain projects because I like to have my hand in a lot of things. I have pretty broad interests. But, yeah, a lot of-- I can't pick out any one thing specifically.
And maybe that's just because I've been in a whirlwind of trying to develop certain techniques and reach out and kind of establish some relationships across campus and do a lot of committee work both across campus with colleagues in the library and across the state as well, with Georgia Library Association, some of the committees that I work on there.
So have you thought about what you want to accomplish, not just I want to teach a class on this and this. You know? But what else do you want to accomplish in this-- like, when you look back five years from now-- we'll have you on the show five years from now.
In five years.
And we're going to review this.
OK. [LAUGHS] Write these down.
Yeah. And think carefully before you answer.
Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, boy. Well, one thing that interests me that I was interested in with this position, apart from maybe eventually taking on a subject liaison role, is I was a transfer student. And I pursued graduate education through hybrid and distance learning programs. So those are areas of interest that are near and dear to my heart.
And having conversations with folks from GT1000 and our colleagues in C21U about GT1000 and 2000 classes with transfer students coming into tech maybe from a two-year institution or from another college and making sure that they have all-- they are introduced to all of the resources that first-year students get as a part of their orientation.
So and working with folks across campus in the professional online programs, some of the other online programs, and just working to develop content and modules with the online learning management systems, like Canvas, and building a body of work that way because I feel like, in the future, more programs are going to expand out into a digital sphere or maybe be online only in some respect.
And being able to make sure that those students have the same access to resources and services that either hybrid or campus students do.
We're almost out of time. So we just have one last question in the script. And it's a quick one. I think just yes or no would be fine. Is a metaverse of some kind inevitable? JUSTIN ELLIS: [LAUGHS] I think so. Maybe we're already living in a metaverse and we just--
I told you this was a simulation. I told you right at the beginning.
This is the real Lost in the Stacks. And we've been speaking with past and future guest Justin Ellis. Thank you for coming back, Justin, being on the show.
Thanks so much. Thanks so much for having me. And thank you for the wonderful music today.
And we'll check in about five years.
[LAUGHS]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
File this set under LB1044.87.I534.
[MY BLOODY VALENTINE, "SOON"]
That was "Soon" by My Bloody Valentine, a song about looking forward to what's coming.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Today's show is called "Digital Instruction, Digital Learning." Off air, we learn from Justin that their two favorite books are Dune by Frank Herbert and Neuromancer by William Gibson. It strikes me and the rest of the show that digital technology is treated very differently in those books.
[LAUGHS]
Already, they're laughing. Dune has very limited computing machinery and no AI or robots because they are super bad news in that universe. Neuromancer, on the other hand, has advanced cyber technology all over the place, literally defining the frame and passage in the world. We've just had-- we have, like, no time for this. So, Justin, where along that technology spectrum do you think your heart lies?
Oh, that's a good question. I would say closer to Neuromancer but maybe in a sunnier, nicer, more utopian view rather than the dystopian view. Although, I had a conversation recently with someone about Dune and trying to explain why there is no AI or advanced technology in the Dune universe. But, yeah, there are two very different views of artificial intelligence. But, yeah. I mean, I'm hopeful for a future where we integrate these tools effectively and ethically.
And I, for one, welcome our AI overlords.
[LAUGHS]
Justin, the dystopia is baked in.
[LAUGHS]
CHARLIE BENNETT: Roll the credits.
[NINE INCH NAILS, "CLOSER"]
Lost in the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library, written and produced by Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens.
Legal counsel and a built-in, shock-proof AI detector were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia.
Special thanks to Justin for being on the show. And thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening.
Our webpage is library.gatech.e du/lostinthestacks. And you'll find our most recent episode there, along with the link to the podcast feed, and a web form if you want to get in touch with us.
Next week, Lost in the Stacks is offering a sneak-peek preview of a new exhibit the library is launching this month about the Fulton Bag and Cotton Mill.
Very different topic from this week.
A lot of labor.
Time for our last song today. And it's one more request from our guest Justin. Thanks, also, for the music recommendations today.
I think they were more demands, really, to the way they were responding to the music in the studio.
We started today's music appropriately enough with a starting song, Joy Division's first song "Warsaw." So let's just be contrary and end with another start this is the track that starts the debut album of Sisters of Mercy. And just to be even more metacontrary, note that this debut album was called First, Last, and Always. And the song that starts this album is about the end of everything.
My head is spinning.
This is "Black Planet" by Sisters of Mercy, right here on Lost in the Stacks. Have a great weekend, everybody.
[SISTERS OF MERCY, "BLACK PLANET"]