You know, it's a small school and there wasn't much online about you. Oh, you know, you should really get on Insta, Snapchat, and TikTok.
I find social media to be a soul- sucking void of meaningless affirmation.
[GUITAR MUSIC]
You are listening to WREK, Atlanta, and this is Lost in the Stacks, the research library, rock and roll radio show. I'm Charlie Bennett, and I'm leaning to the left in the studio with Marley Gibbons and Fred Rascoe. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you are here for, we hope you dig it.
Our show today is called TikTok Copy Rock. CHARLIE BENNETT: It's got a nice ring.
It does. Sounds good. Tick, tock, copy rock. TikTok is a social media juggernaut that is often in the news for all kinds of reasons.
Yeah, like it might end up being banned altogether.
OK, that's a different episode. Just chill.
OK, yeah, maybe another day. But for today we're specifically looking at how TikTok intersects with copyright.
And to help us along, we'll be speaking to a coworker here at the Georgia Tech Library who is not only working full time in the public services department, but also tackling law school at night. CHARLIE BENNETT: That's too much. She's studying how copyright issues are impacting social media. So we're going to learn it right along with her. I wonder if she's going to use the phrase, "it depends". Philip's listening.
Right, yeah. It does. It depends. If you're an intellectual property, it depends. Our songs today are about dancing, getting credit for creative labor, and going viral, which sounds like a bunch of fun topics to study in law school. So let's kick off the set with School by Pip Blom, right here on Lost in the Stacks.
[PIP BLOM, "SCHOOL"]
"School" by Pip Blom. It was not too late to go to school for our guest today. We welcome Kristen Brown. She is a public services associate at the Georgia Tech Library and also a law student. We're talking about TikTok and copyright today. Welcome.
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Super excited to be here.
So first of all, I want to ask you, you're working full time in the library, also going to law school. Why are you going to law school?
You definitely have to have a strong passion to endure the late nights while working full time. But basically, I attended this prelaw scholars program as an undergrad. And I met with judges, attorneys, and I was kind of sold at that point. I knew I wanted to be a part of that culture and space. And so that was back in undergrad, maybe a sophomore. I knew I wanted to go to law school, but I needed to work, too.
So eventually I did apply to the part time program while I was working here at Georgia Tech.
So you've known for a while, but it's just kind of a delayed--
Yeah. It's more logistics, like, how am I going to do this, because I need money. But I want to go to school. And so I really didn't know about part time programs, and so once I figured that out I was like, OK, this is for me.
So are you are you blending library stuff in law school or are you feeling like law school is going to be a big jump away from the career that you've got now?
I would like to blend. It's funny because you really don't know how it's going to look until you get out there. It's a lot of, OK-- because there's in-house counsel or you could work in an organization or a University. But it's a lot of like, well, you need to go to a firm. And so I'm still in that space of trying to develop what I want to do, which is odd, because I'm in my fourth year. But hopefully, I will learn soon.
CHARLIE BENNETT: I'm still trying to figure out what I'm going to do with anything, and I'm in my 50th year. Yes
So right now, though, you're in your fourth year, and one of the things that you're studying right now-- and I don't know if this is-- I've talked to you about it, but I don't know if it's just for a class or if it's kind of like an overarching theme through your academic career. Right now, you're looking at TikTok and copyright implications, copyright law implications for TikTok.
Exactly. Yeah. Actually, working here got me interested in intellectual property law. I didn't know it existed until working at Georgia Tech. I partnered with Lisa Lee for a while to help her out with patent and trademark consultations. And so from there, I've kind of liked trademark law. I actually helped her teach a class, and so that kind of sparked my interest. And I'm also a part of a student journal, and so a part of that, we had to pick a topic.
And so I knew I wanted to write about IP basically, or intellectual property law.
And you picked TikTok as the intellectual property. KRISTEN BROWN: Because I use TikTok. But also, I wanted to cover something that intersects with the digital spaces, and I couldn't be too broad. So I just limit it to TikTok as opposed to Instagram, YouTube and everything else. CHARLIE BENNETT: So there might be some people listening who don't know what we're talking about. What is TikTok? What is your use of it look like, and what is it broadly?
So it's basically a social media app. You can basically upload videos. It's a lot of dancing. Some people sing on TikTok, some people do food reviews. So it's just another social media app, but it's really focused on short videos at first-- it's kind of extended since then, to where you can have different elements, including dance, music, food reviews, and so forth.
I do have some facts about TikTok that I've looked up. So I can't say I'm a TikTok user myself. But I certainly notice--
You could say it, Fred. It doesn't need to be true. FRED RASCOE: Unfortunately, it is true. But I do-- you know, obviously, it's had a huge impact on the culture, so I'm very aware of it. But it's originated by Zhang Yiming, China, he founded a company called ByteDance in 2012, which merged with another app called Musical.ly in 2014, and then that kind of combined with an app called Douyin to become what we know-- in China it's called Douyin and outside of China it's called TikTok.
There are a hundred million users of TikTok in the United States. TikTok says it's over a billion worldwide. I guess I'll take them at their word. And according to an analytics company, Sensor Tower, an average user spends 1.5 hours in the app. Kristin?
Guilty.
How do you get to one and a half hours a day?
I think it's the ease of scrolling. And so because the videos are so short, you kind of are left with wanting more. And so you can literally just keep scrolling and scrolling and you look up and it's like, it's been an hour. Now I definitely have started to monitor my screen time, and so I try not to spend as much time. But yes, you can scroll a lot.
So why are people who are interested in copyright law, interested in TikTok? What's your interest in it?
Yeah. So I think in just observing conversations I've heard in the legal community and through my professors, there's been issues of just copyright infringement. Just with the digital space in general, sometimes the law is somewhat behind technology. And so it's still trying to catch up in this instance as well.
And so it's basically a lot of use of music, but sometimes the issue is that music actually licensed, or is it properly licensed to where the copyright holder can be accredited and receive royalties payments. CHARLIE BENNETT: And if I understand TikTok right, which I don't, but my guess at it is that it's a remix tool, right? The idea of your image plus someone else's music, or some other image plus your original content as commentary. Like, it's based on adding stuff to existing material.
Yeah. Some creators I definitely have seen do that, especially when they're trying to recreate a song or basically add their own little creative input to it. Also, you do see some TikTokers who just use the song, like how it is. But maybe a portion of it to possibly dance to it or create some sort of art to kind of conjunction with it.
So like copyright law, it sounds like it's a mess trying to disentangle all the threads of copyright. There's the person that makes the video, there's music that is used in the video. There's the dance pattern, choreography in the video. It's a morass.
Yes. When you think about it, pretty much a video has several different components that can be copyrighted. And you pretty much just name the dance, the music, what the person is actually saying in some instances. So it definitely can have several components.
And you mentioned that the law is not really keeping up at this point. But have there been any cases, has anyone tried to sue anyone over a TikTok content yet?
I think there was a lot of threats. It's still developing. And even from my paper, which I wrote on TikTok and this issue, I had to borrow from Instagram, as well as Facebook to see, firstly, what happens when you upload your material? Who has rights to it? What sort of licensing agreement do you have with the platform? I kind of discovered, it's a massive license agreement. You give up a lot, just uploading your video.
But also, there was issues with like, major record labels suing or threatening to sue because they wanted to make sure they were receiving proper royalties. And so it does create some issues in that sense.
So people are monetizing on TikTok? Are there creators who are making money, using advertising, or--
Definitely. Yeah. I think there's several means. I definitely have seen some people who might promote things, and so that's one way. But yeah, it's definitely a major market and these major label companies definitely want to make sure they are being properly paid as well.
So you said TikTok is kind of your research concern. Do you have a particular facet of things that focusing in on? What about TikTok do you really want to get into in doing your research?
Yeah. So I'm on a journal, it's the Southern Journal of Justice and Policy. And so it was focused, for me, I had to focus on, what is going to impact Black creators or artists in the future as compared to possibly like, past mistreatment.
And so that was sort of my vision going into this, how TikTok can provide a means for artists or even marginalized artists, more generally, to basically reap from the benefits they sowed, and which is essentially, the purpose of the copyright system, to promote creativity.
So if I can restate what you're talking about. You want to make sure that what Elvis did doesn't happen again on TikTok?
I just watched-- yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Not not. Not getting too silly about it. But the history of American pop culture sort of taking and remediating for more remuneration. Oh, man. I can't say the word.
Renumeration?
Thank you.
I know that one.
Is sort of the way that pop culture has worked, and TikTok is doing that again. Can you explain that a little bit more as we come to the end of the segment?
Yeah. So definitely, that's kind of what I'm looking at. There was a couple examples. There was a famous TikToker, she created the dance Renegade and it became incredibly popular, but she wasn't necessarily received accreditation for it. And so I kind of looked at that. Later on there was something called the Black TikTok strike. And so it's like, why did this happen and how can we kind of approach this and what is the best way to do so.
I cannot wait to talk about the Black TikTok strike. This is Lost in the Stacks. We'll be back with more from Kristen Brown about TikTok and copyright after a music set.
And you can file this set under GEV 1601.F84.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHARLIE BENNETT: That was Let's Dance by The Excel's, Named after the spreadsheet program, right, Fred?
Yeah, I think that's correct.
We started the set with The Kids Just Want to Dance by Fast Cars. Those are songs about dancing like all your followers are watching.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is Lost in the Stacks and today's show is called-- I'm going to say it like it's written, Fred. TikTok Copy Rock.
Yeah. I should have put a W in there. Rawk. Rawk.
TikTok copy rock turned out to be the most fun title. But really, what we're talking about is TikTok copy rights and dance, I think is where we're going. So in the last segment, we talked a little bit about a content creator strike on TikTok. And can you give us a little more context to that? Like what was the problem and what was the strike supposed to do as a solution?
Yeah. So basically, certain content creators, Black artists or content creators and marginalized creators, complained of unequal treatment on the app. And so essentially, they had created this Black TikTok strike, collectively, where they took a day away from TikTok, completely, just to see the reaction and to see how the app would function without them and without the creative components they bring to the app as well.
And so essentially, it was a strike away from TikTok, and where they were protesting what they described as mistreatment on the app. Whether that be something they refer to as shadow banning, where essentially, they argued that their content was not being equally viewed or shown on the platform compared to more mainstream content users.
So can you talk a little bit about shadow banning? Did that have to do with-- there's a whole class of artists-- class is the wrong word. A demographic of artists that's trying to get credit, trying to say, hey, we're creating these dances. Is the shadow banning because of the outspokenness of that or because other people that are appropriating that getting more views, so it's just algorithmical?
Yeah, I think the latter. I think you would see some instances where artists or users would complain how their followers were disproportionate to the views, and so you would have an artist, for example, or a user with like, hundreds of thousands of views-- followers, but they would only get a couple of views, or their video would not go viral. And so it was kind of like a disproportionate impact.
When you think about it, you have all these followers, why I'm not getting the views to kind of follow with that? CHARLIE BENNETT: So the content-- we've been kind of dancing around this a little bit, and I made the Elvis joke. But there's Black TikTok creating a lot of musical and dance content, which then seems to be appropriated or recreated by white TikTokers, and they're getting more views and more play and more money? Yeah, basically.
And more accreditation, and that's even extending outside of TikTok. And so you have seen some more mainstream creators who basically might have repurposed or used a dance that was created by a Black TikToker, but they became incredibly popular just in mainstream culture outside of TikTok as well.
So this is like the history of America.
This has happened again, and again.
But now TikTok has produced receipts because it's recorded.
Yes. CHARLIE BENNETT: And the process is, let's see, I guess the process is recorded, too. The views are there, you see who's done something that someone else had done beforehand, and you can very easily see the path of, I'm a more palatable face for this particular creative content, and so I'm going to promote it, and that's happening on TikTok. Exactly.
Well I just-- I want to leave the studio now and walk into the ocean.
But there's things that we, TikTok, as a society, the country, things that we can do about this. One thing that Black artists have started to adopt, I think it's fair to say as a strategy for protecting their intellectual property on TikTok, is embracing copyright as a part of that strategy.
Yes.
So can you talk a little bit about how that is happening in the Black creator community?
Yeah, and I think it's Black artists and TikTok users are starting to become more educated about the power of copyright law and how you can use it on TikTok. So for some people, it's kind of foreign and it does require that sort of educational component to know, what can copyright law do for me? And so I think there was a couple of famous cases where some TikTokers got their first copyright for a dance. I even think the Renegade dance was maybe later copyrighted, if I'm not mistaken.
But just examples of that, where they're actually getting their art copyrighted so that they can maintain control and authorship in order to kind of not go back down the history.
And I know one of the things that you're looking at in your research in your law school work is the proposed-- what's called the DCA, the Digital Copyright Act. What is that act about, and how would it impact TikTok creators? KRISTEN BROWN: Yeah, so basically, the Digital Copyright Act pretty much functions and covers how we protect everything on the internet, as far as copyrighted work, and so how that essentially works.
And so, of course, it hasn't really been updated in a while, and there has been some proposals to update it. One proposal is to basically increase regulation by creating an automatic system to detect infringement material. And so it's more of an auto system as opposed to the system we use now, which is more of a notice takedown system. That's one side of it.
And there has been some critiques to this particular approach, more so because it does put a heavy burden on the platform, which in turn can impact the users. So yeah. Right. The user will be impacted because the platform certainly wants to get rid of as much liability as possible, so they're going to push everything onto the user. I can kind of see that as an unintended consequence.
And our Black creator's going to be able to-- are there circumstances where Black creators get affected by this automatic algorithmic takedown notice differently than white creators?
Yeah. And that was essentially kind of what I was hinting at in my argument, where that might be the unintended impact, where more vulnerable or marginalized artists will be disproportionately impacted because of an automatic system as opposed to the system we have now, and also not putting such a heavy burden on the platform.
Is an automatic system actually going to recognize moves? The motion of a body and then try and-- because it depends on what day it is, whether I think we should do automatic copyright infringement enforcement. Sometimes it seems like, yeah, let's do it. And sometimes it seems like, you cannot let a system try and figure this stuff out.
Yeah, it's hard to conceptualize, but everything's changing. So it's quite possible with artificial intelligence and other things. I am not sure how they would detect the actual dance move. Of course, with music or when you speak something, that sounds a little easier to detect. But then it becomes like, well, how much will you do? Or how much detection can occur? But yeah, I am not sure about the dances. That does sound interesting.
You know, when I think about how our automated systems, even for like bathroom paper towel dispensers treat different races differently, I don't have a lot of confidence in artificial intelligence on TikTok.
Go ahead and explain that a little bit more. Because I'm sure some people don't know what you're talking about.
That's probably true. So and I apologize, I can't remember specific companies involved. But whenever you go to a restroom, sometimes you'll see the paper towel dispenser, you stick your hand under it, it's automated. There have been studies shown that certain ones, you put your hands under it and if your hands are a certain skin tone, it detects you and it will dispense the paper towel, and if not, if it's a darker skin tone, it didn't register.
Just because people that were designing it just did not take skin tone into consideration. CHARLIE BENNETT: Because they quote, unquote, "didn't have to." Exactly. Yeah.
We can't end on that. We've got to end with a little optimism. We've got a little more time in the segment. Let's find something happy.
Copyright is not the only tool in the intellectual property protection arsenal, is it?
Correct. It is not. So there are other means, and that's kind of what I explored as well. Maybe implementing some sort of licensing mechanism, where when you think about the artists, and I particularly focus on the marginalized artists and in that sense, maybe an independent artist who wants to use his platform to jumpstart their career.
And so if they have a licensing mechanism, maybe a sync license, which basically covers work performed on TikTok, that it's a non-exclusive license, which gives them the power to explore their work while not being confined to a major label agreement. So that was kind of like my alternative approach, and it was advocated by another student author from USC.
You are listening to Lost in the Stacks and we are going to have more TikTok copyright rock talk. How did that sound?
I mean, maybe a little tighter next segment but it's a good start.
We'll do that on the left side of the hour.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Hey this is Brett Netson from Built to Spill, Caustic Resin, and Snakes. You're listening to Lost in a Stacks on WREK, Atlanta.
Today's show is called TikTok Copy Rock. Since we're talking so much about dancing and copyright, I think we need to use this mid-show break to say a little about JaQuel Knight. JaQuel Knight is from Atlanta. He graduated from Tucker high school just down from my house. He doesn't do at home TikTok dancing. Rather, he is a professional pop music choreographer who has worked with many big names in the music industry like Megan The Stallion, Usher, Jennifer Lopez.
You might have heard of those people. While US copyright law allows copyrighting for choreography, and has done so for several decades, until JaQuel came along, no one had really copyrighted a dance for a popular music routine. In 2008 when he was just 19 years old, JaQuel choreographed the video for Single Ladies, by Beyonce. Maybe you've heard of that one, too. Well, that definitely boosted his career. Someone's doing it in the studio.
He became discouraged by the music industry's lack of compensation for his creative labor. So in 2020, he successfully applied for the copyright of his choreography for single ladies-- the first pop music choreography to be awarded copyright. Subsequently, he set up the Knight Choreography and Music Publishing Institute to help other choreographers, particularly artists of color, receive credit and seek greater compensation for their efforts. So hats off to Atlanta's own JaQuel Knight.
And while your hat's up, file this set under HM 851.N34.
[FLEETWOOD MAC, "DREAMS"]
You just heard Goo Goo Muck by The Cramps, and we started out with Dreams by Fleetwood Mac. Songs that have recently gone viral on social media.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is Lost in the Stacks and our guest today is Kristin Brown. She is a public services associate here at the Georgia Tech Library as well as a student in law school. We've been talking about her studies on the intersection of copyright and TikTok, and Kristin, we're going to kind of get back to a topic that we covered in previous segments, the strike that happened because of shadow banning that was happening for Black creators. Can you tell us a little bit about the response to that strike?
Like did things improve, what was the initial response from the community, from TikTok, what happened?
I think it was sort of a double response. And so you had mainstream response to it. So there was several articles written and a sense of awareness around the issue, which it's already been here. But reestablishing how this can also occur on social media platforms. So there was a sense of awareness. Also, TikTok did respond as well. They did create a program or sort of-- yeah, like a program for independent and marginalized artists to basically promote their content as well.
Some artists-- and I think users have used that, as well, whether or not it's really that efficient, it's still up in the air. But there was at least a response to it, in the sense of awareness around the issue.
So if someone creates a video today on TikTok, a Black person creates a video demonstrating a dance, something, do you have confidence that now, as opposed to a couple of years ago, that person will get appropriate credit, whatever else is due to that creator?
I guess I'm a little more optimistic because there is a sense of awareness. That's not only for just the general public, but also the content creator. And so now they know that they have to have the necessary tools to protect their art. And so whether it's through copyright protection or some sort of licensing mechanism. So I do think there is a sense of awareness, but the issue still exists. And so you do have that side of it as well.
You do still see it in current times, where some artists are not still getting accredited for their work. So the issue is out there, but there are at least has been a response to it from TikTok and from others.
So you've mentioned licensing and you talked in the last segment about a proposal in your paper, or just something that you thought we should pursue, a licensing mechanism for TikTok. Can you describe that in more practical or user terms?
Yeah, sure. So in response, just in general to the issue of mass infringement on TikTok, TikTok did enter into a licensing agreement with major record labels. And so that basically means that they entered into an agreement to have rights to use the music on TikTok with the copyright holder. And so that's basically what occurred on the larger scale. My recommendation is, how can we help the smaller, more marginalized artists?
I even have an example of an independent artist who did become-- she got a Grammy, I think this year, and she credits TikTok for basically launching her career and Muni Long is her name. But she talks about how she likes how she was able to control her work. And so with a licensing agreement, you don't give away your authority.
It's basically a non-exclusive agreement, meaning, you can use your work in different areas or with different people, but if someone wants to use your work or your music on TikTok, they would have to have a licensing mechanism in place through the actual TikTok, probably, where they can use a music so you receive payment.
So the thing about a Grammy award winner crediting TikTok, I just realized, this is YouTube again, right? And didn't we learn a bunch of lessons with YouTube? Are we applying those lessons? Are these new problems or is this just another platform and the same problems, again, with a different shell?
It seems to be a little bit of history repeating itself. And I think now we have a younger generation, and that's why we do have the need for at least awareness, education, and the understanding of copyright law in general.
Well, it's interesting that you mentioned education. Because I have to ask, I mean, is it-- I know that a lot of students now are turning to platforms like TikTok and YouTube to get information to learn about things.
Yes.
I mean, do you have a way of reaching TikTok users through TikTok, or do you have any plans to educate them about copyright?
Yeah. That's actually an interesting perspective. And I think other users of TikTok have actually started to do that as well. I think that was also in response to the Black TikTok strike or just the TikTok strike in general, how the sense of education came out and other users would post videos on, how do you protect your work, or just mainstream articles that came out in response to it as well. So that, again, goes to the educational component of it.
So Kristen Brown's copyright channel on TikTok coming soon?
I don't know. I could do it. Maybe I'll get my little sister to help out. She's more TikTok, so I could definitely solicit her, but yeah.
We have to come up with the TikTok or the copyright dance, I think.
Yeah, I'll video it from the background. CHARLIE BENNETT: Whatever dance we choreograph you have to have me in the background, just sitting. All right, we're running out of time, as always. So with TikTok-- so I said the thing about YouTube, it's just YouTube again. What are the larger paths with TikTok? Like, is this a problem that we can solve? I mean, is copyright and licensing something that we can approach differently and have it work out?
Or is TikTok going to be supplanted by another social media that has the same remix and licensing problems. Like, what do you thinks going on here? Yeah. I think it is something that can be solved. I think we just have to take a creative approach to it. So it's a question, how do we solve it? Is it through increased regulation, or is it a licensing mechanism?
And I do take the position and some people within the legal community that we have to kind of get creative, and sometimes more regulation is not the best answer. And so yeah, I think I am kind of optimistic. And originally, when I wrote my paper as well, I looked at TikTok as a way for artists to benefit from it. And so it's more of a way to reclaim and have control of your work.
Well, this sounds like something we should probably talk about again on another show. But for now, thanks so much. Our guest today has been Kristen Brown, public services associate in the Georgia Tech Library, and currently in law school. So thanks for joining us, Kristen.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's time for some music so file this set under KU 1104.B74.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
You just heard Labor by Lithics. Before that, Of All The Lost Followers by Department S. And we started with Breakaway by The Next Exit. Songs about valuing your creative labor and walking away if you have to.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Today's show is called TikTok Copy Rock. Focus of the show hasn't been the data security side of TikTok, but since that has been so much in the news, we should acknowledge it. We're running out of time, as always. So this is a lightning round. One sentence. Kristen, what do you think of this TikTok data security thing? KRISTEN BROWN: I'm in the middle. As a TikTok user, I like the platform, but I do understand the importance of privacy concerns and protection. Marley?
Everything I know about TikTok I know from my 16-year-old kid who hates it and wants it banned.
Fred?
It's all about user and data privacy. That should be the concern more than national security concerns.
OK. I think the government can do what they want with their own phones that they issue, but they better stay away from private citizens or there will be a revolution. Roll the credits.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Lost in the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library, written and produced by Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe and Marley Gibbons.
Legal counsel and a petition to bring back Vine were provided by the Burrus intellectual property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia.
Special thanks to Kristen for being on the show. She's right here, thank you. To content creators everywhere, to everyone who's ever done a wildcat strike, and thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening.
You can find us online lostinthestacks.org and you can subscribe to our podcast pretty much anywhere you get your audio fix.
Next week on Lost in the Stacks, we will talk about philosophy collections in libraries. Philosophy collections. We're going to have an actual, real life philosopher here?
I know. CHARLIE BENNETT: It's like a unicorn. They still exist. It's time for our last song today. Maybe one day soon TikTok will become the same kind of hellscape that Twitter has established itself to be, at least as we talked about a couple of weeks ago. For now, there's still a lot of fun dancing on it, so just make sure you credit the original dancers and let's close with a song about the powerful influencing force of dance. This is Dancing Machine by the Jackson 5.
Have a great weekend, everyone. It's a good way to start your weekend.
[MUSIC PLAYING]