Here's the campaign literature I'd like for you to distribute. It's rather exciting, isn't it?
Banning books?
Oh, yes. Did you know our libraries give children access to the criminal writings of such amoral libertines as Mark Twain? Frankly, I'd like to burn his books.
Perhaps you ought to burn these instead.
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You are listening to WREK Atlanta. And this is Lost in the Stacks, the research library rock and roll radio show. I'm Charlie Bennett in the studio with Fred Rascoe and Marlee Givens. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you are here for, we hope you dig it.
Charlie, I have a question.
Yes.
Our show title is not in the form of a question this week.
I know. Fred did not take my advice. He has decided to go his own way. And there are no-- there have not been questions in his show titles.
Well, blame Fred for today's show being called Classroom Libraries Under Siege.
I blame Fred for everything.
Well, you could say Classroom Libraries Under Siege?
All right. That works.
I'm going to continue to blame Fred for everything.
If you've glanced at the news lately, you know that book banning is back in fashion in a big way.
I don't like this at all. FRED RASCOE: Especially in Florida, where a certain governor with presidential ambitions is appealing to a populist base by being, quote, "anti-woke."
Mm-hmm. And one of the unfortunate outcomes of this drive to be anti-woke is that laws are being passed in Florida that could cause teachers to face criminal charges for having certain books in their in-class libraries. Many teachers in Florida have eliminated classroom libraries entirely.
A chilling effect for sure and one that is trying to make its way into other states.
And if you're thinking it can't happen here, as many people have thought before you, then maybe you don't live in Georgia or any number of other states where books about Black Lives or LGBTQIA lives are frequently challenged.
We'll be speaking today with someone who is right where it's happening now. She's the president of the teacher's union in Manatee County, Florida, and she'll tell us what teachers in Manatee County are concerned about and how they're dealing with new laws.
Did you just want to say Manatee County over and over again? Because that's the best county name I've heard all week.
I love it.
Manatee. Manatee. And our songs today are about the experience of young people, teachers and learners, and the Sunshine State, where you can find manatees. And let's start with a song about declaring you exist and that your identity is valid no matter the law. This is "I Was Born This Way" by Valentino right here on Lost in the Stacks.
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Hey. That was "I Was Born This Way" by Valentino. And this is Lost in the Stacks. Our show today is called Classroom Libraries Under Siege. Libraries held in individual public school classrooms have been under attack in Florida. Let's meet our guest to find out more.
My name is Pat Barber, and I am the president of the Manatee Education Association. We're the union that represents teachers and paraprofessionals who work in the schools in Manatee County, Florida.
So Marlee and I, we've been keeping up with the news. We see a lot that's coming out of Florida. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners are familiar as well. But just to get everyone up to speed, what's currently going on in Florida and specifically in your county, Manatee County, with regards to books that are being challenged in classroom libraries?
What has occurred is that in the 2022 legislative session, the legislature passed a law that impacted our school media centers. That law went into effect in July of 2022. Between then and December, the Department of Education wrote rules to implement that law. And in those rules, they brought the teachers' classroom libraries under the auspices of the media centers. So the rules that apply to the media centers now also apply to the classroom libraries.
And so in an effort to make sure that the classroom libraries were in compliance, our district asked principals to direct teachers to keep their classroom libraries out of the hands of their students until all of their books could be vetted and deemed appropriate for the students that they taught.
So these are books that teachers put together for their individual classrooms.
Correct.
Not the ones in the media center, as you said. The individual teacher selects and makes available materials.
For the most part, selects, purchases themselves with their own money, and builds over their careers. So trained, certified teachers who have been trained to know what's developmentally appropriate for their students spend their careers building their classroom libraries in order to help their students have a variety of reading material because part of what we want to do is build lifelong learners and create children who enjoy reading.
So these classroom libraries, we're not talking about 30 books. In some cases, we're talking about thousands of books in a classroom library.
And I've seen, and I know Marlee, you've seen as well, the pictures of these libraries. And speaking just in Manatee County right now, but things are going on all over Florida, there's cardboard over bookshelves, paper. Just these are not accessible to students anymore. And when you say the district asked your principals to put that into place, what do you mean? Was it just they're cautious because they're afraid of prosecution? Or what was the motivation behind that?
The motivation was to implement this new law that-- it's not really a new law. No adult can give any child pornography. Let's face it. It's a third degree felony.
Yeah. That's already on the books. Right.
Can give the child pornography. I mean, nobody can do that. And when I talk to teachers, they know they can't give children pornography. And it's not their intent to give pornography. But this law expanded the idea that everyday citizens are going to be coming into schools and looking for what is, in their opinion, pornography. So the definition of pornography in Florida law is very vague.
And it's caused a great deal of concern with teachers and media specialists about what somebody might come in, see in a book, and accuse a teacher of having pornography in their classroom library.
How does the situation in the classrooms compare to the media center itself? Does it look different? Are you seeing the same kinds of restrictions in the media center that you are in the classroom?
We have had 30 books reviewed in our district at the request of parents or citizens. And there are 30 titles, after being reviewed, that have either been restricted, that parental permission is needed for the student to read it, or some of those books have been removed from the shelves.
It seems like the targets of these books often have to do with LGBTQ themes. And so I mean, it just boggles the mind. Who gets to decide, based on that vague pornography law, what pornography is? Is it just going to be a very narrow discriminatory decision against LGBTQ material?
It's LGBTQ, and it's also novels that reflect teenagers' lives as they live them today, real life novels. Judy Blume. I mean, when I was in the classroom, we called them novels of initiation.
It's young adult fiction that teenagers love to read because it depicts their real life and challenges they face in real life, whether it's drug use, teenage pregnancy, the topics that they deal with every day that people who don't have children or their children grew up in a different time don't realize that that's what kids' lives are like now. And I've heard non-parents call those books filth.
You're listening to Lost in the Stacks, and we'll be back to talk more with Pat Barber about classroom library closures in the state of Florida after a music set.
File this set under F309.3.H4.
[COMPUTER BLEEPS]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHARLIE BENNETT: That's "Florida" by The Flat Five, a band that includes Kelly Hogan of The Jody Grind and Rock-A-Teens and other things around Atlanta. And we started that set with Kid Manatee, manatee, manatee, manatee, by Pearl and The Oysters. Those are songs about trying to find your way in the Sunshine State.
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Welcome back to Lost in the Stacks. Our guest today is Pat Barber, president of the Manatee Education Association, manatee, manatee, the teachers union in Manatee County, Florida. CHARLIE BENNETT: Manatee, manatee. In the last segment, we found out why teachers had to close access to classroom libraries. And in this segment, Marlee kicks us off, asking about the reactions to these closures and to the laws that precipitated them.
MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah, well, I had-- I mean, it's either one question or three questions. It's what are you hearing from the students? What are you hearing from parents who are in favor and want those books there? And then what are you hearing from other people in the community who oppose the bans, who oppose the censorship?
Well, I'm not hearing from students because they're not a constituency that I have access to. I have had parents contact me. And there are groups of parents that are statewide coalescing around an opposition to these issues. The common thing that should be happening is that these conversations about books and what parents-- that parents' own children read happen every day between a teacher and a parent. Those parents choose their child's book every day.
And that's integral to a child's education and their success in learning. Having someone who is not that child's parent decide what that child can read during his or her education is counterintuitive to a successful education.
So when someone from outside your relationship with the teacher decides that-- causes a decision to be made that a book is no longer in the school library, then that means if a parent thinks that that's appropriate for his or her child, you have to seek that book somewhere else. And from my own experience, there's nothing like banning a book to cause kids to be curious about what's in it.
You've talked about outside voices coming in to try to influence the argument. Something that I've seen lately are voices, like on social media, saying, oh, this isn't happening. Teachers aren't covering up their classroom libraries. But you're hearing from your teachers that, yes, I absolutely am doing this. And what's the-- I'm imagining that as the union rep, they're coming to you to say, what do I do? I'm experiencing this intense pressure. And then people don't even believe that it's true.
Well, it's worse than that really because people are saying that teachers are lying about what's happening. I got a contact from a conservative publication that showed me a statement from the Department of Education saying that I was causing panic and telling lies about this issue and that basically calling me a liar from the Department of Education. And how did I respond to their statement?
And my response is that what I am-- what I use for my talking points comes directly from communication from the Department of Education to the school district.
Now, wait a minute. Was that an actual-- was there some entity at the Department of Education that actually did say that you were causing a panic? Or did this conservative journalist make that up?
Well, she provided me with a statement that she got from the Department of Education, that she said she got from the Department of Education. It was not attributed to a person, the Department of Education. So and I never heard anything back from her when I-- my written comment was that I was using the Department's communications to the school district for my talking points. I never heard anything back from her. But yeah. So that's our Department of Education.
If you disagree with them, they call you a liar.
So what kind of consequences are teachers afraid-- they must be coming to you worried about consequences of just having a book in their classroom library.
They're worried about parents or outside people telling students to look for certain books and turning them in. I mean, they're worried that they will be set up to be accused of something. That doesn't mean that they will be prosecuted or convicted. But teachers' reputations, it's everything to them. If you're convicted of a felony, you're never going to teach again. That's for sure. Your license will be taken away from you. So this threat is serious.
And if the Department of Education is saying this is no big deal, this book law has been on the books for a long time, it's not a new law, that's disingenuous because people aren't going out there looking for books that they call pornography. The person looking for the book is calling it pornography. That doesn't mean it is. But it's a serious concern.
They just got the name of the book from a list from a conservative activist organization?
Bombs of Liberty, the Tea Party. In our county, the Tea Party is called the Patriots now. The Patriots are posting things, asking people to go out and look. Get involved in the schools. Go out and look for book titles.
Anyone actually, an official person, coming and vetting, or are they trusting that the teachers are doing their own vetting? I mean, how is--
Well, there's multiple things going on depending on what school you work in. I had an actual meeting with the-- where all of the media specialists were invited to a meeting. And we talked about what was going on and what their concerns were and how much extra work this was for them because in this law, it gives them the responsibility for all the books because it falls-- their library, classroom libraries, fall under their jurisdiction now.
So it's a tremendous added responsibility under the media specialists. Some principals are giving all the responsibility of vetting the books in the classrooms to the media specialists solely.
And I can see an opportunity-- or that's the wrong word. I can see a chance for that to backfire if someone disagrees with how the librarian vetted it. Then the librarian is in serious trouble.
Well, and the first vetting is is this book already in our media catalog? Has it has already been approved through the media catalog? So that's the first vetting. They're separating them as they've already been approved. They're in the media center. So that's the first approval process. Then you've got these other books that are set aside that have to be vetted and approved to be put into the media catalog.
But developing collections further, that's when things get a little sticky.
Correct. And any new book, any new book that's published that's exciting that you want your kids to read, it has to be vetted before it can-- before it can go into the collection.
You are listening to Lost in the Stacks, and we'll be back with more from Pat Barber of the Manatee Education Association on the left side of the hour.
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Hi. I'm Cicely Lewis. I'm a school librarian, and I love, love, love listening to podcasts. And you're listening to Lost in the Stacks on WREK Atlanta.
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Today's show is called Classroom Librarians Under Siege. This episode is focusing primarily on Florida because it's in the news right now. But Georgia may not be too far behind where Florida is. As reported by Ty Tagami in The Atlanta Journal Constitution, state law presently protects librarians at any school, college, or university from facing criminal charges for lending sexually explicit materials.
A new bill in Georgia, SB 154, which is headed by Senator Greg Dolezal, a Republican from Alpharetta, excludes school librarians from that protection. So this isn't a law in Georgia yet. My wife, Zoe Rascoe, has been on this show talking about her experiences as a public school librarian here in Atlanta. And when she was on, she talked about how important it was to relate to kids to build trust, which is so crucial in education. And kids today openly acknowledge LGBTQ realities.
They don't want to have to hide it like your parents' or grandparents' generation. It worries me that I live in a world where it's a possibility that one day, my wife could face criminal charges just for having a book in her school library collection. And something tells me the legislators sponsoring this current bill aren't too concerned with racy 100-year-old books by DH Lawrence but more with books that talk about two boys kissing. Oh, the humanity indeed.
Hey, Fred.
What if they were even trans? Oh, gosh. Golly.
Aren't DH Lawrence books about boys kissing?
Oh. CHARLIE BENNETT: Maybe metaphorically? I should probably read more DH Lawrence. File this set under Z657.L97.
[THE SHANGRI LAS, "LEADER OF THE PACK"]
Is she really going out with him? FEMALE SINGER 2: Well, there she is. Let's ask her. Betty, is that Jimmy's ring you're wearing?
That was "Real Animal" by The House of Love, and before that, "Leader of the Pack" by The Shangri-Las. See, I know where I am in the script now, songs about youth fighting against parents and authority.
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This is Lost in the Stacks, and we are speaking with Pat Barber, a former teacher and current president of the teachers union in Manatee County Florida.
So what role does the MEA, the Manatee Educational Association play, going forward? I'm not sure how the union works in your county. Is there a legal action? Is there labor action, some bargaining that takes place?
Currently, this is a law. Our members have to adhere to the law. There's no option for that. So currently, our job is to make sure that our members are informed and that they know what they have to do, not only what the law says, but what the rules that the district have developed.
And our other role is to make them feel comfortable enough that if there is an allegation, that we will represent them, that they will not be alone in trying to fight not to be convicted under this law because we provide them with representation. So we have the backs of our members.
Do you have a sense of how soon that could come to pass, like how soon a legal action might be brought? I mean, maybe there's already one in the pipeline.
I haven't heard of any. The reaction of DOE makes me think that they are tired of hearing about this. So if something were to change in the legisla-- I mean, I don't really know what's going to happen. Our state organization is going to be active in lobbying to try to change what got passed. I don't really know what's going to happen. It's hard for me to fathom that somebody is going to be charged under this law, but I know that the districts are going to be conservative.
But Sarasota doesn't have media specialists.
In the whole district.
No. They have these huge-- they've invested in huge collections of books and budget cutting efforts. They don't have any media specialists. So they don't have classroom libraries anymore.
Is this the first challenge-- because this is not the first book challenge. But this is the first book challenge that has reached into the classroom library?
This is the first book challenge that has happened to this extent. I've been teaching since 1973. And this is the first vast book challenge that I can remember. I had my own experience of being challenged over something I taught my very first year. I taught my first year in Miami. And the John Birch Society challenged the book that I was using with my students, which happened to be 1984. But that was kind of a welcome to education moment for me as a brand new teacher.
So it's not new, but it is resurrected, let's just say. It's a flashback.
Well, I'm sure. And I wonder if it just feels more-- if it feels like it has a heavier weight because it's a law now. Or is it because it just seems easier for these outside groups to target you? Did they seem more organized? I'm just wondering what makes this feel different.
It's different because classroom teachers in our state and many states, the authority and the ability of teachers to teach has been whittled away. This is just one of many things that causes questioning of the authority, the professionalism, the knowledge of classroom teachers. And quite frankly, it's part of what is causing us to have such a shortage of teachers in the nation. But in the state of Florida, we have thousands of classrooms without certified teachers.
And it's been going on since before the pandemic. It's been getting worse and worse. And so hardly a day goes by that I don't have somebody in my district call and ask, how do I take a leave? How do I quit my job? What do I do to retire? Because when that weight of the negative things of the job outweighs the positive desire to teach and help kids learn, then it's time to call it quits. People can't motivate themselves to do this work if that continues.
What keeps you-- what keeps you not retiring and fighting this good fight?
I'm no quitter. No. I just keep thinking that the pendulum has to swing back. And I would really like to be part of seeing that happen. I believe in the people I represent. I see the great work that they do every day and how much they care about that work and the children that they work with. And I just want to be part of seeing our profession revitalized and seeing their profession, our profession, restored. I mean, we have to go through a lot to get our license to teach.
I've had my teaching certificate for almost 50 years. It means a lot to me. My experience means a lot. And other people should realize that. But they don't trust us to build classroom libraries.
Our guest today has been Pat Barber, president of the Manatee Education Association, which is the teachers union in Manatee County, Florida. We'll be back with more after a music set.
And you can file this set under LB1775.L363.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MALE SINGER 1 (SINGING): My friends and I.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
That was "Teacher" by Jethro Tull, and before that, you heard "The Time it Takes to Make a Move" by Banned Books. Songs about teachers and learning.
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Today's show is called Classroom Libraries Under Siege.
Fred and Charlie, the interview ended--
Thank you for including me, Marlee.
Well, Fred was there.
That's right. You all were lamenting this particular--
But I'll include you too. I got so depressed at the end of that last segment. And but the interview actually ended with Pat lamenting that even after many years of experience, teachers aren't trusted to build classroom libraries. But then she said a little bit more. So I want to play one additional clip about trust and the rewarding experience of teaching students to read. So I want to just come out and say that I trust you.
And I'd like to know, if this were not happening and you were in the classroom and you were teaching with a book, what's been your favorite book to teach?
Oh, when I was in the classroom, I taught the kids who had the most trouble reading. And one of the things that I enjoyed was teaching classical literature to those kids because they had trouble reading, but they loved those stories because they had so-- the plots were so exciting once they understood what they were-- what they were about. Even though they had trouble reading them, they just enjoyed them.
So any kind of classical-- Shakespearean plays, seeing English as a second language students acting out Macbeth. It's just really an exciting thing to see because they would not be the best readers, but they would be so excited about that story. CHARLIE BENNETT: Here's to all teachers that help students get excited about what they read. And with that, let's roll those credits, Fred.
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Lost in the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta, the Georgia Tech Library, and a bunch of manatees. Written and produced by Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens.
Legal counsel and a book that is not pornography, no matter what anyone says, were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia. CHARLIE BENNETT: It's a good book.
Oh, the humanity. Special thanks to Pat for being on the show, to all Florida teachers looking over their shoulder. And thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening.
You can find us online at lostinthestacks.org, and you can subscribe to our podcast anywhere. I don't even know why we mention this anymore. It's just a podcast. It's out there.
Yeah. On the next Lost in the Stacks, we will talk to a law student studying the intersections of copyright and TikTok. CHARLIE BENNETT: TikTok copyright.
Time for our last song today. And yes, it is true. Classroom library bookshelves in Florida have been cleaned off in some places. Here's hoping that this ridiculousness doesn't spread to Georgia. And here's hoping Florida comes to its senses to get the books back on the shelves. So let's close with "Put the Book Back on the Shelf" by Belle and Sebastian, right here on Lost in the Stacks. Have a great weekend, everybody.
(SINGING) Sebastian, you're in a mess. You had a dream they called you king of all the hipsters. Is it true, or are you still the queen?