Heated Rivalry, Fan Fiction & AO3: Part 1

Silvan (00:00) Hi everyone. Welcome to Long Game, a heated rivalry podcast. My name is Sylvan and Declan isn't joining me today. However, in Declan's place, I have a very special guest. So I have Jen from the Book Refuge joining me this week. Now, Jen is a YouTuber and professional fangirl who has been doing YouTube since 2018 and full time since 2022. Her content is mainly romance focused, and I have just been having the most loveliest time connecting with Jen over the past few weeks and months, commenting on all her videos. So thank you so much for joining. us on the podcast, Jenn (00:43) Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. I'm a big fan. So it goes both ways. I'm very excited. Silvan (00:49) That's so sweet and having looked at a lot of your content I was like, Jen knows her stuff. She is and I know we said you are the professional fan girl but you are the professional fan girl. Jenn (01:02) For romance especially, that's what I'm all about. Any kind, any kind anywhere, let's go. So, very happy to be here. Silvan (01:10) Yeah, and how we connected was I think over Instagram and then YouTube and it was through the comments that we were leaving on each other's content. And it took me a while and this is how dense I can be. It took me a while to connect that the same person I was commenting on your videos on YouTube was the same person I was commenting on Instagram. Like it took me a while, but I got there. Jenn (01:30) Yeah. Yeah, I was a little bit stalking you guys, but it's all good. It led us here. So it's going to be fine. Silvan (01:41) Literally, the feeling is mutual. so what Jen and I are going to be talking about today is heated rivalry, of course, but also the fan fiction world and specifically also the A03 world, which is something that I'm not very versed in. And so I'm going to be picking your brains a lot about because it's something that I'm interested in and I got introduced to, but it feels like it's it's it's a big entity. So I'm glad to have someone like you. ushering me in. Jenn (02:12) Yes, yes. Yeah, I what's crazy too is I know that I know a lot about fan fiction. But even in preparing for this podcast, I was like, well, I want to have some facts and some references to share so that I'm not just going off my own memory. And there's just so much out there. And I just love seeing heated rivalry take off in that area, because when we get into it, has blow like in every area that it has taken over. It is also blown up in the fan fiction realm and that's just really fun to me. I love seeing that. Silvan (02:48) I love that you brought references because I'm an academic, so I love when someone gives me a good reference and I follow it down. I like facts and I like to know where I'm getting these from. So I love that you have references. Now, when we think about heated rivalry and especially, you know, the fan fiction world, I suppose I'm wondering how did heated rivalry sort of fall on your doorstep? Jenn (03:01) Yes. Yeah, this is so I love recounting this because this was one of the ones that I just absolutely fell face first, head first dived into because the fun part in looking this up is I had read one of the books. So in 2022, I did read Game Changer. And, you know, if people are following your podcast, they'll maybe know that wasn't your favorite book either, which not to speak for you, but I did watch those episodes. So I think. got the vibes and I felt the same way. So I read it in 2022 because I'd been reading a lot of M.M. Romance at that point for about a year at that point I've been and people like you gotta try this series it's so good. The newest book is just coming out in the series which was The Long Game. But I listened to Game Changer and I had some interesting feelings about it. Now looking back at my review of it I didn't hate it. But I think my actual thing was like, these angsty gay boys are a bit too much for me. I need them to get their stuff together. And I don't think I'll be continuing this series. So that's what I said after. Silvan (04:21) Interesting. Jenn (04:24) But then the next phase of that is, fast forward three years and in November, I found out about the series when HBO picked it up. That was the first I even noticed about it because a bunch of my friends started posting the trailer and one particular ⁓ clip was shared of the locker room. And I got one look at Connor's story and I was like, okay, y'all. What is this? I'm interested. I'm interested. What is this? So, but that was, yeah, it was before it came out, the week before, two weeks before it came out. And then everyone was, you know, once you watch the one, we all know what happened to our algorithms, just transformed. So I was like, okay, maybe I'll get it. And then on Black Friday, HBO had a deal. That was. $2.99 a month for the year and I was like, know what? There's this perfect excuse. I'll buy it for myself for Christmas present. And then when I got home from Thanksgiving, I watched the first two episodes and I was like. is this? Is this as good? Like, is the book this good? Like, I had no idea. And so I went and looked up the Heat of Rivalry book and I was like, my God, I read Game Changer and I didn't keep going. What? Because I then because I track everything right. I looked up the first time I read Game Changer and in the comments someone said to me, you got to keep going. Shane and Ilya are the best part. Keep going. And I was like, no, I I didn't like it, I'm not gonna keep going. There's other books I can read. And I quickly rectified that and read Heated Rivalry and then The Long Game. So no, I haven't read the books in between yet. I'm actually ⁓ thinking of kind of following along with someone who will do those. But I read Heated Rivalry and The Long Game and this was before we knew we were gonna get unrivaled. So when it was done, I was like, this can't be done. I am not done. And that led us to fan fiction where I will. Silvan (06:21) Yeah. Jenn (06:28) Pause now and let you say something. That's the back story. Silvan (06:31) No, that's so interesting because obviously you would have read Game Changer, which would have been episode three, but that wouldn't have been released at the time. So I think they only released the first two episodes. So you had no way of knowing actually what you read was coming in the next episode. So it's so interesting how all that kind of worked. think for Declan it was similar. I think he had read Game Changer a very, very long time ago. Wasn't the hugest fan of Game Changer and now having read Game Changer, I kind of see Jenn (06:48) That's right. Silvan (07:01) where he was coming from. But I think he did then continue reading the whole series. And so that's why he's got this amazing insight. And somebody left a comment, which is really interesting and funny about how Declan has to really hold back sometimes from spoiling some stuff for me, because I read so slowly and obviously. Jenn (07:03) Yes. Yes. Well. Silvan (07:24) I'm still in heated rivalry and so I'm really taking my time. So I don't know what's coming. And so I'm coming up with all these hypotheses and all these speculations and Declan just has to take a breath and just let me finish. And then we have to move on to the next topic. Jenn (07:38) Yeah, it's great. I love it. I do. It's honestly like it makes me so giddy sometimes because the amount of the episodes I watched where the words that come out of his mouth are exactly what I would say to my friend. I'm just like, oh my gosh, that is so it. And I have like his restraint is amazing to me because yeah, well, I should also interject in here too. Like it was after episode two that I read those books. Like, so when episode three then came out. Like literally I read Heed to Rivalry in the long game in the two days after episode two because I was like, you left me on we didn't even kiss. That is not acceptable. I need to know. So I was like, I even started Heed to Rivalry at part three. I skipped the first two parts and went to the next. Like I was like, I must know now. Silvan (08:33) Wow. And to your credit, you do read a lot of books and having followed you on YouTube especially, like you are getting, you're very prolific with your reading. And that's why I think you and Declan are so similar. That you can just really go through a book and it's not just you're not just reading it. And this is what I've come across in the videos that I've watched of yours. You're not just reading through a book and plowing through it as fast as you can. There's such nuance and depth in the reviews that you're doing and the way you speak about it. It feels like it's really taken you a while to be with the book and absorb the book, if that makes sense. Jenn (09:12) Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you. I'm a very character driven reader. So if there's characters that I fall for, I will just really try not to make inappropriate jokes. I will gobble it all up if there's good characters. And that's just, I don't know, there's just something amazing about how, I don't know, everyone agrees with me who's watching this, how Jacob Tierney did it so that I was so hooked on them. What was amazing to me is thinking on it now, I don't understand how I was able to just go into part three and I felt like I knew the characters already and read from there and I didn't feel like I was missing anything. I mean, I did of course go back and then read the first two and read all of it, read it many, many times now, but he really did get the essence of them down into those two episodes, the parts that were important that he wanted to do. And so even though... you know, and I'm sure you're saying like, Ilya and Shane, course, are different in their books. Like the parts that I think make me love them are what he showed. And the other stuff is all just how they're being interpreted and things like that. And I had just also never seen that before. So that's the next phase of this is that he is irrevocably, to use a Pride and Prejudice bingo word, ⁓ changed how I will look at adaptations in the future. And To me that is only to the positive for Jacob Tierney and everyone and to the detriment of Hollywood who has been fucking us over for all this time. Pardon my language, but they've been fucking us over and he exposed them with this is how I feel. He exposed them and their hypocrisy and how they talk down to romance readers. And to round out one other thing you said about how my analysis, it's always about the romance for me. Like I said, I... Silvan (10:49) right? Jenn (11:07) take romance very seriously and it gives me so much joy. And it's one of the reasons that I have not watched adaptations in years. And it really did take the eye candy to get me to watch this, to start watching it, which I know I'm not alone. But also because I've just dealt with so much shame from other people trying to shame me about what I love. And I just have no time for it. And so when an adaptation... literally sanitizes and strips the stuff that gets me passionate about it. I haven't paid to see an adaptation in like five, six years. I literally don't watch them. watched the Hating Game when I was homesick and I hadn't read that book so I was able to just enjoy it and everything ⁓ because I'm just so sick of the bullshit that is adaptations. They want the adaptation to do it and then they want to strip everything that builds a romance because they don't understand why I'm speaking from a woman's perspective why a woman wants to read a romance. They say it's internalized misogyny. They say it's you just want the smut. They say you're not getting what you're looking for in real men, so you want it in here. And I'm like, there of course is going to be examples of all of that that are true, but in general, you're missing the point. So that's why I take how I talk about romance so seriously, whether it is an orc romance. or whether it is these emotionally stunted hockey players or whether it is a romance, the craft of it is important to me. Silvan (12:42) And I'm sure a lot of people listening will resonate with what you've just said because there is a sense of we're taking this material, at least with Heated Rivalry, we're going to take it seriously. And you could see that from the very first episode. They weren't going to make it campy or make it laughable. They were going to take the material seriously. in a way, it's sort of informed. Jenn (12:59) Mm-hmm. Silvan (13:11) approach that Declan and I have taken to the podcast. We've taken this seriously and we've been authentic and genuine with it. We've laughed along the way, of course, but we haven't made the material laughable because it isn't. Jenn (13:16) West. Yeah. Right. Well, because it's still joyful. Like it's still joyful. so I, course there are going to be points to laugh at and, and, and be excited about, but that doesn't mean it's not like emotionally impactful. ⁓ and I just think, is a whole other part of my dream. I just think that the porn brain, and I don't just mean the actual stuff itself has distorted people's minds. so that they can't see emotional depth and intimacy anymore. And that is something I actively fight against. And again, not against the product that is that thing, but the mindset it gives people, that it's just like fast fashion or that it's just like, you know, we're feeding the dumb ⁓ plebes and they'll eat it all up and they'll say thank you. And it's like, you may make... the box office hit at the start if you put pretty people in your show. But that is not why people are obsessed with Heated Rivalry. It is not that it's just, you know, two guys fucking and we haven't got to see that clearly before. It's the emotional heat behind it and the intensity and the love that it's such a simple story, but they're doing it the right way. And that's why it's hitting everyone. It's really not a complicated story. It's all about the emotions that it brings up because It's the most important thing that there is, ⁓ love. Silvan (14:57) when you boil it down, And one of my sort of questions was going to ask you why you think the fans of Heated Rivalry are so, you know, they love this material, it's beloved, they're so passionate about this material and so passionate about elevating it as well and spreading it to people. Like the amount of people I would tell to, you you've got to watch the show when it came out in November of last year. And it's taken some of them up until now and they're like, yeah, I started watching them like now, now six months later, you're watching it. Like, I'm glad you're on board, but man, this train has been going for a while. Jenn (15:36) Yeah, yeah. I think the simplified reason for it, I would say, is that for me as someone who, as I have said, is a professional fangirl, what Jacob Tierney did is to give us permission to take it seriously. That's what he did. And we shouldn't need his permission to do that because, again, I've been taking romance seriously since I was 15. But it gave people as a whole permission. to look deeper into it. ⁓ And that is something that the other retellings of it, because that's what I call them, they're the adaptations that just take all the heart and all the fun out of it, ⁓ is because he gave us permission to take it seriously. And so I feel very proud of this ⁓ and very like, yeah, that's like, this will sound weird to put up like. That's the romance team that did this, because I don't want to say like my team. mean, there's so many more layers to this that I don't have ownership over, but the romance part I do. I claim that I wear that as a badge and he did rivalry being the ones that's bringing it everywhere. I think it just makes it even more acceptable because it's like, guys, it's gay romance too. So stop showing your nose up. Like, you know, there's so many layers to that. I don't know how to say that because That's how I feel is like I've wanted straight adaptations to do this before and they don't. And so I'm like, I don't care who does it. I want it and I'm going to be proud and excited about it, whoever it is. And they haven't been doing it. So I'm like, well, Jacob Tierney did it. So your move, you know, I'm like, your move, do it. Silvan (17:15) Yeah, and you talked about not having watched a lot of adaptations for a few years now. Are there any straight adaptations where you thought they got this really right from what you can remember? Jenn (17:29) I mean the only example that I give is Outlander, but that's not even technically categorized as a romance. It's as an epic, but it is. Like it is. The author herself at different times has been like shamed out of calling it a romance, but it's literally that is the only one that's been good. I've been watching that since for 10 years, but of new releases coming out, I don't watch them. So I truly can't tell you which ones there is. ⁓ Like is that? Besides the Hating Game and Outlander, I haven't watched any adaptations. ⁓ So I don't know. I'm sure there ones that are, and there's other channels and other people who they make it a point to watch all the adaptations. ⁓ But even an adaptation of Sense and Sensibility, that's actually the last one I watched on Netflix. And I got rid of my Netflix subscription after Sense and Sensibility because I was so offended, Sylvan. I can't even tell you. how pissed I was of what they did with sense and sensibility. Okay? Bride and prejudice made me happier than this. Like, cause that's fun. That's fun. What sense and sensibility was, we're trying to be an accurate retelling and they just can, it was so offensive to me. Anyway, heated over that. Silvan (18:48) Is that the one with Dakota Johnson that was released a few years ago? See, I haven't watched it, but it felt like they were breaking the fourth wall quite a lot with that. Am I imagining the same one? Okay, so I'm not, because when I... Jenn (18:58) Yes. Yeah. It's not a comedy. Sentence Sensibility is not a comedy. That's Emma or Northanger Abbey. And even Pride and Prejudice has funny parts in it. But Sentence Sensibility is, or wait, it's Persuasion. I'm saying the wrong name. You said the right actor. It's Persuasion. Sentence Sensibility was mine. It's Persuasion with Dakota Johnson. And that's one I meant. I'm sorry. Getting the mic's out. ⁓ Persuasion is not a comedy. It is a spinster who lost out on love, who's getting a second chance. And... Silvan (19:17) Yeah. Jenn (19:27) Yeah. Talking to the fourth row. I'm like, what is this? is in Mansfield park. Why are you talking to me? Why are you? anyway, see, I'll get, I love Jane Austen adaptations. Okay. Come on. Silvan (19:38) So when I think sense and sensibility, I think of the Kate Winslet one from like, is it the 90s? Yeah. I mean, you couldn't go wrong with Kate Winslet and Emma Thompson and they were just peak. Like it was just, and do you know when they, right? I feel like we could have like a whole other episode just on Austin, like just on Jane Austen alone. Jenn (19:43) Yes. Colonel Brandon. Come on, Colonel Brandon. ⁓ it's one of my comfort movies, so I adore it. ⁓ I Silvan (20:07) And so you talked about the fan fiction spaces earlier and I'm wondering what drew you to those spaces. Jenn (20:15) Yes, so my fan fiction journey is so much fun because I didn't even realize when I first got into it, which was in 2021 is when I got into fan fiction. So come back to that in a second. I had read some as a younger person and I didn't realize it. Like I didn't realize that after by Anna Todd was a real person fiction. You know, that's RPF something we'll talk about terms later, but I didn't know that's what I was reading. I had read some Clara Line, do you know what that ship is? Do you know that ship? Klaus and Caroline from The Vampire Diaries. I read a few of those. Very, very obsessed with those. And so I'd read some of those on Wattpad. I didn't even know what I was reading or what was happening or whatever. I read some of those. ⁓ Silvan (20:49) No, tell me. Jenn (21:06) And then it was many years later that ⁓ well and I did read Fifty Shades of Grey also didn't know that was fan fiction. My friends were just passing around I'd read that. So there definitely had been some you know ones that were getting pulled that I read and again I know we'll go to that. But so I kind of was aware of it. What got me into it this is being completely real now was this fan fiction called Manicold. Okay and I don't know if you heard of that in your research. Silvan (21:13) Yeah. Jenn (21:35) but that is a Dramini mixed with Handmaid's Tale fiction. And I didn't get into this because it was fan fiction. I got into it because one of my best friends was like, girl, I heard about this on TikTok and it's amazing. And so she did what I do to everybody and she spilled out all the things I should like about it. She's like, it's dark Draco, it's Hermione's in captivity, but she's lost her memory and like, well, and I'm like, what are you talking about? I don't understand. But she sent me the doc. which is, you know, it's like a thousand pages. And I just started reading it and I read nothing else for five straight days. Like I was reading it and in fact, I'll show it off. For my birthday when I turned 30, she hand bound me a copy of it. This is how thick it is. Silvan (22:13) Wow. So for people who are listening, Jehan is holding up something thicker than the Bible. Jenn (22:25) Yes, sorry. Silvan (22:30) Like, this is chunky. Jenn (22:30) And almost as important. Just kidding. But yeah, 942 pages is how long the found out but she handed this for me. It is so precious to me. I love that I cannot actually read it. It's just for me to look at. But she got me to read this and like I think will happen to many people and has happened in will. is once you get into a fan fiction, even if you have no idea what you've stepped into, you don't understand what's going on, you just know that it's giving you all the things you wanted, but an author never gave you, and is taking things that you already understand so it doesn't have to be explained to you, but these characters are kissing or killing people or falling in love with the people they're not allowed to fall in love with. It is so like, it just taps into you in a way that... I just can't put it into words. So this is how I entered the space in 2021, the December of, and I just, because I'm an official fangirl, we've established this, I was like, what is this? Get up out the way and let me dive in. And then in the next year, I think I read 50 different ones within the HP world, all different pairings. That's when I started reading slash fiction. which we'll discuss that definition. ⁓ And then also I read my first Drary fanfic, which is the Draco and Harry pairing. know, queer pairings and throuples and more than that are all over the fan fiction space. And I was like, my gosh, didn't know I needed this in my life. Let me read something with, ⁓ wow, I just forgot his name, Lucius and Jenny. And let me read Fred and Hermione. Let me read all of these things. Silvan (24:20) That's really interesting. You talked about Wattpad and I've definitely heard of Wattpad because my friend is a regular user. Is Wattpad still a thing or has everyone just shifted to AO3 now? Jenn (24:33) Right, so WAPHAT is still a thing. I have not touched it since I was reading those back, a decade now back. But when I was getting ready for us today, I did do some research on it. The thing that makes WAPHAT a little different is that you don't just write like fan fictions only there. You can also be writing your own stuff there. And the thing that makes that place a little bit tricky is that there are options to be paid for your writing there. though it's not supposed to be fan fiction, you can be paid for having fan fiction on a platform where you can pay for access to certain things. It's not the smartest thing to do. Get into the legalities soon. yeah, so AO3 is really the powerhouse because they've just went about protecting fan fiction there. And they have rules in place for it, also they have a legal team that protects stuff there. Like it's wild. So Wattpad, just, couldn't even speak on it. Maybe some of, you know, your listeners or viewers will have more to add about it, but I do know it's still around. I know people use it, but I do know there is a bit of like controversy or uncomfortableness. The fact that there are parts of it that you can pay for. ⁓ Whereas AO3 is donation based only and you don't have to pay for access to anything or pay to be on it or anything. They're completely fan funded and it's literally a like nonprofit type thing. So. Silvan (26:07) Yeah. And so for anyone listening who's like, and this was me up until a couple of months ago, what on earth is AO3? What does AO3 even stand for? Can you just like teach me? Jenn (26:21) Absolutely, absolutely I can. AO3 ⁓ stands for An Archive of Our Own, which is the 3 A's, ⁓ like Archive of Our Own. And it was started in 2008 and it's a non-commercial and non-profit site that hosts fan fictions, okay? Like millions and millions and millions of fan fictions for every possible pairing you can think of, in every language you can think of, just all of those things. And so it's a volunteer maintained and run completely on donations. And that's really what protects a lot of what goes on there. So like they have fundraisers quarterly. ⁓ In fact, they just had one that raised ⁓ almost $400,000. Yeah, it's nuts. ⁓ And so it's protected by the Organization for Transformative Works or OTW, which is the parent organization. And that's the nonprofit. that was established by fans to basically, you know, do the backend upkeep, you know? Like one of the things like there was recently an outage that lasted for like almost two days because there was like cyber attacks and stuff going on. And like, that's all fan funded to keep it running what they're able to do to keep it going. So that's kind of the basis of it. It's a site, but it's a nonprofit. And that's why it, you know, it's almost become that like the word of like, it's a... It's a, what's it called, a slip word in there of like AO3, like means fan fiction basically, but they are different things. Like AO3 is the site that hosts it. Silvan (28:01) That's really interesting because how I knew about it was through Heated Rivalry. so a lot of the friends that I was watching the TV show were like, well, have you read all the fan fiction on AO3? And I'm like, what are you talking about? I had no idea any of this existed. And so they were pulling it up on their phones and it's like 20 chapters in. I'm like, wait, this is legitimately longer than a book. And they're like, Jenn (28:06) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Silvan (28:30) Some of my friends have been reading, you know, fan fiction on, on AO3 for like five, six years. Like it's, it's, they're quite sort of, ⁓ what's the word I'm looking for? They're quite passionate about it they're quite, they're in deep, they're in deep. And so I'm coming along like, what's AO3? And they're all looking at me like, how have you not heard about this? Jenn (28:36) Right. Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, until someone introduces one to you, you know, they do, because that's kind of the thing that is kind of the tricky point is like, it's not like Fight Club, but it's close to being Fight Club, where like, if you know about it, you know about it. And it's also one of the things that I've tried to be very careful about as someone who is like talking about them. I am not reviewing fanfics. That's why I won't rate it. And I try not to. make any dispersions on the quality of writing or any of those things because that's so not the purpose of it. But because I'm a fan girl, I'm like, people need to know like I need to tell you about these things. Because some of the stories I've read there are well, and this is this is a point I trying make. It's the ultimate like death of the author. Because if there is a story that you I mean, either a don't like how it went down, but you really love the characters. and you want it, someone's written a fan fiction that does what you want. And they've made it, they've fixed it or made it better. And that does not take away from the author, but also it can if you want to. Like that's what I mean, is I'm like, if there are fandoms or stories that you just are uncomfortable with, let's say an author making money off of it anymore or something like that, who knows what I'm talking about. You can read fan fiction and that's completely of its own. And it's it's a. It's a free space, right? So there's so many beautiful things about it. Silvan (30:21) That's really interesting because as an author and I'm not an author, I don't write. an author has an idea for a sequel and somebody just so happens to have covered that type of idea in that AO3 universe. I can't even imagine what that does because that's already been explored by fans and there's been a response to it. And where does the legality sort of sit with something like that? Where people are taking the characters you've developed and, you know, thought of and meticulously thought of, and they're creating this whole other story. Jenn (30:57) Yeah, so I'll be honest, this is something I had to do some research on because I was curious about it. I've always heard the like, it's free, it's fine. It's a gift economy is what they always say that like, you you can't be making money off of fan fiction anyway, but then we see certain stories get pulled for publication. What does that mean? And then the thing, like you said too, of if, I mean, the perfect example of this is heated rivalry As I mentioned, I didn't know there was going to be a third Shane and Ilya book coming. And I just felt unsatisfied with where they were left at. And of course, fanfic authors are like, I got you. Let me give you a million scenarios. But then we get an announcement that Rachel's doing it. And I almost had this moment of like, my gosh, should I just stop now? and wait for this because I of course will honor whatever she chooses for them. But to me, like fanfic is so separate from that anyway that I'm not going to hold her accountable for the story she's going to choose to take, which is the true story. Like it is like they're her characters, what she wants to do. is. ⁓ However, there's just something so fun about it. But anyway, okay, let's get into the legalities. I'm sorry. I will go on a whole track with that. So the thing to remember about fanfiction or not remember to learn for the first time is that This really only became a big deal with like commercialization and like merch and like owning the entities of your characters Which we can you know very much blame kind of Disney for like there's a literally the fanfiction law like is like it's Disney's Thing you know like with owning their properties and stuff But some fascinating things I went into ⁓ research on, which I will share these ⁓ references with Sylvan, because I watched this amazing woman named Jill Bearup did this eight part series on how we are where we are today. ⁓ Because fan fiction only became like illegal to make money off of it very recently, right? Like going all the way back to when the printing press was created is when there started being copyright law. And that is when you had to be careful about how you were using characters that already existed, right? And it's literally called, I think, like Anne's law or something. Like I said, let me find, oh, the Statute of Anne is when copyright for any work that already existed was put in place as well as 14 years into the future. You couldn't take people's stuff. Well, that was in... 1710 that that was put in place, right? That's the first time stuff was copywritten because they wanted authors to be able to make money off of their books. So you couldn't like just make your own copy of it or something, right? That's the idea. Again, the actual technical references I will link. I'm using GenSpeak for this. But then ⁓ we go further into the future here. Silvan (33:37) Wow. Jenn (34:00) And now if you're taking those characters and making your own story and publishing it, you can get in big ass trouble, right? Because you're taking the copyright for that. So that is what the legal defense of fan fiction on AO3, like what they do there, because there's two like legal defenses for fan fiction. The work is transformative. So if you've changed it so much that it just doesn't. even really tie back to what it was before except maybe you've kept Shane and Ilya's names in it to use an example but they're like mermaid, merman now or something like right or the fan fiction is non-commercial so like those are the things that are important about it. So yeah that you know and again with Disney that more had to do with they wanted to make money off their stuff and so they they made it so that copyrights lasted what is it 120 years? Silvan (34:37) Mmm. Jenn (34:56) after the author died or something like that. Like it has this crazy thing now. So I think it's important to remember that is like that's what the legalities are is that as long as you're not making money off of it, there's really nothing any author can do. That's why, like I said, Wattpad, I don't know how they're keeping that legal over there and what the lines are because, you know, but it also comes down to like, an author really going to take you for all your worth if you are Joe Schmuel writing fan fiction that's just for kicks and giggles and you have a Patreon, you know, like are they really going to go after you? ⁓ But then the other thing you ask the question about, does that mean for an author? Well, that's why it's truly considered kind of a no-go space once an author becomes a traditionally published author to read fan fiction. you'll, they shouldn't be reading fan fiction of their own works because there was a case Of an author who had been reading fan fiction of her work and then one of her stories, and you know, it's one of those authors has like 18 stories in a series. And one of those stories was basically a fan fiction and she thought, you know, and I don't know, maybe really whatever, like you're writing stories of my characters and now I'm just gonna make it mine. And. Then that was the one way where the fanfic author could sue the author over what they did. Because she took her ideas about it and then tried to publish it. So that is the sticky thing you'll see some authors say is they're happy there's fan fiction being written about their work. It really only boosts everything. if they are, especially if they're still planning to write in that world, they really shouldn't be reading it. Though a lot of authors started as fanfic authors. We know this. Rachel herself has talked about that she did. anyway, I hope that answers some of the questions. Silvan (36:50) It's so fascinating because for me, I'm interested in how the minutiae works, how the legalities work, how does it work if you are a first time author and you're sort of delving into the AO3 sort of world to test out your stories, but then you pull it because you know you've got a book deal coming kind of thing. And so I'm sure there are dozens, if not hundreds of instances like this. Jenn (37:08) Yes. right. Silvan (37:18) These are the stories that I'm interested in. And I suppose you talked a little bit about how fan fiction is different from traditional publishing. You know, you've got these big houses like Penguin, Random House, all of these things, and you've got the money and the marketing behind it. And the intention is, I suppose, to sell the book to make money, of course, whereas in these fan fiction spaces, the intention isn't to make money. Is that right? Jenn (37:46) Well, it shouldn't be, right? It's that term that I mentioned earlier, the gift economy. That's really what it's supposed to be is it's, the stories have given you so much, and if you're creative and there's like, ooh, I wanna take the story this way, you're writing it as a gift back to the fan community that fills you up. So that's the most altruistic and beautiful way to look at it. ⁓ Really, I think where, things get quite sticky isn't even necessarily the people writing the fic because that's what they're wanting to do. It's the, I don't know what else to call them, the like the predatory thing of capitalism of people wanting to bind fanfics, make fanfic art that they shouldn't and selling that. ⁓ Because that's part of it too is, you know, that whole thing I mentioned about the copyright law, like you can't just take these characters that aren't yours and then print copies of those books and sell them to people. And what was happening, you know, particularly with the fit that I had showed, Manicold, that was a huge issue a few years ago, is these predatory people who were printing out copies and binding them and selling them, right? Like this was completely a gift, the one I showed my friend printed that bound the book herself, spent hours and hours on it and gifted it to me for nothing. You know, like it was a gift. And there's people who they try to skirt around it that, well, I'm just charging for the supplies that it took to do. Like there was all these things that popped up. There were these online presses that would make it, they were literally something that always existed, but now they were pushing the fanfic angle where like, ⁓ you can just upload a document and print it off. That's not illegal when like you're printing fanfiction and putting, you know, and also people's art that they've commissioned that is. You know, you can make fan art and sell that to people as a commission, but you also aren't really supposed to say like, this is Draco and Hermione and I'm selling it. You know, like you can commission, I'd like to commission a white haired, serious looking man who looks dangerous. know, like you can like, you know, but even that, like I have a heat of rivalry cover that I, that someone did for me. And like, they weren't selling the book inside. They were selling their view of what. Silvan (39:55) Yeah. Jenn (40:07) You know, they don't look like Hudson and Connor, so they're not selling their images. You know, they're just making something cool for people. yeah, it's very interesting too, because people can also bind published books, rebind them and sell them. That's legal. I have one coming that I bought for my birthday. That is a gorgeous copy of Heated Ravarie with the loon, with loons on the back and everything. It's so pretty. I was hoping it was going to be here in time to show you it, maybe for the next time. But that's legal because they're buying the book. Rachel makes her money off of the book and then they're putting a cover on it and you're buying their time to do that. That's not the same as a fanfic work that's supposed to be free and no one's supposed to make money off of it. And then you're binding it and selling it for $500 to someone. Like it is disgusting. That is not the cost of supplies. I know how much the supplies costs. Like that's not it. So it's... Silvan (40:55) Wow. Jenn (41:03) It's like I said, it's the it's the predatory thing of consumerism and capitalism is that you have hyped up fangirls who want it as a trophy for their shelf or whatever. And that's where it can get really sticky Right, because here's the thing with a lot of fan fiction authors could go after you for it. They could, but they usually don't because it's just in the zeitgeist now that if there is, we're going to get into this, think about it. There's 35,000 heated rivalry fics right now and more than every day. yeah. Silvan (41:31) No. Jenn (41:33) We're going to get into it. I wrote down the numbers, That is only lifting the excitement for Shane and Ilya and the show and the books and all the things, right? Like how many editions legally are there of Heated Rivalry out there right now? At least five, I think we're up to of ones. I've purchased three myself and there's more coming. So there's plenty of money flowing to the people that it should that the fanfic space should just get to be this happy and exciting space. Silvan (41:36) my goodness! Jenn (42:02) whether it stays that way. Silvan (42:03) Yeah, and why do you think heated rivalry itself lends itself so well to fan fiction? Jenn (42:11) Yes, well, first off, I'll say I have pretty much discovered that anytime there is a romantic pairing that anyone likes, it's gonna go nuts. One of the things I find interesting about Heated Rivalry, and I actually had to kind of think about this is really the only fan fiction I've read up to this point had been about ships that didn't exist is what I've been reading, right? Like again, Dramani doesn't exist. It's not a- Draco and Hermione aren't together in the books. We don't get them. ⁓ I had also read the OG one, which we could talk about the Spock and Kirk, like that's isn't a thing. So it's like make the fan fiction about it, right? Heated Rivalry is the first one I've read where it's a canonical ship that I still want more of. So for me, it goes back to what my experience was, as I mentioned in the beginning. I didn't know there was gonna be a seventh book. But when I was done, I was so into these characters. don't know. It's so weird about which characters get you and what don't. Like, I can't put my name on that. I just knew that I finished the long game and I was like immediately rereading it. I reread the long game three times in a row. I was just like, wait till you get there, Sylvan. Okay, Declan, your restraint is legendary, my friend. Wherever you are, sending you love because Sylvan. Silvan (43:32) I know, I know. And Declan does such a good job at not spoiling it for me when we talk. And there's probably like a hundred different things that he can talk about that he has to stop himself from saying until we get to the actual book. So I appreciate it, Declan, I really do. And I appreciate a lot of our listeners who leave comments and will say, this isn't a spoiler, you know, and they're mindful that I'm still on this journey. Jenn (43:33) Anyway. ⁓ You're wonderful. Yeah, But, but I finished the long game and well like three times and I'm like, and then one of my dear friends who ⁓ she's actually one who fed a lot of my fanfic, like after my friend who, who read Manacled, my friend never read another fanfic. That's the only one she read. And me, I'm over here like, why did you just leave us? Like, come on, let's go. with Heated Rivalry, I think it was just the emotional connection mixed with the show, mixed with the feeling the book gave me. I was like, I need more. And it has been, when did Longin come out? 2023 so it had been like three so I'm like, oh well this series is done. It makes sense. She ended it with that. I know she didn't really start it with them. It was the second book, but like she gave us this. We see where they're at. And I was like, I am not done with them. And so back to my friend who she's someone who I love her fanfic recommendations for HP and she shared some for Stranger Things and with Walking Dead. ⁓ And she was doing some Shane and Ilya ones. so particularly there was a fic that is, and these we'll get into some of our terms. This one was a post long game fic, and then it was a continuation. So it was like, what's gonna happen next? There was one called Next Chapter, and it was about the next 20 years of their lives or whatever. ⁓ Kind of written in the same way that Heated Ravery was, where there was time jumps to it. So it wasn't just like, it wasn't 300,000 words of everything that's happening for 20 years. And I was like, ⁓ that felt so satisfying. And next one. And then I just kept going, which led me to the AUs that I've read and all that other stuff where I went. But it started with me just wanting another like the next phase, is, you know, it's called next chapter, so it was perfect. And then when I was done, I was like, this clicked back into the part of my brain that loves fanfic and knows if there is any variation or change on the story that you want at all, somebody's written it. Okay, somebody's written it. And that has led me to, I've read about 60 different ones now, so. Silvan (46:08) That's amazing. And you talked about sort of like you've somebody's probably written it. And one of the things I came across is, you know, definitely using the tags and looking out for certain tags. And I think when I spoke to Ren Brown and Lizzie from the Shelfwear podcast, they talked about the tags in their podcast as well. And so how do people use tags to Jenn (46:19) Mm-hmm. Silvan (46:35) sort of demonstrate what they're writing about without spoiling it because I imagine some tags can be quite sort of explicit in what's going to happen. Jenn (46:44) Yeah, that's a really great question. I think to get into this, which I'm very excited to do, let's backtrack a bit about how a fic is set up on AO3, if that's all right. So this is all stuff that I had no clue about when you start. just like, I was mostly reading recommendation to recommendation. It's only once you start exploring for yourself to, as you mentioned, like find the thing you want to find. that you really learn what these things do. Because as it started, I just read the recs that my friend was doing. And that's how I provide recs, right? Like I'm sure you've seen on my Instagram, I do these fanfic rec posts. And that's me like telling you what this is. If this is what you wanna read, read this fic. If this is what you want, read this. And because AO3, it's not the most intuitive to you, know, because again, this is fan maintained, it's not the highest tech. And also there's so many variable things that you can change out. It almost has to be more analog so that you can make all those instead of, you know, it's not AI based. You can't just type what you want to get it. You have to kind of use your brain to get to the goodies, right? So when you look at a fic, at the top of it, it'll have these main categories, which will lead us to the tags, but you have to kind of go and order them. There'll be the explicit rating. Well, explicit is what? There'll be the rating. Explicit's often what we're for. It's not the only option, I promise. If there's any archive warnings, which include if there's violence or assault or major character death, there is the category, which by category, they'll mean what type of pairing it is. So if it's slash ⁓ F slash F, if it's poly, if it is, you know, if there's multiple relationships in the story, then it'll have what fandoms are included. So this will be for the for heated rivalry, there's generally two right now there's heated rivalry TV. So it'll have in parentheses if it's, you know, because think of like Game of Thrones has TV and book, right? Outlander has TV and book. Silvan (48:44) Yeah. Jenn (48:46) And for Heated Rivalry, there's Heated Rivalry or Game Changers series by Rachel Reed are the two different tags that'll be for that. Then you have what the relationship is. So in this case, it would be Shane Hollander slash Ilya Rosanoff. And whether it has a slash and it indicates if it is romantic in nature, it doesn't have to be sexual. Because again, if it's not explicit, it doesn't have to have NSFW content. But if it's a slash, it means romantic. or if it is an and, it is a friendship or parent, child or whatever. And then we have what the characters are involved. So this will then usually reiterate what the couple is. So it'll say Shane Hollander, Elliot Rosenoff, Scott Hunter, Rose Landry, like however many characters are in it. And then we get to what the additional tags are. And this is where you can be as succinct as you want or as broad as you want. And that is where it can get really fun. So. The main kind of ones you'll see, we'll come back to this in second. They'll also then be what language it's written in and then it's stats. So those are all the main categories. Back to additional tags. Okay, so this is where it gets fun. So basically when they are, when you're tagging a fic, it usually does get pretty specific. So you'll want to put kind of the most broad ones at the top so that if people don't want to be spoiled for content, you can just kind of read those first and then. stop. You know, you can because they'll literally put in these sometimes what type of sex positions we're dealing with, what type of dynamics you're dealing with. If there is the like, what's a fun one people will put in there, they'll be like, fuck the commissioner, like we hate it, like they'll put in these really specific tags. Jenn (50:30) So then we get into the more fun tags that everyone is looking for. So there's AU, Alternative Universe. There is post book six, The Long Game, which that's a long tag, but that'll mean everything that happened in the story was still canon, but it's picking up where that ended. ⁓ A lot of people's favorite ones for this is married Shane and Ilya. That's a tag everyone really likes. There's Ilya Rosanoff loves Shane Hollander as a take everyone really likes. ⁓ And then it can start getting really specific about what people like. So yeah. Silvan (51:05) I love the specificity because if it's something that you're looking for in particular to almost scratch an itch, you can go specifically to that author or to that chapter, for example. And so I can imagine though, there are sort of, there's, and I'm not sure that this pertains to the heat of rivalry fan fiction that exists, or maybe it does, I don't know, but where there are certain fan fictions that displace violence or something like that. where it can be very, very specific with those tags, right? Jenn (51:38) Yes, correct. one of actually my, one of actually, well, I'll just admit it. I like seeing them go through stuff. It's, it's just a thing. We are all like, Oh, they better give them an HEA and then you go to fan fiction. It's just like, devastate you. We're gonna hurt you. So really the ones I really want to weed out is a, it has to have an HEA still. I'm still in for the romance. So if you're going to put my boys through something, it's gotta be done. Right? We got to finish it. but they can have archive warnings for assault and for, like I said, major character death or things like that. And so those are very important warnings to have. But there is this one tag that everyone's gotta be aware of. And this comes in the warning part that's called ⁓ writer chose not to list. So that can mean anything can happen. And then you should really check the smaller tags and see like, okay, what are the warnings they're saying here? Are they gonna surprise kill someone? So there's also a tag you wanna look for that says, angsty but has a happy ending. I'm always looking for that take because if you're gonna, you know, and also major character death, well, who's majored you? Are you killing off Scott Hunter or are you killing off Ilya? Because one's not an H.E.A. you're killing off him, okay? One of my favorite variants right now, like I've literally there's a fic that it will be in my top reads of the year, which is very sticky for me because again, I try not to rate books, but it's in my top book. So it has a rating in my heart, even if I'm not I'm not, you know, ⁓ I really am more like don't give negative ratings to books. But there's this one called Miracle. It's a bit called Miracle. Yeah, I'm going for it because it's a plane crash AU. Okay, that is one of my favorite tags. Okay. Now, this is very difficult to talk about because I there's something to do with the plane involved. And I maybe you've heard that out in the universe. But in book two, there's something to do with the plane or not book two, book six, there's something to do with the plane. Okay. try not to spoil it for you. I'm like, there's something to do with a plane and everything is fine with that plane though. Let me just say that's fine. But one of the alternative universe, right? The alternative universe. So this is not canon, so this has not happened, not at all. But in this version of the story, Ilya's plane crashes and everyone on the plane dies except for him. Right? Doesn't that sound awesome? Silvan (53:35) I appreciate it. Thank you. You know what? This is giving me Grey's Anatomy PTSD. Like... Jenn (54:02) Well, it's a lot, okay? And I know that just sounds horrible. But, but the way that this fic plays out, I was absolutely riveted for the whole time through because it's set mid, mid book six. So like Shane and Ilya are together, but they're a secret. And then all these people have died and like Shane is his like partner, right? So he's like... I need to be there for Ilya, but now to be there for Ilya, gonna have, like, I have to out us. I have to make this decision without him, because he is in a coma from his injuries, and it's Shane having to do it. I've read plenty of the fics where Shane's hurt and Ilya's like, okay, we're being outed now because I am not going back to work until my partner's okay. Which we would believe of him, right? We would believe of him, for sure. But in Miracle, he literally, Ilya gets lifted up as almost this like, you know, well, Miracle, it's called Miracle. And he has to go to like every funeral and talk to every parent. And the commissioner wants to build a brand new team around him. And he just wants to curl up into sadness. you know, how would you like, there's all these characters you don't know yet, but characters we love who are dead. And that's a traumatic, okay, I understand. Not everyone wants to read that story. And they're probably like, Jen, what What is wrong with you as I'm talking about it? Silvan (55:25) This is what my face is demonstrating. I'm like, why? Why are you reading that? Like, that just sounds so horrific. Like, we just spent so many books trying to get them to this good place and now this fan fiction just destroys. It's almost like Grey's Anatomy with the Playing Cash meets Lost. Jenn (55:45) No. But what's great about it is that Shane is there the whole time helping him through his healing journey. He has to get over any any struggles he had with them being out. They're done. I mean, they're not done, but he is like, well, no one's going to hear about him because I'm going to be there for him and his therapy and his like mental health that he's there like physical therapy and his mental health that he's there for. And also how Shane's parents are like, they're not. Yeah. Shane's parents are like, This is our son, Ilja. Okay, we are looking out for him. And that will always slay me like whenever I get to see. ⁓ Sorry, I can't go down the spiral, but there's also a fic where it's from Una and David's point of view. And it's smart. Silvan (56:28) see that I would read. Jenn (56:33) You have so many books you have to get through, but it's a fic and it starts, let me tell you, it starts with the dinner that they have and their fic, it literally starts, the first scene of this fic, Sylvan, is when Shane is outside with his mom and David is inside with Ilya. That is the first scene of it. Silvan (56:33) please. Declan and I have talked about like, what do think David and Ilya are talking about when Shane and Yuna are outside? Like, this is the stuff where it starts from, right? It's the what if and how would this happen? And I can see sort of, and what I've come across is people are such good writers. Like, just because they're writing fan fiction doesn't mean they're of lesser quality. If anything, you know, this is high quality stuff and they're spending Jenn (56:57) media. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Silvan (57:21) hours and hours on this. And for people to be unleashing this into the universe for free, just blows my mind because we live in such a capitalist society. But I wanted to ask you about when things don't go the way they're planned. Jenn (57:33) then. Silvan (57:38) And one of the sort of roots that I went down through my friend's experience was with Opal Apparition, who was the author. Now I know Wolfbird is the name of the art that they created. And so I wanted to ask your take on what happened there because almost the drama with that, and I don't mean drama in a bad way, but drama in what happened, almost made me want to read it more. Jenn (58:06) Right, right. So this is so interesting and this actually works so perfectly with something else. So one of the other things that is ⁓ very important about the tags and I somehow walked over this, there's also this little section that tells you whether a is completed or not. Okay, right? Because they're posting as they're writing usually. And even if a fic author has written the entire fic and then it's maybe posting as they edit each of their chapters, people take this very seriously. Okay, so they're not. Some people just write blind and put it up. That is absolutely fine. Not to some people they've been writing fics for years and they have a process they even have beta readers for their fics. You can trade beta reading and the way that this involves opal apparition and the wolfbird fic is that I started hearing about the wolfbird fic pretty much as soon as I started reading it right because in the same way that I keep referencing like manacled is one of the most read fics in the HP universe wolfbird is like that for heated rivalry already right the heated rivalry. ⁓ Tag exploded from this. only know because someone else captured a picture of it. There was about 10 to 15 thousand fics that were written just based off the books Okay, so there was the game changer tag that was just based off the books So the heated rivalry fan fictions were already being written just based off the books and then when the show came out it exploded Okay, I would prepare these notes for our discussion about a little while ago there's already 6,000 more fics than since the last, like, cause I just did an update this morning. So it's currently at about 35,000 fics that are under the heated rivalry TV tag. And there is 19,000 under the game changers tag and everything. So that's crazy. So of all of those fics that are written, they can be in different, like those are unfinished. Those are one shots, which one shot is a term that it's a single chapter, usually under 10,000 words fic. where maybe there's just one scene that's in the fic author's head that they want to reimagine or whatever, to all the way up to the fics that are like miracle. The one I read that was 700 pages, right? Like it was an epic. There's multiple parts to some of these fics like their own little series they're doing. So when I was getting into it now, you know, I read next chapter, my friends giving me recommendations and I hear about Wolfbird. Now Wolfbird, ⁓ has anyone told you what type of AU it is? Okay, ⁓ okay, so Wolfbird is in AU, an alternative universe, where Ilya is a sex worker and Shane is going to see him, ⁓ which I haven't started reading it so I've stayed a little ways away from it because I was waiting for it to be finished but Ilya is a sex worker in this fic and Shane is, I think he still isn't hockey in it, I could be wrong actually, but either way he starts seeing this Silvan (1:00:33) Not yet. Jenn (1:01:02) sex worker Amelia Rosenoff, which you're like, wow, that's interesting, right? But this fic is in, it is the number two most watched fic under the tag, right? So the number one is this one that actually was pre TV show. So, and it's in the teen level, which that doesn't mean it, they're teen characters. It just means there is no sexual content in it at all. So it's only yearning and everything, which is all fun stuff. But the number one fic is this one called from back and forth from New York, which has 1.9 million hits, which that means how many times people went to the main page of it. And then Wolfbird is second only to that with 1.7 million hits. And that's an unfinished fic, okay? Which is a big deal because in general, are a lot of us, myself included in this one, who I don't read a fic until it's done. until it gets the little green check mark, which if you've ever looked at a fic on A03, you'll see there's this little box up in the corner that shows you the, ⁓ like if it's MM, F, F, MF, whatever, it'll have, it is explicit, mature, teen, whatever, and then it'll have the finished status. And if it doesn't have the green check mark, that means it's still being updated and I don't do it, okay? I'm sorry, I know there are some wonderful ones out there that are in, but until it's done. I ain't doing it because I've been burned before. Okay, I have a list. You know, once that happens to me once I'm like, it's one thing if a series isn't completed. But when the actual book isn't completed, I just can't do it. I know they're not a book. I know there's all these things. But I don't do that. That's a whole other etiquette thing that people get into. I just don't. So land the plane. Here we go. So Wolfbird was started in on December 5 by Opal Apparition. And they were doing a like bi-weekly drop. So every 14 days they would drop a chapter and people are feral for it. Okay. ⁓ I even have a thing. says Shane Hollander is a clause hockey's closeted golden boy. And you start seeing Ilja Rozenoff who is a professional Dom. So that's what it is. He's going to see him at second. Right. And I was like, Ooh, interested, but I'm not going to read it yet. Sylvan, every post I make about fan fiction, someone's like, when are you gonna read Wolfbird? And I'm like, well, when it's done. And then guess what happened. As you said, the drama on April, I wrote it down for us on April 13th, Opal did a post on the fic on chapter 14, as well as on threads. And I guess probably on X Twitter, whatever, I don't go on there, that they were going to be pausing their updates. They said they weren't going to stop writing it, but they were gonna stop doing like doing the updates until they were fully done writing it and then they'll drop the rest because of all of the hateful commenters, AI allegations, and the rabid fandom around this fanfic author. And it's absolutely nuts to me. I just, I don't understand it. So like I can share with you what the drama was and why they did it, but I don't understand it. I will never understand why you're attacking someone for posting their work. claiming their AI when they've been writing fanfic for years. Like this isn't Opal's first fandom. They've been writing in other fandoms too. these allegations that are coming out are just wild to me. And then Opal, because this is for free, this is a side gig. Why would you want, you know, even if they don't know who you are, because you're anonymous, if every place that you post, you're getting these hate comments about like, write this faster or give this faster or. I don't like how you're doing it. Like that's a whole other level of drama that, you know, at least an author in general, they have finished their work before they hand it to people. And so if people are going to attack your work, it's like, well, I'm finished writing it. So now it's in your hands, do what you want. That same death of the author I mentioned for what gets us into writing fanfics is not the same type of like Liberty or, or I'm trying to think of the right thing or freedom that is offered to fanfic authors, because these are characters people already have so many opinions about. And your work is already a derivative work of someone's not that that's okay, be amazing, as I have said, but people just how relentless that would be when your work has 1.7 million hits, okay? 1.7 million, that's insane. So that's kind of what happened at Opal basically was like, saying to people like I'm not gonna stop writing but now only my friends are gonna read it until I'm done. That is basically what she said they said in some of the other posts. ⁓ And yeah, so I don't know. It's wild, man. It's wild. Silvan (1:06:03) Do we know if they have released any further chapters or are they still standing with that? Jenn (1:06:09) No, they've I believe they've released in some of their other fics because so they actually have a thing I do want to read because it's finished where Shane and Ilya are astronauts. And so it's like a Canadian and Russian astronauts who end up, think, on the space station alone together. So they have, I believe, released some other I mean, talk about another rivalry to that's it. That's one. And then. Silvan (1:06:19) Okay, interesting. I mean... Right? Jenn (1:06:39) but they aren't releasing more of that until they're done. And this is a whole other side thing too, like I said, of like why I don't read fics that are unfinished. Because though I have so much empathy for the just stupid hate that this person is getting, but I also am a practical person where I'm like, well, I wanna read your story. And if you're never gonna finish the story, whether because people chase you away or whatever, I'm sad that they did that. But also, I'm not gonna start your story until I can read it. So I was kind of like, yeah, everyone who's telling me I had to start reading it, joke's kind of on you because I've seen this happen before. I've finished it. Silvan (1:07:16) Yeah, yeah. And literally, though, I remember having dinner with one of my friends and the meltdown that ensued from this, I think it was a thread post or something that they read. And I'm looking at him like, what happened? And she was legitimately upset, like genuinely upset. And I mean, I don't know if you can class it as sorry. Jenn (1:07:22) Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's where you throw it. Well, I've heard it's so good. again, the people who are already reading it, if it just stopped because the author is like being hurt, I would have been even so much more mad. I'm just kind of horrified as an observer to it who's like, this happens to all nice things. We can never have nice things. Silvan (1:08:00) In the words of Taylor Swift, this is why we can't have nice things. And I don't know if you would classify it as cyberbullying or what this would come under, but there was just, from the sounds of what my friend was telling me, there was so much hurt and abuse online hurled at this author who's publishing their work for free, essentially. It felt like it was unwarranted. And we've seen this in other spaces, especially in the heated rivalry universe. There are a lot of fans who have been very parasocial with their relationship with Conestory and Hudson Williams and really made that sort of difficult to watch sometimes because of the comments that are left or the ships that have ensued. And it just feels unnecessary and it's such a Jenn (1:08:48) Yeah. Silvan (1:08:55) pity that it only takes because it's not everybody, right? It's a very small minority of people. And but that's what gets magnified and projected to people, you know, who aren't in the fandom, for example. And they're thinking like, these people are too intense. These people are crazy. These people are rabid, for example. And it's it is a shame. It's such a shame. But I don't know that. I'm sort of trying to be very careful with the words I use because anything that we get that's nice, it turns sour to a certain extent because of the people consuming it. Jenn (1:09:30) Okay. Yes. hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's that is something so interesting to me as like, I mean, it's not like I'm I'm only 33. I say only because lots of life left to go. But I've been in a lot of fandom. Well, that's why I'm like, I'm I don't want to say like I'm an old hat at this or anything. But I've been in fandoms of things since I was 12. So 20 plus years of it now. And I remember seeing how crazy things were. Silvan (1:09:52) It's a baby gen. Jenn (1:10:07) But because like for the Twilight fandom, for those actors, I remember I literally watched a documentary on that and I was like, wow, this was 20 years ago. And just how it kind of like wrecked these people's lives for a while, even though it is the thing that also gives them life. Like I know that's, you know, but it's literally the thing that gives them this. And I see that a lot in, you know, I see that I feel I feel like I should say that of the actors where they're so grateful, but it's also like, but that doesn't mean you owe people everything. And that's such a hard balance because... So this was something I wanted to find a way to bring in. I think this is a good place because part of the reason why I have went so hard into the fan fiction stuff and I'm loving it is it actually keeps me from getting too parasocial because I put all my attention onto Shane and Ilya. My attention and my obsession is on Shane and Ilya and they are fictional. I can be as obsessed with them as I want. And that's not Conor Starr and Hudson Williams who in all honesty are eight and nine years younger than me. And it feels a little weird for me to be obsessed with them. I'm just being real. I don't want to feel that way ⁓ about someone that much younger than me. It feels weird for me, for me. I'm not judging any of the cougars out there who feel like they got a shot or want to feel that way, but I'm like, no thanks. But I can feel that way about characters and also they're gay characters. There was never a chance for me anyway, but I can have as much fun with it as I want, read as many stories as I want. And then also just be happy whatever Conrad and Hudson are doing and I want to watch them and other things. I'm very excited about it. I'm probably going to end up watching a horror movie for them, which I hate horror, but I will watch it for them and support them. But it keeps me from being parasocial the way I see some people being because to me, I don't know. And again, maybe this just is because I have fanfiction in my head and I remember fandoms from other things where like that is a place I'd rather put my energy and excitement then onto real people who a can never live up to your expectations anyway and B they have better things to do See, I'm never gonna meet them or have a real conversation with them in real life And it's not my business to like I don't need to that's not my place to do and I just don't think all People in a younger fandom generate and sometimes older than me too. Cuz again, I'm not saying that it's only a younger class of fans. It does feel like it's that way. ⁓ Because I feel like the box in our hand has erased some propriety and has erased some dignity that some people can have because you can so easily comment on them or feel like you can touch them with social media. Where as when I was a kid, I bought in the magazines and I listened to interviews, but I was never expecting to be able to get my hands on Robert Pattinson or something, nor would I. Should I? Right? But I think fans like have erased that distance so much and because of all the reheats and all the interviews and all the cute sexy fun things they've done, the magazines, like people are just, they don't have the distance that they should have anymore. And for me, fandom is that outlet where fan fiction is the outlet of the fandom where I'm like, I can be as obsessed with this as I want. And I'm not like putting my hopes and dreams into a real person, which is again, they're not. Connor isn't Ilya. He isn't. I think people forget this even when they hear him talk and I'm like, that is not a magical Russian to you. That is a boy from Texas, a hunky man from Texas, but he still is not there to fulfill your every fantasy. But fan fiction, fan fiction can as long as you remember that it's fiction. So anyway, that's my thoughts. Silvan (1:13:51) Yeah, and in a way it sort of centers it back to the characters and to the art and takes away from all the other stuff. And for the most part, when I've gone to your videos on your channel, like people are genuinely lovely. I think what you have done there is you've cultivated this community that is banded around, you know, this collective positivity, this, you know, and you can read and you can genuinely really see that. So what you've done is actually quite a feat in today's YouTube age. Jenn (1:14:00) right. Yeah, yeah. Well, I thank you so much. I mean, that's literally my goal of what the book Refuge was when I started it. When I came up with that name, it that really is what it meant for me. And it meant that it was a safe place to talk about romance and where we will be respectful of one I've read 5,000 romance novels in the last 10 years or that I've read all types or that I really think about how I am engaging my mind and expanding what I read. Like I used to be afraid to read gay romance because I thought it's not my place, right? That's a whole journey. I was afraid to read it because I'm like people will be like, what the fuck is this girl talking about? You know? Silvan (1:15:08) Can I ask you about that? Because I, unlike Declan, Declan is very versed in the M.M. sort of romance sort of literature. I'm quite new to it. So I come from, you know, like I did English A level and English literature, and I come from the Jane Austen's and that's what I read and Shakespeare and, you know, Frankenstein, like those are the things that I was reading. And so coming into this genre, it's been really interesting because Jenn (1:15:10) next Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Silvan (1:15:37) And this is a conversation I've had with Declan whereby I was surprised initially about how much of a large proportion of the fans are comprised by women of all different types of sexualities and pronouns, of course. And I looked to my gay male friends and I'm like, are you guys watching Heated Rivalry? And they're like, yeah, no. And I'm like, what, you're not? Like, who else is watching? Jenn (1:15:49) Okay. That was so surprising. Silvan (1:16:07) Right, and so I'm... Jenn (1:16:07) I've heard you say that on it. And I'm like, what? Silvan (1:16:10) Yeah, and I think a couple of them have caught on now, but they're not like reading the books and reading the fan fiction and consuming the TV show in the same way I felt I was at the time. And so what I want to ask from your perspective, what has it been like Jenn (1:16:25) Yeah, and it is interesting because I've, I felt this way about a few different, I feel feels weird to make that a sub genre within romance. But I've also felt this way about diverse romance too, that I couldn't offer an opinion because no one would want to hear it. And so I really stayed away. And then it was actually one of my dear friends who She's a bit older than me, but she's like my bookish big sis is what I call her. She's wonderful. And she gave me this perspective as someone who's very learned and not just romance, but all is that particularly as someone who grew up in a very like isolated conservative area, the only way I will get some lived experiences is through fiction. ⁓ And that's just as a broad hole in general before we even go down to romance. And so to be afraid to read that is really to purposely keep myself ignorant, ⁓ to experience other people's lives and how they go from day to day. I just, it wouldn't be a, well, and like purposeful ignorance is kind of a weird way to say it too, because it wasn't out of a like, ⁓ I don't want to read this thing. It was a, I just didn't have access to and or didn't know I should and or didn't think I would enjoy, right? And so romance is really the entry point for all of the diverse type of reading of all kinds that I've read because I'm just looking for a really good romance. And when I had someone first recommend a gay romance to me, I actually hope this will come up because I wanted to shout out this book called For Real by Alexis Hall was one of the very first. I even went back to my Goodreads to find what is the first gay romance I read. I'd read one other before that, but it was a MMF where they end up leaving the F to just be together. And that was kind of a twisted one. But the very first MM romance I read was because I was looking for interesting dynamics in a relationship. And Alexis Hall has this book called For Real, which is a, I mean, it's a BDSM romance where the submissive is the veteran and the dom is brand new. And I just wept through that book because it was just all about expectation and what feeds our desire anymore and what is the point of sex for some people. But that had nothing to do with the genitalia of the characters in the story. It was all heart and just beautiful and I cried so much. And then I was like, my gosh, this is a whole new sector I get to open now. with all these new dynamics I never heard of. And again, as a romance reader first, that's just like having your, it's the same way when I first dip into fan fiction, I'm like, this is a whole new avenue I can try. So yes, I was like nervous, but it also was just more of like, I didn't think it was something I was allowed, like really like allowed. Cause I was like, well, because I review books, are people going to want to know my opinion on this? And maybe if I wasn't in a public reviewing format, I maybe would have got there sooner. Cause it would have just been for me and I can read whatever the hell I want. But because I review everything I read for the public, was like, how can I offer an opinion if this isn't my lived experience? Well, the answer is, again, it's love. I can discuss the love and what that means. And through this story, which Alexis Hall is a gay man, so that one, it's great that one of very first I read was a, you know, own voice story. ⁓ You know, that's a whole other realm I can. ⁓ explore and that's the same way when I first started reading black romance too. was like, well, I can't offer an opinion on this. I'm like, well, that's silly Jen because you can't offer it on the lived experience of a black woman, but you can talk about the romance and the love and how the characters connect. that's, mean, and gay romance was just a whole other thing because as we've talked about with ⁓ Heat of Rivalry, it's like, well now you have two emotionally constipated people and how are they going to finally break through and discuss this stuff? and yeah, I've just found that fascinating through the years. So yeah, that was my first one. And then like I do with everything, I went on a deep dive and just immediately started reading it. And so it was fun because I went back through actually Declan's Instagram and I was looking at a bunch of his reviews and I was like, read that one. read that one. I want to talk to him about that one. like I was going through all of these. So we love it. Silvan (1:21:00) And Declan is just so prolific in a way that you are with how much you both read and how much you review and put that content out. And I was really touched when you talked about this opening up a whole new world for you, because in a way I feel like coming into the sort of MM romance genre, I'm like, I hadn't read books about two men in a romantic way in this way before. Jenn (1:21:29) Really? Silvan (1:21:29) Pride and prejudice, you know, that's not happening there. So this, it's been so for me enlightening to be able to see some of these characters and what happens to them and how normalized it is just in any other way. And it's been so special for me to be able to read. And I suppose I'm still quite new to it. So I'm always looking out for recommendations. So I'll always go through like. Jenn (1:21:33) Right. Silvan (1:21:56) Declan and I've watched a couple of your videos as well. and Ren has loads of recommendations as well as was, as does Lizzie. And so it's, it's, it's really, it's, it's a really nice place to be in and it's a really comforting place to be in. And the people that I've encountered, including the listeners have been so welcoming and be like, right, you've read this now go read this and check this out. And I'm like, I cannot read as quick as you think I can. Trust me, I try. This is why I go onto audiobooks, because I'm in the car for hours on end. But yeah, it's such a treat, really. Jenn (1:22:23) Yeah. Yeah. Silvan (1:22:33) And Jen, I feel like we could literally record for hours on end and I would be very happy about that. But I'm wondering, let's stop here for now. We are going to end up doing a part two, which I think some of our listeners are quite used to now because Declan and I just do tend to talk for so long and record for so many hours. So we will stop there. We're gonna do a part two because there is so much more stuff that I want to be able to ask Jen. And we're gonna go deeper into the fanfic and tropes and things like that. But before we say bye to you, Jen, where can people find you on socials? Jenn (1:22:49) You Yeah, so I am the Book Refuge on YouTube. And then on Instagram, it's the same. It's the Book Refuge 18. But if you put in the Book Refuge, I'm coming up. So those are my two main platforms. Silvan (1:23:21) I'll put all of those in the description box below and just to remind everybody we do have a fable so Declan and have a fable we're currently on the last book so if you're still reading the long game or if you have read the long game please join us for that after that we're going to be moving over on to the Puckboy series so if you've never heard of it you know please look that up find the link in the description box below and watch out for part two. And I can't wait to have you back Jen. Jenn (1:23:52) I can't wait to come back. Thanks for having me.