Heated Rivalry Explained by a Trauma Therapist: Part 1

Silvan (00:00) Hi everyone. Welcome to Long Game, a heated rivalry podcast. My name is Selvan, I'm joined with Declan. Now we have a really special podcast planned for you all today with a very special guest. But before we get into that, just wanted to remind everyone about our book club on Fable, which is officially live. So you can search for the book club on Fable or use the link in the description box. Now we have started with game changers. So don't worry if you haven't started it or you've already read it. You can always add sort of an exchange your thoughts chapter specifically. Now, I'm a really slow reader, so I do need some slow reading company. Declan (00:36) Yeah, the way we're basically doing it is we're going to do half a book a week. ⁓ so usually the game changer books are actually quite short. ⁓ so they are usually split into like 30 chapters So we've broken it up in a way in people have plenty of opportunity to read them. And then obviously we can have discussions about the first half of the book every Sunday at 6 PM GMT. Eliza Butler (00:49) Thank you. Declan (01:01) and then the upper half then the following week. So we're just following that pattern and see how we get on. Don't be afraid to leave a comment, ask a question, give some thoughts about what you thought of the book or elements of the book that you enjoy, particularly the characters or plot and just take it from there. Silvan (01:18) Yeah. And so coming back to this episode then, so this will be part one of the episode. So this will be the part where we focus on why heat or rivalry feels so intense. So looking at the obsession, the attachment and the longing, but coming back to our special guest, we are joined by Eliza, who is a therapist who specializes in trauma. So Eliza has been in practice for over seven years and Eliza is also really funny. She's a standup comic who I got introduced by one of our listeners actually, and have been obsessed and cackling from her videos ever since for months. So thank you so much for joining us on the podcast, Eliza. Eliza Butler (01:59) Thanks so much for having me. really excited. It's like I shared with you, this is the first time I've really been able to kind of talk about the therapy side and the funny side ⁓ of all of this. So I'm really stoked for our conversation. Silvan (02:13) And I feel like you're one of the first people that I've seen online to be able to have done that in a really cohesive, but really funny way. Eliza Butler (02:22) Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's something that I, you know, I've been a romance reader for a really long time. I've, I've really loved at this point in my life, I only read romance just because my days are spent talking about a lot of really awful, sad stuff. So I need that happy ending. And I never really found a way to like marry that with, with comedy without a way that felt like it was punching down. And so just with all of the frenzy around the show and the books, I've read all the books now. It just, it felt like this really cool opportunity to do both, which has been really fun. Silvan (02:54) And you talked about sort of like the frenzy of the show and how that really sort of captivated you in a way. Like, did you expect something like The Heat of Rivalry, either the books or the TV show, to so emotionally derail you? Eliza Butler (03:08) No. Like, so this is so funny. Like I actually am not really much of a TV or movie watcher. And this is something that everyone I know thinks is like the most one of the most bonkers things about me, which is like a long list. But like typically if I do watch TV or a movie, I watch it in picture and picture on my phone while I'm playing like dumb game because I have like raging unmedicated ADHD. So I just I don't watch a lot of TV. I do a lot of reading and things like that. ⁓ And then the show dropped ⁓ in the United States on Thanksgiving and I just started seeing all these TikTok edits and I was like, I don't know, like maybe I'll wait until there's more of it out. But I just, couldn't resist. And then it just like full ADHD, like hyper fixation just like absolutely sucked me in like within that first week. And I don't watch it in picture in picture on my phone. I just watch it on my phone. So that's like the highest compliment I can get. But it was very shocking to me. I know the shape of an ADHD hyperfixation, it's still going strong. What is this? We're in March. I'm kind of shocked at the strength of it. Declan (04:18) Yeah, I was quite taken aback by how I think well-constructed the show actually was and how addictive it turned out to be. Now, I'm a big MN Romance reader. I always have been for the past few years. And so I've actually read these books before the show had even been put into production. So whenever I heard about it showing up, I was like, this will be nice. This will be like a cool little thing and we'll get to enjoy, you know, seeing it on screen for the first time. I did not expect the level of quality and care and heart that went into the show. was so it was just done to such a high standard that It just elevated the stories from the book to something that is completely universal. It captured that feeling of longing you get from an excellent romance and managed to capture it in a way which did honor all these different elements of society, especially in terms of gay people and sports players who are having to be closeted. It took what a lot of people consider to be low art. and elevated it to something that is internationally recognised and celebrated and enjoyed. Eliza Butler (05:38) ⁓ I guess, yeah, I just, that's the secret of romance, right? Is like, it has this like perception as like low art, but it's not, or, you know, it's just like any genre. There are good, really amazing examples and examples that, you know, are not as good. And that's okay because we like them anyway. But just like the, the faithfulness and the, like you say, the artistry that they brought, I think there is something about it being a Canadian production, like this could not have been made in the United States, like absolutely not. ⁓ But like just like the way that Jacob Tierney like, he saw the vision and then he made it into this like film, like beautiful film, right? He's like taking references from like Wong Kar Wai and all, know, he like, he treated it with the most faithful adaptation of romance I've ever seen, ⁓ which is what people are responding to. ⁓ Declan (06:07) Thank Mm-hmm. Eliza Butler (06:33) Like the love stories are there, they're out there. It's just, they weren't treated with respect. Declan (06:41) Yeah. Silvan (06:42) You're so right, because this couldn't have been made on an American network. mean, we just saw this week what happened to the Buffy reboot from Hulu, and that's been canceled before the pilot even aired. And so I think you're right. think it was... Eliza Butler (06:51) Mm-hmm. Declan (06:58) so bitter about this. The Buffy reboot. I am such a huge Buffy fan and that reboot getting cancelled was like a slap in the face. But you're right, what you were saying, Selvin, for some reason American production companies are allergic to making good decisions in terms of picking their shows and allowing their projects to be ran in certain ways. It's just I think the level of executive and producer control that's sort of exerted over these sort of projects kind of ends up drowning them because people are so obsessed with how their money is being spent that they're not letting the artists do their job. It's kind of like if I was to like go and get a suit tailored and I'm paying someone 500 pounds to do it for me, but then I'm like, ⁓ I'm spending 500 points. No, actually I want you to stitch it this way. And the way that I want it done. Even though I'm talking to an expert that is supposed to be an expert in what they're doing. It's that kind of vibe. And I think that's why so many productions that are America made for TV shows and adaptations end up struggling so much because there's just so much influence from the sort of production side and the investor side that it just ends up ruining what could be really great projects. I think The Wheel of Time is a great example of that. It's just a horrendously marketed show, even though The source material and the acting quality and the writing and the way in which all the CGI is done is really, really good. But just from a lack of faith and interference, it's now basically just died off. Silvan (08:35) and I so agree with you, Declan. I haven't watched The Wheel of Time, if I'm honest. I only knew about it when I got Instagram posts about it being cancelled. So that was the first time I heard of it. ⁓ Ironic. But coming back to Heated Rivalry then, Eliza, what was sort of your first impression of Heated Rivalry? And in your head from A psychological point of view, why can't we stop thinking about this show? Eliza Butler (09:02) Mm hmm. Yeah. So I kind of smile when you asked about my first impression, you know, I'm just thinking about how like I got like locked in when they're in room 1410 and like the Foley was so good. I was like, they're taking this so seriously. Like that was like the click moment for me where I was like, no, they're like really being serious about this. ⁓ And so I It just makes me laugh because I was like, oh no, I'm locked in now and have not come up for air essentially. But I think part of it too, and I think this also goes to what Declan is saying about just the way that shows are made. There's just so much trust for the viewer, I think. There's so much that's happening in the show out of the frame, right? And there's little Easter eggs and it makes it because you want to watch it 100 times and be like, this happened here, but the seed was planted here. And just the fact that they trusted the viewer to actually watch closely and pay attention, everyone is yearning for that. Well, maybe not everyone, a lot of people are yearning for that. So give us that, we will break down every single frame. I mean, sometimes to the point where it's like, I don't think that's actually what's going on, but it's fun ⁓ versus something that's made on Netflix where they expect people to be on their phone and so they say things four times. Like that's not fun. I wanna like zoom in and be like, what's happening here? Or like listen to the Foley and be like, oh, there was a butt pat out of the frame that, you know what I mean? So I think that's part of it too is just like it was made to be like devoured. Declan (10:49) Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's you can see in the way that it's directed. I mean, this is a book where a lot of. Their feelings are internalized, and so it's communicated in the book through the actual writing itself, like you get Shane's thoughts, you get Ilya's thoughts and you know exactly what's going through their minds. And it's very easy to turn a show into an exposition dump by trying to like translate that format to TV. Like if you. Eliza Butler (10:54) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Declan (11:19) Imagine you like, just had someone come in all the time and say like, Hey Shane, you seem like you're really sad about that thing. Might that possibly have something to do with the fact that he upset you because you did that thing and you did that thing? Hmm. You don't have that blatant obvious, like this is what's happened because you're stupid and we don't think that you're going to understand if we let the actors try to emote it to you instead, which is just sort of an insult to the audience. So. Eliza Butler (11:33) He Declan (11:45) Jacob Tierney has not done that. He has taken the opposite route. He is trusted that the audience is smart enough and emotionally intelligent enough to understand what the actors are conveying and what the story is telling. I mean, he does it through the lighting, through the cinematography, through the way in which line delivery is put, like all these little elements to communicate in a different way what the book tells you. yeah, he's definitely done it justice. He's done it in a way that honors the audience as well, I think. Silvan (12:15) you're right. He hasn't dumbed it down for anyone. And I think we appreciate that even more so. And I'm thinking back to, I'm a Dawson's Creek fan and that was one of the first TV shows that really elevated sort of the script and the language for a teen audience at the time. And I felt really smart reciting some of that stuff. I was learning new words on that show all the time. But when we think about Eliza Butler (12:38) Hmm. Silvan (12:40) what happens on a psychological level. And this is why I love having therapists, psychologists like yourself, Eliza on here, because Declan and I are both psychology nerds, so we get to nerd out with you. And so when we think about it from the psychological point of view, then, at what point does something become sort of consumed by our thoughts or even intrusive into our thoughts? Eliza Butler (13:05) Well, think that like, I guess I would even want to take a step back and then like, is that necessarily a bad thing? You know, like, as a therapist, I'm wondering, is this affecting someone's functioning? Are people like not able to sleep for a long time? Or is it affecting how they are connecting with other people, you know, outside of on their phone or in their computer? ⁓ But beyond that, I'm pretty much like, If it's, you know, if in 2026 you can get your dopamine and oxytocin and enjoy something like do it. ⁓ I, there is a, ⁓ I am a very practical therapist. I'm like, okay, if you're able to connect with people and you're doing what you need to do, like have fun, you know? So I think that answer of like, is there, I mean, and I don't know if you were specifically asking this, but like, is it too much? It's only too much if it's causing a problem. But other than that, like, you know, we don't have a lot of control over, you know, there's like dopamine happening for sure. ⁓ oxytocin for sure, which is like pretty cool when you think about like mirror neurons and like how you can watch something and you can watch it a hundred times and you're still getting that like oxytocin dump from these people who are like actually aren't real. Like, I think that's like cool thing about the human brain that it can do that. ⁓ so it's like, there are things that are happening on like a neurological, like a physiological level that makes it really compelling. But like, yeah, if it's not causing a problem, yeah, my official position is like, do what you want. It's okay. Declan (14:43) Which is totally fair. I mean, I think you're exposed to so much negativity and negative media all the time that just to have a little bit of, you know, just positive representations of human existence, like even as someone as simple as falling in love and overcoming an obstacle to be with your love. go from underdog to the winner. Those stories stick with people for a reason and it's because they give you the warm fuzzies and that can just get you through your day for a little bit and there's nothing wrong with that. Eliza Butler (15:24) Absolutely, and particularly because, you know, this was, the show was meant to be a representation of queer joy in particular, right? Like there's so many people who didn't know about romance or, you know, who were just waiting for the other shoe to drop the whole time. ⁓ And so this fact that like, no, this is just meant to show these people falling in love and it's a good thing and the world doesn't end and nobody dies. Like that's so important. It's always been important, but it's just so important right now. Yeah, and to have, like you say, that underdog story and the kind of villain is the culture in a lot of ways. I think a lot of people can relate to that, whether or not they're at least here in America. Declan (16:13) Yeah. Silvan (16:14) That's such an interesting take about the villain of the show being the culture in which it's set in, because I never really thought of it in that way, because it's not like a Marvel cinematic universe type of movie where you have like the bad guy or person, where you have an actual physical representation of a villain. But that's, really, I really. God you're good at what you do. Eliza Butler (16:36) I just got some experience. ⁓ before I was a therapist, I ⁓ have a writing degree. So I'm also bringing that in too. So ⁓ I think that helps my kind of perspective and understanding. Silvan (16:52) I feel like you and Declan are almost two peas in the pod kind of thing. You're so similar in backgrounds. Declan (16:59) I'm like sitting here thinking, my God, that's such a clever idea. Why did I never consider that? And whenever I'm reading books that there doesn't need to be like a physical villain. A culture can be a villain, like religion could be a villain. An aspect of the world or world building could be the villain. Like I never really even considered that maybe. Yeah, because it's true. It is true. It's the hockey culture in general. Obviously you could point out like Eliza Butler (17:11) Mm. Declan (17:26) random guys from the crowd that are short and homophobic slurs, actually. But ultimately it's this, this bro culture, this sort of toxic masculinity around sport that has resulted in the situation that Ilya and Shane and Scott and Kip find themselves in, which is being unable to be their authentic selves out of fear of retaliation from fans and from family and friends. And that's a very relevant story to a lot of people. particularly in sport, but also across society. So yeah, the struggle is real and you could swap out, you know, being gay for any other amount of sort of protected sort of identities. It's yeah, I think you've touched on something really relevant there. Silvan (18:19) Yeah, and I like that you talked about sort of toxic masculinity there, Declan, because in a way, I was thinking about how masculinity really shapes the emotional expression in the show. And so what's your take on how that is shaped, Eliza? Eliza Butler (18:38) Yeah, I think, you know, with the toxic masculinity, I think like, like you're saying, Declan, like the hockey culture, and then just like this kind of like flat out understanding between Ilya and Shane and Scott and Kit, or Scott in particular, that they can't, they just can't, they can't come out. Like it's a given. Like nobody's talking. I mean, I think there's like, you know, just this implied pressure, but no one is saying like, no, you can't come out. Right. But and I think, you know, Ilya is such an interesting character for me because he gets to be masculine in a way that is not really kind of like bound by maybe the toxicity, right? Like he gets to wear these designer shirt and like that very Slavic gote shirt in the club and like nobody's going to look twice. And he gets to be like this kind of bigger. I think the fact that he's like Russian and he's like European, he gets away with kind of pushing more at the bounds of masculinity. I think Shane is just like straight up. And I think Shane as a character is just like a jock and like that's, you he's a jock who happens to be gay and that's cool. Like, but like, you know, just having like his whole life was in those rooms. So that's going to inform just like how he sees being a man. You know, in some ways I feel like I'm not even like super qualified to talk about masculinity as like an outside observer. I have my own experience of that, but ⁓ I think just like the toxicity of don't feel, I think if you feel, keep it locked away, like that's not for here. And then eventually there's like nowhere for it to go. Declan (20:22) Yeah, definitely. ⁓ I think that's why you find Shane struggles so much more than Ilya it seems in terms of the aspect of their sexuality. Ilya, think just through his own personality is naturally rebellious. So it really suits him to be able to give in to these other sides of himself that might be going against the grain. ⁓ Obviously, he's not so rebellious that he'll Eliza Butler (20:40) you Declan (20:51) out himself. For that he would need a good reason and he finds one. But with Shane, it's so much more deeply ingrained that he is such a role follower. He is someone who values control, values privacy. He is just a very insular person. that sort of results in him being a lot more afraid to address his sexuality in a public way. And I've find that that's where he sort of has his panic attack towards the end of the show whenever he gets caught by his father and he starts immediately freaking out because Elliot is not really all that concerned. But you know, that element of Shane and the way that he grew up in the environments that he's grown up in has sort of reinforced it into him that this is a bad thing. This cannot happen. This is really, really awful. don't want to be the thing that everyone calls the bad thing. So no, it's not happening. ⁓ which will be very interesting for the next season, I think. Eliza Butler (21:55) Absolutely. Well, and also he is half Asian. He's like a mixed race person in a very white country. So he's already bringing that like visible difference in. Right. And we see that like, when his mom gives him the pep talk about being a role model, when he's just like trying to watch Ilya, ⁓ mess around on ice, you know, so like that, it's like, that is like in the text of the show now too. Right. So he already is bringing that in and this kind of idea of like, okay, there's this other thing about me that is gonna give strangers ideas about me, think, you know, adds to the complications. Silvan (22:30) Yeah, and in a way, you know, there's this real suppression of emotion. And I wonder from a trauma perspective then, what happens when you do suppress emotions like this or any type of emotion really over a long period of time? Eliza Butler (22:49) Well, and I think also when we're talking about the way Shane experiences emotions, like we can't forget that he's autistic. Like that brings in like a whole other perspective. And like a lot of my lens comes through that because I specifically work with like autistic and ADHD folks, like that's who have experienced trauma. So what I can say is like a person, like eventually if we suppress things long enough, just like on a human level, it's going to come out some way and it might be weird. It might be a way that like doesn't seem connected to trauma, you know, but it's like when we like trace it back, it's like, ⁓ it's actually connected to this. ⁓ So it's gonna come out some way. It's just, it's hard to predict. Declan (23:30) Mm-hmm. I it's also a good representation of an argument which is often made whenever people try to bring up the homophobia in any sport, is why do we need to know about their personal lives anyway? Why is this having to be brought up? Why are we having to talk about it? Why is it about sexuality? It's because it does more than just influence their private lives. The fact that there will be physical repercussions to what would happen to them if they just authentically loved as themselves. That matters and that needs to be discussed. with Shane, Shane just wants to play hockey. He just wants to play hockey. He doesn't seem to actually want to be the representative for a certain minority. ⁓ You get the feeling that he doesn't really care about being this sort of representative for Asian people in sport either. Eliza Butler (24:19) Mm-hmm. Declan (24:30) terms of sexuality too. That's also quite clear in the book that he kind of doesn't want to have to take on those roles. But it's a discussion that needs to be had because he can't live his life properly without having addressed it and he can't play properly without having addressed it either. ⁓ This stuff begins to affect his career at certain point, ⁓ especially if he decides to come out and be with Ilya publicly in a way that isn't happening anymore, like it all massively impacts everything. Silvan (25:06) Yeah, I was fully paying attention to what you were saying Declan, but I was very distracted by Eliza's beautiful cat. Declan (25:11) I did notice we have a gap. Eliza Butler (25:15) Yeah, I knew he would show up at some point. He might show you his face, but maybe not this time. Silvan (25:21) For those of you only listening, mean, head over to YouTube and look at the video. It's so cute. It's so cute. But in response to what you're saying, Declan, I promise I was listening. And I agree. I think what we see here from Shane is this restraint, right? He's restrained about a lot of things and he compartmentalizes about a lot of things. And so from a storytelling perspective, then, why do we find this or do we find this restraint in Eliza Butler (25:37) strange, right? Silvan (25:51) whatever form it comes out in, more compelling. Eliza Butler (25:54) I mean, I think, I think longing, think we love longing, right? Like we love knowing that these are two characters, like we have the full perspective that they are fully like in love with one another and neither of them have the perspective. So getting to watch the stairs and the way they react when they part and all of those things, like having the like kind of bigger, global view of that, I think like, because I think it's very relatable, no matter the gender or anything like that. Like, I think most people have felt like what it's like to long for someone. And it can be unbearable. And so for watching it in a dose of five and a half hours, essentially, like, they're like, we're like, no, I wouldn't say, yeah, we could say like micro dosing longing ⁓ in a way that doesn't actually ⁓ belong to us. Declan (26:48) Yeah, I think that's a good way of it. That sense of... I think it's also the longing pays off. Like there's a payoff. Like in real life, you can long after someone and it might not come to anything. You might not get your happy ever after. You might not get the person. You might never see them again or they might not feel the same way towards you. So it's also the triumph of it succeeding in the end of like You get your happy ever after. think that's why, and I'm fully the same. I don't like to read romances that are the end in ways that aren't like a fully wrapped up little present in its happy ever after. Like, because it's too reflective of like a mean sort of reality, which is that most of the time, unfortunately, the happy endings don't usually happen. Eliza Butler (27:35) Mm-hmm. Declan (27:44) In that way, it's a lot more complicated and it's not a straight board and not nice. So I wouldn't want to be robbed of the opportunity just to get that catharsis of see, it does all work out in the end. They're going to be so happy together. and this is all going to be wonderful. So I think that's why when it's done for like film and TV, it's so popular because it just scratches the edge that. You know, unfortunately we don't always get in our real lives. Silvan (28:16) Yeah, and especially when you consider, you know, gay themed media, TV shows, movies, often there is such an emphasis on it not working out on the obstacles. Like if I have to watch another movie that ends because somebody dies But good Lord, I just want to be happy for once. Declan (28:37) Mm-hmm. Silvan (28:38) You know, and you see these high stakes, especially with Ilya and Shane. And, you know, for me, you almost see this vulnerability represented in these high stakes. Like, are they going to make it in the end? Is it going to work out for them? Have they sacrificed enough to deserve that happy ending? Eliza Butler (28:59) Which is like a beautiful thing about like the romance genre in general, right is like there's you know, especially when things are Really well written and really good you have that fear like I felt that like after episode four and the club scene I was like I I know how this ends. I've read all these I've read all six of the books I know but I'm still like I don't know how they're going to fix this No, and like that to be able to have like it's like this like kind of meta ⁓ experience of like having feeling that and knowing you're feeling that and also having this like my like observing self lives here that's where this gesture is ⁓ like knowing it's gonna be okay but also actually feeling like it's like the cognitive versus the emotional understanding i'm having the emotional experience while cognitively knowing it's going to be okay Declan (29:34) . Yeah. It's I think also Rachel reads quite good writing her conflicts in her books. ⁓ Like a big issue with some M.M. Romance books is that their conflicts are like shallow. They're out of nowhere and they don't fit into the character arcs and they don't fit into the plots. It's typically like miscommunication or ⁓ just random events happening out of nowhere that have no basis in anything that's been built up. But with Rachel Reed and the way that she writes her stories, the conflict is very real and it matters specifically to these characters. It's organic. It makes sense that this is an issue that would occur. What, obviously, if two people who are professional athletes start sleeping together on the down-low, obviously the conflict is can't properly be together like how long can you last in a relationship like that and Scotton keeps the same. How long can you ask someone to remain hidden in your relationship and to essentially closet themselves again before they get emotionally drained out like you can't do that so that those being like the main conflicts of these two books and the other books are very much the same their conflicts feel organic too it makes the story feel a lot more real and believable. Eliza Butler (30:45) Yeah. Declan (31:09) and you can really get invested in the sort of resolution of what's happened. Like they'll have to work to fix these very real feeding problems. And then you get the catharsis of, my God, they did fix it in the end. It's all worked out. They worked together, they did it, they overcame the problem. And it just gives a bit more of a satisfying end. Silvan (31:33) in a way Declan, when you were talking, I was sort of thinking about sort of the fantasy versus what the real life emotions are there and that conflict between the two. And even Eliza, when you said, you know, the club scene and you knew it was going to happen, but you were still sort of anticipating it. It reminds me of a conversation we had in a different episode with Declan and myself where he knew it was going to happen and I was still like, ⁓ shit. Like, my God, what, like, I can't believe this. And he's like, I know, but I, I had read the books, I knew it was going to happen. And so I've come into this very much with, you know, the fantasy of what could happen versus the reality of what's been depicted in the show without prior knowledge of having read the book. So without it being spoiled in a way, because I knew it was going to work out. I didn't know, know this, this. series is going to end on a happy note. I I hoped it. But in a way, I'm thinking then, does the show, in a way, meet the emotional needs that people want from an MM romance, from a rom-com? And if it doesn't, are they getting those emotional needs met somewhere else? Eliza Butler (32:56) I would say first, I want to applaud your restraint for not having read the books yet. I was like, I think it was after the third episode, I was like, I can't wait anymore. And I just like, just chewed through them so fast. But you know, I do think I lost a little bit of the surprise. But that I mean, it's it's all good and end. So you know, I love that you have the different perspectives there. I think I think ultimately like a TV show as beautifully done as it is and all those wonderful things about like cannot meet someone's emotional needs. It can, you know, push some buttons. It can, I think I've seen so many people say this show made me realize that there were things missing in my life that I needed to go get. I've seen that commentary many times from people, which I think is like really a best case scenario of saying, I don't have this. And whether that's Declan (33:46) Thank Eliza Butler (33:52) you know, a love that looks like this or love, you know, ⁓ a romantic partner at all or taking care. I've seen so many people be like, I'm going to the gym all the time because I want to, you know, like they're inspired by all the exercise scenes in the in the show. Right. So it's like, think best case scenario, if if people find something kind of lacking, they find that it reminds them of something lacking. It's like, OK, and now what? What can you do about that? What's within your control that It's like you're ultimately never in anyone's control whether or not they meet someone to fall in love with, but they can go outside and find themselves in places where that might be more likely to happen. Or they can go to the gym or they can learn to cook or whatever it is that has been kind of activated. And that's gonna be, I think, personal for anyone who's watching. So yeah. Silvan (34:43) Yeah, I mean the only reason I'm going to the gym is because I want Connor Storrie's ass like this is specifically what I told my trainer Eliza Butler (34:49) Right. Exactly. Right? Like that is a beautiful inspiration to take from the show. Silvan (34:57) Exactly. I never want to make a tuna melt in my life. I'm a vegetarian, so that's never going to happen. But give me a story. It's never going to happen. I know it's never going to happen, but let me live with that fantasy that it might one day. Eliza Butler (35:09) Right, right. And like, and you get to enjoy the process and the experience. Well, you get enjoy the result. Yeah, I'm like, that's not true. I'm just going go out my mouth. like, no, I never believed that in my life. ⁓ Silvan (35:14) Enjoyment at the gym. Declan (35:27) I do like the idea that it's encouraging people to pursue better versions of relationships as well. I like the idea that people are seeing that love represented and being like, I kind of want that. I want a love like that where it's deep and it's meaningful and people fight for it. ⁓ But I suppose as well, there's always that worry that Some people will be looking for a conflict in their relationship to sort of prove love to their partner, which I might just be overthinking that, but it was just sort of a thought that occurred to me there. Silvan (36:09) I think you're right. And in a way, I was even thinking about, you know, it's really aspirational in a way to want a love like that. I mean, their relationship is not perfect by all means. Like, you know, that's pure the layers in part two. But for me, even watching it, I can observe something like that. I can observe something like Bridgerton, for example. And Eliza Butler (36:12) Yeah. Silvan (36:37) want to have something like that, but also know that that might not happen. And I think I'm saying that to caveat for some listeners who don't have a relationship, who aren't in a relationship, or who don't envisage that happening. I'm like, that's okay too. get to sort of that wishful fulfillment of enjoying it through that TV show lens without having to enact it for yourself in real life in a way. This is not meant to be a therapy session. promise Eliza. Eliza Butler (37:06) No, no. I mean, because you're absolutely right. But I think like romance as a genre has always functioned for that for people who are in relationships and people who are not. Right. There are plenty of people who have relationships that are not fulfilling and are reading romances ⁓ in a way to like kind of bridge that gap for their experience. Whether or not that's like sustainable, that's a question for them and their therapist. But romance has always done that. So yes. ⁓ And it's a beautiful fantasy and you're right, like the relationship certainly has its issues, but also like it started when they were so young, right? I think there's something really interesting about like the messiness of being in your twenties. ⁓ That is like kind of a subtext of the show. ⁓ But yeah, like you can also read it, you know, read the books or watch the show and say like, yeah, I want love, maybe not like this. Their story is beautiful. I don't have to have that reflected. in my life. Silvan (38:08) And so we talked earlier about sort of this longing and the yearning. And in a way I was thinking about how sometimes this yearning can be more fulfilling to than, you know, actually the actualization of the romance or of the end result in a way. I don't know what your thoughts about that were. Eliza Butler (38:30) Yeah, mean I think... many people like to feel yearning, right? Whether it's their own or it's much safer when it's fiction. ⁓ You know, I mean, there's a reason that we're still making versions of Pride and Prejudice, ⁓ you know, and that's like, I think there, and there is something there about anticipation. I think dopamine hits harder when you're anticipating or like when the anticipation stretches out. And so, I think a lot of people just like, humans were so interesting. We like to feel all kinds of things, ⁓ even if they aren't like good feelings. We still want to have them. So yeah, think the yearning is, so the yearning makes it hit so much harder when they get to drive away into the sunset at the end, right? If it had been like a two hour movie, still could have been beautiful and wonderful, but would not have hit as hard as. like how in it we were with them the whole time. Declan (39:38) Yeah, it's interesting. The idea that some people just want the yearning part. The happy ending and then they don't want the happy ever after. They want to then pick it up in another relationship and do it all over again and get the frill and the... That is definitely a pattern I've seen with people in relationships where they love the frill of the chase and then when they achieve it, honeymoon period passes. Eliza Butler (39:51) Mm. Declan (40:07) real life sets and the monotony of day to day. And then all of a sudden it's, well, I don't think they're for me. I'm going to look, I'm going to look elsewhere. And then a weeks later, they're in love again and they're trying to be with somebody different and trying to achieve a different relationship. Yeah, it's quite an unhealthy pattern to be stuck in. But I think that's why it'll be interesting. Now, next series. like the next season, because what we're going to get is post honeymoon period. We're getting the reality of what are there? What's their relationship now going to look like? Now that they're actually a couple, like they're now a couple, they will be living very close to one another. They'll be doing their day to day. Most of the time will be chopper. ⁓ Like, how is that going to look for these two whose relationship has been basically this endless Eliza Butler (40:44) you Declan (41:06) run of yearning and hotel hiccups and secrecy and sort of exciting, those stressful moments. Silvan (41:16) Yeah, I agree. And in a way we've seen, you know, from episode one right up until episode six, that was the dopamine hit, that was the chase, that was, you know, the thrill of it. And we saw glimpses of what does real life look like when you're a couple in that last episode in episode six, where I described it in a very affectionate way, but doing the boring mundane things of everyday life. And Eliza Butler (41:41) Mm-hmm. Declan (41:42) you Silvan (41:43) I mean, I don't know what's coming in long game and I appreciate that you think I have restrained Eliza from not reading the books. It was purely because it was sold out everywhere and I could not get my hands on a copy. Like I have the full series now. Have I started it? Of course not. But I am such a slow reader that I find audio books much quicker to consume. So I'm going to have to catch up with everybody. But you know, I wondering about sort of this longing because we see it and we see it so often in lots of different mediums, but can the longing part and Declan called it also the chase aspect of it, can that aspect get addictive in a way? Eliza Butler (42:27) I mean, I think anything that spikes dopamine can feel addictive, right? Like the kind of will they, won't they, the chase, like we know, like we know ultimately they will, but there was so many, there were so many up and downs in between. ⁓ So, and I think as we were talking about earlier, just like the skills with which the show was made. ⁓ it, yeah, I think I, you I don't know if I'd say addictive in like a medical sense, but like, yeah, it's like, you want to come back for more. Like now at this point, I just will be like, I want to watch this scene and I'll just like watch one of the scenes and like just dip in and out. I think I called it like, ⁓ charcuterie, like instead of reheating the whole thing. ⁓ but it's cause like, I know like some part of my brain, emotion brain knows I want whatever that feeling is, ⁓ in that moment. So I can just like surgically pull it out a little bit. So yeah, I don't know, addictive. Yeah, I think, but there is some things just really special about this. I think we don't necessarily see this a lot around TV shows and the books together, right? Because the books are the same. I'll like dip in and read some of the, you know, I've read both the books, or I've read all of the books, but I've read Heated Rivalry and Long Game multiple times. And I'll just like dip in a little bit ⁓ and read some scenes and then come back out now. for I guess for like whatever specific emotional experience my brain wants. Silvan (43:54) So I really like this idea of charcuterie. Like I've never heard that concept before, so I love that. I'm going to take it. I'm going to run with it because it is so easy to dip in and out of scenes, especially when you watch some of the edits on TikTok and on Instagram, for example. You don't need to commit to watching the whole episode, for example. Eliza Butler (44:01) So. No, no, you can, but like you can just jump in. Yeah. Silvan (44:18) And so what does that do to a person when they feel like, okay, I really need to feel sad. I'm going to listen to the monologue that Ilya says on the phone, for example, or I'm feeling kind of randy right now. So let's pick, well, anything from any of the episodes. But what does that do from like a dopamine level to somebody when they want to fulfill a certain feeling or something that they want to just grab onto? Eliza Butler (44:49) Yeah, I mean, I think we do this with music all the time. You know, it's like not so different. you know, you have your sad playlist or you're like, like pump up playlist or whatever or like a lot of times before I do a comedy show, I just I love dancing on their own by Robin's one of my favorite songs. So I'll just like play that on repeat on my way to the venue. Like, ⁓ we do it already. This just is like a little bit more elaborate, I guess in that you can I mean, you can watch it, guess without full attention, but you can listen music without full attention or you know, whatever it is you need, but Declan (44:58) Yeah. Eliza Butler (45:26) I mean, the music hits the brain, a different part of the brain. So you don't have to be like fully engaged with it to get the whatever's happening neurologically, I don't think, but I don't know so much about that. Silvan (45:37) I love that. I never made that connection, but you're right. We do that all the time, whether we're in the gym or we're out for a walk. And I love the Robin song. I love the Robin song. What's your go-to sad song when you need to feel your feels, Eliza? Eliza Butler (45:54) my god, no, I like such a sad girl. ⁓ So I guess I would say I am a big Taylor Swift fan. So she has many that I can pull from. love their I don't ⁓ know if you know the band The Postal Service. It's like their one album came out like 20 years ago now. ⁓ But it's like very tied to a very specific time in my life. So it can Yeah, I can listen to that album. I'm like, My neurodivergence is like, listen to like albums. I just will listen to the whole album. And sometimes it'll be like one song on repeat, but I just, I'm like, I'm listening to this whole album, like start to finish. That's how my brain works. So, yeah, Postal Service, their only album came out a couple of decades ago now. Silvan (46:38) I'll have to look them up. What's your happy and sad songs Declan? Declan (46:45) Oh, it changes so often. Like my favorite sad song at the minute is a Noah Khan song. And I can't even remember the name of it. It just shows up on my Spotify sometimes and then I'll just be driving in the car like nearly in tears. It's on, I can't even remember the name of it, but he's basically singing about from like the perspective of it seems his parents saying that, you know, I think it's the best thing we ever lost or something like that. Eliza Butler (46:52) Mm. Declan (47:12) I'm talking about how he's gone off and he's exploring the world and he's doing all these things and you know, he feels guilty about having left them, but they're like reassuring him that no, you're the best thing that ever that we've ever lost. You're the best thing to ever go and leave because you know, you're loving the spike life and you've achieved all these things. And it's great. And I don't know. It just makes me want to cry. In terms of a happy song. I'm like Eliza, I have a extensive playlist of very sad music. I listen to. I'll be in the gym listening to Adele. Like that is, that's my vibe. But it's sort the happy songs I suppose. ⁓ Back on 74 by Jungle, I always find that's like a real dancey, sort of upbeat one that I constantly put on, not like, there is no happy Biffrel Williams in my playlist. Let me put it that way. Silvan (48:12) Declan is just naturally happy, he doesn't need to elicit it from music. Declan (48:16) No. Eliza Butler (48:16) Sure. What about you? Silvan (48:20) I think I'm a Swiftie too, so my sad one is All Too Well, the 10 minute version, Taylor's version. I was at the Ears Tour and when she was singing it amongst like 80 or 90,000 other people in London, it was a very powerful moment. I meditate, so I felt like we were all operating on the same frequency when that song was playing. Eliza Butler (48:27) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, music can do that. Like that's why there's like in like in worship and things like that. Like music can, it's a connector. ⁓ and like people singing together, it like is a nervous system regulator. I mean, singing alone or humming alone does too, but singing together regulates the nervous system. It's like a co-regulation thing. So I can only imagine, like I did not get to go to the arrows tour. I watched many of the videos, like live streams on TikTok, which was like super fun, but like to have that experience in person, like. Declan (48:47) and yeah. Mm. Eliza Butler (49:17) Yeah, could yeah, I can imagine I hardly imagine but yeah Silvan (49:21) Yeah. And you're right, because music is such a connector and it connects so well in this show specifically. You know, we have a lot of these songs like the Kealan Russo song and Feis song and the Wolf Parade song, and they serve as such pivotal moments for the show, not even in the episode, but in the scenes as well. I wonder if there are any songs that weren't in the soundtrack for either of you that you would almost be like, Declan (49:22) Yeah. you Silvan (49:50) this is Shane's theme song, or this is Ilya's theme song, or, you know, this is Yuna's theme song. Eliza Butler (49:58) Mm-hmm. Mm, I don't... That's such a good question. Declan (50:04) question. Eliza Butler (50:09) I I think it's it seemed important, especially I think Jacob Tierney called him his like needle drop songs. I think he does that in his shows. It seemed really important for him that they were Canadian, which is not surprising with, you know, the history of like the Canadian music industry. And I don't know as many Canadian. very true. Sarah McLachlan. Yeah. Silvan (50:27) Harley Ray Jepsen is one of my favourite Canadian artists. Celine Dion. Justin Bieber. Eliza Butler (50:37) I forgot about Justin Bieber. Yeah. Declan (50:38) Oh yeah, forgot to do some diversifinating. Silvan (50:39) Yeah, he is. And I think there was also talk about sort of Carly Rae doing a song potentially, who knows. She just had a baby, so who knows how much time she has right now. ⁓ But maybe we'll come back to their theme songs in part two, so we can have a little bit of a think about it. But I'm wondering, I'm wondering from a therapist lens then, ⁓ Eliza, you know, when we think about Shane and Ilya specifically, and I know Declan and I have Declan (50:59) Yeah. Silvan (51:09) talked about attachment ⁓ to length because I love attachment. love talking about attachment. If you want me to just talk for like half an hour, just say the word attachment. But are there any particular attachment styles that you've seen either, Shane and Ilya, from a therapist lens? Eliza Butler (51:28) Yes, I was so excited when I saw that you want to talk about that because like, attachment theory is basically like my ⁓ through line in the work that I do. I think, I mean, particularly, you know, developmental trauma and things like that. I think the attachment is the thing. I think they my contention is they're both avoidance. They're both avoidance. I think Shane was in an avoidant relationship with himself for a really long time. ⁓ Because he was trying to compartmentalize. like his core self from his sexuality. ⁓ And I think that's why it took like, what, like seven or eight years for them to get together. Cause you had two avoidance, right? Like you've got Ilya who has ⁓ kind of the more visible childhood trauma. Like we know that he, you know, we seen his father, we find out about what happened to his mother in the show. you know, and you know, there's also, I think the cultural piece. There's like a wonderful story. I don't know if it's actually true, but like when McDonald's went, was like starting to have restaurants in Russia, they were training the staff to smile and the Russian people were like, why are they smiling at us? Like they need to stop. That's creepy. Like it's just like, so there is a difference in, I mean, certainly emotional expression with, you know, with Slavic people versus, you know, North Americans, I think. But I also, with Shane, I think, You know, he had two loving present parents, but I also have found that with neurodivergent people, autistic and ADHD people, there is ⁓ sometimes still like a lack of attunement, even from very good, very caring parents or caregivers in those early years that causes attachment wounding. And I think it's like something that is so confusing for people. Because they're like, I had what I needed. My parents were there. I knew that they loved me. But there still wasn't that emotional attunement. And so ⁓ the secure attachment didn't develop as you would expect. ⁓ Just because it's like, know, many times neurodivergent people have neurodivergent parents with their own, I mean, everyone's parents or caregivers have their own needs, but it's like two people talking past each other. ⁓ So I think, so Shane was just really, and he was also really good at, is really good at denial and like self-sacrifice as like, he enjoys that part of it. He enjoys the yearning and the longing until the result. So maybe he's like us in that way. ⁓ And so yeah, like I've seen some people say they feel like it was like an anxious chasing avoidant. Shane is not an anxious. There were no 30 text long chains. in there, like he did not crash out on anybody. He just like avoided and he like literally runs, right? He ran after the tuna melt. He bolted like just like literal avoidance. So I think this is we're having like avoidant unavoidant crime is what I think is happening here. I've thought about this a lot. Declan (54:42) Yeah, it does translate as well to how long it takes them to sort this stuff out. How badly do they have to be trying to ignore these problems and avoid these problems to drag this out for 78 years? That's commitment to your avoidance, so it is. That's proper commitment. And it takes essentially the idea of one or the other running off with somebody else or completely abandoning the relationship for them to be kicked into high gear to actually do something about it. I think they needed the threat of it ending to motivate them to change the way that they're handling the situation. ⁓ So as soon as ⁓ Ilya takes the risk of you know, inviting Shane over and gets too real and Shane bolts. The sort of catalyst for that then is Rose coming in and Shane getting with Rose. That then just set the fire alight and they needed to then figure out pretty fast how they're going to sort of make this work where avoiding it is now resulting in the end of the relationship. Because it's easy to avoid within a relationship. and deal with it or not deal with it, but whenever it's coming to an end and reality hits, all of a sudden it's a lot harder to have to do that because you then have to address the real consequences that are happening around you. Silvan (56:20) Yeah. in a way, I love this concept of emotional attunement. It's not something I had thought about before when I was thinking about their attachment styles or when we spoke about it in our psychology-themed episode before. And you're right, there can be a misalignment of that attunement, which then creates cascades into what happens with Shane, for example. I I feel it's more obvious because of the trauma he's experienced. as a child and growing up with his father and brother specifically. And in a way, Declan, when you were talking, I was thinking, yeah, it's taken them a long time to get here. But in a way, I thought, gosh, this is some commitment to a hookup because in gay culture, this would never have lasted seven or eight years or however long it's been. Like, couple of weeks max and you've moved on to somebody else. Eliza Butler (56:55) Hmm. Silvan (57:17) allegedly, according to my friends, cannot confirm or deny this. ⁓ But you know, you would never have a hookup that lasted this long. And in a way, you know, there is this, yes, to avoidance, meeting with each other, but there's also something that brought them back every time. And they're not in each other's spheres enough physically to be like, there's no proximity really there. It's only when they were playing each other a couple of times a year, three or four times a year, for example. So there is this sort of commitment to each other in a way that's unspoken. Eliza Butler (57:52) Mmm. Declan (57:55) suppose you could say that's the love. That's the love that they have for one another. That is what is overriding all of this. That's making them act in a way that they typically wouldn't where they would usually give in to their sort of self-defense mechanisms and they would just go about their regular patterns of how they usually deal with stuff like this. But that love and affection they have towards one another seems to just glue them together. Eliza Butler (57:56) Yeah. Declan (58:25) no matter how far they sort of try to stretch each other apart. So I suppose that's a nice thought. Eliza Butler (58:34) Yeah, absolutely. And I think also, just remembering that like these were like two generational talents who like happen at the same time, right? Like, they're, they're literally parts of their experience that no one else can understand, right? Which they they say from the beginning, I think, like, maybe it's in the books, but just from the beginning, no one else understands this pressure, how this feels. Right? Like that's the right why the rivalry is like created in the first place, like by this like narrative that I mean, and I think they they like the narrative they like competing against each other. They don't hate each other like that all belongs like the business of hockey. But ⁓ you know, that I think it's like two people who are like extremely special in this way who are able to recognize together. We are the only ones who are like this right now. There is no one else. Declan (59:09) Mm. Eliza Butler (59:28) But yes, I agree the love, think. I mean, we can all look back and be like, I was there for the, you know, there was something. ⁓ Silvan (59:38) Yeah, and when we look back then, is there one person that you felt was more emotionally available than the other, for example? And even thinking about Kip and Scott, we haven't really given them a lot of thought either. Declan (59:54) Mmm. Eliza Butler (59:54) Yeah, yeah, right. Because they're such a different experience, right? Like, ⁓ I think I posted on threads or something. And I might have put this on one of my ⁓ Instagram posts, but like, Scott Hunter is like the only love bomber who actually meant it. Right? Like I saw that. I, there was like, it's like such a beautiful declaration of like, I like you and I want you to stay and please stay. And there's this other part of me like those like alarm bells of like, my and I, again, I know that's not what it was, but like, it's a script. You know, like he was like waiting. Declan (1:00:25) It's still a dream. Eliza Butler (1:00:32) ⁓ So he had all this love and he was just waiting, which is I think very precious also. And then he meets Kip who was like, yeah, you can have all of this. Declan (1:00:42) Yeah. Silvan (1:00:47) Yeah, a kip who's persuaded by a tip! Declan (1:00:48) It's funny. In the book, Kip is so resistant to Scott club bombing. Scott won't take the suit off Scott, he won't allow Scott to pay for certain things, he doesn't want Scott to pay for his holiday, he doesn't want Scott to pay his student loans. Scott offers all of this in a really authentic, truly meaning it way. But, Kip Eliza Butler (1:01:01) Thank you. Declan (1:01:20) never accept because it would be a compromise to their relationship. He wouldn't feel it's an equal partnership anymore and that's why he doesn't. So Yep in the book actually demonstrates how to push against love bombing by reaffirming that no this would unbalance our relationship and it wouldn't feel equal. So let's not do that. Eliza Butler (1:01:28) Mm-hmm. Silvan (1:01:48) I mean, if some daddy wanted to pay for all my bills and my schooling, fair game. I'm not stopping Eliza Butler (1:01:55) I think I was like, because after I had read the book by the, I guess I must have read the book before the episode came out. Because I was like, why wasn't the student loan offer in there? And I thought, oh, because in United States in 2026, nobody would turn that down. Like exactly like you're saying, Sylvan, you're like, if someone wants to pay, the book was said, like that book is said like 2012. Like you were able, people were able to be like, no, I will pay for this myself. And now everyone would be like, what is he talking about? Declan (1:02:23) you Eliza Butler (1:02:23) Take the money. I was at first I was like, why didn't they put that in? was like, because it would have been the least believable thing in the entire show actually, him turning down a $50,000 check. Declan (1:02:32) Yeah Yeah. Silvan (1:02:37) Oh, Kip with his morals, goodness gracious. But when we think about, and I know I've spoken to Declan about this ad nauseam on the podcast, but when we think about Scott and Kip specifically, what's your perspective on their relationship and the way that sort of unfolds? Because when we've spoken on the podcast before, like I've really, I've had issue with Scott. and the way he sort of wants things on his own terms and he wants, you know, that big declaration or he wants Kip back according to the TV show, you know, when he's alone on the ice rink in episode five or when he wants Kip to stay in his apartment in episode three, you know, what's your take on the way that story develops and maintains itself? Eliza Butler (1:03:35) Sure. I guess I would say like, maybe I'll be a Scott defender here, even if I did just call him a successful love bomber. I think he did not, this is his first relationship. He didn't know. He just like found this person who he was so into and who was into him. And he was like, no, I'm keeping you. Right. And like, is that like a healthy dynamic in real life? No. But like it is really compelling. And I think, I guess in my, and maybe this is informed by the books, but You know, and I think they said there might be a spinoff show for Skip and Scott to see like the in-between ⁓ from, you know, the end of episode three to episode five, because there is, you know, at least in the books, there's a lot of in-between there. ⁓ know, episode three ends, it seems so sadly. ⁓ But there's a lot of story between that we didn't, and I understand why we didn't get it, but. I think he didn't know how to have a relationship. He didn't think he could have a relationship. I've also had this thought that like, if Shane hadn't met Ilya, he would have done the Scott Hunter thing of just like staying closet and be like, I'll retire someday and then I'll figure this out. Right. ⁓ And so now here Scott is with this like this possibility that he did not even think could happen. And he just like went a little bonkers with it. Declan (1:04:49) Yeah. Eliza Butler (1:05:01) Like, you know, was like everything opened up at once for him, ⁓ which was also scary, right? Cause then they're like at the art gallery and he has the panic attack. And it's like, nobody would have thought you guys were together, but now everybody kind of thinks you guys are together because you're freaking out. But it was too much like, too fast. So I think he just like didn't know what he was doing. He never did it before. He just like had hookups in Ibiza or whatever. He didn't know how to actually like be a partner. Declan (1:05:20) Hmm. Like this is very true though of gay men in general. their romantic development, which is supposed to happen in your teams, is happening in their late 20s and under their 40s. And they are behaving like first love teenagers where I've been on a date with this guy for two days and I am in love and we're getting married and we're having babies. And he is my forever love and you're 15 and your parents are looking at you like, and that's not going to be happening. But they're experiencing it now because they've never been able to experience it before. They've never been able to have those milestones to learn those lessons that we are supposed to learn when you're young and you're insulated and you have your parents to back you up. But now Scott doesn't have parents. in the show in particular, he has no support network. Kip on the other hand does. So Kip is making the more mature decisions. He's being smarter about it and Kip has more experience as well, which is why he is smart enough to not accept Scott's love bombing. He's also smart enough to know whenever he's being mistreated and whenever things aren't going the right way. And he's smart enough to break it off when it needs to end. And that is showing the difference in their romantic development. Kip has been out since he's 18 years old. Kip has had relationships, not long ones, but he's had relationships. He has the experience. Scott has none of it, which is why Scott behaves like a teenager, because he's experiencing things for the first time that you're supposed to experience at those life stages, not whenever you're approaching your 40s, which I think he is in the show. Silvan (1:07:16) Yeah, and in a way, you're talking to there is this emotional maturity that Kip has over Scott from either previous relationships or his upbringing perhaps. And you're right, in a way, Scott is almost catching up to that. And I want to believe he will get there, ⁓ but there were lots of aspects that really grated me about Scott, ⁓ specifically with the treatment. and the development of that But yeah, you're right, there is an emotional maturity difference there. Declan (1:07:52) Yeah. Eliza Butler (1:07:54) And thank you so much for like, yeah, I hadn't thought about the kind of extended timeline for emotional maturity. But I think that also levels the playing field a little bit between them versus this, you know, class wise, this barista versus this like millionaire. There is like that power dynamic there, but like, kind of flipped with the emotional maturity. I really appreciate you saying that. Yeah, can you give me something to think about? Silvan (1:08:20) What I loved about what you said as well, Eliza, was Shane could have been Scott had Ilya not been around. I hadn't made that connection. And you're so right, because you could see Shane just staying closeted, maybe finding someone, maybe not, maybe hooking up, maybe not, and very much living Scott's life. Brilliant. Thank you for that. Eliza Butler (1:08:51) Again, hyper-focus, and I've thought so much about, yeah, just how these characters kind of experience life. And like Declan was saying earlier, just like Rachel Reed's at writing, ⁓ you know, she's all there to like dig into. Silvan (1:09:07) So we are going to wrap up part one there. Join us for... Part two, where Eliza still going to join us, where we're going to go deeper into the trauma. We'll talk about defense mechanisms and why humor plays such a big role in how we process this show. Declan (1:09:27) So if you guys enjoyed this episode, make sure you like, subscribe if there are any questions you have for us, let us know as well. But stay tuned for the next episode that should be out next week.