Live Line on RTE Radio 1, sponsored by Harry Curry. For fabulous ideas and great savings, the winter sale is not to be missed. Now on, in-store or at harrycurry.com. 0818 715 81 Hello, good afternoon, and you're very welcome to Live Live. The problems with codeine. These 15 medicines available over the counter in your pharmacy have codeine. And as we heard yesterday, a number of people become addicted. Caroline, good afternoon.
Hi Jo, how are you? Good. What was your journey, so to speak, Caroline? How did you get involved with codeine, so to speak, over-the-counter tablets? Well, I suppose about...
12 to 15 years ago really was when I started taking them for a kind of a daily headache, severe enough headache. And somebody just said to me, look, there's a new... great painkiller out called NerveM Plus give it a go and I did and of course it got rid of the headaches but it also gave me kind of a feeling of euphoria energised or it calmed me when I was in a very stressful job and it would calm me down and
I suppose I didn't realise when I started taking it that it was addictive. But, you know, when something has been sold over the counter, you don't really think of it in those terms. But really looking back now, I realise I was self. medicating you know and just it was a coping mechanism for me really a life coping mechanism before i realized it i was addicted to it
And I was eventually taking more and more and increased the dose to about, I would take three codeine four times a day. And I did that for years and years and obviously did.
probably untold damage to my body, you know. And you were just taking them? Just take them. I would just take them as part of my daily routine, whether I needed them or not. I became... dependent on them like don't forget there's no outward signs of abuse of this medication so it's a very secretive addiction you know like I was cutting myself and I was cutting everyone around me you know and
unintentionally you know it just gets a grip on you you know and I just became so used to taking it I just couldn't imagine I was afraid not to take it you know so and where were you like because we know that the list i won't keep going into this but the list is um Yes, in Neurofen Plus, Sorpedine, Maxi Leaf. There's a list. Everyone knows them. But you are given warnings when you're buying them over the counter. Well, initially.
Yes, yes. No, initially there was no warnings. You could just go in and get them. Okay. And there was no warnings whatsoever. But by the time the regulations and the warnings did come in, you know... hundreds of thousands of people all over this country were already addicted to them. And, you know, you just become ruthless about getting it and you just travel to get them once you wear out your welcome.
in your local pharmacies. You know, you'll get in your car and you'll like... Because I tried to get off them on my own by going cold turkey several times. And it's horrific. Like, the comedown is absolutely... horrific. It's like the worst flu you can possibly imagine. And then nighttime, you can't sleep with obviously chronic restless legs, sweating.
You know, it's really, really difficult, you know, to come off them. And then I start Googling, how do I get off these things? And, you know, there are medications. Suboxone is called. I didn't want to, like, replace one addiction for another. you know, I'd end up going back on it. So I had about five attempts over the years, which were ruthless. And then eventually what happened for me was I told somebody close to me about it.
And with their support and help, I gradually, slowly but surely, reduced the dosage until I became completely, completely off. But I knew a lot of people, Jo. When I say a lot of people, many, many people. who have taken codeine. I remember going to the hairdressers one day and taking three and the hairdresser noticing and saying to me, every person working in this salon is on them, you know.
not just takes them, but is on them, you know? So, you know, and it's such a secretive. Did you say you were taking it four times a day? Yeah, three, four times a day. Three, four times a day. So before I even got out of bed in the morning, I would take three just to start the day. This was when I was in the hype of my addiction, you know.
And I wasn't happy doing that. It was an awful shameful feeling. And that's why it's secretive, because who wants to tell anybody that you're doing that when outwardly you appear like a normal person? So what prompted you? What was the straw or whatever that broke the camel's back? I know you tried to give them up a few times yourself, but on each occasion, what was it that prompted you to give them up, to try and give them up?
To try and give them up was I started to get a bit of sense, I suppose, in my old age, and I started to Google what this was doing to my body. Okay. And that's kind of, you know, like I would go, I remember going for some facial. you know, Botox or something like that and not being able to get it because I was told I bruised too easily. And that if I, you know, if I was ever in a car accident, I would bleed out. Because it tins your blood, you know.
Things like that started to scare me and I just said, look, it's now or never, I have to do something. And so I was one of the lucky ones, you know, I was able to just, with the help and support of my family, I was able to. knock it on the head and replace it with a healthier addiction. And how long did it take you to come down off, Cody? I'd say it took, I'd say...
It took me a couple of attempts to even do it that way, Joe. That's how hard it is. And I'd say over a period of six to eight months before you're completely rid of it and it's out of your body and that you stop getting side effects. restless legs being the one that goes last, you know, so at night in bed it's hard. So that's my story with it. Caroline, did you do it without any talk therapy?
Like there was a reason you were taking them or you're saying the reason I was taking them was because of the buzz I got out of it. I was so busy. I was running around the place. Yeah, well, I mean, I spoke, there's one member of my family in particular, and I spoke to that person about it a lot. And on a daily basis, I'm struggling today and I really feel like buying the package, you know.
And they say, don't, come on, you can do it. You know, it was actually my daughter who helped me through it, my adult daughter. Great. I don't know, I'd say I'd still be on them today only for her, you know. And have you checked any... Has any physical damage manifest? Well, I've since had, like, an MRI and a CT scan. And thank God I'm fine. Like, there's no damage done. I've had blood tests done. You know, there's no damage done.
You know, I'm just one of the lucky ones. I do know someone who died of an overdose of codeine in her kitchen. She took 24 one morning and died. And will you ever refuse? Will you ever chastise? Will you ever warned in a pharmacy about the addictive nature of codeine in these tablets?
Look at some pharmacies, you can walk into them today and they won't ask you any questions. And some pharmacies, you go in and you get grilled. And you have to have a spate of excuses as to why you need them for one thing or another. You know, I feel like it's very unfair on the pharmacies that they have to go through this with everybody who asks for NIRFM. But you would have your answers ready.
Of course, absolutely, you would have your answers ready with your strep throat or your, you know, your toothache and the dentist isn't open till tomorrow or, you know, you've no appointment. And it's awful. It's embarrassing and it's awful. You know, that's the rootlessness of it and, you know, the addictive nature of this medication. Like, this is why it's banned in all European countries and Australia.
Because it's not everywhere, but nearly everywhere. Well, it's prescription only in Australia. It is, and in Spain. We are very high users of it, of codeine-based products. Yeah. Over the counter. Very high. Well, when I mentioned to a number of people yesterday prescription, they said that immediately puts up the price.
People will get them somewhere. Obviously, you have to go to a medic to get a prescription. Have you any ideas of how this might be controlled? Apart from education, obviously. Yeah, well, regarding the price, I mean...
What price can you put on a person's life? You know, this medication is killing people. You know, it's absolutely killing. But it's also regarded, including a medic you told us yesterday, that it is a very good... analgesic now obviously in severe moderation in severe moderation well the fact is and it is legal yeah and it is I think it is manufactured in Ireland
I know, and they're making an absolute fortune on it. At the cost of people's, you know, mental health, like the fact of the matter is there's an awful lot of people with mental health issues in this country and with addictive personalities. You know, and it's just too readily available for them. And, you know, I just I think it should be on prescription. I think there's a reason why it's on prescription in so many countries. It's because it's just so dangerous.
And it's not unless you've been through it yourself that you'd really realise how dangerous it is and how easy it is and how it can progress then to other addictions, you know, like... When it no longer serves its purpose, people will go on to something stronger. And I was just lucky that didn't happen to me. But I mean, there should be...
a national helpline or, you know, there should be somewhere for people to turn to. Yesterday we were told, I don't know in front of me, but yesterday we were told it was poisons.ie. There's a hapline. No, that was in relation to another medical item we were doing. I've never heard of that one. Yeah. There should be, like, a bigger warning on the packet. You know, there should be... a helpline. There should be somewhere.
There was a number of suggestions yesterday. One, your PPS number. But again, there's no central database. Not even in our hospitals is their central database. So how you would connect pharmacists, I do not know. Someone else made a simple suggestion, just fill out a form. short form even to give your details so
I don't know what the solution is. Stay there, Carol. Maybe people listening to stories like yourself, Caroline, are the solution. Mary, joe at rt.ie 51551. Mary, good afternoon. Hello, Mary. Hello. Hello, Joe. Good. Mary, what was your drug that you became addicted to? My drug that I became addicted to was gabapentin. Three years ago, Joe, I had back surgery and it was put on gababenton and took it for a few months.
didn't agree with me that well but anyway I took it as I was told to and then I went off it and when I did I Absolutely crushed. I just slowly went downhill, went to my doctor. She'd done blood, tried everything, thought it was my thyroid, thought it was lots of things, couldn't find anything. I continued and eventually...
It went to the state that I just couldn't eat. I couldn't breathe. I was really in a bad state and I was admitted to hospital. I had all the tests done in the hospital, which were very good. They told me there was no red flags. just I was in full cold turkey withdrawal and then I unfortunately they told me I have to go back on it to stabilize my body and then when they put me back on it sent me home with a weaning, just a timeline to wean off it. And when it came to the end of weaning off it,
It was just so, so hard. My GP recommended medical supervision. I was taken into hospital for three weeks to take me off it. I was never on medication for anything before this. It was just a life-changing experience. I was just, you know, it's three years ago now and I'm still having burning and side effects from it. I was told the healing is very, very slow. I will get there. I am improving, but...
It's just, I think this drug is, I know there was some talk about making a control drug and it's used by people, but I just think it is addictive. I got totally addicted to it. I was never on medication in my life before that. I was healthy. You know, I was out exercising. It just floored me. And it's just to be aware this can happen. Maybe not to everyone, but it is happening to people. And were you warned, Mary, that this could be? No, I wasn't. I was told when I was discharged that, look...
People ringing the hospital here with back pain are usually not taking their medication. Make sure you take it and make sure you don't leave a day between prescriptions. your prescription is ready to go when you're run out. Exactly. Even missing a day would be problematic. Yeah. And that's, I thought about that later, why that was so, that was emphasised. So stringently, yeah.
Yeah, so stringently. And I just thought, no, you know, there's something this... But probably being naive, I should have looked up more. I'd just done what I was told. I really thought that... no drug could do what this has done to me and it's been a really I suppose a learning curve that you would think just to make people aware
what can happen. I know people that's on the drug and are slowly trying to come off it and finding it very, very difficult. Like my GP was very good. She just said, look, if I was older, a lot older, she'd... she wouldn't put me through coming off it. I'd probably have to stay on it, but I was too young to stay on it, and I'd have to just wean and come off it. And I did. I'm not on it anymore, but I'm still suffering some of the side effects, and it's been a...
A really, really tough three years now. And Mary, the treatment, the condition it was treating, when you finished... It was nerve pain. Okay, but when you finished on it, on the gabapentin... Did the condition come back? Did the symptoms come back? Yeah. The symptoms from withdrawal, you really, I suppose... I didn't eat. I didn't sleep. I was lost weight. Even your cognitive ability, your memory, your weight, everything was affected. My consultant said it's like...
your whole receptors, it interferes. It is for epilepsy culpunctions. That's what it was painted for. It's been given off label for nerve pain. But it just, my whole, I suppose... You have to retrain your brain to deal with everything, your receptors. Everything has been interfered with. And it's been really... a shocking experience and something that you think, you know, this is not real, this couldn't be happening, you know.
It is real. And it did happen. And my GP was very good. She said, it is real. You just have to embrace each day. And also, she said, the healing, it won't be by the day, by the week. You'll have to do it in chunks. Every three months, every six months, every year, you'll see yourself. It's very, very slow. And they were right. I didn't believe it could be so slow, but it is.
I'm still not 100%. I have energy dips burning, but this is 100% damage from the drug. And I have no doubt in my mind that it's anything else. It is 100%. damage from the drug. And it's just to make people aware that maybe doctors not to hand it out so easy at the first resort, maybe to try something else first. you know, make people aware. I'm going to a report by Mary Carolyn. So it's a court report from the Irish Times in 2023. Coroner calls for prescription medication.
nicknamed coffin tablets to be reclassified as controlled drug now concerns were raised over potential use of pregabalin which is a sister drug apparently of gabapentin which is licensed for treating epilepsy, nerve pain and anxiety being sold on the streets. For a euro, a tablet. That's right. And then the HD...
The Health Products Regulatory Authority, the HPRA, they then issued the same as a gabapentin and pregabalin, which gabapentins, which were expanded warnings. They issued expanded warnings regarding the symptoms. for abuse, dependence and withdrawal. It says gabapentin and pregabalin are authorised in Ireland for neuropathic pain in adults, specific forms of epilepsy and anxiety.
order, generalised society order. They say drug dependence including may occur at therapeutic doses. This is basic dosage. You could become dependent. Yes, I do agree. I think I've talked to people I've met, I've looked into this quite a bit. And you can become addicted to this. I mean, I wasn't abusing it. I was just on the... following the prescribed medication that was given to me. And you can 100% become addicted to it. There's no...
I have no doubt in my mind. As I said, I've never had dealings with medication. I was never on anything. But this has definitely changed my life. I've been, I mean, I went cold turkey. It was just... really It just affected my life really badly. Mary, you used that phrase, cold turkey. How do you know it was cold turkey? He told me when I was admitted. He said, you're actually... I left it...
I left it a while because you don't know what's wrong. You say, well, I've had back surgery. I'm walking. I'm doing my exercises. Then it just, you know, nobody could say, well, what is wrong? She's really not, you know, she's going downhill a bit. I mean, the support of family is important and friends. And you just say, you know, keep going, you'll get there. But I wasn't. I was actually getting worse all the time. And when I was brought into hospital...
He said to me in the A&E, he just said, is this like a train trucking through your body, sending off sparks and heat and you just can't breathe? And I said, exactly. He said, well, you're just in full withdrawal, he said. from Gabba Benton and he said that's what it's done to you and it's like you know something But I presume there's arguments that Gabba Benton and it's just they're pre-Gabbalan
are effective for many people in terms of neuropathic pain. That's it. And I've spoke to my GP and it is prescribed for people. And it is effective. But you don't think the warnings are strong enough? No. The warnings are not strong enough. Okay, stay with us, Mary and Caroline. Joe at rt.ie 51551 text. Talk to Joe on 0818 715 815. Talk to Joe on 0818 715 815. Hello, Joe. How are you? Good. Your comment, please. Well, I was born and raised in the States, in Brooklyn, New York. Okay.
As a teenager, I know that there was a particular cough medicine that had codeine in it, and it was available over the counter. A lot of people in my crowd, age crowd, used to drink it to get high. And unfortunately, it really, in today's terms, was a gateway drug because any drug pushes around would...
say, well, I have something even better for you. And eventually, I know at least three people who died because they had gone on to heroin. So long story short, about at least 30 to 40 years ago, in the states um anything with codeine headache release cough syrup that sort of thing had to be by prescription only And I am surprised that Ireland hasn't joined that. I was very surprised when I moved here nearly 30 years ago. Looking at the OxyContin scandal... Yes, I know. Sackler saga.
people would maybe have the opinion or the perception that it's easier to get very strong and addictive drugs in the United States if you watch Dope Sick, for example. Absolutely. It's really outrageous that this has been allowed to happen. It's a quick fix that has long-term devastating effects on people. So I'm very sorry that happened. I'm shocked at the availability over-the-counter in Ireland. Yes, I am. I am.
Lisa, stay there. I'll come back to you in a sec, Mary. Mary's in Leitrim. Lisa's in Dublin. Lisa, your point, please. Hiya, Joe. How are you? Good, thanks. I suppose, long story short, Joe, I... began to take Salfadine. Almost 22 years in March, actually, when I had my youngest child, came home from hospital, took them for a backache. There was no code in addiction warning or anything like that back then. Because if it was the same instruction on it, I certainly wouldn't have taken it.
But anyway, here I am, nearly 22 years later, and still taking eight every day of the week. I spoke to my GP about it. They referred me to a hospital with a methadone program. So to stop that, and it's specifically for the use of codeine. So, of course, you hear the word methadone and you kind of don't want to associate yourself with, oh, God, you know. Methadone is normally used for heroin users, yeah.
Yeah, you know, it's someone fortunate who has a really, really bad addiction. And then there's the realisation that, you know, it's just a different name. You know, I'm the same person, really. It's a drug addiction, do you know? And how does it affect... If you try and stop taking the 8-sopidine a day, what is the effect? I did it for a month.
Okay. So, a month. And I didn't cut it down, which afterwards my doctor told me the way to do it is to slowly, very, very slowly decrease. He said it takes about six to eight months. to decrease properly from that amount. Where I didn't, I just cut it. And so I was ashamed of the symptoms I got. My body, my hands were shaking, my body, I had a foggy brain. I felt a weakness as if I hadn't eaten in a year. Horrific nightmares, sweating. It was horrendous. And I went back on them.
And so here I am still, waiting on this. And the cost of them, it's €14 a packet of Salpardine, I'm told. 18 euros. Oh, that's right. Well then, tell me. How many packets are you going through a week? Well, I'd get, what, eight a day, so three days. 56. Yeah. And then another. We're into another age. So, you know, what's that, 64? Well, at least 40 euro a week. Yeah, yeah.
And he just said, well, again, what would happen if you stopped? Well, when I stopped, Joe, I genuinely, I wouldn't stop again the way I did that way anyway. I would hope that at some point I could off them. I wouldn't go through that again. That was worse than I've had three. Sorry, what was worse? Explain it to me. What was worse? The symptoms. They're so frightening, Joe. The withdrawal symptoms.
Yeah, really, really terrifying symptoms. Your hands trembling, your heart racing, like a panic attack, perpetual panic attack. for anyone who's ever suffered one or felt anything like that overwhelming sense of anxiety and almost like you're not in control of your own body or it's horrible horrible weakness and fatigue But your mind is racing, but your body is slowing down, sweating, like profusely sweating.
The realisation of it actually, the emotional turmoil of it affected me more than the physical because the physical symptoms of trying to come off it made me realise that I was addicted to it. Do you know? And it was embarrassing. It really was embarrassing. And have you had your liver checked? Well, I've had, luckily, I've had bloodstone and liver checks and all that, and I'm lucky so far. I haven't had damage, but I've been warned, very seriously warned by my own GP and another GP that...
that that will, you know... So why... Well, that sounds hard. Why won't you heed the warnings, Lisa? That's the power of the addiction, isn't it, Joe? But lots of people are addicted to... Alcohol or drugs do actually, well, a lot of the time would help. Some without help actually do get off them. Oh, they do. They do. You know, there's hope for recovery. I believe in any addiction.
you know, no matter how serious it is. But I do think that... Does your family know? Yeah. Yeah, they do. Yeah. Okay. Now, even with my kids, like, I have three adult kids, and they'd be very watchful, and... a constant, you know, You need to stop taking them. They cannot be good for you. And if that was us taking them... Well, do you find yourself taking them secretly? In other words, you put them in a coffee cup that doesn't show the fizz or... Exactly, yeah.
And that's, Joe, you know, anyone who takes them will know the sensation. And I'm not exaggerating, Joe. I really am not exaggerating. When someone who's addicted to Solzadine... finally gets them. There's like a hit from it when you drink it. It's like a high. Okay. And it's just so dangerous. Mary, does what Lisa's saying there about the withdrawal symptoms, does that any way compare to your horror story when you tried to come off Gavin Penton? Yeah.
Absolutely, Jo. I sympathise with her. It's horrendous. It's one of the worst feelings ever. And also the shame I was offered in the Luxon. I didn't want to take it. You associate that with, I suppose, drugs, heroin addicts. And I was given that to take twice. And it didn't agree with my stomach. And it is, I suppose, a mask. But you feel...
What have I done wrong? And I didn't look for these. They were given to me and I just feel the warnings weren't there. I wasn't pre-warned about the damage these drugs could do. The withdrawal effects the lady there is describing is absolutely horrendous. I totally agree with everything she's saying. Niamh is on the line. Hi, Jo. Codeine again. Is it over-the-counter medicine? Yeah, New Orphan Plus. When I was at my worst, I was taking three packs of 24 a day, so I was taking 72 tablets.
I was taking 24 just to get out of the bed in the morning, 24 in the afternoon, 24 in the evening. I had gone to the Stata, none of the pharmacists in my town would serve me so I was going out of town, driving around to see where I could get it. I stopped paying my mortgage, stopped paying my bills.
I had gone from, the buzz was gone. There was no buzz anymore. This was just literally to stop the withdrawals, to get me through the day. To just be able to survive, to mind my kids, to look after my house. The withdrawals, there's something I could never describe. The pains that I went through. I ended up going into rehab in Cormor in Cork.
and to try and get off them. I've been on a methadone program now for the last eight years and that methadone has saved my life because I was getting to the stage that I was going looking for something else because I just couldn't. Couldn't get through the day anymore. And I couldn't get the Orphan Plus. So I don't think people realise the dangers when they go into the chemistry. When did the straw break? When did you realise I need treatment? I need help.
I knew for a long time I needed help. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know where to go. I went to my GP and he put me on medication called DF118, which was another codeine-based medication. come off, the new orphan, but I ended up abusing them as well. I couldn't do it on my own. I tried to do it on my own for so long. I tried to hide it from everybody, but it was gone to the stage that I was nearly dead. I went into renal failure.
I damaged my kidneys. They went down to 19%. I was killing myself slowly. Didn't realise I was doing it because you don't see it from the outside. It's just inside my body was dying. That's frightening. We don't believe it. And when you were, where were you getting the 72 newer fan plus a day?
Different chemist. I'd start off in the morning, yeah. And I had a good job. I was earning good money. It's a good job because if not, I wouldn't have been able to be dead. It's not cheap, yeah? No, no. Now what, you go from chemist to chemist? Yeah.
Yeah. I'd have to have a packet for myself to get up in the morning so I knew before I went home from work in the evening I'd have to have a packet ready for the morning. So you went home in the evening and you couldn't find a packet? Oh, I'd be shook. I'd be irritable, I'd be stuck to the bed, I just can't function. It's a horrible life, a horrible life. I'd have to, yeah, I'd have to. And who around you knew?
Nobody until I actually attempted suicide and it was only then that people discovered what was going on. I left people in then. I couldn't live and I couldn't continue the way I was going, Joe. I couldn't live like that anymore. Life was just, you know, it's horrible, horrible. It's a horrible addiction. Okay, stay with us, stay with us. More people will join you after this break. Joe at rte.ie. Talk to Joe on 0818 715 815.
Talk to Joe on 0818 715 815. I'm Joe at RT.ie. In one sense, we are, the wrong word used to people with alcohol addiction, but... Irene was in rehab for alcohol addiction and you were struck by the number of people addicted to codeine to these over-the-counter tablets who were in rehab as well, Irene. Hi, Jo. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. So I also worked for 22 years in pharmacy. Okay. So I left pharmacy to go into...
Now, thankfully, I wasn't addicted to any of these over-the-counter products. Okay. My thing was just alcohol. I was getting far too fond of it. taking a drink every night. It didn't mean that I was drunk every night, but I was just too fond of it. And as I was getting older, I'm 52 and I thought, no, sorry, this is not right.
My ex-husband, when I was separated, but he died directly from alcohol-related problems. So he had a terrible fall, and it frightened the life out of me. He literally died with such massive heads. head injury and concrete. So I just thought, no, like, sorry, you know, getting older and the rest. So, yeah, I went in for eight months to an amazing place. Not going to tell you anything about the name or blah, blah, blah. And I met some lovely people.
Not many because it was a small place and I did eight months and it was tough. But also, you know, we got friendly and get close to people living right side. It's a women's only, by the way. So there's a couple of people. And I said, you know, because I knew all about codeine addiction. And I think there was a doctor you had on yesterday. I think there was a doctor that said something like, it's not the codeine per se on its own. If it was alone, it's not going to kill you.
Well, I mean, I'm sure it does. I mean, I'm not a pharmacist. I worked there as an open counter. I worked very closely and I heard... I loved learning and I used to listen to everything I said, basically. So... It's what it goes with in this country, so parathesamol or ibuprofen. So neurotemplosis, the neurotemplosis, the ibuprofen one, the stronger codeine, and then the salt insoluble, which is, anyway, couldn't get to the point.
a couple of girls were saying they chewed them like pastils, fruit pastils. I was going, what? Did you not know? Did you not realise that this stuff is serious? Didn't care, didn't care. Along with maybe an alcohol addiction and cocaine or whatever, crack cocaine, all this stuff. And I was mesmerised and I was like, is that why your stomach, one of the girls, I'm 52, she's a bit younger.
I said, is that why your stomach is like... Now, we were close enough at the stage, we'd have a giggle about it. Her stomach was huge. She said, that's never going to go. The doctor told her it would never get better because she'd bleed and she'd... Cold complications, yeah.
Okay, so stay there, Aaron, because I also want to ask you about your time behind the counter in the pharmacy. But I want to bring in Jason for a sec. Jason, good afternoon. Codeine again. You were addicted for how long? Ten years. And you're off for 10 years, which is really important to say in the same breath. How did you, one, start? And above all, how did you manage to get out? Went into the pharmacy. I'd done it myself.
Okay. How did you start? I went in for back pain. Okay. And they recommended sulfate and like... I'd never taken them before, and then when I took them, it was like euphoria, you know? And it was like to, just to, you were constantly chasing that euphoric. And you were just taking more and more and more and more and more. And how quickly did you need more and more and more? After two boxes.
That's incredibly quick. After 48, I was like, and then I was constantly going, chemists were refusing me and saying, no. I've taken away too much and I drove to country together. Did you? Have you ever stopped? You drove to country because you were being asked who these were. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So 10 years. How did you pay for that, by the way? It's not cheap. Okay, so how did you stop? I just went called Turkey.
You know, and comments from family as well, like, Jesus Christ, look at the boxes are all over the place. What are you doing? So with comments from the family about the boxes rather than... Your state. But I didn't care. I basically, like, I was giving them the French Connection UK, if you want to put it that way, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what you were telling him to do, yeah. And you mentioned earlier, how did you stop? I just, mentally, I had to...
Get it into my head. Look it. You're destroying yourself. You're... And actually, I collapsed one day and I ended up in Balmout. Yeah. And I was in Balmout for three weeks and the... neurological department said to me, you're turning your brain to mush. With the code in? Yeah, yeah. And what was cold turkey like? Oh, my Jesus. Don't talk to me. Cold up in a ball. Don't get out of the bed. Don't do, you know? Yeah.
You know, there comes a point where, you know, you're going to have to do it. Like, to me, I see heroin addicts. And I go, Jesus, if I could only help them, if I could only, you know, like, tell them you will get through it. But, you know, it's hard, very hard. But you got through it on your own. Yeah, yeah. That's incredible. And how are you doing now, Jason? Great. Unbelievable. Good lad. Good lad. Yeah, yeah.
So the argument yesterday and still there today, codeine, these over-the-counter medicines, there's 12, 15 of them actually that you can buy over-the-counter that have codeine in it. that they should be in some way made harder to get. Have you any ideas on how you'd make them harder? Description only. Yeah, but that means you have to go, well, unless you have a medical card, that means you have to go and pay a doctor.
Yeah, but then that's going to distract you, isn't it? It's going to stop you from pain. It's like you to visit the doctor and the doctor denying your prescription. You're going to have to end up going right. Well, there's only one way out of this, is not to take them anymore. And suffer the consequences while you're doing it. And that would... Is there an easier way? Would it then develop, Jason, a black market? No, because... For salt but in or whatever. No, but, come here, I was in...
I remember you used to be able to buy them in Spain and Tenerife and everything like that. And they took them off the shelves completely. So you can't buy them in Spain, you can't buy them in Tenerife, you can't buy them in wherever. And when I was down to those countries or those, you know, areas where I knew I couldn't get them, I had the suitcase loaded with them. Wow. You know what I mean? You go prepared.
Oh yeah, completely, completely. And have them taken out of boxes and like stuffed into the legs of jeans and whatever, rolled up completely. And then when you got there... the minute you got there you were like okay right unload and plan how many you'd need every day yeah how many you'd need every day duration. So what would you say, now you became addicted very quickly, what would you say to people who are using a box a day or whatever, or 12 a day, what would you say to them?
The first thing they say is not do me any harm, Jason. That's what they say. No, it's going to escalate. Okay. You know, it goes from 2 to 4 to 6 to 8 to 10 to 12. And there comes a point then where you never have enough. Okay. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, of course I do. It's just, you know, it's like a person, as we said, on heroin. They need it. They can't do without it. You know, and your body, with Cody in your body, you know, like it accepts it very quickly.
And then when you're taking them like, you know, having a cup of tea or... Yeah. Well, is it that... Like I mentioned alcohol earlier on and Irene who was in rehab for alcohol. But like compared to alcohol, addiction to codeine is... Like, what was it? A hundred times. Well, the treatment figures for 2023. Opiates including codeine, solpidol and solpidine, 538. Alcohol, 8,138 treatments.
In a 2019-2020 survey of 70,000, there was an estimate 70,000 used opioid pain relievers in a non-medical way. in the previous 12 months. But there are 578,000 users of alcohol who have an alcohol use disorder. So is that why... It hasn't got the attention because alcohol is such a problem in this country, comparatively. That doesn't negate it, says you. No, it doesn't negate it. Alcohol, right, does a wider community there.
that take care of that. There's loads of centres you can go to, AA and... Do you know what I mean? Like, you can't go, oh, esophageal addiction centre or... I know what you mean. It doesn't have the same. Well, the reason it doesn't have the same profile is it doesn't have the same numbers by a long shot. But that in itself... It doesn't have the same numbers because it's a hidden... Addiction. Yeah. Okay, stay with us if you can. Joe at rt.ie 51551 text. Talk to Joe on 0818 715 815.
By the way, apparently all rehab centres do accept people of codeine addiction. And that's where the figures come from. To come back to you, you were on, I hate even saying these figures, 72 a day. What was the treatment in the treatment centre you went into, Niamh? So firstly, I had to detox. So it was a separate part of the treatment center, so I detox for a week and then it was a nine month program.
Again, a lot of counseling, a lot of work that you do on yourself. And, you know, everyone was like, you know, something had to have happened in your past. And, you know, why were you taking them? But it was actually, it was because I enjoyed the feeling that it gave me. There was no other reason. Hard. And then, well, was it hard? Did they have to work hard? Did you have to work very hard? Extremely hard, yeah. Extremely hard. And what was the pathway like? Was it...
Was it stony? Did you think of turning back at any stage? Loads of times, yeah. Loads of times. And when I came home then, try and put my family back together again. When you become an addict, you become not a very nice person. I didn't like to personally have become the lies I was telling, the things I was doing. A lot of guilt, a lot of shame. Yeah, you just become not a nice person.
And Lisa is still there. Lisa, would you ever think of, when you say you put your name down for the clinic in Beaumont, and I presume for any addiction clinic, it doesn't matter what you're addicted to, they will...
they will treatment. Have you any idea what the regime is like, Lisa, given that you put your name down for it in Beaumont? Oh my God, a little bit of information, Joe, about it, that it's basically a methadone kind of substitute. I back... peddled away from it immediately when they said that word initially because well I suppose the audacity of me to judge anyone with addiction when
I'm addicted. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I know. If I'm honest. I don't know, Joe. I wondered just today talking to you. If you're stopped at a Garda checkpoint and breathalyze, is it checked for codeine? It is, yeah. There is a drug test now, yes. They call it drug driving and drink driving. So there are tests, absolutely. They mustn't test for... I mean, I've been recognised several times, sometimes literally just after I'd taken Salpudine. If I'm honest, Joe, if I'm completely honest...
I think that Salpardine use, overuse, would impair driving or the lack of Salpardine because I have driven. I mean, I remember I was in Donegal on a holiday. to and I forgot to bring salpidine and I couldn't get them up in Donegal and I got up and got back into the car and drove back down. Imagine. Until you can find somewhere. Let me bring in Gabriel O'Farrell. Gabriel, what happened to you Gabriel?
You're in back pain. You're back pain. Yeah, listen, it was back pain, and it was bad enough that the newer friend wasn't doing quite the job as I thought it would, so I said, I'll take the newer friend plus. Now, look, I mean, coding, I wasn't too much aware of that, but...
Shortly after I was in a cinema one day with my wife, I sat there and at the end of the film I said, Jesus, I actually don't really feel as if I'm quite with it here, you know. Now look, I wasn't staggering around, I wasn't blurring my words, but it was enough to say...
And about two days later, I said, you know, it's got to be something. Put it down to the new FM Plus. Stopped taking the tablets. Absolutely fine, you know. Now, listen, there wasn't, there was no reaction, violent or anything, but I was just... slightly detached. But you felt it was a warning sign. Absolutely, yeah. So I'm just listening to the other people on the radio and thinking, I mean, they must get a heads up of some sign, of some sort, you know. So, look, I mean...
You know, compared to some of them people, it wasn't that bad. But it was enough to say, look, get off the codeine, you know. And I haven't touched it since. So what do you think? Should it be more warning? Should it be on prescription? No, I would say no. I don't think it should be on prescription. I think people do need it. Maybe something...
A bit more warning maybe on the leaflet, because I would read the leaflets before I took any of that stuff, you know. But it's just, as I say, it was just, and it's hard to describe, but it was, as I say, you weren't quite with it really, you know. And I'd love to give you a heads up because it was weird, that's what it was. And as I say, the coding, that's all it was, the coding. So I do wonder if some people have a heads up and they just keep taking it.
and ignore that type of sign. Well, of course you do. I mean, I did. Yeah, I mean, you just put it down to, oh, you know, sure, any medication you take. has a risk of a side effect and your body will become accustomed to it. I would agree with you there. The experience I had was just I wasn't quite there. I wasn't stoned. I wasn't, as I say, staggering. I was sitting down. It was only after the film I just felt detached.
I know the feeling you're talking about. It's like you're not inside your own body or something. It's a very strange experience. But it should be on prescription, I think. Yeah, I mean, as Joe was saying there, though, I mean, Jesus, I mean, the doctors are there enough. If you add that on to it, I mean, look, yes, but I mean, next thing, alcohol's on prescription and cigarettes and everything, you know, I mean, where do you draw the line? I mean, the nanny state.
You know, certainly there should be more warning maybe, but the prescription is very expensive. Doctors are busy enough as well, yeah. Well, I think that the awareness is another issue because... Most people won't read a leaflet anyway in medication. But pharmacists are, and it seems that most pharmacists do oblige. And do feel the obligation to tell you they are addictive? Is it for yourself? No more than three days?
They do say it. The cigarettes and vapes, aren't we? And it doesn't go in. You need kind of, I think, Joe, a more kind of basic language, not medical language, not, you know. medicalising the issues. I think we need... Smoking in young people is going down in Ireland. Thomas, good afternoon. Good, how are you?
Not too bad, no joke. You're on Salpinion at the minute. You feel you're addicted. A lot of people are on it, but they're flying. But you feel you're addicted. I just kind of was listening to some of the people there that, you know, that are listening, like, and talking about the whole situation. I just kind of have to have three sulfidine in the morning before I start work. Okay. Like I'm a cleaner and it's just to face people in the morning that that's what I have to take, you know.
And I went to my doctor and the doctor told me, you know, that I was asking him for a substitute to try and wean me, you know, off it. And he told me that, you know, what you should do now, he says, try and stay off them and go for a walk. Well, it's easier to go to a pharmacy instead of talking to your pharmacy in the future, like for 75 euro, whatever it is. And what happens, Thomas, if you don't have your three in the morning? Oh, I just...
I'm a different person. I just can't. I feel kind of vulnerable. I just feel kind of like rattling and all that sort of stuff. I don't have confidence. But I mean, Joe, the other thing is, I mean, some people feel they need a drink before they can face the day. You know, so that's what I'm saying. If we keep going down, you know, doctors and that type of add-on cost. Look, there's a certain amount of responsibility there. We should have ourselves...
When I got that feeling in the cinema, you know. Yeah, when you were able to, you were able to. Yeah, no, I'm not saying everyone can. Yeah, they can't. Not everyone can go to a doctor either. Yeah, I understand that. Thomas, Thomas. You spoke to your GP. Went to my GP and I've just felt that, you know, I needed to talk to someone. Yeah, fair play. That's a great start. Fair play. I am.
When I was on Salfadol, which I could get a lot of people now and again, they were even better, but I'll stick to the Salfadine because it's easier to go to a pharmacy. And you can actually go to the pharmacies that you know that you can get without getting the third degree.
You know, you can go to a shop there and you see Jung behind the counter and you can answer the questions before she asks them and she'll know what you're talking about and you go, Grant, thanks, bye. And even when I was going to Tipperary there a couple of months back, I was able to...
went to a shop there and you know you're kind of like talking to someone and you're asking for that and then they'll just give it to you because you're kind of in deep conversation with someone and i was only using that as a tool you know to get them Yeah. So you had your few tricks and tips. Oh, you have your few tricks. Oh, you get the tricks. Because you're thinking ahead. I have to always think ahead. Like, the weekends is not too bad because I'm off the weekends. Mm-hmm.
I can maybe take one. I'm okay. But come Monday, you have to have your feet. And then you get peers tired in the afternoon because you don't need them then because you kind of have your morning over with. And then you're grand. But no, I won't be able to function.
I'd love to be able to get advice off someone. I'm just showing what you could do. I know people are saying cold turkeys. It's very hard. I smoked before and I gave them up and whatever. The best advice is what you're doing already. Go to your GP. If you want, but always go to a medic. That's my point. But you don't have something that can kind of help you. You know, like if you're smoking, you have this thing and you're later than you're grand. But these...
You know, Joe, it's just... And the amount of people that say to me, Thomas, don't be, you know, going and taking them, you know, that sort of stuff, you know. But anyway, so look... Joe, that's my story. Well, first of all, Thomas, you're great strength and good energy in terms of going to your GP. Don't give up and mind yourself.
Thank you very much. Good person. Thanks, Thomas. Stay listening today, for example, to Elizabeth, who's in Cork. Elizabeth, your point, please. Hi, Joe. I just wanted to say that I've suffered from... chronic back pain over the last eight or nine years and at various points going to a pain specialist was prescribed. things like Salfadine, Salfadol, Tramadol code for different medications.
I'd come home or I'd go to the chemist and I'd come home with a bag full of boxes, like multiples, you know, could have been six or eight boxes of salfadine. This was based on the prescription. And I found on each of the occasions over the few years that I... started taking those tablets, within taking the first tablet or two, I would find myself very sleepy, very tired. I would have low blood pressure anyway. And I had young kids at the time, and I just said,
I fell asleep nearly at the kitchen table one day after it was Tramadol. And, you know, it was a Monday. We were doing homework or whatever. And I realised I can't take anything with codeine based or anything like that. So my point was, like...
maybe a bit of responsibility on the prescriber that, you know, somebody tries the medication for a couple of days, you know, two, three days, see how they react. Because if you're in chronic pain and whatever, you know, nerve pain, whatever the pain might be. and you have a box or a bag full of tablets that are going to take the edge off it, you're going to keep taking them. You know, unless you might have the wherewithal to say, I don't feel right on this, so I'm going to stop it.
which is, you know, what I did. And, you know, I found other ways and exercise and swimming and, you know, lots of other ways to try and manage it and paracetamol, you know, regularly if I'm really... having trouble with it but I just felt you know
It could have gone the other way. I could have said, well, you know, I'll just push for this. It's making me sleep. If I'm asleep, I'm not feeling pain then, you know, or if I'm feeling, it just made me feel skittish and just not, I just didn't like it. So I said, this isn't for me, but. I had paid for all those medications. You seem to have an awful lot of tablets.
Well, it wasn't at any one time. It was just one year it might have been salsadine. Then I knew I didn't take it. And then another visit, it might have been trying something else. But I just knew, obviously, there's a line of tablets with ingredients. I couldn't take. My point was I had paid for all the tablets as well. They all went to waste. I did bring them back to the pharmacy. I can't take them and they dispose of them.
I did feel, I mean, I could have spent 60 or 70 euro each, you know, on buying. I didn't know when I was handing over the prescription, I was buying a bulk load of tablets. So it's just, and I know I'll question everything now, but it's just. you know it's just a different responsibility in how things are being prescribed to people and I know doctors are busy and they're overwhelmed and that but
When somebody is dealing with pain in particular, you just want it to dull somehow. But it's just doing it safely. How are you coping with your back pain now? Well, I swim three times a week. I walk, I exercise. I get injections maybe twice a year. They seem to be helping. And I only really take something if I feel I really have to, because I don't want to have all those kind of things in my system. But I can imagine, you know, listening to the listeners today, it's so easy to...
go down the road of, you know, I'll take this because it's been prescribed for me and it'll help. It's just... a little bit of the personal responsibility and then the responsibility of a prescriber, I guess, to make it safer for people. And as you say, you looked at your children and you said, hang on a minute, this is not going to work. No. your your reaction to the tablets in front of your children
You have to be on your, have your wits about you, if you really do. You do, because I couldn't be getting into a car and going on a school run or whatever, you know, feeling woozy or anything like that. And it's just, you know, if somebody's been prescribed something they haven't been on before that has... has an, you know, addictive nature, then a small dose to see how the person goes rather than being sent home with a box, you know, of a month's supply and, you know, then you're hooked.
Yeah. OK, well done, Elizabeth. And kind regards to you and your family. That's Elizabeth and Cork. Back after this. Talk to Joe on 0818 715 815. Mags is in Drogheda. Good afternoon, Mags. Hiya. How are you? Good. Your journey. Yeah, yeah. So I kind of, my sister messaged me to say that you were talking about it. So I logged on here. Yeah, so I...
I was in my 30s when I started. Again, like a lot of people, went to the doctor with back pain. I liked how it felt for a while and then after a while I realised... That physically, what made me realise actually, it's a bit weird, but I heard Davina McCall talking one day because obviously she's in recovery from heroin. And she mentioned, you know, how she was never sick of waking up.
in the mornings with um and not being wet and not you know for having withdrawals and that's when I realised that I was I was addicted because I used to wake up every morning and I would have had withdrawals through the night. So I would have had severe night sweats and the whole lot. It led to other addictions for me.
I'm over three years off codeine, but over two and a half years now off all drugs. I swapped one for the other. I used to smoke some drugs to give me... to calm me down if I didn't have codeine and yeah I just it's I personally think it should be prescription only I don't think it should be able to be bought over the counter I heard one gentleman talking there about how
how he was able to, you know, you can go in and you can fill the pharmacies. I think they should be stricter. I think, and there's no disrespect, there's a lot of young girls who work in a pharmacy and they're brought up to be respectful for older people. But when you know, you know, so you're coming in, so I would have kind of preyed on that a little bit. Or I think an XL sheet, like, so if you were buying it.
your name goes down and all pharmacies in the area can have a look at this sheet and see if you're a frequent buyer and talk to you with empathy and compassion and say, you know, I think maybe you have a problem and I think they should be allowed to notify the GPs. Then you're into, I hate saying it again, GDPR stuff and who can see the information and are you labelling people? I do understand that, but if you don't have a problem...
then it shouldn't be a problem is what I think. But I think for me, and I'll talk about myself personally, like if somebody had a maybe, when it was first... faced at me and my family realised what I was going through and they kind of stood and said you're addicted and when I realised I had nowhere to hide anymore. That was the beginning of the rest of my life. I'm a much happier person now.
The withdrawal is horrible. You need support going through the withdrawal. It's like, you know, it's an opiate. It's like coming off heroin. I never want to put myself through that again. There are supports out there for people as well. And I really want to say that there's fellowships, there's drug addiction services. I think there's a lot of stigma. And the HSE Drugs and Alcohol, the helpline is free from work. Oh, and they're amazing. Great, 1-800-459.
our helpline at hse.ie. That's open Monday to Friday from half nine to half five. But there are, especially now people have access to the internet. There's a lot more. tools out there, isn't there, to help people? Yeah, now I think in this country we could do a lot more detox beds. The way things happen for me, I kind of had to go through the detox on my own here, but you know...
They say that you have to show willing to get into a detox bed and a detox unit. And I know the ward in Beaumont is amazing and the stuff that they do is amazing. But you have to be shown willing. And I think sometimes somebody would get up today and think, I want to come off this. By the time they get into a bed in a detox unit, they could be dead. Right.
I used to go to bed at night and I would be petrified I wouldn't wake up the next morning because I would have taken that much medication that day but I would still get up because the physical withdrawals was a lot scarier to me at the time. than actually coming off everything and doing it that way. It's just...
It's a horrible, horrible drug. I think so many people take it and they don't even realise they're addicted and it's so easy, accessible. As you say, you're off coding for three years and off all drugs now for two. Off everything two and a half years, yeah. Stay well going forward. Mags, that's Mags Tiernan and Drota. Thanks indeed. Apologies to those who couldn't get in. Paul Mernach is on sound. Research, Richard Byrne. Producer, Shanna Gorman. Ray Darcy is next.
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