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Welcome to the I Can't Sleep Podcast with Benjamin Boster. If you're tired of sleepless nights, you'll love the I Can't Sleep Podcast. I help quiet your mind by reading random articles from across the web to bore you to sleep with my soothing voice. Each episode provides enough interesting content to hold your attention And then your mind lets you drift off. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. That's I Can't Sleep with Benjamin Boster.
Mopac Audio. The statements, opinions, and conclusions of interview subjects on this podcast are their own and not those of Mopac Audio. Thank you for joining us on this special episode of LISC, Long Island Serial Killer. But before we get started, we had a quick request. If you haven't done so already, please subscribe to the podcast and to help others find us.
We'd be grateful if you'd rate, review, and spread the word. This past Friday, May 22, 2020, the Suffolk County Police Department announced that they had identified one of List's victims. who has been known as Jane Doe No. 6 or Manorville Doe. SCPD said that in conjunction with the FBI, they made the connection using DNA technology and will soon release the woman's identity. Given this news,
We spoke with Josh Zeman and Rachel Mills, the duo behind A&E's hit series, The Killing Season. Their work did much to shed light on lists unidentified, and this ultimately helped connect the toddler to the victim known as Peaches. We're grateful for the chance to talk with them about all they've done on the case, along with their thoughts on the latest development. I thought we would just start off with this past Friday, Suffolk.
County announced that they had identified one of the unknowns, Jane Doe number six, of course, Manorville Doe, and they haven't released her identity. But what do you guys think? I mean, you guys have spent a lot of time working on the does, which was great about the killing season. But what are your thoughts about that? It's very funny because every time we're about to do a podcast, something interesting happens. The same thing.
happened with peaches we're very excited because we've always believed that identifying the unidentified along gilgo beach is really what's probably going to give us the biggest lead in solving the overall mystery. There's so much information that you can kind of get out from these individuals. Of course, who they are, but then that also kind of informs where they were placed along Gilgo Beach and why. Yeah, and that is a great point. And I'm glad you guys touched on that.
A lot of people think, well, it's just another name, but it's not because it tells you who did they run with and how did they go missing and who knows what that could lead to, really. Yeah, I mean, definitely. We felt that with all of them, like Asian male, for example, if we knew more information about Asian male, there's all these different interesting little things that you can find by figuring out where they were taken from. And I think statistically...
Or when you get into like the real profiling from geoprofiling, et cetera, where they might have been provides an interesting marker for the geoprofilers. For example, knowing that peaches was connected. suddenly expands the killer's forensic profile quite a bit. Knowing that Peaches was taken from Hempstead Park or that she was dropped in Hempstead Park, you know, that really...
kind of adds a critical piece of information. It expands the dumping grounds significantly. Well, I also think that it's super interesting. He obviously dumps Jane Doe number six, what was it, like .05. miles from the toddler, who we now know is connected to Peaches, most likely Peaches is the mother. So having the identification of Jane Doe number six, the connections just keep getting...
shorter and shorter. So I'm hoping that whoever this woman was can, you know, open up those leads to possibly peaches. You know, as you said, maybe some of these victims ran around with each other. Who knows? Yeah. And before we get too far into that, can you both give us just an overview, a little primer on the killing season? Sure. What it is, how you got into it? Yeah, I mean...
Killing Jason is a show we did for A&E a couple of years ago, executive produced by Alex Gibney. And we basically wanted to look at what a real serial killer case looks like, an investigation looks like. TV is always just portrayed as being so easy, and this one was incredibly hard. I think we were both shocked by the fact that there have been so many bodies found, yet there were so many unanswered questions.
Also, the way that Suffolk County PD was acting with regards to the case was intriguing to us. Didn't feel that that should have been handled the way it was. And obviously, just to show for us. trade the new normal for sex workers in the internet age. There's this idea of sex workers being picked up along street corners by serial killers, but that had completely changed with the bodies.
The Gilgo Beach 4. So we just did, you know, eight episodes, a huge deep dive, talked a lot with web sleuths. We love the idea of the armchair detectives and looking that way. Yeah, and to expand upon that, we started off with the Gilgo case, but soon realized through our research, as Josh said, was like blood smooth and law enforcement and victims' families.
Unfortunately, it wasn't just the Gilgo case that drew our attention. You know, cases similar all across the country. Serial killers go after sex workers. For them, they're easy prey. especially in this age that we are in. So the series started with Go-Go, but then soon kind of expanded through tendrils across the country.
Having been in this business a while and knowing how hard it is just to get anything made, and I'm not just blowing smoke, you guys did a great job just pulling it all together, especially the scope that you guys took going to Atlantic City and then south of Florida. How long did the whole thing take? I think we shot like 250 days. We went all around the country. It was just intense. And at the same time, trying to do an active investigation. So like Long Island, Atlantic City, Daytona.
Oklahoma we could have gone on and on and on very easily with the amount of tragic unexplored serial killer cases and so again we shot like 250 days we were completely exhausted just running around the country And then kind of circling back to those places to find out what had happened since we theoretically came in and like stirred up the pot, you know? Yeah, because every time we visit Daytona or Albuquerque, we kind of kick up the dust.
Because we were there, because we were talking to people, more leads would come up. And I think we went back to every city at least twice. Yeah, we really prodded a lot of the different communities. for the police departments and kind of bringing up new leads and kind of pressuring the police. So, you know, it was a show, but I think there was a little bit of activism there as well in terms of trying to...
get people to pay attention, the way in which the news covers these things and the way in which some police, not all police, but some police react to sex workers. And you kind of understand it in some respects because... These are people living off the grid, but at the same time, they're not going to get the help. The pretty white young cheerleader is going to get all the attention to the case. But these women disenfranchised, women of color.
they're not going to get the attention. And so we felt like we were trying to help give them a voice. Yeah. And just to expand upon that is like, as you probably know, finding serial killers.
from a law enforcement standpoint, is one of the hardest cases to work. Sure, maybe they won't get any attention that they deserve, the victims, but as far as... law enforcement is concerned as well it's not like these are easy cases to crack so they they were working from a very difficult standpoint as well yeah sometimes we met guys who are totally gung-ho to do it and sometimes it was just like this is a waste of money
It's not going to get solved. Yeah. Well, and it is tough because you bring up a good point with law enforcement where 80% of murder, there's some tie to it. Yeah. And when it's just random. It almost seems like a lost cause at times. I get that. The ability you had and the scope you had...
And the time sounds like a dream, but God, I can't imagine the editing. Yeah. That just gives me a nervous tick to try to figure out how to tell that story. It was tough and we didn't even have an ending, interestingly enough. Police Chief Burke getting arrested kind of became our ending in saying that, okay, hopefully with a new guard in Suffolk County, something is going to happen. The other ending...
It's just that, look at all these cases. We had no idea. And then, were they connected? You know, it was interesting. All the web sleepers were like, oh, it's four, and it's sex workers. It must be connected. And the tragic truth is like... It's sex workers because they're easy victims and four is like the number that's most manageable for a serial killer to handle before he either gets caught or kind of has to change.
You can't juggle all four bodies. So that seemed to be a number that was always a number for them in terms of a strange benchmark for some reason. Daytona 4, Atlantic City 4, GB4, you know. It's always like this kind of interesting number. Well, you start seeing connections where maybe there aren't connections necessarily. Yeah. I loved how you did take on the unidentified because...
Out of the six or so, there was Jessica Taylor and there wasn't much known there and you still took it on. Have you ever heard about the woman who woke up in a cold sweat like she just had a nightmare? but she knew what she saw while she was sleeping was more than just a bad dream. Or the violinist who disappeared from the orchestra pit in front of thousands of people in the audience.
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I thought I knew my family's backstory pretty well until recently when my older sister Jenna, who is our de facto family historian, told me a wild story that I'd never heard before. It got me thinking about what other stories I didn't know and that's why I got... What wild parties are parents hosted? And how many of those parties ended with someone getting arrested?
We had a different kind of childhood. Anyway, I've been blown away by reading some of my sister's answers, like how when growing up... My dad and his buddies would try to water ski across Lake Michigan at night. After a year's worth of answers and also photos, you have an attractive book that each time you open it, it's like a magical window into your past. So this Mother's Day.
Give a meaningful gift your family will cherish for years. StoryWorth. Save $10 on your first purchase when you go to storyworth.com slash lisk. That's S-T-O-R-Y-W-O-R-T-H dot com slash L-I-S-K. And save $10 on your first purchase. Again, that's storyworth.com slash Lisk. Now tell us, if you can, with Peaches, and she was given that name because of the tattoo, but what were you able to come up with on her story? What revelations did you bring to it? Well, Peaches was so weird because...
The consensus among the people in the know was like, if we can identify the missing and unidentified along Gilgo Beach, that is going to be the best leads for the case. Obviously the toddler, because then that just brings up like, is that his kid? So there were all these like little clues that are buried in the missing and unidentified. And there's also these other like bodies around that kind of feel connected, like just because the body is.
dismembered doesn't mean it's that serial killer dismemberment is a forensic countermeasure that a lot of killers do because you don't want your victim identified but peaches look very similar to us and i remember you always ask yourself you know, did I do enough? And I think we were just wrapping it up and somebody's like, can you please do me a favor and check with the ME's office and name it just to push. And suddenly we got, we were working with Todd Matthews.
from NamUs and we got like a weird answer from the ME's office when we questioned it like hey what's going on and suddenly it was revealed to us that one of the body parts found along Gilgo Beach was actually connected to peaches. Body parts found along Gilgo Beach were connected to peaches whose torso was found in Hempstead Park in Nassau County, which is like 50 miles away.
in a park and so suddenly as we're wrapping up the show and this was after it aired it was revealed that there had been another victim that was connected and that had not been made public and that was like why didn't they make it public Why were they hiding that information? And Peaches was connected to the toddler, right? Yeah, genetically. Genetically connected. Connected. Yeah. Just to back up for a second, you know, bringing up Jane to number six, she was...
Part of her was found so close to the toddler that so long people just assumed that there was a mother. Obviously, most likely he's trying to obfugate what was really happening. and throw people off the trail. So yeah, Peaches was connected, most likely the mother of the toddler. So that connects, I feel like that connects somehow those victims. Well, again, it's these...
countermeasures that he's doing. Like, why is he putting this toddler next to a different woman trying to make it seem like that's the mother? And her body's found in Hempstead Park way, way earlier. It opens up the amount of time that this killer is active. You know, the same thing with Fire Island Jane Doe, who's also found there, whose body parts, whose legs washed up on Fire Island in 1995 or 6.
That brings up the question is like, how long is this guy or guys out there? Jane Doe number six is just truly fascinating. The fact that she was found partly in Manorville and partly in Gilgo. And that's not just one, but the second. victim. We also found Jessica Taylor, found in Manorville, half-bound in Gilgo Beach. Well, and would you guys... Just for the listener, explain a little bit about the DNA and how they identified Jane Doe 6. Yeah. So this is...
completely interesting. This is like what they did with the Golden State Killer. Basically, they have the DNA. First, they put it into CODIS, which is like their database, but that's just offenders. And then now... as they did with the Golden State Killer, they've been searching ancestry, familiar DNA, and that was basically how they found BitRoth, connected BitRoth to Tancredi and two of those women that were found in Long Island.
But they basically did the same thing. As Ancestry.com, 23andMe, as these sites get more and more populated, there's more and more matches that are going to come out. And that must have basically been what happened. Now, we had been already pushing. Suffolk County years ago to do this, but there's a lot of hesitation on the familial DNA. It's expensive. It takes a long time. There's the legal issues. Yeah.
There's the whole privacy issue, especially when it comes to offenders, which I get, I guess. I don't do a lot of murder or felonies, so I'm not as worried about it. Yeah.
If you don't break the law, if you don't commit a felony, you have nothing to worry about, theoretically. And it makes sense that they're doing it for the victims, and hopefully... because of this they can also identify peaches and asian male and other ones yeah there's just a lot of research because you you know if you get three cousins away let's say through these
DNA databases, then you've got to do a lot of legwork to figure out who's missing and who's in the family and who wants to talk. And I'm sure there's a lot of work. It's definitely not easy. We have been looking, for example, Asian male there. There's some speculation, and this is kind of a new thing, there's some speculation that maybe Asian male is not Asian. That the bone structure might indicate Asian.
But there's also, it could be said, and it's come up recently, people looking forensically, that maybe it's not Asian. Maybe the bone structure might reveal something slightly different, Hispanic. So now when you know that information, you start looking at other Hispanic kids. If you start looking at Hispanic cross-dressers, trans who disappeared around that time, it kind of opens up the pool a little bit. So let's talk about this.
One killer versus two killers. Well, it comes up a lot and there's points to be made for both sides. Are the GB4 part of the other six? Set that up and tell us kind of where you land as of now. And I know oftentimes we go back and forth on these things as new things come to light. Yeah, I mean, there's just too many questions. First and foremost...
It's not just me who say that there's two killers. You know, that was something that came out originally, back and forth between the original police chief, Chief Dormer, and the former Suffolk County District Attorney, Spoda. It was back and forth. One killer, two killers.
I believe there are two killers, and there's a number of reasons why I believe that there's two killers. One, probably the main one, being the fact that you have the Go-Go Beach 4 who were found, complete skeletons wrapped in burlap, and then you have these other victims.
strewn about and their body parts are all different. Now everybody says, well, MO's evolved and things like that, things like this change. Yes, they do. But also the way, you know, there's a whole bunch of other issues about it.
Why were their body parts strewn in so many other different ways than the ones that were laid out? Also, if it's one killer, then, my God, you are looking at somebody who's been... out since 1996 yes you have to assume they're 18 in 1996 that makes somebody pretty old and my point in bringing up the two killer theory people
Seemed to think that we were saying how it was coincidence that they were dumping in the same spot. It was not coincidence at all that they were dumping in the same spot. One guy dumps four bodies, lays them out. This is his trophy garden. Then there's a killer who's been out there since 96, and he basically sees this as an infrantery and, you know, also a great opportunity.
for him to kind of dig up his trophy garden and scatter the rest of the remains among here. He not only taints the original killer's dumping ground, but at the same time, he had someone else to blame for it. Rach has different ideas. These are just my ideas and where I go with the whole thing. And there is evidence of territorialism among serial killers. If you look at even our most famous, Jack the Ripper, there's actually two guys. It's not unheard of. There are even two serial killers.
operating in Long Island just the previous generation, Rickon and Shulman. So the idea that there's two zero killers is totally not out of the question. Working together, that's different. Changing MOs, who knows? Also, in one of my theories, the killers operate differently. This guy, the guy who laid out the GB4, he did not want them to be found. They were completely in the brush. They were wrapped in burlap.
You would not go there and you would not find those victims unless you were looking specifically. And what we know happened was a guy happened to stop his dog along the edge when he had been looking for Shannon about two miles away. And suddenly the dog hits on these two. If you look at some of the other bodies, look at Jessica Taylor, whose torso had been laid on top of sticks in Manorville in a place.
where people go every day to walk their dogs. If you look at Peaches, her torso had been placed in a cooler in Hempstead Park on a trail that many, many people use. Jane Doe number six, her... Body parts have been put in a plastic bag on a trail that mushroom hunters use a lot. So those body parts are laid out theoretically to find. And that's a different idea than the GV-4. Those bodies were not laid out. to fund.
I'm with Josh up until he talked about body parts being thrown in the other guy's trophy garden. And then there's like, you know, a pitching contest, essentially. I think for me, that's a little bit too much like Hollywood. too much movies. But I think that whole stretch of Ocean Parkway is an amazing place to come body. Yeah, but why would police...
find these four and then suddenly a couple months later they find all these others. Because they're looking now. They're not only looking for Shannon Gilbert. Now they know there's four bodies. What else is going on around here? yeah i mean we go back and forth on this but i don't think it's coincidental i don't think two people coincidentally put bodies there it's not like staten island the clay pit ponds which is known by like
five different mob families to go bury your bodies there. And these areas happen to be large swaths of green acreage where you could pull off the highway very quickly and dump a body. And as in the killing season, we did the headlight test. Yeah. You know, and I don't know if you've been out there. I have. Yeah. You have a lot of time to get rid of a body at three in the morning. So much time. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
You can walk in there and no one's going to see you. It's going to be pitch dark. You can throw a body and get back in your car and you can have up to five minutes. Very easy. When you guys did the test, I think it's like two minutes from when you see a car because you can see it miles away. And in that two minutes, while you see headlights, you could do a lot before they could ever tell what's going on other than there's a car parked alongside the road.
Yeah, and remember, back then, nobody's really looking for a car that's parked. And so, it's just body parts in a plastic bag. That's super easy just to chuck. It's different with a whole body. Well, and just to...
Explain that the theory is that when in December of 2010, when the Gilgo Four are found, between that and when they keep looking in March, the theory is that... I guess for Josh, another serial killer came along and whether it's a pissing contest or to throw it on this guy, another serial killer kind of spreads his trophies along Ocean Parkway.
Yeah, absolutely. We were always trying to prove that. We were always trying to find like whether or not you could tell, like, had there been like a body part that had been there for so long? Was there a piece of foliage growing up around it? And nobody could tell us that. Nobody could give us that information. Obviously, we didn't have access. We didn't have clues. Remember, like, even in the South Side Sawyer in L.A. in the 80s,
They were saying it was one serial killer, and it was really six serial killers dumping women around. It's not crazy that there's that many people. I mean, in New York City alone, at any given time, there are, I think, six to eight active serial killers.
Now, when we say active serial killers, we're not just talking like the TV kind, the saddest sexual. That could also be mob guy for money, an angel of mercy, nurse. By the definition of police, it's... two victims so it sounds a lot worse than it really is but just keep that in mind and Long Island is huge huge huge if it was a city it would be like top eight Well, and one thing to kind of go along with that theory is that Peaches, he might not have separated.
peaches from the toddler if he's going back and putting trophies he could have just gotten who's who confused and put jane doe number six with the toddler not knowing who's who yeah Correct? Absolutely. I mean, what's he doing? Is he literally driving by and throwing body parts out the car window? However, there were body parts placed in different counties.
And that to me is interesting. That's like the forensic undermeasures that are going on. Separating things out, you manipulate jurisdictions, and then it worked perfectly with regards to Suffolk and Nassau County. Yeah, just not wanting to work together. And there's already Burke who's throwing a wrench into everything, but then you get another county involved and he's going to be even more hesitant to share information or whatever. Remember, the FBI has to be invited.
He does not want the FBI snooping around. Why? That's a totally different question. But, you know, why did they not make it public that Peaches was also found on Gilgo Beach? I mean, to me, that's just... horrible and what do you think's behind that is it just the basic we don't want more attention or you think there's anything more nefarious there it could just be a clerical error who i i don't know
Sure, it could be a clerical error, although that would upset me to think that something like that gets away. I mean, I always thought it was that Burke did not want other law enforcement agencies. stooping around what they were doing in Long Island. And we now know that regime had a very tight grip on its police department and it liked to know what others were doing. They ruled it like a fiefdom.
And so I don't think it's because he's Lisk. It's because that's how police departments work and absolute power corrupts. Absolutely. Well, and speaking of SCPD.
In the killing season, they kind of stonewalled you early. And then towards the end, you got to talk to Sini. How are you feeling towards how they're doing today? I'm sure individuals... have their hearts into it but it feels like it's all just a reaction to continued press whether it's you know lost girls on netflix it just never feels proactive it always feels reactive to the same story coming up
you didn't pay attention, you didn't do this, you didn't do that. Well, and that's the thing is, like, right before the Netflix Lost Girls came out, they released the photo of the belt, right? Yeah, and a website. Yeah. Are you fucking kidding me? A website? Right. That's as far as we're going? A website? Yeah, and now to avoid further questions, they're pretty much just saying go to this website. And, you know, I went to the website the other day. It was down.
Maybe that's because of all the hits, because of Jane Doe number six being quote-unquote released. They say they're going to announce who it actually is, but I'm still waiting for that. Probably today. I think today. It's today? Yeah, absolutely. But there's...
So a little information on that website. It looks like my grandmother created that website. I'm sorry. I had talked to Missy, Maureen's sister, and she had known that they were working on a website. They'd been in touch with her about it. And then when they finally release it... Oftentimes people can't access it, which makes no sense, even before there's a lot of activity. I'm not an IT guy, but it's a sad excuse for a website. Yeah.
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we dive into insane and mysterious true crime stories, most of which you've never heard of. Stories like the bizarre disappearance of Tyler Davis in Columbus, Ohio, a 29-year-old father trying to find his way back to his hotel, and he disappeared and was never heard from again. And Elizabeth Shove from Lugov, South Carolina, who was abducted from her driveway by a madman and taken to his underground bunker in the woods.
We give you all the details you're interested in hearing about without any fluff or fillers, because ain't nobody got time for that. We cover everything from psychopaths to poltergeists, so go check out the Everytown podcast, because Everytown... no matter how nice it may seem, has a dark side. Well, let me ask you about Dormer, part of SCPD. You guys had a lot of time with him. Josh, when you and I first talked...
You had mentioned some stuff about Dormer and some comments he made. Oh yeah. Can you talk about that? Sure. One of the things is like, we finished the interview with Dormer and one of the things, because he didn't ask me if I thought there were more bodies out there. So. Before he passed away, I think that was one of his big things, whether there were more bodies out there. Yeah. And I imagine, as far as the GB4, there was 2007, 2009.
And then two in 2010. And I'm always like, what about 2008? Did they miss anyone? Are there more people out there? Yeah, I mean, one thing that I think you and I spoke about recently is the Shannon story versus the GB4 story. So where do you fit on the whole thing, Shannon versus the GB4 and the issues and making those two stories public and sometimes whether it helps or hurts? Yeah, I think Shannon...
A lot of times in law enforcement, they talk about there's no coincidences. But I think with Shannon, it is a really weird coincidence that she went missing from Oak Beach. I think there's some weird things that happened that night.
but I don't think it's related to the GB4 or the other bodies. I could be wrong, but that's kind of where I land. And it can be a distraction, but it's also... part of the story so it's worth talking about and bringing up because of shannon it led to these other bodies that's kind of where i land there's a lot of new attention on the case and that's great but it seems like a lot of the attention focuses on Shannon rather than the other many other victims and I think the more we focus on Shannon
unfortunately, the less chance we have of actually solving the case. I know it's maybe obvious to think, well, Shannon is the most recent, you know, we know what happened to her the night of. Yeah. If Shannon isn't connected, and I don't believe she is either, unfortunately it takes away. I mean, I wish people knew the terrain. There's a huge disconnect in that. I wish they knew.
what that area, the swamp where she was found, and what that looked like. We now know that some other details have come out that help give us some more direction. For example, the Gilbert family tragedy where Mary Gilbert was killed by her own daughter. That helps us understand that there is a history of mental illness in the family. We're not victim blaming, but...
that does help and understand whether Shannon's freak out, what participated in it. Yes, maybe somebody did say something, but at the same time, there might have been a cocktail of recreational drugs with... other medicines that might have kicked off a certain hysteria that would, you know, send somebody screaming, you know, paranoia that would send somebody screaming into the woods, seeing the roadway.
The Long Island Expressway in the distance, again, maybe on Mali or Coke, mixed in with some bipolar medicines, could definitely overheat the body. You start, you're hot internally, you start to kind of strip down. not realizing how cold it is outside. We talked offline before, and you said to me, but it was 50 degrees. And I can tell you that 50 degrees on a windswept piece of beach is freezing cold.
It's dark. You get turned around. There's brambles. Ocean Parkway looks so close. Yeah. But there's just a wall of... foliage and vegetation that you cannot get through it's vines basically it's pricker vines there is a wall it's like 12 feet high 12 feet high of brambles you cannot literally break
through these vines to get to the other side it's crazy and we were like covered in like camo and things to try and get to the other side i can only imagine if somebody was wearing like a skimpy skirt that like And she'd be caught up. So could she have drowned? Yes. And this brings us to the other question that you wanted to discuss, which was, was she given a sedative? What happened with Hacking? Is he a killer? In my opinion, no.
Is he a guy who likes to help and does inappropriate, helpful things like give somebody a sedative? Yes. Could he have given her a sedative and that's part of why she died? Yes. It's not out of the question. That could have definitely happened. What do you think? Well, I think there's a chance. It's hard because Oak Beach and the neighbors and who talks to who and where they heard it from becomes this weird echo chamber where it's hard to track down.
what's rumor and what was really said and what someone heard forth hand i'm just gonna throw out numbers here there's a 70 chance that shannon had some sort of psychotic break some bipolar lack of sleep sure some drugs and succumbed somehow even though she was so close to the road but she died out there and then there's another 30 percent or 35 chance that Hackett was involved somehow he was called over to help and things didn't go well sure
And then you break down that chance. Did he give her a sedative and then send her on her way? The cobble of eyes wide shut killers. Just like, dude, think about it. That's not how it happens. Everybody online, I love all the interest, but they're like, oh, you know, Michael Pack, he was the one. Brewer, he was the one. It was like, why would this guy pick up this girl with this whole paper trail and video trail and audio trail?
bring her out here like you wouldn't do that like if you look at the way it really happens go look at the gb4 and how that killer picked them up Leave your phone. I'll meet you around the corner. Worrying them with drugs. Like that's how these guys, if you're going to do that shit.
That's how you do it. You're not like calling somebody to your own house where there's like private gates and nosy neighbors. And I think what leaves the door open for some hapless, nefarious... activity in oak beach that night with shannon is the idea that hackett did not go get those tapes and save them he was the busy body he loved to play junior detective and he wanted to help and there are these tapes
that were sitting around for a week that he knew would have something on them. And he's like, yeah, I never went and got them. That's very suspect. That he never went and got the tapes? Yeah. Well, I think when it comes to that, there's a lot of... what we don't know about Hackett. You know, Mary Gilbert saying she called him. I'm not even sure that happened. To be honest with you, like, Mary Gilbert was prone to hyperbole. She wasn't all together with it either.
not trying to besmirch anybody but like we interviewed her it was a bit of a crazy town not in a negative way like obviously something happened with her child obviously the police did not do a thorough job in investigating her child's disappearance, but... She was pulling a lot of things out of thin air. Obviously, Hackett's dumbass behavior makes him look guilty. But, like, was he calling her and saying all these different things? I'm not quite sure.
His behavior is dumb, too. You know, it's like a lot of a lot of wacko people, to be honest with you, kind of getting together and kind of echo chambers and blame game. You know, you interviewed them. You would know. I know. I know. And that's it's weird, though, when you get when you deal with Oak Beach and different families there and different players.
And then like we talked with Alex Diaz, Shannon's boyfriend, who's no saint and he'll admit that, but he was one of the more normal people out of everyone involved in Shannon's story, which says a lot. Yeah. Did you guys ever get to talk to Brewer? No. I mean, and you know we talked to you, but like, again, it's like, these guys are arguing, like, this gets back to why didn't Hackett go pull the tapes?
It's like because there's this huge fight in like a civic association about like who's controlling the board. That's what started the whole fluke you thing. It's not about that. You know, it's about all these other things. It's one of those like classic stories that you can see like they end up killing each other on a hot summer night. Why? It's over like the board of Oak Beach Association.
Yeah, because someone cut down a tree and they weren't supposed to and it blew up. Exactly. And then it all snowballs into, well, that guy's a killer. And you're like, whoa. Exactly. Exactly. And then in the echo chamber and in the echo chamber of the media. He even redid it too, you know, looking at Fluke U. He was definitely a whack campaign that he went on. What's that Twilight Zone episode?
Oh, the monsters on Maple Street. It's totally that. You were the killer. You were the killer. That's what they were doing. Totally. To me, there are a few questions from that night that... leave the possibility open that something else happened. I think Shannon is often easy to focus on because there's more known, or at least there's more talked about. When you get into Asian male...
You're like, I don't know where to go with some of this, especially when SCPDS gives you nothing. You're like, well, let's focus on Shannon. And I think that's, that is often kind of the shiny thing that people can get distracted by. Yeah, you're absolutely right. She was a victim of circumstance, in my opinion. She was a sex worker who died in an area. She was identified and she had people who were looking for her.
Exactly. When it comes to Asian male, what do we have to go on? Aside for a second and tangent is that one thing that's still driving me crazy is that I know that there are clothes he was found in. They've said they're women's clothes. Why won't they release? or the blanket that the toddler was wrapped in. There's concrete, tangible things that could be released that could help identify these victims. Yeah. Yeah.
We all get that you have to withhold some evidence so you can rule out whack jobs who come along and say, hey, I'm Liz. And you're like, well, tell us about this. Now you're off. You're not him. But there are things that you could. release and there's talk that they do want to work with the public that was said in january in season two we're going to try to talk to them and say let us help we'll see how that goes i'm not holding my breath yeah yeah we said the same thing obviously
A lot of time has passed and there's been a lot more people talking, so maybe they will. We had all the web sleuths ready to action this if they gave us something. Well, speaking of web sleuths, you guys did a great job utilizing them and getting them on board. There are critics who don't care for web sleuths, especially a lot in law enforcement, and they have their faults for sure.
But you guys did a lot of work with them and they came up with some good stuff because they're just out there trying to help. One, they gave you some good leads on Asian male. Did anything ever come from that? Yeah, we don't think that individual is likely. to be Asian male. We now believe that Asian male may not be Asian. We've been in touch with another family trying to get them to submit DNA. I think we have to remember that.
These individuals who are found, whether the sex workers or what have you, they haven't had easy lives. Chances are the reason why they're here is not because they love sex work. It's because they've had abuse issues.
drug and alcohol dependency issues and so trying to go to like a family member and say oh can you give us your dna to match who made this other missing person like that's not necessarily something that they're interested in it opens up a lot of wounds rather than that enclosure well that's a great point and you saw that with jessica taylor who was by chance identified because of a tattoo and a dc cop who had seen it
But her family has not wanted to talk. And, you know, she was estranged and there's a lot of pain and a lot of history. They're like, why go there? Yeah. Since the series came out, as far as web sleuths. You guys have had such a close relationship with Tricia and that whole community. Has there been anything else that you guys can talk about that has come to light? Just the work that we did on Peaches. I think...
There is some very interesting stuff with peaches. I think that there's a lot more deep dives people can do with peaches. I think one of the web sleuths that we worked with... I'll call him Lindsay Lohan 6, just for the purposes of what we're doing. Very, very smart individual who started looking at some of the trans sex workers who were killed. around that time, more, let's say, in the Queens area. And I think if you look, you'll find an interesting pattern of trans workers who were killed.
Missing, yeah. So there's some other things that are coming up. I mean, the answers are there. Yeah, you had a lot of Queens connections that you had made, which was really interesting. Yeah, Queens is an interesting connection for sure.
And then, of course, obviously, there's the Bittroth issue. If you would, set that up a little bit, just so we know. We've talked about Bittroth a little bit, and we've talked to his family, we've talked to him, and we're getting into that more in season two. But if you can... just briefly set that up just a little bit so we know kind of what that's about. I think in terms of BitRoth, we were trying to rack our heads around why we didn't think it was BitRoth. I went down a deep dive on what flu.
over the weekend to re-familiarize myself. With BitRoth. With BitRoth. I remember there was a reason why we did not think BitRoth could have done it. But like a very concrete, legitimate reason. And I can't remember whether we had heard that his DNA profile didn't match some of the others. By the way, that brings up the question, does Suffolk County have LISCs? or one of them DNA. There are people who suggest that the release of the belt suggests such. Yeah, it's going to be hard. I think...
With the GB4, the Gilgo 4, Amber, who was the last victim that we know of, was still two plus months, almost three. along Ocean Parkway and it's how much does DNA last how long is it going to last there is a big question and we don't know because SCP doesn't talk about it but yeah I guess the question becomes why would they think that that belt was connected
unless there was DNA on the bell. Well, it was found nearby. But you and I both know that there are numerous... There's so much stuff buried in those... in those woods you know what I'm saying for them to like think that somehow that was connected there's so much stuff you know we were like we went two inches from where a body had been found and there was like a
propane canister like there was incredible stuff there in those in that fit you know so you know there's eight cigarettes there's bottles of beer like why wouldn't they think that that was connected That's a good point because I've been to the sites too, and there is so much stuff strewn around there. And every time you see something, you're like, oh, is that connected? What's up with that? But unless it was around a victim's neck.
Yeah. In the burlap. Yeah, that's my question. But Bitrock, I believe that there was some very strong piece of evidence that suggested Bitrock didn't do it other than just because certain victims, Tancredi. were found dumped, not staged, but dumped, heads bashed in. I think it was another reason outside of just that fact that the MOs looked different.
that we didn't think he could have done it. I think there was a time in which he might have been in jail or away that didn't match one of the GB4s, something to that effect that made us believe that it wasn't him. Or there was a DNA issue. I'm not quite sure. The police swore up and down it wasn't him. We believed it wasn't him. And then when he went up for...
sentencing, I think it was, or something like that, one of the ADAs were like, we don't even know, he could be List. And just for a little backstory here, so Bittroff was convicted of two sex workers' deaths in the 90s. He was connected by DNA that was left on the bodies, and his brother was a felon. And so they found it through his brother's DNA and then tracked it to him. And Spoda, at the beginning of the trial, said...
no, we don't see any connection to Lisk. And then at the end of the trial, as you said, the assistant district attorney is like, hey, it could be Lisk. I mean, but they just throw that in there basically to make sure that he gets convicted, that they get a win. So I think that's what happened. And then everybody heard that, and they're like, yeah, he could be Lisk. And then suddenly that took off in the echo chamber. It's all the other bodies. You know, there's body parts.
There's all these different countermeasures. They don't have their heads bastioned. They're all dismembered. There's no DNA on them. There's all these different things in terms of whether it's the body parts. or even the bodies that were found. There's just all these huge differences between that and the bodies that Bittroff left. The only problem is that Bittroff is from Manerville.
It's, again, inconsistent. It's like, how could this guy from Manorville not be the killer? He was killing sex workers. He was leaving their bodies. Well, okay. Yes, he was killing sex workers. Violence against sex workers has increased 70% in the last 20 years, so that's not statistically that crazy. Again, how is there going to be two serial killers in eastern Long Island?
statistically not that crazy you just got to do the deep dives into really understanding why yeah and we have talked to his family and to him off the record there's a lot of talk that Allegedly, there was a lot of different DNA on the bodies. And Bittroff does admit that he was engaged at the time and he did sleep with some sex workers, but he's not a killer. And his wife stands beside him, which it seems like you'd want to bail.
But it is one of those that will be interesting to look at to see what comes from it. Yeah, it is very interesting. And there's even a whole bunch more like, oh my God, you know how people thought that Bitrock... Rita Tancredi was connected to Melissa. We did that. They weren't really connected. It's hard to track all the articles that say stuff because people want a story and it's like, well, what's real? What's not? What was said? What wasn't said?
Yeah. That was the ankle tattoo. The ankle tattoo. Exactly. That was the ankle tattoo. Right. Somebody said that there was an ankle tattoo. Fitzpatrick? Fitzpatrick, I think. Right. Said that there was an ankle tattoo on Jane Doe 6. But really that was only because... her bat's ankle was missing. So they assumed there was a tattoo, but it was actually quoted as a tattoo. A tattoo. When it's like, oh, maybe the reason her...
leg was cut at the ankle when you hide a tattoo. You know, and here we are like, why don't you show us the tattoo? Show us the picture of the tattoo. They're like, there is no tattoo. The foot was found below the ankle. There's also some cub reporters who were on back in the day. And we're like scanning every article as if there's like the secrets are locked in there. It's like, it's not a movie. Yeah. It's not Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. I would love it to be, but it's not. Yeah.
Yeah. And that is a great example of how things kind of spin up and you track it back to the source. And it's hard to know where the story starts and where it ends. And is it a real story to begin with? The other part of it is... The Long Island police are actively engaging with the public. They can help control the narrative in a good way, not a bad way. Like they could stop. Like what we noticed was that when they stopped.
talking people started spinning that's so true when you don't have real facts people want to fill the void absolutely let me ask you something about the killing season you know you had the whole wiki thing with that corrections officer and he was called out by someone at scpd yes which is classic for this whole story where it starts and how do you pin it down Did anything come from that? Did you ever find out who in SCPD was behind it? I know that's a big question, but... No, I mean...
First of all, from what I heard, police officers always have a slightly antagonistic relationship with corrections officers, much like police officers always have an antagonistic relationship with firemen. Also, you have a whole bunch of different issues. I think at the time, people were trying to figure out who was going to control the highway police. There were a whole bunch of issues. So I take that as sniping within a department.
But at the same time, I am not surprised whenever I hear that a serial killer happened to be a former corrections officer. Yeah. And then along those lines, you had that, I think I can fairly say oddball in Massapequa, who was... Totally into serial killing. And told other serial killers that he was Lisk. To get them to talk and to send him stuff is what his story is. Yes, that's right.
And he's in Massapequa. He's literally living blocks from where women go missing, from where it's very easy you can dump body parts in the water. Yeah. And he has a whole bunch of receipts for samurai swords. And we found out that the police visited him like eight different times. Yeah.
So it seems that if he was really, other than being kind of creepy, if there was something there, it probably would have come out. Yes. Yes, absolutely. But we are not the only... journalists to get kind of like wait a second you know like there's another one too even the police like I am sorry but there is a line that you cross and want to live out your fantasies I mean he was like He was textbook, if you were to look up.
you know, what a serial killer's apartment looks like. Oh, boy. Or he was role-playing his own apartment. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, he was role-playing his own apartment. It was almost too, it was like production design. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a production designer had gone in there. and put up newspapers from killers and like it was so to a T. Yeah. And so you kind of buy the story that he is oddly fascinated with it all and it's his way to kind of keep from acting out, if you will.
He kind of said that. Yeah, yeah. Well, and good for him. Whatever it takes, I guess. Yeah, whatever it takes. Well, thanks, Rachel. Thanks, Josh. Thank you. I'll be in touch. All right, take care. You bet. Talk to you later, guys. Thanks. Bye. Bye. We'd like to thank Josh and Rachel for taking the time to talk to us. And we'd encourage you, if you haven't done so already, to go watch their series, The Killing Season.
And we're grateful for you, the listener, for joining us on this special episode. And we'd appreciate you taking a couple of minutes to rate, review, and tell a friend or two. Stay subscribed and you'll receive more bonus content while we work to get season two out. For more information, including exclusive photos and videos, go to liskpodcast.com. If you suspect human trafficking, contact the National Human Trafficking Hotline by texting HELP to 233733.