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powered by shopify sign up for a one pound per month trial period at shopify.co.uk slash glass box all lowercase. Go to shopify.co.uk slash glassbox to take your business to the next level today. shopify.co.uk slash glassbox. Welcome to the I Can't Sleep Podcast with Benjamin Boster. If you're tired of sleepless nights, you'll love the I Can't Sleep Podcast.
I help quiet your mind by reading random articles from across the web to bore you to sleep with my soothing voice. Each episode provides enough interesting content to hold your attention And then your mind lets you drift off. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. That's I Can't Sleep with Benjamin Boster. We here at Mopac Audio, we're thankful for your support of the podcast. By keeping the conversation fresh and by releasing new episodes,
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Previously on LISC, Long Island Serial Killer. I'm pretty convinced that the people who each know a lot more than what they're letting on about what happened to Shannon that night. We are here today to announce that all four women whose remains were discovered in Gilgo Beach last month have been positively identified. I was at my cousin's house.
All of a sudden my phone rings and it says Melissa and you know I answer the phone and there's a man on the other line. I'm thinking maybe somebody found her phone or found her, knows where she is and they just started prodding and you know. wasn't anybody that cared about her or knew her. So I'm going to start off with a quote from Dennis Nielsen, who's a serial killer in England.
after the whole Science of the Lambs phenomena came out. And he said, they don't understand. Those guys are powerful. I'm not powerful. It's our powerlessness that drives us to do these actions. And I don't have the quote perfect, but you get the idea that someone who is as accomplished and has as rich a life, they don't often have any reason or compulsion.
to go out and do what serial killers do. Most serial killers are boring. That's criminologist Dr. Kim Rossmo, who you've heard from in previous episodes. But in this one... where we're covering serial killers in general and how all that relates to this case, we thought that quote and Dr. Rosmo's insight was a good starting point. Just to remind us, and Lisk should he be listening,
that he's a boring, soulless piece of shit. Now, usually, we don't weigh in with too much opinion, but we thought most of you would agree, and if not, and we're not the podcast for you, fair enough. But back to Dr. Rossma with more on serial killers. They're not these engaging rich people. And if they're a psychopath, they're particularly boring. Because psychopaths can't engage.
They can put on a show. They can act. But there's no empathy. What makes someone interesting to you? Well, there's some empathy there. There's a back and forth, an interchange. Psychopaths, when you look at their histories, they can't maintain that type of relationship with anybody. Now going back to his mention of the film Silence of the Lambs, with a killer who was brilliant, cultured, and sadistic.
It's a terrifying, interesting portrayal, but far from factual when it comes to actual serial killers. The reason I think the media gets this wrong so often is that serial killers can avoid detection. They don't get arrested. Some never get arrested. But that's not because they're brilliant. It's just because that nexus between offender and victim is gone. And then it just comes down to luck. Now, before we get into more about serial killers.
The esteemed Dr. Rossmo is long overdue for a proper introduction. I spent 21, 22 years with the Vancouver Police Department in British Columbia, Canada, the last five of which I was the detective inspector in charge of our geographic profiling section. It was the first such...
section that was set up in the world. And we supplied investigative assistance in regards to geographic profiling to police agencies around the world. So Scotland Yard, the FBI, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the German BKA. Geographic profiling was actually some methodology used in serial crime investigations, which I developed during the course of my PhD. Given that geographic profiling might be what solves this case...
Here's Dr. Rosma with more details on what it is and how it works. Geographic profiling is a criminal investigative methodology that analyzes the locations of a connected series of crimes, like most serial murders. The police end up generating hundreds, thousands, even tens of thousands of suspects. So these are poor quality suspects, for example, every parolee for a particular type of crime in the last two years.
It creates an information overload problem. Research has shown that more often than not, the offender is in the list of police suspects, but it's a classic needle in the haystack problem. Where do you start? Well, one of the advantages of geography is that so many of our records, been estimated about 85%, contain an address. And using a particular computer model determines the most...
probable location where the offender is based, usually where they live. And then that can be used to manage information and prioritize suspects. So geography is a very useful tool for prioritizing things. So that's what geographic profiling is. It's really a search technique. So how does one come up with an investigative tool that would help solve serial rape and murder that ends up being taught the world over?
It was an FBI law enforcement bulletin article on their new VICAP program, Violent Crime Apprehension Program. And it was a map of the locations of this one offender where they had murdered people. And I'm looking at the map and I'm thinking. Maybe I could turn that model around, invert it, and rather than figure out where the crimes are going to happen, if I already know where the crimes have happened, what could I say about where they were based?
And so that became the focus of my doctoral research. Dissertation title was Geographic Profiling, Target Patterns of Serial Murderers. And that condensed version makes it seem easy. But from there, the soon-to-be Dr. Rossmo... had to devote a massive amount of time into building the program. But before I finished, people began to hear about it and my supervisors would be talking about it and police leaders were talking about it. So I started to get requests for help.
from the FBI and from the RCMP initially. RCMP, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, their federal and national police service. And so I began working on these other cases. So finally, when it reached the point when it was all done, the Vancouver Police Department set up a geographic profiling section. And for five years, I just worked on these cases, many of them serial murder cases from literally all over the world.
What's even more incredible, his hard work has gone far beyond the world of law enforcement. In addition to what we've done... To support police investigations has also been applied by the military and intelligence communities for counterinsurgency and counterterrorism. And then collaborating with some people from England, particularly Queen Mary University, applied it to foraging theory and behavior of animals, great white shark predation patterns, bees, bats.
And most interestingly, given the current situation, applied the technique for determining the origins of outbreaks of diseases, determining where a cholera outbreak occurred in terms of contaminated water sources. and malaria in Cairo, Egypt, looking at mosquito breeding pools. We're hoping to apply it to what's called EIDs, emerging infectious diseases, such as COVID-19, and working.
with the Naval Health Research Center in San Diego. To understand geographic profiling on the practical level, here's a real-world example that helps show how it could be the key to unlocking LISC. One of the cases that got a lot of attention was called the Lafayette. sell-side rapist in Louisiana. And they had an unsolved serial rape case. The detective who called me, sent me some information. I looked at it and I said, yeah, I think this could work. So they ended up flying me down there.
part of Cajun territory. What I was working with was 14 rape locations. A lot of areas on the south side of Lafayette. richer communities, apartment buildings, neighborhoods that were a little more run down. And that suggested to me the offender had a well-developed mental map, like maybe he was a taxi cab driver or delivered items. So I did the analysis working with the local detective there, Mac Galleon. And Mac had about a thousand suspects and he used the profile to...
prioritize people for DNA testing that hadn't been through. But nothing was coming back. With standard methods and that size of a police force, it would take years to wade through the thousand plus suspects. However...
Geographic profiling helped narrow that scope. A new suspect came to their attention, and Mac looked at where the guy lived, and it was so, so fit. But then Mac... who's a very good detective said well just a second the profile is not based on where the guy's living today it's based on where he would have been living at the time of the rapes so he was able to check the personnel files of where this person worked and during the time of the rapes he was right
like in the top half square mile of things. It's worth pointing out that amazing tools are often only as good as those using them, meaning cases are still dependent on competent detectives. So they managed to get a discarded cigarette, but submitted it to the lab and the DNA matched. The sheriff sergeants in the surrounding parish or county, he...
was plugged into aspects of the investigation. He changed his glasses and hairstyle and went to the gym to lose weight. He was even engaged to be married to a rape crisis worker at the time of his arrest. So that individual, Randy Como, I think got life imprisonment and Mac was able to solve the case and it was a big plus for geographic profiling.
people say well what solved the case well dna solved the case but also what really solved the case was a detective who wouldn't give up and to the degree the geographic profiling helped find the offender and prioritized their information, it played a very helpful role. But I always like to say we don't solve crimes with a geoprofile. You can only do that with a witness, confession, or physical evidence.
Our goal is to try to get you there sooner rather than later. That's a specific and amazing case that hopefully illustrates geographic profiling. Have you ever heard about the woman who woke up in a cold sweat like she just had a nightmare? but she knew what she saw while she was sleeping was more than just a bad dream. Or the violinist who disappeared from the orchestra pit in front of thousands of people in the audience.
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But now, let's return to the bigger questions and misconceptions as it pertains to Lisk and serial killers in general. We know what a serial killer is, but how do they end up that way? And what's driving them? There's all sorts of theories about... the cause of serial murder whatever explanation exists has to produce a very rare outcome because serial murder is not common thankfully serial killers are rare
But how one is fully formed is a fascinating field of study. It often revolves around the question of nature versus nurture. Are they born this way? Nature. Or are they created? Nurture. Most of what's understood about serial killers comes from the research done on psychopathy and psychopaths. He is the person that developed the psychopathy checklist, the PCLR, and is one of the...
fathers of what's called antisocial personality disorder or psychopathy. And I was fortunate to take one of my doctoral classes from him because he was just over at the University of British Columbia. The research done by Bob Hare and others points to some sort of genetic influence on becoming a psychopath, but it's also clear there are upbringing, family, environmental issues as well.
Which sort of makes sense because this is rare and you probably need, I'm sure you've heard of the term the Swiss cheese effect for airplane accidents, where a bunch of things just have to line up and the holes in the Swiss cheese match before a disaster like that happens. And probably it's the same thing.
with serial killers. How many serial killers have been out there that have been caught after the first murder? And we never recognized them as a serial killer. You know, probably many. We weren't aware of the Swiss cheese effect. but it seems to be the same idea as the perfect storm and given the subject matter perhaps a better fit basically it's the chance mixture of nature and nurture that creates a deadly outcome
Again, here's Dr. Jackie Sabir, who heads up the UK's Bedfordshire Major Crimes Unit. I mean, I think the nature versus nurture sort of argument is so interesting. And I've been really lucky. I did my master's in twin studies. and nature and nurture. And it's fascinating when you can have twins separated at birth that then will go on to have such similar lives. So, you know, is it natural? Is it not? I think everyone is different.
That's what my experience has been like. You have got some people that have been given every opportunity in life and are just simply bad. They have no empathy with anybody. But fortunately, because of perhaps some semblance of a stable upbringing. They don't end up delving into serial murder. But there are others. They are very powerful, very angry people. And I think that, you know, that is their natural default setting. You have other people through circumstance.
through either illness, mental illness, things that happen with them in their lives, injuries that just can't help themselves or make some really, really bad mistakes. So I don't think it's the nature versus nurture. You can either... settle one side of the fence or the other. I think it's really really individual.
I've met people, you know, I've sat in the back of a car when someone's been arrested and he was only 15 and he shot this woman for 200 pounds. You know, he wanted to be part of a gang. And there was just no empathy. There was no nothing. And yet his two brothers had been convicted as murder too. So you think there's got to be something biological there. But I don't know. It's really difficult to tell. I think everyone has their own story for how they end up where they do.
And by all means, this is not an attempt to empathize with or rationalize the actions of serial killers. It's really important to remember there's also people that come up with very dysfunctional families that lead really great, meaningful lives as well. But it's more an attempt to understand the rarity. Those who are often born with faulty wiring and into horrific upbringing, that again creates that deadly perfect storm. And there's many things at play.
There's been a lot of research in psychology done in psychopathy, where people lack the inhibitions or the ability to not indulge themselves. Dr. Hare's psychopathy checklist, referenced earlier by Dr. Rosmo, is a 0 to 40 point scale and its scoring is based on 20 traits or attributes. It's important to know that everyone would be on it. Gratefully, however, most score in the single digits.
Studies show the average for those in prison is a 22. But it's those who land a score above 30 that can be extremely dangerous. So you can start assessing people. You need a good record, which is something typically available in a prison for the inmates. And it's such things as measures of grandiosity and manipulation, criminal behavior.
personality and some of it is the actual things you've done most of the invaders we're talking to become serial killers it looks for indicators of lack of remorse this superficiality and It's a way to determine if someone seems to lack the conscious, the empathy, the concern for others. The original book on this topic written by Kleckli is
entitled The Mask of Sanity. And he talks about people looking in a mirror and what do they see and do they relate to it? They talk about psychopaths acting because they really don't know how to behave. It's not ingrained in them. Studies show that a great deal of those high-scoring psychopaths, above 30 on the PCLR, don't have or connect to human emotions. However, to get them through life, they've learned to mimic them. For reference,
It's a concept that is explored in the TV series Dexter. He's a serial killer whose internal monologue that viewers sometimes hear often revolves around his struggle to summon the appropriate emotion for a certain situation or human interaction. One of the things in the class I took from Bob Hare that I found fascinating is he had recorded a number of clips from TV shows where they're interviewing people that are psychopaths.
One of them was a mother who had been convicted of... murdering her child to gain the acceptance of her lover who didn't want children and she's talking about the death of her child and she's joking around and it's just like soda whack from anyone normal it's been estimated that
Only a couple percent of the overall population are true psychopaths, but you will see behavior in this. And if you pay attention to them, there's even things now on the internet about warning signs about people that you might meet and date.
If they do this, you know, some level of indication, though, as you've already pointed out, there's a spectrum here and only a few people are at the far end of the spectrum. It's worth mentioning that psychopaths such as serial killers are naturally hard to study. First, because they are rare. But also, one of their traits is not just lying, but lying for no apparent reason or benefit. All that along with their propensity for manipulation.
makes for difficult and sometimes questionable research. Still, this tells us a bit about the inner workings, or lack thereof, of LISC. And just maybe it's something a family member or partner of theirs will come to recognize. So overall, when it comes to serial killers, there are things we probably don't know. However, there are things we often simply get wrong. Some of the early ideas that were put forward that are not...
supported anymore. One of those is serial killers would never stop unless they're caught, killed, incarcerated, died. This idea comes up often that someone like Lisk can't or won't stop killing ever. That's not true. We know that, for example, BTK, Dennis Rader, stopped for years. And we know that Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer, also stopped. This is very rare and unique set of factors. Maybe that burns out or they're satisfied with it.
Their circumstances and their opportunities might change because of where they live, the family situation, work demands. I think some of them almost come close to getting caught and then they decide to cool it. and just take it easy for a while. In other cases, I think there have been strong resistance from a victim, and they realized that they might have ended up on the wrong end of this equation and decide just to take it easier for a while. Every town has a dark side.
This is Andrew Fitzgerald from the Everytown Podcast, where every single week we dive into insane and mysterious true crime stories, most of which you've never heard of. Stories like the bizarre disappearance of Tyler Davis in Columbus, Ohio. A 29-year-old father trying to find his way back to his hotel when he disappeared and was never heard from again. And Elizabeth Shove from Lugov, South Carolina, who was abducted from her driveway by a madman.
and take into his underground bunker in the woods. We give you all the details you're interested in hearing about without any fluff or fillers, because ain't nobody got time for that. We cover everything from psychopaths to poltergeists. So go check out the Everytown podcast because Everytown, no matter how nice it may seem, has a dark side. Hey, do you have trouble sleeping?
Then maybe you should check out The Sleepy Podcast. It's a show where I read old books in the public domain to help you get to sleep. It was the best of times. It was the worst of times. it was the age of classic stories like a tale of two cities pride and prejudice winnie the pooh stories that are great for adults and kids alike
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This is Andrew from the Scary Mysteries podcast, where every single week we dive into insane and creepy true crime compilations on Mondays, and on Wednesdays we have our twisted news episodes. where we get you up to speed on the most terrifying and strange news stories currently happening all around the world. We're covering the topics you want to hear about. Missing persons, killers, UFOs, and more.
Best of all, we don't waste your time with any fluff or fillers, just stray to the true crime details. So go check out the Scary Mysteries podcast, and I'll see you there. Whereas it's possible that Lisk has stopped killing because of his death or incarceration, or even if he hasn't, he's possibly found a new location for the bodies. The point is that it's a myth that serial killers must keep killing.
Now, we hope it's that LISC has given up or is on pause or perhaps locked away for something else. However, there's another myth affecting the LISC case even more. It's the idea that serial killers don't change their MOs, their modus operandi. Basically, their way of doing things. So MO or Modus Operandi is method of operation, way of doing things. And there's different ways of defining it.
The definition we use is we take a look at the offender's actions before the crime, during the crime and after the crime. And because of this myth that serial killers don't change their MO, some believe that must mean two or three serial killers are responsible for the victims on Ocean Parkway. This is because of the varying MOs when it comes to how the bodies were handled.
cause of death or how they were dismembered or not dismembered. But MO is not something that's solid. First of all, offenders learn from their experiences. They also mature as they get older. When they mature, they may also start to lose some of their physical abilities.
especially if they've been going on for some time period. So what was perfectly reasonable for a 25 year old to do may not be so reasonable for a 45 year old to do. And, you know, that's one of the things that's been used to explain some of the modifications. in the behavior of the Golden State serial killer because he operated for quite a while. And according to former police commissioner Dormer, that's what the FBI said about Lisk early on when they were invited into the case.
Maybe it was too much trouble to dismember them because the first bodies weren't found. Remember, this guy, we believe, was active in Suffolk County for about 14 years, 14, 15 years. Here's Dormer's former chief of detectives, Dominic Verone, explaining more specifically as to why Lisk most likely changed MOs. You have to consider the parts in Manneville.
were quickly discovered within I think a couple of weeks. And forensic examiners are able to restore the tattoo and allows law enforcement to identify the body. The serial killer learns that dismemberment is not going to really hamper investigation. And he also learned that Maneville perhaps was not the best place to dump a body, but the parts that he dumped.
near Gilgo Beach was still not discovered. There are theories you might have come across. That perhaps there were two serial killers working as a team and that accounts for the different MOs. Or that after the Gilgo Four were found... During that three-month break in the search, another serial killer spread his victim's remains along Ocean Parkway. The reason being, the serial killer wanted attention from, or wanted to pin his victims on, whoever killed the Gilgal 4.
Now, like so much of the List case, it can't be proven definitively that these things didn't happen. But all signs, and all experts we've spoken with, point to a killer's changing MO. Here's our detective from the area. who's worked on these sorts of cases. My belief is that Lisk is one killer. I just think that the, I hate to use this term, but dumping ground is such a remote location.
and all the bodies were typically pretty close to each other, it would just be too big of a coincidence for there to be multiple killers using the same dumping ground in Long Island around the same time. What are the odds? When it comes to serial killers and LISC, There's another term that gets confused with MO. Here's Dr. Rossmo to clarify this for us. So signature is something very specific.
A term the FBI came up with, they say it's usually something that's not necessary to do the crime, which moves it from modest operandi. It's usually very unique. which is great from an investigative perspective because it'll allow you to link crimes together with a high degree of certainty. The problem with signatures is actually pretty rare. It doesn't show up a lot.
And although rare, you wouldn't guess that when it comes to movies or TV series about serial killers, because his signature makes for an intriguing story point. So signature is great. And there's an interesting example of a serial killer in Spain. or Italy that left playing cards at the scene of his crimes. That almost sounds like Hollywood, but it happened in real life and that made it very easy to link them together.
The FBI have also, when they first proposed it, said it was like sexual fantasy based, which might be for some crimes, but there's also signature in other crimes. For example, the ATF found... literally signatures in how bomb makers construct their bombs. In fact, FP were initials inscribed into the bomb components of the New York Mad Bomber.
We now know that F.P. stood for fair play because he thought Con Edison, the power company he worked for, had not treated him fairly. But that was signature and allowed those crimes to be linked together with a high degree of certainty. This is former Chief of Detectives Verone talking about another misconception that comes up with so many of these cases, but especially with Lisk. Just very coincidental that her body, her remains...
and she was missing from an area where the serial killer chose to dump bodies. It's less astounding when you realize the extent of this online... sex trade and prostitution and how easy it is for John to go online and hook up with someone. If you spent more than a few minutes on any LISC-related discussion board, you've probably come across a comment like,
Shannon must be part of Lisk because there's no such thing as a coincidence. Or, a Lisk victim knew a family member from a victim in another case. It can't be a coincidence. The cases must be connected. I don't believe that there aren't any coincidences. Coincidences and just strange things happen all of the time. Again, this is criminologist and UK detective Dr. Jackie Sabir. I can think of investigations where I have been.
looking at witnesses and people that might have been at the scene and people that might be on bail for a murder just happen to be in the scene or just happen to be there at the time but have got nothing to do with what you're looking at and they're a red herring.
And we think that's why it's important to bring up. Just because something makes a good catchphrase, like there's no such thing as a coincidence, doesn't make it true. Everything should still be driven by evidence and logic. Coincidences do happen. There's very few truisms, and to just dismiss something as being improbable, therefore impossible, is a logical error.
So what kind of analysis is needed to solve a case like LISC? If I were running the investigation, I would treat every body like a separate investigation. So I believe you have 11 different investigations. you can kind of work on. And if you're of the belief that there is one killer, all you need to do is solve one. In the next episode, one of the bigger focal points will be the question, is this case solvable? And if it is,
What element of the investigation is most likely to get that result? If you're of the belief that there's one killer, solving one case can definitely move the bull downfield. There's stuff you could do post arrest. You know, you could write for stuff like Apple iClouds and you could look at credit card statements and Google search history and stuff like that. And you're not necessarily going to be able to charge that suspect with the additional homicides.
I think as a department, if you feel comfortable that that individual is good for them, then at least you know that there's not a murder roaming the streets out there and that society is not at risk. Coming up on LISC. We know that this guy is organized. He's very careful. He plans it. He carries out the murders very carefully. He disposes of the bodies very carefully. He takes very little risk.
He takes some because he obviously transports the bodies or remains, whatever remains he has, to the dumping ground. So he has them in his vehicle as he's driving through Suffolk County. This episode was written, produced, and recorded by myself, Chris Moss, Jonathan Beal, and Shannon McGarvey. Editing and musical composition by Blake Maples. Executive producers are Jonathan Nowzarden, Jonathan Beal, and me, Chris Moss. Brought to you by Mopac Audio.