Tracy and Emily are smart , lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah , the plot which they overthink , hi , hi .
And hi to all of you . I'm here with my sister , emily Guy-Burkin she does not use a hyphen and I'm here with my sister , emily Guy-Burkin , and I'm here with my sister , Tracy Guy-Dekker , who does use a hyphen . And together we are doing Lightbringers , which is a show in which we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show .
And , yes , we are overthinking it so much , totally overthinking it . So the point where we have a list today , yeah , these two episodes . So today we are chock full . It's like so much I don't want to forget anything . So today we're talking about two 11 and 212 , two 11 and 212 .
Stewardess interruptus and love handles and going to resist the urge to go straight to the sexy scene and talk about Stewardess interruptus first , 212 .
So in this episode , like it starts directly where the last episode ended and they're having a moment which they call a moment , but it gets interrupted by a stewardess Hence the title and then it forces Chloe to rethink the direction she was going with Lucifer and it forces Lucifer to really think about , like , who he is and whether or not he's boyfriend material ,
as he puts it Right , okay , so I'm going to start with that question . Actually , is he boyfriend material , which Lucifer poses to his brother , amenadiel ?
And when you and I talked about it offline , like I was approaching this as like was this a manipulative move on Amenadiel's part , because we just saw Amenadiel and the goddess talking about how they want to push Chloe and Lucifer together Since Chloe , since they've realized that Chloe is a miracle , chloe's birth was a miracle .
And then we see Amenadiel say to Lucifer you don't ever lie so and I've always underestimated you . So ask yourself if your boyfriend material , ask yourself if this is right . And you had a very generous read of that , which I like .
You had suggested that that was his way of getting him to kind of tap into his ego , because his ego would say like oh , yeah , of course , and I actually like there . There may be some of that in there because he also says you underestimate yourself . So that is the one thing that may not quite fit with my theory .
But my theory is that Amenadiel makes it very clear to the goddess that he is uncomfortable with manipulating Lucifer , and she said that's because you lied to him . He respects the truth , and so I took the way that he responded as a way of trying to get what he wants .
I mean , I'm not going to say he's not trying to manipulate , but using the truth in a way so that he does not feel like he is doing something he is uncomfortable with , which is like lying to Lucifer and say because if the goddess were there , she'd probably say like oh , of course you are , even though like , because this is not the sort of thing that she
thinks of when you say lie to him . Like you know , in my boyfriend material , she'd be like oh well , of course , because you're my wonderful son and you know love , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah , so . So by turning it to what do you think you don't lie to yourself , so ask yourself if you are worthy of Chloe is a I think it really good advice .
Actually , you know just if that , if that was an actual conversation rather than just you know something that is partially a menadial trying to manipulate him , and also it gives a menadial this sense that he's able to use what's real to Help Lucifer in whatever way it's it's going to be most helpful .
Yeah so I think your read Suggest it was a genuine connection between yes and not and not a manipulative move on a many deals part , which I appreciate . I like that , I , yeah , I want to like a minute deal and I think he does become more and more sympathetic throughout the series .
Okay , I want to talk about some of the writing like so there are a couple of things that we see , you know , in our overthinking it , where our writers like the joke , lucifer says I will not do X and such or this thing will not happen , and then it immediately happens , like Immediately , with like the next beat .
Yeah , so we saw that a couple episodes ago where he says I promise his feet will stay on the floor and then immediately the person he was talking about like lands on a car behind them . Yes , and it happens in this episode where he says I promise I will never see Jana , I will never lay eyes on her again .
I think is the exact phrase and then they immediately come upon like her dead bodies , the , the sheet is taken back from her and then , to be fair to them , he does say oh , johnna , always with the tragic timing , yeah yeah , true , yeah , I In rewatch , like first time , I didn't go like , oh , we did that joke before , but as we're overthinking it , I was
like , oh okay , so that's , that's a thing , so just just that .
We did mention this offline . But just speaking of repeated jokes , the scene and I think it's in love handles yes , in the next I think it is in the next one where Lucifer and the goddess are talking as Charlotte Richards and and Dan comes by and Charlotte Richards says detective and he goes counselor .
Lucifer goes douche . Dance is dick .
Yeah , it is such an old joke . It's an old joke and it gets me every time and I think I mentioned what I really want is a t-shirt . You know , those t-shirts that say you know .
So , and so and so and so yeah , I feel like Detective and counselor and douche and dick no .
No , like I feel like it would . If people saw , saw me out in public in that and they understood the reference , it would be like yeah , but like 95% of them would not get the wrap .
This one would be like barfide is happening , no .
Anyway . So maybe on a mug or a book bark , so it's not quite so in your face . So anyway , yes , there are recycled jokes . When you notice , and if you , if you rewatch shows , you will notice the kinds of jokes that some writers really seem to like . So , yes , I get you there .
Can we talk about the fact that this episode is the first time that the show acknowledges that Lucifer has male lovers , one-on-one ?
like right outside of the context of a like a threesome or or more or some , yeah , yeah , and the show acknowledges it and they and provides it with Like . Chloe is the stand-in for us as that sort of , as that moment of surprise , when she's like well , I know , this isn't about you anymore , because there's no way you slept with this guy , right .
And he's like oh , that's where you're wrong . Oh , right , so fit like and . And Chloe's face like , oh , my goodness , she just shocked , right , like . And it's not even and , as they say in the dialogue , it's not because she thinks he shouldn't , can't , be bisexual , but it just surprised her , right , well , it's , it's , he's .
It means that he's now the only connection that the two dead people yeah , well , and it's interesting also that she thinks of him as something specific , so she thinks of him as a womanizer and so , and that's why this is like it's such a shock to her .
And it's not that she necessarily has any issue with , with the fact that he's bisexual or homosexuality or anything like that . It's just that , like I thought you were X and it turns out your X plus Y plus Z , right , I didn't realize . Well , I'm gonna rearrange some furniture in my brain for a little bit .
Mm-hmm , yeah , speaking of rearranging brain furniture doing this , rewatch that that scene leads to the next of the interviews of the 96 .
Need a larger . You need a larger notebook , exactly .
So we see this interview and this montage , like all of these women and one man sort of saying like how amazing the sex was the best night of my life , the best night of my life , the best night of my life .
We hear it over and over again and it's like sort of preening peacock in the beginning , right , and it's to the point that it's even I think this is a little Mast masturbatory .
Yeah Well , I was thinking , how would you say it in an American accent ? Mast masturbatory , masturbatory , yeah yeah .
Yeah , anyway , apparently say masturbatory , anyway , yes . And then we see them all saying , but there's no way I would kill for him , you know , like it was meaningless , it was just sex and that worked in that scene , you know .
And then Dan , sort of , you see Dan , almost , not almost Dan , feeling sorry for him , yeah , but in reality if this weren't a TV show , it like , if it was just a series of interviews , it would be . You know , it was great sex , but it didn't mean anything . It was great sex , it didn't mean anything , it was great sex .
It wouldn't be like it was great , it was great . It was great , it didn't mean anything . It didn't mean anything , it didn't mean anything Like . And so the way that it gets chopped up for the montage , obviously it , you know , has an emotional punch which the writers wanted , which they couldn't get if it was more chronological .
Yeah , you know , I will say that the the cumulative effect of it didn't mean anything . So by the time they get to the last woman , the last person lover that they're interviewing , I could see the cumulative effect of like , whoa , this is wow of that .
The problem is , I guess , maybe in the very first one , the like the first couple , three , I could see him responding like you know , but there's no room for the cumulative effect of it , of the positive side of it . Yeah , so , but you know that's , that's part of storytelling . You like you'd have to take these shortcuts to to make them work .
Yeah , for sure . And it either doesn't or pretends not to understand what Dan is talking about . And then Lucifer later talks about Charlotte Richards and Dan genuinely doesn't understand what he's talking about and has that great line . Do you know that ?
that really weird stuff , man . That was ad-libbed by Kevin Alhandro , was it ? Yeah , it was perfect . It really was the last thing I needed is a step , Dan you said some really weird things man . So yeah , I mean like that's just perfect line , it's pretty good .
It was interesting when they were going through the montage of lovers the first time I watched it and they were saying is there like anyone who would want to hurt someone ? And they're like , oh , there was that woman like yes , eyes , and I assumed it was going to be the goddess the first time I watched it .
Interesting , interesting , interesting , because I was just like who else would it be Like ? It didn't occur to me that he'd be introducing another character , but instead they introduced the character who we all kind of are .
Yeah , yeah , I took a price . Yeah , I told someone recently we were talking about like what fictional character we are and I was like I'm kind of like Dr Linda . But honestly , I'm not Dr Linda , I'm Stokey Price . I even .
I think that the full size , like life size , cut out that she has on the wall behind her not the wall of photos with the strings and stuff , but on the another wall .
She's got a life size cardboard cut out .
Yeah , I think it might be the same one that's in my laundry room , which , full disclosure , was a gift to me . I did not purchase it myself , but I do have it tacked up to the wall in my laundry room . So I'm the only one who uses my laundry room , so it's for me .
So I have this , this plan . I'm going to be going out on a book tour with my co-author . He's doing 40 cities . I'm only doing 12 . I say only because that sounds like not that many compared to 40 , but whatever .
So , because I can't be on the full tour , I got a cardboard cut out of myself and sent it to him to take on boards the tour that I can't come on , and I'm intending on bringing it with me to Baltimore when I come to Baltimore for our tour and so that I can like push it up against your full size cardboard cut out .
Use your cardboard , cut it against the top and make kissy noises Because and like , and the thing is , that's a total , that's a total sucky price .
That's a sucky move , yeah .
I mean she we have talked about Ellis's chest hair and landscaping and not , and she also noticed that there is no different .
Chest her options .
Yes , and the way she said like Lucifer is like porn and stuff cross pizza and my hello kitty blanket all rolled into one . Like I don't have a hello kitty blanket , but I feel you , I feel you , girl , it's like my comfy pillow , like it's like comfort and porn and good pizza all rolled into one . Yeah , I'm with you , girl .
Yeah yeah , so like it wouldn't be stuffed crust pizza for me , but it would .
There's like a comfort food , yeah , like like really fresh sushi , or you know like , yeah , some , some , lots of all soup really amazing comfort food or like yeah yeah , oh , or macaroni and cheese . Hey , that's appropriate , because that's what the goddess tried to make cheesy noodles . Oh , you're right , good point .
I wasn't even thinking about that . I was just thinking about do you remember how much you love macaroni and cheese so much when you're a teenager ?
You probably still do well , I . It's one of the like four foods my daughter will eat , and so Fair totally fair .
So , oh , I can recall when you were I think you were 16 and I was 13 and you were driving in the Honda Civic and we we'd gotten some food and there was a thing of macaroni cheese and it was .
It was just hot like perfect and you were like I really want it well top , but I'm driving and you were driving a stick shift , oh , like there was no possible way . So I'm like I'm feeding Really hard not to drop any because you know if it gets in between the console in the sea You'll never see it again .
I do not remember that at all , but it's Totally sounds like .
I have no memory of where we were going , but I have a very vivid memory of feeding you the mac and cheese , oh yeah , so so that's why I was thinking macaroni and cheese , because it is a comfort food that you need it so badly that you have your little sister feed it to you while you're driving .
Yeah , I was gonna say like why couldn't we just pull over ? But you obviously don't remember where I don't remember .
So this is what we've been building to for all the way to the very end of this episode , with the beach scene , which I have seen way more times than I have seen this the beach scene where she finds him on the beach because she tracks to phones GPS , which side note what repeat EP .
Okay , they just had to explain how she would find him yeah , and I like I get that , but there you are would have been fine .
And you can all over for you , look at all over for you . Yeah , so she finds him on the beach and then he explains why he's not good enough for her and , in so doing , like completely endears himself to her and it's just , oh , it's so sweet , it's so sweet and like he names things about her that show that he's really paying attention .
Yeah , yeah , you pointed out offline the the line about the crime scenes , mm-hmm , that every crime scene breaks your heart , though You've never admit it . Yeah , like , no wonder she threw caution to the wind and gave yeah , you know yeah well and that because that sort of thing .
He named several things that I think people could notice Relatively easily , like her boring middle name , like that that doesn't take much to notice , and that she always puts her child first . You know she's . She's very clearly a fiercely devoted mom .
But then to say that every crime scene breaks your heart , though you would never admit it , that requires someone who really sees her and knows her , because she tries to hide it based on just what he's saying there and so like , all of it is Sweet and adorable , but that , I think , is the one that really gets to the heart of why she yeah , Kisses him .
Yeah , I agree , because ultimately , that's what we all want is to be seen . Right , yes , yeah truly seen , and especially from someone who is so self-centered , right , someone who's so wrapped up in his own stuff that that it's one one wants to be seen at all . Mm-hmm , that one has been seen by someone who is in the habit of not seeing .
Mm-hmm I think makes it all the more special and it just makes sense . It just really like resonates that that's that , that it had that effect on her , that you know she was like , yeah , you're probably right , and gave me a kiss , like it was great , yeah , yeah and I love .
Like the first time I saw it I was just like that was kind of a Disappointing looking kiss . But having rewatched it several times More than I've watched the episode like you it's it actually is very realistic , because it's like she surprises the hell out of him , cuz he's like looking down , like so we're done and and he's like wait , what ? What just happened ?
I'm very confused . Which leads into , which leaves in ?
yes , the first scene of love handles , oh , oh , this , the sexy dream . It turns out to be dream , the sexy dream scene . I've also seen that one much more than . I've seen the episode and More than the beach scene too .
It's funny I on this watch I don't know that I paid attention enough in previous watches but on this rewatch to prep for for today , I noted the song which I know . It's a Florence and the machine song from from their album Ceremonials , which I enjoyed that album and it's not a particularly sexy song like outside of this context .
Yeah , yeah .
But now talk about rearranging furniture . Whoo yeah , like I'm listening , I'm listening to the album . I was listening to the album yesterday and I was like oh , now I have a Pavlovian response to that song . It's called Seven Devils .
It's the name of the song , anyway , yeah .
Whoo yeah , and one of the things that we noted I was going to talk about the consent in that sexy dream scene Is that where you were going .
Yes , yeah , like something that's really cool . I mean , it's her dream , but her dream is a pretty good approximation of who's for is . And we didn't . We don't know that and we don't know that as we're watching . Yeah , but when he says , detective , are you sure ?
And she says , oh , shut up , right , that's really like it's a really cool moment because it's making it clear the importance of ongoing and enthusiastic consent and like .
The other thing I appreciate about it is that it shows that it doesn't have to slow things down or make things weird , because , like I've had people say like you know , well , that's the only issue I have with me too is like you know , asking for consent can really , like ruin the mood and like , but it doesn't have to , and like I don't want someone to just
sweep me up and kiss me , like even my husband , depending on what's going on . I mean , not that I want , okay , I'm going to have to say this now , because you might watch . Not that I want anyone else to kiss me either , but in any case , the like just pausing for a moment and just being like , hey , are you sure you want this can be hot .
You know , like , that's almost like , because when the because , when the answer is like yeah , yeah , agree , yeah , yeah .
The other thing that I think is really kind of cool about this moment is and I meant to look it up and I forgot Because we were talking about it offline this episode , I believe , came out prior to the Me Too movement .
It did .
It was in January of 2017 . January of 2017 . Yeah , because and Me Too was in the fall I mean , it was late 2017 . So I feel like a lot of media is trying harder to recognize the importance of consent post Me Too , the fact that they did this pre Me Too .
Yay , yeah , makes me happy . You know , what's really interesting to me , too , is that I think that the fact that it is a part of her dream , that in her dream he continues to get consent even while she is in some ways leading the activities , since she's on top Well , and she broke his buttons , pulling his shirt off , which again cannot blame her .
Yeah , that all feels in character , like I think Chloe is someone who likes control , right , so like that is all in character . And then the rest of the episode and like forgive me , lucy fans , who are big Lauren German fans , I am not .
I am not sure , though , if in this episode it's bad , it's the writing isn't quite right , or if it's her delivery isn't quite right , or maybe a little bit of column B , but I feel like , from the moment that she says maybe this time will be different , there's just something not quite in character . Like her smacking his ass , like no , her , even her .
Like like friends , you know sex with friends . Like not that she wouldn't hit on him , but she would not hit on him in front of Ella and she would not do it . I just yeah and like maybe she was trying to be more like him because Mays had said like she was trying to do what Mays said .
Yeah , Like throw caution to the wind and just you know , live a little Live a little , have a little fun , but that's not how she would have fun , that's not how she would flirt , neither , I mean .
I think her flirting would be like if we jump ahead , ahead , ahead when she's teasing Michael in the future . I think that's the way Chloe actually would flirt . Yeah , that sort of like , very like normal things that she would normally say , but with additional suggestive tweaks .
Yeah , yeah .
The things that she says and does , she would never say and do no .
I mean the one thing I could see is when she asks him if he's ever made out in the library , that one feels like okay , I , because she's just so straightforward , she's someone , she like she is just very straightforward and and like goes , goes right to the heart of things and and so like that's a straightforward kind of flirtation .
You know , she sees someone making out in the library , he's like I don't know , I mean it may smell like socks , but yeah .
I agree , that one , that one , that one , that one , that one , that would be a lot of character .
Yeah , I could maybe see sex with friends , except that it's in front of Ella .
but the like the giggle , oh yeah , like the over the overlapping .
Yeah , that does not feel like her at all . It seems like something she she get frustrated that in like seeing her mom do or something , although maybe that's like she's trying to channel her , trying to be her mom . Yeah , I find that aspect of this episode hard to watch .
Yeah , it's pretty cringy as the kids would say yeah .
Because we are an old , collectively , personally , and that's actually related to the other thing that I wanted to talk about , which is the thing that is totally a character and finally gets through to Lucifer , is when Chloe sees him after she is not sure he's going to be able to survive the thing that he's going to do next .
She sees him afterwards and he's okay , and she runs up and just embraces him and says I'm so glad you're okay , and he says this is real , isn't it ? Mm-hmm . And he's just floating , he's on cloud nine because he has this real , this real relationship , this real connection with . Chloe .
And then he falls off of that cloud when , less than an hour later yeah , when the goddess and Mazakeen make it so , that he discovers that Amenadiel caused the miracle that is Chloe's birth . That was close , granny Pani's Decker , yeah , yeah , yeah .
And so the thing that I'm , the thing that I'm really holding in the idea of choice and in this , like it's not real , none of it's real reaction is that it's not a binary Right . That's what the professor whose name I'm totally blanking on , carlisle Carlisle , made everything into a binary right . Like you save yourself or you save .
You save your work or you save the other person . Like , as if life were that sort of either or , and likewise with this , it's real , it's real or it's not real . Like there's no third way , which obviously life is more complicated than that .
Yeah .
Though in many ways it makes sense that a show about the devil would get stuck in either , or thinking right , because God and the devil are one of the primary binaries of Western culture .
Yeah Well , and it's actually very human of Lucifer to get in that binary thinking , cause that's a very human thing to do .
Well , it's very Western , I don't know if it is human , it's cultural , it is cultural .
For sure You're right , it is Western . I don't know if it's a , I don't know that .
Eastern cultures , or more Earth-based Indigenous cultures , have that same sort of binary . We , western culture for sure does .
Oh , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Yeah .
That is a good point In everything right , Like ketchup or mustard .
Like what about friggin' relish ? Yeah , like everything in Western culture is either or , but I'm not sure , even in the way that some of the Some Indigenous cultures don't have binaries for gender . I do believe that there are culturally other ways Mm-hmm , mm-hmm , but Lucifer is based on a very Western .
I mean like , oh yeah , the source material , the ultimate source material , is the bedrock of much of Western culture .
Yeah , yeah , absolutely . That is a very good point , and I now wanna dive into that because I do a lot of research and writing about cognitive biases in my day job and so I think of binary thinking as kind of a cognitive bias .
But cognitive biases are generally pretty much universal among humans , and so now I'm thinking about it and I'm like , oh wait , is that universal , or is that just kind of how we do things here in the West ?
I mean I'll be curious to hear what you find . I think it's a culture . I personally think it's a cultural thing , in part because of the gender thing , that's , native American nations who had other genders .
It was no big deal at all , yeah .
And also even thinking about storytelling right .
In the West , you must have conflicts .
But , that's not true in the East . Yeah , you can have . You can have just that sort of twist at the end . So anyway , I think it's worth investigating . Yeah , no , that's fascinating .
We have to wrap this up Because we have overthunk it enough . We have overthunk it enough that we both have places to be . We got places to be , but I do have one fluff , because self-worth comes from within bitches .
That is my new . I think that we should close out every episode that way from now on .
Well , that and I also like I'm a therapist and being taken for granted is in the job description .
Don't we get this from the yours ? All right , y'all . You heard it here first Self-worth comes from within , bitches , bitches .
Oh , and I got to slap this up . That's the other one .
I , when next time I need to go get dressed up , instead of saying I'm going to go put my face on , I'm going to go make myself beautiful , I am going to say I got to go slap this up , and then I will probably appear in a pants suit , because that is how I get dressed up now that I am a woman in my 40s .
That's just how I roll . That's how I roll bitches . All right , y'all See you next week .