Tracy and Emily are smart , lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah , the plot which they overthink .
Hello , I am here with my sister , Tracy Guy Decker , and she does use a hyphen , and I'm here with my sister , Emily Guy Birken no hyphen . And together we are lightbringers where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show . And , yes , we are overthinking it so much .
So today we're going to overthink 209 and 210 , home wrecker and quid pro ho . I just wanted to say that .
Yeah , yeah , no , I get it . The term quid pro quo got a lot more political than it was when these episodes originally came out .
True , true that . So these episodes were interesting . There I feel like they did the two of them together did some cementing of some relationships . So we knew Chloe had affection for Lucifer . She's made that clear .
But in these two episodes it's taken to a new level , like when she saves Lux , and then in the second one , in quid pro ho which is not actually easy to say , not very easy to say when she is basically forced into an impossible either or of affirm her trust and loyalty to Lucifer or work to convict the man she knows is responsible for her father's killing
and she chooses Lucifer . So I feel like there's there's some pretty serious cementing of bonds between the two of them in these two episodes . Yeah , and also Maze , maze and Chloe , like I know , I know that they were roommates and they sort of bonded over the girls night stuff .
And then I know Chloe really appreciates how much maze loves Trixie .
But the fierceness with which she says to a menadial nobody hurts Chloe on my watch , like it's intense , and I don't think we've seen that from her . It's always been sort of yeah , whatever , she's all right , I'm not sorry , I didn't kill her , yeah , yeah .
Well , and it shows , Maze does everything fiercely . She doesn't do anything by halves , I mean even when , like she knows what a menadial is up to . She doesn't just say I know what you're up to .
Right , right , she moves his car , his car , yeah .
It's a diploma , which is ridiculous and kind of amazing . And it's also . Linda makes a very good point about what a menadial has done to Maze True and and his lying to her in that way and how hurtful that is .
I think all of the characters actually we got some additional depth . These two , these two episodes were much more character than case driven . You know , we see in the goddess . I think we knew she was sort of casual with human lives , like from trip to stabby town , where she she's like , doesn't care if they're killing one , if we are killing one another .
But in these two episodes we see her actually willing to like , take steps to take the life of a human whom her son cares for , for whom her son cares , and that like level of lack of empathy . Yeah , I think we haven't seen that from her before . I don't think we would have seen lack of empathy , but not like this .
And and it works in so far as when , when the character was first introduced and like a menadial , was like you're scared , brother , what could possibly scare you ? Yeah , yeah , that's true . And then you meet her and you're like what is not that bad ? I mean , that's like an adult still being like having the fear from when they were a child , of their parent .
But no , she's actually totally unpredictable and dangerous .
Well , and that fits within the like , the greater mythos , both of this , the show , and then also of you know , if you trace it back to biblical idea of like a feminine divine . Well , if there's biblical idea , but you know ?
I mean , yeah , we talked about when , when , when , when she was first introduced , we talked about Ashura and the ways that that sort of divinity seems to have been tried to be erased , and not quite .
Well , what strikes me is that , because she's the goddess of creation , but she is also the goddess of destruction and so like , and the reason why she was banished to hell was because she was sending plagues and storms and , you know , destroying humans .
Right , which she said in Stabbitown she wanted , like a lot of humans , to die to get , to get his attention , god's attention , yeah .
And so like that's fine line between creation and destruction is actually , I think , really interesting .
I mean , even just thinking in Jewish tradition of you know the day of rest , you do not create or destroy , and like that is , it's not one or the other , it's both , because they are both , I mean , they're two sides of the same coin , they're both the same level of chaos .
I'm not sure I agree with that , but they do have you , don't think ? Related generative property . Yeah , you don't think creation is chaos . I don't think it's the same level of chaos . Hmm , because I think in creation there actually can be the creation of order .
Hmm , you know , we take like there's a whole bunch of just like random atoms , but they're aligned in the specific order , to be me , mm . Hmm .
I was thinking more kind of the biological , like the chaos of childbirth and like kind of comparing that to death , which in some ways can be orderly .
I mean , if you're just talking about straight up messiness , then I agree with you . I just I , in my mind , chaos is different than messiness .
Hmm , Well , I guess it's more like chaos . I'm going by unpredictability , hmm , so there's , there is order in the atoms to make up you , but it's unpredictable what that's going to be , or sometimes all too predictable .
Yeah , I'm seeing my therapist . Yeah , speaking of therapists , actually I'm going to bring us back to the show . Oh , yes , absolutely Something , really for me , really I don't know what the right word is it's it's , it's like poignant .
I guess there's something really resonant and poignant in the way the face that Lucifer makes on Linda's couch when she's like yeah , you're , you've stopped looking because you found it and it's Chloe . She didn't say in those words , but clearly that's what she meant .
And then in the next scene , chloe is like being stood up by him and he's like flips that phone over because he can't face it . He can't face how he feels about her . And that was directly from the implication in the writing is that that reaction that he has is directly the results of the breakthrough that he had on the couch .
Yeah , if he had , if his appointment was 24 hours later .
Yeah , he would have shown up .
Right , yeah , it seems like it's a lot of revelations for someone who's not very self aware . All at once , you know , he's has this revelation that Los Angeles is his home , Lux is his home , and then he has this revelation that you know what I could lose Lux and I'd still be home . And then Chloe saves Lux for him .
And you know it's like Holy shit , she really , Kyo . Why did she do that ? Why did she do that ?
That's the thing I mean . That's the crux of the conversation with Linda . Why would she do ?
that for me and so recognizing that there is something there but an affection there that is difficult for him to accept , and then for Linda to kind of guide him to the idea of you've stopped looking and like all of that is going to be like , yeah , it's completely in character and I don't want to say reasonable , but it fits , it's understandable .
It's understandable , comprehensible , why he would then be like yeah , I'm not going to go Kind of gone but I'm not going to go .
Yeah , yeah , these two episodes are full of revelations for lots of folks too . Men of Deal 2 , when he realizes that quid pro ho is the first time that we learn that Chloe is the result of a miracle that God asked a Men of Deal to perform , so which becomes central to a lot of the series really , and we just learned that here .
And you know , a Men of Deal's first response is like I've been a pawn , which is really important in the story structure to sort of put a Men of Deal in that kind of awkward like he's already feels like he's a fallen angel and he's really like struggling with having disappointed dad and now feeling anger at dad .
Like it's important to the story structure and there's also a certain part of me that's like 6,000 years or whatever of existence and you're just now realizing that . I mean , I guess you had to get out of the Silver City to actually like gain some of that awareness .
And I feel like some of that also has to do with the like the triangulation of his parents , him and Lucifer . Yeah , because so often he is like when he's talking to his mother , he's it's like why do you care so much about Lucifer ? Like I'm here with you and now with this , like dad sent me to do this miracle for Lucifer . So what the hell ?
And so like I think there's a lot of like the sibling rivalry .
The sibling rivalry .
And that is gonna cause him to feel more like a pawn than just having done the will of God Exactly , yeah , yeah , exactly . That's another completely comprehensible , like the way that you see the brothers interact with each other , the way that you see them interact with their mother . And you know , obviously this is a dysfunctional family .
But even in functional families , siblings struggle with feeling like you know , aren't I as good as that one ? Yeah , and so it makes sense to me that you know 6,000 years , this would be the thing that gets him because it's Lucifer . If it was just some random woman , like if it were like Ella , it would be like that's weird . Why did he have me do that ?
I'm not a big fan of him having had me do that , but why did he have me do that ?
But you know , like Actually , this is a case where , once again , some of you know those around God think they know why God behaved a certain way .
Yeah , you know , since it's our job to overthink , I also want to talk about when that scene where he has no idea what's happening in Chloe's apartment because they're about to go to court , because he's just coming to apologize for standing her up and Penelope assumes that he's there because of the trial and he says who killed my father ? Nietzsche , your father ?
That reference to Nietzsche , it was like , oh , that was just for nerds like me . Yeah .
Well , what I love is that they go from that joke to like less than five minutes later , when he's congratulating Penelope on being so poised . She's like I was just acting and I've been through this before . It's my second time at a trial . He's like maybe it's like , but stop , right , right , I've been through this for like less than five minutes .
It's the first time it's like less than five minutes , yeah , easier .
The second time , yeah it's like oh my goodness , god bless Rebecca D'Morne who plays Penelope , because her look of like what's going on .
He says that and Tom Ellis too , who delivers the Nietzsche line with the same seriousness that he approaches his craft as the Nietzsche line and the butt stuff .
Oh yeah , Speaking of having no idea what's going on the scene where Mays knows that Dan has slipped with , oh , yeah , and she just keeps shaking Sex innuendos yes . And Lucifer is so clueless , like once even Dan recognizes , like , what she's doing , because he's pretty clueless , because she's like you want to probe that angle , what's up from ?
every position .
Yeah , and then , like it takes Lucifer so long , Dan has to actually say it . Yes , and I know some of that is like he just can't wrap his head around the idea of either of those things that his mom is sexual or that Dan is sexual , Like I think that , like , just so , like he doesn't think of either of them in that way .
And then even if he did , he wouldn't put them together .
Although he does . When he introduces her to Linda , he says this is my mom in a disturbingly hot body , Something like that .
Yeah Well , like he recognizes that her human form is attractive , Attractive , yes , and horrifyingly so .
Which again feels pretty anachronistic , but that's OK , I forget her . Yeah , it's funny .
Well , no one likes to think about their parents having sex . I mean , yeah , yeah , I don't want to think about that . And then , like , as much as you don't want to think about them having sex with each other , you really don't want to think about them having sex with other people . Like it's bad enough . Being like , yeah , we know that had to have happened .
You know our parents had sex at least twice . Like , then , the idea that , yeah , I'll never call you stepdad . I do want to talk about a little bit about Homewrecker . There's a couple of things in there that I thought were interesting . First , like it's very clear that Dean Cooper , right , was the dead real estate mogul's name , right , I think so .
Yeah , he was clearly like Trump basis , like they call it . Like he worked in like the Cooper building and , you know , as a dynasty with his son , he had it thrown in his house . That was so ugly Cossentacious . Yeah , his son was named Eric , which .
And then the story of how Lucifer's lease was written in a lipstick lipstick on a strip or song on a strip or song . Yeah , like that . All feels like , hmm , I really got that , that was and this would have . I think this came out in All 2016 .
Yeah , November 2016 .
Yeah , so I marker I think that that is like there was a reason why , why they did all of that . You know was different enough . Yeah , angeles not New York , blah blah . So I thought that was that was interesting and worth noting . The other thing was the rival real estate mogul , eleanor Bloom .
I appreciated the moment between her and Chloe where Chloe's abusing her power but she's not wrong , which is , like you know , a murder investigation can tie up a real estate deal for years .
And that Bloom's immediate response is like I could use some of you on my team , right , some of you on my team Just a quick moment of female assertiveness , competency and like an appreciation which is just , it feels rare , you know , like it feels like so Eleanor Bloom is not supposed to be sympathetic , but she's like clearly intelligent , driven and like doesn't
care , doesn't care that she's not sympathetic and her only want is to destroy everything that this other guy had , which , like he , seemed like a piece of crap , so kind of understandable , you know . And then the fact that she recognizes what Chloe is able to do is also just pretty cool . Like I don't know .
I just I appreciated that because I feel like you don't often see that you . If you see a woman being assertive , someone will comment on it in a negative way or in an overly positive way , rather than it just be like I'm impressed , you knew your shit and you're good at it , so I appreciated that little moment that in her play .
I did wonder , though , with Lux you know being historic was like they couldn't have changed the like the mirror where there's a crack and he's not using the same stools that he used in the forties . Like I'm sorry they would have changed the furniture .
So like he had all this history and so I'm like all right , like when he was talking about the tunnels underneath , I'm like I believe that I believe the crack in the mirror stayed if it was high enough .
That you know . I can believe that the crack , the stools , I don't know , I don't know about the stools Cause at least the way that it reads on screen it's kind of a modern looking nightclub . It doesn't look like a seedy bar , like that hasn't changed much since the forties . But yeah , I was willing to buy it . Okay , all right , fair enough .
So , but I like and that was the way that Chloe saved it was another one of those like it shows her competence because , like , she realized , like oh , there's another way . Well , she said to him we have to find a legal way . Yeah , and so having that like oh , wait a minute .
And not only that , but also being able to expedite because she knew someone in the , in the historical office or whatever it was , like all of the city hall yeah . So I mean again , like it just it's so refreshing seeing someone who's a smart , tough woman , who's competent , and it just being what she does .
Similarly like with the fight scene between Mays and what was that guy's name , I don't remember .
The Chinese , the Chinese mafia guy .
Yeah .
Yeah , the bruiser .
That was awesome , although I did notice like they shortened the scene a little bit by just throwing him out the door , so like we don't have to see the beginning of it , like yeah , we don't have time to choreograph the entire fight scene . So even with that , with , like you know , dan was just like what , are you kidding me ?
And and it's like no , I mean Mays .
It's like yeah , she's terrifying , but look at that guy , that's just like it's interesting , though , that , like , the reason they were willing to give him up is because he was already dead , like even with the fight .
Yeah , did they . I mean , did they know he was already ? Well , yeah , they were responsible for killing him .
At least that was the implication .
Yeah , that's true Cause , and they knew the address were to find him , which they wouldn't have if someone else had killed him . Right , yeah , that is one thing about the legal case , like even if Chloe then had said Lucifer is lying , then wouldn't that call into question his testimony ?
Yeah , but the goddess said that she would have him play cause he didn't know . Yeah , yeah , yeah , cause the client Perry didn't realize how much he was winning , so she was going to have him play . That's a good point .
Yeah , what do you think about the way that Dan and Mays handled Perry ?
Well , dan has some major reservations later in the show , like it's one of the things he feels super guilty about . I don't know . I mean , like as a viewer , like as a consumer of literature , there's a great deal of poetic justice that he had used these crimes indicates against one another and then gets caught in the trap that he set for himself .
Yeah , there's definitely a lot of Hoist by his own petard . What's that mean ?
Oh , it's a , I can't remember which play , but it's some . Shakespeare said hoist by his own petard , which means like you set a trap , that for someone else and it catches you Like Heyman .
Yeah , killed on his own , exactly , exactly . Well , poor him . He's been there for ya .
We bring all the Jewish holidays to the yard . Yeah , and it's actually entirely possible that even if Dan and Mays didn't hasten it , he would have been , they would have found him .
They would have found him anyway .
Like it was . I mean , he was giving a news conference , but yeah , there's Chloe is like in the next episode , which we'll talk about next time . But it's like , yeah , this is not how it's supposed to go .
Which I don't know . I mean , I think that the showrunners took steps to make sure that he was completely unsympathetic . Right , because even when they catch him , he's coming out of a strip club like zipping his fly up . He says in the conference that he's happy to get back to his family , but then the next thing he sees the immediate thing .
you see , he's stumbling out of a sex club . So , like the showrunners went to Paines to make sure that we did not have any kind of sympathy for the man , and so I didn't have any kind of sympathy for the man , I followed them , you know , in the in the bigger picture . Yeah , punishment in and of itself is never like my first choice for society .
Yeah , that character was painted as fairly irredeemable though . Yeah , yeah , so I don't know . I mean , I know it causes a lot of angst for Dan .
Mm-hmm .
Moving forward , much to Maze's confusion . Yeah , but we'll get to that once we get there .
We'll get there . We'll get there . Yeah , so you mentioned before we got on you were saying like I told you I was going to be a few minutes late and you said like , oh , I'm going to go put on some guide or liner . So I just want to say Lucifer's a guy liner is on point .
He's doing best . I don't know if it's on point , but it is on . I think he needs to sharpen the pencil a little bit . It is very thick in these episodes .
Oh it's , but like I he's very , very thick . I love it Like . I just just like just gaze into my eyes for hours and I'll be happy .
My husband walked in while I was watching to prep for this and he was like is he wearing makeup ? Yes , hon . Yes , he's wearing makeup .
I'm sure we've talked about it previously where , like I , it took me a while to be like he's got to be wearing makeup and part of it is . I have a tendency to just kind of take things at face value . So I can very vividly remember watching a Marx Brothers movie , and it was not the first time I'd watched a Marx Brothers movie when .
I was a kid , we watched it .
We watched it as much , as much as was really much and I was just like and dad said something about a grease paint mustache was like that's paint . He's like of course it's paint and like no part of it like I want to excuse little eight year old me is black and white .
I think part of the reason why I realized we talked about it was it was on TV and someone dressed as as Groucho was introducing it in between commercials and that was very clearly paint . But I'm sympathetic to your husband because there is like yeah , that's just what they look like when you see someone on screen .
Ellis gave an interview at one point where he talked about how he had taken it over himself and how he came out looking like Cleopatra .
I think he was talking about season two , because of my line in season two and I do not have a problem with it , like just if eyeliner brings joy and it was clearly making him happy and it makes me happy . So we want the things that spark joy in our lives .
And for us it's heavy guy liner , apparently All right . Well , I have overthunk it enough .
You think we've ? Done over thunk it enough .
Yeah .
You got any final fluff , the interaction between Ella and Dan , how she is able to like well , because he immediately goes Charlotte Richards like you're right , and then he's like how did you know Right ?
And the only reason why Chloe didn't notice something was because this is a major upsetting day for her , like she's distracted by other things and Ella going through like well , you had a honey blonde hair that was longer than Chloe's and curlier , and I noticed what made up this whole thing . I was just like are you kidding ? Come on .
No , I saw your butt pucker with me . I always said her name .
Yeah yeah , it's funny because Lucifer is so oblivious so often . But then there's stuff like that where Dan is so oblivious , Even though , like I think , I mean , Dan's not a stupid guy , he's just , he's wrapped up in himself . I guess that was a fun fluffy moment .
Sounds like your dog thinks we've over thunk it enough .
Yeah , yeah , poor puppy , poor puppy .
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