Tracy and Emily are smart , lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah , the plot which they overthink .
Hey , lucifan , it's Tracie . Listen , heads up . Emily's mic on this episode was the wrong mic . It sounds terrible , but what she has to say , as always , is brilliant and hilarious . It's worth it . Thanks for listening . Hey y'all , I am back with my sister , Emily Guy Birken . She does not use a hyphen .
I'm with my sister , Tracie Guy-Dekker , and yes , she does use a hyphen .
I do , I do , and together we are lightbringers where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show . And , yes , we are overthinking it . So today we're talking about 207 and 208 , my Little Monkey and Trip to Stabbytown .
So I just want to start my reflections on this that well , there's so many things , but I'll save the fluffy things for the end , because that's what we do . These two episodes together had just so much pathos . I think we saw it in Monster too , with Lucifer's kind of self breakdown yeah , his breakdown and his self-loathing .
We started to see it in .
Monster . But the way that it manifests in these two episodes in particular in funny ways , with him kind of his dance formation , as he calls it , in each shadow's dance , is really funny , but also just like just marbled in with this sort of sadness and empathy that it pulls for me .
Well , in the moment when Dan was like that was really amazing what you did , like how did you lie to him about wanting to kill Lucifer Morningstar ? And he's like I didn't lie , that was real simple . And so matter of fact about it , like yeah , I didn't lie and Dan going like whoa wow , you've got issues .
You've got issues , dude , I know .
Like that's why I'm doing this thing where I'm pretending to be you .
Even the way he first decides to do that . He sits down and he says to Chloe like you need someone better than me , maybe someone boring , and then he realizes that Dan is the one , and it just I don't know .
There's something really touching , I guess , when you think about the way that he's constantly like ragging on Dan , but in the in , in that moment , like acknowledges that he thinks Dan is a better human being . Yeah , I mean , Lucifer is not human , but whatever the equivalent .
Better being .
Better being . So there were also two moments . So there was , there was pay-thos , and there was also I feel like there were two moments , one in each , where he kind of sort of lied or omitted the truth , so he was first in the bathhouse when he says the name's Dan .
He doesn't say whose name is .
Dan True , I guess yeah .
So he doesn't like I mean . He very specifically does not say my name is Dan or I am Dan . He says the name is Dan , yeah , which is a fact , even if he hasn't been standing next to .
Dan . Other one at the end , at the sort of day , new month of trip to well , just before of trip to stabby town , when he tells Chloe that the last murderer his name , I'm totally blanking on but the instructor glory and yeah , Jensen glories killer . Yeah . He tells Chloe that she killed him in an act of self-defense yeah .
Well , he's okay . So because I just watched it before he got on and I was thinking about that going into it , and so what he says is he attacked her before she ever , and so like he's playing with the expectations of time and the one of the . So he says he attacked her and this is clearly .
It was a clearly self-defense and again like she was not defending herself in the like immediate sense , but it was still a defensive self so Right in sort of a spiritual sense , almost yes , yeah . But I was thinking about it like even with him fudging things like that , cause they were gonna get her statement , I think she's- .
Yeah , the same thought . They seem like synchronized stories or anything , yeah .
So she's probably gonna be facing some pretty serious repercussions for a woman .
But you know , like all of the storylines about the victims in Trip the Sabbytown are just kind of like well , okay , so it just kind of ignores the fact that we have this enormous body count , Right , they make us despise Jensen Glorious , who were like whatever they really go out of their way , which is really interesting here .
I'm gonna overthink it a second . It's really interesting because the celestial arc of that episode is about how the goddess doesn't give a shit about these creatures that her husband created . Like she doesn't care . She even says like all humans die , they do it all the time . It's what they're designed for , right ?
While Lucifer and a men-a-dealer are like , oh , you can't do this . Like they matter , we care about them , but in the end , actually , we as the audience end up being much more like the goddess in this episode than we are like a men-a-dealer , lucifer Cause we're kind of like , oh yeah , seven bodies .
And now we're doing this like sort of x-rated pants and I'm about to be tied with Ella and Lucifer With his hand on her head , what's she doing no , and he knows exactly what it looks like to Chloe too , cause you can see from the look on his face .
Yeah , I mean Ella says all due respect to the dead but then proceed and I don't think she's supposed to recognize the x-rated nature of her pants and mine , but still like we do as the audience , and so part of that dramatic irony of like we know what's going on , I don't know . It's fun and irreverent .
Other thing , that where they just kind of hand wave like , oh yeah , they made it okay . In that moment what does Lucifer say to Ella ? Cause he says you're just gonna have to trust me for now .
So I'm not involved in the murder . I you know , I don't know .
So , and that was a similar kind of hand wave , like you know , like if we cut to the next scene , you won't think about it . Like you're right , I won't .
Until I watch it four , five , 20 times .
To overthink it with my sister . Yes , so yeah , I . One of the things that I getting to what you're talking about with the pathos that I appreciate with these two episodes , is like Lucifer is still flailing , like he's still emotionally overwhelmed , but he has figured out how to be functional , at least during this time .
I'm like in Monster , the previous episode , where he just he's just not holding it together , and so one of the things that I appreciate about the show is that I feel like it does a really good job of illuminating what it's like to have mental health issues , and so , like the fact that he's like , just so matter of fact , like , oh , easy , I , it was the
truth about like wanting to kill Lucifer Morningstar , like it's that feels realistic to people who are dealing with a really serious like mental problem that it becomes acute for a short time , and then they figure out a way to like okay , I , just , I can , you know , show up , not freak people out at work and and , but I'm still a mess .
You know what's interesting too , though . To your point , like when it was presented to him on stage showing the improv show , like cause , cause the , the scene that Dan did as Lucifer Morningstar in the improv show like actually didn't seem that . I mean , you know , lucifer is like how dare you subject me to that kind of caricature ?
But it could have been dialogue from the show , except that he's unlikely to pick up a hitchhiker . Yeah , I don't , you know , and that's part of why it got so upset .
Like to your point , like that this is kind of a takes from real life , like I think that when we sort of find our way to function , whatever , but then if our , what we see as our own foibles are presented in that way I mean this obviously is not a new concept I mean , hence it's the play .
The play is the thing that'll catch the king , or whatever it is from Hamlet , so not a new idea , in part because it feels so resonant .
Well , it's a joke that you always see on Twitter and stuff like , where someone will post something that's about themselves and other people are like why are you attacking me like this ?
Cause they recognize themselves Exactly .
Yeah , yeah and well , and it's also like . One of the things that I appreciate about the show is that everything is character driven for the most part . There are times when they they , you know do plot moving of characters rather than actual what the characters would do .
But it is completely realistic for Lucifer to be like , basically mocking Dan in his place of work for days at a time , even dressing like him , talking like him , walking like him , parting his hair like him in a way that feels mocking , and then like , when Dan is trying to let off some steam in this thing that he does by himself , privately well , not by
himself , but , you know , with friends who are unrelated and for Lucifer to be like how dare you , right , right ?
He like when Lucifer wasn't invited , he stalked him , like it's not , like Dan invited him to the show and then put on the caricature , like that's actually what I thought . When Lucifer says how dare you subject me ? I was kind of like he didn't . You subjected yourself by stalking him .
Yeah , so , and this is like , like seems like a really healthy outlet for Dan .
Plus the gym because , as Lucifer said , welcome to the country , whoa .
Joe Henderson tweeted around the time when that episode came out that they wrote that scene specifically . So they're like we need to get given a lot of cuteness on camera .
I'm like and we appreciate that , joe , yeah , I mean like I remember watching through the first time , going like this doesn't feel like okay , we're talking about realism when we're talking about a show about a crime-solving devil , but it seems like the devil would have better definition than a cop and later in the show he will Right , like I think they were .
Like Tom , you got to get on this . Yeah , why are you a ?
trainer . Yeah Well , he had a trainer Like I don't know if you know this story . He had a trainer and he said like if we get a fourth season , we're going to go all in . And they were canceled on Fox and then they were picked up by Netflix and his trainer was just like all right , come on , that's how we got .
Yeah , although on the other hand , I think there is something sort of fitting that Lucifer is trim but not sculpted , because it's just sort of natural , as opposed to Dan who's going , went through a divorce and like is in the gym to distract himself . Like Lucifer's fitness presumably just come as God-given , if you will .
So it makes sense that it would be you know , maybe a little less , and he's like , emotionally it could make sense that this is , you know , like he's usually , but he's not not feeling up to him , his normal self .
That's true , he does self-actualize .
Which we don't know yet . But you know , and like , this is way of something , that's just the Kevin Alejandro , just the nature of Tom Ellis's physique and Kevin Alejandro's physique , not celestial , yeah . But you know , if we can come up with a canon reason , I think that I am all for it , me too .
So the other thing I really want to talk about in both of these episodes is Linda , because it's the aftermath of her seeing Lucifer's face and realizing this is all real , it's all true , and her like he broke her . That's the language he uses .
I think I broke my therapist .
Yeah , and we don't see any interaction between the two of them in my Little Monkey , but Mays and Linda , like that's . It's kind of heartbreaking .
You know , what's interesting too is that there was an echo with Mays and Lucifer and with around Linda and Chloe , where when Lucifer was doing his dance formation and Chloe asked for help with the thing and that she figured something out and she's leaving to go follow up on a lead and he's like don't you want someone more helpful , like Dan ?
And he says she says no , I want my partner . And that's you Lucifer Morningstar . And then sort of an echo , but like inverse , when Mays says to Linda , when she finally kind of gives her the clarity as Linda calls it the first thing I wanted to do when I got this paycheck was to celebrate with my friend and that's you Linda .
Like that kind of construction of like , the general term and then various like , and that is you with your name , your full name . It stood out to me as resident and , frankly , like it totally works to our point about how Lucifer is so easy to manipulate , like she knew what to do to get his button gear and it worked .
He was like , oh yeah , and he had that cute little smile . But it also like for me , as very resident , with the way the Hebrew scriptures will talk , you know , like a lot of times , like like when we were studying .
We were studying recently and it was like hey , moses , is your father-in-law Jethro , every single time my father-in-law Jethro , like as if we got .
And it was like how Blemish will like will always sign their text messages .
Right , like boomers , do Like dad , like our dad used to like call him . He would do it to us like hey Trace , it's dad . But he also did it to his best friend hey Arnold , it's Jim Guy . As if Arnold knew any other gyms . They were friends for what ? 50 years or something . But anyway , anyway , I digress , I digress . I found that like it hit the mark .
They use that construction because it works and I don't know if it works because it's way back there in the Hebrew scripture when we remember it , or if it were , or if you know , both the Hebrew scripture and this are tapping into the same thing , or a little column A and a little column B .
But I noticed that that kind of I wanted this person and that's you like echoed a couple of times and I think that contributed to the pathos , like cause , like we all want to be chosen , you know , like that's , like such a universal feeling , cause that is ultimate belongingness , right , I wanted a friend and that's you .
Yeah , and it makes sense that it would be friendship that would be able to give Linda Clarity . You know cause . It's also like you know Cause . Friendship is magic . Friendship is magic . That's my little pony .
But it's also like friendship is a very weird relationship for all of us , cause , like it's always chosen , like there's no way your friendship is not chosen .
It's something that has varying levels of intimacy , whereas , like I mean , there are varying levels of intimacy in marriages and between parents and children , but there's the expectation of a certain kind of intimacy with those relationships . So it's just something that , like there's the friendship is magic .
There's also something to your point that , like there is a objective relationship with marriage , right , it's legally defined . And then the other things happen , you know , just depends on the two people .
But with friendship , like they're even though I can remember saying like that person's not a real friend , they're just an acquaintance , or a real friend wouldn't do X and such . Where did I get that definition from ? Like what am I basing that on ?
Because there is not in fact a sort of agreed upon definition of what constitutes friendship versus acquaintance , ship versus you know like in my mind . I've got like a whole , like like spectrum right . Like there's like a distant acquaintance and there's like a business acquaintance .
There's a friendly acquaintance which is before a friend Like there's like a whole spectrum .
And then there's just friend , like best friend from a certain period in your life .
Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , exactly . There's my best friend from high school , my best friend from college , my best friend , that's exactly exactly . And there's like this whole spectrum of like levels of intimacy that meet that , in my mind , require different labels , which tells you something about how I use language , folks .
Anyway , sorry , it's that she's a friend and this is chosen and this is a kind of intimacy that is unlike any other . And then Lucifer's a patient , which is they come and go . You know that's professional . And an ex lover similarly , yeah , similarly , yeah , and even to like I'm gonna get into something completely unrelated .
So I loved Sex and the City the first time around , really really loved it , and I loved it because of the friendship between the four women and so , like I have zero interest in seeing the reboot like none . And it's specifically because Kim Kattrol , as Samantha , is not involved In the original .
There was a scene when Carrie was cheating on Chris in the morning . I can't remember that actor's name . Aidan was the character's name . Anyway , this is the guy from Chris in the morning , from yeah , from Northern exposure yeah so he's always Chris in the morning of me on K-Bear .
So anyway , she's cheating on him with Big , who was married , and she talks to Samantha about it and like I know you're judging me or something like that , and Samantha says no , I don't judge honey . And like gives her a wink and like basically gives her room to unpack her own bad decisions while making it clear that she loves her unconditionally .
And the way that they wrote the character out for the reboot was like I have no interest in seeing this because it's not true to the characters . That ride or die for my friends was integral in who that character was , even more than the sex puns and all the other stuff that Samantha was known for .
So in any case , it was completely unrelated to this , but that gets to the strengths of those kinds of friendship bombs , particularly because they can be so long lasting and because , as Mazakine says , like I wanted to celebrate this milestone with my friends .
So like your friend is there to say this is incredible , you're finding a place , let's go have margaritas , you know . Or , like I'm so sorry your heart is broken , let's go have margaritas . Or whatever .
I think it's interesting too , though , that the actual clarity was I'm still the same person as I was before you knew .
So what's changed , which I think is also like useful clarity sometimes in our own lives you know , as like Well , whatever I mean to your point , that monster was sort of an allegory of being afraid to show something that you're ashamed of to people that you love . That kind of I'm the same person I was before you knew is a similar allegory .
You know that for those of us who aren't demons you know not that I include myself in that yeah , is there something ?
I should know .
I mean , if I can hide it from you , damn . Yeah , yeah , no , I think that that's also a good and that's actually if we project forward , like that's kind of what Chloe was missing and comes to on her own after engaging with the priest , Father Kinley , like she eventually gets there . He's the same person he was . I just know .
I just know something more about him . But it took her a minute to get there . It took her a long time and she tried to poison him but it took , you know , it took Linda some time to get there , to process it and come to that realization .
So and I like I don't want to give Linda short shrift , and then , like I love her , the next episode , like when she's broken , she's like what about Hitler ?
Right , what about my uncle ? He's one bad dude . Yeah , he is one bad mama job . That's what she says . You're right , mama job .
And then , like you know , the angel , yes , and the chick . So I like I don't want to give that short shrift , but I also want to make sure that we talk about Chloe and her father's death and for choice , at the end , when she has a little devil on one shoulder and a demon on the other telling her like no one's going to , we're not going to judge .
If you want to order off menu , yeah , so just calling it in .
I know that I respond differently to well , not differently , but the way that I respond to this episode is somewhat informed by the fact that our dad passed away in 2013 , even though it was nothing that dramatic you know , it was a natural cause , but there's still , like I can comprehend the anger in some ways , both her anger , and then go feel the daughter's
anger , like my father was taken away from me and I want to punish who's responsible . And since you know like and I've read that that's actually what's managed to pink in when he played in the Montoya in Princess Bride he had lost his own father to cancer and so he's like yeah , he made count broken into cancer for that , yeah , yeah , I've .
I've written as well . I don't know , like you know , if I had played a blast , I'm like I'd do a chair , but it's like . But it's not a person , you know , yeah .
Yeah , but I do think too , like setting her up , having her make that choice now , actually helps inform a choice we're going to see in an episode or two , where she chooses her integrity , or in that case , she chooses Lucifer and her relationship with Lucifer , like I think that her choosing her integrity as part of what yeah , I mean it's part of what the show
runners want us to see in her and what makes her a noble and , and you know , good character , like that's what makes her , keeps her a protagonist that we root for and and , and Lucifer sees that and he doesn't understand it , but he sees it .
And I think , actually , in some ways , that that's another moment of pathos when he says I think your father would be proud of you and like , like , with this sort of like , I don't really get it , but and then and and she's so touched by that and he's like I'm sorry , you know , make you cry .
And then you know , like , and that also becomes a recurring theme where he , in his obliviousness , is being super sweet and supportive , yeah , and she's like , just shut up , yeah .
Yeah , I love that moment , Well , and that's one that , that . And then there's the scene , several seasons forward , when Amenadiel tells , tells her that their father is proud of her .
He is in fact proud of her .
Yeah , and like both of those make me tear up , you know , because of course that's what I want to hear is that dad would be proud of me , and if he is and you know I don't have any celestial like getting that but you know , particularly since she's mad at herself , first for having followed Joe Field and so having it like that that was , it was inappropriate
what she was doing and she knew it was and she was so angry she couldn't not do it . And then , when they couldn't find the warden , and she was mad at herself for letting him like so to have this oblivious kind of asshole .
So he , like you know , in the next episode she's like he's not a guy , he's a weirdo , Like you know , like stumble into exactly what you needed to hear and was clearly hard for him to understand because he does not get along with his father and because he has , like , this weird issue where he says his father is God , which you know .
At the time she's like yeah , Right , right , okay .
So interestingly , in the whole arc , that is what he needed and wanted to hear from his dad too .
Yeah , so well , I mean , isn't it what we all need and want to hear from our parents ? And then , like that's , you know , my , my youngest , is he .
He , he's struggling a little bit because rain is wired a little differently from other people , and so we've been hearing that he's been a little sad at school because he felt like he's not doing things right , and so , like one of the things that I try to do every time I pick them up is like I'm so glad to see you and just let him know like I am proud
of him .
He is my father . Yeah , the whole notion of a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset like our parents just didn't have access to that and God bless them . They did absolutely the best that they could , but it's it's an effort to to make that shift . You know , I mean we were straight A students but bring home a B and it's not like , look at all these A's .
It's like what happened here . I mean , just I'm not saying this to like mom , I'm not criticizing you , I'm just saying yeah , yeah . Well , and like you've learned that a different approach is Having heard about her childhood too , right .
So , like you know , what she did was so many light years ahead of where grandma and grandpa were Exactly , exactly , yeah , and I was thinking about that too , even with them Again , because I can relate , having had a kid after my father died who would never had a chance to meet him .
When she tricks , he asks her what if I talk to my grandpa and make us cause I miss him ? And , like , the other thing that we have is both of our grandfathers died before either of us were born , right , and so I didn't know much about either of them .
I think mom had a similar sort of thing , like like Chloe Decker , in that she , she , missed him and it would hurt to talk about him , and then dad just didn't talk about anything , true , it's so true .
That's what dad would burn .
Like you know , he'd talk about movies , he'd talk about , like , current events , but he wouldn't talk about himself .
Right .
So like when Trixie said that , like one of the things that's really important to me is I try very hard to make sure my kids know who dad was .
Yeah . That's easier said than done .
Well , and there are things like like what she was doing with making the , the , the , the , the , so , like my kids think of peanut butter cookies as grandpa's cookies Got it Grape gins , peanut butter cookies , cause he really liked them but he didn't like desserts much , but that was one of his favorites .
So , speaking of kids , I actually need to go pick mine up , so I and we have been overthinking it for a while .
We have been overthinking it enough , Totally like you know , putting ourselves in the middle of it .
Well , that's what I mean . That is in good Lucifer fashion .
WWLD .
I will , I , I stand by putting myself inside that stand by it . And I want to take us out on a fluffy thing . Oh yeah , not literally fluffy this time Tom Ellis' eyeliner game .
I think it's funny because so I read a piece of fan fiction which was it was quite good actually , and in it , like Lucifer acknowledges that he wears this like super high end eyeliner , and that's become head cannon for me . But I know , actually I think in the show they want us to just he's not in fact wearing eyeliner that clearly Tom Ellis is .
But the scene in the bath house , the gun show in the bath house , I think it was genuinely in a sauna or something , because because it was like starting to smudge under his eyes , I just , I just loved it .
Well , I have read I don't know that for sure that this is true . I wish I could remember where I saw it that for at some point he was like let me do my own eyeliner instead of having the makeup artist go with it .
Yeah , he said it in an interview , but he came out looking like Cleopatra , yeah , and so I can go through an entire stick of it a week .
Yeah , and then they took it back from him , so he wasn't doing it himself anymore . Yeah and he said that in an interview .
My first watch through when . So I was watching it and I like at some point I think it was in this season , it might have been in season three I was just like right , just that beautiful and she's wearing a eyeliner , and I was like , no M .
He's wearing makeup In that episode , though in the bath house , there's no question , it's like a good half-aged under his eye .
So that's one fluffy thing . Other fluffy thing okay , that Dan is maintaining that physique when his favorite snack is pudding . So it must be like protein pudding . We find out later .
We found out later what kind of pudding it is .
Like it was labeled Nice . That is throat . Oh , it's so good . Well , you know , and the thing that gets me is that is the . That's when we get the angriest and that's actually the only thing that he has against Lucifer , Right ?
well , and that's why it's good that Lucifer is able to grab the knife before it gets to that thing a second time . Was it really my fault that you got divorced ? Was your career really my fault ? And then he takes the thing because the next thing , really is it . You really did eat his pudding . All right , I really gotta go . I gotta go pick up my kid .
You'll pick up your kid . I'll see you next week . See you next week .
Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin MacLeod from Encompetit Dorkon , licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 4.0 License . Visit the show notes for the URL . I am an artificially generated voice powered by Narrakicom . Lucifer is a Warner Brothers production that first aired on Fox and then Netflix .
Tracy and Emily are not affiliated with Fox , netflix nor WB . If you liked this episode , subscribe to keep overthinking with them and visit the show notes for other ways to connect .