Tracy and Emily are smart , lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah , the plot which they overthink .
Hello again . I am here with my sister , emily Guy-Burken . She does not use a hyphen .
I am here with my sister , tracy Guy-Dekker , and yes , she does use a hyphen . Together we are doing Lightbringers , where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show . And yes , we're overthinking it .
We are , we're overthinking it , so it is time for us to talk about what is it ? 9 and 10 , is that right ? 10 and 11 . 10 and 11 . I don't know why I can't keep track of the numbers , but I know the names . Pops and St Lucifer are the two episodes we're talking about today .
So yeah , and it's really interesting because as I was editing our previous episodes I realized several times I was like yeah , lucifer is a jerk . Like a couple of episodes I was like he's really kind of a jerk , but I think in Pops and St Lucifer , still a little bit of a jerk , but much less so .
Like we're starting to see him actually in St Lucifer in particular Well , no , at the end of Pops actually but we're starting to see him actually be less of a jerk , a little bit less self-centered a little bit . I mean a little bit .
He still has a journey .
He's still caught up in his own head and his own ego . But I feel like these two episodes together we start to see , I mean , and then the second one in St Lucifer , like this self-conscious , like trying on of altruism , which is sort of interesting and I guess we can get into in a minute .
But yeah , that was one thing that , as I've been editing our previous episodes , I have said multiple times . You know he's kind of a dick .
Well , I do want to say that I think . Well , I know for me I struggle sometimes when there is a point of view character and this is partially just because of the way that I'm built I take people at their word and some of what that means is point of view character . I start with .
The benefit of the doubt is like clearly they're good because they're the protagonist . So I struggle sometimes with unreliable narrators to realize that they're unreliable because I am very much like what you see is what you get .
And then , when it comes to things like television , if you have a good looking protagonist , the bat double whammy has to be like you can do anything . And I think I've mentioned before that it wasn't until rewatching X files in my 30s that I realized how completely toxic Mulder was .
Yeah , and it was a combination of , like that protagonist halo effect that just happens to me because of the way that I'm built , and then the fact that humming hum and I just kind of deletes whatever brain cells I have left .
That's funny , that's funny .
So I can understand why , like upon this free watch , you're like wow , he's really being a jerk because we are looking at it rather than just as like I want to watch pretty people and be entertained , we're actually , you know , kind of digging into it a little bit more .
Yeah , yeah , all right , so let's dig into the first one , to pops . So this is the story of the restaurateur who's been poisoned , and there's a lot of .
This is an opportunity now for the show to dig into so called daddy issues that's what Chloe calls them that Lucifer has because because there's a father son dynamic in the in the show and that's just sort of interesting because we've sort of heard up to this point , you know he's referred to God as his dad and just what seems kind of crazy , I think , from
Chloe's perspective , like delusional even .
And even in the story with the priest walks into a bar with Father Frank , there was definitely sort of this anger at God , but it still felt in the kind of , you know , metaphysical kind of way of anger at God and by having a father-son dynamic in this episode it brought it down to a more human level of a literal father that I , at least , don't think that
I had really fully brapped my arms around in the earlier episodes talking about God as Lucifer's father .
Also having the parallel of this is the first time we meet Chloe's mother Right .
We see another parent-child dynamic there , and it's a difficult one , and for reasons where I'm entirely on Chloe's side , because it does seem like Penelope Decker would be a very difficult mother to have yeah , although that is something that becomes more nuanced as the series goes on , you know she's not just an overbearing stage mother .
There is more to her than that , but we don't see it in this episode . We do not see it in this episode , and it's also the same way where we've talked a little bit about how it's pretty easy to manipulate Lucifer , like it's so easy for Penelope to charm him .
I was listening to an interview with Fiona Hill , who was I can't remember her exact title , but she's the British woman who , yes , was a member of the White House staff under the former guy I'm not gonna say his name and one of the things she was talking about was how Putin understood how easy it was to manipulate the former guy , cause , basically , if you
praise him , he likes you , and so I was thinking of that a little bit of you know how easy it is to manipulate Lucifer . Not that I feel like I have to make it clear Like Lucifer , the devil is nothing . Like the former guy , like I would not want to insult Lucifer by suggesting that .
No no .
And so , like I just was thinking about that , about how it's interesting that Lucifer is good at being a detective , considering how literal he is and how easy it is to manipulate him , but even with that , he still has a way of kind of cutting through the BS to get to stuff on these cases , like there's a reason why Chloe likes working with him and it's not
just cause he's pretty .
Yeah , so there was one scene that , like , speaking of being literal like this , is a problem of mine in interpreting literature . Sometimes I miss the subtext .
The final scene in the final scene in Pops well , not the final final , but the sort of climax when the restaurant is on fire , which , by the way , seemed to happen like that , like Flash Over , was like instantaneous . They get out with a jacket or something over Chloe's head and he's carrying her .
What I have no idea . Like she says , do you have any ideas ?
And the next thing you know , you see him carrying her out , but the jacket over her head and he gets burned on his arm , which he remarks like the devil got burned by fire . What's this world coming to ? Is it an ironic , don't you think ? Thank you , elenis , bye . Well , I mean , we've established that he's vulnerable .
We don't yet know , because we don't discover till the next episode , that it's because of her presence that he's vulnerable , and the smoke was bad enough that she needed a jacket over her head . Yeah , but it didn't affect him . But he did get burned . Like what ?
What am I missing ? I don't know what that was supposed to be . Okay . Similarly , it took me multiple rewatches to understand what happened at the end , when she falls asleep on him and he goes . Oh God , it took me multiple rewatches to realize oh , it's suggesting that he's the son that God wants him to be right now . And I'm like .
Part of my problem , I think , is that not having sex with someone who's drunk seems real minor .
That was a low bar . A low bar that's like although to be I mean , okay , let's bring it back , like some of the things that his father have said that we shouldn't do , like don't put a stumbling block in front of the blind , you know . Like don't oppress the widow and the orphan , like all seem like pretty low bar .
Okay , that's fair , but are repeated over and over again in the text . So was that ? Was that a constant ?
problem ? He actually does have a fairly low bar .
Okay that's reasonable . I'm going to Gehenna , I know , I know . Would you like to explain what Gehenna is for those who don't know ? Yeah , right , right . Sorry , it's hell , but it's not a Christian hell , it's like a . It's more like Christian purgatory .
Yeah , yeah , and we believe you can only be there for 12 earthly months , which is why we say cottage for 11 months , because no one wants to suggest that their parents required the full amounts of cleansing , that it is possible . Yeah , but you know , actually this show suggests that time works differently in the celestial realms than it does on earth .
So 12 earthly months could be who knows how long . Yeah , in Gehenna . Yeah , sorry , that was a total aside . Total aside , yes , yes , not taking advantage of a drunken person does not seem like a really like saintly thing despite the next episode .
Yeah yeah .
So , and actually let's talk about this , this is the next episode , because he can't lie , he doesn't lie , he can , he doesn't . But when she wakes up and she's like , oh no , you know , did we ? And he says we did , did we ever he ?
said did we ever ?
We did , we made , I think we made Rosemary's baby and then he lets her in on , you know , he tells her the truth immediately . But I don't know . I guess that no lying rule is like fuzzy when you're playing a joke on someone I don't know .
Well , because that's not the first time he's done that to her , because in the very first episode , when she wakes up from being shot .
Oh right , he says he's like it's been three years .
Right , you're right . He immediately like makes it clear , like I'm just , I'm just pulling your leg .
Yeah so .
Interesting .
Yeah , but I that that also , that moment when he , like , puts on the American accent and says you know , it's hot as hell in this five-star whatever it is , she's hot , she's five-star hellhole , exactly . Thank you too . Hot in this five-star hellhole , that is so charming . I mean so charming , does that ? And she's like I do that sometimes .
But I'm pet .
Well , it's also .
it's charming seeing her flustered Right Cause she's been so rigid .
Yes , yeah and so like , and it makes sense that the way the episode ends where she says I can be vulnerable around you , like you get to , you see that , and she , it's very clear she doesn't let anyone see that . Yeah For her , and which is you know , it's understandable .
Now , I mean , presumably she let Dan see that when , when their marriage wasn't on the rocks , but as of right now in her life she's got no one she can , she can do that with yeah , which also makes sense Up sale .
When she felt hurt , she went to him .
Exactly Well , and of course , she's hurt . She's , I mean , I I do want to . So I've mentioned how I loved Malcolm as a bad guy when he's talking about what they , what they do to you and hell . So this is something where I've seen people saying like , okay , this doesn't make sense . They say that , like you know , or your guilt sends you to hell .
But clearly Malcolm Graham does not feel guilty about anything he's done , like that's not why he went to hell .
But there are times when you see they're , on the couple of occasions when you see hell which we have in at this point , they say the doors are open , but there are some doors that are changed shut , and it's more than one , so it's not just the goddess , and so I think that that makes pretty clear that there are the normal people who are are basically good
human beings , who feel guilty and they go to hell . And then there's , like the Hitler types , who the sociopaths and psychopaths , sociopaths who feel no guilt . And so , instead of a hell loop being whatever it is he feels guilty about , his hell loop is using what he loves against him , like harping him , keeping him away from other people , keeping him isolated .
I just I really appreciate that and , like , as I've said , I just I love this actor , like just having a ball with this character . And when he goes to shoot Lucifer , I was thinking about the fact that he's hesitating , which Vanessa Dunlear does not , but she doesn't know . Lucifer is a celestial , so it makes more sense why she doesn't hesitate .
And so , like being in on this and knowing you're killing the literal devil , like that's going to take a little something to get your , your screw , your courage to the sticking place . There we go . You know it's interesting .
You mentioned Vanessa , to like her . She killed her husband with a single gunshot to the chest . She boosts , forgot three , right , I don't ? I don't know what to do with that , but I do think you know it's interesting because they made a point .
You know it was a single gunshot to the chest and they made a point of bang , bang , bang and then you could see the three separate bullet holes . Yeah , yeah his shirt and and jacket .
Yeah , wonder if it's that that could be understood as a as a indication of panic .
Maybe , or maybe I mean people downstairs .
Yeah , and she did . She didn't go there with the intention of killing Lucifer , right Like it was . It was a decision she made when , when he kind of uncovered of uncovered the truth or no extra vision there . Nazis .
That's where .
Nazis go yeah , yeah , yeah . So maybe you know that , whereas Tim was a premeditated and so yeah , one and done . Poor Tim and poor .
Kyle , poor Kyle . I felt so bad for poor Kyle , particularly like I find it a little hard to watch the scene where he's singing .
To all the rich ladies .
Yes , even though the moment when when Chloe goes and he's singing .
No , she says , and he's breaking into song even better even better , and like she says it like into her cup , like oh God , people know I came with him , like that's hilarious , but it's painful to watch him singing , even though everyone's enjoying themselves , except for Kyle , and of course Kyle's not , as poor guy lost the love of his life , yeah , so , um , yeah
, yeah , that's um . I think that's the thing that I really appreciate , that and the take the short off my back , much as I really appreciate getting a chance to see me , lucifer , I have .
I have so much secondhand embarrassment yeah , Although he's not embarrassed at all , Not even a little Well again . And when she says you're not getting in my car like that .
Okay , so we'll meet , we'll meet at mine . And she said that was the other time , Like , and he's naked Of course he is .
Yeah , and the and the show runners like very conveniently place like something in the bunch yes , oh , they're 12 , they're 12 year old boys .
Well , you know , are we all right . Yeah , my co-author was was someone asked him for the book that I have coming out . Someone asked him was like there are a lot of dick jokes , and his response was like , yeah , and Emily wrote like 95% of them and it's true .
So the the the other thing that I want to make sure we talk about is um May's and all of her relationships in these two episodes .
Yeah , and the other thing that I want to make sure that we talk about is , you know , May's and Trixie it's just so perfect .
Well , this and this this is the seed for what actually becomes a like a really important relationship for both . Yeah , yeah , in the long-term .
And it was really cool how how touched May's was when when she's like I came looking for Lucifer but I couldn't find him , so I made a new friend , yeah , and I think , I think that she really conveyed that with just her face , um , and and body language .
Yeah .
In ways that , like I knew exactly what what happened as she heard the word friend I I . I think Leslie and Brent really pulled that one off .
Yeah . And then the the um . My name's Mad Mazikine , but you can call me May's and Chloe says thank you , may . She's like I didn't say you could . Yeah . I think that is one of my favorite moments in the um , in the episode , in both of these episodes , um and uh , particularly like the she pours me I don't know what's a bourbon or Scott .
She's like yeah , she's like this is your example , sure .
Yeah , yeah , yeah . Even just the way they talk . Like which one of them wants you to look like an aging drag queen ? Guess my grandma .
I guess my grandma , yeah , yeah , Um . I think that's the one thing that I think is important to me . And then the fact that May's recognizes , like I did make a friend no-transcript is an adult as well , and she goes to like let's be friends with Linda and I . The way Linda responds to that is lovely as well .
And then the scene in St Lucifer between Emanadiel and he's like I'm fun , as he's putting it .
The napkin in his collar .
He's like okay , nevermind . And she's like no , you're not fun . And he's like you know the goat thing ? Yeah , like that entire his face , yeah , like he's so enjoying it . And she's like oh , I got something . And then the wink , which I like . I usually hate winking , but that is like perfect .
I tell you what DB , what side you may wink at me whenever you like , Just saying I'm here for the wink .
It was delicious , yes .
So yeah , I mean like , and that's these two episodes kind of place , like are the first times that May's is branching out and is forming new relationships on her own and they all end up being very important to her throughout and I just really really appreciate how they all work out here and I think that's part of the importance of once we get towards the end
of her and Lucifer being able to like recognize their friendship is because she has friendships with others .
Yeah , yeah , I'm gonna come back . So the close of this episode actually is a big reveal that I imagine the writers were like aiming at , from the pilot even , where we confirm and Lucifer confirms for himself that it is the presence of Chloe that makes him physically vulnerable . So it's really interesting that that one that it's come here .
It took us 11 episodes to get there . That's to your point from earlier episodes , like a way to go , a way to go team , because it's the kind of thing that I imagine you would wanna reveal more quickly than 11 episodes . So , but it took this time actually to build it up so that we thought he was vulnerable , like it was a new normal for him .
And then Because it's been since episode four , I think that's when Manly whatnot's , when she shoots him yeah , so that we know of it . And it was in that episode where she saw his scars and he said don't please . And that was when he saw him emotionally vulnerable for the first time .
Right , right , yeah . So anyway , I just I wanted to make sure that we . This writing team , this writing team . Yeah , it's so good .
So good , so good . Joe and LD , we love you . So , yeah , I feel like they did a great job of slowing that reveal , because it is .
It does get to that , like the shipping , the Decker star does get to that , and there is , I'm sure , a lot of pressure , like from the studio , from the network rather than the studio , like from fans and stuff to like get to the good stuff and they're like no , no , it's gonna be slow and you'll like it better that way .
So , yeah , I agree , that's really lovely how they did that . And I wonder . Like he holds his hand and he was gonna say something , then he sees that he is bleeding and like he changes what he was gonna say . Yeah , and I wish I knew what he was gonna say .
Yeah , all right . Last thing , maybe last thing Dan seeing Dan handcuffed to that pole just for me was like holy shit , dan , throughout the six seasons of this television show , like he has some traumatic shit happen to him . He really does Like really traumatic , yeah . And like I mean his nickname is Detective Douche , like he's he .
He's sort of like in my memory he's like sort of this goofball , like well-meaning goofball who keeps screwing it up . But now that I'm rewatching it and paying closer attention , like it's not just that , like he actually has been through some really really hard stuff . I mean being kidnapped by Malcolm , like in the first season .
Yeah , like that's , and particularly like with how high the stakes are .
Like you know , the one of the things that I really appreciated is like there's that awful dinner scene that's like lovely awful , like it's perfect awkward , and Dan takes Junior for a statement you know specifically like I need to get out of here and he says to Lucifer I wanted one reason to stick up for you .
Right .
One Right . And then the next time you see Dan , he's confronting Malcolm and you're like , oh shit , he's going to be like , do it , let's do it . And but he , instead , he says to Malcolm like he's dangerous , he shouldn't be allowed to continue doing what he's doing .
But I still am not going to let you kill him and so , like I feel like that does speak to the like , the core of decency he's got whatever within him that makes him okay with taking shortcuts , which is not who Chloe is at all Right , and I wonder if that's part of what made them not work as a couple , because once we get to actual Charlotte , she was
also okay with taking shortcuts . You know , although she , she had a core of decency as well .
But you know not only like he stood up to Malcolm and then , like figured out a way to get out and the first thing he did was run to to to warn Lucifer , yeah , and like he's I mean , just that's heroic yeah , for as much awful stuff as he's done and for every reason that Chloe has to be pasted him that really was he did try to do the right thing at
every turn .
At this point , like he , which is what I mean . Much , much later , lucifer says about him you always try to do the right thing .
I can count on it . Yeah Well , that was even in terms of Palmetto . Like he shot Malcolm to protect Chloe , right ?
He then gaslit Chloe right like himself which is not the right thing , not cool .
Yeah , that ain't cool man , so , but that's , that's a why I think he's such a compelling character . You know , there's like he's .
He's willing to cut corners , but he's also like truly decent yeah or he's deeply flawed , but he wants to do the right thing , and if that doesn't describe most of us , I don't know what's yeah yeah . Yeah , I think we overthunk it .
You think we overthunk it enough .
Yeah , we did any final pet peeves or thoughts .
Chloe not cutting corners . When he breaks into Naomi's apartment and pops and and she's like , all right , let's just search quickly . And they end up taking Naomi in for a statement and like , is any of this invisible ?
But the fluffy thing is when he he hears the couple on the other side of the wall having sex just like what , if you ever had a problem with that . And then one goes , oh God , just like that . Right , he's ruining everything .
I like , which is really interesting . I mean they did that very intentionally , because then they end the episode with him saying oh God , oh God , yeah , yeah , well done Again . Writer's of loser Well done , yes , yeah . Also .
My final , my final parting thought is the scene from the outside of the car when Mays and a men of deal are having sex and then the wings on furl and like break the glass . That's super hot .
Because it's like , because , like when you're seeing this the first time , you're like , well , it's clearly someone's getting it on , but who , what's someone's ? I can't possibly think who this would be , because it never occurred to you that would be made in a men of deal .
And then you see that , like , for one thing , excellent visual storytelling , because they made it clear without showing anybody's face or body parts , or body parts or anything well other than wings and hands and hands . Oh , yes , and hands , but also just like , yeah , that and Tom Jones is the sound . That's just weird and funny .
All right , yes , with that I will say it's not unusual to be loved by anyone .
Our theme song is feral angel waltz by Kevin McLeod from incompetent door called , licensed under creative commons by attribution 4.0 license . Visit the show notes for the URL . I am an artificially generated voice powered by Narrakeithcom . Lucifer is a Warner Brothers production that first aired on Fox and then Netflix .
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