Tracie and Emily are smart , lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah , the plot which they overthink .
Hi , I'm Tracie . Hey , y'all , I'm here . That's my sister , Emily Guy-Birken . She doesn't use a hyphen .
And that's my sister , Tracie Guy-Decker , and she does use a hyphen .
Yeah , and this is Lightbringers .
Yes , this is where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show .
And yes , we are overthinking it . Yeah , we are , we are . So today we're going to talk about episodes 104 and 105 . Manly what nots is 104 and sweet kicks is 105 . So , um , yeah , so we were actually just before we pressed record . We were talking about something that you said you wanted to talk about Manly what nots .
So I'm going to let you lay that out for our audience and then I'll pick back up where , where we were before we hit record .
So Manly . What nots is the episode where we first see Lucifer is vulnerable around Chloe , and it's the first time he is vulnerable around Chloe , because he gets shot in front of her in the pilots and shrugs it off , no problem .
So , uh , what's interesting is , upon this rewatch is noticing that , uh , now there's never any straight answer on exactly why he's vulnerable around Chloe . So I think that's the reason why he's vulnerable around Chloe . There is the theory that , since Angel self actualize his emotional vulnerability around her is self actualized as physical vulnerability .
Uh , and I think that that is basically what the , what the writers are going for , which we don't get that theory for Many , many issues Like into future seasons , season five , I think .
So what's fascinating to me is that in the same episode where he is physically vulnerable , he is the first time you see Lucifer truly emotionally vulnerable , and it's with Chloe , and it's when he , uh she shows up at the penthouse and he appears naked just to be like hey , turn about fair play .
He says yeah you can see me , um , and she's very uncomfortable . He's put something on and he wraps a , a afghan or something around himself , so he's covered and he , like um , spins around so she can take in all the glory .
That is six feet four inches of Tom Ellis , and she sees the scars on his back from where he cut off his wings and , uh , she immediately goes from like uncomfortable , embarrassed , embarrassed , like like he was so so , so so angry .
And so so , so , so , so , really , so you know , he really he , he , he he he he , he he , he avoided him to like , but also a little bit periant , there's a little bit . Yeah , there is some period . Yeah , well , he's still , still still peeking . Yeah , can you blame ?
her Um , but she immediately goes from from that to concerned . To like what ?
happened to you ? Who did this to ?
you ? Yes , he whips around really quickly and grabs her wrist .
And what's really fascinating about that scene is the first time and you don't like you know , because we binged it watching it originally it's the first time you see him without any of his masks on , like , and he seems even surprised by it .
Yeah , he is disconcerted by it . He immediately goes and puts them . Like I need to .
Yeah .
I think that moment when he has her wrist in his hand as well , like it's a , it's a gift , like I see it on Twitter , like from the Lucifer fans who might follow and and in my memory there's a bit of like , there's an abruptness to it , this sort of like stop . But in reality he plays it . It's not like that . He says don't , please .
Without that edge of like . How dare you ? There's no , there's no sort of like , there's no anger edge to the way he delivers that line . It really is more like a genuine please don't . And I think that's really supports your point about genuine vulnerability in that moment .
It's not vulnerability covered over by machismo or covered over by you know the sly the sides or the humor or anything else . It's just a straight up authentic , don't please .
Yeah , and it's interesting in terms of you know how this is written . So apparently none of his lovers have ever expressed concern .
Presumably Well , they haven't been . The wings haven't been gone super long time . Well it's five years .
We later find out , we later find out , it's been five years . It's been five years .
And he is a prolific lover . He is so yes , so yes , yes , yes .
None of his other human lovers have ever presumably so this is clearly like there is some give and take here , in that she is seeing him and seeing beyond the mask that he shares with the world , that he's comfortable in .
So what I was telling you before we started recording that I find so impressive with the writers is that they I think it's very clear they had this idea in mind that he is vulnerable around Chloe because physically , because he is emotionally vulnerable around her .
And we get that a little bit later in the season where he says oh , it appears you make me vulnerable too . We'll get to that a little bit , but we don't know why . We don't know about the self actualization or anything like that . What I find impressive is that with TV , you don't have any guarantee of an end date .
You don't have any guarantee of additional seasons . You write a pilot . You don't have a guarantee it's gonna be picked up . You get the first season . You don't have any guarantee you're gonna get a second . And so they are playing this long game of like what makes him vulnerable and they give like .
Other people have theories , like once you get to season three , you see that Kane has a theory that there's something about Chloe that makes Celestials vulnerable , or maybe it's the fact that Chloe is in love with Lucifer , which I was reading some AV club reviews of season three as it came out or contemporaneous with it when it came out , saying like well , that
would just suggest that Chloe was in love with Lucifer as of the fourth episode . And we're like , yeah , that's absolutely not the case . And what I love is that it is a cool idea of what is the makes Lucifer vulnerable , and the writers did not feel the need to highlight it and point arrows at it and have flashing lights to be like , hey , isn't this cool ?
Which I feel like a lot of writers would want to do , particularly since you don't know what you're gonna get in terms of are you gonna be able to finish telling the story ? So it's just a matter of I am impressed when writers are playing the long game with a genre or a medium where you don't necessarily get a long story .
Yeah , yeah , yeah , and so the thing I was gonna push back on you about before we hit record was I .
That may well be exactly what's happening , and so I'm thinking of other , specifically science fiction shows , and I'm thinking of Battle Star Galactica , which I know is not one of your shows , but in Battle Star Galactica there's this weird thing that happens where Starbucks comes back and talking about the reboot the most recent , which also features a health care ?
Actually it does , yes .
She has like a cottage industry of playing not quite humans .
Very sexy , not quite human , very sexy , not quite humans . Yeah , yeah , yeah .
So Starbucks comes back from the dead and has no memory of it , and it's not clear how that happened and it's just this weird huge mystery that , based on the way they wrapped it up , I was left with the impression that the writers didn't know how it happened either and they just kind of were like , oh , she's gone now I don't know , it's a mystery .
Like I was left with the impression from Galactica that , like it worked for the story . They wanted her back , they wanted this mystery and sort of spirituality . That was like , I mean , basically out of character . Like they wanted this , all of the things that came with it , but they didn't actually have an answer for the why . And so there was .
I mean , if there had been a why that had been neatly wrapped up in the end of Galaxica , then I could have said they did the exact same thing or they did a similar thing to what you're suggesting the showrunners did for Lucifer from these episodes that we're talking about today . Because there was .
I was left with this sense of like yeah , the writers didn't know either .
It makes me like I'm just thinking of , like I would hesitate to compare myself to the showrunners from the show , because I think they're really , really good and so talented and I can imagine my you know less well-crafted stuff that I write where I sit down to write and I'm not exactly sure how it's gonna work out .
But I know this thing and , like , sometimes I don't like sometimes the answer reveals itself as I'm working right , and so I wonder if I mean , like , the self-actualization piece is so beautiful , it's just so lovely that we get , not until the fifth season , which they didn't expect to have right Because Fox canceled them , like that was the result of the save
Lucifer thing . So I wonder if it was sort of the ? I mean , who was it that said good luck is the residue of design ? Is that Oscar Wilde ? I don't know who said that . I'm sorry , whoever you are , I apologize for not crediting you appropriately .
I sort of think maybe that this solution , that is , the long game , is actually the residue of good design , but maybe not , like Joe and Ildy and the other writers were sitting around in 2016 going , yeah , an angel , self-actualized . I'm just putting it out there .
Here's the thing , though , cause we have other examples of them as self-actualizing , so like with long before we get to where they use those , those terms , so within the second season , with the Menadil losing his wings .
Yes , that's true . And so like we have also read , with solving a problem because the CG for those wings was so expensive .
Okay , okay . Well , that's cause I the same thing with the time slowing . That's an expensive special effect and I actually one of the things I noticed in this rewatch is that every like they do like the big scale time slowing . But then when a Menadil gosh which episode was it ?
A Menadil comes to him in the penthouse and he's thrown an apple in the air and that's the only thing that slows , cause his guests are still asleep , unlike . That is a lot easier than slowing time in Lux , yeah , so yes , or on the street or whatever .
Yeah , so I mean and you know I can't gotta say it you know , sometimes certain people , certain divinities work in mysterious ways .
Yeah , and I , you know , I will say , like one of the things that I find fascinating about television even more than movies , because , again , it's that ongoing aspect of it . You're filming stuff without knowing when it will end , how it will end , if you have like , if you have more seasons , all of that is how collaborative it becomes .
So , like Lucifer's ring that he wears on the middle finger of his right hand is something that Tom Ellis , when he was getting dressed for you know , getting costumed for the pilot , like I feel like I need something else , and he found that in like the costume shop and was like , yeah , this is perfect .
And then it became a major storyline in the fifth season . Yeah , so there is some collaborative effort to that , but I really I mean , obviously , unless we ever get a chance to chat with Joe and LD , I really did feel like .
Please get in touch with Joe and LD but , like , please don't hesitate , love to hear from you , all right carry on .
I really do feel like it is not a coincidence that the first time we in any way see his like charming devil mask slip is also the first time he bleeds .
I agree , I completely agree , I think that is . That is straight up good writing . I don't think that's an accident . I agree , I agree , yeah .
And I just , I so appreciate how well they do that . And then also , even though I mean Lucifer's in therapy he's meeting with Dr Linda every week and yet he still has not been himself with Linda . But it's not until this moment , with Chloe , that he is truly the scarred , broken man .
Yeah .
I just don't please .
Yeah , yeah , yeah . I'm gonna move us on to the other episode that we wanted to talk about , sweet Kicks , for a moment , because I think that after the that sort of window into a sort of broke , the brokenness of Lucifer in Manly what Nots , then in Sweet Kicks , like he's just an asshole .
You know like the amount of what's the word I'm looking for , like belittling that he does , of emotion , and like sort of the toxic masculinity that he is exuding .
In Sweet Kicks , like around the Diego and Danny , the characters like when Diego is emotional about his cousin's death , yeah , and Lucifer is like is that flop , flop , sweat or a tear , what the hell is going on ?
You know he doesn't say that , but that's the sentiment and like he's just a jerk in that episode and like it becomes cumulative because in that episode he also starts to .
I mean , we talked about in our last episode , we talked about Lucifer sort of starting to feel some responsibility , maybe kind of a little bit around Ali's death in the what Be Prince of Darkness . And then again we get that in Sweet Kicks when , because Khloe points it out , he realizes that by granting the favor to Benny Choi Benny , thank you that .
Yellow viper and yellow viper to present . Yes , yes .
So I mean it takes Khloe saying it out loud for him to see it , but that actually then that sense of like having kind of been played for some , is what drives the final , his final interaction with Benny , in making sure that Benny is restrained in a very overly dramatic sort of way , because Lucifer is a drama king , if something else .
So , anyway , I just I wanted to kind of since we're holding both of those episodes , I wanted to kind of contrast that , where we get this glimpse of maybe something besides the jerk persona that we've met , and then it's right back full force again in the next episode , with the way that he reacts to basically any display of emotion in that episode , from Diego
and Danny or from Viper , just from Dan , yeah , from Dan , from Hector , who is the actual trigger man , yeah yeah , well , and it's .
it makes sense in terms of how someone as immature as Lucifer would respond to having a moment of emotional vulnerability . Like you know , like you gotta overcorrect .
Yeah , yeah , that's true , that's true , you know it , also based on our last episode where we talked a lot about the racial identity of the cast , like this episode actually delves into that a bit as well , since the Latin kings and the Asian boys were sort of the two central gangs in the episode and so a lot of the supporting actors were either Latinx or
Asian . Interesting , just to note , based on what we have talked about . Yes , yeah , I mean they were characterized as gang members pretty predominantly , although , you know , yellow Viper was a very sympathetic character .
Yes , completely and really , I think , ultimately noble , because even when Lucifer did his mojo and wanted to know what his deepest desire was , it was just to do his art .
Yeah , well , that was what he wanted that image of when the Latin kings and Danny and Diego show up and he immediately steps in front of his kids and puts his arms out . It reminded me I remember you and I talking about Harry Potter , when Snape immediately stood in front of the three kids in Prisoner of Azkaban to protect them .
So you know , that's just such a clear indication of what his priorities are .
You know , it's really interesting , since we're talking about a show called Lucifer , and when you said that , I immediately put my arms out , like that's what the actor does , like I don't think that's a mistake either it was a very clear sort of like Christ-like moment , and especially since he is sort of one of the few characters that we ever get you know who's
just just good and also then has that moment of a Christ-like symbol . That's really . I hadn't noticed that until like just until I did that just now .
Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , that's .
I'm not sure what's where to put that , but it occurred to me . That's a good question . I'm sure I'm sharing it with y'all .
So that was something that I thought was interesting also , in that Lucifer goes from like hey , let's get a gang war , going to immediately like get the kids out With his behind his back yeah , finger , yeah , and I should have . I wish I'd made a note of what happened immediately before .
He's just like oh yeah , get the kids out , because he really was like , yes , danger , gang war . This is exciting . And then I think Chloe says something to him like you do know , you're not helping , or something like that that he like gets out of himself for a minute .
She does , she says you know you're not helping .
Yeah , and I also appreciated it , like Ari . You've had your hero moment . Now stay out of the line of fire .
And he says , okay , yeah , and then Mays , your bartender , is a ninja . Of course she is . It's one of my favorite lines Mays is just so . Actually , let's talk about Mays for a second . Yes , because I think , like we knew that she was like a demon .
Like in the previous four episodes , we knew she was a demon , she followed him from hell , but like this episode makes really plain the amount , the degree to which she has a servant right , like where he says I know you'll always be there to protect me because that's what you were created for . And then she does .
I mean , she does it , you know , with a side of her ass . But she does and I think that's really like it's . It lays a foundation for the growth of Mays . That , I think , is really significant .
I mean even the moment where she's like creeping on Chloe sleeping in the chair at the end of this episode and you see her face , and you see her actual demon face in the mirror . Yeah , yeah . So but she doesn't hurt Chloe , right ? Which ?
So I think we're already starting to see her also changing because , based on the way she I mean she didn't I don't think she was meant to have killed any of the Gang members that she incapacitated- in that episode , but she didn't hesitate to break them collar bones and fracture tibias and whatever .
Like you know , lucifer's given us the play by play of what she's doing , and she's there while talking about being vulnerable . Chloe is asleep and ultimately leaves and does not interfere , and so I , and that's right after we've been shown that she exists to protect him and she feels it is her job to protect him , whether or not he sees the danger coming .
So I think that whole arc with Mays really plants the seed of her future story arc , which , again , like to your point at the beginning of our conversation , like show runners don't know if they're going to get a chance to explore that , and you know it's , I don't know it's .
For me , it really this episode really problematized Mays in a way that she hadn't been previously .
Like she was , like the way she kind of laughed at the identity theft you know who's doing things that were totally out of character , like she enjoyed Lucifer's embarrassment , in a way that that led me to believe they had a different sort of relationship than this episode makes clear , right so ?
I will say one of the things in terms of Mays changing is she is getting some agency , even though it's in a direction that we , as the audience , don't want to see , by meeting with a men-a-deal and saying , like you know , I want to go home and it's for his own good . And does she really believe that ? Or does she just want what she wants Right ?
and she's never been allowed to do before , which she's never been allowed to .
Yeah , like it's never been about what she wants , which they again . They say that explicitly later in the season and early season two is when she's like why , why is it never about me ?
Right , right , Well , throughout the I feel like throughout the series .
Yeah .
Like , yeah , I can't , I'm sure we'll get to it , but when she wants him to pour her a drink , yes .
Yeah , and so that's . I think there is this that kind of problematic . It's introduced here , but then it's also like subverted a little bit with these , and I can't remember which episode where she met with , with a men , a deal , if it was in . Man not so sweet kicks .
Yeah , I think it's in sweet kicks .
I think you're right . I think it is so that's watching to get them mixed up and actually actually sorry .
that scene where she meets with him in the coffee shop is where we first see the hint of what hell is , because she says all of these Look at them all on their laptops torturing themselves with dreams that they know won't come true , like so the idea that the that the souls in hell torture themselves is this .
That's the first time that that's kind of even hinted at , because previously she is a torturer . Like that's the whole point .
like so that's one thing I do want to bring up , how much another show that also started running in 2016 , the good place , feels like it is in conversation . Yeah , with Lucifer , agree , because hell in the good place is where you torture yourself basically .
Yeah , and that is very fascinating to me , that that's the two separate TV shows would come up with this , the same kind of just fundamental idea of what it is , what hell would be like .
Yes , I agree it's also . It's an old idea , right like the parable , the parable of the long spoons .
You can't reach for yourself and see if the other people so .
Hell and heaven are identical . You said . You sit around and there's plenty of food to eat , but there are only these , like long spoons . They're too long for you to use them for yourself . And in hell they're sitting around like trying to feed themselves and they can't . And heaven , exact same scene , but they're feeding each other .
Attributed to rabbi Chaim of Rome , ram Shashak . Rabbi Chaim of Ram Shashak , although it's been in other sources . So yeah , and anyway , I so anyway this idea that we , that we torture ourselves , either because of our lack of regard for one another in the parable , the long spoons or because of our own guilt and and .
Well , and it's interesting , if the , if that parable , I'd only heard the hell version of it , so I'd never like , oh , you didn't get them .
No the flip side is that heaven is exactly the same identical room , just we see one another .
But what's interesting is that , again , that gets to what this show is about . In listening to and and responding to others , yeah , and because as Lucifer grows , he , he learns to do that . He learns to to , yeah , not see humans as objects but , like we talked about last last episode , yeah , and recognizes that . You know , I feed you , you feed me .
Everybody's happy . Yeah , so yeah that's interesting .
It's a good place to wrap us up .
Yeah , yeah , I think so .
I've , I've , I've overthunk enough for now . That joke never gets old , never does get old .
There was an . I had another pet peeve in place and I can't remember what it was . I know what the pet peeve was . He puts his fingers in the blood and he tastes it .
Yeah , that is so gross , it's human . Surprisingly , I don't think they don't do that again , but yeah , that's , that's pretty gross .
That is so gross and like that's a thing that that happens , like in TV shows , like in my beloved X files . There's at least once we're we're Mulder like puts his fingers and I don't think he likes it , but he sniffs it . It's just like there's got to be a better way to turn it .
Sometimes you'll see on crime shows they'll be like cocaine and a little bit Yep cocaine .
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