Lucifer 102 & 103: "Lucifer, Stay, Good Devil" & "The Would-Be Prince of Darkness"

So for today's episode Em , we're going to talk about season one , episodes two and three , which are entitled "Lucifer , stay good devil . And the would be Prince of Darkness , number three . Yes , and you told me that you have . you have some thoughts . I have some things to say .

So on Twitter recently there was a conversation that I saw talking about how often you will see there's a pattern of TV shows that have pretty much all white cast or very , not particularly diverse cast , and then what the show runners do is they hire a whole heck of a lot of extras who are non-white , and so there are a lot of black extras and they kind of

it's just this set or step towards trying to be diverse without actually doing it . Now , lucifer does have a pretty diverse central cast . I think that they do a reasonably good job with that , but after having read that on Twitter , watching Lucifer stay good devil .

And then we'd already talked ahead of time about how kind of like the trilogy of the pilot needs to episodes is a little .

So watching , after having you and I discussing that and then having that thing that I read on Twitter in my head , i was watching , and the first scene when Lucifer shows up at Lux , all three of the extras he greets are black . Yes , so he . He gets out of his car and he says , hey , donald , or something like that , and and and the car .

Well , no , he shakes it hand , like shake hand , kind of like a hug .

Then , as he's walking through the club , he like makes eye contact and kind of does like a flirty smile at a woman who is black And then , while Chloe is taking pictures of him , he's shaking hands with with another man who honestly a little racially ambiguous but appeared to be black to me and it was not clear .

But , and then I started like writing down everyone I saw And there were , let's see , there was the Asian police officer at the front desk when he first goes to talk to Nick Hofmeister , and the doctor at Jimmy Barnes hospital at the end was a black woman . And I know that there's .

There's kind of a trope of like judges are always black women and a lot of like law and order type shows and things like that . That's . That's a that's a joke that I've heard before , specifically on 30 rock talking about that . But that was one of those things that what I saw on Twitter was saying once you see it , you can't unsee it .

I was like you're right . I can't see that . Yeah , and so I found that pretty interesting , particularly with this early on in Lucifer , and we have a men , a deal , who you know becomes a very , very important protagonist , but he is an antagonist .

Yes and maze , clearly fits that , fits that as a brand now , as of right now , and so and then , with the way that Lucifer responds to to rap , you know the suggestion that that Lucifer Morningstar would be a good hip hop name in that first episode . that's a little off . And so in these first few episodes tie Huntley .

in the third one , the , the quarterback , the star quarterback is possibly the only like just generally beneficial to the portrayal of someone who is non white . And and then we also get into Dan , Yeah , someone who's black .

There's no ambiguity , there's no racial ambiguity . Db Woodside is a dark skinned black man And so I think having him as an angel , who is a sympathetic character , i think that alone later in the series helps , you know , is an anti-racist and equitable move .

But at this stage , just the pilot in these two episodes that we're discussing today yeah , some really , and to be fair , friends , like when I watched it , especially because , like I got Emily introduced me to this show in 2019 .

So there were already four seasons when I started watching , so I binged it , which is what I think many of us either did or are doing now And , taken in the whole , like I didn't see this . It's on this rewatching and this overthinking that I'm seeing it .

Part of the reason I didn't see it is because of my white privilege right , it doesn't affect me in the same way And also because there are several black cast members , even like the doctor at the end that you mentioned of the pilot , like or , i'm sorry , of the second episode , like I did quietly make note of that , you know , but it's not if you don't have

, if you don't know the storyline , if you're just seeing the images , like it is not an all white screen , and so that is also part of it's a long way from friends in the 90s right , and that's part of why it didn't register as problematic on first watch . So I think that's interesting .

I also wanna talk about since in our last episode , when we talked about the pilot , we talked a lot about feminism and strong female characters .

I wanted to briefly talk about Allie , the murder victim in The Wooded Be a Prince of Darkness , because now we read you and I talked offline about the fact some of the contemporaneous reviews of Lucifer like ticked it for being a police procedural , which , whatever , i'm not gonna get into that it is .

And then there are others who like questioned the writing , which , in general , i actually think this is a very well written show . Yes , having said that , i'm gonna question the writing for a moment . Allie there's an implication that Lucifer got invested in the case because he felt responsible , because he had pushed Ty toward Allie .

I feel like that could have been even stronger and less and make Allie less of an object and less disposable , if there had been even a 45 second conversation between Lucifer and Allie . That was other than gosh , you're pretty , which is effectively in the much fancier voice , what he said to her .

And then about her , he said she's a short thing to Ty , and so if there had been even just a moment of him to make her laugh or her make him laugh or anything , even as much as what he had with the woman who at the beginning , in the very beginning of that episode , we think maybe he's trying to encourage her to commit suicide kill herself , but in fact

she's jumping into the pool . Even at would have been something to help both underscore why he was taking a personal interest in it , because he took some . There were some even momentary connection with the deceased , so it wasn't just about like ties , victim hood .

I feel like that could have really done a lot and it wouldn't have taken a lot , it wouldn't have taken like a whole , like long scene for that to just be tighter and slightly less misogynistic . So that was one thing that I wanted to like , especially after what we talked about in the first pilot , that I wanted to .

Like he got involved in Delilah's death in the pilot and it made sense because it was right there once you shot . He cared about her and he cared about her , but there was no reason for him to get involved . But they found a character driven way that made sense for all the characters .

It made complete sense for the character of Chloe for her to be investigating him and show up at his club .

I need to know more about this . So all of that was very , very well written , i agree , and very character driven , whereas the would be Prince of Darkness , like at that point , like we've established that he has some sort of connection with her and that he got her phone number . I actually on this watch when she answers the phone and it's him .

She's like how could that be him ? How did you get this number ? And Trixie gives this little smile . I'm like , oh , is that supposed to suggest Trixie ?

Yeah , that's true , that's literally doing that . And the thing that I appreciate about the show is that Lucifer does not see people's objects . Even if he doesn't see , doesn't connect with them , if you know what I mean .

Like and that's one of the big differences between Amenadiel and Lucifer Like Amenadiel is just like these are these little ants and nothing to do with me , and Lucifer is like , oh no , they're very interesting , look at all the desires they have , i love it .

And so he may not be able to see them as sentient creatures in the same way that he recognizes other celestials that way at the beginning . But there's still this weird tension And it might just be tension within my own head about like I'm uncomfortable with the idea of this club where there's half naked dancing women . What are we to do with that ?

It's interesting , Like at the annual conference that I go to every year this is probably about 2017 , 2018 , somewhere around there There was an offsite event at a bar where the women were dressed like the women dancing in Lucifer the bartenders not , they weren't dancers , they were bartenders dressed like that And the men were wearing slacks and a shirt And I was

like disgusted by this .

when the women were wearing at the bar , wearing about the same thing , I was like , well cause , Beyonce is dancing and that's an outfit for dancing , It's not one for slinging beer . And my friend was kept saying like well , I feel like you're not giving enough credit to the women . They could always get another job . I'm like , but what ?

He did , yes , when talking about her to tie , and it wasn't for his own sexual gratification , it was for somebody else's , but it was . He certainly treated Ally as an object prior to her death .

There's something the two go hand in hand And that is , i do believe , is absolutely missing , like I don't . Even later in the series when he gets super angry at Linda because she's not letting him go . Like he punches the wall . It's never directed at her , mm-hmm .

That is divorced from his characterization . But the objectification is not And that , but that it's really interesting to me sociologically how difficult a time it is I'm having divorcing those two things , Mm-hmm . I think that's really says something about the . The pattern and the logical consequences of the objectification is that it leads to violence and harm .

is so Disgusting to Lucifer about him .

That's really interesting , yeah .

I mean , i know it would have been a different actor , but imagine the same , the same piece of television , but Nick is played by a black man . Yeah , it changes the whole .

I mean , like the fact that the of the two sort of dung beetles that we're seeing , the one who actually has a conscience and is and is seeking redemption is the white one , mm-hmm , like it says something .

I think it would have been really interesting If there had been that history and the what I mean , even if Josh remained the actor that played him and remained a black man , like if both were black men . I think it would have really nuanced it in in more interesting and unexpected ways .

Mm-hmm , like this the white guy who's lived a shitty life and is seeking redemption and the black kid who didn't , hasn't you know , hasn't learned and is ultimately a psychopath . Yeah , he's just yeah . He's just a psychopath , he's a sociopath , yeah , yeah , like there's .

There's something sort of trite about the racialized identity of those two Mm-hmm , and I think that if , if we had substituted in a black man for the one seeking redemption , it would have brought in different things about his racialized identity , but the relationship and the fact that the one was seeking redemption and the other one wasn't , i don't know I well it .

And , yes , his brother is played by a black man , And that is something that they remark on for at least the first season , when people meet him like , this is my brother , and people will be like , really , Instead of it just being like , okay , he's your brother , You know they're . they're .

later on , in the second season , when Charlotte Richards is his mother and the actress playing Charlotte Richards is only four years older than than Tom .

Um , which is how it's treated , and that's that , again , is getting to . What are our assumptions coming into all of these , uh , these stories ?

Um , and these are the assumptions of , of , uh , like white show runners , um , and it wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact that only white show runners get together to be made Right , right , you know , this would be if , if this were just you know , like , oh , yeah , so we got you know this show and that show and the other show , and they're

all massively diverse .

And then , like we've got Joe Henderson and Maldimut Motovitch and they've got you know these two white folks as the leads , is like , okay , that would be no big deal , but that's how it is for every show on the lineup Right , Right , right , um , and again , not that the show runners do appear to be working to challenge their own biases as we see the show go

on Yeah .

You know , like with with my perfectionist tendencies and particularly when it comes to stuff that's very sensitive , like knowing , like you're going to screw up and it's okay because you're trying and you're going to get up and keep going again . Mm hmm , yeah , yeah .

So , whereas I don't feel like there's a clear a , a lesson in the would be Prince of Darkness , there's , there's not as clear a , like you know , this is what you can get gleaned from what happened . Yeah , and not that . You know , not that every show has to have , you know , a saps fable moral .

The title came from the , the identity thief who was parading as as Lucifer , and I actually think that in that story and in the way he ultimately does react , lucifer does and respond when he has the , when that moment , when he has the kid in Luxe and said anything , he says he's going to punish him and Mesa's like this is like you're punishing yourself And

like I think actually those words not the hot part , but something actually really There's a kernel of profundity , i think , in that , which also is a seed that has tendrils that go throughout the entire series , about him punishing himself or feeling the need to punish himself or somehow like not feeling good enough .

I mean that is like the central theme of season five . Be So I do . I mean I , i agree with you . There isn't as clear I like . So here's what you should understand from this kids , yeah , you know , as of an after school special , and also I do think there are still sort of seeds of profundity , like in there .

It's like you're punishing yourself and he was realizing that's what he's doing and he's realizing that you know he's taking the blame for it , but we don't see him feeling it . That's true , that's true , and that's part , yeah , part , of where I'm like you need a little little self reflection .

Maybe not self punishment , self legulation , but you did take part in what led to this woman's death .

We see him sort of pursuing the real killer harder than one would expect in this third episode or this third encounter . We don't see the feelings , which is not because Tom Ellis can't show it , because I think he's an amazing actor who has control of his face in ways that like damn It's amazing , but I think it .

Yeah , it wasn't quite there , but all of that said , i mean I love both episodes . I know , Like I don't want people to be left with a feeling that I'm like , yeah , that show is like I don't know , maybe a three and a half , like we wouldn't be taking time out of our schedule to overthink it if it weren't just like remarkable television .

The show is amazing , it's worth watching three and four and five times so that we can catch all of those little things and like overthink the casting and like notice and write down how many black extras there are .

But since then I've had , like certain things , kind of support , that first impression of the LAPD as being not super great . And so one of the things we've talked about how I think that the show runners are pretty much our age , in part because of the music that they choose , not for like the soundtrack , but for the characters to sing .

Chris Isaac .

And then I see that the writers do make some commentary , not all the time , but throughout they do make a little bit of commentary and they like they have like a corrupt cop is a major part of the of the season one arc , it's true , but then they hand wave that away with Dan for season two , which , like , i'm okay with because I love that character and I

love his redemption .

But I was one of the things that I was thinking about in the would be Prince of Darkness was at the end , when they , they like , go to get the , the actual murderer , to confess , they lie to him about Deborah , the ex-girlfriend's alibi , and I was thinking about that , about the fact that police are allowed to lie in in , and it's one of those things where ,

like in that case and in like , you can think of like , oh well , that makes sense that they're allowed to lie , but it's it's like the Shirley exception is like , oh well , they are outlawing abortion , but surely they'll ? they'll leave it a place for a woman who's who's would die without one . Surely there's an exception for for incest , and so that's .

Police are allowed to lie . Well , surely that's not going to be true in the case of you know whatever ? And I've heard stories of someone was was telling me about they went to see Obama speak outside of DC when he was running in 2008 and police were directing people to to these side streets where it said no parking .

Police said no , no , no , you're allowed to park there for now . Come back to their cars . And they'd all been towed because they were lying . I'm like , surely that can't be okay . Yeah , it is .

And so I kind of wrestling with the , with the propaganda aspect of Lucifer and the fact that police procedurals are such a common type of of entertainment to the point where that's why this show got greenlit .

Like , like , what Tracie ? you can't think of any other like vehicle for an episodic storytelling . Like it has become such a default . It's like it is the chassis on which we build everything which is really .

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