Welcome to the libido lounge where we focus on all things love, lust, and libido. We believe that fabulous sex is important to health as exercise and good food. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode on the lounge. I'm your host, doctor Diane, and I'm thrilled to introduce you to Tara and EJ Kerwin. They are relationship coaches. They are married couple, and this particular couple knows so much about something we've talked about on the show before, which is desire discrepancy.
What to do when you are in a relationship and your passion has maybe fallen to the wayside and one person has much more or less of a desire than another. So it's super common. It's something that I know I work with people all the time on, and I'm so excited to be introducing you to this couple today. So welcome to the show, you guys. Thank you for having us. It's cool to be here. It's so exciting to be here, and, also, I love this topic because, again, we operate a couple's counseling facility.
And I would say eighty percent of our couples come in with intimacy navigation. But a big piece of that is that higher desire, lower desire partner, and how do we get them trying trying to be on the same page so that they can have a satisfying sexual relationship, like, for them. Absolutely. Absolutely. I like what you said too. I think that one of the first things in my mind to help people understand is, like, this is normal. This is a common problem.
This is not, like, a weird thing that is, is so uncommon that people don't have strategies for how to deal with this. So in going down this topic, can you just kinda maybe set the framework for if somebody maybe is, like, kinda say a step before this? Like, maybe they haven't even identified that there is, say, a desire discrepancy, but maybe they've just seen that their passion has kinda fallen to the wayside or maybe it's creating some tension for them and their partner.
What's kind of, like, the beginning opening conversation around libido and passion and this topic that you would say, ask people to start with? I mean, I think the the first thing that we oftentimes see is is almost unrelated to to sexuality, and it's just frustration. I think that couples come in to see us, and their communication is breaking down, and they're frustrated with one another. And and there's just this overall, like, sort of, you know, just angsty feeling between the two of them.
In the background is oftentimes the fact that that their their intimate life has has gone offline. But because they don't have really a framework to talk about it and to to talk about it, especially in a healthy way, they've just sort of pushed it aside, and everything else has sort of become the main symptoms.
And I would say because kind of this model we developed is to really develop these healthy communication skills before we get to our intimacy piece, but we're always talking about intimacy throughout, you know, our journey with couples. And, usually, what you hear is couples don't talk about their sex life. They just don't. It used to be good, and and maybe now they have kids or, you know, they're going through, like, middle age and hormone stuff and but no one ever talked about it.
There was just this expectation that it would still be okay. And so we really try to help build the communication skills first and the emotional safety first before really diving into, each other's personal feel because it's very vulnerable to talk about that. And and trust me, we'll have couples come in and they're like, we just wanna all we wanna do is talk about why we're not having sex anymore.
And we're like, well, we got a whole model for this because you can't just talk about it in that way without having understanding of, certain skills you need to empathize with each other so you can have that compassionate conversation. Because at the end of the day, they both want the same thing. Because They wanna they wanna have a really great intimate relationship.
Well, and oftentimes, the way that they are talking about it is in really, like, sort of unhealthy poking, maybe using humor, but it's not really funny to the other person. So, like, Tara says, they're just not communicating about it in a healthy way whatsoever. And and I'm not sure, doctor Diane, if you've had this happen.
But so we have when we do start talking about higher desire, lower desire, we will have partners who literally, like, will get undressed in other rooms so their partner doesn't, like, see any skin so that they don't have to have that, like, feeling of overwhelm. Like, oh my gosh. I have like, we he wants to be intimate tonight or she wants to be intimate tonight. Like, they hide out from each other. And we're like, wow. That must be so, like, lonely in that place.
Like, you we find that most couples are very lonely in the intimacy realm personally. And so just being able to give them the safe space to talk about it, that's, like, the number I know you said, what's, like, the first point? Just having that safe space where they can actually, you know, say what they need to say in a in a way that won't feel judged or criticized. Yeah. I've seen that too.
Yeah. I've seen situations where people one partner will purposely go to bed, like, maybe fifteen, twenty minutes before they're ready because they wanna, like, make sure they're either asleep or they look like they're asleep before their partner comes in the room. So similar types of things. Right? Hiding. And Mhmm. I think you said is really important that I wanna go back to, which is that fundamentally, that oftentimes couples are, say, wanting the same thing.
And and I think about that when I think about desire mismatch. I often think about, like, okay. Well, what is the fundamental thing that partners want when it comes to desire? Well, probably breaks down on some levels to some things that overlap, like connection, love, care, and these feelings. So is that some of the things like, do you find when it comes to desire and libido and sexuality that it feels like, you know, couples think that they have this discrepancy as they might think.
Do you do you find that? I mean, I think that the that in the broad sense, they are connect they are, like, connected in what they want. You know? They wanna have a connected relationship. They wanna be able to communicate about things in healthy ways. They want to, on some level, meet each other's needs.
It's just that, you know, oftentimes, the needs are are just very different, you know, and and what it's gonna take to get them into an intimately connected relationship, oftentimes, is about broadening the definition of intimacy that it that it's that for one, it's it's much more physically based, and the other person, it's more emotionally based.
Right. And like Tara said, first, getting some of their just, like, basic communication skills cleaned up so that they can actually listen to one another so that they can get into what's a really, you know, nuanced conversation. Well and and we also because we know how, again, vulnerable this conversation can be and how alone they've probably been in their suffering around this for however long.
And so we really get their story about their own, like, knowledge of their body and what they learned about sex and from their parents. Like, we get a whole background, and now their partner gets to sit with them and hear. Like, oh, I really didn't learn anything, or I was told not to masturbate, that masturbation was bad. And we try to, like, understand all of the limiting beliefs they have around intimacy and their own body and pleasure and desire before even kind of right?
So that way we can understand where they're at and are they in a box. And then just that opens up this idea, like, my gosh. There's so much more to explore that we haven't even thought about. Like, we just were kind of in this box. And I feel like that really that's like a breath of fresh air when we start to kind of go down that road for couples because it's it's not about that they're not having sex. It's just about that they've never had, you know, this, what's the word I'm looking for?
Like, this narrative around, like, how do we have, like, amazing how do we really please each other? How do we satisfy each other? How do I satisfy myself? What do I like? What do you like? You know? So we do a lot of, like, exercises of having partners just focus on one that's one, and that's it, and putting safety containers in so it doesn't go farther than what the other partner might like.
I mean, there's a lot of different tools and interventions we do when we are helping a couple start off with, you know, kind of creating a whole new narrative for their for their intimate life. Yeah. I love it. And I wanna go back to something you said here a second ago, EJ, because you had said that that there is almost like broadening, right, the word of intimacy.
And so it's like that to me sounds like, oh, one of the steps we're talking about with kinda reprogramming the the relationship and reprogramming the the desire discrepancy, we could say. One of the steps could be breaking down kind of the misconceptions or the myths or the stories that we have about our sexuality. So, I hear in some of what you guys are both saying that, one, there's this kind of myth around or this misconception around what is intimacy. Let's broaden it. Mhmm. You know?
And then, Tara, I hear what you're saying almost fit into a different, say, myth or misconception around, like, okay. Well, we don't have to replay the sexual script. This we do x. We do y. We do b. We play out the same story. There's actually something beyond that, and it's we can make this safe to talk about.
So my question with all of that being said then is what beyond those couple things could we say are common myths or misconceptions that you maybe see with couples you work with around libido and sexuality? He or she is just not into me anymore. Right? Like, they just don't like me anymore. Like, they don't even want me to touch them or I have we haven't touched in forever. Just like this assumption that the partner is just not into them and have been sitting with that for some couples decades.
And I think one of the most destructive sort of myths is that, that if your intimacy breaks down, that there's something wrong with you, your relationship, your partner. You know, it it's this idea that, you know, and this has to do with just sort of our suffering in general is that we tend to always think, like, our suffering, I'm the only one.
Everybody else out there is having a great sex life or is very connected with their partner, because I see them at dinner parties, and they seem like they seem like they're having a hell of a time. And then and then, wow, we're we're just broken. You know?
And and just because we've seen so, you know, hundreds and hundreds of couples over the years, to us, we understand the fact that, yeah, it is absolutely not just normal, but but almost guaranteed that at some point, your intimate relationship with your partner is going to face some some struggles. And and if you believe you're the only one, that's a huge, huge wall to get over because then it's like, I don't wanna tell anybody that. You know?
Why would I ever wanna open up and get support around that? You know, it's it's just too vulnerable. And I have to, like one of the biggest ones I'm, like, sitting here, like, is while we have kids and kids kinda take priority, and so we've kind of both just put our intimate life in the background for now until the kids grow. And it's just one of the most destructive things you can do for your relationship because you always have to make your partner the priority no matter what.
Meaning, even if you do have when if you have kids, you're going out on your date nights at least once a week, even if it's just, like, removing yourself and going to another room for, like, an hour. And so not cultivating that relationship with your partner because the idea is that the kids take priority. Feel like that's a big myth. Absolutely. Yeah. So starting to come back to putting the relationship is like Yeah.
This is the top priority right beyond all else, and all the other things start falling into line from a standpoint of if we can keep this strong, then we become the foundation stronger to address all these other things in life. Right? Mhmm. I will say this too for women, I mean, me included, like, going through my forties and, like, totally feeling very different than I did in my twenties and thirties hormonally. Right?
Now I'm only having my menstrual cycle, like, once every four months, so I know it's all happening. And it just feels different and scary, and I'm so glad I can let EJ in on that process. Because if I didn't, he's gonna be assuming that I'm just like, oh, I just don't care anymore. But, no, it's just this. Like, I have to find out, like, how do I, you know, do all the healthy coping skills that I need to do to, like, make sure that I feel somewhat balanced and that we're spending time together.
And even if I don't have that desire in my body like I used to, talking about it at least makes me feel emotionally connected to EJ even if I don't have that, like, let's go. And just that keeps us connected even if we're, right, not engaging in physical sex all the time. It's having the conversation is especially for me going through all of my stuff right now, it's super important because I don't think he would know how alone in it I feel and how uncomfortable it is for me.
Like, I don't want this to happen. I mean, someone give me a pill. I I'd love to take it. Like, give me a shot of testosterone.
Like, please. When I and I just think that speaks to, like, how, like, complex it is and and that that, you know, the work that we've done because so much of the work we do with couples is, you know, comes out of not just research, and experience working with couples, but also our own personal relationship and knowing that, you know, getting through our intimacy and and working towards being more consistently intimately connected, there's, like, so many facets to to how that's happened.
And some of that some of it's, like, has nothing to do with sex and and intimacy. It's just, like, creating an environment where Tara feels, like, safe and and where we communicate in healthy ways about complex things, you know, that we had to, you know, go through all of that. And then building emotional safety for us is a big thing that, like, you know, that we both feel safe to be who we are.
And then and and then there's there's all these layers of like yeah, then then Tara's got to find a way to talk to me about stuff that you know in heterosexual relationships there is no way like I have zero idea like I have so little knowledge not just of, like, just the physiological stuff, but then her experience of it. Like, what what does it mean physically to go from a period every, you know, twenty eight, thirty days to every ninety days?
Like, we have to have, like, a real solid base of communication where she can find a way to help me understand that. Because if she's expecting me to just get that, it it's impossible, and then we're gonna be very separate in it. I'm and I'm gonna make up I'm gonna have my own assumptions like she said. I'm gonna think, like, of a hundred other reasons that things are the way they are other than than the way that she's actually feeling.
Well and when I'm hearing you talk, like and I see a lot of our couples that come in for couples counseling. It's just this feeling of powerlessness. Like, I'm powerless to this hormone. I wish I could inject into my eyeballs, like, whatever I need to. I'm powerless to it. And and if EJ and I didn't talk about it, he would feel powerless in his own way. Right? And now we're just we're on, like, separate islands, like, you know, maybe with a megaphone once in a while. Like, hey.
Can you but, you know, just separate. And so it's just trying to find the conversations to have so you can feel connected because we truly believe emotional intimacy is very connected to physical intimacy. And and we do we work with a lot of, like, couples on nonsexual affection because there are, you know, couples that come in as, like, all they want is sex. Like, I don't have just hug. One one person within that couple, most of the time, wants that.
So we kind of, right, introduce the idea of, like, nonsexual affection and maybe just kissing for the sake of kissing, but not going anywhere else and just hand holding, you know, when you're out at the store when you can't just, you know, get down and get naked. Little notes. You know, just find ways to express love that make you feel connected. Yeah. Yeah. I I like to say that foreplay is not the thing we do the five minutes before, the big things. Right?
It's, like, everything that happens in between. It's everything you're talking about. Like, the little note, the hand holding, all of that is actually foreplay, and I think it's really, unfortunately, just kind of this thing that we toss to the backside around. Like, that's not important, and it's it's actually, I think, one of the most important things. So I wanna wrap up with our time today, and then I'll tell people how to get ahold of you.
But I wanna wrap up with a final question because with you guys with, like, reading a little bit about your background and knowing that you guys have blended family, four kids, you work together. And I know, like, these are these are common things. Right? Well, whether or not couples are working together or have the blended family, have kids or don't have kids, but there's so many different ways that you guys are integrated into your life.
So my question for you, if you don't mind sharing something personal, is, like, what sort of, like, couple strategies have you guys found with how much you everything in your world is together? Right? Your work, your kids, your your entire life, right, is so blended. So what did you guys find at your top couple strategies to really make sure your relationship stays strong? Do you wanna go first?
Or Sure. I mean, we have to just be constantly connecting and talking even if it feels like there's nothing to talk about or or if it's, you know, just a matter of having a cup of coffee for, like, four minutes in the morning before the day launches. Like, to us, like, that that's the most important thing. You know? And and then I think for for for me personally, it's continuing to cultivate empathy for for Tara even if I'm not feeling that at all.
And I think that's a big thing that that couples struggle with is that, like, sometimes when we do inevitably face a lot of, like, really difficult things or we disagree or feeling, like, disconnected is just, like, in my head just being, like, this is the person I love. Even though I'm frustrated, I want to be as empathetic and caring as I as as I can be.
And that that that's, like because it's very easy to get caught into, in my just speaking personally, into my own repetitive thought patterns that pull me away from her. And so it's, like, so important to figure out ways to keep my my heart open even in the times where where I don't, when I wanna, like, close it off or I wanna, like, avoid. Well and can I just share?
So, like, on Saturday night, we always try to have, like we don't get to go out much because we have kids and, you know, they're with us every weekend, and we're, like, the sleepover house. Right? So all of the kids are at our house. But, like, on Saturday night, we always have these, like, deck of couples cards, and these were, like, the intimacy version. So we sat outside, had a glass of wine, probably asked each other, like, 15 different questions.
One had you, like, whispering in your partner's ear what you wanna do that it kind of, like, was some foreplay that maybe or maybe not we could get busy later depending on how late the kids go to bed from the sleepover. But it was just like it there was no pressure. We were just exploring these questions. And if it happened later, great. If it didn't, it didn't matter. We still had that hour outside by our pool, and it felt really nice.
And I will say the more that EJ and I communicate about anything and everything in a way that feels nonreactive. Right? We're just it it's like organically happens that your desire increases because instead of EJ getting defensive now because my sex drive is so low, he's like, what is that like for you, honey? Help me understand. And and I get to say, like, what's it like for you to be really attracted to me?
And, like, and, you know, seven out of 10 times, like, my frisky scale is freaking negative 10. We get to ask each other those questions where before we didn't. And so just EJ being more open and less reactive and and then me feeling safer about expressing my vulnerable feelings around what I'm going through, like, that has been, like, a game changer for us. And we have to model what we preach. So Yes. We have to do it all. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that that insight scoop.
I really what I hear in that too is, like, one, yes. I can I can see that and feel that, and all of that makes sense? And, two, even from, like, science perspective, like, we know from research, like, we generate oxytocin, which you guys are I'm sure are doing in those intimate poolside moments. And what's so interesting about oxytocin is we generate it, and then the body wants more of it and more of it and more of it.
So what you're saying around, like, oh, we do this, and then it makes things stronger. We want more of that, and that could lead to something that doesn't. But it it can actually even decrease the or not decrease, increase the desire even in just that. So thank you both so much for spending time with me today. We're gonna have everything about how to get in touch with you in the show notes.
But I know you guys wanted to mention your relationship renovation at home program, which looks, I checked it out online. It looks super accessible, super thorough. It's tons of time. Can you tell us a little bit about that, and then we'll leave that in the show notes for everybody? Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, we put it together because we had so much success at our in office programs where we wanted people to be able to do it at home.
And we know that people have a lot of challenges to getting to therapy sometimes. So, it's a it's a series of lessons. It has videos. It has, like, sort of behavioral prompts. If, like, you start the program and then two weeks have gone and you haven't you haven't logged in in a while where you get an email saying, like, hey, it's important to make your relationship a priority. It has lessons that you work with your, partner at home.
And then, we're really excited in the coming year, we're gonna be adding a layer of coaching in with it as well. So, you know because a lot of couples get like, what do we do right here? And we're like, yeah. The video probably isn't enough. So more and more people are asking for coaching. So we and we have a team of therapists that are trained in our relationship innovation model.
So we're gonna be able to offer online coaching sessions to help couples get through the at home for those who want it. Not everybody needs it. But, yeah, it's we kinda took our in office model and made it at home, and it's about four four months, I would say, because we try to not do it all at once. Like, you wanna see change and generalize it. So it's about a four to six months six month commitment, but it's really fun.
And, again, it's just like couples being curious about each other, trying to learn because they they come in, they're like, oh, we we know everything about each other. We're like, really? Do you? And, really, that was the aim, and a lot of people around the world have expressed how amazing it's been. So, yeah, we're grateful for that. It's so great to hear. It's so great to hear. Well, thank you both so much for spending time with me today. Thank you everybody for listening.
Again, we'll have all this information in the show notes as well as how to get this at home course off their website. And this is doctor Diane, your Libido Doc, signing off, reminding you to always stay classy, always stay sexy, and always be a little badass y. See you next time. Thank you for listening to the libido lounge. Please don't keep me a secret. Please share this with your friends. You can find me on YouTube, on Instagram, as well as how to work with me at mylibidodoc.com.