It is a practice of faith where you recognize there must be some meaning here. There's something important about this. When you can actually have that deep sense that, god, this is painful, but you can learn from it. You can you can grow from it. And it it takes time. Like any sort of recovery from trauma, inevitably, we blame ourselves when something bad happens, even if there's no moral sense we should be blaming ourselves.
Forgiveness is a really important first step, and I lay out three steps to forgiveness. The first step is The second step is And the third step, I have a funny name for, and you don't have to be religious to appreciate this step. I call it Good sex. I simply mean, simply, good sex is when it's not just sex. It's we have three levels. I have plain old sex, good sex, and sacred sex. Plain old sex simply requires couples need those moments of intimacy as much as they need stability.
Sacred sex, to get from good sex to sacred, it's really more about the vast majority of couples I work with. They're not having stability issues. More often, they're having intimacy issues. It's not something you can engineer. It's something you can lay the groundwork for. Hey, everybody. Quick break in our episode to talk to you about our sponsor, My Libido Doc. One of the things that we truly believe is that great sex is available to everyone, but we just have to learn how.
So head over to our site to get your free copy of our ebook, Five Steps to Mind Blowing Orgasms and Romance. Get the quick and easy tips to turn your sex life around, rev up your engines, and fall in deeper love and passion with yourself and your partner. So if you just go to mysexdoc.com, you will find that ebook there for download. Now back to our show. Hey, everybody. This is doctor Diane, your host of the Libido Lounge. I'm so excited about today's guest, doctor Bruce Chalmer.
We are getting into so many important topics today. One of the most important topics we're gonna talk about is forgiveness. And it's really cool to have doctor Bruce on the show with me because I know this is something that I have even spent a decent amount of time myself looking up on Wikipedia and other types of platforms like that. Like, is forgiveness and how do we define it?
And I think so many times, we get in our way of forgiveness, and we hold this energy, and we hold this frequency, and the anger, and all these things, simply because we don't understand it. And it not only damages ourselves, but it damages the re- the relationship. I know there's been things in my past that forgiveness has been a real challenge and a lot of personal energy working to, to actually forgive people in my life. So and I'm really, really excited to go into this conversation today.
So, Bruce, thank you so much for being here with me. Well, I'm delighted. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. I'd I'd it's funny to say I love to talk about forgiveness because it's it's a topic that involves all kinds of pain. You only need to forgive when you're in a lot of pain, but I do find it's an important thing to talk about. And let's define it.
And I think, like, defining, like, what is forgiveness, like Gay said, like, like, it's a challenging thing, and I think due to society, due to upbringing, due to religion, we have a lot Like, one of the things when I've researched this is there's a lot of different definitions out there of what people actually think forgiveness is. Yeah. So let's start with what is forgiveness? How are you defining it?
So, you know, if you boil them all down, I'm sure I'm oversimplifying, but if you boil them all down, there's basically two ways to define forgiveness, and there's the way I like and the way I don't. So I'll start with the way I don't. I say I don't like it, but it's a very common way of defining forgiveness. A lot of times when people say they'll forgive someone who's hurt them badly, what they mean is they'll restore the relationship.
If I forgive someone who's hurt me, okay, I can perhaps trust them again. We'll go back to where we were. You know, it's kind of like when people use the term forgiving a financial debt. To forgive the debt is saying, You know what? You don't owe me the money anymore. Let's just move on. That's one way of defining forgiveness. I don't like that way, And let me tell you the way I like.
The way I like is where forgivenessand I did not coin this phrase, but I love itforgiveness is an inside job, which is to say, I can forgive someone I don't trust at all. I can forgive someone I have absolutely no intention of restoring a relationship with. I can forgive somebody that I'm still going to sue or divorce or prosecute in court. I can forgive all kinds of people that don't, in any sort of moral sense, deserve forgiveness.
I can forgive people who have no remorse, who have no understanding of what they did. In that sense, forgiveness is all about that internal sense. I can get past the essential trauma. I cannot be obsessed with it. I can think about it, have some perspective on it, recognize, yeah, well, that happened. I wish it hadn't. Maybe I understand why it did, and maybe I didn't. Maybe I had a part of it, and maybe I didn't. But all of that I can have perspective on so I'm not freaking out.
And that's what I mean by forgiveness. And the reason I like that better than the other one is it's empowering because you recognize you're no longer at the mercy of someone else's attitudes or, you know, someone whether or not they apologize or whatever. You're not carrying around the hurt. And I would be remiss if I didn't quote Anne Lamott that so many people quote around forgiveness because it's a lovely quote. I'm sure I won't put the words exactly right.
But she said essentially, to not forgive is like drinking rat poison and waiting for the rat to die. And as I like to point out, yeah, once you get the poison out of you, then you can worry about the rat. You know, the rat might still be there or it might still be a rat. But if you got the poison out of you, you can think more clearly. You're not, you know, distracted by panic.
Yeah. I like that definition a lot because I think where people get stuck, and I know when I've looked this definition up where I was getting stuck, was thinking that it almost like says, okay, that behavior or that thing was okay. Right? And what you're saying is like, we're not, we're not saying that, Hey, whatever somebody did was maybe okay. Like, you could've been wrong, you could've been hurt, you could've been all these things.
And it's not saying their behavior is okay, it's saying you're changing your nervous system response to it so that you can live a healthier life and still deal or still say say navigate if you need to, if you need to keep a relationship with that person, still navigate in a way that your nervous system can, say, handle better. Correct? Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah. That's the sense, you know, if you think of it in terms of, processing trauma, to use this sort of trauma language, you know?
Yeah. It's like when you process the trauma, you're no longer freaking out whenever you think of it. Your brain has learned that the memory of the events is safe. The events weren't, but the memory is safe. And so you're not distracted by it if you get reminded of it, which of course you get reminded of things all the time, consciously or not. So in that sense, yes, that is exactly how I like to think about forgiveness. And it gives you, as I mentioned earlier, it empowers you.
It gives you the sense that, Okay, I could actually do something about this. Then you can figure out if you can rebuild trust with someone, if you want to maintain or if you need to maintain a relationship with someone. And that's a whole different set of issues. That's not an inside job. That involves both people. The forgiveness is a really important first step. And I lay out in that book you mentioned, I lay out three steps to forgiveness.
And of course, anytime anybody lays out three steps, you know it's partly baloney because that's not how life works. But having said that, yes, I have my three steps. And I'll just briefly say what they are. The first step is to forgive yourself because inevitably, we blame ourselves when something bad happens, even if there's no moral sense we should be blaming ourselves. It's a that's part of the survival mechanism. It's like, okay, gives me a sense I have some control even if I don't.
So I'm at to blame myself, so I need to forgive myself. The second step is forgive whoever hurts you. And that I claim is a fairly short step from forgiving myself, because if I've forgiven myself genuinely, if I've really gotten to the point of saying, you know what, I didn't know what I didn't know. I knew what I knew. I didn't know what I didn't know. I guess I was doing the best I could. I'm not evil or stupid or crazy.
I just kind of blew it, but that's what happens when you don't know enough, you know. I could apply that to the person who hurt me too. Again, I'm not trying to say there's no moral culpability. I'm just saying, well, I guess that's what they came up with. You know, bummer that they did, but that's what they came up with. They were doing the best they could do. I don't want be angry about it. Now I can figure out what do I want to do.
And the third step I have a funny name for, and you don't have to be religious to appreciate this step. I call it forgiving God. And what I simply mean by that is how could we live in this world where we have this this tantalizing sense that we're in control of things, which is largely an illusion? You know, we think we're controlling some stuff.
We do have influence, but shit happens, and we get hurt by it, and we need to forgive the fact that that's the case, sort of forgiving the universe for that. And I think that's a really important step too because then it's it it leads to a mindset that says, wow, this whole reality business is actually good to be what it is even if it's painful sometimes. And that's I call that mindset faith. Again, not necessarily religious. That's what heals.
That's what gets people to be able to deal with you know, to see the meaning in it and not just freak out and say, oh, we just wanna go back to how it was because how it was won't work. How it was is what got you into trouble. Yeah. It's really helpful.
And I think that I like the step three oftentimes too because it's so easy from a standpoint of losing, say, power within oneself to start, say, projecting and say, well, this is that fault of of God, the universe, that energy, whatever it is that that we that anybody believes in. And in doing that, we can lose some sense of power. So even by saying, like, forgiving on that level, like, energetically, the universe, God, at large, we begin to, like, put that power, I think, back into ourselves.
So I think it's a really important step that a lot of people haven't, talked about in this realm. So you bring up trust, and I think trust is a really important place to go next because, especially since you a lot of your work is with couples and relationships and that sort of thing and that is what we talk about on this show. But many times, if we're dealing with forgiveness and we're talking about forgiveness, there is a fundamental trust that probably has been broken and Oh, yeah. Right?
And that leads to so much feeling for so many people of not feeling safe in their relationships, maybe not feeling safe in themselves. And I don't think, like, it's news to anybody that this can be a big pivotal The loss of trust can be a big pivotal turning point that if people do wanna reconcile their relationship and this is not addressed, oftentimes it's a slippery slope downhill from here. Oh, yeah. So where do people go? Right?
So it's like, okay, taking the time to forgive oneself, forgive their partner, and it sounds like this is done through a lot of like self talk or like what is can actually before I go to the trust thing, let's take a step back. And like from the standpoint of forgiveness, how what is that process? I understand the three steps, but, like, if somebody's trying to take that first step to forgive themselves, what exactly are they doing there? Yeah. You know?
So here is my gross oversimplification of that, I'm sure, you know? Yeah. How do you how do you lead someone there? I don't have a simple formula that says, oh, you know, self talk. You know? Say these affirmations and everything will be fine. I I don't tend to think that's true. You know? I think the affirmation it's not that affirmations are bad, but the affirmations often follow from feeling better rather than the affirmations making you feel better.
You know, it's something of a bootstrap process, I suppose. I boil it back down to that one word faith that if you can actually practice, and it is a practice. It's not a knowledge you can learn. It's not something that, you know, it's not something you can simply repeat to yourself. It is a practice of faith where you recognize there must be some meaning here. There's something important about this. That's how you can get to that place of forgiveness.
You know, Viktor Frankl, his book on Man's Search for Meaning, where he here is he survived Auschwitz, One of very few people in the group of people he went with who did, and found meaning in that, in pure evil. It's not that he's he doesn't deny it's pure evil, but he was able to find meaning in that suffering.
That's the sense of faith I'm talking about, that when you can actually have that deep sense that, god, this is painful, but you can learn from it, you can grow from it, That's how you can get to that place of forgiveness. And it it takes time, like any sort of recovery from trauma. Just a quick break to let you know that eighty percent of women do not have orgasms from vaginal intercourse alone.
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And that's what you can get at the Hot and Modern Monogamy Club. So if you're interested in that and I can help you, please go to modernmonogamyclub.com. Now back to our show. Takes time. One of my I was trained. I did a lot of work before I did before I got sort of almost exclusively into couples many years ago. I did quite a bit of work working with trauma survivors. I'm trained in EMDR, and I'm trained in hypnosis.
And the work there, all the various therapies that work with trauma basically invites you to go there in your mind without freaking out. If you can actually go there without freaking the fuck out, that's basically what'll work. Yeah. Then you have a shot at your brain learning, oh, these memories are safe and you can recover from it. So the forgiveness process is certainly, from a therapy standpoint, is a lot about going to those places and what the therapist is providing.
I think more than any of our fancy techniques, what we're providing is faith. We're saying, wow, this whole thing is, it can be meaningful. You can learn from this. Know, I've had many people go through that sort of process. I've never had anybody say to their partner, hey, thanks for cheating. Haven't heard that one yet. I've heard lots of people say, in effect, thanks for precipitating that crisis, because we're so much better off now. Yeah. And that's what I mean by that sense of faith.
If you go in with that sense that, boy, this is painful, but I'll bet we can we can grow from it, that's what lets you get to that place of forgiveness, I think. Yeah. Go ahead. I was just gonna say it's so so well said. I mean, I think in oversimplifying things, it's really finding the silver lining. -ASHLEY: -Right? Which, like you said, through trauma, it's like finding a silver lining is it's a daily practice and a daily work when there's so much pain and there's so much hurt.
So, I I like that a lot. It's not as simple like, I love EMDR and some of those other therapy, know, types of therapies you mentioned. At the same time, like like you said, it's like all they're doing is they're bringing that processing to the prefrontal cortex where we have reasoning we can actually think and process these things without emotion. So we're still in many ways doing the same thing.
We're just it's just a different way of helping our brain find that that silver lining so we can begin to let go of the trauma. Mhmm. Yeah. Right? Absolutely. And, you know, rebuilding trust then is, first of all, it works a lot better if you can think clearly to see if you even want to try that with a partner.
And if you do, if you have good reason to want to do that, and of course, simply being a, say, a married couple or people who've been together a long time, especially if they have kids, they have enormous reason to wanna do that. Even if they decide to divorce, they have enormous reason to wanna be able to work together as parents. So that building of trust is a lot I'll put it in the contrapositive terms. Is that is that the nerdy word?
It can't happen if you haven't had some level of forgiveness because you're too distracted by panic. Even if you've forgiven, rebuilding trust then is about reaching a level of understanding sufficient to be able to say, wow, I can imagine a person that I rebuild trust with having done something that they did. I understand it enough.
I see where it came from, and I also see from them, and so to say this involves both people, I also see from them that they understand it enough that they have reason to be able to reassure me they wouldn't do it again, not because it's just, oh, no. We'll go back to how it was. That's nonsense, but because they've learned what they needed to learn. And they also often the trusting works both ways. It's really surprising.
You know, the the person who was cheated on, let's say, if it was kind of, you know, infidelity sort of situation, the person who's cheated on is often feeling, how can I trust this person not to cheat? The person who did the cheating, if they have gotten to that place of forgiving themselves, forgiving their partner, they need to trust their partner too.
Among other things, they need to trust that their partner won't keep hating them or won't keep you know, they most folks don't wanna be in a permanent, you know, permanent villain role or, you know, permanent probationer role where their partner is then their probation officer.
That's not usually how people wanna live, and so to get past that requires that both parties have this real sense of of, you know, that they're they're made whole again, and they can appreciate what they went through to get there.
Do you have in your process, like, anything because I I'm thinking about a situation, right, where somebody's cheated on, and I think a common thing that goes through in infidelity or in anything that's a major trauma is this a question of, well, do we actually want to continue together? Right? Mhmm. When because it's like there is a ton of work that goes into everything we're talking about here.
Like, where the the reparation on both sides, it can be pretty major and, you know, it can take weeks, months, and years even to to fully repair from this some of this stuff sometimes. So do you have a part of your process at all that helps individuals within the context of a couple actually go through and ask themselves questions or just do any sort of processing around what is the right step after this? Like, do I actually want to continue with this or do I wanna do something else?
How do you how do you guide people that way? Yeah. You know, there there are, of course, zillions of different approaches on this. Yeah. My favorite way, I don't tend to make that a binary question, certainly not early on. It's an implicit question right from the get go. They're wondering, well, okay, how's this gonna turn out? You know, what are we gonna decide to do? And I absolutely respect that from day one and also recognize that that is not it's often not a simple decision.
It's not a simple, well, obviously, we have to split up or, obviously, we, we're going to stay together. And so you have to one of my favorite little phrases my wife and I, you mentioned we do a podcast, and we've said, if people did a drinking game, every time I said the phrase tolerate the anxiety, they would be drunk by the end of the podcast. I say that a lot. It's about tolerating the anxiety.
Yeah. That sense that if you can sit with not knowing for a while and, you know, and I have such sympathy for people who can't they can't stand it, and I'm not I don't I'm not judgmental about that. I can well understand that. You know, the the only certainty you have available to you early on in in this or anytime in the process, the only thing you can be certain about is you can file for divorce in in all the states in in our country now. I think it's true.
Either party can file for divorce, and they don't have I I think they're pretty much all no fault now as far as I know. Maybe there is exceptions. But which is to say you don't have to concoct some sort of scheme proving a particular sort of, you know, abuse or infidelity or something like that. You can simply say, I want out, and you get to get out. And that at least gives you some sense of power. Well, okay. You can end it.
But if you don't wanna end it, you're gonna be stuck with some uncertainty for a as you go through the healing process. So I don't have a sort of black and white approach. Now, having said that, I want to mention with respect, there are folks who do, and I'm forgetting the particular buzzword that they use to describe this, But there are folks who will say, we're gonna meet for six weeks or whatever it is, and the focus will be solely on do you wanna continue the work, or do you wanna split up?
That will be the sole focus. And I, you know, I respect that. That doesn't I don't wanna work that way because it feels to me like it's making things too black and white when they need to be fuzzy for a while. But I don't know. That's not exactly a scientific argument, is it? So I respect that approach because that's not how I like to work.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's I mean, I think there's different lots of different types and ways for different couples, and that's what's amazing about the work of many in the world is that we get to choose the right thing for us, and the right approach for us in any, you know, any situation in life, or in relationship.
And, you know, this thing you're you're talking about around in talk, like, or tolerating the anxiety, I think is so important because I think it's it's like a rare thing in life that we're actually taught, like, especially like at a young age to tolerate discomfort. Yeah. And in a world where comfort is the thing that drives, is one of the key, I think, motivational drivers for people.
This thing of like being uncomfortable and being pain and being anxious is just there's so much of this tendency to just like, what do I have to do to get rid of it as fast as possible? Yeah. And that's natural. That's normal. I mean, I feel that too. But from a standpoint of fixing things and of choosing things and of having time to process things and making up decisions and not making decisions in that intense nervous system state, which is not always the best decision.
Yeah. You know, tolerating that is is really important. I wanna move us on since we, only have a certain amount of time today, although I feel like we could talk forever, to talk about one of the things you talk about also in your work is the difference between good sex and sacred sex. Yeah. So I wanted to talk about a little bit about that, especially since libido and sex is one of the things that comes up, you know, most from our listeners as well as far as what they wanna hear.
So can you differentiate though between both? Actually, I have three levels. I have plain old sex, good sex, and sacred sex. But what was the first one? Plain old sex. Oh, plain old. I think the title of the chapter was in my book, reigniting this far. The title of the chapter was sex, good sex, and sacred sex. But the sex, I mean plain old sex. What do I mean by plain old sex? Well, anything you think it is. Yeah. So if you think it's sex, it's sex.
Yeah. I'm not being really fussy about how I define that. It's whatever you think sex is. So obviously not just intercourse, not even just general stuff. I mean, it's whatever you think of sex, broadly or narrowly. Plain old sex simply requires that you more or less not be freaking out at the very prospect. Now, people who've gone through sexual trauma, which is, of course, unfortunately, very many people, that's an issue.
They need to recover from that to even be able to have plain old sex without it being horrible. So that's for plain old sex. You just need basically to not be in a state of panic. For that, it also helps to have some basic knowledge of anatomy and physiology, You know, what's where and what does what. That's basically anatomy and physiology. And for many people, and I'm sure not to mansplain to the woman in the conversation, but I guess for a lot of women, that's a particular issue.
It's like, what's down there, how's my body work? You know, usually men aren't unsure about what's down there and more or less how it works. Though I have to say, I wanna put in a plug for you. I think as we're recording this at your most recent one that dropped, which was with Matt Sturm. Yeah. Yeah. About, yeah, non ejaculatory orgasm, which I have often talked about with folks as well, and an incredibly important thing if men can manage to learn that. Anyway, all about that's plain old sex.
Good sex, I simply mean simply, good sex is when it's not just sex, it's intimate. And by intimate, I don't mean necessarily that it's quiet and romantic. It could be loud and, you know, very I'm shying away from the word violent, but, you know, rough or whatever, whatever people want. But it means you're present, when you're actually present in your body. I define intimacy pretty broadly as when you are present and honest with yourself and each other.
And to be that way and nobody's that way 20 fourseven. I am not always present with myself all the time. I'm distracted a lot. Damn, smartphones. You know? Whatever. There's all kinds of way life. Exactly. Yes. But those moments and one of the things I claim is that couples need those moments of intimacy as much as they need stability. That's another issue. But what were you so for good sex, you need to be actually present. And that's remember, we were talking about tolerating the anxiety.
That's a lot about that. That's a lot about being willing to say things to your partner that you're worried your partner is going to think weird, or fantasies, or to be able to talk about stuff, whether it's politically correct or not, and say, oh, this is a fantasy even if we don't actually enact it, that this turns me on, that kind of stuff conversation. So that's intimate sex, or good sex. I call that good sex.
Sacred sex, to get from good sex to sacred, it's really more about the sacred than it is about the sex. Now I I think you you had mentioned in that in that podcast that you heard about tantra. You know, you've you have probably more familiarity than I do. I mean, I've read what I've read. We've interviewed quite several people on our podcast who are really tantra folks. I love it. And it's all about that sense that the whatever the sex is, it isn't just about the couple anymore.
It's joining forces that are much bigger. And so that is something, as I say, much more about the sacred per se than it is about sex. Sex is just a good example. I think I mentioned in the book, you know, why sacred sex as opposed to, you know, sacred dish doing? And of course, some people would say, well, there is such a thing as sacred dish doing if you are present in that sense of sacred. It can be, but the forces of sex are so amenable. They're so awesome, literally. They're awe inspiring.
The first time anybody's had an orgasm, perhaps, if wasn't unpleasant, and I know there are trauma situations where that happens. But often, the first time someone has an orgasm, it's awe inspiring. It's like, oh my god. Where did this force come from? And that is very amenable to that sense of being joined with the universe in some much larger ways than just the two people involved or however many people involved. Yeah. I love it. Thank you for explaining that.
I I love how we can take concepts. Like, of my favorite things is like, what happens in the bedroom or wherever we're intimate is actually a reflection in many ways of what happens outside of the bedroom.
And, you know, it's like we can take basic things that there's a lot of research on, like meditation and mindfulness and these sorts of things that also in some sense, and in many sense when people get deeper and deeper with practices like that, are ways of connecting to the divine, ways of connecting to the feeling of awe and all that. And I say this because I've done like, I've done thirty six day meditation retreats. I've like gone very, very deep into the meditation world.
And one of my favorite things to say is like, I think sex is better than meditation. Right? When we're really in that sacred sex like type of thing you're talking about and we're connected to that all as something greater, and something cosmic, and beautiful, and we're a % present. Mhmm. You know, we're a % present in our body, and it's a it's a real big practice there. So, do you, in your work, do you help? And is this in your, your book on this?
Do you help couples or individuals, like, learn how to tap into these, you know, different types of sex and how to actually start exploring them? Yeah. You know, I suppose if I were gonna talk about what have I written about and what do I talk with folks about, I talk about the distinction. I don't, you know, I don't lead, like, workshops on how to how to get to that level of sacred sex. I mostly talk about more about the intimate part.
Yeah. So a lot of the work I do with couples yeah, the considerable majority, I was gonna say vast, I think that's true. The vast majority of couples I work with, they're not having stability issues. More often, they're having intimacy issues, And intimacy is all about that. So good sex is all about that. And we're often talking about both sex and intimacy more generally. And so I do talk a lot about ways to get there. Again, all about tolerating the anxiety.
I don't talk a lot about, okay, here are some practices that can invite you into that sacred mode other than the fact of saying, hey, read up on that stuff, or, you know but the more you get into I I do have a a sense, and I think this is true of peak experience in general, it's not something you can engineer. It's something you can lay the groundwork for so that you engage in practices. This is no different from daily prayer practices people have or daily meditation practices.
You might have the occasional experience of this astonishing unity with the divine or whatever you wanna say, but you can't make that happen in any given circumstance. You can simply get good at it, and then it can happen. And I think that's true of sacred sex as well. So it's know, I don't I don't, have I don't have workshops on tantra and stuff like that, but I I mention it to people. Beautiful. I love it. Well, I know we're about out of time today.
I wanna make sure we know that people know how to get ahold of you. I wanna make sure people know how to get your book and any other offerings, and your books, I should say. I just know there's, you know, your betrayal and forgiveness is the new one. And then, of course, I want everybody to know that we are also offering part two of this interview with doctor Bruce here. And so part two, we're talking about stability and intimacy.
These two forces that are almost almost seem kinda like, contradictory to people where it's like, okay, how can I feel safe? How can I feel stable in a partnership? And still how can I do all these things that cultivate that intimacy? And sometimes they almost feel like they're opposite things that are needed. Sometimes they're the same. At least that's my experience.
So I'm gonna talk to doctor Bruce about that more here in part two, so make sure you look in the show notes and then, so you can understand how to access that, coming out here soon. Okay. So let's, now tell us, doctor Bruce, tell us please how do people get ahold of you, do people get your book, All of those good. Yeah. Well, best bet is if you just go to BruceChalmer.com, b r u c e c h a l m e r, Bruce Chalmer Com, that has sort of links to whatever you might need.
That links to my practice if people are interested in actually working with me. I do all telehealth, so that's doable. I have also links there to my books. My books are widely available pretty much anywhere you can get I, you know, almost hate to do it, but I'll put in a plug for Amazon because that's the more people get on Amazon, the more people find out about it, and that's just kind of how it works these days. So if you go to Amazon.com, if you search for Doctor.
Bruce Chalmer, your Doctor. Bruce Chalmer, you will find all of my books there, including the book I wrote in 1986 on statistics, which is still available, which is kind of hilarious. That's another story. So you'll find links to that. And then, the podcast that my wife and I do, Couples Therapy in Seven Words, available on all the podcast platforms. You can search for that, or you can go to our podcast website, which is CTinseven. That's the numeral seven. CT in 7 Com. So how to find it.
And we'll have all of those links, everybody. We'll have all of that in the show notes from today's episode. So thank you everybody so much for tuning into this episode. Please, please, please do me a favor. Share this with your friends and family.
This topic on forgiveness, like, it's just such a big, big conversation that honestly, I think we've been figuring and trying to figure out as humans for centuries, for eons, how to do this, what it means, and I just think we can't get this information in enough people. So if you would please do me a favor and share this with friends and family and anybody you think that could could benefit from this information. And thank you so much, Bruce, for being here with me today.
Well, thanks for having me on. Everybody, we'll see you real soon for another episode on The Lounge. Take care. Thank you for listening to the Libido Lounge. Please don't keep me a secret. Please share this with your friends. You can find me on YouTube, on Instagram, as well as how to work with me at MyLibidoDoc.com