141 I Caveman Reflexes and Modern Relationships - Redefining Masculinity and Vulnerability

[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to Let's Not Sugar Coded. [SPEAKER_00]: Season 3 is here and we're excited to dive into the core of communication relationships and leadership. [SPEAKER_06]: We are hosts, Bella and Lee. [SPEAKER_06]: The husband and wife duo with the successful business helping couples and organizations get it together to play a bigger game and elevate the relationships and performance.

[SPEAKER_00]: We believe in keeping it real, so each week we'll bring you incredible guests, entrepreneurs sharing their authentic experiences, along with episodes featuring just the two of us tackling the tough topics. [SPEAKER_06]: So, if you're ready to enhance your connections and sharpen your leadership skills, you're in the right place, let's get started. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, welcome back to another episode of Let's Not Sugar Coded. [SPEAKER_00]: Today we have Pam Raider in the house.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's a return guest. [SPEAKER_00]: Woo-hoo! [SPEAKER_00]: She is a no-be-ass transformational coach, bestselling author and a founder of Shift Labs Inc. She's helped thousands break free from what's holding them back to create powerful, purpose of driven lives. [SPEAKER_00]: From surviving deep personal trauma to building thriving communities and businesses, Pam doesn't just talk transformation.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's been featured in Top Magazine's Documentaries and now she's here to share the real raw truth about what it really takes to heal, lead, and live like fully. [SPEAKER_00]: So welcome back. [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you so much for having me. [SPEAKER_05]: It's great to be here. [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm in the midst of transformation once again. [SPEAKER_05]: So it feels like perfect timing. [SPEAKER_00]: Lots of change since we first have you on the show.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have, [SPEAKER_00]: personal development coaching business. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's dive into that a little bit. [SPEAKER_00]: How has going through some of these traumatic experiences shifted the way you coach and you lead?

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's actually the reason I coach and lead is I have realized that [SPEAKER_05]: Since I was a child, I have had this, and maybe some would call it a gift, or just a point of view, a way of seeing the world, that I could always take life's grit and turn it into grace. [SPEAKER_05]: I could alcoholize it and say, who am I going to become because of this thing? [SPEAKER_05]: And then I felt this innate responsibility to share that, like, oh, I transformed something.

[SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to, you know, I came out the other side. [SPEAKER_05]: I'm an expanded version of myself in some way. [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I should share that with other people, and so that's just always kind of been in the background.

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know that I could have articulated that until maybe recent years, but what it has done for or how it's affected my coaching is that I am, I am unafraid to share, unabashedly, the embarrassing things in my life, the cringey moments, the grime that I've been through, [SPEAKER_05]: that you can come out the other side, expanded, and that someone else has been where they are, they can drop shame, they can find acceptance, and we can't shame ourselves into transformation.

[SPEAKER_05]: We can't bully ourselves into transformation, and that's something that, you know, there's a lot of transformational stuff. [SPEAKER_05]: You just gotta do this, and you just, and it's like, you know what, [SPEAKER_05]: Let's find compassion for that. [SPEAKER_05]: You're just human. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: And then with that compassion, what are we going to make it mean and how do we move forward? [SPEAKER_05]: And I've done it over and over again in my own life.

[SPEAKER_05]: I continue to do it in my own life. [SPEAKER_05]: And so I think there's an element of authenticity that people resonate with. [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like earlier we're talking about how [SPEAKER_00]: We were sharing our transformational journey and how we're in this space of coaching and leading and working together as a couple and how that has shifted and discovering myself and how I was showing up for myself and how I was conditioned and you were on the other end saying I'm done showing up not in that aspect where [SPEAKER_00]: I have nothing else to prove. [SPEAKER_00]: I am here. [SPEAKER_00]: This is who I am.

[SPEAKER_00]: Tell us a little bit about that. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so I was in a marriage for 17 years with my ex husband for 19 years and just this past winter. [SPEAKER_05]: He's very suddenly shockingly just ended the marriage. [SPEAKER_05]: There was no argument. [SPEAKER_05]: There was no fighting. [SPEAKER_05]: There was nothing leading up to it that seemed like it was a big thing.

[SPEAKER_05]: And then I found out shortly after that he'd been unfaithful for a much of those 19 years and I was I was quite, you know, shocked and I would be lying if I didn't say that I was somewhat devastated more so because of the surprise of him [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but it caused me to have to examine, you know, what was my role, my way of being because nothing happens in a vacuum. [SPEAKER_05]: It's easy to point the finger, but I was like, how did it get here?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: And I realized I saw pattern in myself of when I felt uncertain about things, then I would start to dominate and I would go into control and I would seek success and validation in other places. [SPEAKER_05]: So what had happened was early on in our marriage, there was an infidelity, and I thought we had worked through that, but there was something in me that never quite trusted and turns out rightfully so in that instance.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's not always the case, of course, but um and so I was overriding my intuition a lot and he was particularly good at love bombing and always baby girl, what can I do [SPEAKER_05]: And so it caused me not to look too closely at what he was doing, but I always had a sense that there was something not quite right. [SPEAKER_05]: So I saw it, solid ground in my business, business is.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I saw it achievement based esteem and other based esteem, having other people tell me that I was good. [SPEAKER_05]: Attribute based esteem where, you know, look at what I've done and here's I'm a good person, so I must be worthy. [SPEAKER_05]: But really underneath there, there was still some kind of deep-seated unworthiness because I felt this disconnection in my marriage.

[SPEAKER_05]: So when it all came apart, what it offered me the opportunity to do was to really look at that, and all the places that I had blinders on, and then the places that I sought certainty and built things out of a place of unworthiness instead of out of a place of just like actual desire and service. [SPEAKER_05]: That was revelatory to me because I would have told you that that wasn't the case.

[SPEAKER_05]: And it would have been true at the time as far as I knew, but I just sort of deconstructed myself. [SPEAKER_05]: I was like, well, there's I'm my kids are grown up now and they're out of the house. [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know anybody anything. [SPEAKER_05]: Like I just turned 54 this year. [SPEAKER_05]: I'm like, what's 54? [SPEAKER_05]: Do whatever I want. [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm like, so I'm breaking a lot of rules.

[SPEAKER_05]: I'm softening a lot and I'm looking at, what brings me joy? [SPEAKER_05]: What's enough? [SPEAKER_05]: Like I don't need to go chasing. [SPEAKER_05]: I was in the bro marketing world and chasing these numbers. [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm like, I don't actually need that. [SPEAKER_05]: I love helping people. [SPEAKER_05]: I love working one-on-one. [SPEAKER_05]: I love working in groups. [SPEAKER_05]: I love leading retreats, and I love working with my friends.

[SPEAKER_05]: So I've revamped my whole business to collaborate. [SPEAKER_05]: I'm doing less financially, a little bit scary, and I trust that if you're in alignment, everything works out. [SPEAKER_05]: And I feel a little bit like when I get worried about

[SPEAKER_05]: You know, it was easy when you're chasing dollars all or you can find them, but when you sit back and relax, it seems like the universe just gives you everything you need as it comes, but there's that moment where you're like, gosh, I should hustle, I should scramble and I find if you just, it's like that moment when you're like, could I hold my breath one second longer and as soon as you decide to do that, something comes through and I'm really learning to trust that, yeah, so to get back to how it's affecting my coaching as I'm also more able to.

[SPEAKER_05]: help people relax a little bit, not rush things, not be chasing, because most of us are chasing other people's dreams anyway. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can totally relate to that because when we had our breakdown in our marriage, I had to deconstruct myself to my whole entire life where I created this bubble of like utopia that I'm like, oh, we're untouchable, and then when things fell apart, [SPEAKER_00]: I had to look and I'm like, okay, what is my part in it?

[SPEAKER_00]: What am I going to take on? [SPEAKER_00]: What am I going to own? [SPEAKER_00]: What I'm just not going to touch because that's not my thing, too, because I had to take on a lot from all angles. [SPEAKER_00]: It was always my fault. [SPEAKER_00]: It was not just from, you know, from me. [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's, but yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: you know, bad, even children, you know, anything happens, everything was my fault.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I would try to please and be like, no, no, it's okay, you know, kind of under the rug, and then I had to, and it started diminishing my worth, myself, it's like, well, maybe I'm not as good of a mother, maybe I'm not as good of a wife, maybe I'm not as good of a daughter. [SPEAKER_00]: But then when everything kind of like broke, and then there was just silence, there's nothing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I literally relinquish all the control because again, when things aren't working, you know, we do tend to step into our masculine energy and we have been as women. [SPEAKER_00]: condition to be especially this generation, to be in our masculine of doing raw, raw, you know, that boss girl energy, I can do it all. [SPEAKER_00]: I can be social media. [SPEAKER_00]: I can be mother of the year. [SPEAKER_00]: My children are the best. [SPEAKER_00]: The smartest.

[SPEAKER_00]: I look the best. [SPEAKER_00]: Look at me. [SPEAKER_00]: My abs are ripped, you know, three months after the pregnancy, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And then we come to a place and we're like, whoa. [SPEAKER_00]: And we are that, you know, pushing and forcing and in our masculine energy and that's when the communication starts breaking down.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: I just realized that, you know, I had had to be in my masculine energy for so many years after surviving in abusive marriage and then even when raising my son through heroin addiction, he, you know, I was trying to control and that just became my survival strategy.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, so it honestly felt like somewhat of a relief to let it go, and then around all of that, just what you were saying about deconstructing and examining ourselves, there was a moment, so I started dating this very masculine man, he's a [SPEAKER_05]: uh, retired from rodeo now, but it was a rodeo cowboy in very masculine, but surprisingly emotionally intelligent and and I was asking me about my life, you know, and and I, he gave me some feedback on something and I said,

[SPEAKER_05]: He said, I hope you're not offended. [SPEAKER_05]: And I said, no, I love feedback. [SPEAKER_05]: Please give me the feedback. [SPEAKER_05]: I want to do that. [SPEAKER_05]: And I said, ask anyone that knows me. [SPEAKER_05]: Like I can sit in my shit, basically. [SPEAKER_05]: And it's fine, because I want to be committed to growth and everything. [SPEAKER_05]: And he got this smirk on his face. [SPEAKER_05]: And he's like, yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: And then you get to say that about your face. [SPEAKER_05]: Like one little line, so insightful, and I suddenly thought, what do I do in my life just so that I can say that about myself? [SPEAKER_05]: And that was massively... [SPEAKER_05]: transformational. [SPEAKER_05]: And I think if we all ask ourselves that question, we'd be surprised how much of the the stuff that we do is so we can say that about ourselves. [SPEAKER_05]: I'm a good mother. [SPEAKER_05]: I'm a good wife.

[SPEAKER_05]: I'm a good weather. [SPEAKER_05]: Like who cares? [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: At the end of the day, it's all made up. [SPEAKER_05]: It's someone else's construct of a good life. [SPEAKER_05]: All that really matters is that you feel aligned. [SPEAKER_05]: And ultimately, I think peaceful. [SPEAKER_05]: And, and that's it, everything else is something that we make up and that was so freeing and it all came from that one. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, then you get to say that.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I was like, yeah, exactly right. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but it was so true and such a big. [SPEAKER_05]: big revelations. [SPEAKER_05]: So I actually, as awful as it is and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, you know, divorces painful and all of that stuff, I'm actually on the other side in terms of, I'm so grateful to have this opportunity to rebuild my life and to revamp my businesses, to recalibrate, and to get to choose again, because 54-year-old me would not choose.

[SPEAKER_05]: not man is my husband. [SPEAKER_05]: This is a great lovely person all of that but I wouldn't. [SPEAKER_05]: This this version of me wouldn't choose him and I get to choose again. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: Like whoa. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: So I honestly can look at all of it with a lot of grace and gratitude. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think for me too, when I be constructed and then there was silence.

[SPEAKER_00]: I relinquish control, and then I stepped into that, I get to be you, whatever I want to mean. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have to pretend to be happy, pretend to like this, or do it for the greater good, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Because for cares, no one cares, no one cares, right? [SPEAKER_04]: It's the greater good, any? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's made up. [SPEAKER_00]: It is, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And then when I started, [SPEAKER_00]: kind of feeding into that and letting go of like okay we're not going to be in this house we're not going to be you know the same family.

[SPEAKER_00]: I started to like dream of things I wanted to do for me that I have never dreamt of because the constraint of what a family unit looks like what we should [SPEAKER_00]: I also say this was a blessing, because that opened you up from that avoidance to stepping and leaning into the discomfort of those conversations. [SPEAKER_06]: And situations and all of it, right? [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I think a common theme, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Here's that software and space, right?

[SPEAKER_06]: Because in order to know what you want, [SPEAKER_06]: because for a while, we were living in a lot of don't wants, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Because I think, especially in a longer term relationship, because you go through all the seasons, right? [SPEAKER_06]: You start off with these big goals and visions, because usually you're both starting from a place where you're building something together. [SPEAKER_06]: And so you have wants.

[SPEAKER_06]: A lot of those wants end up being material, right? [SPEAKER_05]: There are markers of that attribute base to steam. [SPEAKER_05]: I must be doing well because I have these things. [SPEAKER_06]: Right, which again is all based on a socialized right? [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Because then now we're comparing ourselves to what success is. [SPEAKER_06]: Right. [SPEAKER_06]: But then at some point we switch from playing to win to playing not to lose. [SPEAKER_06]: Right?

[SPEAKER_06]: We kind of acquire a certain amount of kind of a critical mass. [SPEAKER_06]: And it's like, okay, now our wants shift into don't want's, right? [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want to have these issues. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want this. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want that. [SPEAKER_06]: And then all of a sudden, that's where your focus goes. [SPEAKER_06]: And we forget about the I want's.

[SPEAKER_06]: And unfortunately, what happens because we're talking about earlier, how we're not taught how to communicate. [SPEAKER_06]: The context was externally with others, [SPEAKER_06]: It unfortunately takes a huge breakdown in a part of your life, sometimes it's relationships, sometimes it's health, sometimes it's financial for you to then look inwardly and say, okay, who am I? [SPEAKER_06]: Because in order to understand really what you want, you got to take a look at who you are.

[SPEAKER_06]: And not just understand the parts that you want everybody to know about, but the stuff that's underneath the carpet that's we say isn't like the dark corners roll the fireworks are, right then you like you don't want to look in there, but you got to, yep, right? [SPEAKER_06]: And that's where you start to learn honestly the most powerful parts of yourself. [SPEAKER_06]: And you come out of that with a lot more clarity.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, clarity, but also less suffering because pain is inevitable, right? [SPEAKER_05]: We're all going to experience pain and break down because as we were talking about everything's temporary. [SPEAKER_05]: And so we can say we're going to love someone forever, but stuff happens and there's nothing is forever. [SPEAKER_05]: but pain plus resistance equals suffering.

[SPEAKER_05]: So when it's like, I don't want there to be a breakdown, clinging to this, this shouldn't be happening or something should be happening, that's not happening. [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we already have one arrow from whatever pain we have and then we just take another arrow and stab it straight into us and we're responsible for that one.

[SPEAKER_05]: So the self-awareness of, [SPEAKER_05]: Like looking at our attachments, our versions, our delusions, the self-awareness of it really checking in with what's mine and what's not mine and the recognition of our responsibility for that. [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's what life is for. [SPEAKER_05]: If we're not using the breakdowns in our lives to become expanded in our self-awareness, [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, break-downs are the precipice of the beginning of a breakthrough.

[SPEAKER_06]: Big one can't exist, like a breakthrough can't exist without some form of breakdown. [SPEAKER_06]: Right? [SPEAKER_06]: You got to, is that the Navy seals, I think their motto is like, you got to embrace the suck. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And you very much need to do that. [SPEAKER_05]: There's some spiritual laws of transformation in the yogic teachings and the first one is seek the truth and the second one is be willing to come apart.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like if you're going to seek the truth, you get to let all your illusions come apart. [SPEAKER_05]: And so the things that you thought you wanted and here's a thing. [SPEAKER_05]: It's not a one-time deal, right? [SPEAKER_05]: No. [SPEAKER_05]: It's not even like an onion. [SPEAKER_05]: It's because that implies that there's a center and you ever get there. [SPEAKER_05]: it's never ending exploration, moving closer towards truth and alignment.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I think that the more we're willing to be self aware also, as we get more self aware, we can laugh at these things a little bit more quickly, I think. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: I think we get a little less. [SPEAKER_05]: The breakdowns are less injurious, like we find ourselves less [SPEAKER_05]: because we can see the meaning in the earlier.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then you can say, okay, this is my container in my head, that is all about, you know, loading, anger, happiness, and whatever, you can step into those containers, but you can also step us quickly as you step out. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I heard that somewhere on a podcast or somewhere, and I'm like, wow, that makes totally sense because we are in control of our, [SPEAKER_00]: mind. [SPEAKER_00]: So we're not mere observers.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like our body will feel certain ways because of how we feel, but our body is also not in control. [SPEAKER_00]: We are in control of how we want to spend our time and where in our head do we want to spend our time and where our energy wants to flow. [SPEAKER_00]: I have done bonita was when we were going through the spring done. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, lamenting, I'm like, I just got my house the way I want to know.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to get the voice [SPEAKER_00]: all the stuff he's left me and she's like, blah, like you're holding on to this thing. [SPEAKER_00]: But how do you know there's nothing better on the other side? [SPEAKER_00]: You're holding on to that extra pain and things and you're not expecting, you're not allowing space for something new to come in.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe something that aligns more where your energy flows and I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, because you don't see when you're in it, [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you don't see your blinds pause. [SPEAKER_05]: Well, and in your defense in that space, when some sense of certainty has been pulled out from under us, we're going to cling to something that feels like a sense of certainty. [SPEAKER_05]: And of course, a home, we feel like a sense of certainty.

[SPEAKER_05]: So it's almost a metaphor for familiar certain like this stability that we seek. [SPEAKER_05]: So I mean, also, of course, and no wonder [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: So, I mean, I think when you're when you've built a business and in a life around helping others, right, and you use, you know, a lot of your learnings from previous breakdowns and breakthroughs and applied, I think sometimes you can get to a place where people kind of look at you and you're just like, I got it all figured out. [SPEAKER_06]: And because you said earlier, it's a constant process.

[SPEAKER_06]: So what are not only doing kind of a transition in relationship, key relationship in your life, but you're also now doing a transition bit in business. [SPEAKER_06]: And so what are some patterns that maybe that you've observed, that maybe weren't aware to you, [SPEAKER_06]: You now see now and how is that kind of having you kind of enter into these transitions with a lot more power and velocity that you were feeling like weren't there before.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's a really great question. [SPEAKER_05]: So yes, the patterns were handing over my power to very expensive gurus for a long time in my life. [SPEAKER_05]: So I've trained with some of the world's greatest yoga teachers, thousands of hours of training with them. [SPEAKER_05]: Some of the world's greatest personal development facilitators that everyone knows.

[SPEAKER_05]: And then I probably have a $200,000 education in personal development in yoga teaching, spiritual teachings. [SPEAKER_05]: And I have abdicated a lot of, I suppose, responsibility for my happiness, my power outsourced it to these methods and these people. [SPEAKER_05]: And what I started to see earlier on was, there's a pattern and there's a universal truth that doesn't change and everyone's just got their facet of the diamond, but the universal truth is the same.

[SPEAKER_05]: So I saw that previously, but through this breakdown I realized, [SPEAKER_05]: sourcing my sense of wholeness to my ability to serve. [SPEAKER_05]: And so what this really opened up for me is, I don't need to do a fucking thing. [SPEAKER_05]: I can just be me. [SPEAKER_05]: And then who am I without needing to prove?

[SPEAKER_05]: So what I saw was the pattern of this continual proving, which was shame-based [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it goes back how many years, like 15 years old my first boyfriend was abusive to me. [SPEAKER_05]: And then that set off a pattern of terrible relationships, you know, and, and then with my son in addiction and all that, I didn't realize that there was still unearthed shame, and I had to prove that I was a good person, that I was a worthy person.

[SPEAKER_05]: I didn't see that a lot of the work I was doing was coming from that, but that's why it felt exhausting. [SPEAKER_05]: And now, [SPEAKER_05]: I'm committed to, I thought, what's really fun? [SPEAKER_05]: What's the greatest thing I love all the work I do, but what is it most fun? [SPEAKER_05]: It's most fun when I'm doing it with people that I love, with the dear friends that are all set out admire.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so I reached out to a girlfriend of mine that we used to own Shiauna, Shifpaarioga franchise and Sylvan Lake, and we started talking where, like, let's do the podcast together. [SPEAKER_05]: This is way more fun.

[SPEAKER_05]: And then this cowboy that I'm seeing said I'd like to do retreats and his degree in psychology and his work with Bob Proctor, he's got the skills to do it, but I was kind of like not just cowboy and I was like what and so we came up with this idea for grit and grace retreats because I'm running ill go retreats all over the world, but I was like

[SPEAKER_05]: four day translational retreats but fun horseback riding two step in campfires like let's do something different and all of a sudden I came back to life. [SPEAKER_05]: I felt so excited because these are things that are aligned with me building new things creating new things and doing it with people that I care about and I thought this is it this is and it's not tied into [SPEAKER_05]: this endeavor.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's like this is the formula for me to do things with people that I love that help people that I also enjoy and I can have all those things and I got nothing to prove. [SPEAKER_05]: So it revealed a pattern of proving and it allowed the space for me to come into. [SPEAKER_05]: If I don't have anything to prove, what do I want to do? [SPEAKER_05]: And so again, I'm very grateful for that.

[SPEAKER_06]: I really like that because I think that a lot of people, when they go through something that's tough, they can get to that place of, fuck it. [SPEAKER_06]: But that place is kind of processes like, you know what, I'm just not going to care where they [SPEAKER_06]: The decision to not care is coming from a place of care, right? [SPEAKER_06]: You're just going to avoid caring because you think you're going to make you feel better.

[SPEAKER_06]: But that's not what you're doing, right? [SPEAKER_06]: You're you're saying. [SPEAKER_06]: fuck it to something to the things that no longer serve me. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And you know what, maybe hasn't been in service of me for quite some time. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: But I realize it now and that's going to free up space almost like what we do with relationships sometimes, right?

[SPEAKER_06]: Sometimes you got to say no and give up the relationships in your life that are no longer in service and what you're trying to achieve. [SPEAKER_06]: to make room for the new relationships that are aligned. [SPEAKER_06]: And so it's like giving up the relationship that you have with proving and the shimmer on that and so on, to make space now for the things that really light you up. [SPEAKER_04]: Right?

[SPEAKER_06]: Because you're disconnected from, I need to do this because I have something to prove. [SPEAKER_06]: It's more just [SPEAKER_06]: I want to do this because of, I just want to. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and to give yourself permission to your desire, I think, especially, and I can't speak for men, but it's been my witnessing that women in particular are taught that who are you to want that, like your desires are not to be.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so I'm really learning to, like, [SPEAKER_05]: If there is a god or universe or whatever you want to call it creator, that those desires were planted there by that universal source. [SPEAKER_05]: And it would be sort of bratty of me not to try to nurture them and bring them forth. [SPEAKER_05]: But there is that conditioning in society. [SPEAKER_05]: I suppose even men too, it's like go look after your family, go do all the things.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's why I was kind of like maybe I shouldn't speak for it. [SPEAKER_05]: Just women but I've just noticed it in women in particular. [SPEAKER_05]: that we're taught to suppress our desires to be appropriate. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: And then being wildly inappropriate in many places in my life right now. [SPEAKER_05]: I would be better in the nurturing of my desires, and I love it, and I don't owe anyone an explanation for it.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: That's great. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: On behalf of, I'll say, most men. [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we're very much conditioned to protect and provide, you know, and not only protect and provide, but do so in such a way where you don't show any suffering.

[SPEAKER_06]: It's like this going to be hard and you're just going to take it on the chin because if you show any emotion outside of, you know, being happy laughter or, you know, if anger. [SPEAKER_06]: Then you must be, you know, less than yeah, you're weak or failing.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

[SPEAKER_06]: going those emotions and maybe that's wrong or not okay, you know, and so then a lot of men into becoming disassociated with those tougher emotions. [SPEAKER_06]: And so when, especially at home, things get tough, you know, men also overindulge in work, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Or some other form of stimulation, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe it's substance or whatever, but a lot of the times it's just work work work, [SPEAKER_06]: have of, protect and provide.

[SPEAKER_06]: And so if I just protect and provide everything and I don't complain, I don't show emotion, then I'm being homesposed to be, and things will be okay. [SPEAKER_06]: But then they don't become okay, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Then your significant others, all of a sudden, [SPEAKER_06]: You're always away. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't feel connected. [SPEAKER_06]: What's the problem? [SPEAKER_06]: And then they're going, what's the problem? [SPEAKER_05]: I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's right. [SPEAKER_06]: Then comes the insert conflict. [SPEAKER_06]: And that's why things don't work. [SPEAKER_06]: I think I know that a huge part of communication and a bracing vulnerability, all those things is a huge part of what men also need. [SPEAKER_06]: In the world [SPEAKER_06]: You know, growth and development, like I think the women are very good at coming together, right, and supporting each other. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we are. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we are.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're five. [SPEAKER_01]: We're five. [SPEAKER_06]: We're men, men are not, right, generally speaking. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And then now it's even at a point in I think it's society where it's almost like, can we even now? [SPEAKER_06]: Right. [SPEAKER_06]: Like, you know, when this movement of inequality, [SPEAKER_06]: are we allowed to actually get together and just be all about men and create a space that's all about men?

[SPEAKER_06]: I don't know, maybe maybe we'll be canceled because society knows all about women. [SPEAKER_06]: And so, right? [SPEAKER_05]: Well, this is, I've spoken about this quite a lot recently, is that I actually believe that the pendulum has swung too far, that there was this, you know, and there's such a backlash against toxic masculinity and in fact, it's mainly a lot of [SPEAKER_05]: Certainly that exists in the world. [SPEAKER_05]: I would never deny that.

[SPEAKER_05]: And though what I see is a lot of women who maybe don't want to look at their own stuff We'll just point the finger at this and so men are very afraid to even pipe up and ask for anything they want or say that they're unhappy or You know rock the boat in any way because they're going to be blamed shamed and Uncanceled [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that as a response, like, for me, as a voice in this community and our, you know, especially for, I don't know, I guess.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: But I really feel strongly, and I know I talked about this on my podcast. [SPEAKER_05]: I'm like, I'm going to get flack for this because if people are going to say I'm old fashioned or whatever, I'm like, there needs to be a little bit of a dropping [SPEAKER_05]: show up with their fears to ask for where they need to be nurtured, how they'd like to be appreciated, how they would like to be supported.

[SPEAKER_05]: And for us to hold space for that might look different than how our dad did it. [SPEAKER_05]: And that doesn't make you weak or any of those things. [SPEAKER_05]: I think there needs to be a new conversation around [SPEAKER_05]: you know, what masculinity is, and what that is within each individual relationship, because that can and should vary depends on this protect and provide.

[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so when you throw the Saber to Tiger over your shoulder and come in with the stick and you've done not like all right, but there's more than that we are social emotional beings men too. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, that's the big shift for our relationship was that, you know, now I feel.

[SPEAKER_00]: when something is up, because he still has this tendency to lock into work, like that's the big one for you is like I'm just going to throw myself in the work because I'm not feeling us like enough or you know whatever demons that you're dealing with at that particular moment. [SPEAKER_00]: And then you've stepped into leaned into that vulnerability and that softness and saying, actually, yeah, this is what I'm dealing with. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, okay, what is it about?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it worth this? [SPEAKER_00]: And then you'll be like, well, today, it's about not feeling like a good enough, like I'm feeling as a part. [SPEAKER_00]: And then we can have that conversation. [SPEAKER_00]: Versus before, you know, all is good, always fine. [SPEAKER_00]: Yet, you feel it, [SPEAKER_00]: like suppress and abort like you feel that inside.

[SPEAKER_05]: I love that you can have that conversation and then I like one of the things like if we could offer something to the listeners is that and then the tendency would be if the wife or partner is unfamiliar with that to try to fix it to feel safe like what can I do for you and though that would be the spot to take a breath hold your breath for one more second and ask [SPEAKER_05]: How do you want to be supported in this?

[SPEAKER_05]: Not what do you need because that implies that they're needing, like needing, how would you like to be supported and how do you like to be appreciated? [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think we ask each other those questions, nearly enough, no. [SPEAKER_06]: No. [SPEAKER_06]: And what we do, yeah, yeah, definitely now. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_06]: And when that question's asked, [SPEAKER_06]: take that extra breath to think about it, because our immediate response, again, talk about something, because we don't want to feel selfish, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And so then it's like, okay, well, what is it? [SPEAKER_06]: And it's okay to say, once you've actually processed it and say, I don't never say nothing because sometimes what you need in that moment is just to be heard.

[SPEAKER_06]: And so it happens sometimes [SPEAKER_06]: She'll ask that question, so I'm like that, Sarah, there's another one. [SPEAKER_06]: It was just like, like, what do you need and I'm just like, you know what? [SPEAKER_06]: I just need you to hear me. [SPEAKER_06]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_06]: Just let me kind of vent. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: You know about how I'm feeling about this situation. [SPEAKER_06]: And then, and I don't want you to try and fix it for me.

[SPEAKER_06]: And sometimes afterwards, it's like, [SPEAKER_06]: when I'm done my monologue. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Did you already solve your problem? [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: That's okay. [SPEAKER_06]: That's what I need to do, right? [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that one of the, we come with good intentions when either of us in a relationship tries to fix something. [SPEAKER_05]: Certainly. [SPEAKER_05]: But also underneath there, there's an insidious.

[SPEAKER_05]: Um, unworthyness driven behavior because we feel we get a dopamine hit when we rescue somebody. [SPEAKER_05]: So it's not really even about the other person. [SPEAKER_05]: It's my discomfort with your discomfort. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: So I've got to try and fix. [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but what I've learned is to acknowledge someone's emotion, but not necessarily the complaint. [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_05]: So to say, I hear that you're really frustrated right now.

[SPEAKER_05]: I feel that. [UNKNOWN]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_05]: But I don't have to say, totally, I get why you're, you know, mad at the kids or that, you know, whatever, because now we're jumping into the complaint with you and that's actually not helpful. [SPEAKER_05]: No, but to feet when you say, I need somebody to hear you, well, what if we just said, I can see how that would be really sad for you. [SPEAKER_05]: I could, I can feel it. [SPEAKER_05]: You're having a hard time with that.

[SPEAKER_05]: Wow. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: Like, that's being heard. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it has been a game changer for us in that space of communicating because what the biggest catalyst that started the breakdown of our marriage was the death of my father and him not being able to be there for me. [SPEAKER_00]: He saw me as like, I'm not breaking down in front of him. [SPEAKER_00]: He couldn't rescue me. [SPEAKER_00]: He couldn't save me.

[SPEAKER_00]: He couldn't save my father and then he couldn't save me. [SPEAKER_05]: There's an interesting study done. [SPEAKER_05]: I cannot cite the source of this. [SPEAKER_05]: I saw something about it years ago, but it stuck with me. [SPEAKER_05]: And they were talking about, there's this reflex that happens with men. [SPEAKER_05]: And it goes back to the age of the cavemen. [SPEAKER_05]: But it's a trigger in a man's brain. [SPEAKER_05]: It doesn't happen in a woman's brain.

[SPEAKER_05]: So if you come home, [SPEAKER_05]: and you see her unhappy. [SPEAKER_05]: That immediately triggers, I am an unsuccessful hunter who cannot take care of my drive. [SPEAKER_05]: And so men will tend to go, see, you know, if I think back to the caveman days, if you came home without a kill and it's winter time, then you would be ostracized from the tribe or your partner would have to go find another partner or everyone's going to starve.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so, [SPEAKER_05]: her looking worried is a triggers a biological reflex for you to be like, oh my gosh, I need to go do something. [SPEAKER_05]: And so men will tend to go to see if they feel unsuccessful because they come home to an unhappy person that they can't seem to rescue.

[SPEAKER_05]: they will become workaholics, alcoholics, whatever, anything, any kind of avoided, not all of those things, they will go to seek that dopamine head of, I'm successful at something outside of that. [SPEAKER_05]: And so it's a very interesting thing when we have a situation that's unfixable. [SPEAKER_05]: Again, it's a breakdown that we have to go like, okay, how can we come together here? [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's so great that you guys were able to do that.

[SPEAKER_05]: So many people wouldn't. [SPEAKER_06]: Good. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, to percent. [SPEAKER_06]: And it's not, I mean, it hasn't been easy, but it's been worth it. [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it is getting easier and I feel like our relationship is that much stronger and closer.

[SPEAKER_00]: The way we communicate, the way we solve problems, the way we work together, have never worked this way before, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, continuously checking out just you're doing the work. [SPEAKER_05]: You're also letting go of old ways. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: And that's something that so many people try to pile new. [SPEAKER_05]: communication and new things on top of their old pile of shit and they're not willing to relinquish.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but this is the way I was raised and it should be this way. [SPEAKER_05]: You got to let that stuff go and realize there's two people that come to the table with completely different backgrounds and maybe sort of throw it together and if you actually laid it all out, you'd be like, wow, both of our parents were actually kind of dumb and we should not.

[SPEAKER_05]: We should probably just take the really good things that are aligned with us and let's put those two things and those things in alignment here and let's create our own way. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Not only do you need to challenge like your own beliefs about yourself, both the things that you you believe are great about you because the action might not be.

[SPEAKER_06]: as well as challenge of things that you believe are not so green about you, because chances are those are also lies, right, that you make a addition to tell about yourself. [SPEAKER_06]: But then there's also an aspect of, if you find a lot of times, those lies, you tell yourself what you, those things that are not nice, if you pay attention, those are things that you kind of project out onto the other person as well.

[SPEAKER_06]: So when someone, when you're, you know, significant other is, you know, Mike, a little micro expression or a tone or, you know, where to set whatever it is, all of a sudden it's like, oh, they think that I'm this and that, right chances are. [SPEAKER_06]: Not only do they not believe that, the reason why that gets amplified and used because it's connected to a belief that you have about you, right? [SPEAKER_06]: But that's that scary corner.

[SPEAKER_06]: We don't want to look in it as much easier to go use. [SPEAKER_05]: I have a really easy way for people that they ask me, how do I feel worthy? [SPEAKER_05]: I'm like, look at what you judge. [SPEAKER_05]: Because anything, anytime you judge someone else, oh, they make me have someone to money, they're so this. [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you have a judgment about that. [SPEAKER_05]: So guess what, you're never going to allow yourself to be wealthy.

[SPEAKER_05]: OK, you don't think you deserve it, whatever. [SPEAKER_05]: Like, if you judge someone for the way they dress, or the way they talk, maybe someone's too ambitious or too exuberant or whatever.

[SPEAKER_05]: If you judge someone for that, [SPEAKER_05]: you're there's something in you and so if we want to heal it's actually very valuable to look at what we're what we're judging in others because it is everyone is a mirror everything is a mirror for us yeah and sometimes I don't like looking in the mirror I mean that was the hardest part better in the dark and now we have the you know lights around us amplifying everything yeah

[SPEAKER_00]: But it was, the looking in the mirror, acknowledging all my parts, acknowledging all the things that I told myself, that I, you know, but doesn't I say you free, though? [SPEAKER_05]: Oh my gosh, yes, I feel like we hang on to this identity that we create and cultivate and we tell people, but you know, like, then we get to see that about ourselves. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: And then when you move that out of the way, you get to be a little kid again.

[SPEAKER_05]: And you're just like, you get to create your life instead of just reacting to your life. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And then you get to then design the life you want. [SPEAKER_00]: So amazing. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, even like around our relationship, I mean, there are people and there's a parent in gossip around. [SPEAKER_00]: you know, our relationship. [SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, I love what people are gossiping about me.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I think it's like, then they think about me. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I think you're like, and I had this conversation with someone. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, oh, really. [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I think they were looking in for some sort of reaction to me. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, yeah, okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there are opinions and judgments really have zero effect on me and my life and my relationship. [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[SPEAKER_00]: What I do with my life, unless they're directly affecting me that I have to take action and be like, okay, let's work on whatever. [SPEAKER_00]: Really, the gossip, whatever, whether we should be together to really have zero bearing on my hour. [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I think that we waste a lot of our lives managing other people's perceptions of us.

[SPEAKER_05]: And the moment that you give any credence to that, you have just given, if your energy is represented metaphorically in gold coins, would you really spend it on that? [SPEAKER_05]: Or would you invest it in what's right here? [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, one of my, you know, be teachers bare about TC said, if you don't like criticism, also learn not to take the sweets.

[SPEAKER_05]: Because both are attachment to external, like outsourcing your sense of worth versus coming from like in form your out form from from out there or your informed from here and I love that because it helped me drop It has been very recently helping me really examine. [SPEAKER_05]: I thought I had dropped many for validation a long time ago and to some degree certainly, but I think that's also a never ending process.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and so just really checking in with yeah, like [SPEAKER_05]: somebody telling you you're great like it's just the same thing as somebody telling you you're not. [SPEAKER_05]: Really should hold no bearing on what I do or don't do in the world. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's yeah and that's exactly how I felt at that moment because before maybe before the break down with like you know it's been two and a half three years almost since we like.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think we're a grew since we grew up. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it would have affected me. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh my God, what are they saying? [SPEAKER_00]: But I had zero interest in finding out because I don't care. [SPEAKER_00]: I really have that. [SPEAKER_00]: that button is off.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, and most of the time when people are gossiping, they're repeating, it's like a game of telephone, they're adding their own whatever they inferred whatever, and it's not ever what was said or meant or whatever. [SPEAKER_05]: So even to give it any credence is being outformed. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And I always say never say never.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because you never know what's going to happen and how you're going to react and how you would totally stay in that situation. [SPEAKER_05]: We felt gossiped about other people in our lives. [SPEAKER_05]: Every one of us has. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: And we learn not to because we get caught up in it and it bites us in the ass sometime and then you go, I don't want to be that person. [SPEAKER_06]: Not a person in it.

[SPEAKER_06]: And I think that's part of the infinite game, which is the inner game. [SPEAKER_06]: It needs to be running the outer game. [SPEAKER_06]: But we love that. [SPEAKER_06]: But we're conditioned to have it the other way. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Where the outer game runs our inner game. [SPEAKER_06]: And then we become constantly reactive. [SPEAKER_06]: And isn't it insane to think that you would allow other people's reality of you, not your reality.

[SPEAKER_06]: But other people's reality of you, [SPEAKER_06]: to be driving, right? [SPEAKER_06]: What matters to you most? [SPEAKER_05]: To know how many coaches and like high profile coaches I work with that were like, you got to do this and you got to like in the game is this and you're not and you're disciplined, I had practices. [SPEAKER_05]: Let me tell you like I mean for years, I always had a meditation practice, gratitude practice.

[SPEAKER_05]: But then I had to add in, like, re-tend pages of a non-fiction book and do all of these, like, I'm later five and get up at five and I did all of those things. [SPEAKER_05]: And guess what? [SPEAKER_05]: My whole fucking life still came over there. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: And my business didn't grow that much from doing those things. [SPEAKER_05]: So what I had was discipline. [SPEAKER_05]: But what I did not have was devotion to what mattered to me.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so now I understand that I can have discipline for anything that I want to do. [SPEAKER_05]: I have discipline around what I eat and my exercise and the things that matter to me, telling people I love them. [SPEAKER_05]: I have discipline around those things. [SPEAKER_05]: And now I intend to live my life from devotion which comes from in here, not someone prescribing from out here. [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that that's a very different thing.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's like a devotion to what matters to me, what lights me up, what Tom creates more love in the world, what creates more joy in the world. [SPEAKER_05]: And that feels really great to me. [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that if people get even a little taste of tapping into that, [SPEAKER_05]: This like outforms I feel so cheap and empty and all of a sudden you're so good.

[SPEAKER_05]: If it's flipped on its head You're like, what was I just paid 12 grand for that coach to tell me that?

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah

[SPEAKER_06]: You know, we're talking about very much breakdowns and an aspect of like physicality. [SPEAKER_06]: Right. [SPEAKER_06]: You know, like something, physical relationship, finance, something breaking down in order for you to have that breakthrough. [SPEAKER_06]: People like, oh, okay, I got a lot of part of my life. [SPEAKER_06]: Go to shit. [SPEAKER_06]: In order for it to transform. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: No, not necessarily.

[SPEAKER_06]: No. [SPEAKER_06]: You can, like, what I hear is like, [SPEAKER_06]: if you get really aligned on what you want for your life, your vision, your dreams, because you can be very disciplined, but not quite clear on why you're being disciplined. [SPEAKER_06]: So you've got these gurus and people that, you know, they've done things like this form of discipline really help them achieve a result, but it's also because they knew what they were working towards.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And why? [SPEAKER_06]: If you don't, just doing a bunch of things very, very well, very disciplined, doesn't mean you're going to get anywhere. [SPEAKER_05]: It becomes another place to hide. [SPEAKER_06]: Right, because you can hide about, look at, look at what I'm doing. [SPEAKER_06]: Look at what I'm doing. [SPEAKER_05]: And I can see that I'm doing all these things. [SPEAKER_05]: Look at me, I'll put her on Instagram.

[SPEAKER_06]: I can't, look at the club, there's good enough. [SPEAKER_06]: You do. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh my god, and it makes me cringe now, but now you can do those things. [SPEAKER_06]: You do those things just so you can tell people that you do those things. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Look how I'm on the path to success because I'm doing these things.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, where if you really step into true possibility, which we say is the true form of possibility when you're trying to envision the life for yourself is you strip away all the constraints, all the limitations that you put on yourself. [SPEAKER_06]: Right, so I'm, I'm no longer thinking about, well, I'm also father, I'm a husband, right?

[SPEAKER_06]: So when I'm trying to imagine the life that I really would love to live, I got to, you know, I, no, that's too much constraint when I'm just, it, like, envision what's possible. [SPEAKER_06]: What is out all of that? [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, then afterwards you can start to take a look at, okay, what? [SPEAKER_06]: What's kind of a stretch, right? [SPEAKER_06]: That's not too far where I think all that'll never happen.

[SPEAKER_06]: But that still is a stretch because our psychologically our brains are really good at, we can say, oh, I really, really, really want to be a multimillionaire. [SPEAKER_06]: Like so bad out of a 10, can, well, what would it take to achieve that?

[SPEAKER_06]: And then you start thinking about all the discomfort who you need to become, [SPEAKER_06]: Right, the new identity you would need to take on do achieve that because the reason why you want to be a multi millionaires because you're not one now, right, so you need to be a different person, right, you have it's things all the way down has to be of your identity yet. [SPEAKER_06]: Right, and then death of the you.

[SPEAKER_06]: But then then what happens is like all that discomfort shows up and one of two things happen very quickly. [SPEAKER_06]: all of a sudden we lower expectations of what we want to achieve. [SPEAKER_06]: We choose a smaller dream, a smaller vision, play a little less, or we lie to ourselves about how far along we are and actually achieving it. [SPEAKER_06]: Either way, yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: We're not playing that infinite.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I think we've all done both of those things back and forth and back and forth. [SPEAKER_05]: And then there's a third thing though, and I would say that it's when we get to like, I've done both of those things certainly. [SPEAKER_05]: But it's say where I am now, it feels much more. [SPEAKER_05]: I've probably made my dreams a little bit smaller because I realize they weren't mine to begin with.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so what I'm doing right now is saying like do I do I feel peaceful every day? [SPEAKER_05]: Like everything is so that I can feel I want to be a multimillionaire so what so that you can feel secure so that you can provide for your family so that you can Whatever it's so that you can feel a certain way so what are the things that I do every day that make me feel that way already because right now is actually all we have all those future projections are fantasy.

[SPEAKER_05]: So how can I create [SPEAKER_05]: that sense if it's piece that I want, if it's love that I want, if it's a abundance that I want, then how do I create that today, right where I am? [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't think that that's diminishing or dreams, I think that's actually [SPEAKER_05]: amplifying them in the long run, and that's more of a spiritual practice than a business practice, you know?

[SPEAKER_06]: It sounds focusing on the experience, right, that you want to have out of life, because we associate money to identity versus associating it with, it's just a vehicle, right? [SPEAKER_06]: It is something that I leverage to create experiences in my life that, you know, I want to have, [SPEAKER_06]: And so a lot of the times we can start having those experiences, a lot sooner.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Then waiting until having acquired a certain... [SPEAKER_00]: I know I say, and never wait. [SPEAKER_00]: Waiting is for suckers. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I can see that. [SPEAKER_00]: Of course I can, so we're the hosts. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, because I, like, big awakening was when my dad died, he died three weeks before his 66th birthday. [SPEAKER_00]: So he retired and want and then he died.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: If he didn't live, my dad was not a big savor per se. [SPEAKER_00]: They had enough savings comfortable, but they lived. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when we immigrated here, it was like, we're going to drive and we drove all the way to Mexico, actually.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: But we did those experiences of living in the moment, not waiting for retirement or when I'm older, when the kids grow up, like we traveled more with our kids because the actual driver was, oh my god, when they're two, we're going to have to start paying for them. [SPEAKER_00]: And now it's going to be four times that is expensive. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Then so we traveled so much. [SPEAKER_00]: We never stopped.

[SPEAKER_00]: But that was our [SPEAKER_00]: now because the future is unpredictable and uncertain and it doesn't exist yet. [SPEAKER_05]: We're always living in the now. [SPEAKER_05]: So if we have the maybe someday I will be happier. [SPEAKER_05]: You will always live in a deficit and this is the thing I'm really getting to. [SPEAKER_05]: It's like right now like I don't know, you know, I may have to sell my family home.

[SPEAKER_05]: I have negotiated a deal where I don't have to do that for two [SPEAKER_05]: where my parents are on the other half of it. [SPEAKER_05]: And if I move them, they have to move it. [SPEAKER_05]: It sets off a nuclear bomb in our whole family. [SPEAKER_05]: And so, I was like, I'm really happy to be able to go and check on my parents every day. [SPEAKER_05]: And enjoy time with them. [SPEAKER_05]: My sons come to the property all the time.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I get great joy that they show up. [SPEAKER_05]: And they're like, Mom, we notice that training is be taken down in the yard. [SPEAKER_05]: We're gonna do that right now. [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm like, [SPEAKER_05]: Wow, like I feel abundantly cared for. [SPEAKER_05]: And I feel joyful at the connections that I have. [SPEAKER_05]: And my cowboy calls it my own little heart rate colony that I live in, and I'm like, oh my god, my god.

[SPEAKER_05]: But I have so much beauty around me right now. [SPEAKER_05]: And I could sit there and look at, oh my god, my husband left, and I'm financially, it's gonna be hard and blah, blah, blah, blah. [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm looking at the way that all my people showed up [SPEAKER_05]: joy, love, abundance, peace, beautiful meals, food, laughter, what more do you want in life?

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: We did that in Italy two years ago, but I do it every day in my house. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: We always, when we travel, people are like, oh, but you said to go home. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, actually, no. [SPEAKER_00]: Because I love where I live. [SPEAKER_00]: I love my life here. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: hear too anywhere. [SPEAKER_00]: I love everywhere I am.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right. [SPEAKER_00]: For us and for me, especially at the beginning of a relationship, he had a little bit more attachment to the things I would, I was never because I'm in Belekha, Gypsy. [SPEAKER_00]: So I attach to people, family, you know friends, and then experiences, like, you know, experiencing life to the fullest. [SPEAKER_00]: I could live on a, I told you [SPEAKER_00]: I could live on a beach in a hut. [SPEAKER_00]: I could make the drinks.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can teach them serve or vibes for a side. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: This like all the stuff that we acquired was more for you. [SPEAKER_00]: Things changed and when everything unraveled, you looked at, you know. [SPEAKER_00]: why you're doing what you were doing. [SPEAKER_00]: I look at why I was doing what we're doing. [SPEAKER_00]: And now we're just living. [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes proof that you're providing. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I was just going to say, right.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that goes back to, again, what we've learned is that psychological, you're example that you use where, you know, gone for the days living in a cave. [SPEAKER_06]: And being measured by the size of the Cali bring home. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, right. [SPEAKER_06]: And so, and like you said, if I were to come home back then, back to the cave, without anything, you would go seeking a new mate.

[SPEAKER_06]: And so that conditioning to protect and provide, right, there was very little conversation that we had in our relationship around, you know, what kind of house do you want? [SPEAKER_06]: What, what is enough, right? [SPEAKER_06]: And it was just, okay, [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, you, one, one a nice house, okay, bam, right? [SPEAKER_06]: But it's probably would like a nice car here, bought you, right?

[SPEAKER_06]: And it's all those things because these are like, I'm coming home with the, say for two tires, I'm coming home and help, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Here's this, here's that because that means then it's protecting and providing and I think my mind, right?

[SPEAKER_06]: A lot of men too, [SPEAKER_06]: The wife, but then I'm just thinking of this now, it's also a piece of protecting yourself totally right because you're protecting your identity your status you're like on the social like all of that because that is protection to yeah absolutely right and then yeah you know then all of that comes crumbling down yeah right and then you've got a then it's an opportunity and I think that's you know how you're taking a look at what's happening is that.

[SPEAKER_06]: You get what you focus on, right? [SPEAKER_06]: And so you can take a look at how devastating this is. [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm sure you've provided a couple of examples on that there are things that have happened that are happening that will have to happen, that can't that are devastating this suck. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: But you get to choose, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Whether you're going to put all your energy and focus on that or on the beautiful parts that still exist.

[SPEAKER_05]: Here's the thing. [SPEAKER_05]: You can't avoid it, like what we resist persist, what we embrace dissolves. [SPEAKER_05]: But I understand from having gone through so much, like transform so much grit in my life into something different is [SPEAKER_05]: that the town of freedom to get to the city of freedom, you have to drive through the town of suckville. [SPEAKER_05]: And you got to stop at the dirty gas station there and look in the mirror.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, hey too much for guys. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, your car breaks down unexpectedly like it, but on the other side of your willingness to travel there, that's where freedom lives. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: And if you keep avoiding [SPEAKER_05]: You never get to freedom, and suck will actually becomes your realities. [SPEAKER_05]: It's sort of like learning to say, I mean, it's with good and bad, but this two-shell pass.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so if it's going to pass, how do I make it meaningful? [SPEAKER_05]: Good and bad. [SPEAKER_06]: You know, if I'm going to relate, again, your metaphor, they're back to the process. [SPEAKER_06]: I think, like, there's information. [SPEAKER_06]: It was all home moments. [SPEAKER_06]: going through suckfill, getting to, you know, freedom town. [SPEAKER_06]: Once you're there, doesn't mean the journey's over.

[SPEAKER_06]: So I think a lot of the times we experience some form of a ha, transformations like, oh, I've arrived.

[SPEAKER_05]: How many people have you met that I'm going to one leadership convention and they come back in their complete douchebag because they Because now they know everything and they never arrived and I'm always like I just know anytime I thought I've arrived I get hit with a 2 by 4 so fuck off [SPEAKER_06]: So we talked earlier about, you know, what are some of those patterns that you have become aware of, right? [SPEAKER_06]: And some of them knew some of them.

[SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I thought I had dealt with those, but they showed up in other parts of my life. [SPEAKER_06]: What are some backstops that, you know, you're putting in place or have put in place to help make sure that those things don't. [SPEAKER_06]: go come back because again our our mind is not always our friend right and it has a tendency that when we become aware of things that need to change.

[SPEAKER_06]: Soon as we start to lose focus on them and has a way of those things creeping back into our life in in a very. [SPEAKER_06]: Ninja type wave don't even know it yet. [SPEAKER_05]: So the first backstop I put in place and here's how I do accountability is I speak out loud on my podcast to the public to wherever I'm I say what I'm doing because it holds me accountable. [SPEAKER_05]: And so one of the things that I have said is that I am no longer outsourcing.

[SPEAKER_05]: Um, my decisions to people that I have put on pedestals, and and the second thing that I have done as a back subset, really examined who I had around me and I have some very good friends around me, but I brought some very specific people into my inner circle right now.

[SPEAKER_05]: one in particular who is teaching me every day, more and more about self-compassion, and and people around, I've surrounded myself with the go-getters who can help me build this, and I just like they can move out to the nosebleed seats for a while because you know what, I was anxious, [SPEAKER_05]: I was overwhelmed. [SPEAKER_05]: I felt burnt out. [SPEAKER_05]: And sure, I was a boss babe, but the boss babe, she's like, she can take a hike. [SPEAKER_05]: I, you know what?

[SPEAKER_05]: I love decorating my house. [SPEAKER_05]: I like cooking and nurturing and nourishing my people. [SPEAKER_05]: I like [SPEAKER_05]: reading a book. [SPEAKER_05]: I don't need to be chasing something all the time. [SPEAKER_05]: So I have put people around me who are very supportive of this process and who [SPEAKER_05]: call me out in, like for instance, I booked a trip to Mexico in December.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I was like, well, that's then I said, I kind of thought, that's probably irresponsible. [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if it's the time we should. [SPEAKER_05]: I'd be doing on my businesses and blah, blah, blah, blah. [SPEAKER_05]: And I got a group of people around me backstopping me that are like, of course you should. [SPEAKER_05]: When else would you go? [SPEAKER_05]: And they're not being irresponsible.

[SPEAKER_05]: They're like, look at everything you've been through this year. [SPEAKER_05]: And the reset would be really great for you. [SPEAKER_05]: And you have worked hard to her life. [SPEAKER_05]: You deserve to do that. [SPEAKER_05]: I think that two things, declare what you want, declare to the people around you. [SPEAKER_05]: So now there's a level of accountability and two makes it real to you. [SPEAKER_05]: It makes it real.

[SPEAKER_05]: And then surround yourself with people that are actually not smoke blowers that are going to be like in. [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, people. [SPEAKER_05]: Surround yourself with people that are going to stand for you for your vision, even in times when it doesn't feel [SPEAKER_05]: Um, when it feels hard for you. [SPEAKER_05]: So those are the back stops that I tend to put in place. [SPEAKER_05]: I've always done that, but I think that I wasn't so clear on.

[SPEAKER_05]: I was moving closer and closer and closer to alignment, but I wasn't quite there. [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm still just currently moving closer to alignment. [SPEAKER_05]: So sometimes that requires a little shift in the people you put around you. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I do find sometimes with, um, like friends and the people, um, that you surround yourself with which is really important.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, [SPEAKER_00]: When you ask for those, I'm all about just tell me like what do you really think, kind of thing, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Because, like you said, blowing smoke out my ass, does not work, because I know you're blowing smoke out my ass. [SPEAKER_00]: But as a person, I know I can take it. [SPEAKER_00]: When you have friends that want to give it, but can't take it when they ask, how do you deal with that type of [SPEAKER_00]: Dynamics, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because, you know, people come to you with coaching, right? [SPEAKER_05]: That's one of those things where it's like, well, so that to me, that's a, that's a skill of creating the container.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so whenever we're going to, you know, it would just be, I, I'm also, I can receive feedback and I like, but I was, I'm in some very high flame coaching environments for two decades, you know, I'm just like, give it to me to me to, you know, like, which is ridiculous, really, but [SPEAKER_05]: But so what I have learned through because blunt force trauma works for me, yeah, doesn't work for everybody. [SPEAKER_05]: Guess what?

[SPEAKER_05]: I facilitated a lot of things learned that the hard way. [SPEAKER_05]: And so what I have learned is to create the container, meaning a set your highest intention to say.

[SPEAKER_05]: I have some feedback for you, and my intention is so that we can clear the space so that I can love you more generously, and we can deepen our friendship, so you set the intention and then it has to be blameless in terms of when you do or say this, the story I make up about it or how I feel about this and the result is this. [SPEAKER_05]: And here's the final piece.

[SPEAKER_05]: What would make me feel better is, if we don't add that repair, then we've just made a complaint and then what we've initiated is defensiveness. [SPEAKER_05]: So when we know how to create the container to deliver feedback in, because you and I can take blunt force trauma because we had it, but actually, it's probably our job to resensitize ourselves a little bit. [SPEAKER_05]: actually because when we get into the like, why can't they take it?

[SPEAKER_05]: They should toughen up and that's also not. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: I'm literally, you know, I've learned that's also not productive. [SPEAKER_05]: So how can I frame things in a way and it's not about blowing smoke be very clear of very kind. [SPEAKER_05]: People don't love to. [SPEAKER_05]: People don't love to tell the truth also because they're conditioned to be nice and it's [SPEAKER_05]: you know.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so I think that if we learn how to create a container, we can give and receive feedback in a way that everybody leaves healing and rich and supported, and then we don't fear feedback. [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's something that should be taught in school. [SPEAKER_00]: I think yeah, going on the school whole thing, we're we pulled our kids out of regular school in because [SPEAKER_00]: The anxiety level. [SPEAKER_00]: There's no feet like there's nothing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody's participation ribbon. [SPEAKER_00]: Everything is nice and kosher. [SPEAKER_00]: Don't rock the feathers. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you have anxiety no tests for you. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you have, you know, something. [SPEAKER_00]: It's okay. [SPEAKER_00]: We're catering to, you know, that feeling versus, hey, how do we deal with these emotions? [SPEAKER_00]: We just kind of shop them under [SPEAKER_00]: the rug and then everything else.

[SPEAKER_05]: So what we teach children when we do that is that when I have something wrong, AKA when I am a victim, that I get the attention that I want. [SPEAKER_05]: And so that perpetuates a pattern later in life and it also creates a deep sense of I'm incapable and people clearly see that I'm incapable and they're confirming that I'm incapable by removing the responsibility of taking the test.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I'm sure that there are instances when that is probably warranted or whatever, but like back, you know, the pendulum swings too far. [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: But it's, it's, I think it's very much, um, [SPEAKER_06]: being able to be hard on the problem with soft on people, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Because a lot of the times friction and relationships happen because there is a problem, right? [SPEAKER_06]: The thing that happened.

[SPEAKER_06]: And we associate the thing with the person and sort of deal with the thing when you do deal with the person and so it's hard hard, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Where it's like, no, we can deal with [SPEAKER_06]: The thing, maybe the thing is like, you know, when you said this, I felt that, right? [SPEAKER_06]: But doing it in a way that's just like we're both committed to our friendship and staying friends.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And when you can come from a place of that's win-win, then you can stand shoulder to shoulder and look at the issue. [SPEAKER_06]: How do we resolve this? [SPEAKER_06]: And it's not about getting someone to admit that, you know, they made you feel away. [SPEAKER_06]: It's just about creating and understanding between each other.

[SPEAKER_05]: One of the ways that I have learned to approach this and this was a big learning for me with my son going through addiction was the thing that caused all my suffering was not the fact that he was lying to me and stealing for me and all the things that addicts do. [SPEAKER_05]: It was the fact that I was making him wrong for it.

[SPEAKER_05]: Every time he did something, and then I told the story again, and I went over it in my head, I was perpetuating internal violence over and over and over again, making him wrong, I was keeping the offense alive. [SPEAKER_05]: And so one of the places that we can alleviate ourselves of a resentment, which is poisonous,

[SPEAKER_05]: In approaching things like that is to give up instead of saying when you said this it may need to feel this way like we you know to say I I need to apologize to you because I've been over here harboring resentment because I've been making you wrong for something and I haven't even given you a chance to give me an explanation or whatever I've been making you wrong can you forgive me for making you wrong because that's causing resentment and I don't want that in our relationship.

[SPEAKER_05]: You show up in a conversation like that, and I ain't got a conversation, you know? [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: And um, love that. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and many people aren't really willing to see that their wrong making is, but if you're making someone wrong for something in the past, you're in an argument with reality. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: They didn't think and the sky didn't fall.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: So either forgive or move on or have a conversation. [SPEAKER_05]: get the fuck over it. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: Like, and that's our responsibility. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that was the very first, like, when we did a landmark training. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: That was one of those things where, you know, had us go through an exercise where we had to sit in like that music, like come up with like that person.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever. [SPEAKER_00]: And you're sitting in that and they're like, I mean, what?

[SPEAKER_00]: you are creating this with that you they're the one here yeah you know and you're living in this so you're creating a poison you're acting them to yeah yeah and it's like and then you know one of the things I have to go and make a phone call and it's and have apologize yeah [SPEAKER_00]: for showing up and holding that resume and doing that kind of thing. [SPEAKER_00]: So this was like years and years and years ago.

[SPEAKER_00]: That really helped us like move through some difficult friendships and conversations. [SPEAKER_05]: But well, if you're not in hot that, if you want to get free from anxiety, we're talking about anxiety and kids. [SPEAKER_05]: Anxiety there's two kinds. [SPEAKER_05]: There's neurotic anxiety, like do I look fat in these pants? [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's wisdom anxiety. [SPEAKER_05]: But there's wisdom and anxiety which is, I'm either doing something I shouldn't be doing.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's not an alignment with me or I'm not doing something that I should be doing to bring me back into alignment. [SPEAKER_05]: And so I think that rather than succumbing to and acknowledging, don't we want to make your anxiety go away? [SPEAKER_05]: We can say, what is it trying to tell me right now? [SPEAKER_05]: What is it trying to tell me right now? [SPEAKER_05]: What am I doing that I shouldn't be doing? [SPEAKER_05]: Or what am I not doing that I should be doing?

[SPEAKER_05]: And what can I do to move myself closer to alignment, and then if we look at where we're harboring unforgiveness or resentment, we can just make a list of where I'm making people wrong. [SPEAKER_05]: Where am I holding a sword over people's head? [SPEAKER_05]: And how can I let go of that?

[SPEAKER_05]: And just how much more free would we be if we weren't thinking about how we're really great at looking outward at that other people as the cause of our discomfort in the [SPEAKER_05]: But it is never anyone else, it is never your circumstance, and it is never The economy It is always how you view it and that is exactly what we're just talking about this whole night. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah Okay, well That's a great conversation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for coming again and sharing your wisdom Always love Pam. [SPEAKER_00]: You know the whole I still say this if not [SPEAKER_00]: It's not now that when it's not, it's not you and you because of you and that really stuck. [SPEAKER_00]: So it was years ago, you know, I heard you say, I don't know if it was, I'd want like a event or whether it was on our podcast. [SPEAKER_00]: But that really made an impact on mine. [SPEAKER_00]: I so thank you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you're welcome. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So I use that with, you know, I use that with our kids. [SPEAKER_00]: I use that with us.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, right now is all we've got anything else like it and if you think that there's a future, it's made up, yeah, if you're living in the past you're not even here, so right now is all we've got so, you know, I think like move and breathe and create your life from like if this is it, what words do I want to speak if this is it, how do I want to feel if this is it, how would I like other people to feel around me, yeah,

[SPEAKER_05]: And if we lived our lives day to day like that, I think it's like putting beads on a string, of a necklace, and we start to build a really beautiful life in a long run that when you zoom out, you have many beautiful days. [SPEAKER_05]: Instead of hoping for that one beautiful day in the future. [SPEAKER_00]: So where can people find you? [SPEAKER_05]: Pam Raider.com, grit and grace retreats.ca. [SPEAKER_05]: You can follow me on Instagram.

[SPEAKER_05]: You can follow my podcast, Gritton Grace, which is it's pretty cool. [SPEAKER_05]: We have my friend Erin Payne and occasionally the cowboy rides in to give some down home western wisdom. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: And people are really responding well to the dynamic there, which is great. [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, check out all the cool things we got going on. [SPEAKER_05]: Awesome. [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you so much. [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for having me.

[SPEAKER_05]: Until next time. [UNKNOWN]: Bye. [SPEAKER_06]: We hope you enjoyed today's episode and gained valuable insights to elevate your life and business. [SPEAKER_00]: If you found value in our conversation, spread the lawn. [SPEAKER_00]: Share this episode with family and friends and let's grow this supportive community together. [SPEAKER_06]: And don't forget to like and follow us. [SPEAKER_06]: We can reach more amazing people just like you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Until next time, remember, let's not struggle coded. [SPEAKER_00]: Keep it real raw and unfiltered.