The difference between success or failure is the mere refusal to die. Matt Higgins, from basically a broke high school dropout selling flowers to co-founder of RSE Ventures, building a multi-billion dollar portfolio of over 100 global brands.
Harvard Business School that appeared on Shark Tank in the US and Dubai. There was a lot of dysfunction, cycle of abuse that I was born into. I started selling flowers on street corners when I was nine. Little boy taking care of his mom. By virtue of me dropping out at 16, I started using whatever assets I had to move quickly with jobs. And I get the offer of a lifetime. As I'm sitting in the office and around 10 o'clock, Angela, who worked in the office, said, your mom's on the phone.
By the time I had gotten to the hospital, she had died five minutes beforehand. Every bad thing that happens to me is an opportunity for exceptionalism. When I see really successful people, they do have the ability to absorb the wins and repel the losses. And when I had testicular cancer and it didn't kill I thought... Matt Higgins, from basically a broke high school dropout selling flowers to co-founder of RSE Ventures, building a multi-billion dollar portfolio.
of over a hundred global brands. He teaches at Harvard Business School that appeared on Shark Tank in the US and Dubai. Author, the bestseller, Burn the Boats. I mean, wow, what a turn, Matt. Take us back in time to your childhood. Well, first of all, it's great to be with you. Great to be with your audience. And I know your audience is dedicated to just transcendence and how to go to the next level. So that's a topic I love talking about in all its gritty detail.
The most important thing to know about me, and I always start here, is just my framework of growing up in abject poverty. And those words lose their meaning when you say it, but what does that mean? Grew up wondering what's for dinner, where dinner is coming from. Like a lot of people grew up in poverty, there was a lot of dysfunction, cycle of abuse that I was born into. My poor mom.
I had a horrendous childhood, which only became clearer later on in life. You don't understand these issues as a little kid. So everything about me was, how do I get dinner? How do I get out of poverty? Feeling like I don't belong here and where I grew up in. Queens, New York, and a little garden apartment, little shoebox. And it was a roach motel. I mean, just true squalor. And so I started selling flowers on street corners when I was nine. Little boy taking care of his mom.
kid knocking on your window at the street corner on mother's day and easter trying to sell you something and just all these like Hearts grab a lot of jobs, shoveling snow, whatever it would take. And at the same time, trying to take care of my mother, who, because we were so poor, had no services. She suffered with morbid obesity. She had a thyroid gland disorder. So she would get heavier and heavier.
And then at the same time, she was trying to make something of her life. She had a ferocious mind. And a couple of things intersected. My desperation. of truly hating my life and hating being the hero child of having to take care of your parents while trying to do the right thing. And then knowing that if I don't do something and take matters into my own hands, my mother was going to succumb to depression and to her illnesses.
First of all, it's fascinating because a lot of people will say certain words, but this is real for you. You know, I always laugh at some people in Silicon Valley. I call them broke millionaires. They feel broke, but they're not really broke. And everybody these days has to have like a hard life story. We've all been like, you can't be born on third base. I'm like, what's so wrong with third base? I would like to be born on third base. Everyone's got a story.
Yes, exactly. But also we're right before, I mean, as we record this, it's probably not when it's going to come out, but we're right before Thanksgiving and you actually have a beautiful story about Thanksgiving. Can you share that? It's funny that you said beautiful story and a mind. I don't know if I feel like it's beautiful, but I guess it telegraphs.
how i grew up so we were always struggling holidays were always a source of pain to be honest and melancholy because my mother wanted to turn it into something right like something to look forward to and some holidays we don't have a turkey or we don't have and so the catholic church even though we were terrible catholics would always come and i always remember this the knock on the door and the father and me
Like a little boy, you feel like you're going to go to like the God Police or something. Because I remember always standing behind my mom's dress and peering through the door and just always seeing this warm, nonjudgmental face that would just deliver a box of food. and how much relief that would bring my mother, who was also a bad Catholic. And so throughout my life, and I've had the pleasure, fast forward, this is a crazy story, but I've had two private audiences with the Pope.
And part of the reason I got involved was not because of doctrine, but because the Catholic Church has the longest supply lines. And as a little boy, I was on the receiving end of that supply line of people who's just dedicated their life to doing good things for people.
Those are my holidays. But a reason why I say I don't know if it's a joyful story, because it was a story of shame, mostly, growing up. We would take a bus. I didn't understand why we would do this, but we would take a bus over an hour away to actually, it was a Black Baptist church. And they would be so kind to me. I also have fond memories of Baptist churches. And we would collect a box of food and take the bus back. And as I got older, I was like, was there no church closer to home?
And my mother obviously was trying to hide, you know, best she could, you know, the situation we're in. So that's why I struggled. Like, is that a good story? Is that a sad story? Oh yeah. But that was my upbringing. But that's your story. So now continue because. That became so intentional about dropping out that I have, you know, this story is incredible. Yeah.
And I really tell this because I don't want people to be like, oh, you're the kid who made good. You know, you ran with a gang. I was like, no, that's actually not what I was. I was the sad, depressed kid who was parentified at an early age. A lot of people listening to this.
may know somebody who's a caregiver and not prepared, nor do they want to be in that situation. That was me. I also felt like there was a destiny about my life. And I also felt let down by society. Family members, they moved on. When someone steps up to take responsibility, everyone else is like, good, you deal with mom unable to take care of herself. So that's my reality. And it's complicated. But you were so young.
How at such a young age, you have some epiphany because I want to hear that too. I think it's so funny. I think about this, too, because I always want to keep myself honest. It doesn't do anybody any good if I put myself out there as being the Oracle, you know, knowing things so young. Honestly, it was the feeling.
of being disenfranchised and disenchantment. And what I mean by that is no power, disenfranchised and disenchanted with the system, school, support networks, family, everybody letting me down. And I was like a sweet little happy kid. But by the time I was around 10 years old, I was like, you know what? Nobody gives a shit. And the reality is this is going to end horribly. And so I need to sever.
with the reality of being a child, and I need to become an adult now. And it happened around 10. It was like an incident that I don't really go into, but when I realized the cavalry's not coming, and so that did cultivate. an extreme level of defiance and a feeling that I'm going to have to hack my way. You know, it's fine when your life no longer matches the reality of your peers.
They're going to school and having somewhat of a normal existence. And I'm sitting there standing on line on behalf of a ticket scalper so I could buy tickets to a concert all night. And then he's going to pay me for waiting. When the departure becomes so great, you realize there's no point leaning into the system's rules and you need to make your own. So I don't, absent...
My upbringing, I would have been that sweet little cherubic kid, you know, with little chubby cheeks. But it was that sense of being let down. The positive, it stoked a fierce level. of defiance and independence. And that birthed my epiphany. So my mom, when she left my dad...
She got her GED at a local college, and then she enrolled in Queens College. And she would take me to classes starting at a very young age, 10 years old or whatever it was. And I saw an ad in a newspaper, and it said that... you could deliver flyers for this local congressman and you can make eight dollars an hour and i think i was making 375 at mcdonald's eight dollars an hour
College students only. And I was like, what is it about a college student that's going to enable me to 2x my salary? And I became obsessed with the following. What if I were to drop out of high school on purpose like my mother did? because it's a product of abuse. What if I did it on purpose, took my GED at 16? Technically, there was a loophole back then. Anybody with a good enough GED score could go to any college in America, all the way up to Harvard.
That was probably what I say, noblesse oblige. We will let you come into college even though your life is a screw-up. Nobody ever probably used it, but I became so excited. I have a way out. I became giddy. And then we can get into this if you want to now. But when I started sharing with everybody this plan, I was met with equally fierce resistance.
Go there with me for a second. And I also want to hear about the last day in school. So I put language around this as I got older to try to explain the difference. But the reality is I was what I call an edge case.
I'm somebody who's working overnight at a deli. I'm doing all these things. I'm an edge case, not the base case that has some degree of a functioning family unit that can go to school. And when you're part of a bureaucracy, whether it be a school or a corporation, when you're an edge case or now. The rules don't work for you, right?
But when you consult people whose job it is to protect the status quo, like a guidance counselor, and when you come up with something that's designed for the edge case, they think you're out of your mind. And I remember talking to Mr. I kept getting picked up by the Truant police. Now this is ninth grade. And I would hang out at McDonald's.
I'd watch CNN, you know, the war in the Gulf at the time. Like, I was just doing my thing, buying time. And he was like, what's wrong with you? You're such a smart kid. What are you doing? I was like, no, I have a plan. I'm going to take my GED and I'm going to go to college at 16. I'm going to bypass this. I'm going to make a lot of money. And of course he was like, you're going to have a terrible stigma for the rest of your life.
this is before mark zuckerberg make dropping out of things cool and silicon valley bros you know able to walk away like back then you would get beaten up for being a loser So I burned the boats moment for which I wrote the book and stole the metaphor from Cortez and others was that it wasn't that I dropped out of high school. It was that I gave myself no other choice but to go through with dropping out of high school.
I didn't have the confidence to resist guidance counselors, police, and everybody else unless I had no other choice. And it would be tantalizing to turn around if I hadn't become such a castaway. And so my Burn the Boats moment was to fail every single class in high school. I've told this story before. It's true, except for typing, because typing seemed useful. And then I got left back over and over. And when you get left back, back at Cardozo High School.
And I still remember the sweet teacher, Mrs. Vega, who was always so empathetic and understood what I was doing implicitly. I would sit in the back of the room, put my head down the desk, and I would just go to sleep. And around me were the drug dealers with the beepers, and there were some kids who were pregnant.
And I put myself in that cohort. And then not only that, I started wearing a jacket and I let all the gang kids tag it. So I had tags all over my jacket. I was completely a manifestation of a kid that should be discarded. And that's how the system, they stopped treating me.
as trying to make me a base case, but actually treated me like an outcast and was waiting for the moment that I would drop out. Now, that's a lot to take on. And then when the moment came that I actually had to drop out of high school, anyone listening, when you make a bold decision that you're like,
What system am I operating on? It feels like a lot of adrenaline and momentum. When you drop out of school, you have to return your textbooks. I have no idea why I complied with this rule, but none other. This is also true. I feel a little bit bad for if he's out there somewhere hearing these interviews, but I went to my son.
class to see Mr. Rosenthal and I go to give him the textbook and the textbook is unopened and I'm like a little punk and he was like you know what's this it's my textbook it's my last day of high school I dropped out and he doesn't miss a beat and he said Higgins, what a waste. And he had a biting sense of humor, so I guess it was funny. The class starts cracking up, and I almost want to pass out. I'm so humiliated. And as I'm about to walk out, he says, Higgins, what a waste.
I'll see you at McDonald's. And I had worked at McDonald's and the kids would make fun of me because I used to scrape the gum underneath the tables, my little green uniform and stick chicken McNuggets stuffed in my pocket for the break and McRib sandwiches. As I walked out, I said, if you see me at McDonald's, it's because I own it.
And everyone was like, oh, you know. But the truth of the matter is, that was me trying to preserve my self-respect. I sat on the steps of Cordoza High School. I packed a butt back then. You packed butts. I don't know if you did anymore. And I spoke to Marlboro. And I really, this is true, I really sat there and I said,
you know, he's probably right. And it was such a hollow, desperate moment, which is funny. This is not a moment of transcendence or victory. This is a moment of utter, like, look what I have done. Like I have leveled my... This is real. This is real, like... I am a high school dropout with an eighth grade education. And I had started off as a kid who went to a special school and like all this kind of like, wow. And here's the other crazy thing. I never talk about this.
When you stood outside smoking cigarettes in Queens, you know, security guards would shoo you away and all that. But I was allowed to sit there now. I was emancipated, except it didn't feel very good. you know what i mean i had no structure now now i had no no bureaucracy on top of me nobody would chase me away i sat there smoking a cigarette and then i got picked my ass up off as those steps and i was like all right go to work and i remember With a GED, you have to take this GED program.
which I did like one day that I was like, I am not doing that. This is creating a feedback loop that is not healthy. And instead I would say aside, I would take it to test on standby. You could show up and take it. And I went to Springfield Gardens High School in Queens, New York. And I went, I waited in line one day. Within a week, I took the GED. And fast forward, got the score back, took the SATs for good measure anyway. And I got admitted to Queens College.
Now, this is the redemption story. Just like Gladiator and Maximus, I decided to return to the arena. And I went to the prom with the prettiest girl who would go with me. And I remember seeing Mr. Rosenthal, Dr. Baker. and Mrs. Vega. And the look was all different from their prism of perspective. Mrs. Vega, who was always so empathetic, was like, aw, sweet boy. You did good. And Mr. Rosenthal was begrudging respect. And so with one chest move.
Whatever judgment had been rendered toward me had turned to some form of admiration. And it's an important thing for everybody listening. If you're going to make a bull burn, the boats move. Also, I wrote the book. You're going to have to go it alone. If you depend on validation, when you have an epiphany like I did, and you depend on counseling from people who have no perspective, nobody could look into that dirty house and watch my mother crying through the night.
and what it would take for a little boy to deal with that pressure, of course their advice is going to be corrupted because you haven't shared with them what you're going through. They didn't know, actually, the level of pain I was in because I was wearing my Jordache jeans and using that flower money to cover it all up.
I learned so much from that one moment, which is why I'm kind of stuck there, because I always like to share with people, what does it take to do something so outrageously bold? But long story short, I went to my prom as a president of the debate team when I was 17 years old. This is so good. It's still raw, years later, still very raw. Well, I mean, I have your book here and I have it on Audible and I was crying when I heard this. So, hey, at least.
No, I appreciate that. That was the goal, just to make you cry. Thank you. I think just the way you took everything that you went through to literally catapult you. to law school and more and more and more and we're going to talk about them more and more because i want to make sure that's so clear because
I mean, I can't keep up with you, Mr. Matt. Like, you know, like we're in touch through LinkedIn. And every time I look at you, you're doing something else incredible again. Thank you. So take us with you a little bit because you somehow. see your mom, that gives you that energy to be able to go to college, go to law school. What happens, Matt? This 16 to 26 chapter is really important because I make this one move, I do get into college, but the reality is I am taking care of my parent.
who is deteriorating slowly in this little apartment alone with us. And I'm trying to have a normal life to have a girlfriend or whatever. And so it took me seven years to graduate college at night. ups and downs and not wanting to finish and how am i going to make it all work and but i'm still pushing most of what was propelling me forward was trying to square two
almost irreconcilable variables or mandates. One, preserve my psyche so later on I don't resent my mother for what I was put through, and at the same time do right by her. So I was like, wanting to be a hero? And again, I share this for anybody listening who's having conflicting emotions, right? I would do that, but at the same time, build a life for myself. So I was on the clock.
And I had this sense, like, I got to move so damn quickly. And because the one thing that happened to me by virtue of dropping out that I did not intend, nor how could you know this, right, was that what Warren Buffett talks about with compounding, how it's the most powerful financial principle in the world. applies equally to your career by virtue of me dropping out at 16 i started making these moves a lot quicker i started using
whatever assets I had to move quickly with jobs. And the most important one was communication. I could write. I was given that gift. And so I became a writer at a little local newspaper. But because my stories were compelling, I won all sorts of... press awards when I was 19 or 20. And I got nominated for a Pulitzer when I was 21. Things start happening. And then I end up getting a job with Mayor Giuliani.
the version 1.0, the part that we all remember fondly, not the second part, version 1.0 of Giuliani. And I ended up getting this job. And because I was on the clock, I would never accept being told to wait your turn. Because I was like, no, I'm on a mission. And so I actually quit Mayor Giuliani twice when I didn't get what I wanted. And I went and I started out and then they brought me back as Deputy Press Secretary.
And then they brought me back again as press secretary. And when that happened, I'll zoom in here. I go from 16 years old and making these moves and killing myself to. at 26 years old i'm still living with my mother in this apartment my life is still a total secret she has gotten worse and worse and now she's on an oxygen machine and she's just sitting in a chair all day long and i don't know how to get out because i don't have enough money
And I have this vision. If I can make enough money, I can get an apartment across the street. And I could finally have a girl over or just like a friend over. But I was like Clark Kent. I would close the door and change into my mask and my costume. And I would go back into this place. I get this call from the mayor's office at 26. Now, I'm in Fordham Law at this point at night. And going to law school is hard enough, but going to law school at night while you're taking care of a parent.
And working full time is hard enough. And I get the offer of a lifetime to be press secretary to the mayor of New York. I would be the youngest press secretary in history. But that's like a crazy job. And Giuliani was intense. And so.
But then I was like, how do I take this job? How do I do what I'm doing? But if I don't take this job now and this opportunity passes me over, it'll never come around again. And I learned at that moment, we don't get to choose our timing, right? We just have to do it.
But if I get this one job that's going to enable me to achieve everything, I would make $105,000 a year at the time. And so I take the job. And then that night, my mother was in pain and very sick. And she pleaded with me not to go to work. And I remember telling her, I was like, we have no money left. I cannot bring anybody over to Bayview. I have nothing. I need to go to work so I can get the check in two weeks. But if I get this check, mom, everything changes. So I go to work that day.
And then as I'm sitting in the office and around 10 o'clock, Angela, who worked in the office, said, your mom's on the phone. And I was like, oh, you're calling me already. Like, come on. And she's like, oh, you know, when you call an ambulance, they insist that you go to the hospital. I was like.
That's great. You called an ambulance. She's like, yeah. And I said, well, ask them where you're going. And she said, we're going to Long Island Jewish Hospital. I remember all the details. And I didn't think it was an emergency. I actually was.
excited that somebody else maybe would step in. I always wanted somebody to step in and relieve me of this. And then I left and I took my time. By the time I had gotten to the hospital, she had died five minutes beforehand. So I don't know the moral of that story. I share it for a few reasons.
One, I knew it was going to end this way. And I knew I only had a limited amount of time. And other people did not act like it was a crisis, but I trusted my instincts. I also knew that the only way I had any shot was to go ahead and... upend the rules and get there faster and then lastly i don't regret going to work that day because if i had not taken that job if i had not
done what i needed to do you then spend the rest of your life feeling resentful but more importantly blaming others right i'd be sitting here going oh my mother held me back and i actually think that's a lie nobody really holds us back at the end of the day and so
I know that's a heavy story, but that is what happened during those 10 years. She died that day. And the mayor was so kind. My mother always loved Queens College. It was the one place she felt happy. And he said to me, you know, is there anything I could do for you that would be helpful? I was like, you know what? if you could arrange for her casket to go through the campus, that would give her dignity. And so he arranged for like a motorcade. My brother came up to me at the wake and he's like,
Matthew, was mom a maid woman? Like she in the mafia? Like who the hell, who are these people? And Giuliani had arranged for her to get like a head of stage funeral. So it was a pretty, but anyway, that's fine. Very tragic beginning. I'm sorry to take this so heavy. No, it's beautiful. There's so many lessons in this. And I think, yes, life of resentment and victim mentality will never serve you. A lot of us do this with kids. A lot of us do this with...
parents, right? Like the last thing you want is to do them a favor and then feel like you're always in victim and resentment and never be present. We do that, right? So I love that story. I think it's just relevant for so many listening. Thank you for sharing because this gives me chills also in the book. But so Matt, after this, you land.
roles with the New York Jets. But even there, there are some hard moments, too. Like, it seems like you were basically having a lot of tests in your life, if I may say so. I always joke. I'm sure everyone feels the same way. Like I would love a clean shot on goal for once. You know what I mean? Like a straight path or even a little bit of a lotto ticket. Maybe not the big one, but like a scratch off, you know, but it didn't take any work.
And it all just worked out perfectly, but that's not how life goes. So people ask, zooming out, how does all the pieces fit together? How does somebody go from McDonald's? press to running an NFL team, all the things I've done. And the connective tissue was something, a question I would always ask myself, what is the highest and best use of Matt Higgins now?
What can I do now? What skills do I possess that I can leverage to move me closer to my ultimate ambition? So every job that came next was because I was leveraging a skill to keep moving me on this continuum toward what? Toward freedom. autonomy. The number one thing I crave and still crave and always want and protect is autonomy because it's the one thing I didn't have. My whole entire goal was to get there. And the reason I got to the New York Jets is because after 9-11,
I was running the redevelopment of the World Trade Center site. That made me an expert in land use. I know we just glossed over overseeing the rebuilding of 9-11, but that was my skill. And because of that, the New York Jets needed somebody to build a stadium.
And I was able to leverage the ability to do that and get that job. And so each of these jobs is because I was moving closer to something. And I say this to anybody listening who feels like you have to have it all figured out or the next job has to be the job.
The next job just has to move you due north in the general direction of your ambition. And you just need a thesis about like, all right, if I do this, right, I'm going to learn this and I'm going to go there. But it shouldn't be an excuse to prevent yourself from going ahead.
doing the next thing it should be a rational like uh continuum but i'll pause there but i had all these crazy jobs but when i was at the jets is when i was diagnosed with testicular cancer i assume that's what you're what you're talking about and then it worked out and i'm fine and i'm here now i'm alive I know. Because you somehow bypass all these tests and continue, which is incredible, because you never let that...
go into that victim mentality. I think Tom Bilyeu, which I just had on the show a few weeks ago, he says, if you want to be successful, don't ask what's the minimum I need to do. Ask what's the maximum I can bear. And I think there's... an element there and a pattern that i see just to stick with cancer for half a second as i think i love what you just said about the the victim i mean i i love tom by the way and i love the way he frames it for me it is
I do think that every bad thing that happens to me is an opportunity for exceptionalism. And when I had testicular cancer and it didn't kill me, I thought, you know, this disease hits one in 7,000 people. And of those 7,400, I geek out on statistics, 400 of them will die. Now, it has a very high survival rate. My version was the kind that wasn't going to kill me. So then I thought... Okay, out of all the people, those 7,000, what percentage of those people live below the poverty line?
What percentage of those people just went through a divorce? What percentage of those people have depression? Whatever. And when I took a step back, I was like, I'm probably one of the most equipped people to have testicular cancer. And then two, I thought.
In some ways, look how exceptional it makes me. I'm probably the only guy in the world with a GED and one testicle. And so I decided to own it. I have these dog tags to this day. It's a little crazy and a little crass. And it says, half the ball is twice the man. And that became my attitude about it. Like, you know what? What's more badass than surviving testicular cancer and losing a body part? And the point of that I tell that story is I really believe that...
Every crisis is an opportunity for exceptionalism, but also every crisis gives you an opportunity to extract something more valuable than what's taken from you. I can honestly say what was taken from me with testicular cancer, and even I've been on testosterone my whole life. I've had all sorts of physical complications from surviving it. But the window into the world of death.
was a tremendous gift. To get sideswiped but not killed was an opportunity for me to discover Buddhism, for me to discover being present. I'm not always great at it, but I learned so much at Sloan Kettering that I wouldn't trade that for a minute, even though I've had all
these circumstances. And that's not just hindsight bias or me just saying it. It really is true. So anyone out there going through something terrible, there is an opportunity to extract more value from it than it's being taken from you. But if you don't believe it, you'll never see it.
That is the irony of the whole situation. You first have to believe this is what I'm saying is true because those who were like, that's not true. What about this situation? I was like, well, you didn't believe it. If you believe that you would have figured out how to leverage it. And so I get through testicular cancer. I go on and I end up. progressing into more responsibility at the Jets. And I think what you just shared is
So, so important because I think it's also the muscle that you need to build in order to create extraordinary things. And many times that muscle is built when things are hard. Now, you somehow managed to... have meetings with multiple presidents. You have a list of quotes on your book, including Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jay Shetty and Mark Cuban. How do you get? And this is the book.
Burn the Boats for those who are looking at. How do you get to such personalities? What is your trick, I guess? Because I think a lot of people are very intrigued by how do you open opportunities for yourself? I think the number one is to be intentional. I was amazed going through the book process about how people think that the mere act of the book is writing a book. Like I wrote a book. I'm like, well, anybody could write a book, but can you get somebody to read your book?
So I always say, I didn't write a book. I engineered an outcome. And I worked backwards from the outcome. I said, what outcome do I want? The outcome I want is for somebody out there who feels unsupported to feel that if Matt did it, maybe I could do it.
And the only way I can make them feel that is if I share cringy details, including the story I just told you or how I had imposter syndrome by going on Shark Tank. My book is an exercise in engineering and outcome of making somebody out there in the world feel connected. to me, that's really hard to do as a white middle-aged man in our balkanized society. What do I have to learn from you? I'm part of a different group or a minority group or a different economic class.
And my purpose in showing all these moments was for somebody to cross that divide and meet me here. Like, hey, look, I was taking care of my mom. I'm like you. I grew up on government cheese. I was ashamed. I had imposter syndrome. And so the point is.
When you're intentional and you set your objective, like I did with the book, you work backwards from it. So the back cover, I remember when I was talking to the publisher, and the publisher is very nice, but they do nothing to help you sell your book, is the reality.
Other than give you the nice imprimatur and make you feel good with your little ego. And so I was like, oh, well, what about quotes? You know, which quotes I should get? And it was like, oh, you can get some people, you know, and it's fine. I was like, no, no, the cover is about conversion. This is the bottom of the funnel, right? People are now in the bookstore. What quotes are going to resonate? So the truth of the matter is the quotes on the book are designed to convert you.
And I decided to take somebody from each area. And so I was like, all right, number one is Arnold Schwarzenegger. I don't know Arnold Schwarzenegger. So I was like. How do I? But I've met his son before, who's a sweetheart. And I said, look, Arnold has an incredible video on YouTube. And it was called No Plan B. And it's amazing. And it did influence me, influence this book. And I worked on getting Arnold Schwarzenegger for three months to do that. And every single...
person is there for, you know, a reason. And so the moral of that story, I think when you set an intention, like we were talking before about you getting Richard Branson, who's God and amazing, and you got him on your podcast. I think people... oftentimes put a ceiling on what's possible without even realizing it. And the reason why you and I are talking about victimhood and blaming, the fuel for that impulse is blame.
It was easy for you to do because you had X, Y, but I can't possibly achieve. I can't get Richard Branson on my podcast or I can't get Arnold Schwarzenegger on my book. And so. I learned from that very young age that being a little bit defiant and oppositional unlocks all that tremendous opportunity. So that's where the quotes on the back of the book came from. I love that.
In Hebrew, we call it chutzpah. Like you just need to like figure it out and just do it and open those doors for you. But I agree. I think sometimes. And I could probably see myself even a decade or two ago seeing something like this and saying, well, this is not for me. This is somebody that already has the network or already has everything or they have a massive vitamin P, you know.
So it's really hard to see yourself as somebody that can create that and make that possible. So, and this is also just, I think for everybody listening. I came with no network, none. Okay. Matt came with no network. Like he created this. So I think this is just such a great reminder.
That yes, everything is possible as long as you're willing to be determined and continue. And I think like you say, Matt, hesitation will kill more dreams than speed ever will, right? So I think a lot of it is just... the compound action that you're talking about.
I'm lucky to be around a lot of fantastically successful people. And wealth is a proxy for that, but that's not the only measure. But I'm just talking about a specific cohort of extraordinarily wealthy people who have achieved crazy things on their own. And what I find... in common is that they make it up in volume. It's like sheer volume of attempts and shots on goal, which most of us can't do because we can't handle losing. Our ego can't handle it. And yet...
I'm around people who do such stunningly terrible things. I don't mean ethically, I mean dumb decisions. And with such horrendous consequences. And then I marvel at their ability to go on. And I'm like, this would wreck me. And I feel like you and I are connecting over being somewhat self-possessed, or at least we can handle it. We're resilient. Maybe not self-possessed, but resilient. And I watch what they can endure, and I'm like, oh my god, that would kill me.
And then I spent some time in the book trying to deconstruct it. And what I found is the common thread is that highly, highly successful people who break new ground, when they have a setback, they simply expand the definition. of what they're trying to achieve to encapsulate that setback. So in other words, they're like, oh, of course it happened. I mean, this is what I wanted to happen. And by virtue of it happening, I'm going to be even better positioned. And because they take that attitude.
They expand the definition of the journey and success to include that setback. They're ultimately successful. So for those who doesn't come natural, including myself, I came up with a little bit of a simple master of the obvious like format that I do that I realized.
When we have a failure, the first thing most of us want to do is protect our reputation, when in fact the thing we should be protecting is our self-esteem. And so now when I have a failure, one, I acknowledge it and say it out loud. I have failed. There's something very powerful about it. taking away its power over you by trying to conceal it too is but i am not a failure
I had an incident of failure, but I am not a failure. It's just an incident of failure. And then three, what was that failure trying to teach me? What can I extract so it's useful? And then four, I'm going to go shoot it and bury it in the backyard, never return to it. And when I see really successful people...
they do have the ability to absorb the wins and repel the losses. When they win, they're like, I did it. It's a little bit, you know, a little bit narcissistic maybe. But when I lost, it was like, that's okay. It doesn't affect their self-esteem. That's so powerful, Matt. So you open a lot of doors in Shark Tank, which is extremely rare to be in the U.S.
Like, I think that's non-existent. First of all, how did you do that? But also, I want to emphasize to the listeners or the viewers, you're surrounding yourself. was really, really smart people. So you're intentionally putting yourself in rooms. that are extraordinary because that will just catapult you at a whole different level at a whole different pace. And I think that's also something to just...
Note, like, who are the people around you? Who are the people that you're surrounding yourself with? Because that's going to make such a big difference. So Matt, take us there. Like, how did you even make that possible? Just talking philosophically, I'm obsessed about this idea of step change versus incrementalism. What I mean by that is we have a societal bias towards incrementalism.
In other words, I must have the lemonade stand before I have the lemonade drink, before I have the lemonade business, before I get to run that business. And those are unwritten rules that are actually weighing down on our ambition. But the reality is those rules are not as hard and fast as we're led to believe. And the reason why that's so important to think about is we find ourselves conforming.
to those unwritten rules and say, you know, if only I do this next thing, then I will be able to do the following thing I really want to do. But when you actually dissect that, it turns out that most of those... incremental steps you believe you have to go along in order to pursue your true ambition are actually about convincing yourself that you have the credentials so you're not embarrassed by the audacity of saying, I want to be a business owner. I went to Harvard and got the certificate.
for eight weeks because now I have Harvard on my LinkedIn or whatever nonsense you've come up with in your mind to delay pursuing your ambition. I, for whatever reason, back to defiant little kid, pissed off about poverty, I, for whatever reason, have a bias towards step change. And what step change means is pursuing something that doesn't follow the natural progression of the direction you're moving in. So, for example, let's use Harvard and we'll talk about charting. When I went to teach.
I have an academic part of my brain that I crave to flex, but I never got a chance because of my upbringing. But I also wondered if that was bullshit. And if that was an excuse, I was like, could I really actually perform at the highest level? It's convenient that I sold flowers on street corners because now we'll never know. And no one would ever believe that that's a valid excuse, Matt. You were poor. Of course you went to Queens College.
Point is, I could have taught anywhere, probably at a different level institution, but to teach at Harvard Business School. is a very different thing. And even though I didn't have the credentials, and even though I have this crazy story, I didn't let that stop me from trying. And because I tried, I got there. So with Shark Tank...
It really all began with an attempt to connect with my beautiful boy, who was not interested in sports, even though I ran the Miami Dolphins. But what he was interested was Mr. Wonderful's royalty deals. And we would watch the shows together. and i would make fun of those deals i'm like that doesn't happen in real life
And he's like, well, how do you know? It's like, well, because I'm like a shark. I invest hundreds of millions of dollars. Like, I know this. And so I then had that epiphany. One, I'm going to sit here with my son together. We're going to watch me on Shark Tank. And then two.
That is the shortest way to prove to people that you are the best, right? If you end up as a shark on Shark Tank, people will presume a lot of things about you, some of which may be true or not true. And so I set the intention. Now, there's no template.
for going on charting. There's no internet application form. There's no process. And this is really important, everybody listening. You just have to make the next step, the next right decision that brings you closer, right? And so the next thing I...
needed to do was how do I get it to a producer who would give me 10 minutes and let me try to turn that 10 minutes into 60 minutes and how I got there is less relevant but I got that one meeting and when I got that one meeting and this is one of my favorite stories I had, up until that point, never given an interview like we're doing now, generally. I did not talk about mom and dying and the sadness. But for whatever reason, on that one day, I opted to throw away my shame.
And I told the story just as I did on this podcast. And that 15 minutes turned into an hour, turned into an hour and a half. And at the end of it, he's like, gosh, I love your story. Such a damn good New York story. We haven't had a story like that. I was like, let's keep talking. That led to a year.
of conversations that eventually landed me on the set of the show. And to get into this part, because this part is even more interesting to me than getting on Shark Tank, was what an anxious mess I was going on Shark Tank. I don't know why I'm the only guest shark to talk about this, but. I almost succumbed at the moment of being able to do it. And I freaked out about feeling like a fraud, feeling like my bank account didn't have enough zeros in it, everything.
And I had one of these great conversations and we can stop here. I just want to share it with the audience. It's like, I was so fragile and my sweet wife was like talking me through it. I had Eminem on a loop on my thing. Lose Yourself, Mom's Spaghetti. I'm sick of myself. Anything that hyped me up, but I'm still a little anxious mess because I felt like...
I would be seen through, finally revealed as the fraud that I feel like we all feel like we are sometimes. And I went to talk to Damon John, who is a shark, and he grew up in Queens, New York, near me, very different.
cultural prism he was black i'm white and he was at red lobster was at mcdonald's but we had a lot of similarities and i told him the truth i said in this little dressing room we have a photo of it together it's one of my favorite and i'm like man damon i'm freaked out he's like what's wrong with you i was like
I just feel like, I don't know. I don't belong here. I was like, this whole thing. I don't know why I'm having these emotions of doubt. And he goes, let me tell you something. This is, I always say, after he MF'd everybody else, what we've been through to get here versus, you know. And he goes to Matt. You belong here because you are here. And I know I said this before, but it's so powerful. I always say it's like Socrates is talking to me or something.
And the point of that story is that there is no final arbiter of belonging. No one is going to pull up the seat for you like, hi, Matt, welcome to the boardroom. And a lot of times women acknowledge this feeling. And I think it's harder for women because they tell the truth and men lie. We all feel it. But the reality is there's no final arbiter of belonging. And when you realize that.
When you realize that no one's going to give you permission or credentialize or validate you for the move you're trying to make, you stop looking at the world through the lens of incrementalism. Because you realize so much of... Your steps that you've imagined are about seeking approval or permission from other people to move along. If I get the Harvard certificate, people will believe I'm good enough.
Right. And when you stop worrying about whether anyone believes you're good enough, then you aim as high as humanly possible. And I, despite my anxiety and I talk about in a book, I have been able to do that. I approach every single situation saying. Who made that rule? Who said I have to do that first before I can do that? And as a result, I'm on billboards in Dubai randomly and doing Shark Tank in Arabic.
I know, it cracked me up when I heard this. And by the way, this is exactly it, right? I mean, that's why Leap Academy, right? Because I don't believe necessarily that you need to crawl your way up. I think... What really makes a difference is that pattern interrupt. Like you're going to have to create a pattern interrupt in yourself and people around you. Otherwise, they just see a little bit of you working harder. That's all they see.
So you're going to have to create that pattern interrupts for yourself and everybody else. But I think there's also a patience play that you're talking about, which I lived through as well, because we all as high achievers want everything yesterday. But it's not going to happen. So when you understand that patience, and it is a patience game, but it's also you're moving from this if-then-else that we all live in. If I get this, then I'll do this, right? To...
No, I'm going to first say yes, and then I'm going to figure out the how. And when you shift that, that's when you start creating that momentum that I just love hearing about. Am I right, Matt? No, first of all, I love the pattern interruption.
The words burn the boats is an inside joke actually in my head. It's actually often used by right-wing people and it can sometimes be very like, burn the boats to hell with everyone. I'm saying the opposite. The boats I'm talking about in my book are the metaphorical boats. that beckon us to retreat from our own ambition. It's the reasons why we erect barriers to our own progression subconsciously. Like, I need to do this before I do that.
The boats I'm talking about are to burn those so that you stop looking over your shoulder and stop questioning whether or not you deserve it. And we don't realize we do it to ourselves. But the truth is that is everything. everything. The belief, the consideration even, not even the belief, just consider whether you can make that leap.
like you talk about. And I have a great story in my book. It's one of my favorite ones in there. I had a student at Harvard Business School. And what I found fascinating when I first started teaching there and mentoring students from me having not gone there and started where I started from.
It seems so obvious that that student has de-risked their life. You will never have a bad career. You're going to make six figures like you won and you deserve it because it's an amazing institution. Right. And so.
Yet they're so fragile and vulnerable, just like the rest of us. They don't know what they should do. In fact, they have a different kind of pressure, which the world expects them to do amazing things. And they're not clear what they want to do. So I had one of my students who came to see me.
And he was about to take a soul-crushing job at a massive private equity firm. And he was sad about it in my office. And we started talking. I was like, well, you know, you don't seem that happy. He's like, it's just not what I want to do. And I was like, what do you want to do? I want to have my own firm. I believe I could do it. I said, oh, well.
what does it take to have your own firm? And he's like, well, you have to have deal flow and you have to have these things. You have to understand what's feasible and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, well, do you know how to do those things? And he goes, well, I do. I said, well, why can't you start your own firm then? He goes, I've never been a managing director at a firm.
I said, oh, well, is that a rule? He's like, well, generally. I said, well, I just invested hundreds of millions of dollars in this little chair I'm sitting in right now. I've never been a managing director. I had no idea. I got to go back and interview.
And so he goes to me, this is the key. He goes, yeah, but who's going to give me money having never done this? I said, you're right. No one's going to give you money until one day somebody gives you money. Somebody's going to give you any good. And that's how the conversation, a true story. He calls me.
a couple months later asking for my size. And I'm like, what do you want my size for? I want to send you my swag from the firm that I just created when I walked out your door. I made a ton of phone calls. Everyone said no. He goes, but some person gave me money and gave me $10 million to start this firm. True story. I read an article in the Wall Street Journal like six months ago. He had raised $100 million. And I tell this story in the book. And I tell this story to be like.
You have to go into the weeds a bit and dissect your behavior and be like, why am I doing it? Had he not done a step change from that moment when he walked out, he would be working in one of those private equity shops sad and would have erected a new barrier to his progression. Well. I can't take that step until I get promoted or I have responsibility for one region of the planet or some other excuse or barrier. And then one day he has children and now he has a 529 plan.
Maybe he has an unhappy marriage. There'll be new barriers that he actually can't control that are not self-made, and maybe he never does it. And so... Everyone out there, I think you and I feel the same way philosophically, like just scrutinize your excuses, your reasons, and God forbid, if there's any blame in your vocabulary, expunge it because it's robbing you of your full potential. I absolutely love this story. It's incredible.
So tell me, Matt, some people will hear the second part of our conversation and we'll say, well, Matt, you can say this because you never fail. What would you say to them? Can you share a story of, no, we all fail because when we burn the boats, we're going to try a lot of things and some will succeed and some will fail, but we're just not going to let it take us down.
Yeah. I mean, first of all, I would say burn the boats does not guarantee that you'll be successful. Not burning the boats guarantees that you won't be successful. that's just a pattern uh formulaic you don't need to burn the boats because you're on autopilot but if you're doing something that might trigger imposter syndrome you have to burn the boat so you will not be successful and if i had not burned the boats to get the shark tank or perform on it there's no way those two things happen so
But in terms of failure, I fail every step of the way. And not in cliche ways. When I got divorced, and I talk about it in the book, there's no more feeling of failure. At least for some people, for a lot of people. So for those listening who can relate, for me it was. The feeling that you had done all you could to try to architect this life, this perfect life. And then at a relatively young age, you're getting divorced. But professional failures.
I opened the book. This is one of my favorite stories in my book. I opened with the story of how after I went on Shark Tank, this is another one of my formulas, right? I always say, okay. What would be even better than being on Shark Tank? It'd be like having my own TV show. And so I partnered up with Mark Burnett, who created The Apprentice.
who had created Shark Tank, like the biggest reality producer in America. And we created a new show called Business Hunters. And it was going to be on CNBC. During the pandemic, I shot eight episodes. I put in so much time to make this show. I love this show. I was the executive producer and a host.
to the show. And then right as the book is about to go to print, the show gets canceled. It never even aired, crushing. And then I'm like, wait, this is the beginning of my book. And then I decided, you know, I think this is the point.
That's why it still should be the beginning of the book, right? Because I love what you just said. It is easy to maybe say, well, it's easy for you to say, Matt, you burned the boats and everything worked out and you can handle the risk. I was like, no, that's the opposite takeaway. I was like, along the way, when I fully committed.
But then the next thing I did is the thing that mattered. Every single time, like I said earlier, there is an opportunity to extract more that's taken from me. So even though that show was canceled, two things happened. One, I formed an incredible relationship with CNBC and have been on CNBC at least.
60 times since that. But two, I said, well, what would be better than having your own show that then gets canceled by a network for which you have no control, that you spent hours and hours of your life and poured your heart and soul and thousands of dollars of your own money?
I was like, having your own production company where no one can do that to you again. And so I partnered with Gary Vaynerchuk and Eric Wattenberg. We now have our own production company. I am now the executive producer on multiple shows that will air on different networks. at the end of the day, was more value extracted from the experience of canceling that show? Absolutely. Because I knew I had what it takes. So the part that does weigh on me a little, back to the whole point of like...
This is when I allow a slight bit of victimhood to slip in. I'm like, just once I would like it to be easy. I know. And most people don't believe this one. They're going to hear about what I'm about to say. The difference between success or failure is the mere refusal to die. I was sitting in a meeting the other day with a business that almost went on to her. And I can't say what it is because it's such a big national brand. But I was sitting in this.
meeting and we had tanked the company with some bad decisions and it was such a shame and we stayed alive within like just so close from not even being around and i was in the meeting this just happened last week and i was saying i think Oh my God, we are going to make it. This is going to work.
And that moment happens in every single thing I do where I'm shocked by our bad decision making or shocked by something we didn't foresee. It almost dies, but we refuse to die and we find a way to survive. So anyone else... who sees the mere act of almost dying or your failure as a referendum.
on your future you or your worthiness, you've got it completely wrong because every single success is forged of fire, but forged of failure. And it's not cliche because I could show you every single thing I'm doing right now. We can get into the drone business. you want every single thing had an existential crisis where it almost died and i lost faith in what i just told you right now where i was like
It can't possibly work. This is just bullshit rhetoric. But I was like, no, but I can't give up. I don't want to die. And my refusal to die, our refusal to die, is the thing that makes it actually successful. And I've learned that. from being around these incredible people too. And it's their formula, not just mine. Oh my God, this is so powerful, man.
The pain is inevitable, but the suffering will be a choice. And you need to decide if you let it take you down. But I have to say that in venture capital, and I've been investing for quite some time. We have a saying, it's called near-death experience. We literally know that the co-founders or the founders will have what we call near-death experience. And the only question is, will it take them down or not? It's inevitable. So the only question is.
Will you take it down? Right. But speaking of drones, I come from the Air Force world and, you know, been a lot in that arena and you have an incredible company. So can you talk a little bit about that, Matt? Yeah, and I'll put it in the context of this discussion and I'll shorten it too. So way back when I wrote the first into a new sport called the Drone Racing League in 2015.
and it wasn't always clear to me like will this take off it's very hard to create a sport talk about something i don't recommend to anybody listening like it is so difficult so many things have to go right but early on in that evolution we realized the technology that we're inventing the ability for drones
to fly 100 miles an hour with goggles, the ability to operate in very crowded environments with cellular signals, you know, messing up the signal between the pilot and the drone. All this stuff would one day probably be put to nefarious purposes. and conflict or terrorism and it just gave me the same feeling i used to have standing under the twin towers of 9-11 thinking like how did this happen how did we not see it coming and we couldn't look away and so quietly a group of us
created a new company in Huntsville, Alabama. It's called BDW. And we spent the next several years working to create a tool that would give the warfighter on the edge of conflict, the ability to call in their own air support in the form of this drone. And why I love that story, aside from I think it's just some of the best work that I've ever done professionally with my team, my co-founders, is we had to see the future.
We had to believe it with all of our heart. And we had to do something so difficult. There's even a name for it. It's called the Valley of Death in the military world and defense. It's this gulf where you don't get a program of record. But you have to spend so much money creating it in the hopes that one day you'll win. And we worked on it. Tens of millions of dollars and all this effort below the radar on September 11th.
2024, the U.S. Army designated our drone the program of record for the United States. And whether somebody is interested in this category or not, or robotics or military, what I love about it is... We could have just chosen to never try. We could have instead said, it's just a sport. The most incredible outcomes come from when you make those pivots and you see something and you're willing to believe it. And the reason why...
I said before, you have to be comfortable being alone like that little boy in the steps of Cardoza High School, is that if I had relied on other people's validation that the future of conflict was going to be about small drones, nobody would have believed me in 2017, right?
And now everyone reads the clips about what happened in Ukraine. This is a national security priority for the United States of America, that we have a domestic drone industry. To be honest, I always thought it would be, and so did my colleagues. But we were alone in that thought. You know, so we just had to like talk. No one cares. No one's listening. And we just had to do it. And so fast forward. I love that. I love the moments when I had to.
lead alone with a few colleagues and no one agreed and then you come out the other side and everyone is right there alongside with you and and the best work i've ever done that's always the same scenario you know and that's why it's so important to realize that
The magnitude of an opportunity has an inverse relationship with the amount of evidence and validation that will be supported. When you deconstruct that sentence, of course, this is a huge opportunity and we need to build this domestic drone industry. Nobody agrees. Why? Because it's a big opportunity.
And it's not here yet. So anyone out there, when you're like, why wouldn't anybody listen to me? Or why does my wife or husband think I'm crazy? It's because the epiphany was rendered to you alone as a gift. from God or the universe. The epiphany was not given to your spouse or your boss or your frenemy. It was given to you at three in the morning and it's your baby and it's your burden now to carry it alone until others will one day agree with you.
Looking at all your life, what would be something that you would kind of reflect to your younger self and wish you could meet the child, Matt, and tell him? I think... A couple of things. One, for anyone out there who also has gone through trauma or poverty and pain, it's okay that it takes a lifetime to heal. I am not even remotely healed.
It's a lifelong pursuit, so be kind to yourself that it takes a long time. If I could go back in time and talk to the younger version of myself or the 20 version of myself or the 30s, it would be the same speech. Nobody cares. You are spending so much mental energy anticipating how your ambition will be rejected or judged.
And you are self-censoring your own potential because you believe that others will care. And the reality is they don't care a fraction of what you think they do. And two, those who do are wasting their life. And you should pity them. and not fear them. And if I had known that, I would have achieved more with this life. I would have done it more peacefully. I would have done it with a more open heart, because I think when you anticipate judgment, you become more close-hearted.
And because everyone's an enemy, right? Like, oh, somebody's trying to tear me down. And you do feel their energy sometimes. And that does make you more resistant to opening your heart up. If I had just realized, like, nobody cares. And the ones who care, you should just feel bad for.
And so I would say to anybody younger or at any point in our life, like, we are going to meet God one day. And I'm like, oh, nobody was thinking that. Like you, you were lost in your own little prison of your own making. And the other thing I wish I would have told them is like, the only thing. guaranteed is truly the present you should embrace mortality mortality is a gift that can zoom you into the moment
And I would have spent a lot more time early on thinking about death. I know this sounds nuts. But I have an app on my phone called WeCroak where five times a day it reminds me, I am going to die. And those moments are actually quite peaceful because they make me not care about all the noise that's going on. So I gave you two, not just one. Wow. That's incredible, Matt. I never thought about it, but I think for me, losing my mom was the biggest slap in the face of stop wasting your life.
Yes, if we can leverage death to push us forward, but also be present and enjoy the journey is just such a powerful. thing matt thank you so much i knew it's gonna be incredible i i can talk to you for hours thank you for your time and everything
I love connecting with your audience. I'm rooting for everybody out there. Like if you read my book, Burn the Boats, DM me because I'm a human being who needs to sustain this effort. I am doing it. I'm on a mission. And so it's not a mission of ego gratification. mission of having an impact. Maybe that is ego, but if you read it and it moves you, just DM me on LinkedIn or, and I read every single comment. So I would love to hear from you. So for everybody listening, everybody viewing.
That book is incredible. It will make you cry. It will make you think. It will make you everything. But I can't recommend it enough. Matt, thank you for being on the show. Thank you so much. Have a great day.