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Welcome to the leading saints podcast. Now for many of you that are brand new, uh, to leading saints, it's important that you know, that leading saints is a nonprofit organization, 5 0 1 C three, dedicated to helping latter day saints be better prepared to lead. And we do that through content creation. We get so much positive feedback on the podcast, our virtual conferences, the articles on our website.
You definitely gotta check it [email protected] and on their homepage at leading saints do org. You can actually find the top six most downloaded episodes to the podcast. So if you're new, like the content want to jump into some of our most popular episodes head there after you listen to this episode. Today. I give the opportunity to sit down with Sean Moon, the author of learning leadership from the scriptures. Welcome to the podcast, Sean, thank. You, Kurt. Thrilled.
To be here. Yeah. We just recorded this and got a lot of just talking about the context of, you know, why, why do we go to the scriptures and look for leadership principles? You mentioned some great and another reference of Jesus. The greatest leader is, is that the. Jesus, Jesus, the perfect. Leader, the perfect leader. That's right by president Kimball. He's. Actually a talk he gave to a group of YPO leaders, young presidents organization back in the seventies. Yeah.
It's a classic. And so we delve into that and, and why the scriptures are so important in our leadership journey. And uh, anything else we hit on that we to tease the audience that. Well, just how powerful the scriptures are at teaching. So much of what we need to know in life, everything and this great, important, really profound topic of leadership is very, very well and richly addressed throughout the.
Scriptures. Perfect. All right. Here's my interview with Sean Moon, the author of learning leadership from the scriptures. All right, Sean. So you recently wrote the book learning leadership from the scriptures. So has this been like a, like it's been on your mind for decades and you finally sat down and wrote. It? Yeah, it has. I love the topic of leadership. I've spent really my entire career studying it, writing about it, teaching it all over the world.
I've I've had the privilege of teaching executives and leaders on every continent except for Antarctica. So, oh, nice. If you're going out, I'm in, I'll carry your bags for you. so I've, I've always been really started as a missionary, this idea around how do we lead? How do we influence,
how do we make a difference? And I remember many, many years ago coming across a quote by president Kimball, where he said the greatest manual that we have available to us on the topic of leadership is the scriptures mm-hmm . And I don't think we really have plumbed that enough. We have a lot of, you know, little points of discussion on leadership, but taking the idea, looking at leadership through the lens of the scriptures, I think is a really fascinating thing.
So I had in my scriptures right in the back, I would write little notes to myself and I had a little column of just some here's some leadership topics that have come across and I always had this thing sort of, you know, you ought to do something with this. And then it was in conjunction with the bicentennial, the first vision and president Nelson came out and he encouraged all of us to do something right. To consider doing something to honor that. And I, I, it struck me as I was, uh,
as I heard him say that this is probably the time to do that. And so, you know, when you begin a writing project, you're not always sure. I don't know if it's different for you, but for me, I'm not always sure where it's gonna end up. Yeah. You know, you. Just started, that's the fun of it, right. It's the fun of it. You discovered as go. I remember just a little side. I think it was Susan Black. One time said, I don't know about a topic until I write about it. And I love that.
And that that's really how it is for me as well. So IBM writing and then COVID happened and it sort of changed all of our world and invited us to caused us to look at leadership, maybe through some different experiences and, and maybe gave us a little bit more time away from the hustle and bustle of, you know, normal travel and work and everything. And, and so that's been my focus for the last couple of years. Yeah. Is, is organizing this and, and getting some thoughts down, maybe.
Explain more of your career, like the dynamic of you would go to maybe a bunch of, uh, managers in a company. Yeah. And you teach 'em leadership or how, how did. That work? Yeah, so I had the privilege of working with great organizations over, as I mentioned over 30 years and as a consultant going in and training their leaders, particularly their executive teams, their CEO, sometimes their board, a lot of their senior management staff, and then all the way down and throughout to, you know, the,
the entry level of the organization. And so I've had the privilege of hundreds, if not thousands of conversations about leaders in all kinds of organizations, in all different areas of their life at all stages and ages, as I mentioned all over the world. And so it has really, uh, been, I call, I think of it as a sacred privilege to be able to work on this really rich, important topic with so many different people. Mm-hmm, , across a wide and very diverse group.
Yeah. And so I'm maybe how would you coach someone when approaching the scriptures in the context of leadership like are, as you, you know, you mentioned those notes that you would take, are you reading through scriptures and a principles jumping out that maybe you've, you've already talked about in the context, you know, more professional context, or what does that journey look like in the scriptures and leadership? You know, that for me was maybe one of the most enjoyable,
fulfilling parts of this journey. Mm-hmm , you know, when you study the scriptures there, sometimes for me, when I read the scriptures, I'll start at the beginning of the volume and read through end to end. I do that a lot. Mm-hmm , but sometimes you'll study topically. And when you study topically, you learn and experience different things and you, you know, you can study what other people say about and give lots of different perspectives.
What I have found and really was in some of the other books that I've done I've I had the same experience, but was really brought home in this experience that when you study the scripture with this singular topic in mind, it was to say it was mind blowing might be an overstatement, but maybe not. It was a really amazing rich experience. What I found Kurt is I went through that is that there were examples of leadership on every single page.
And I knew as I began writing this, that this was just for me, just a start of getting the process going, because there is so much there on the topic that, you know, this is about 300 pages or so it doesn't even scratch the surface. And since the book has been published, you know, I've, I've had hundreds of other, well, what about this? And what about there is just so much there. I mean, think about, think about studying the life of the savior as an example and model of
leadership. In fact, the article that piqued my interest so many years ago by president Kimble, I think is entitled Jesus, the perfect leader. Oh yeah. Remember that. Yeah. And it was one that we got as a missionary and, and that's where president Kimel said, use the scriptures as your manual for leadership development. How does one articulate clearly and, you know, effectively how Jesus was the perfect leader. There is just so much there. My write this in the book,
the wealth that we draw from there is just too deep. There's just so much, so, you know, this book does not purport at all to be the, you know, the treat us on leadership and the scriptures or the definitive work. It, for me was just a way of making my, you know, contribution to the topic. And I hope that others will continue this, and this will go on and on and on. I'm passionate about the topic and I'm passionate about the scriptures.
And I just found that as you get in, you know, you've, I'm sure you've had that experience where you study the scriptures with a singular topic in mind. Yeah. It's a really unique and powerful experience. So how did you study with the topically focused with leadership? How did you approach the scriptures? Did you look up certain words or, I mean, how do you begin to, to do that?
Yeah. So a couple different ways, maybe a few different ways. I, first of all started with just some stories that I had remembered and I had studied and I had loved over the years and, and that was the starting point for me. So, and it, it came across all the old standard works and, you know,
there's great stories from church history. There's great, wonderful, amazing stories from the old Testament. And of course in the new Testament, you have the life of the savior through the gospels and, and throughout the whole book, then of course the apostles and all that they did to sacrifice. And, and then you get in the book of Mormon and it's endless. Yeah. Right. It's just endless.
And so I would start with what I knew and I would research those and I would get into, into, um, you know, what other people have said about them and try to apply my own experience and my own stories. And, and then, you know, what I found Kurt to be super interesting because I wrote this over a couple of years, I had the benefit of the come follow me. Oh yeah. And, and so every week as I'm going through that process, I'm thinking about it.
Maybe I was too myopically focused, but it was really helpful for me thinking about seeing everything through that lens. I find that when I write is I've, I've written, you know, other books and, and other trade books on the topic of leadership. But this is my first church book on the topic of leadership that I, I tend to get a little bit, you know, tunnel vision a little on, on a particular topic. And, and so I began to see everything I was reading through the lens of leadership.
And so sometimes it was, I'd take a word and I'd study it, for example, a word like, remember one of these sections in the book is how do I lead my own life? And, you know, one of the most often repeated commandments in all of scripture, I think probably more so even in the commandment to repent is a commandment to remember. And I counted up, you know, 613 times where we've been specifically commanded to remember. And as soon as I put 613 in the book, you find so many more. Right.
And so one of the challenges I'll suggest is you find more because every covenant we make every law that is all designed to help us remember. So that's just one example, you take that word and you study it and you find out where it comes and you find that it just opens the lens. Yeah. Yeah. So let's go back to maybe some basics here, cuz I think like you take the, maybe the, a typical individual who's called as an elders core president or relief study
president. And you know, they're not thinking, you know, they've had a career where they're, you know, eyeballs deep into, into leadership principles and concepts. And so they're like, I think leadership, I'm just like, I supposed to show up, make sure like goals are reached and right. Everything's working. Right. So I mean, how would you, and with that, and maybe they don't even have the right lens to begin to even find leadership principles in the scriptures.
So how would you even begin to define what leadership is? So we can actually look for in the scriptures. Really, really important question. And I'm always dubious of nice little pithy statements that say leadership is, and then you have a little statement. Yeah. Because Kirk, as you know, leadership is a lot of things.
It's a complex, complicated topic. I mean, so for example, think about this in the, in the, in a professional setting we often attribute or scribe leadership to a particular position, right? Someone's a CEO or they're an executive or they're a manager or supervisor. They are a leader because they hold the position. Right. And yes, because they hold the position, they need to demonstrate leadership strengths. But leadership begins well before the position.
Every single one of us has a responsibility to be a leader in our life. One of the fundamental principles that we need to learn is that we're in charge of us. No one else makes our decisions for us. I remember my, uh, brother Williams. He was my ninth grade seminary teacher. My first day of seminary, I show up 7:00 AM. I'm sitting on the front row. And he asked us to pull out a sheet of paper. He said, we're gonna take a test first thing in the first minute of high school.
And I'm all uptight about grades. And you know, if I, if I fail this quiz, I'll never go to college and all the stuff my parents had, uh, drummed in my head and it was one question he said, and it will count on your final grade. So I'm like, oh great. I failed before I began. One question was simply this who is the most important person in the world. And I remember sitting there thinking, well, gosh, what does he want me to say?
Is it God? Is it my mom? I think I put my mom. And the answer was me, you know? And isn't that an egocentric way of viewing the world, except for this really important point. No one makes my decisions for me, but me. So when you apply the leadership to that, I mean, we all have to lead our own lives. So that's where I start in the book. Yeah. I provide 12 practices, right. And four practices in, how does one lead their life? What do the scriptures say about that?
And then how does one lead in their family? And that doesn't mean you are the father or the mother or the grandmother or the grand, what it might mean that you are the younger brother. And can you be a leader in your family regardless of where you are in the pecking order? Could you be a second cousin? Yes. The point is that all of us in our roles at all times need to be leaders and we need to separate the notion of leadership from the position of leadership. Mm-hmm yeah.
Steven kind used to say this and I love this. He said, leadership is a choice, not a position. And that's what we make. And then I have third section of book where yes, when you get the calling, you need to demonstrate leadership abilities. And so when we think about that, we think about, yes, the Bishop and or the state president or general authority or, but what about the deacons quorum secretary? What about the librarian? What about the girls camp cook? Right.
Every calling requires leadership, every calling. Yeah. So that's sort of the, the idea. When I think about leadership, I have a definition of leadership that is something about the ability to influence yourself and others in achieving sustained results, not just results today, but results tomorrow in the next year and the next year.
And as we achieve these results leaders, we convey a sense of vision and we develop trust and we establish confidence in those who, who, uh, who follow, we help remove barriers. And we inspire the best efforts and lift other people around us and hope to magnify the talents of, of other people in the process. We not only develop our own leaders, but we're developing leaders around us. So you, you think about that? I mean, leadership is a lot, it's a lot of things.
Yeah. Yeah. And, and I guess it begins with, you know, we obviously results play a role in what leadership is and you know, there's results we're trying to aim for, but it really begins. You can't have results without that vision of, you know, what the, what it is we're actually trying to have result. Right. And if you're in current, if you're leading award, then you need to help create that vision of award. Yeah.
I'll give you an example of that. When I serve up as a Bishop, we had the opportunity to help everybody, you know, create a vision for their life and what, and I learned a very, very interesting thing that when I, and as a Bishop, we made the change to have our focus be on the temple and being able to attend the temple. And all of that requires to go to the temple and then engage in, you know, the, the temple experience and sort of have our life center around how Christ is the
center of all of that. It changed everything in my ward, right. So when you have the calling, you create that vision, but I would suggest that just as important in our own lives, do we have that sense of vision for who we are for who we really are? Mm-hmm does do people really understand? And the answer is, do we really understand? No, we don't even have the first idea of what that really means. Yeah. To be a child of God. What does that really mean?
It's worth deep thought and deep discussion and deep contemplation or what I would call deep personal leadership work. Yeah. And it's so easy to fall back on some of those cliches of, you know, leadership and vision like, oh, we're gonna, you know, write it on, on a plaque or put, and, and that's fine. You can do that, you know, put on the wall, maybe we'll read it, you know, together. But like you said, it almost goes back to, it starts with the, our, uh, personal vision of ourselves.
And I always go back to the life of Christ that that truly is where he got his power. Is he, he was a hundred percent satisfied and aware of who he was. Yeah. And he could walk into any room yeah. And be, do you know? And that's where we get these stories. Right. Everything he did yeah. Was consistent with who he was. Yeah. Is that marvelous? Yeah. It's. Awesome. Think about that. The first practice I have of the 12 that I had out in the book is to know your identity.
Do we really know who we are and do we behave at all times and at all, places consistent with that just as, just as the savior. World. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and I think that, you know, in the context of like an elders core relief society, there may be this sort of, this cast vision of like, we're going to increase in attendance or sure.
Administering efforts or whatever, but to, to go back to, and this is at the core of the, of our doctrine is we want everybody to be a little bit more familiar with who they are. Yeah. And have a vision of who they are and then that the other stuff sort of takes care of itself. Right. Yeah. If that's your foundation and it's clearly understood and lived, it serves as a foundation provides you the bedrock. Yeah.
Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Um, now, by the way, I, I don't throw vision and goals and, uh, and all those things, those are super important. Right. Yeah. And I talk about those later on how that is critical part when you're in a calling that requires that you need to be prepared and able to engage in those really critical leadership skills. Right.
And would you say there's like a foundation that you have to lay first before you can get to that, and maybe we jump on those goals too quickly without laying a foundation. Is that fair to say, or. Yeah, I think so. I mean, this is probably a bad analogy because it comes from a Corpus sitting, but I, I was working with an organization a while back and I remember I walked into this beautiful room. It had the plush carpet and the cherry wood walls and mahogany table,
and is all decked out. And these leaders were sitting around this table. And I noticed as I walked in that, on just to the wall, was this beautifully framed copy of their mission and vision, right. This is who we are. This is our purpose. This is what we stand for. This is what we aspire to. Yeah. And I went over there and I read it and I remember thinking to myself, that's pretty good. I like that. I'm pretty critical of those things.
I help organizations create those things. And so I'm pretty critical. And I remember thinking it's pretty good. I decided I would test it. So the people come back from break. And, and I said on the wall, is this beautifully framed copy of your organization's mission, vision of values. Now mm-hmm, nobody look at it. could anyone tell me what it says? And you ever been in a room where their eyes just go down, like, please don't call one thing. I said, I don't quote, just the gist.
What's the gist of what it says, anybody, same thing. Right. So that led to really interesting discussion about what's the point, if we have no idea about what the gist even is, what's the point, our lives are the same way we need to part of, I think what we're here on earth to do is to gain a sense of perspective about who we are and what that means. And when we understand that, how can we bless other people's lives through that realization? Right.
And I think that's leadership. Yeah. And these stories are perspectives kind of mind, as far as in the context of some of your church leadership positions, as far as like casting that vision or reaching goals, or, I mean, sometimes become overwhelming to walk into that scenario and execute on that effectively. And, and to the point where we just sort of think, you know, I'm just gonna make sure the doors are unlocked and the lights are on and call
it. Good. Yeah. I mean, you know, we just recently have gone through in the old Testament, the, uh, study of I'll use Gideon for an example, but you know, you can pick Enoch or Joseph or Joseph Smith. I mean, because they all sort of follow a similar pattern, they're called to do something extraordinary. And one of the first things that Gideon says is, yeah, why did you pick me? My family has nothing. We're poor. We're insignificant. Why, why did you pick me? Moses went through that too.
Moses said, who am I? Enoch said, all the people hate me. You know? So why did you pick me? So if you feel that way, , you know, know that you're in good company. I think the scriptures really help address that point. And first lesson I think is that heavenly father knows who we really are. He knows our capabilities. He's called us to do something extraordinary and we can step up. I think the scriptures teach us that we don't have to have every answer. What we have to do is trust in him.
I think being effective leader in the church is probably a whole lot less about doing all of the right textbook leadership things and a whole lot more about trusting in him and following the spirit, doing the things that we feel like, you know, we should do. And yes, along the way, let's set goals and let's hold people accountable and let's have those kinds of discussions. But so many of us, uh, when we get that first calling, it is like,
gosh, I, I dunno what to do. why did you pick me? Right. Who am I? Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's helpful. You felt. That way too. Yeah. And just that, you know, seeing it from the frame of I'm, I'm trusting in God, I, the, I shouldn't know what to do. Not every leader knows what to do, but I can at least sort of be in this cadence of I'm gonna trust in God. And right. Maybe that means I just sit here for 15 minutes and ponder over that as far as what, what my next step.
Is. How did you feel when you were called as a Bishop? Yeah, it was, uh, overwhelming. yeah. It was right. Like what, what do I do now? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And my poor ward and you know what, I'm sure you were magnificent and I'm sure lives were blessed because you just sort of, you know, I, I like the metaphor. You, you get up, you load your hand cart and you head design.
You don't know what's gonna happen during the day, but in the morning you put your stuff in the hand cart and you keep pushing. Yeah. And as leaders, sometimes we have to do that there a present, uh, a packer, uh, use this analogy. Others have as well of, sometimes we just have enough light for the next step. And so we take the next step as a leader and then hope that the Lord will light the next step. And he does. And in step by step by step.
Yeah. What comes to mind in terms of leadership and the scriptures and in this concept of, of motivation, because sometimes that's the default position, you know, even in the church of my, my job, as a leader is to, is to crack the whip, get these people, moving, give them to do something. I mean, does the scripture, because sometimes we wanna go to that scriptures, like, wow, this is pretty motivational scripture cuz you know, the hell fire and damnation was mentioned a few times.
Jacob was really pointed on that. Yeah. Jacob. Was, he was a fire again. Jacob too. Yeah. And he'll say I'm doing this because if I don't, the blood's on me. Yeah. Right. And I'm gonna be the one carrying the burden. I don't wanna do that. So I'm calling you to repentance and you know, Jacob was, he, he taught us the seriousness of making these kinds of, of decisions. There's a, um, a business that fell by the name of Simon Sinek and he's written some books, but I love, I love what he does.
One of those he wrote was called start with why now think about this from a, from a church perspective. And in a life perspective, we spend an awful lot of our time thinking about what we have to do in the church. When we have responsibilities, there's a lot of time spent on what we have to do. And then how do we do it in a professional setting? You know, here's what we're, here's our goals. And then how we do it,
we're gonna hold each other accountable. And every single week we're gonna have, you know, this cadence of accountability and we're gonna have these performance reviews and all, you know, how we execute our goals is really important and all that is really good. But Simon says, yeah, it's really good. But let's first take a step back and ask ourself the question, why are we doing this? So think about that in a church context, why do we do what we do now? I used to say,
we would go to church for three hours. We don't go to church for three hours. We, we only, we only go to church for two hours, but we get these callings that take extraordinary amounts of time, often coming at a time in our life when we have extraordinary pressures in other aspects of our life, right. We have children and needs and we have to make money and fi take care of our financial needs and create lasting memories for the kids and then meet with our
family. And, and we, we pay 10% to the church and we go to girls camp and we go, you know, camping with the boys in our steak, we have this thing called Zion's camp and we have high adventure and, you know, gosh, for the month of June, people just essentially take that off because of all the church responsibilities they do. And, and we fast, uh, once a month and we don't date until we're 16 and we try to avoid our rated
movies. And I mean the, what we do and how we do it lists go on and on and on and on. And they're great lists. Yeah. But I think it's important occasionally. And I think the scriptures are a big reminder. Why do we do it in the first place? Why do we do it? Yeah, we do it. And here's, here's an example from the scriptures. He had a young boy in his 15th year who was asking these questions and he goes to a Grove of trees and kneels down and,
and petitions the Lord. And, and he had this remarkable experience where the father and the son appeared to him and said, there is plan. You're gonna play a role in this plan. And through that experience, we learn about all kinds of things. But you know, we learn about, think about what the new Testament teaches about the role of the savior and what that means in our life. I mean, why do we do all this?
Because there's a plan because we have a heavenly father who knows us and loves us because he sent his son who redeemed us and saved us from our sins and overcame death and, and knows us and bore our sins. We do that because we love them. When I was a, I went a Bishop, I had this really interesting experience. I was over a ISA ward and my ward was just a little bit older than the, the typical campus ward. So I had a lot of professionals, people who were, are out working and,
but some who weren't and just kind of scraping by and getting into life. And, you know, and so tithing settlement free was always a very, very interesting experience. I would ask these kids who I knew had no money, no money. And you know, how am I gonna make my rent and buy my books or go on a date? Or, and I would say, so tell me about tithing, your full tithe. Yeah. So I'd say, well, I know your financial situation. Why do you do this? Kurt?
I expected them to say I do this because I know the Lord will open the windows of heaven and pour up blessing so great that I won't even have room to receive them all. yeah. You know what? They never said that never, you know what they said, I love the Lord. Mm. Why do you do this? Because I love the Lord.
I think that the scriptures are tr you know, yes. Why do, because hopefully we are learning to love the Lord through the scriptures and that's the motivation behind all the what and all the how of what we. Have to. Yeah. Now I love how you reference, uh, you know, all these different stories in the scriptures individuals, they were asked to do something remarkable, right? There is a, some framed as a larger story to step into and how God takes the such
ordinary people and makes some extraordinary over and over again. Yeah. And to say, and even the way he, he created our minds, we are wired for story, right? Yeah. It's not a, a bunch of math equations in a Bible. And he said, here it is, you know, this should help. He gave us a bunch of stories and said, I wanna show you again in, and again, and again, how I made ordinary people remarkable. And I can do that for you too. Right.
Yeah. And that, that's the essence of, of leadership is that expansive transformational experience that we. Can have. I, I think so. And one of the things I think the scriptures really help us appreciate is the sort of the beginning, middle and end of that story. Mm-hmm because when we're in the middle of it, or we're in the beginning, that all we see is what's happening right here. And right now, and we might feel like Enoch. We says, I, I can't do this.
And all the people hate me. And I don't like to, I don't wanna open my mouth. And the Lord says, no, open your mouth and it will be filled. And we get the benefit of seeing what happens over the next period of time when he goes through that transformation he just talked about. Yeah. So I think it teaches a lesson of perspective, right? So for example, and I use this, I have a section on time management. I use this, uh, cuz I think time management is a critical part of leadership in, in that I,
I use this example. I think it also applies to just general perspective. You have Moses who had basically left the hear of Farrell. He had entered this life. That was very different than what he had known as a child. And he had sacrificed some of the worldly pleasures to be obedient and to follow, to follow his calling. He had, uh, gone into, into Ferrell and we'd had the, the plagues and all of the stuff that, that, and he'd done everything that was asked of him.
And then he's leading the children of Israel out of Egypt into the promised land and what that 40 year journey was gonna be. He didn't I'm sure maybe he did, but my sense is he didn't really know all that that was going to entail. And, and so the hard things are just getting started for Moses. Well, he gets to the shore of the red sea and he looks down, everyone looks backward and what do they see? They see the arm is a feral bearing down and you ever feel
like heavenly father, I've done everything. You've asked me everything. and now look, what's happening. Yeah. It's all falling apart. We plan this girl's camper. We plan whatever it is and everything just I've done everything you've asked and how come this isn't working out. And that's a moment where we have to have the perspective to trust in the Lord. And of course the Lord does deliver and the scriptures teach us that.
Yeah. How did you go about like, what was your thought process as far as organizing this book? Cause I guess going into, I expected just story after story and then, you know, principle a and principle B. Yeah. But what, uh, I bet it, I don't, it seems like it would be a challenge to figure out how do you organize a book to talk about learning about leadership through the. Scriptures? You know, it, it wasn't particularly easy because as I said at the beginning of this,
there's just so much there. It's so rich. How do you put all of that in and what do you leave out and what do you, you know, because maybe there's 10 volumes of this, right? There's just so much, I landed on this. I wanted to have it structured. I, I began talking about the, what the, why, the, how, the, where and the, how of leadership. So I, I have the first it's broken into four parts. First part is that then the second part is leadership in my own life.
The third part is leadership in my family. And the fourth part is leadership in my calling. And I tried to begin every chapter with the scriptural vignette that sort of highlighted here's what this, the scripture teaches about this general theme. And then each of those areas, script leadership in my own life, I provide for practices leadership in my family for additional practices and leadership. I calling for additional practices.
Each practice begins with a scriptural vignette, some stories and then quotes. And then I try to bring in my own experience and other stories that reinforce that point. So it's not, you know, a list of a hundred scriptures that have it. It really just tries to tell the tell of leadership in a sort of an in a more broad way maybe than just a single point and bring in other outside examples that reinforce what we learned in the scriptures, as well as, you know, specific examples from the.
Scriptures. Yeah. And obviously there's probably a million ways you could have outlined and gone through the book, but I just like that you did it one way and, and hopefully that engages people to say, yeah, you know what, that I am gonna approach the scriptures in a way that, and look for leadership and, and see it as more of a leadership help rather than just scriptures or they come follow me lesson or no, this is actually going to help me as an elders,
Gordon president as a really excited president, so forth. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, it's designed not necessary. I mean, I love it when people will read it sequentially and, and uh, and I think that can be helpful, but it's also designed to not do that. Yeah. Right. Just to, I want to just kind of focus in on, maybe here's a leadership concept. Right. Um, and so you could do that as well. Yeah. So let's jump, I'm curious with the, the section leadership and my calling.
Sure. Cause obviously individuals listening to this, uh, may, may be in a specific leadership calling or at least they're in some type of calling and you organize in, in four quadrants like you did with, with the others. Uh, maybe just walk us through these, let's just explore these. Sure. So at each of these levels leadership in my own life leadership in my family leadership in my calling, I'd introduce the level. I provide a foundational scripture.
I introduce a principle and then I introduce a mindset, a associated with that principal. And then here are the practice associated with it. Let me give you an example.
Okay. Here's my calling, the foundational scripture that I picked and you could have picked any number of them was just simply what Merone I said, which is come unto Christ and be perfected in him, sort of this capstone moment of the book of Mormon, which introduces the governing principle that I identified here is the principle of conversion that in our callings, in any calling we have, whether we're the Bishop or the,
where the second counselor in the young women's organization or what we used to call the beehive class, but the 12, 13 year old class, right? Yeah. That any calling we have really has one purpose in mind and that's conversion to Jesus Christ. That's our objective. So that rep introduces the mindset, how I think in every action, in every word, in every program. But my job, regardless of whatever my calling is, is to help others come closer to the savior, into making, keep sacred covenants.
If that's the mindset connected to the principle, then I have identified four practices that can help us do them. Okay. One of the practices is I've got this calling, how do I organize? And how do I manage the work? It's one practice. Another practice is in our callings. We all have to teach. So how do we teach in such a way that we teach with power? Another practice is one of the responsibilities I have as a leader is to develop other leaders is to raise the water level for all boats.
And so what can I do to develop other leaders? And finally, a practice that we need to engage in as we are in a calling is to recognize that the key to the 90 and nine is so often the one and the savior taught that example so beautifully as have so many others to lead one by one. So those are the four practice identified, organize, manage the work, teach with power, develop by the leaders lead one by one, you could argue, we should have had 15 other ones.
And that's the beauty of the S there is just so much there, right. But that's how I organize that section. Nice. So talk to us about the, the first one organizing and managing the work, cuz, and this is, I mean, this is sort of practice. I do that. I'm sure you went through is sometimes you find a story and it's like this remarkable story my mind goes to like captain Morona like obviously a general of an army. There's a lot of leadership going on and to just sit with a story and be like,
how did he do that? Right? Like how did he organize? Like, does it talk about his, uh, morning, uh, routine or, I mean, those types of things, right. You're looking for, for those those principles. So when it comes to organizing and managing the work, what can we learn from the scriptures? Again, there's just so much. So for example, here's, here's how I begin that discussion. You think about Nefi and Lehigh and we love so much this great,
awesome leadership scripture. I will go and do first Nefi three seven, what the Lord has to committed for. No Lord gives no commandment under the children. Man's save, shall prepare way that we accomplished that. Right. And Nefi was able to say that because Lehigh also went and did Uhhuh, right? So you have these marvelous examples of getting direction from the Lord and going and doing, doing that's great. And when you have the dream and you have the clarity going and doing,
you just do it right. Because you have that connection. But I get actually the example of Pia and I'm not, I don't know if she didn't, but I'm not finding any specific example in the scrubbers where Pia also had a dream psoria just went and did. Mm. She just did. Yeah. She didn't a dream. She didn't know. She left her home. She left her riches. She went into the wilderness where she Bo children in the most depraved of conditions.
And she saw her daughters and daughter in daughters-in-law do the same thing. I mean, she did hard things. She went and did, and she didn't have every answer before she went. Right. And so that's how I begin this, this idea in a lot of our colleagues, we don't always know exactly. Or we may have been directed by our state president or bio Bishop who we, we have absolute confidence that they're getting inspiration for Lord, but now we, we have to go and do, and they're the ones that have had.
So how do we get going on that? And sometimes you just have to go and do I love section 80 of the doctrine and covenants. It's one of the shortest sections of the doctrine covenants. And it, the Lord gives this, uh, example of these men that are called to serve a mission men that we don't hear much of in, in church history. And he essentially says to them, you know, you can go to the north or the south or east or the west doesn't matter, just go, just start doing.
So one of the things that we do don't get so caught up in, you know, being busy about finding ways to just start doing yeah. In our leadership role. And when you start doing that, the vision and the direction and the organization will start to come. Yeah. I don't know if you felt that when you were called as a Bishop, but you know, you start off saying, I have no idea what to do, but you start going and doing yeah. And the rest source to.
Come. I remember being that, you know, young elders Corps president, I just wanted to get all the home teaching routes just right. You know, or, or we, we have this tendency of calling another meeting, oh, we gotta get in a room. We'll talk about it. We'll figure out what we gotta do in reality. It's like, you know what, just skip the meeting and just go do some stuff, you know, . Yeah. And then we'll find some things that work and, and that'll organize.
And we examine our motive along the way. I, I have a friend who, um, served for many years, 14 years, I think as the CEO of the Polynesian cultural center. And he told me this story, including the book where president Hinkley, uh, he would meet quarterly with profit and first presidency. And, and, uh, the president Hinkley, the very first meeting my friends said to him sort of jokingly, Hey, you're welcome to come to the PCC. Anytime.
And president Hinkley had just gotten back from just barely had returned from a long arduous world tour he was kind of tired and president Hinkley, joked, and chuckled and said, you know, gosh, if they could, uh, move the Polynesian cultural center closer to the airport, or maybe Hawaii closer to California might be easier to come. And everyone chuckles. And then he said, ply got real serious. And he looked down and he looked back up. He said, but I wanna be, be clear in one thing,
I will never hesitate to do whatever the Lord asks me to do. Wow. And I love that as a way of, I don't know, every answer every question, but let's get going. Let's engage in the work. Yeah. And when you do a lot of things come to together. So I outline, you know, checking your motive and, and make sure that we love those that we serve and that we make sure we do have a, a clear vision that we understand the,
the nature of followership as well as leadership. You know, the savior said, I am about my father's business. President Nelson follows the savior and the inspiration that he gets from the spirit. So we're all leaders and we're also all followers. And that's a, I think a really important practice, this notion of, you know, we can't do it all. And we're called to positions at various times in their life. Some have children, some have jobs, some have financial pressures.
Others are retired. They have, when I was called as Aish by, I had a friend who shared this with me and I, and I actually love this. I think it's true. He said, there are some who have 13 hours a week to give is a Bishop. And there's some who have 50 hours a week to give is a Bishop. And one is not more effective than the other. It's like the principle of loaves and fishes. The Lord will expand us.
He will magnify us. He will make us up to the C. And in the process of that, we, you know, we need to make sure we take care of ourselves. We need to practice balance. We need to have goals. And so I talk about the notion of goals and how we execute that using meetings is a time to instruct and, and give counsel and what the scriptures teach this. I talked about with going and doing, and, and then throughout this whole thing, what do we learn? How can we be better?
How can we evaluate every day and assess next time I'll do this differently. Yeah. So that's the idea of, you know, organizing and managing the work and what the scriptures teach throughout. That. You also talk the teach with power, which I think we, we also see teaching as Sy synonymous with, uh, leading. And is this the section you used? Uh, was it Alma talking to his son, but you, you do it in a context of teaching, right? Which I don't, you don't always cuz he's instructing his son rather.
He's not necessarily giving me a teaching lesson, but you, it frames it well in, in this concept of. Teaching. Yeah. It, it was Alma 38. That's right where he's teaching. Uh Chilon and he's, you know, they're on their mission and, and he shares this important counsel. And it's really interesting as you look at that, through the lens of teaching, it's, you know, how do we, how do we be effective? How do we teach with power? Think about, go back years in your life.
Can you remember a lesson or a talk? Can you. Yeah. I mean like. Years, years later, what is it that causes you to remember that? A lot of times it's maybe a certain example or a metaphor or. So there might be a story, a story. Yeah. There might be a feeling that you felt there might be a memory that you had. There might be an association, maybe it had came at a time in your life where you needed some corrections, some course correction.
There are all kinds of reasons why these things matter to us. And, and Alma does a beautiful job in, in walking through how we do do that. When we teach, we center our life first on Jesus Christ, am I a model? We, we are diligent. You know, we can't give a halfhearted effort. We're temperate. We don't get extreme. We don't use that opportunity to teach to that. Have that be our little soap box about a particular issue. Yeah.
We are on the Lord's errand, not our errand. When we teach, we gotta be wary of pride or boastfulness, you know, and I've spent my career teaching and I will tell you one of the big mistakes that any teacher can make is to have this notion when they teach a good lesson or some to think, well, I'm really good at this. Yeah. and one of the most uncomfortable experiences you can have is saying that to yourself and then trying to teach your next lesson, right.
When it's just, you that's so true when you're not relying upon the Lord and upon the spirit. And so, you know, testify boldly, know your audience though, and to teach with love. So all of these things are things that Alma taught. Chilon you know, how to teach the other idea here. I just think about, as it relates to teaching and I'm gonna use the, I'm gonna use the, uh, modern profits as an example of scripture, right?
Because we're just about ready to go into general conference. And, and what they speak on inspiration is our scripture think about experiences you have with our, with our great general authorities and the connections that you feel to them as you listen to conference. And it's interesting at the end of conference, I'll talk to my family and friends and what stood out.
Everyone has a different thing that stood out something, some topic, some TA speaker spoke to one person where someone else, because of what's happening in their life or their, you know, experiences speaks to a different person. So it's not just about one speaker. They all have that ability to teach.
But I find as I leave a great teaching experience like general conference, there are some things that stand out that I want to emulate when I teach one is I want to leave that with a firm reminder and a firm personal conviction in my savior, Jesus Christ. And my testimony is strengthened in him. Number one, number two, I feel his love. So when I'm listening to a great conference talk, somehow I feel the saviors love when I listen to that great conference talk.
Yeah. Number three, I come away from that. Gosh, I just wanna be better committed to doing and being better. Number four, not only do I feel the saviors love for me, but I also feel that speaker's love for me that matters. And number five, I always feel when I have one of those really powerful, uplifting experiences that that speaker is on the Lord's errand, not his or her own errand, that their motivation,
their reason for doing is very, very clear. And also, I, I think there's a lot that we can draw from, you know, these modern scripture experiences as well. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that's another thing I love to pinpoint. Like not, don't just approach the scriptures, looking for leadership principles, but general conference, which is sort of our hundred day. Scriptures, right? Absolutely. Yes. And there's, uh, oftentimes a lot there to, to consider.
I got a few more questions, but obviously people can pick this up online. It's out, out. Yeah. Ready to go. They can go to, to my publisher, which is Cedar Ford. They can go to Amazon. Uh, I believe they can get it through desert book or through Siegel. Yeah. Awesome. Perfect. I'm curious with like, obviously I love the concept of approaching the scriptures, looking for leadership principles. Oftentimes, you know, in the years I've done leading saints, uh, every once in a while, and these are,
these are definitely the minority. I'll get the response about like, why do we need this, this organization you've created like, no, no, no. Like we were given handbooks and we have the scriptures. I don't need anything else to lead effectively. And you know, then you could lay, present Kimble's quote on that. Like yeah, you see like, all we need is the scriptures, but then you look at the world and the research and there's such remarkable
resources out there that I don't know. I just, can't, there's just so much to benefit, you know, and, and as God has revealed there's truth everywhere, everywhere. Right. And so how do we develop as leaders by not just considering the scriptures or should we just consider the scripture? Well. I don't bifurcate it that way. I don't think it's at this either. Or I think that we are encouraged and maybe even commanded to seek wisdom and learning from all kinds of sources,
including the best books and including great binds. And, and there is truth in lots of different areas and that truth will all point us to Christ. And of course that does not diminish the scriptures at all. In fact, my whole objective in this is to highlight how the scriptures teach this really, really important concept in all aspects of your life. But I, you know, I think you could ask that same question on any topic and say,
well, why do we, why do we have to listen to anyone else on anything? Well, because it all points us in the right direction. Yeah. So, you know, I think that we want to learn, uh, from the scriptures and we want to immerse ourselves in the scriptures and we want to learn what other people say about it and engage in discussions with other thought leaders and talk about it with our loved ones and our family, and then go back to the scriptures and hear what the prophet has to say.
Then go back to the scriptures and take it to the Lord in prayer and then go back to the scriptures. I mean, I think it's all one sort of holistic experience. Yeah. It doesn't by any stretch, minimize the value of, of prophetic counsel or, or scriptural counsel. I think it enhances it. Yeah. I, I love that, uh, the moment where I maybe learn about a concept or a principle, you know,
in a more secular text. And I think if that's true, I'll probably find it in the scriptures and sure enough, a lot of the time, yeah. I find it in the scriptures. And then that just enhances the power of that principle because it wasn't, this person's first thought it was God's thought that then manifests. Elsewhere. You know, it really is interesting how the scriptures become such a,
a conduit for truth and for information and for answers to prayer. I, I, I remember as a missionary, I had the privilege of working with my mission president and served in Philadelphia. And it was the end of, uh, it was October and we were just as a nation getting ready to celebrate the bicentennial of the constitution that was brand new in this calling this new assignment and like a week. And we learned that president Benson, our prophet was going to come out.
So now you can date me. Right. how, how old I am, but he was gonna come out to Philadelphia and speak with the saints and celebrate the bicentennial of the constitution. He was gonna visit with us as missionaries. And I remember my mission president turned to me brand new, greeted my role and said, as El moon, can you teach a leadership session? oh, wow. Great. Well, what would you like me to say? And he said,
follow the spirit. It was really frustrating to me because I, I wish he had given me some specifics and I'm telling you, Kurt, I did not procrastinate. I just couldn't. I delved into every book. I could find everything. I couldn't think of anything to say. And so I'd go back to my mission present. He just smiled and said, follow the spirit. And I remember the night before the prophet was to come,
I'm kneeling next to my little mattress. That's on floor. I wouldn't say bed, but it's not even a bed as mission. We just sleep on mattresses on the floor and I'm pouring my heart out to the Lord saying, and me father, you know that I I've, I haven't put this off. I, and I had, I don't always get answers this way, but sometimes in times of need, we get answers in a certain way. And I heard these voice, these words in my head as clearly as day. And it was this elder moon.
You teach people every day that they will get answers by reading the book of Mormon, read the book of Mormon. I'd finish my prayer. I jumped in my bed. I opened my scriptures. I don't remember where I was in the book of Mor, but I began to read and I had the most amazing, remarkable experience where all of a sudden I knew what I was supposed to say. And it may have been what I was reading or maybe it was just because I was reading, but the scriptures become the way we learn. Right.
And then we rounded out with, with other experience in our life, but always go back the. Scriptures. Yeah. All right. Well, if there's like, you could only share one leadership story or principle from all the scriptures, uh, at least for this week, what is it. This week? You know, there are so many, and it is hard to narrow it down. I mentioned Gideon, the reluctant leader who became this mighty man of valor. We,
we have Moses who I love so much. We have, we have, you know, Cory, Anton, um, is a long answer question cause I'm gonna get to specific. But you know, one of my favorite sections in the whole book of Mormon is where Cory, Anton, who's made some mistakes while serving his mission. And he's serving with his father and his brothers and he's caused great harm. And Alma says, listen, you've caused great harm to our efforts. And,
and yet the Lord through his father reminds Corton. You have a work to do. And I love there's a scripture later on in, in Alma where it says that the church was happy and prospered and Corton was engaged in the work or something that affects like, you know, it's never over and we can make grave fakes, but we can still be forgiven and move forward and be, you know, be leaders and be leaders in all aspects of our life.
So there's so many examples on and on and on, but this is one that I know we've all heard before, but for me, it's worth repeating because I see evidence of this in so many places, the savior said the key to the 99 is when I said it a few minutes ago, he, he visits the people in the land bountiful. And you think about this experience for being there that day. I mean it's 600 years from when Lehigh left Jerusalem. Think about that in context of our life. Do you have any sense of what,
what was happening in the world 600 years ago? No, I, in the 14 hundreds, I. Probably wouldn't even recognize. That. I mean, and I, I went back and I actually did a little research on that and I'm like, yeah, I maybe have heard. And maybe I should. I'm sure there are people in the world who have devoted their life to studying, you know, that part of history, but it is such a long time ago, we having have a hard time putting a point of reference and that's how long it
was from those people. Then to when Lehigh came go, go all the way back 600 years. And they've been told, yeah, at some point in time, you know, the savior himself is gonna come here and the profits had reinforced it throughout the time. But I mean, I'm sure at some point along those 600 years, someone said really, is that really gonna happen? And you get to be there that day, that momentous day after waiting 600 years, and what will the savior say to you?
So they hear his voice and they've gone through this great Turtin and you know, all the bad stuff that's happened and things, the darkness and things have sort of settled down a little bit and they hear this voice and they don't understand it. They hear it again. They don't understand. And the third time they hear this voice and they understand it. And the father introduces the son, whom am I? Well pleased. And, and Jesus comes down and he says to them, basically,
three really important things that, you know, he's here. So he announces in, in his way, his own divinity that he lives, that he hadn't forgotten the covenant. In other words, he remembered them that they weren't forgotten. None of us are forgotten. We're all known, we're all number, right. And then he teaches them and he pulls them up one by one. The first thing he does of all the things that he could do after all of this time, he gives them, it says one by one,
this one by one experience. And you know, others have said this as well. You do the math. And if they each had, you know, 10 or 15 seconds or whatever it was, I mean, that's a five to seven hour experience that morning. And yet that's the leadership lesson.
He is teaching them that you matter to me that I have not forgotten you, that I know you, I think as leaders, gosh, if we don't remember anything else, the example of the savior who connected individually with those, he served that they knew that he knew them and that he loved them. What a remarkable yeah. Remarkable gift. And so you see actually you see evidence of that one by one throughout the scriptures to be that one by one leader. Yeah. That's powerful. All right.
Last question I have for you is that as you reflect on your own personal journey in leadership yeah. In the church now of outside the church, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ. Boy. Great question. You know, I'm, I'm the CEO of my company right now, now,
and I work with other executives and it takes time to do that. But I, I like doing that because it allows me to look in the mirror every time I talk with anyone about leadership, I get the privilege of saying, and so, okay, Sean, how are you doing, right? How are you doing? I truly believe that Jesus is the perfect leader. I love the title of president Kimble's article that he is in fact, the perfect leader that he set, the tone, he set the pace.
He was firm when he needed to be firm, but he was always loving. He was always attentive to the needs of the, of the individual. He taught us that it doesn't matter where we are in life. We can still always turn to him regardless of what we have done. I mean, think of Alma, the younger, do the math when Alma, the younger had his experience with the angel that helped him course correct. Right. His father Alma senior passed away that same year.
Okay. 19 years later, Alma was, you know, taken up and had three, at least three grown sons who are also missionaries. I mean, Alma was not a 17 year old, you know, wayward teenager when he had that experience, I believe. And I think the scriptures teach us that Alma was 40 years old or 50 years old. And he had grown children more than one. Right. And as firm and as entrenched as he was in his bad ways, it was never too late. I think that's what the savior teaches us,
that we can always turn to him. So as individuals, we need to remember that. And as leaders, I think we have to have that front and center in our minds and in our hearts, that that is our job is to help people wherever they are, whenever they are know that they can turn to him. That that's the whole point of all of this. That concludes this episode of the leading saints podcast. We'd love to hear from you about your questions or thoughts or comments.
You can either leave a comment on the, uh, post related to this [email protected] or go to leading saints.org/contact and send us your perspective or questions. If there's other episodes or topics you'd like to hear on the leading saints podcast, go to leading saints.org/contact and share with us the information there.
And we would love for you to share this with any individual you think this would apply to, especially maybe individuals in your ward council or other leaders that you may know who would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed. And remember to attend the restore gathering happening October 7th and eighth in salt lake city, visit faith matters.org/restore and use promo code leading saints for a 20% discount.
It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.