The Power of Stillness in Leadership | An Interview with Jacob Hess, Carrie Skarda, Kyle Anderson, and Ty Mansfield

Have you ever heard of sc velocity? This is a mental health concern that is impacting more Latter saints than you think. Sc velocity is religious, obsessive compulsive disorder. Where individuals are hyper obsessed about their worthiness and repentance. Sam baxter, a former bishop sat down with me to talk about his lifelong struggle with sc velocity and how he got treatment. You can watch this interview for free in the mentally healthy Saints library by going to leading saints dot org slash 14.

This gives you 14 days, free access to Sam baxter interview about sc velocity and 25 plus other interviews about to those, who struggle with mental health. The content is priceless for leaders. So visit leading saints dot org slash 14 for free access. The following episode is a throwback episode. When that was published previously and was extremely popular to see the details of when this was originally published See the show notes. Enjoy this throwback episode.

Okay, everyone. Let's take a moment. Stay your deep breath. Mike, seriously, I know you're driving your car mowing your lawn or something, but let's just take a breath. Alright. Just feel the silence for a minute. Feels good. Yeah. We're just gonna be in this episode. We're just gonna be as we listen to this. Okay. Now, you're probably wondering why is Kurt starting off this episode

so weird. Well, because it's the focus of our episode, and I'll get to that in a minute, But I want to just let you know that my name is Kurt Frank. I'm the host of leading saints of the leading saints podcasts, and we strive to help Latter saints be better prepared to lead. And we do that through various resources like this, the podcast and also the website at leading saints dot org. I'll also make sure that

you are subscribed to the newsletter. You can go to the leading same dot org slash subscribe, and you can you can be part of the newsletter as well, which comes out every week. Where we talk about unique leadership perspectives and keep you up to date with all the content that's... That we released through leading saints. So that's a good 1 stop shop for making sure that you're up to date with all the content that's coming out was leading saints. Alright. Another deep breath.

Let's just be. We're just here. Okay again, I'm being kinda silly, but the reason I'm doing this is this episode is about stillness about mindfulness. And I had the awesome privilege of welcoming 4 dynamic authors into my home studio here. Carrie Scar, who is actually the daughter of Wendy Ul who we've had on the episode many times. So Carrie came, was part of this interview, Jacob Pass as well.

Kyle Anderson, who actually joined us remotely leaf from South Carolina and Thai Mansfield who is also in studio. They are the c authors of a book called the power of stillness. Mindful living for Latter saints. And this is definitely a must read. It is such a profound book that helped me just so much as a person. As a ladder saint as a disciple of Christ Better connect with divine. And I know you kinda hear, like, mindfulness, meditation, it's so all sounds Voodoo woo, but

but give this episode a chance. I think you'll really appreciate it, and we talk about stillness and mindfulness in the context of being a leader. How we introduce to our awards, especially if we're a bishop early site president, an individual who's meeting with people going through a difficult time, or seeking repentance. What is mindfulness and stillness? What role does that play? Now, a lot of these concepts

feel a bit Nuance. And so it may be hard to really apply some of these things are talking about, but just just absorb it, just be with this episode and consider the concepts talked about and maybe come back and revisit it, but definitely go check out the book and consider these principles of how they might expand your gospel experience. Your experience with Christ. Your experience with your heavenly father. Experience with the atonement of Jesus Christ. I

think it's so valuable. So you're gonna enjoy this episode. Hopefully as much as I did. But here's my interview with Carrie, Jacob pass, Kyle Anderson and Thai Mansfield, the authors of the power of stillness, mindful living for Latter saints. Today I have in my home studio, 3 sort of 4 fantastic authors who c wrote the the book, the power of stillness, mindful living for Latter saints. And those authors are Carrie Scar. Is that I you say your name Garrett? That's right?

Nailed. Alright. Jacob Hess, and Thai Mansfield, and then, Kyle Anderson, Kyle, where are you calling in from. Cl in South Carolina. Beautiful. And feel free as we go through this, you know, just jump in whenever we wanna make room and time sometimes with a panel. We we step on each, but that's alright. So who wants to say? Where where did the the impetus of this project begin? Jacob, Everybody's looking at you? I don't even remember now.

You were meditating 1 day, and I was exposed to mindfulness in graduate school. As a way to help people with depression. And I was struck at how calm the people who meditate were was freaky calm. Yeah. It I was, like, what? And they had bumper stickers that said, what would Buddha do? And it seemed on the face to be a buddhist thing? Mh.

Feels that way. I mean, Like, well, if you wanna get into this, you have to go out, and kinda of get into another tradition, But after being exposed to it, I would come back to my own faith tradition and say an wait a minute, you know, we have a lot of excuses to stop. Mh. And not do things. Why are we talking about the gospel like, there's a lot of things to do.

Yeah. So like Solely, it started to see in how I read the scriptures and how I interpreted things, and I started to see things I hadn't seen before because I had been exposed and trained as a meditation teacher. And then I met Kyle because Kyle was blogging about it and Carrie because Carrie was doing retreats on it and Ty because Ty was in training. We just kind of all brought together. The same angel appeared at all of our bedside and said write this book.

Nice. And I guess I need to highlight some of your background. I mean you're not just 4 people who like to write about meditation. I mean there's some there's some education in your background. So, Jacob, what's your background as far as professionally in with your education? Got my Phd in clinical community psychology, with focus on kind of a mindfulness based approach to depression. Yeah. And day, Carrie? I am a clinical

psychologist as well. I'm practicing, and I have a private practice, and I've definitely brought mindfulness and meditation approaches into the clinical work that I do with individuals and couples and families. Nice. And time. So my education, my master's is my doctor are in marriage family therapy.

My undergraduate what was in Chinese studies, and Never thought I'd I come back to that once I left it, but it was in my master's program again, through kind of the mental health ends that I was first exposed. You know, it's hard to not experience it, you know, when my world. Is mormon. There's lot saying. It's hard to not. You know, see and experience everything through that lens. And I had some very specific spiritual experiences that I feel like we're guiding me

in that direction. Cool. And Tay, you've been on the podcast before, actually. Right. With your work with North star and and things like that. And you're presenting this year at nor star on this topic. Is that right? The conference? The 3 of... Oh, the 3 you. Cool. So I'll see you again there? Good. Kyle, what about you. What's your background?

Well, I'm a Phd of professor of Chinese and Asian studies and currently an administrator and global partnerships and engagement, those sorts of things that Cl University. So I actually come to this mindfulness that meditation actually through some textual traditions and philosophy through my agent studies in literature. Nice. So when we when we talk about stillness and mindfulness. I mean, what how would you just define that to a

latter day saints? Because we hit... You know, we use terms like you know, pondering, prayer, these types of things. So And so I would imagine most Latter saints when they hear this? They think, yeah. You know they think it back to Buddha or something? So how do you even begin to introduce this topic to a Latter Saint audience? I actually, like ties definition of mindfulness of the guessed. Alright. You can me you do the definition will walter you're gonna have to

add take it outside. What my compassionate presence. No compassionate for. I like that. I really like that. So I think 1 of the I think 1 of the 1 of the difficulties with this is that you have different traditions that all kind of intersect. So a lot of times even... And we've had some of this conversation together, Like, you know, the power stillness isn't about trying to get everyone to meditate. Right? We think about this as

all. Yeah. You know meditation. But mindfulness really is, you know, I've used the terms compassionate presence, you know, Jacob in the book, he, you know, he was... I remember he were quoting, but, you know, compassionate affection and awareness of the moment. Right? Or present in the moment. So there's... And John, you know, there's a number of different definitions, but you can... Whatever you're doing, you can do it mindful. You

know, it... It's not just, like, you know, sitting in a lotus position, coming, Mantra. Right? And I think that's where it becomes especially accessible because, you know, to latter saints because you know, some people are gonna struggle to even want to carve out time to just sit in stillness. But if we're talking about being with each other, with greater print with greater presence, less distraction,

parenting more mindful. I mean, any, you know, rituals that we talk about in the in the book being really present with the sac as opposed to, you know, texting or, distracted usually with us. It's trying to get kids. Stopping kids from biting Yeah the labor kids, but but there's... But there's a sense of, like, all of it can be. So you have... So you have these sort of Eastern traditions and really the the terminology of mindfulness

tends to come from the east. You have this very rich Christian conte tradition that isn't borrowing from the east. They're, like, you know, reclaiming and retaining you know, this early Christian tradition of meditation that has been lost in several strands of Christian thought. And so a lot of our work in our thinking has been this sort of the intersection of all of these different ways of thinking about mindfulness, meditation, conte thought, conte practice.

Pondering prayer, you know, and where that those things intersect with daily life, but also, you know, more specific religious practices that we can do. Yeah. What would you end to that Carrie? Men, first of all, and secondly, I think when we look at Christ's life, we actually see a lot of examples of him. Being very present in the moment and very medi and present with how he approaches the

people that he's working with. 1 of my favorite stories of Christ being present is the story where he's on his way to heal a child. And the crowds are pressing around him. There's a lot of urgency about getting to that future moment of healing that child. And the woman touches the hem of his garment, and he's so present in his body that even in the midst of being directed towards the future to this future thing. He's so present that he pauses and is able to have this very intimate healing moment

with her. And to me, that is a the epitome of mindfulness that we can be so present in our bodies that even in the rush, of pressing demands, we can have space to really have healing moments with each other. Yeah. And and touching on something with it Ties. I mean, this isn't about necessarily, like, 1 more thing to do. Right? It's not about. Now we... You know, not only should you do read your scriptures and go to the temple and do these things, but you should also meditate for

know, this amount of time each day. But it's more of just being present. Right? And of whatever it is you're doing, whatever action or purpose that has just be present and and mindful about that. Right? And present in a particular way. Right? It's kind of the... As we talked about in the book, the word busy, the character for busy the death or loss of heart or heart killer, and the the character for mindfulness is to bring the heart into the present. Mh.

Right? And so anything that we're doing is or bring is doing it more compassionate with greater awareness, more heart, more tender, All those things, that's really the essence of. Yeah. The the word mindfulness is a buzz word now. Kind of, like, everybody uses it. And so some people here, like, it's it's like, the word empowerment, it means everything, like, to some people. But it's not the same as meditation. It's bigger. It's not just a skill.

It's more of a way of being, and it helps me to also define the opposite of mindfulness. Like, the opposite of mindfulness would be when your body and your mind in a different place. You lie down at night and you're exhausted and your head is like, rum about work the day or you're talking to somebody at church, Carrie uses this example in the book and you're, like, having a conversation apparently, but your head is is somewhere else.

And so mindfulness is about synchronizing the body and mind so that you're in the same place at the same time. And for a theology, that says being alive means to have your body and your spirit you're in 1 place, you know, you can think of mindfulness as a way to help us be more alive, experience the richness of our moments here. Yeah. Not in 2 places at the same time. Yeah. Oh? Yeah. Kai. What do we I'll leave you out here? Any any thoughts that good at... That has been my understanding of

My experience too. What what I often been trying to do, especially in because I can always be with my friends. My mindfulness friends out in Utah is that I when I'm when I'm talking about this to members of the church in particular, I try to think of words that might already be in our tradition that aren't quite as sale salient, but are still understood. And so when I think of concepts such as reverence. Right? Reverence somehow is that a cross section with mindfulness.

Peace, stillness, the piece, you know, the peace I I leave on you. Right? The peace, reverence, and meditation. We actually use that term pondering. All these things are at cross section of what we're talking about. So As you said, Kurt, we're not adding extra things to do, but we firmly believe we're not really adding new concepts either. We're just adding a new kind of attention perhaps or raising attention to the things where we already prize in value in our tradition.

Yeah. That's definitely been my experience that whenever it feels like you discover a new truth, you realize that that truth was always always there. It was always in the bible or in the book of mormon or in the gospel, but now it's sort of to the soup... Surface you've brought it and highlighted it. Right? Mh. That's correct. So what would you say to Bishop? I mean, or or a busy leader. I remember being a bishop, if you know, on a a

busy Sunday. I'm there. It seems like a, you know, 10:12 hour, some some Sundays and just going from 1 thing that next, you know, and and I'm just taking information I'm processing. So obviously, it wouldn't hurt for that maybe take 10 minutes or or whatever to just maybe be still in that that office or or really leverage the time of the Sacramento. But even during the Sacramento, you're thinking, okay, as, you know, is everybody getting the Sacramento

and, you know, is it going well? So how would you coach or what advice would you give to a busy bishop or least study present who's just so overwhelmed on a typical Sunday? A good bishop is trying to be like the savior minister to his walk, and 1 of the things that hit us really hard in writing the book was how often Jesus stops and gets away. Mh. Like, when we when we think, what would Jesus do? We don't

think... Well, he would pause and and contemplate, but 9 different times in the new testament, including right after John the Baptist died. Stops. He gets away he retreats. He has a practice of pun his doing with non doing. So not only are we not adding something to do, we're we're making a case that a gospel lifestyle itself could become a rhythm between action and pausing. Action and pausing. And we have a lot

of excuses to do it. We don't even have to, you know, people I teach in my meditation class data where I'm gonna find time to stock. You know? I am Gonna fit this in my schedule. The Latter saints. We already have it built in. It's called prayer, personal prayer. Scripture study, am scripture study, am me, Sabbath, 8 night, temple, rather than these things all been things to get done? What if they were excuses to? H. Yeah. And stop. I love that. And breathe and be in our bodies and be with

people love. Like that's not how I have thought about the gospel, all often. When I do, it's just whole lot more. Yeah. And I love these terms that we... You know, we already have this built in, but sometimes we just... We sort of corrupt those moments with more doing. Right? Like, what my ideal scripture study looks is I... You, I have 4 books open and I'm I'm drawing parallels, and I'm becoming more like a By religion professor in. And, you know, I'm

learning what this... Board means in hebrew. Right? But just realizing and it's been such a remarkable experience that that the Lord taken me down during over the last 12 months or so where he's just sort of telling me, you know, when you do your prayer and your your scripture study. Just stop. Just just b, you know, just be present and don't worry about how many verses you get through, but just say In this moment, I'm not trying to be a scripture scholar, but I'm

trying to connect with the divine. And that's where I want you. That's where I can connect with you. Right? Any other thoughts that Yeah. Kirk, could can I make a comment on that too? Yep. I think a lot of that has to do with what we need personally. Right? That the list that Jacob listed and we can add a bunch of things to those lists.

Mindfulness, we believe is a way that will help us gain greater access and bring us more in tune with the holy spirit, and we all in our tradition believe that that is where we all wanna be personally. We wanna be so close in connection with the spirit and heavenly father that we know

what we're doing next. Right? And so for me, when I think of a bishop saying, well, I know, I got all these things to do, or when I read the scriptures, I feel like I should be a script I'm gonna use myself here, You know, as someone who is an academic, the last thing I want my religion to be is look like my work. I'm just gonna say that. Yeah. Like, I don't want... I don't I don't want it to be reading a bunch of books and cross references.

So what I need actually is that scripture study to not be like that. It needs to be more of a quiet union. So maybe what we're talking about a little bit is that kind of quiet and that piece allows for that individual need that we all have. And maybe a bishop, who doesn't you know, have that the that kind of intellectual stimulation, the regular life. Maybe that's this... Maybe that's what time is for. Maybe it it is for books that are open. Right?

But maybe in another tax that he has, it might not need to be so busy. It's a it's about that balance. Right? Love that. Any other thoughts as far as this, leveraging some of these built in things and sometimes that we we corrupt them with our own traditions or habits.

Yeah. I I wanna... If I could add a piece there, I think 1 of the things that Jacob talks about that I that I love and that I think a lot about as he says, you know, he talks about when people know go through fake transitions or struggling with a gospel. That often, it's not the gospel that people struggle with. It's an impoverished experience where the Yeah. Where is a a huge the point that came out to me in

the bucket. Yeah. Yeah. Or what they're rejecting is not the gospel an impoverished experience of it. And whether it's... You know, and I've worked with people even a in a therapeutic context who have been who have served in high levels of leadership who have left the church of have experienced faith transitions, you know, and part of, you know, I think with some of them, it... There is a loss... There is a a getting lost in the

doing. Right? And there is so much to do, and there's always so much to do that that whether it's a leader or a member, if our experience with the gospel is impoverished, we are going to be more vulnerable. Right? And so 1 thing, obviously, leaders need to stay in a nourished nourishing experience of the gospel bid. If they are mindful, right? If we're att to what's going on in our wars and our congregations and we can see that other people are

struggling. Or maybe, you know, when we're really att to what's going on, we can, you know, pick up on that and then and then administer to it. Right? And if I could just quote, president Mckay, because there's a statement from him on meditation that I've always loved and keep coming back to. And he said this, he said we paid too little attention to the value of meditation, a principle of devotion. In our worship, there are 2 elements.

1 is spiritual comm arising from our own meditation, the other instruction from others. Particularly those who have authority to guide us. Of the 2, the more profitable, respectively is the meditation meditation is the language of the soul. So if he's if he's saying of these 2 things, spending time and sol and comm with

Dd. And being, you know, listening to talks, listening to lessons, sitting and talks sitting in lessons, I would say disproportionately, most members of the church are far outweighed on the side of, you know, just sitting in talks and listening to instruction from others rather than sitting in. Community. And I think if there's anything, you know, a shift in our culture that's gonna be more valuable. It's seeing that

doing it. Right? And obviously, you know, teaching that so that more saints are spending more time in relationship with Deity than just in doing religion. Yeah. Love that. Any other the thoughts. Yeah. Mh as Kai talking about that, it reminds me of a time where I was in a ward council, and they were talking about how to prepare oneself to be a good minister. And this idea came to this what we're talking about here was in my mind. This idea of we have to come to the savior

feet. And be nourished by him. And then we are strengthened to be able to go out and nourish other people. So that idea was in my mind, but I didn't communicate it very clearly and and what came across to the bishop in that word council was out, we need to pray first and pray what we can do for our minister administering person and then go minister to them. But that wasn't really the idea Wasn't about... Let me pray to figure out

what to do. Mh. It was more let me sit in this comm prayer for even just a few minutes and feel that connection to my heavenly father, that then allows me to bring that energy into my ministry. Right. So it's not about another thing on the to do list. It's really about taking this contemplate of time, conte time, Mh. To sit with the savior and allow him to strengthen us. Yeah. Regardless of even inspiration comes

where that. Prompting comes, but you're just being in a state where You can better administer to people or better connect with the present state so that you can move forward. Right? Oh, I love it. I gonna rip up from what Carrie said kyle are you first? I'm. I'm sorry sorry I... And I would just say that's where the clarity comes. I'm a big do I a bad habit of doing all the time. And that's 1 of the reasons why I'm devoted to mindfulness.

But we fear that, I always fear that, okay If I stop things will get out of control. If I stop the next thing on the list falls out. But the truth of the matter is, there's always an infinite number of things to do an infinite number of people to see. So what we need is the clarity. What we need is clarity and priority and those moments of silence, the subtraction from the activity going away As Christ did, or

as Joseph did in his life. Going ways where we gain that clarity as a leader to then with great confidence bolstered by the spirit to go do that thing that we know is need. Beautiful. And to clarify, this is not about sitting around and not getting stuff done. Right. Mindfulness folks get a lot done. Yeah. But when you do things from that place of calm and resourceful, there more... There's more power

to them. So what I would add is I notice in my own life, when I get really en immersed in my schedule I noticed my attention is sort of centered on the calendar, or David Brooks talks about, like, always been on the clock, you know? So my attention is actually centered on my calendar, not on the the inspiration in the moment. And so a litmus test for me is am I interrupt? Mh. Like, it what... Can somebody run into me at work?

Or can my child come knock on my office door at home and interrupt me, or is something else kinda like, I'm mean, driven by something else. And I've I've decided that for me, 1 1 way that helps me do this is rather than I've got a hundred things to do today. I like to, in the morning in comm, push back on all this stuff, and and and really sit with the ray reality. There's only 1 thing I need to do today. There's only 1 thing on my calendar.

And that's whatever God wants me to do and there there's a lot of parts and pieces to that. Yeah. But then it it simplifies things. And there's less madness in my head. You know, It's like, I can do this. I don't have 80 things to do. I've got 1 thing to do. And my task is to kinda moment by moment, kinda su that out, and the calendar just helps me find the answer to that question. I'm not obeying this calendar. I'm obeying what whatever,

however the spear are I'm trying to. That reminds me of a great story of the savior where he's teaching, which He's teaching AAA crowd of people in a home, and, which I can think of nothing really more important than listening to the savior teaching but he he is more focused on on following the spirit, and he is interrupt. All of a sudden the roof comes off and they're lowering a man in the middle of his teaching to be healed. Right? And Christ doesn't say, hey. I have Sermon

prepared. I'm teaching you, like, there's nothing more important than that. Off your smartphone you Made. I mean, he's so again, so present that he can pivot and, turn to what is unfolding in the moment. He's not trapped in his calendar agenda. Yeah. And and and work with what is unfolding in the moment and I love that example of the savior too. Okay. So with this concept of, am I interrupt, you're you're cent...

You're stating am I am I present with the task at hand and focused as to some level, but am I still open for God to step in and direct me? Is that the the idea? Exactly. Okay. Yeah. But I... Others may say, well, yeah. I'm interrupt, and that's what's driving me crazy. My phone's going off and this Coworker worker keeps coming in because so sort that balance of Am I interrupt to the right things? Is that... Yeah. Where is your

heart? Yes. Is your heart on getting your checklist done or on, what is most ex ex and need and and and I I really like what Jacob alluded to earlier although it was in passing this idea of rhythms of stillness and engagement. And that there are times where we are bus and anxiously engaged in the work. But we can't... If we don't balance that with these rhythms of moments of stillness which might look like a bishop sitting for literally 60 seconds before he brings the next person into his

office. We don't balance that with these little moments of stillness, then we we become un focused on the spirit. Yeah. We often reference, you know, shower revelation that that I got this prompting in the shower and we think why does this always have in the shower? What is it about these this these tiles that make work conducive some revelation. But in reality, the only moment in our day where we've we've cut ourselves off and we're still for them. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

And I like how Carrie keeps pointing back to the savior, But time with Ab was 1 of the most important things to Jesus. We sometimes say like, well, he was the son of God. That's why he was so powerful, but we reference AAA great writer who points out in in the book that some of Jesus power we we might also understand, connect to his willingness to build in this time.

And I I have a temptation to think of my morning worship, scriptures, prayers, kind of a different from all this other work I need to do. But I... Again, it has had been helpful to say this is the foundation for all the work. It's the engine. Like, if it if I'm not grounded in what in my heart in mind with God, I could go and do a bunch of stuff today. Who knows whether it's really in alignment with God at all or connected his power. Yeah. You know?

Anything else that that... Another little tip that comes to mind us as you're talking about leaders who are in that crunch of busy ness with on a Sunday, for example, is medi will focus on, you know, a candle or a sound calm or something like that. But I think we can meditate on the person in front of us, meaning we're bringing our full attention.

To that person who's sitting in front of us without thinking about the next thing that's coming or what happened this morning, but really bringing our full attention to the person in front of us. And that's something that has been helpful to me. Is in even in those small conversations at church to really bring my full attention to that conversation to that person in front of me. And there is something calming about approaching each of those people that way, you don't

feel as rushed. You feel that feeling of being present is grounding in and of itself. Yeah. I love that because Again, you're not saying that, okay, If if a bishop is busy, and he has all these appointments. He needs to take 5 minutes between every appointment and and meditate. But you're saying is when that person walks in, you are 100 percent present. Yeah. With that individual. And that can be your meditation. Right. Am meditating on presence with this person and in this

moment. Yeah. Love but and even I think of, like, in Sacramento meeting. Right? Like, there? I hear from a lot of leaders who are always asked of, how do we get rid of smartphones like, we gotta gotta, you know, and we even make announcements, please, you know, silence your phones and put them away, focus on the savior or whatever and... And, of course, you know, do what you want.

I don't know if I don't know how effective that is, but but being the type of person, whether you're leader or not that when you're in secret meeting, you're present. And if somehow through your phone that help should be more present, maybe reading a description over over great. But the focus of being present in Sunday school in Sacramento meeting in in all that we do. Right? That's that's mindfulness

That's some meditation? Absolutely me. Cool. Anything else before we move on to my next question here? Yeah. 1 piece, if I could just add kind of coming back to some of carrie comments on ministry. There's a a catholic theologian, henry now 1 who I really like and he wrote a piece called moving from

sol to to community to ministry. And he was drawing on this episode in the life of the savior where, you know, he's talking about the way the order, not just what the savior did, but the order in which he did it. You know, he went up into the mount and he commune with God. Commune with Ab. And then he came down and surrounded himself in community, and then they went out into ministry.

And he said the order... There's lots of reasons that that order important but 1, our our core, our core strength, our core motivations have to be god, and if they're not, then there's going to be something disordered about everything that flows out from it. So if I am looking... So if I go to community first, and I'm looking from community for that, which only God can give me. I'm gonna be vulnerable to some kind of unhealthy toxic relationships.

Or it's just unhealthy expectations. Right? I'm disappointed that. My spouse can't be everything for me. You know, that god can be. Or the the word can't do everything or be everything. And so this idea of sol suit first and then everything else will flow out from that That. Ministry really when we're in a good place. Both spiritually and in community, we then go out together and change the world. That that orders. Yeah. I I love that that concept because I I know my day to day life.

I I have these little these little troll tasks that are just, like, begging for my attention. Right? And and it's so tempting to just jump in and just start you know, checking some of these box off and and moving forth my day, but it's more difficult sometimes to just stop and say, no, I'm going to... I'm gonna connect first I'm gonna have that sol first, and then I'll come down. You know? And I think of... Is it oh, what's the profit Will not come down from I'm doing a good work?

You know, and this this concept of coming down in in the scriptures is all over. Right? And that... It's they're such as powerful principle. I think as M and I have that that that talks about You know, I'm going to... I'm doing a great work. I'm connecting to sol, and then I'll get to that stuff. Right? It's not about not getting stuff done, you'll get to it, but you have to start in the right place. Right? There's this great quote from C Lewis. I it's my... I think it's my favorite Christian

definition of what we're talking about. He says, the task of a Christian always starts first thing in the morning when you wake up and all the tasks in your day rush at you like wild animals. In your job is to push them all back. Yeah. So that the quieter gentle spirit flows into you. And then that... I mean, it's exactly what you're saying and you articulated beautifully tie. Then that flow takes over everything. We all know what it's like. To jump out of the bed out of bed and let those wild

animals just carry us away. Yeah. Like, I know that you know how that feels to do a whole day like that. It's kind of a depleted scarcity mindset day. Right? That is not a gentle soft spirit in those days for I. And I would I would imagine if you has most bishop. They feel like they're Sunday. I mean, a lot of... I've heard a lot of bishop talk about the knot in their

stomach on Saturday night. When they wake up and those wild animals carry off, You know, And here they are supposed to have this, you know, special experience and deeper connection with God and these things and... But they're just being carried off by these wild animals. And I've had the opportunity to interview Greg Mc mckinnon, the author of essential, and he talks about this in question of of sitting down and asking you asking yourself what matters

most? And you can ask that question until you beat off all these these wild animals, so you can get to a place of saying, okay. They're over there now. Now what matters spouse. And I will approach that animal and handle it. Right? That's awesome. I0I was gonna say, and what what you all said, especially what Jacob just got off. Finishing was pretty solemn. I have AIA little bit of a tech hack that helps me with this. So I'm I'm tied to my

computer like most of us. Whether, in your job or or in the church and my browser has something like 20 tabs open. And the first 3 on the left or have to do with, you know, morning devotion and morning writing and scripture things like that. And I read left to right. If your Chinese or Japanese, you might put those tabs on the right but they're on the left. So they're they're there waiting for me before all the wild... Other wild animal tabs. Yeah. You definitely built fences for those things.

Right? Boundaries is so important in our human experience, and that's... That goes along with tasks on just with people in our life. Right? Going back to... Jacob, what, you talked about with, you know, and, I guess, it it goes back to the wild animal concept of, you know, you need to put these to the side first, and it's not about just getting the 80 things done on our checklist. But what about? I mean, when we have audacious goals, and we to get stuff done,

You know? That... That... That's the part of me that's sort of screaming inside as you say that. Like, no, But I I really need to get 10 things done today. And if I don't get those 10 things done, I'm gonna fall behind and anything to help us out, just feel more comfortable with the state of mind of I'm just having 1 thing to do and that is the will of god. But my my answer would be a very simple question, which is what is the purpose of life? Yeah. I say that a little facet. I mean, really,

how we we'd... How we organize our lives reflects our poorest values. Right? Our core values. And when we're organizing ourselves in f frantic only task oriented ways, then we are sort of missing that bigger purpose of why we're here. And Sometimes we have to ask ourselves more specific questions, why am I organizing my life in a f way? Why am I choosing to approach my time? Where I'm over budget on what my time out actually is. And and realign ourselves to those really core values.

Yeah. I would add that I've realized on many occasions, I have brought my big plans to God. Taking for granted that this is... He needs to get on board with it, like, it's so important. I gotta get this done. And I've realized that in some cases, I don't know for sure if this is really what he wants. I just think it's a great idea. And it's helped me to understand that in some cases, doing more is being dis. Mh. If to use 1 of the heavy

words. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And that if I'm going to follow god's will. It actually involves taking good things, good better best and taking them out back and and shooting them in the head. I'm really bad at that. I don't wanna kill anything good. Good. Anything good. Right? But it's sometimes like getting off of the board job or, like, say no to a family dinner or this or that, like, things, I felt more peace in in cutting back.

Yeah. It's been helpful. Yeah. It takes me to, a quote, I often share from President Hi. That he said unnecessary sacrifice is evil. And... I mean the use term is strong as evil, You know? And because we we get caught up in this in the church of unnecessary sacrifice. Right?

That only do we need to whole or put together Christmas party, but this needs to be off the hook Like we need we need to be decorated to the to the t's and, you know, and it has to be something more and or our priest may come to us with the calling and we feel like, well, I'm I'm supposed to say yes. But it... We have to get in the state of mind of saying, where... How can this over burden me to be unnecessary sacrifice that I missing this this mindfulness that's

really gonna propel me forward? Actually had a New Year's resolution to be less efficient. And I'm like, oh, wow. Because Like, I I've noticed like, getting a lot of things done does something for me. Like, almost an addictive quality. Like, I feel like a good person. Yeah. It's validating getting more done, getting it faster. And I don't wanna live that way. I get excited thinking maybe I can do more of what God really wants me to do. Not just what's in my head. Yeah. Yeah.

There can be a pride element to it. Right? Like, nobody else could do this as well as I can. Nobody could throw that party as well as I can. Instead of recognizing that I can do my little piece and that there are lots of people who can contribute little pieces to the world. And I don't have to do all of it, and I'm not being asked to do all of. I'm being asked to do the 1 little piece that the Lord wants me to

do. Yeah. And not feel like so proud of my own self that I can have that I must do all of it because nobody else could do it as well as I can. Yeah. Yeah. And I love this concept. I'll lick it Next, but I just wanna mention, like, just this concept of of, I'm gonna be 20 percent less efficient today. And what that does is it creates space. Right? It it slows things down and then you maybe get that 1 thing done and it's lunch lunchtime, and you think, I don't know

what I'm gonna do. But so maybe, I'll take a walk or maybe Maybe I'll I'll just do something else. Right? And that that goal of less. Sounds really uni american. It's like, how could you that? Sort of insulting me here. But but the but I wanna say, like, what makes it better is the things you do, your obsession becomes not getting it all done. It's getting what God wants are you done with his power. So the things you end up doing are much more powerful. Right? Yeah. Owe 1 of my favorite past

teachers. He's actually an evangelical. He gets up in in front of his congregation, he says, look. I could give you a Sermon today. I know I could. I could put somewhere. I don't wanna do that. He said, I'm obsessed with trying to figure out his gods power behind me and what I'm telling you. That's my obsession. He said, I could just put words on a paper. I could entertain you here. I wanna do that. My obsession is, am I doing saying what God wants do I have his

power? That's what I want my obsession to be instead of getting it all done? Yeah. You know, this brings me to another story of the savior that he goes in the middle of the night. He goes to meditate on his own. And the next morning the disciples are looking for him because people have gathered to have him heal them. The do stuff. To do stuff. Right? And these are people are gathering to have Christ heel then. That's a good thing, and the disciples go and look for the savior and they're like,

why are you here? The people are all down here waiting for you? These are righteous disciples who want to do good things. And the savior says we're not going there today. We're going somewhere else. And that's interesting to me that the savior didn't heal everyone that he didn't preach every sermon that he did focus first like, Ty and Jacob said, on what does what does

heavenly father have for me today. And then he did at times say no. 2 good righteous requests In order to follow with what heavenly father had for him that day. Yeah. 1 thing that Greg Mc mckinnon taught me that We often, you know, in the evangelical community that the... What would Jesus do phrase is is very popular. And we sometimes ob obsessed about this, what would Jesus do And Greg said, you know, I think the most... The more important question is is

what would Jesus... What did Jesus not do. And and to sit with that for a while, because there's a lot of things he did not do. There were still people to heal for Peter with the Crisis and had resurrected. Right? So Kyle, we... I don't wanna miss you. Yeah. Go ahead. No. No. Yeah. Thank you. No. I just You know, I wanna recognize and bring respect and to the fact that, you know, sometimes know what does have to build an arc. And Ne does

have to build a ship. You have these big things that are pressing you need to do them. And I think all of us to, all of us here, a lot of people that come to mindfulness of meditation at least from the western tradition your sort of repent doers. Right? He found that something was wrong about about being so doing, engaged or oriented. And so I I just I I wanna recognize the fact that, yes, we do have to do these things, but we're not asked

to do them all the time. Yeah. And I think for myself and my own experience, right, Yeah know, God might might have asked you to build the ship, and Jake had mentioned, sometimes there can be an addictive quality to doing. The danger I think can come when we associate our own self worth and our relationship to God, being confined or restricted to the accomplishment of great arcs and ships. Right.

Because then we start pushing ourselves into zones or perhaps he's not there waiting for us, or we can't hear him or we leased lose touch with our family and friends and community because we're push push pushing, and we've associated our worth or our relationship with God with this incessant doing. And so I that that is all to say, I I recognize that sometimes we do have to build those

arcs, but then we'd... We're not asked to do that all the time, and we shouldn't be seeking to do that all the time. So. Yeah. If I could... Amen and amen. If I could you piggyback off of what, Kyle just said. It's not about not doing, It's about balance. In the sense that, you know, I think in our kind of hyper individualistic western task oriented, busy culture we've lost something. And in the spirit of of Joseph Smith and, you know, this idea

that, you know, all truth is more. Right And if I'm not embracing every truth, I won't come out of true mormon, and there's the sentiment that we talk about in the book, you know, B me beyond saying, know, go out into the world and gather every truth that you can find and bring in home design. And I've I've loved recently, president Nelson this idea of the unfinished restoration. Right? That we're just... Worse... This restoration

is is ongoing. And I firmly... I... I have believed this for a long time that the restoration won't be complete until we rem marry the east and the west. Mh. Right? We rem mary doing and being. Right. Because doing, you know, to to Cause comment. There are times when we have to do, there are things that need to be done. But there means to ends Right? And they we're still clear about what the ends are. And is all gods still.

Right? But they're also, you know, keeping together these times of needing to do and times of just being and being, you know, kind of living fully kind of on... Even just kind of honoring who we are and living out our true identities. Right? As children of God and we get kind of lost Richard Ru, who's a prominent Christian conte writer. He said that so often we get so tied to our false cells you know, and and it's kind of, like rearranging, you know, decks on the... Chairs on

the deck chairs on the titanic. Right? The whole shift is going down and, yet, we're trying to figure out which of our false selves selves is more important. You know? And and so it's really just sort of, you know, remembering And and we cab... John Cab in, who talked who talked about this, who, was 1 of, again, Jacob mentioned his name. 1 of the, kind of the fathers of this introduction into the west. He talks about remembering. Right? We think of this as a cognitive

exercise. But he's, like, remembering is remembering ourselves to something. We're not remembering something. We're remembering ourselves to a, we're reconnecting to it. Mh So when we remember god every day, it's every day, we are remembering ourselves to god when there are so many things in the world that want to. This member us from god. Mh And so living in this space of remembering isn't... Again, it's not cognitive. It's all spirit in its soul, and it's being as much as it's

doing all over the time. And if we... It's that that spiritual cancer, that we're talking about here isn't the doing. It's the imbalance of doing to the lack of being. Yeah. Not I I think tie and silently wise to clarify this because it would be harmful to see what we're proposing as an alternative to be to doing stuff. Mh It's a quality of the doing that we're describing, where the doing comes out of the bean.

It's a do... It's the doing motive mine versus the bean mode mind where, you know, it's about being in your head, and so focus that you can I actually feel what's going on in your body are and the people around you? So there's a way that the doing can still be happening, but have a different quality to it coming out of the bean. Yeah. And I think this launch is us in a discussion about and and they're... Chapter, I think it's chapter 8 as

far as being? Is that what... Or... What's being as far as sin is concerned because the typical scenario is Maybe somebody's done something that they need to go talk to the bishop about. And so they come into the bishop and they say bishop, I did this thing, and the bishop says, okay, we're... Going

to do this thing called repentance. Right? And and we never leave the the doing category into the being, and so And as III appreciate that chapter so much, because it just sort of talked on him and you you guys can articulate this better than than I can. But as far as just sort of being present. With your weakness with your imperfection with your sin. And rather than just racing racing racing to, you

know, get it to push through the... The the atonement machine and process and so we can move on and act like that never happened? So where does being in this as far as repentance and sin Like, what can we learn about that especially from the perspective of a bishop who is constantly dealing with sin, you know, on his desk as as

people are coming in to see him. If I could speak to that, There's lots of things that I'm sure that everyone will have to say, But there's 1 thought that I don't think we included in the book, But Actually I work in a therapeutic context. A lot of times the people are struggling with addiction. And in in the context I work with of, a lot of Students, you use students, I adults who are for, you know, most the pornography. Yeah. And very often recovery

is focused more on sobriety. Right? It's like, just you just the white knuckle. Yeah. Mh. If you would just not do that, everything would be fine. We're not focused on healing, we're just not doing it. Not doing the bad thing. And 1 of the things, president Kimball gave a talk called Jesus the perfect leader. Not forgot love speaking to leaders Alright. Esp Great doctor. He said Jesus saw sin is wrong, but he was also able to see sin as spring from deep unmet needs on the part of the center.

This permitted him to condemn the sin without condemning the individual. We show forth our love for others even when we are called upon to correct them. We need to be able to look deeply enough into the lives of others to see the base that causes for their. It's profound. If I'm not able to be with someone enough to really feel what's going on. I can't minister to them. And if I'm just focused on behavior, I... I think I have nothing to say

to to it. Right? This, Henry now that I mentioned, he says, He made a statement on a compassion. He said, you know, he's says, most people... We all kind of kind of agree that compassion is a good thing, but we don't fully appreciate how hard compassion is. And the reason compassion is hard is because it requires a disposition to go with people where they are hurting. But that's not our response to suffering.

Our response to suffering is to flee from it or try to find a quick cure And stitch it up. 1 fix it. And unless I can be with people in their pain, I cannot heal them. Pain. Like, when we learn to just sit with people and people with people we can bring you after. But so often people go in, you know, I'm talking to people who are meeting with church leaders, and they don't feel seen, they don't feel heard. They're kind of given this, you know, the the directive of, just don't do that or

see how many more days you... Yeah. It's accountability. Right? You call me every night, And I was this bishop for years and years. You call me every night, and you tell me if... You slipped up. Send me a text with a thumbs up or thumbs down. Right Right? These sorts of things. But And and and that's not to say the accountability is an important. But If it's, again, if it's not the starting there. Right? Yeah. If it's not stemming from this place of... Being able to see deeply enough into the

lives of others. And to be with them in that space, Mh. To be with discomfort, And I can't be with other people's discomfort if I can't be with my own. Chris. And, you know, we we might wanna demon pornography, but think... Of all the times if I if I don't wanna fill my sadness, I'd rather go binge on ice cream.

It's, I mean, in the sense of how, you know, the the destructive nature of not feeling my feelings, I'd rather binge on Netflix, eat of ice cream, you know, all the other things that we might do to Non destructive void. If I can't be with my difficult emotions. I cannot be with the difficult feelings of others. And so this is a discipline and a capacity that we have to practice in the way that relate to ourselves as much as

we relate to other people. But it really is sort of at the core of developing a capacity for compassion, and 1 of the reasons that I love all of this is that so much of it speaks to things we already believe in our. I... You talked to a hundred latter saints. I can't imagine 1 of them saying, like, why would you wanna be compassionate. That just seems like unnecessary. Right? And, Christian, and yet, it's... It a lot kind of it it stays at the level of a good idea. Right.

And so much of a lot of these, like, you know, conte Christian practices, a lot of these eastern mindfulness based practices, they are about... You know, if you get into these communities, they're always talking about the practice. The practice, the practice. It's all about the practice. What we're doing. We're taking these things that we would very much buy into. And just deeply already, you know, believe in.

And there's a form and a substance to practice those things and to develop this capacity for compassion to develop a capacity for greater presence to to, you know, to to to practice greater kindness in ways that infuse all of the things that we already know and believe with just more more subs. So help me with that, because I love everything you said, and I think most leaders are going... To... They're gonna hear that and they're gonna say, okay. I agree with that. But,

like, what does the application look like? When it's Sunday afternoon 02:00, and they have Jimmy in my office How do I be with him? You know, how do I not default to the, accountability? You know? So how would you coach a a leader to... Even begin that process? Because it's not something you learn overnight. Right? It's a process. So where does a leader even begin to know how to be with somebody and and show compassion and be in compassion.

Oh, Carrie spoke beautifully about allowing the person in their face to be kinda of meditation? Levin us is a Jewish philosopher. He says truth comes through the face of the other. It's like sitting with it. And really trying letting the spirit teach you in the moment. What to say and how to minister. I'd like to hear what Carrying Kyle say about that. The what came up for me is it's understandable that we have framed repentance as a step by step process. The 5 right. I mean, when I went on a

mission, there was commitment pattern. You're right. Right? Like, Well, doubt. I'm gonna ask you this and ask latitude. Yeah. Well well, I I don't know if this it's just that this was a way to order and language, things that are pretty nuanced. Yeah. And so I I think we should give ourselves a break a little that we we've organized the gospel in behavioral steps

in a lot of ways. And but we know in our missionary work we've moved beyond that to a place where we're inviting missionaries to be with investigators and sit with investigators and sense their needs, and they don't have to just follow the steps of the discussions, they don't have to follow the steps of a commitment pattern, It's more of a messy process of kind being with and parenting is the same thing.

Yeah. How many books are like, here are the 5 things Here are the 5 steps and my wife and I learned mindful parenting, we threw all that out. No, not all of it. Right. Number. But to be because... There's not a cookie cutter thing that you always do depending on the child, depending on the moment, there are different things the moment calls for. So he... Carrie comment like, letting each be kind of a a meditation in my experience of repentance.

I found that The healing I sought from my own betrayal, ultimately came not from my doing, but from things that god did. With me in me. As I as I kind of worked to align my heart, and had my own wrestle that's grace. Right? I mean, that's beautiful. Yeah. And and I started to experience repentance as my my favorite way to describe the gospel is tomorrow does not. Have to be the same as today.

This can be a new moment. I love the verse in in revelation where you see Jesus on the throne and like all things are become new. Right? Yeah. He offers a new day for all of us, not just the drunk line in the street. Like, we can... Begin again, moment by moment. Each moment can be a new moment, and I love how Alma says in, I'm a 37 now is the time when you can turn around. He doesn't say within the next 2 or 3 weeks. Yeah. Or after these fights depending on how severe it is.

Yeah. Now is the a time, you can turn back. And so in in the book we talked about, and both of you alluded to this, repentance is a practice of turning back. Turning back. The turning back just like in meditation when we teach our students. Notice when your your mind is wandered off and bring it back to the breath. Just 1 is wandered off bring it back. That's crazy how much it does that for? Notice where your... When your heart has wandered off to the ice cream again or the

schedule or this? Yes. And enjoy it, you know, bring it back. Bring it back to Jesus over and over and over... And and president Nelson's daily repentance talk is beautifully reflective of this. Yeah. Clarence. It's a daily thing. Just keep and bringing it back again in a particular way, noticing that when the mind wander We're not beating ourselves up because that end. Right? Yeah. It's this space of, you know, you know, Junk defined mindfulness is being fully present. On purpose in this

moment. About judgment. And that non judgment piece is really key because if I start... If I notice, if I'm trying to be really present with a client and all of a sudden I'm about what I need you know where I need to pick up my kids that night, my on purpose to be fully present with this person in front me. And so rather than beating up on myself and myself or, you know, my mind wondering. I just gently compassionate right back, and and that's

what repentance is is okay. We may have stray we gently compassionate just invited back to our point of intention, and that's our yes. That's being with god. That's being in a new day, a new moment. Becoming. And I do think you're saying the bishop at 02:00 with Jimmy. Right? I do think there are pragmatic resources we can refer people to or help people to get access to. But the bishop role in that moment is to be a healing relationship.

And I do believe that loving healing loving relationships can be very healing to some of the underlying issues that Ty saying lead people into those types into behaviors that are not healthy for us. 1 definition I heard of love a long time ago, which I just really have come back to over and over again is that love is creating space for the existence of another.

And I think when when a bishop can create space, by asking curious non judgmental questions about what is this like for you, How is this for you? Tell me more. That space and that loving space can be very healing even if no pragmatic solution is offered in that moment. I love that. And and just, again, realize because I think it's easy for a bishop to slip into or or any leader or a parent slip into sort of that to, he did it again? Like, how many more

times you gotta meet, Jimmy, You know? And let's get this on track, but just saying, you know, we're just bringing it back? Just like you said, we're just bring it back. This is this is the gospel. It's repentance. We just bring it back. And oh, again, alright. We're bringing it back. Right? And doing that, exercise through asking these questions and saying, tell me more about that, Jimmy? You know, you know, whoa, and when you're in the moment and you make this mistake, what are

you feeling? You know what's going on? You know, rather than, like, what, we need to fix you. Like, here in surgery here, We're doing spiritual brain surgery to to fix you. Right? That's good. It's the curiosity. Yeah. Right? I'm curious enough about you. And care enough about you to want to get into your life. And if I could just share this too, there's a men knight minister who said this. He said being heard is so close to being loved that for

the average person they're almost indistinguishable. Mh. And so having someone there who feels like you see them even if you don't have the answers. It's not about having the answers. Because so often we don't. It's, you know, caring enough to just to be with you, and to to be curious enough to hear what your story is, what your pain is and just to ex in that itself. Without any answers can be such a heat cough or something. Yeah. And it takes me like you mentioned early on as far as

the concept of faith transition. So this is something I hear all a lot of leaders email me about is, you know, I can I have 4 or 5 people going through a a faith crisis, quote unquote my word? And, Gen And what do I? You know what I say? Doing? A lot of times we're like, okay. Need 5 references on Joseph smith Poly? Because that... That's what Scott held up. So if Can give them the answer. Right? That'll that'll help them. But little do, they know or you know that maybe what their hold

up is is that they're... Faith experience is not giving them a mindful experience that they hope they would get out of a religious experience. And their only default is to go to these logical questions that haven't them hung up. And so in this process as we're working with people. It's sort of just putting the right answers aside and say, wow. Like you feel this way. I wanna just be with you, and I'm gonna be curious about why you feel this way and take out any stigma or shame for feeling this

way, and just learn and be curious. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And then... Yeah. And another way to to visualize or can conceptualize this, There's leaders in meditation and other traditions that talk about They describe this in meditation as if something comes to distract you and time Tay alluded to this, you you don't get angry with yourself or angry or uncomfortable with that, Pitch not Hahn said, you you sort of smile at it. Right? And the Dal Llama is a great example. They

sort of laugh at it. Right? So we're primed to be rep repulsive be horrified be afraid, and that sends us into reactive mode where we're not really dealing with things compassionate and getting at the route of things we're running. But if we smile, right? And we embrace. Right? Then those sorts of distractions, whether it be inside us or with if you're a leader, the person across from me you, who's done that thing again and you're kind of annoyed now and they're upset.

By smiling and understanding this as a as a manifestation of an, a stage in your development with God. Right? Is it it's just the subtle changes to how we react to things the face we put on things, how we accept them. Then all of a sudden, we're open to the reality, which we believe in that we're on a path of eternal progression. We're not trying to shove everyone through the eye of the needle now.

This problem that keeps manifesting we smile at because God is in the good and the bad, and he is there for the eternal hall and we are too. And we're smiling at this and it gives us an opportunity to work on our relationships. 1 more thing connected to Kyle comment. We love the stories of someone who was in a really bad place and then experienced this powerful moment with God, and then everything was different after. Mh. Better. Better, and they were good. Its Ebony are sc,

Tell me the younger. It's Paul. We love it. For good reason. Right? Mh. What does... We love the resolution? We love it. It's beautiful. What happens when it's not like that when there's when there's relapse, when there's 2 good weeks and then a a struggle. When it's messy. I think the wisdom Kyle pointing towards is can we be okay with a different looking process as well? Or is there sort of this residual?

What is up with you? Yeah. And and and what I loved about Prism Nelson's talking repentance? Is it was a powerful comprehensive endorsement in my mind of that messi approach. Yeah. From a beautiful loving man saying, kinda don't we all need a chance to turn back. And turn back. It's not that drunk line in the street alone. You know, or the birds are with pornography. It's

like the active release Society president. It's It's the anger that can come into us in this country right now for those idiots on the other side is all sorts of things. And to make it this kinda daily practice where we're turning back, and it is messi, and it's not as exciting as the avenues are Alma Paul. Yeah. Narrative, but it gets us to the same place. We might not be visited by Angels in the middle of the night. Yeah. I often go to, like, if we do have, you

know, Jimmy, is is a teenager struggling. Like, we envision redemption looking like, Jimmy gets... You know, it gets his act, and it goes on on a mission. But what if Jimmy doesn't get his act together. But He gets sealed the temple when he's 35. Are we still okay with that? Because, again, it gets us to the same place, but it's messy. Right? And so I think as leaders we sort of that form of meditation, we sort of come back to, like, I'm I'm at peace with that process, no matter how it

looks at the end. Even if Jimmy, misses out on the the mission opportunity. It's a trajectory. I work with people who start with pornography, and in many cases it is years of progress. We don't like to say that out loud it's like,

years. Everybody wants like something that's gonna just change it dramatically but the truth is that change for all of us happens in these moments over time, and that internal progression idea that the saints often get beat up for like, oh, young you guys think you have to try so hard. We in the book give an like, as well, our witness that that eternal progression Idea is beautifully godly. This like constant strict growth, And it's not a constant striving and, like, dissatisfaction.

It's an ongoing unfolding. That's why all the talk in my mind about identity and, like, who, you know, this is who I am, and you better accept it feels so dangerous to me. You better accept who I am. Up to this 14 year old tells us he is. If somebody told that to my son, I'd I'd fight them away. Mh. Who knows, like, some of the meditation masked teachers that I follow, speak about identity with sort of a humility and reverence. Like, well, We're gonna find out.

Yeah. You're gonna find out And you're gonna decide who you are. Over time, moment by moment as you interact with people and it's gonna be an un folding becoming. Our faith understands that. In a way that we get beat up by other cushions because I think we're too focused on striving, but we don't have to apologize for that. There's beautiful. This is a beautiful thing to be on this ongoing lifelong eternal journey. What about... Just as far as,

you... Having stillness is... I don't know if Tool seems like the wrong word, but using it as a resource as we're leaders. Know, as we're meeting with people, we've touched on a little bit in the process of repent and and helping people repent. But just in our day to day interactions with people. Anything else come to mind that a leader could, keep in mind as far as using stillness in our interactions with those that we lead. I would actually like to to take it in a a

little different direction. Yeah. Because I think because there's the micro, and then there's the macro. Mh. And we've talked you know, there's these, like, micro experiences about how you employ stillness and these very specific kind of moment by moment ways. And I think that leads to In the mindfulness research, they talk about, they differentiate between what they call trait mindfulness and state.

And I I think the the analogy that I use for that is just, like, you know, going to the gym, if you go to the gym once and get a really good burn and you never go back to the gym again. Into the Gym once and you got a really good burn. Yeah Right. It's the consistency over time that leads to the the substantive changes in our our body. Right? And in mindfulness, these state experiences with mindfulness as we practice stillness

today in this moment right now. The cumulative effect of that over time is where mindfulness becomes who we are. And a lot and and people who have interacted with, the name T Han coming up, coming up a couple times and he's a Vietnamese buddhist month. It's just very, very beloved. And and people who have interacted with him have said that, you know, when you're with him, you can just feel the world slow down.

Like, just being in his presence. He's he just allude and amidst this kind of, this kind of stillness in presence. But I think in all of this, with these capacities with non judgment, and I think this is where I think a lot of my own journey where I feel like God was very specific in prompting me. I want you to understand this. I want you to learn this. And he was in the context of of being single and not knowing what marriage was gonna look like. You know, and can I'm a student at By?

No. I'm not a student you. I... Applied. So I've I work part time, I teach part time in religious education So I work a lot with students who are kind of in this phase of life too where everything's about marriage and family, getting married, having kids feeling overwhelmed by you know, And if I'm not married by 24, you know, I've got a client who who's a 19 year old, and it feels like she's getting old. Like, she's supposed to be married already.

And there's this culture of expectation and narratives around what your life should look like, what you're supposed to be doing and we get lost in there all the time. What our kids lives are supposed to look like? When you're supposed to leave on your mission? And if you leave a couple years later, if you haven't left it 18 or 19, our anxiety goes up. And so much for me of this practice was learning how to just surrender and let my life look like whatever got

me. And if that meant, because at the time I wasn't get married, I wasn't married and didn't really see that on the horizon at that point. And that meant that if I didn't get married, I could be okay with that. And I could live a rich full, meaningful life in God because if that's what

it's about. It's not about getting married. And it's not about having that certain calling and it's not about all of the things that we're supposed to do were the things that are supposed to happen in in the broader kind of macro narratives of our lives. And so to practice this non judgmental compassion and a surrender of everything else outside of this moment. And let... And you know, in life is built up of moments. And I think this was what the Lord was trying to teach

the Israelites in the wilderness. Yes. Forget tomorrow's. Yeah. That will come you tomorrow. If you want Zion, if we're gonna prepare you for the promised, It's by relying on today's minute today. And Not I'm giving you anything else? Pay more than that. Right? And yet, we get so far ahead of ourselves. And if I'm gonna promise me a spouse by 24, I'm out of here. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I'll find it

someplace else. Or, you know, so there's all sorts of things that I think we get stuck in in terms of expectation, You know, there's therapeutic mantra that expectations are prem resentment, And we can live out our lives that way. Right? When God doesn't show up in our lives in the way that we're supposed to. President Packer said it was that, you know, the line and they all lived happily ever after has never written into the second act.

The third act. Yes. Right? When all the mysteries are solved and everything is made right, the entire second act is designed in most narratives to be messy. Still trying to figure out who the good guys are and who the bad guys are and what's right and who's, you know, and so to learn how to be in that to be in the moment right now when it's messy, when we don't know what our lives are gonna look like.

And when we don't know if we're gonna get married or when we're gonna mirror married or if we're gonna have kids or if we're gonna lose this kid or what's... You know, if my son or daughter's is ever gonna, you know, figure this for that thing out. Right? And we get just so lost and stuck in and how things are supposed to be and if they're not, we fail.

And so this practice is about you know, 1 of my favorite teachers Tara Just came out with a about called radical compassion where we are really just practicing being in each and every moment. In the most honest way in the most compassionate way. And with others in the same spirit. Right? And that's really the substance of the gospel to in my mind, that's what it's supposed to be. Yeah. Right? That's what Christ is calling us to. That's what Zion is. That's

the promised land. And there are some real practices here that over time will help us to develop that muscle in a way that... It's not just something we're practicing today is where we are. Wow. And I love the... You know, Jacob talked about these wild, these wild animals that are tasks in. And I love the... You put this in the context of these narratives that we have in the gospel. That those are sometimes another form of these wild animals coming at

us. Like, if your son does not go on a mission at 18 years old, you messed up as a as a person. And so this this practice can put ourselves in a mindfulness of saying, I recognize that as a narrative, and as as a wild animal, and I'm gonna keep it at at at Bay, while I've just connect with God because that's really why I'm here, not necessarily to fulfill these these arbitrary narratives that round me. Right? I would like to add 1 thing about mindfulness and mental health.

I know that this weighs is on a lot of bishop and early sight presidents. It's understandable when these mental health problems come up that it can get scary because we know things can unravel and things can get tough. I seen a tendency among normal folks who weren't professionals to say, oh, well, I better not. Yeah. I'm who am I? I'm I'm just I'm I'm not a counselor. I'm not a professional.

And I wanna suggest that everything that we've said about the healing power of being with and listening to someone can be really helpful for people with depression and anxiety. This idea that depression and anxiety is not connect anything people do in their lives is just ridiculous. It's not actually empirical scientifically true. There's hundreds of different connections between choices people make in their lives and how they feel emotionally. And so the work of ministry in the gospel

can be directly connected to helping with. Burdens. My father's a mission president right now in New Jersey, and he's he's seen people come and investigate the church with huge burdens of depression. And find in the process of repentance and coming in baptism a lifting of a lot of it. That doesn't mean now what it sounds like it could be. But it does mean that there's sometimes just think it's only a professional thing, and we talk about it Like, we gotta just do something to make it go away.

Back can sometimes make it worse, and there are a lot of resources mindfulness based resources that can help people with mental health. Part of an organization called the Council for sustainable healing and on our website. We've got a lot of free resources for people, depression anxiety. They can do in their own home. As an additional supplement support to whatever professional support you receive. So a little bit. I hope people can Know that your your impact is leader can

make a big difference there. Yeah. And I appreciate you mentioning that because sometimes as a leader you can feel like, okay. This person has obviously has some clinical depression anxiety. We need to get handled I'm gonna refer them to a counselor, which of course, there's a good idea. Yeah. But then there's... You know, there's no space for me here. But in reality, there could be a great practice of that person regular meeting with a bishop or at release say president and being present with

them and encouraging them. And, you know, having a gospel script scripture discussion, even if we don't talk about the depression or the problem. Right? And just having them create a space there for them to come and connect with the divine and through the bishop office or it's through it's really site president. Right? Instead of asking what's wrong with you. Let's ask what has happened to you? And a bishop, a relief side leader can be, a person that hears their story and finds

ways to that. Yeah. Awesome. Anything else? Yeah. I'd I'd like to just share sort of what practicing this has been like, just in my life personally. Going on from Tie was saying going from a trade to a state. Right? I'm still in the process of trying to be a mindful person rather than just pro, you know, do it.

Yeah. So I'm still in the process of that, But I've noticed that when my attention is on being more mindful or being more compassionate present, that I'm less reactive that when I don't understand something or when someone is frustrating me or there's a policy or a doctrine in the church that I just don't get, unless reactive to it, I'm more able to just sit with it and be curious about it and be gentle about that rather than having sort of a a

knee jerk reaction to it. I noticed that I feel more joy in the little things of life in those little moments of serving at church or those little moments of connection, they're more colorful somehow because I'm more fully seeing them. And that helps me feel more s in my relationship with not just my heavenly only father, but with the saints. And with through the church, I feel more steady, and I feel more joy in my

worship experience. And that's part of why I continue to practice this is because of the personal benefits I feel in. Beautiful, gary. Kyle. Yeah. And I would just emphasize that I know that some of the things we've been talking about. They they seem intuitive to us because we've been practicing it for a while, or we've been, you know, reading the literature of late. And I've gotta be honest A lot of my brothers and sisters literally and figuratively, this feels really

strange to them. So to all of a sudden, I'll bishop to to accept this as a as a new method or wave of approaching things, it would be hard. I think for a

lot. I think we have to recognize it's it's hard for our brothers and sisters in or western tradition inn America, in a driven capitalist environment with our own tradition being built on, you know, making a livelihood building cities for ourselves and you know, the the the whole driving force behind everything we do to try to talk about these parts of the gospel, of slowing down. So I just want to recognize that that's hard for a lot of people.

We all believe strongly in our own experience that it's a real blessing and helps us live the gospel of Jesus Christ more fully and more sincerely but I just also wanted to recognize that, it could be... It... It's a challenge. The things I think we're we're we're asking people to do sometimes just because for cultural,

religious or other reasons, even political. These sorts of things can be associated with sort of, hippie dip progress as you know, I I if we recognize, I think it's good for us to recognize though it's it's not as easy for others to to accept. That's great. And just having, like, if leaders listening to this or individuals listening this, just have some level of self compassion saying, you know, this... These are obviously great ideas.

That you can be excited by this practice, but you're not you're not gonna figure this out. Right? It's a process. And so just have compassion with yourself knowing that every day, you're just gonna try a bit more to to beat. Or or others, others that you you want to share with that you think will help them. You know, sometimes you this can be challenging idea for them to

accept. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Carrie, you you're gonna be the spokesperson versus as far as telling people if they want to know about this book find it. Obviously, it is Desert book published Right. So again, this isn't a hippie Dip progressive bookstore that's only this book. This is the Desert book that published this and so I assume people could shut it. It can be found at... Our book is the power of still mindful living for Latter day saints, and it can be found at

desert book. Awesome. Cool. Alright. The last question we'll just do a quick around the Robin. As you ponder on your work in this practice of mindfulness of stillness How has it made you a better follower of Jesus Christ. Who wants Go first Kyle. You've... You're first since you're so distant? Yeah. For me, it helps me be more

compassionate and connected to other people. So a lot of what we've been saying, it sounds like where meditation or mindfulness might be stepping away from others or ourselves, but really, what I have found in my personal life is it opens up a constant place of connection to God and others. I think probably 2 things. 1, I feel like I'm better able to let go and let God.

Learning how to surrender to be in the moment to be compassionate with myself to be compassionate with others to let us all you know, be in process. And to be with each other in kinder more compassionate ways, I feel like I I can be myself and and in kind of ways, I felt like I can be with others and kind ways. I can... It's enabled me to experience a deeper intimacy, you know, my relationships. With others with God, to, I feel like

my relationship with God is more intimate. But ultimately that I can be here in this mode mortal so on an Errand that is not mine. We're connected we're able to surrender my own stories and narratives and expectations of what life should be able to surrender to trust and the unknown and letting God be begun, and letting his way not be my ways.

I think the practice as a whole. I think I've I always probably believe those things theological, but I feel like this practice has enabled me to really surrender into that in this carrie was saying. I feel like I'm still on the journey of seeking to be a mindful person. But the practice of mindfulness is an ongoing practice that helps me more substantive live out those things that I believe theological.

Awesome. Jacob. This has giving me a moral framework to help me see stopping as a good thing, not a bad thing. And in that stopping is where I find God. God finds me. The other thing is that it Mindfulness has helped me learn to rest in my spirit rather than just stay in my head, and has helped me see my thoughts, sometimes it's just thoughts. Not as reality. So rather than living by every thought that proceeds forth out of my head.

Understanding like, I'm not That's not the work living by every word that sees forth out of god's mouth, and sometimes my thoughts are just random craziness. Nice. Gary? 1 practical, but very profound for me impact of studying and trying to practice this has been the impact on my prayer that I no longer approach prayer only in as a grocery list of what I want or a rec repetition of how my day went.

I really experienced prayer as sitting with my savior with my heavenly father and just feeling warmed by their presence. And sometimes that's with words, and sometimes that's really just sitting in stillness with them as you would with a really good friend where you don't have to say anything at all. And know that you're being fully understood.

So my experience with prayer has been really transformed, and then the revelation that comes out of connecting with God in that way has been really life changing for me. That concludes my interview with these 4 fantastic authors of the power of stillness, mindful living for Latter day saints. Am Mariah, could should we just take a moment again? Deep breath.

Yeah. Let's just be. Right? Like, we... There's probably maybe a next episode or another podcast on your queue and your podcast app or maybe have to turn this off and run new appointment, but Just take a moment and say, you know, after this episode or after this episode concludes. I'm just gonna stop my podcasts for a minute. I'm gonna stop the noise. I'm just gonna be for a minute. I'm going reflect. And wherever I'm headed, I'm gonna be 100

percent present there. And the next meeting I go to as it relates to my church calling, I'm gonna be 100 percent present with no expectations with no hopes that you'll be able to be a better person or you'll become something you're just gonna be. Right? This episode helped me so much. I hope it helped you as much as it helped me. And I felt so calm after they left my my recording studio. I was just like, I had my own personal meditation session, but

definitely book to check out. Again, as post by as booked, so I... I mean, it's not a dangerous book folks. Alright? Definitely worth to read and definitely somebody you consider and talk about with your Ward Counsel with other leaders and just reflect, how can you bring more stillness more mindfulness to your leadership? And then will you share this episode with somebody else that maybe would benefit from maybe slowing down a little bit, being more mindful.

And drop this link in a in a email and send it on their way or put it on social media and you'll bless the lives of many others. And that concludes this throwback episode of the leading saints podcast. Remember, to watch the interview about Sc velocity, Go to leading saints dot org slash 14 for free access to the mentally healthy saints virtual library. It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us

by the God of Heaven who brought. Fourth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth. We were immediately put in a position of a loneliness. The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away. And to which we must face up with bold and courage and ability,