Did you know Rob Farrell's Leading Saints podcast interview has over 100,000 downloads? Yeah, it seemed everyone loved it. After that interview, we actually invited Rob Farrell to a Leading Saints Live event and told him he could take as much time as he wanted. Well, he ended up teaching for four plus hours. And don't worry, we recorded it. It's all part of the Leading Saints core leader library, and we want you to watch it at no cost.
Simply go to leading saints.org/fourteen and you can gain access to not only Rob Ferrell's four hour presentation, but also to 100 plus hours of all other leadership related content that we have in the Core Leader Library. You're gonna love it. So simply visit leading saints.org/fourteen and get started. The following episode is a throwback episode one that was published previously and was extremely popular to see the details of when this was originally
published. See the show notes. Enjoy this throwback episode. Welcome. Back to the Leading Saints podcast. My name is Kurt Frankum and I will be your host. Now, if you're new to Leading Saints, we welcome you. This is a podcast where we strive to help latter day saint leaders be better prepared to lead. And I hope if you're new that you'll subscribe and jump in. And there's a lot of episodes here, but, uh, they're worth every minute,
I promise it. Now, uh, in this episode we talk with Robert Milit, a well known name in the church. You often see his name on books in church, bookstores, especially Desert Book, who is his publisher. But this book is called the Holy Spirit, His Identity, Mission, and Ministry. I had the opportunity to read this book and was highlighting and, and taking notes and tagging and trying to remember all this content because
it's, it's phenomenal. And so luckily I get to not only read this book, but I get to sit down and have fascinating conversations with the author Robert Miller. And so we did that at the corporate headquarters of Desert Book in downtown Salt
Lake City. We met up and had a deep discussion about the Holy Spirit, but more particularly of how the Holy Spirit, uh, in the context as far as how, what we should understand about the Holy Spirit in the context of being a leader in the church, especially in the Bishop's Office or when we're missionaries, or how we testify and what the role is, and just further understanding that doctrine of the Holy Spirit because, well, it's an important one, so hope you, uh,
benefit from this conversation as much as I did. You're gonna love it. Here is my interview with Robert Millet. Today I'm in downtown Salt Lake City, sitting down with Brother Robert Mill. How are you? I'm well. Good. Now I can call you Bob. I know you go by Bob. Is that all right? My. Friends call me Bob. You can call me Robert. Okay. Will call you. No, I'm just. Kidding. You call me. Bob. Maybe by the third interview I can be, uh, on that level, but Bob's great.
Great. Now I know, uh, we have the opportunity to record an interview, uh, a few months ago, maybe about a year ago, and that was received well, and, uh, there's always a new project in your life. Is that right? Well, yeah. There always seems to be something. I go through bookstores looking for what no one's talking about much, you. Know, and you have a long list of those topics that you. Hope I had it. It's getting shorter. It. Is good as you get through. As my life gets, uh, shorter . Good.
Well, good. And, uh, you've most recently written the book, The Holy Spirit, his Identity, mission, and Ministry, and it's, uh, available at all, uh, church bookstores, primarily at, uh, Desert Book, and obviously on Amazon and those, uh, worldwide bookstores. But so what was the impetus of tackling this, this doctrine? Well, I've been fascinated for years with the work of the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit, and what occurred to me that got me thinking more seriously about this.
I was sitting one day thinking about a typical Sunday. How many times would you hear an expression like in a prayer? Bless us, that the spirit may be with us, Right. Or bless so and so as she speaks, that the spirit will guide her in March or bless all of those who are here, that we will be guided and touched and instructed by that same spirit. And what hit me was the Holy Ghost is involved in everything. You would have trouble finding a facet of the Christian faith in which the Holy
Ghost is not intimately involved. And because of that, it's so common, and I don't mean anything bad by common, but so frequently referred to and, and, uh, discussed. I don't think we, we appreciate just how in and through everything it is. And so I thought, if I remember, I think I did a series of talks on this in, in, uh, at an education week and, and it was received well, and I thought, maybe there's something here. So I went along the lines of what are the functions of the Holy Ghost?
What are the facets of the Holy Ghost? What does it take to get and keep the Holy Ghost? What is it? What do you have to do to lose it? And what's the worst way to lose it? And so forth. And so it all began with the consideration of how involved is he? And the answer is he's in everything.
And I'm just curious, when you approach a doctrine or a subject so vast, like where do you even begin to and and what are some of those routines or strategies that you use to really make sure that you're covering the topic effectively? Well. It starts with my sitting down with, uh, a tablet that I keep with me at all times. And, and I just began saying, if I were to write a book on this, what were the things that would just have to be in that book? And I'll make,
I'll make a list. And as the days go by and the weeks go by, if I'm myself saying, You didn't this, and so I'll that in, or I'll notice that I have numbers three and seven are basically the same thing. Oh, okay. And so over a period of weeks, that list of chapters, the table of contents essentially gets formed. And then I begin asking, I'll take a particular chapter and say, Now, in a chapter on obtaining the Holy Ghost, what ought be in it?
If I were, if I were reading a book, what would I expect to be in a book on that area of, of the faith that is, what does it take? Or if I have a chapter on quenching the spirit, what it takes to lose it, What are some areas that ought to be covered? Then I'll ask, Well, what are some prophetic statements or scriptural passages that teach that particularly well? And so it's a bit of a bit of a branching outfit. I find myself thinking, Yes, no, when I've done this,
then you need to deal with and Oh yeah. The scripture so and so comes to mind. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, I'm sure by the end, by the time the book is, is printed, uh, you don't, you're not able to put all of that in one book. Right? No, that's a problem. Almost any book, especially something of this sort, you start with the presumption of de limitation. Yeah. It's, there's no way to cover it. It's like the book I did on Joseph Smith and Precept upon Precep, I, it's just too big for one book.
And so I had to decide which things will I leave out. And that's often painful. Yeah. But it's also probably a healthy exercise to really start, you know, zoning in on what are the really core parts of this doctrine that are most important. That's right. Yeah. And along the lines of, are there things that are unclear or misunderstood that we know of pertaining to the Holy Spirit?
Yeah. I know just throughout my time as, as a leader, especially when I was in a state pregnancy where you had that state conference every six months, where knowing that I was studying in a way that I, at the end of all this study, I had to stand up and present. It really helped me formulate my thoughts and, and seek a deeper direction because of that.
So I imagine it's the same thing that maybe somebody out there could mimic this process of, though they may not be writing a book or end up giving it a talk on it, they having that goal of how do I, how do I formulate this down to the essence so that I can articulate. It? That reminds me, too, that would be another facet of the preparation of an outline, is asking myself, what experiences have I had with this? Mm-hmm. , or what experiences am I aware of that church leaders have had through
the century you? Yeah. And so those are the kinds of things I would plug in. And as time goes by, I find myself saying, I just don't think this is necessary. It's not that big a deal. Uhhuh . I know when I, when I decided years ago, I wanted to do a book on prayer, and why? Because as I walked through the bookstore, there wasn't a single book on prayer, huh? Yeah. Pretty good, important subject. Yeah. I mean.
But, but there was not a book on the show. Now, there had been a, a collection of general authority talks or sign articles on prayer that made it into a book called Prayer, but that's like 1978 or something, . It's time for another book. So. I thought, so I sat down and I took about two days to put together a lengthy outline of what I projected would be about a 300 page book on prayer.
And the more I worked on it, as I began the writing, I found myself saying, Is this part that really, that that really, is that just important at all? I mean, is this, does it matter? By the time I finished, I had 120 page book on. Yeah. But definitely a, a helpful exercise to go through. Right? It is. Because you start asking, Has this ever come up? I mean, is this something that's ever gonna matter to anybody? Yeah. And you start saying, Probably not. Yeah.
So was there one specific chapter or as you sat down initially, that you were really excited to write about as it relates to the Doc and the Holy Spirit? Well. I wanted to, well, I wanted to talk at some length about the relationship of the members of the Godhead, and that that was probably my first impulse. What do we know from prophets and scripture about how the members of the Godhead relate? Is there anal relationship that is, for example, in a conservative Protestant perspective,
say an evangelical Christian perspective? No one is greater than the other. There are three co-equal co eternal beings that have always existed, as it were, or at least the father and the son have. And yet, it's very clear to me in the gospel of John Christ is constantly saying things like, My father is greater than I, I come not to do my own work, but the work of my father, or my doctrine is not mine. But his, that sent me's throughout the gospel of John and mentioned occasionally in the
Synoptics, but I first wanted to address that. Interestingly, the other one and wanted to do a little more with was, what about sons of tradition? What do you have to do that you. Right, right. Yeah. , you don't need that roadmap. But, uh. And I wanted to see if I could find out whether research had been done on the question of, is there such a thing as a daughter, a tradition? Oh, yeah. And so I did confine that to a note in the book. But fact is the leaders,
the church have gone back and forth on this. Some say yes, some say no. Interesting. Some say a person must have the priesthood. Someone says the priesthood, You don't need the priesthood. Joseph Smith says, You need the Holy Ghost. And so that's, it's good to know that there's no position on this. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And so that one I was interested in. I wanted to make sure that I did something too on worthwhile, on the light of Christ. We talk about it. Yeah.
I wanted to be able to talk about it. What is the relationship between the light of Christ and let's say the influence of the Holy Ghost? Is that a different, is it a gradation? Is it, is it a, um, a growing amount of spirit? It's all God's power. Right? God doesn't have to say, Okay, why don't you, why don't you switch into, uh, Holy Spirit for that one, and let's have you switch into priesthood for that one. Yeah. I think it's all God's power. Yeah. And yet it's administered in different ways,
different facets, different amounts. And I came across the passage in, in 18 that we've read a thousand times about the covenant of baptism. But what I hadn't paid any attention to was why not be baptized, Alma, ask that the Holy Spirit may be sent upon you in greater abundance. That's what he's talking about, the gift of the Holy Ghost, which you can only have the full measure of the Holy Ghost following baptism. Yeah. Yeah. And there's obviously differences in, in, in these words and,
and how they're explained and the administration of them. Right. That's right. And so those two or three, four in particular, and then as I began getting into it, I began thinking, Oh, you've gotta have something on this, or you must deal with this. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And, and suddenly you have a book. Right. Suddenly you have a long book. Yeah. . Well, good. It. Takes a lot of writing and rewriting. Yeah.
You know, and I just thinking, I I, my mind goes to, uh, a state conference I was in once and there's a visiting authority. I think it was Elder Golden, just randomly remember that. But, and he opened it up for some questions to the Saturday evening session. And obviously this is, this is a risky, uh, move for a general. Right.
And I remember the first question was in relation to, you know, will the Holy Spirit ever have a body and explain that, because it seems like there's some parts of doctrines that it's interesting. And if there's a question that would be, or if there's an answer to these questions, that'd be fascinating. But a lot of these doctrines, you can go down certain rabbit holes that really don't matter. Right. Or, or maybe they do matter.
They either, they either don't matter, Uh, they're just not anything on this. Right. The one you just mentioned, for example, when we were planning this book, uh, myself and the, my colleagues Atez Red Book, we were wrestling over a subtitle. Holy Spirit seemed like a good title, but subtitle. Yeah. And one of the words they wanted to make sure that was in there was his identity. And I said to them, It's gonna be a really short chapter.
Because. Cause I'm aware of about two statements from Joseph Smith on this, and that's what's in there Yeah. That chapter. And so yes, we need to know who he is, but that doesn't take a long time to say, because not a whole lot has been said about it. Yeah. And so, really with those questions, I mean, if someone went to Priest, the leader and ask something like that, I mean, how would you suggest they respond?
Like that question? Yeah. You know, I, I probably respond with, we really dunno a great deal about it. I'm aware of a couple of places where the prophet Joseph Smith said that the Holy Ghost will eventually receive a physical body because he's a son, a spirit son of our heaven father. Mm-hmm. of what we know as far. I know there's, there's that chapter . I haven't even come across any general authorities that ever even speculate beyond that. It's just, that's about it.
Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. So I wanna maybe dive into, you know, as with a, a leadership audience listing, you know, there, there's certain doctrines and principles that we learn in primary. And, and as we develop in the gospel and, you know, the, the gift of the Holy Ghost, it comes a baptism and so forth. And then when we are put in these leadership positions, not only do people come to us with some questions like that and others that maybe do have answers, but we sort of gain a deep, or,
or we seek for a deeper understanding of these things. So you talk about, as far as losing the Holy Ghost, you know, we, we often hear this, that we have to be worthy for the Holy Ghost. Obviously we receive the, the gift of the Holy Ghost after baptism. What does that, where would you begin? What, what does it even mean to lose the Holy Ghost? Well, I think, I think when we, when we commit sin of a magnitude that is offensive to the spirit, then we feel that spirit's influence less.
I don't think it's complicated. I just think we feel it less. And it's interesting, I think the Book of Mormon uses language like you with, you do withdraw yourself from the Holy Spirit. He doesn't have to withdraw himself. You withdraw yourself by serious sin. And so I think when I, and I think I'd say it this way too, that the finer, the more, the more, more refined our lives become,
the higher standard we have to live. In other words, the slightest deviation for a person that's really living a life, the slightest deviation from Right. Will bring great pain and an absence or a kind of a, a chasing. Yeah. Um, and so now on the other hand, a person who is just getting back into activity, let's say after years of being less active, it seems like the spirit is much more patient. Yeah. Yeah. And encouraging. Right.
Encouraging. You'd hope so. That's right. Yeah. So that, the, the slightest thing, I, I tell a story in here, and it was a, it was a sobering one for me of an experience I had with, when the first time I was bishop with a man in our ward who was excommunicated for immorality. And it was serious. I worked with him and the state president worked with him over the month, and he came in to see me at about the second month, and we chatted and I said, How are you doing? And he said, Bishop,
I never knew how much light I had until I lost it. And then he said, this, it's so dark out here. And then he added this, and I, I don't wanna establish doctrine with this, but I think it's a fascinating point. He said, I even enjoyed the spirit to some extent while I was sinning. He says, Now I feel so dark. That is following severance from the church, following membership being taken. He was what? And he literally was experiencing what is called the, the buffeting of Satan.
He was being pushed around and, and, and he felt just ous. It was, there was just emptiness he felt. And his greatest desire was to get that spirit back. Yeah. And so, I, I think he's probably right. He probably had to measure the spirit that he felt even in his moments of doing what he shouldn't do. But I think on the other hand, if you're, if you're living the gospel and you're doing better and better at it,
that the Holy Ghost is trying to raise you to a higher standard. Yeah. In fact, there'll be a certain point where you don't have to commit sin, you just have to pause on a plateau for, for, for too long. You follow me? Yeah. Yeah. Resident said we'd on some plateaus long enough. Wow. That's a, that's important statement. Cause it's saying you can't remain neutral. Yeah. You won't remain neutral. You go backwards. Yeah. Or you go forward. Yeah.
It's like you can't take a vacation from the spirit. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, Or you can't take a vacation from the church, you're gonna lose. Yeah. Now, you, you may be released from the position and you're not quite as involved as you were before, but you just can't set the spirit on the, on the shelf and say, I'll come back later. Yeah. Yeah. It just reminds me, like one instance I had as, as a, a bishop, there was a, a couple across the street from me, and I knew, you know,
the records were on, on the roles. I, I knew that they had a connection to the church and, you know, so I, I made a connection with them and, and encouraged them back. And to the point where this young man, you know, no kids yet newly young married couple, this young man came to my office and was willing to have a conversation with me. And he, he told me about an experience where I think he'd been through a disfellowship of, of some type.
And he told me that his ysa bishop got to a point where he mentioned to this young man that, Well, you can't receive personal revelation because you are unworthy of the spirit. And this was such a interaction that was just so shaming to him where it felt like he was more saying, You are unworthy as a human and as a person that you don't, you, you don't get any of this, this spirit. Right. And I assured him, I, I felt good in the moment to say, you know, no, like, you,
you need a relationship. You're, you're savior and you're fathering in heaven is reaching out to you for that relationship. So there's sometimes we, we simplify these doctrines so much that we think. That make it black and white. It isn't black and white. Right. It's more on a continuum.
Right. And so I guess my question is like, in those instances where church discipline and, and serious sin has been committed, like what sometimes we use the doctrine of the Holy Spirit is sort of like a, a stick to beat him with a little bit saying, Well, you can't have this doctor now, and because you don't have, you know, the quote, you know, quote the gift of the Holy Ghost. And so how can we better facilitate that conversation with encouragement rather
than, you know, pulling this doctrine away from them? I. Think we can talk to them about the fact that what they're, what they do reveal, feel on certain moments, which they assume is the spirit is, and that the spirit is working with them. Mm-hmm. , you know, there's interesting in scripture that research that is the phrase is my spirit shall not always had to come appreciate the prophets taught.
That isn't referring to the light of Christ's referring the Holy Ghost in the holy, the, the light of Christ strives with us. Think about that word strive. It's related toif battles with us. It battles to get us in shape spiritually, to prepare us for better things. The Holy Ghost doesn't battle with us. If I were talking like I talked in Louisiana, I'd say, Holy Ghost won't mess with you. .
Meaning you'll begin to feel less of that spirit of when you sin the light of Christ, you'll never lose the light of Christ. It'll always be there. So there will always be an element of spirit trying to prompt you and move you toward greater light and greater knowledge. And so, yeah. I don't think there's ever a time when a person doesn't have a measure of God's spirit.
Yeah. Yeah. Cause I've even talked to many individuals who, you know, one close friend of mine who's, uh, uh, currently excommunicated and kind of going through that process and his experience has been, Wow, you know, this has been such a sanctifying process for me. I feel, I feel close to Lord. You know, I don't, I've never had this feeling like I am in the dark, or I, I feel that connection. I feel that guidance of the, of the spirit.
And so sometimes it's hard, like you said, you can't get in the black and white territory with these doctrines. Well, that's right. I, I think it's, it's why we, why there is something to the idea of a portion of the spirit that's a book, a Mormon phrase, a portion of the Lord's spirit. Not long ago, a man came up to me, I'd given a talk, and I used that phrase, and he said, There's no such thing as a portion of the spirit. I said, Well,
you better talk to Alma. He tends to use that expression. A group think all it means is you may not have the fullness of the spirit, but you'll have the spirit. That's a portion. Hmm. Okay. And so, yeah, I think, I think that, uh, I'll give you another illustration. People outside our faith, I've heard this a hundred times if I've heard it at all over the years. And that's this, we are the only people that still believe God speaks to. Man.
I don't know how we started saying that, but I know too many people of other faiths, I've spent 25 years of my life working with them. And I'm telling you, they have the spirit. Now, do they have the gift of the Holy Ghost? I'd have to say no. That's, that comes after ba authorized baptism when confirmation. But they certainly have a spirit with them, and it's God's spirit. And to say they don't have the right to inspiration, what kind of a father would do that. Right? Yeah. Of course.
They can pray and get direction. Yeah, of course. They can have their prayers answered. And so I think the proper way of saying it might be we're the only church that still believes in apostolic oversight, and that, that the church and the leaders of the church at the highest levels are receiving ongoing revelation. That's where we distinct. But to say we're the only people that believes you can have inspiration,
that's just not, so, Yeah. They all believe that. I mean, I would hope that they would live in such a way that the spirit could guide them. Right. And, and it does. Yeah. And especially, you know, you talk about outside of our church, if there's a, you know, Baptist minister who feels inspired to start a church, and I mean, they're, that spirit's gonna motivate them in that action. Right. Cause. How could anybody listen to Billy Graham preach and say, Oh yeah, you just don't have any spirit .
You know? Right. I mean, I, I didn't wanna walk up to the front and do an ultra call, but at the same time I was always very moved. Oh yeah, absolutely. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that's a, that's an example of an oversimplification relative to the spirit. Yeah. And I think we really just have to be careful that, especially in these leadership positions, that it can come across as very shaming when there's no shame in this process at all. It should be encouraging. Right.
No repentance needs to be upward looking. Yeah. For sure. It also, in my mind, like the typical, you know, eight year old baptism, or it's a, you know, typically grandma and grandpa speak about the Holy Ghost. Right. And there's always this default to the doctrine that this is our, you know, in, in primary terms, this is our special friend, You'll now have a companion to go with you. And, and sometimes that's where we simplify the doctrine saying, Well,
if you don't get baptized, you won't have a companion. You won't be, have guidance. Or I feel like the stronger doctrine is less about having a special friend and more about the cleansing agent of the, the Holy Ghost. Right. And to me, that's the, if we can get that doctrine across to the, the developing faith in our, in our church, that that's why we go to church. We need that cleansing agent every week. Right. Agreed. And, and as I mentioned a moment ago,
we also wanna have that spirit with us more abundantly. Yeah. Even more than I have it now. Yeah. I want more, you. Know? Yeah. And even for the temple recommended holding individual who's, who's quote unquote worthy, there's still an abundance that he can reach for. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. So yeah, it's, it's an infinite, There's a, it's, there's an infinite gradation of spirit. Yes. And so it really doesn't help people to say, you don't have any spirit.
You never will get baptized them. Yeah. Well that makes no sense, because they have to, at a certain point, feeling this spirit to this and help them with that. And so can't oversimplified. Any other, um, as, uh, related to this doctrine of the Holy Spirit is as it relates to repentance, the repentance process that would be worth mentioning.
Yes. I think, I think the one that comes to my mind is this either members of my ward or students in my classroom over the years, the question that has been asked again and again is, how do you know when you can stop repenting of this? How do you know when the sin is were forgive? Hmm. And I think it's a really good question that we need to answer more regularly. And the answer, I take them to the fourth chapter of Mosiah, The Book of Mormon. We read the first three verses.
These people have heard Benjamin deliver the words of the angel about the coming of Christ, the Atoma of Christ, putting off the, and so forth. And the people respond, you know, they respond to, what is they? They said, We believe all the words you've spoken. We know of their surety and true what the people do. When Benjamin finishes that, what we have the fourth chapter, they basically are on the ground and they say, we, how do they put it?
The, the toning blood, maybe be cleansed by the atoning blood of Christ that his spirit might be with us. Well, the account says after they had done that one, they had peace of conscience. Two, they felt joy. And three. And anyway, there's a series of things when I've asked, when I've asked young people, we'd read that in class and I'd say, Okay, how do you know when the spirit's with you again? No, I'd say, How do you know from this your, your sins have been forgiven? They'd say, Well,
you feel peace of conscience. Good. Another one, you feel joy. Good. Anything else? So we got down peace and joy. Anything else? No. The spirit came with, came to be with them again. Meaning if in fact if a man living in sin, if you can say that no person as a scripture say the Holy Spirit cannot dwell on a, that's unclean. And then what does it mean when the spirits dwelling? You're longer and you no longer the spirit is the's way of saying you're back on course.
And larger of the is the's way of on course the Spirit. If you can, if you can live a life like that, then the spirits can be with you. And what that means is you are on saving ground. If you were to drop dead right now, you're gonna go to paradise and enjoy celestial glory one day. Why? Because as Paul said, the Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, the earnest of the Spirit, meaning it's God's earnest money on us. It's God's statement to us. I'm sending my spirit to tell you,
to certify to you. I intend to save you. Hmm. And if you can keep the spirit with you, you're right. On course. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess at least when question of where's the grace in all this? Because sometimes it can feel like your relationship with the holy ghoster always, it's always this transaction, I'm always trying to earn you. Right. And so where does the grace of it all fit in to this doctrine?
Well, when we are working with someone, for example, who's in transgression, or if I'm working with myself, I'm in transgression, I begin to appreciate that the forgiveness comes by virtue of the, the spill blood of Jesus Christ, the atonement. Mm-hmm. , the atonement of Christ is what accomplishes forgiveness. But that the Holy Ghost is the medium by which that's accomplished. And in that sense, the Holy Ghost, as you mentioned, becomes the cleanser. He becomes the sanc.
And so what the spirit does is when my sins are forgiven, I'm living in a condition I'm in Right. Relationship to God. And at that point, from that point forward, the spirit continues to work on me and work on me. And I become a little more and a little more holy. And that's the sanctifying process. That's a lifetime process. But over time, you continue to keep that spirit with you. And the spirit begins to reveal new things to you. Yes.
That the spirit begins to work on your conscience and things that you cannot do now that you had no problem doing five years ago. Mm-hmm. , which means your conscience is being educated and your desires are being educated and your judgment is being developed so that at a certain point you don't need a major revelation on something. You could pray about it, but it's very clear you knew already what was the right thing to do. Yeah.
And so I, I think as we know, and we have to appreciate that it's through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, that it takes place. The Holy Ghost is an act of the's. Grace is a, it's a gift. Holy meaning in this casem, deny yourselves of all in God. And if you shall deny yourselves of all in godness and love God with all your mind, ministry, then is his grace sufficient. And you become and you become home. Yeah. Makes that makes sense. Yeah.
Yeah. And I see often that I equate that, and maybe it's attached to this doctor as far as the love of God, that, you know, that there's, as far as like earning God's love, obviously God loves us, however Yes. To feel a higher level of that love that comes through these sanctifying processes. That's right. And so, I've often said it this way, the sun doesn't shop, stop shining because I put a a bag over my head, it's still shining. Yeah. I've just blocked the light. And so its with God,
he doesn't stop loving us when we say he loves us through it. I mean, you only have to take this to a, your own personal level when your children do awful things. Do you say one day, that's it. No longer love them. Yeah. Right. No, you love them. He loves us through it all. But there's certain things he can't do for us in the same way. Yeah. Uh, and so yeah. The, the love is forever there, but when a person lets themselves get into serious sin,
they're not gonna feel the love of God in the same way. Yeah. The love of God's there, but you've put the bag over your head and you can't see and feel the light anymore. Right. And that to me, uh, connects to, I think you did a whole chapter on the doctrine of justification and
sanctification. And, and I really feel like this is at the core of our doctrine, but we miss it a lot because it's so easy to see things in the justification side of things of, Okay, am I justifying to receive the spirit when in reality yes, you are always justified to receive the spirit cuz Christ justified you. Yes. We're in the sanctified area of things. That's right. And the justifying thing you can know when you've been forgiven of sin, as we've talked about. Mm-hmm. ,
the sanctifying is such a slow process. As President Ben said, the not even the changes that are taking, sometimes it takes someone else to say, Man, you are really changed. What do you mean slow process? And the changes are in many cases imperceptible, but they're real. Yeah. Now, at the certain point you can look back on your life and say My long ways, but you didn't feel those little pieces of progress as you were taking them.
Yeah. The spirit is something we grow into. Yeah. That, that's the way the prophet Joseph Smith described it when he says, We learn the spirit of revelation. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And I think that's such a helpful dynamic. You know, in the, when you are mentoring somebody through a transgression or whatever is like remove the black and white of you either have the spirit or you don't, or you made this decision, therefore you don't have it. But no,
like Christ has justified you. Yes. And you're in that process. So now you're sanctifying yourself through actions and through the atonement of Jesus Christ that uh, you're gonna figure out how to actually change so that that spirit is so you can feel a higher level of that spirit. I think, for example, the role of a bishop or state president, their many roles, but one major role is to guide the process of repentance and to help that person by saying things.
And that's true when you sense it saying you're making progress, You can it. And, and it's very real. You somebody, they're changing. They may not appreciate that they're changing, but you've seen it, you can see it in them. And that's one of the roles that the, that the priesthood leader, the, the, uh, legal administrator plays, is helping that process move forward and tutoring the person in sin along the way.
And really focusing on that you're not progressing in order to earn your way back into heaven. You're progressing so that you can feel a higher level of his spirit. That's right. Right. That's right. Cause that can be such a shaming state to be in that I I'm cast out, I am no longer counted among, among his children. Right. And that, that's where the adversary wants you to be. Well, and there's this, there's this passage in the doctrine covenants that people take the wrong way.
You know, it's the idea that if you, but if you sin the love of God, you'll not experience the love of God. Well again, that means not that God doesn't, He's not that God stops the loving you cuz you sin. It means you can't feel the love of God in the same way. Yeah. Again, you've distanced yourself from. Right. Yeah. That's powerful. Anything else as far as justification sanctification be worth mentioning? Well.
It's surprising how many times, especially in the Book of Mormon, you'll hear the prophet that's teaching or speaking refer to a forgi that our sins be forgiven and that we can be made pure. Well, there's your two processes. Our sins are forgiven justification. Mm-hmm. we're being made pure san Yeah. And they're there and we just, we don't see them.
Sometimes. Yeah. And, and it's such a fun exercise, you know, as far as the, the clean heart, pure hands of pure heart dynamic dichotomy that's throughout the scriptures, that's fun to look for. And interest is this notion. And retaining remissions talks about that in chapter four of Maiah. He says, And now for the sake of retaining a remission of sins and kinda two steps, he, one he said, Always acknowledge God's great. Always acknowledge the fact that you're an unprofitable servant.
That without him you're nothing acknowledging my nothingness. And he's everything. That's the process of living in a state of perpetual gratitude, state of gratitude. If you can live like that, always acknowledging God in all things, you're a, the thing Benjamin in is other way that retain remission to retain that remission mission set, get out and serve people.
Yeah. It's powerful. So I wanna shift to, um, another dynamic that I, two areas that, and I don't know if this is the right word, but sometimes we, we weaponize the Holy Ghost in certain ways. And for example, maybe somebody and not weaponize, maybe we use it almost as a, a way to manipulate situations and whether in our favor or in the favor of, of the person. So for example, someone may come in with some, some strong doubts of, you know, some of the tenets of the gospel.
And so we feel like, you know, there's been several stories where the, uh, the believer steps back and boldly gives a testimony. And, and, and our hope is that we are sort of projecting the spirit upon this person to, to change them and their thinking before our eyes. And even, you know, elder, uh, President Ballard has mentioned, you know, gone are the days where we simply testify and these answers go away.
So what do we understand about that dynamic of sort of trying to project and aim the spirit of people in order to, to change them? Is that a thing? I don't think so. I, I think what happens is if I'm sitting with a person who's wrestling with the faith issue or wrestling with a historical question, wrestling with a doctrine question, I think in many cases to come on really strong with testimony
is again, almost a shaming mechanism. Mm-hmm. , I think they need to know that I believe this all my heart and that this has been particularly the way I've come to appreciate this and the way I've come to understand this is as follows. And I do believe it's true. I don't think you overpower people with, with the spirit. I don't think you,
I don't think the spirit allows us to do that. Mm-hmm. , I think it would be a, I think we be in many ways a sham to, to think if I could just either speak loud enough or, or use the holy tone, uh, enough times they're gonna come around. No, you can't manipulate the spirit. It's like a person saying, prepare yourself, brothers and sisters we're have in our Sunday school class, we're gonna have a great experience. Well, I wonder if the Holy Ghost isn't somewhere saying, Oh really, . Let's.
Why manufacture the right. You can't manipulate the elicit the weer music coming in. Whatever. We can't force it. Yeah. You can't force testimony. Packer said that you can't, words like force compel do not describe our relationship with the spirit. In fact, he goes on to say, Do not be too eager to gain great spiritual experience. He said, seek to help it along, but be patient and don't force it or else you'll open the way to be misled.
In other words, it's not the the Lord spirit, it's another spirit. Yeah. And so, yeah, I, I think there's, what you mentioned here is very true. And. I think Bitar has even mentioned this, that the phrasing we use that, you know, received the Holy Ghost. It, it's you, an individual has to receive it. It can't be forced upon. And, and that's right. You can set the stage right and Right. And hopefully you can stimulate that,
but it can't be forced or contr. I. Think it's perhaps related to this verse in the third chapter of John where Jesus is talking Nicodemus and he says the wind blow of where it listed. Now here's the sound thereof, but can't not tell when it come and whether it going, well wind is just one translation of the word puma in Greek, but also translated as spirit. And, and so if you's saying the spirit comes and goes as it, you can't always control it. Yeah. And I think that is an important lesson.
Now it doesn't mean you don't have it with you. What I've come to appreciate, it's two different things to have the spirit and to always feel the spirit in the, in the same way. They're not necessarily the same. Yeah. Someone, for example, I've often noticed this among religious educators who do this daily, and the odds are they're not gonna come out every hour on fire. Right. And yet the students were deeply moved by what they had to say and their wife
says to 'em, Well Bill, how did class go? And you say, Well frankly, I was kind of bored. I didn't feel much of. Anything. Just another day of the office. Another day at the office. But, but you had students write you emails and send you texts saying, Oh, that's the most wonderful thing I've ever heard. Doest mean he didn't have the spirit. No. It's just that we're not gonna always feel it in the same way. Yeah. And that's the beauty about this doctrine is that not everybody in the room has
to be on their A game for it to work. Right. Yeah. I'll hear people say too, you need to have, in order to have an effective class, you gotta have everyone making a comment. You cannot allow, people just sit there quietly. And I found myself saying what sometimes this person back there that's sitting quietly is doing some serious pondering on what's being said. And so there's another example. I don't think you we're going, we're not gonna create a spiritual experience for this person. Yeah.
And that he speaks out. Doesn't mean he's learning a great deal. Yeah. And so I think it all has to do with cannot manufacture or monopolize the spirit. It's, it's not within our grasp to do that. Yeah. Another scenario, sometimes we maybe try and create a manipulative situation is, is Anthony Sweat. Uh, BYU professor calls it the spiritual Trump card.
Where that's say a typical scenario, you're an award council meeting, you're debating one aspect of whatever it is in, in the ward and the bishop or somebody else in the room uses the phrase, I have a strong feeling that Yeah. And then fill in, fill in the brain. Right. And so that, like Trump said, like, Well you can't, there's my Trump card. You can't argue that cuz I have a strong feeling that Right. And that completely implodes the, the council setting.
So what are your thoughts on that? Yeah. I agree with you. Totally. I'm reminded of, a colleague of mine at BYU for many years told me of an experience where his younger sister had come to BYU to go to school. And in her ward this, this fellow walked up to her one day and said, uh, you need to know that it was, it's been made known to me that in the premortal life you promised to marry me. He laid out all the Trump cards he had right there.
. And she looked at him and she said, Well, I may have made that mistake once, but I it. That's. Great. No, I think, I think that it's not only cruel is wrong. Yeah. To do that, I think we have to be very careful about things. Like, I feel impressed that my old buddy Joseph McConkey used to call it spiritual grandstanding. A teacher stands up and he or she is teaching and suddenly the teacher says something like, I sense that there's someone in this room that's feeling this,
this and this. And so what I'm about to say is just for you, that's spiritual grant and standing. And I've always said to, to the faculty, when someone had asked me about it, I said, Look, teach what you feel impressed to say, they just don't tell the Holy Ghost just gave me this because that's being almost boastful. Mm-hmm. like that. It's like you say it's it's arm bending. It's saying you better pay attention to this cuz it came from the spirit.
Now if it came from the spirit, give it, deliver it. Just don't announce it. Yeah. Does that make sense? Sure. Sure. And and I would imagine that, again, there's nothing wrong with using that phrase, but I think that's a maybe an opportunity for leaders to say, you may have that feeling that we should go that direction, but I'm sure someone else has a feeling Google another direction and let's talk about that. Cuz that's how we can get to some, some serious inspiration. Agreed.
Right. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Now I, another dynamic that we, and this is one I I've really struggled with, so I'm interested to, to dig into this and, and get your perspective. Sometimes we, as our roles are requires sometimes we are tasked to make calling in the ward. Right. And so, and like you said at the beginning, the spirit is almost in everything. Right? This doctrine is everywhere and it's, you know, influencing us in so many directions that we probably aren't even aware of a lot
of those directions. But sometimes it feels like, here we are in a Bishop Rick meeting and every last decision we feel like has to be made through a prompting or the, the guidance of the spirit. And so we may be praying about, you know, the, the third Sunday teacher that's gonna teach twice a year, whatever it is. And we, nobody can move until we have received specific inspiration and revelation for that calling. But at the end of the day, we've been set a partner again.
Can't we just make the call and move on? Like sometimes we, we have to co everything in this came through inspiration or we cannot move on. What what are your thoughts on that dynamic? When I was a state president, uh, we were having a effective, I thought, uh, bishop's training meeting, monthly meeting. And one of the bishop said, Every decision that is made, every calling we make, we pray over individually. Now this is a student ward . Okay. But those are long meetings.
Often, you know how often you have to, you'd have to be on your knees to fill callings every week cuz people are moving. Yeah. You know, I said, I really wouldn't go there if I were you. I think that's, I think that's gonna be a backfire on you. And here's why. Did you pray to start the meeting? Did you ask Lord Spirit to be with you as we make important decisions?
Does that not suffice? Yeah. I mean, is it everything requires an independent prayer's other thing, years that those times those seasons pass unrest as you awful. We haven't done anything wrong. You're just not feeling close to the, for some reason, and it doesn't even mean that aren't, it's just you're not feeling the same way.
Well, I think one day we're gonna look on our lives and I used to the video and that during those times that we were feeling most alone, the, the Lord may well have been with us very close closely with us. I think what we're look at and realize is that as we strive to keep the spirit with, to live our lives in a way that the spirit be with us in an abundance, then gradually over time, the Holy Ghost shapes your judgment.
The Holy Ghost forms your sense of reasoning, the Holy Ghost as we educates your conscience so that before long you are able to sit in a meeting and it just feels right that Jones should be called to, that you didn't necessarily have to down and pray about it right then. And what we'll find one day is that those statements, those decisions that we make were inspired. How so?
Not necessarily that the spirit had to come and prompt me again, but that the spirit has formed my judgment, formed my my thinking. In other words, so that what I do come forward with is the judgment. Yeah. And it's, it's the, and that it's almost too spiritually excessive to pray over every
item. Mm-hmm. just doesn't seem right. Elder Oaks, when he was, uh, years ago in fact spoke devotional and said, uh, he knew of a situation where a man and his wife, when he went shopping, the, the man always went to the store with his, his wife because he wanted to pray over every can that they purchased ELs. And his subtle way said it, it seemed a bit excessive to me. Yeah, well of course. And it's actually crazy. It's gospel crazy.
It's just not necessary. So I think, I think that, that the spirit can guide you in a meeting and that you don't have to pray about every single thing. Yeah. I think you could drive, I think you'd wear yourselves out , like I said, student, you start over or a young people's ward and you start over every semester you got to make ared. And I really appreciate that.
And it goes back to sort of that doctrine of sanctification. Like the, the one way that the Holy Spirit influences us is through that sanctification process. I often wonder what experiences did I have 10 years ago that meant nothing then, but of development of the person to make a certain decision today in a certain way. Right. It's a good way to put it. I, I think the spirit prepares us today for decisions we have to make to.
And going back to the callings that I often see that I refer to as the chalkboard in heaven, we've put so much pressure on ourselves as maybe a bishop brick, that, that God has this chalkboard in heaven with every calling that in our board. And he has a specific name next to every, every calling there. And it, and it's our job through the spirit to determine what's on God's chalkboard.
So it can be on our chalkboard. But a lot of times I would say that, am I wrong in thinking that maybe there's two or three people that could feel like calling and God really doesn't, doesn't have an opinion one way or the other. You know, give you illustration. I've seen this happen many times state to called and, uh, in the days and weeks preceding that two or three different men, good men, men that definitely are not seeking to be the state president. Mm-hmm. . Now only one of them.
Right. There's only one spot. I think that's the Lord's way of saying you would be perfectly Yeah. Meaning your life is Yeah. That may not be who's called, I'll share this story. This could be misunderstood. Isn't Joseph McConkey that when his father had returned his father Bruce had returned from state conference assignment as were sitting down to eat. He, he, his dad is interesting. That's a great principle. You know what I'm saying?
Now I could see where people could misunderstand that and I hope don't, but I think it's, I maybe be called apostle, there's one in mind, but as far as who's home evening leader, not that it's unimportant, but that maybe you don't need a major revelation for that. Yeah. And I think Elda Macon's point is very interesting once that person's called the Lord fits them to that assignment. Yeah. Isn't that a great concept?
Yeah, it is. And I think there's scripture in, uh, 1 28 verse nine where it talks about this bold doctrine that, you know, we, we often see revelation as a one way street from heaven to us, but oftentimes we make the decision and it goes to heaven and then is stamped as revelation. I think that God honors his servant.
Yeah, yeah. For sure. And, and oh, I was gonna mention just that oftentimes we, we, we rarely say that this individual's called by God, but they are called of God and of his, his process and of his, of his doctrine. Right. And I think that's helpful to, to see there. So. Exactly. Well this has, uh, been a fun discussion. Insightful for sure. Um, police enjoyment. Yeah. And any other aspect as far as it relates to leadership in the Church of the
Holy Ghost. I mean obviously there's could be a whole book on that, but anything that you'd wanna mention before we wrap up? Maybe something that comes to my mind is something that I, I talk about in the book toward the very end and, and I, I keep making reference to my old friend Joseph McConkey. I miss him. But we learned that he and his wife Brenda, had been called to serve his mission presence to preside over mission in Ed
Scotland not long before they left. My wife, Sean and I, who were good friends, McConkey went and had with around very casually and enjoyed ourselves. I remember to Joseph been that's been sent to, you'd sent volumes of to, and I cant, excuse me, addresses by the general authorities to new mission presidents from previous times. He said, Yeah, I've been through it all. I said, Well, what do you think? And he said, Well this is back when the little white handbook, uh,
the missionaries rules thes and the don't there. And he said, I've, I've gone through everything and I've gone through this, this little book. He said, There's good stuff there. And it's certainly correct, he said, But I tried to come up with something that could distill message in that little handbook and missionaries. Is there something he said that could not to worry about keeping 63 rules? Is there an overarching guiding principles be
involved here? He said, what I came up with is this. He said, I wanna teach my missionary to understand this, I would never do anything that would cost the I. And it sort became, and I think if we, by that standard, I never do anything would cost the influence. That'll effect places where we go and don't go. Things we say and don't say people even we affiliate with and shouldn't
affiliate with. It's a powerful statement. Now, I think for those call to, in the church, especially priesthood administration isn't their call to be super human, but they are called to try to align their will with of God and to live in a manner so that the Holy Ghost can work with them. Cause it is, it's not just now that the Holy Ghost can work with that man to be a better man. The Holy Ghost now works with that man to help make others better men and better
women. And so it's a, it's a sobering responsibility to be a priest leader. It's sobering to leader in any face church. Why? Because souls precious in the sight. So there's a beautiful saying in the Book of Mormon, the of Al has just al the delegated responsibility as high priest by King was Iowa. And he's overwhelmed. He's overwhelmed with transgression in the church. He's never encountered this before. So what does he do? He takes the transgressors to the king and says, Here,
I brought them for you to judge. The king says, No, I deliver them back to you to judge. In other words, that's why I called you. It says, And now the spirit of Al was again troubled before he feared that he would not do right. Hmm. That is so moving to me. I know that feeling. You know that feeling. Yeah. When you're dealing with people's lives, we're gonna make mistakes here and there, but there's some things you just don't wanna make mistakes with.
And one of them is a person's soul. Joseph Smith, only fool tri. So I think as a leader in the church, we strive. The best of. That concludes this throwback episode of the Leading Saints podcast. That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints podcast. We'd love to hear from you about your questions or thoughts or comments. You can either leave a comment on the uh, post related to this [email protected] or go to leading saints.org/contact and send us your perspective or questions.
If there's other episodes or topics you'd like to hear on the Leading Saints podcast, go to leading saints.org/contact and share with us the information there. And we would love for you to share this with any individual you think this would apply to, especially maybe individuals in your ward council or other leaders that you may know who would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed and remember, go to leading saints.org/fourteen to gain access to Rob Ferrell's four
hour presentation at no cost. Visit leading. Saints.org/it. Came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the Declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away.
And to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.