Okay. So you're here for some great church leadership content. The podcast is great. But there's also another piece of content you need to be enjoying each week. It is the leading saints email newsletter. Now I get it Email newsletters feel so 2006, you know? But it isn't as old fashioned as you might think. It's actually 1 of the most popular pieces of content that leading saints produces. Each week, I share a unique leadership thought that can only be found in
the newsletter. I keep it short and sweet Most can read in less than 5 minutes. And then we share with you recent content you might have missed, throwback episodes and leading saints events that happen more often than you might anticipate. If you want to make sure you are on the email list, simply visit leading saints dot org slash 14, that's leading saints dot org slash 1 4. That will also get you 14 days access to our full library of content not available to the
general public. So look for leading saints in your inbox by going to leading saints dot org slash 14 or click the link in the show notes. I would be rude if I didn't take the time to explain to the newer listeners, what leading saints is. Here goes. Leading scenes as an organization that started as a hobby blog in 2010, and then really caught some traction in 2014 when the podcast started. We talk about all things leadership in the context of the Church
of Jesus Christ Latter Saints. We aren't owned by the church, but we have a great relationship with them and always aim to be faith promoting, even though we talk about the tough topics. My name is Kurt Frank. I'm generally the voice you here as the host of the podcast. I've tried to get other hosts, but people demand my smooth home, and I really enjoy
it. Check out leading saints dot org to really get into the weeds of what leading saints is is and learn all about our mission to help Latter saints be better prepared to lead. We have a return guest on the leading Saints podcast with Brad Eagle who recently wrote a book, and it's a crucial book you need to know about. It is the bishop book. That's the literal title of the book. Experiences with bishop in the Church of Jesus
Christ, Latter saints in their own words. And this is a multi decade project that Brad been working on with his c authors, Ron Mitchell and Camden Robinson, and they interviewed several hundreds of bishop, and their experience of being a bishop, what are the experiences like, the dynamics you experience, but was the hardest part of the easiest part, the fun part of the most enriching part and he put it
all into a book. This will be a fantastic resource for brand new bishop, people who are rem from the good days of of being a bishop, and so we dive into all things Bishop and exploring that experience. It bless my life. Nose blessing others, and it will continue to less people as they're called upon to serve as presiding high priests of the word, the bishop. So here's my interview with Brad Na. Alright, Brad. You wrote another book. You did it. I mean, you're an academic. That's what
you do. Right? Right academic articles, and every now and he get a book. That's right. Now this one's not... This is an academic book. We had a great discussion. We'll link to that episode about your is the business ethics field guide. Right? Correct. Which was a fun discussion, and and that's maybe you'd put you into context the I mean, that's your your main focus is working for the business school at By that
what's your official title there? Yeah. So I'm a professor of Ethics and leadership in the Marriott school, Anna, I also hold the George W Romney and endowed professors in the Married school By. Nice. So that's your main focus here your... Business is Ethics leadership. That's my main focus. And so, yeah, our last interview where I talked about the business Ethics field guide. That's my core area. Yeah. And just an update, which you might find interest.
The j joint Chiefs of staff got a hold of the the business ethics field guide and really liked it. And knew that they had some issues with some of our special operations forces. And so they actually ended up hiring me to create a field guide for our special operations. Oh, really. So during the pandemic, I spent a fair amount of time sitting around talking to our seals and green boys and rangers and marine Raiders talking about the kinds of ethical dilemma that they face.
And then created the Us special operations forces Ethics field guidance and went and trained our special operations, which was an amazing experience. I bet. I might imagine. I bet. And then I bet I just assume you get a lot of opportunity to speak or on this topic around around the world really. Right? I do. And that's a lot of fun. Yeah. So it's it's really a lot of fun. Yeah. I mean this book. Yes. The bishop book. The bishop I mean, if there's not there's never been a more perfect book for
leading saints to talk about. And and I'm so encouraged by this, that for so many years, you know, I've sort of felt like I was the naive 1 that was walking out into this world of content creation and church leadership, and there's others on on the battlefield filled with me year. So, the bishop book experiences of bishop in the Churches Jesus
Christ Latter saints in their own words. So, I have opportunity to review it and really just solid, encouraging any anyone from who's maybe starting as bishop or who has been a bishop or even non members who are like, what's Mean to be a bishop because I what a Catholic bishop is, but you don't look like a Bishop. Right? So what where's the story start for this book Yeah. Story starts. And it... It starts 34 years ago. Wow. So... Yeah. Wow. This has always been a project
in the background. The back burner. Mh. So you might imagine how excited I am that it's finally completely on. I'm holding at least sharing it. Because even you and I have been talking about this project Yeah probably close to a decade. Yeah. So it started 34 years ago, I was in the middle of my doctor program at the university of Washington, and I was studying discipline called business organization and its environment.
Which is how the institution of business basically interacts with all the other institutions, the society, be it values, ethics, government, Mh. Family community, etcetera.
And in the middle, after 2 years, totally out of the blue, I got an offer to be the research direct you're at a new Ceo Institute, Cross the country at Emory University, just been started by a harvard professor, that today is the number 1 Ceo institute in the country, it's now at Yale, but it was a leadership center, and so of a sudden, I was gonna be focusing all my efforts in the study of leadership. I ended up doing my doctor dis on the Ceos and largest companies in the in the
country, which was an amazing experience. Yeah. Just as we were in the process of moving from Seattle to Atlanta, we had a change in our bishop in Seattle. And I remember just thinking a lot about, what does our ward need and is our bishop effective or what would a new bishop need to be to be effective. And so as I got to Atlanta and started reading all the leadership literature I started thinking, gosh, in addition to doing this research on Ceos, I'd be interested in studying bishop.
It's really in terms of leadership, it's where the rubber meets the road. Right? And the Ceo of the ward. Right? Yeah. Exactly. I mean, obviously, stake presidents and obviously, president of the church is is, you know, the the biggest leadership persona. But terms of where things are happening. Yeah. It's really at the bishop level. And so it started off actually as a fairly traditional leadership study.
Traditional leadership studies, you're looking at the behaviors and and traits of a leader to try to determine which of those characteristics and behaviors lead to effectiveness. Mh. And so I'm kinda designing that designing that study and thinking about. Okay. Well, what are the traits and characteristics you might think about for that might help them be effective. And then well, what does it mean to be effective. And the dependent variable is the most critical 1 in any kind
of research. It's like, okay, What are you trying to to help us understand. In this case, bishop effectiveness? So that was kinda what was going on. Mh. I mean, when I'm busy because I got a doctor dis. Yeah. About a year after that, I was at the Academy Management annual meeting, which is where all the professors and management from the all around the world come together. And it always goes over a weekend, And so I'm always looking for, you know, where's is the local war to go to.
And this particular weekend on Saturday evening, I met another member of the church who I good friends with. He said, hey. Do you know where you going tomorrow for church? And I said, no. He said, well, you wanna ride? I've got a rental car. Great. So the next morning, I show up, getting the back backseat of his rental car, and there's another L member who I didn't know. His name's Ron Mitchell. He gets in the back. And so off we go to find the award in Miami. This is pre Gps days.
Yeah. Well, we spent... I don't know, probably an hour and a half looking around Miami for the ward. We never found it. Oh, wow. We never made it to church. But meanwhile, Ron Mitchell and I got to know 1 another very well. And 1 of the things that we talked about was my idea of this bishop study and he said, well, actually, I was a young bishop. I've already served as a bishop. And he said to me said, so what do you think is the most difficult thing
that Bishop go through? And I said, well gosh. Obviously, lots of difficult things. Right? I mean, you gotta try to balance all the things you're doing with your work and your family and the calling, you've got difficult welfare issues. You gotta try to figure out. You got people, you know, having faith crises. You've got tragedies, people, you know, die eye and un timely circumstances, you got teen pregnancies, you know, family issues, and he said, yep. Yep. All those can be difficult.
He said, but for my experience, for a lot of bishop, not all bishop, but for a lot of bishop. The most difficult thing they will go through is being released. So true. So true. Are you've been released. Yeah. So you to what that's liked to I had not served as a bishop at that point. Mh. And that kinda came as a bit of a shock to me. I thought well, gosh. You know, for most bishop, all give going through all those difficult things, Big release is gonna be such a relief.
And while this that's partially true as we've now done the research over the last 30 years, I found that Ron was right. Mh. For a lot of bishop being released and kinda losing that mantle is a really difficult thing to go through. Yeah. Brings such purpose to your life, and, you know, I have to frame it that it's like you had to stand on the sidelines and of the at atonement of Jesus Christ and see the power of Christ and changing lives and and healing people. And and then suddenly, over
a weekend, it's gone. Right? And and that's the misconception a lot of people think, well, isn't this great now. You can go back to your life, but it's was like, wow. And we know it was so rewarding being in it. So Yeah. In fact, 1 of the fun things done recently is reached out to some folks for endorsements for the book. Mh. And as I've reached out to some bishop who've, you know, served, and as they've read the book, I think every single 1 has discussed the tears that have come to
their eyes. Yeah. As they thought back on their service and the memories that it's brought back to them, And, of course, there are lots of different memories, but no question, the most important and memorable experiences are where you literally are in the position of helping someone to bring themselves back to Christ through his atonement. Yeah. It's a really unique thing, and a really special experience
that Bishop get to have. Yeah. And so from that car ride, did Ron jump on board with your your book project to... Or the research that? He did. He said this sounds great. In fact, I'd love to tell the story. So Ron Mitchell, he's a region's chair at Texas Tech university. That's the highest position you can have as a professor to be sometimes called a university chair Region's chair. He's had an incredible and very successful career.
And he's also incredibly organized. He was an accountant before his academic career. And he has a spreadsheet where he has listed every single project that he's on in his career. Wow. And he was just telling me last year, it number's over 200. Number 1 on that list, the bishop project. Oh, that's awesome. And so you can imagine both he and I are very excited to actually have it completed and and mostly excited about being able
to share it with others. Yeah. So over those 34 years, did the the focus or intent change at all? I mean, how did that go? It did. So we did a first round of interviews. Right? So 1 of the things you often do in research. If you're gonna do a quantitative study where you're, you know, using numbers and
and trying to determine correlations, etcetera. It's often useful to begin with to just do some interviews and see if your ideas make sense and you know, if you're going down the right road or if you need to kinda turn a little bit. And those first set of interviews, we did a bunch of interviews with bishop in Utah as well as some wives and and state presidents, and then also in the east as well. So we got kind of Was front kind of awards. And then so quote unquote, mission field deal awards.
And probably the most important thing that came out about was that the notion of bishop effectiveness miss was like jello. What do you mean by that? Like, it was all over the map? Or It's all over the map? Yeah. People define it differently. People define it differently and
we were like, okay. There's no nailing this jello to the wall we're not gonna be able to come up with the kind of, definition of effectiveness that will allow us to do a good quantitative study looking at characteristics and traits and effectiveness. And so we quickly pivoted away from that. And pivoted more to... Okay. Well, let's just then do interviews and and, basically, I get, people's thoughts. And experiences on what the experiences is like.
Yeah. So it became much more of an oral history kind of thing as opposed to a quantitative leadership study. Yeah. And, of course, that was really under underrated when we read Elder Hale talk on his services is bishop Mh. And he starts out by talking about the fact that he has served as bishop 3 times. And each of those times, he needed to be something very different. So the demands of the calling were very different. He was a very different bishop in each of those 3 experiences.
And so we went, okay. Yeah. I guess, us trying to nail down what effectiveness is. Was definitely going down the wrong road. So I guess we can use Elder Holland analogy of when, you know, he got the inspiration to go down 1 road when they were at... Oh, yeah. We're... When they were at the and they only went what a mile or 2 and what hit a dead end. And then what, wait. Why didn't heavenly have any father, you know, give us the inspiration to go that way?
And he said, well, it makes sense because then whatever. I don't remember it was 40 or 50 miles. They had to drive the other way. They had complete confidence that they were then on the right road. Mh. And in that way I felt sort of the same way as, like, we were going down this road, but we very quickly learn if that was not a productive road. And then the other road who went down, has been much more productive. So we feel blessed through having done that.
Yeah. I've... It's sort of been on the... A similar journey with leading Saints. I think early on, I would hope that, you know, I... In our human nature, we want, like, what are the 5 principles or the behaviors, like, just give it to us. Right? Okay And maybe if you're writing a Ceo book for a secular audience, maybe you
could get there. Like, you're here's some best practices to get your, you know, the the revenues up or to change culture or whatever, But this experience is unique in a lot of ways of because every word's different, that the area is different. The the effectiveness can be very different. And and the fact that we... There's no, like, prerequisite of experience or degrees it's like, your mechanic. Here you go. You know, you're a a Phd. Here
you go. Let's see how you do And it's and it really is the great equal eyes because it takes us to a place where we have to turn to God and seek his revelation. Right? So the last few years, Ron and I have been referring to the Bishop Miracle. And I choke up, but it really is a miracle. Yeah. The bishop in the church of Jesus Christ of latter his saints are a miracle. You take... As you said, people from all backgrounds and you you you plop them in, and
it's amazingly effective. Yeah. And so, you know, I look at into different experiences as you said, you know, the different circumstances. And is it perfect? No. It's not perfect. Right. Nobody's perfect that there's a lot of mistakes made at times. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So... But it's amazingly effective You know, I think about... You know, you... I'd be curious to hear your experience. My experience. I I... I'm kinda jumping jumping ahead. I'm about 10 years after
Yeah. But, 12 years after starting this study. I was called to be a bishop. My situation was it was a new ward So they were taking 3 words and creating a fourth. Mh. So my word was a part of the... Each of the 3 awards. Well, I had served on the high council, so I knew a few people from the other 2 wards, but not most of them. So my first task was to bring together a group who were leaving wards they had been to been with some for decades. And trying to create a new family,
unity in that ward. And, you know, that was a challenge. I think we did it pretty well, but but that was my challenge. And then the second part of my service was that we were building a new steak center. Mh. Just right by my house. And so that was, obviously, a big part of, of my time was you know, the church builds the building, but is permits you've gotta get and and a number of things that need to happen. In in this case, the state president live 40 minutes away.
Normally, state presence or the folks who are in charge of building and and interacting with the church in terms of buildings. And early on, he said Brad, you live across the street. And you're also... You have a business background. I live 40 miles away or 40 minutes, whatever it was. And I'm a physician Ob GYN. I'm gonna delegate that to you. And so I spent a lot of time with that.
And 1 of the things that, I'm I really feel great about is that the members of our ward were really active in our community and we had terrific relationships with the leadership of our community and just the members of our community in general saw us very positively, which was really helpful in getting the permits on time and getting that building built without any kind of difficulty. And it also kind feels good because the Pittsburgh temple,
which was just completed. The open house is in August, the dedication is in September that temple was built right next to that steak center. Oh, well, and there were virtually no trouble. We had such a good relationship with a community that it it went off without a hitch. And so you know, most bishop don't have the experience of having to bring together a desperate disparate group to create a new a new award.
Most bishop aren't gonna have the experience of having to build a building and doing an open house. And so it was it was a unique and fun experience for me. But again, it kinda goes to the notion that we're all gonna have different experiences and bring different things to the fore. I think probably 1 of the things that helped me is that I was already as a professor at the University of Pittsburgh, fairly involved in the community. Like, I was the chair of the Pittsburgh business ethics awards
program. Mh. And, you know, reaching out, and, of course, I had lots of students from all over, but that also opened doors for me to be able to meet with our local school officials to meet with the mayor and the city manager. And so once again, it's set that uniqueness is like, oh, that was actually very helpful for me whereas someone else wouldn't necessarily need what needed what Yeah. I brought to the
table. Yeah. Tell me about that, just the interview process, you sitting mentioned earlier on is sort of you're aiming for, you know, where some effectiveness principles, but then just describing the experience. So How'd had you go about that interview process to to get those experiences? Yeah. So we started with a few steaks, and we just reached out to the bishop and explain that we were just trying to
understand the experience of being a bishop. And so I think you know, just about everybody agreed to to meet with this. 1 thing, of course, you're very sensitive to is confidentiality. Yeah. There are a lot of things that bishop do that are very confidential. And so we very sensitive to that confidentiality. But we did the interviews. We audio taped them. We transcribe them. So that's the data we're working. So this was in, like, a survey. You've sent a bunch of surveys. You
were interviewing them. Face to face. Correct. All the interviews were were face to face. Yep. Wow. And it was a great experience. Just sitting there we actually did 3 waves of interviews. So we did 1 in the sort of, I know early mid nineties and then another 1 Decade later about another 1, 7 or 8 years later. What a great experience. Yeah. Yeah. I mean just sitting there, listening to Bishop tell you their experiences and it's just testimony building. It's faith building. It was a fun project
talking to their bishop. My wife actually did most of the interviews of the bishop wives. Oh, wow, I mean, it was a... You know, it was a great experience for her and then talking to these steak presence. It's... Again, it's just such a faith affirming experience. And as I write in the book, it was incredibly helpful for me when I was called bishop. Yeah. You're. That was be awesome.
I mean, I I... We had only done 1 wave of the interviews at that point, but I had all the interview transcriptions. And because it was a new award and I had to figure out who all the members were and I had to put together Ward Counsel of you know, some of the members who are my own word I knew, but the other 2, not so much. So it was... I had about a month. From the time I was called until the new ward was created. They most bishop get, you know, a week.
Yeah generally. But I had a month, it was over Christmas time, so I had a few extra hours. And so I pulled out all those interview transcripts and write them all. And they were incredibly helpful to me. As I started my service. Yep. You know. Everything from the mundane of how do you... Yeah. Do you run award And how do you lead it? And how do you balance administration versus administering to 1 bishop who had mentioned that he had over invested. And he said it's really easy to over
invest in members. You go, how can you over invest? I mean, Yeah. You're trying to be, like, Christ. Is like, you're giving your all to them, but he said, yes. That's true. However, what you have to be careful about is not taking away somebody's problem. Mh. He said, it's their problem. They need to solve it. You're there to help them, assist them, but he said, I took the problem away from them and made it my problem. Mh. And
that was a mistake. Yeah. And so just that 1 piece of advice is, you know, as you know, as a bishop, you're helping people who've got problems. Yep. And I just really always remember. Okay, your job is to help and assist and bless them and support them, but it's their problem. Not yours. Your problem is to help them with their problem. Mh. Yeah. And and this
tells little things... Suddenly you gain this new level of self awareness, and now you can approach to, you know, this role more effectively. In... Like, you have a broken up into... So there's different sections, and then chapters within those sections. So the bishop is divine called. A bishop is a leader. A bishop is a servant, A bishop is a family man, a bishop is an individual and then, you know, different dynamics in each 1 of those things. And this is, like, you talked about
from your experience. You had The man you're the interviews transcripts there to... Like, it's not like, you know, Brad found the secret. It's in this book. Right? To... But just to sit with these things and and get different perspectives and think Like, I didn't... I wouldn't have thought about it that way now, I can put that in my in my cache of, knowledge and move forward and maybe be a little bit more effective or skip over those pitfalls that would have gotten me otherwise.
Right? Yeah. Exactly. In fact, that kinda brings me 03:60 I told you about my first interaction with Ron Mitchell and in talking about the difficulty of being released. So I had another experience This is Ron. This was actually in the Lu temple several years ago when I was in Lu. We were working on the book, and, Ron is a temple worker. And so we went to his temple shift, and I went and did ceiling. And after
the ceiling, he wasn't done yet. So the sealer and a couple of other patrons and I were just sitting in the ceiling room talking. And the Seal said, so I understand you're here working on this bishop project, you know, tell us more about that. And so I was talking about that. And 1 of the patrons said, you know, I just got done serving as a bishop. I was released just a few months ago, and he said, it's been difficult. I said. I've actually been depressed. Mh. I've really been depressed the last
few months. And then I told him the story about my interaction with Ron, and I said you might be interested to know that we actually start the book with the release. Yeah. And then I shared the initial story that we tell in the book about the Bishop who was released and as he was driving home from the church had to pull over because he was just so overwhelmed with grief. Yeah. And cried for 45 minutes on the side of the road.
Before he could compose himself enough to drive the rest of the way home. And said, the reason we started with that is because it's such a common experience. And that brother, I saw the weight fall off his shoulders. Yeah. Physically. Mh. I just It's like, wow. Because he hadn't supposed that this was a common experience. Yeah. He was kinda feeling badly that he was that he was feeling this way. And for him to have this validation that no. No. Nothing's wrong with you.
This is a normal experience. In fact, it's a very very common experience Again, it it was just miraculous. I could literally see the weight fall off of his shoulder as I told him that. Is there and we can take a quick pause here as far as I'd love to... In that section. Let's see. The The release. Is there maybe a quote or a story or whether you read it or you wanna just articulate it. But I think that's... I'd I'd love to spend more time with with that
dynamic because... It is a more common, but less not commonly talked about. You know? Yeah. It's an amazing experience. And let me begin with little bit of academics actually. Okay. So my boss at the Ceo Institute. His name is Jeffrey Son valley, very well known professor of leadership and corporate governance, and Jeff wrote business week winner the best book of 19 88, a book called the Heroes farewell well. And it's about when Ceo's retire. Interesting. And he has a model,
he was a harvard professor. So it's a 2 by 2. Okay. If you're our professor, you gotta develop a 2 by 2. Okay. And the 2 dimensions in his 2 by 2 are heroic stature and heroic mission. So as Ceo, you have heroic stature. Right? I mean you're the ceo of the company. Everybody's looking up to you. You have the stature, and it's easy to kinda have that go to your head. And, you know, you got an ego because everybody's kinda looking up to you and and you're you're the person.
And then there's heroic mission, which is from this experience or from this position, you can actually accomplish things. You've been put in an authority position where you can accomplish things. And 1 of the examples he uses for, heroic mission for a leader anyway is, well, he differentiates it from an individual contributor versus a leader. So he says if you're in an Orchestra, and you play the Violin in, and you retire. Can you still play the violin?
Sure. Sure. You can continue playing the violin? What if you're the orchestra leader? You lost your instrument. Yeah. Wow. So you you're kinda lost. There's the... You don't have your instrument. So you've lost your heroic mission. You don't have something to accomplish things with. And it's the same with bishop or a Ceo? Yeah. When you released, you know, think about all the great things you were trying to do as bishop. Mh. You were trying to bring unit unity. You were trying to
bless the youth. You're trying to help people obtain the blessings from the atonement of Christ. All these things, and then overnight. Yeah. We're in a moment. Yeah. It's gone. And that's what happens with Ceos as well. They retire and poof all that's gone. And then the Heroic stature part, that also goes away. With Ceos, we often talk about going from who's who to who's that. Right. Right. And, you know, in the church, we're also very good at that. We're also
good at boeing, okay. Bishop. Oh, bishop. And you're not in the picture anymore. Right. Back to I think Elder Oo talked about this once. He talked about, sort of the the stature that comes along with calling. And I like what he said. He said, you have to be very careful not to inhale. Yeah. Right? Yep. And that actually was 1 of the other things. I think it was helpful to me as I was called Z bishop and was able to read these transcripts. Was that was, you know, don't inhale. Yeah.
It's not about you. Right. It's about the calling you're in. And so understand that, you know, you're gonna get released, and, you know, and I I was also much more prepared for the release. Because of the work I had done. So I tried very hard not to inhale. Yeah. In fact, it was interesting. I did tell Ron when I was called Know, I said, don't tell anybody. Yeah. But I just got called, and he said, okay. Well, you have a rare gift. You have a month to see how people treat you.
Before you're the bishop. So kinda watch for the next few weeks. How people treat you and see if, you know, how it changes when you become when you become the bishop. So anyway, bishop are going through that experience of losing both heroic mission and heroic stature. Mh And some are able to get through that just fine. Others struggle with, losing the heroic admission, but did really inhale. And so don't necessarily have a problem with the stature. Some inhale. Yeah. And some have some problem
just becoming a regular member again. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that the idea of a of avoiding the inhaling for me, like, it was also say a 10 year where I was in a bishop break. I was the bishop then in a steak presidency where... Almost by the end of that, you couldn't... It almost like, would you absorb it through your skin. You know, it's... Even if you try not doing hell. It was just so used to being recognized in meetings or Oh, well, you have the final thought. Right? And it you lose
your identity in it. So when that release does come, and you think, well, I thought I didn't hell, but it sort of just absorbed in me and being aware of that and processing it and and moving on, You know, because that... I'd love that framing of the... The stature of it. Right? That recognize that it's there. And you are on that mountain for a while, and then it... It's okay if it's difficult to come down from that mountain. Right? Yeah. As you say, Yeah.
It's it's it's hard just... As you... Like, the analogy user, or you just sort of absorb it through your git. Right Yeah. You don't even have to inhale. Right Yeah. Yeah. So. Let me let me share... Let me share just 1 story from the book. So this bishop says, on a Sunday that I was released. My counselors and I passed this
sac to the members of the congregation. It was supposed to signify an active service, but that was very emotional for us to do, and then, of course, the state president got up and release me and said that I could go sit with my family, and that was very, very hard for me to do. I felt maybe like a missionary does who has to go hurt home early from his mission because of an illness. It was like I had finally gotten an award running smoothly and I was being pulled out.
I was only in there for 2 and a half years. And I felt pains of guilt. I didn't feel a sense of relief that I thought I was going to feel. I felt like I wanted to keep doing this. I didn't want to stop. After helping the new bishop with the transition, there was nothing else for me to do, and I felt lost. After church ended, I felt like I shouldn't be going home. I should be calling somebody, checking something or going to see the branch anything, and it was very hard. I was borderline
to press for almost a month. But as I got involved in my new job and got everything ready for our move that took some of the pain off so I could go on, but it was a very difficult thing. It was harder, being released than it was to be called. Yeah. Such a common experience. And I'm so glad again that you've put it in a in a method that people can sit with that and and process other people's experiences and not feel alone, because that's, I think a lot of depression comes from, I'm all alone.
Like, nobody else feels this way when they're released. Right, but it's actually quite common. Yeah. I get to talk to some of those
counseling psychology folks at By. And as we know, our youth are struggling greatly with anxiety and depression and and 1 of the things they do talk about is that very thing that is very helpful to know that other people who are going through similar experiences that you're not alone, and I think that certainly bishop and their wives will feel that as they as they read the book, they'll sort of go, Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm not going through this
by myself. Yeah. Yeah. And then, of course, the other difficult things that happened even during the call, the responsibilities put on your shoulders. I remember when I was being called as the bishop, the steak president said something like, oh, you'll you'll probably lose sleep during this call And I thought, you know, I'm not I sleep pretty well. I've been through a lot of stressful things. I'm good. You know, I probably
won't lose sleep. And then the moment, it was about, you know, 6 months later where I was dealing with this dynamic of a family going through something very stressful, and I couldn't sleep, And I thought, oh, here it is. It's happening. And So, you know, you talk about there's section talking about, you know, the mantle on the job where that he at times you feel like, this... I didn't expect it to be this heavy. And so to hear others articulate that, is really comforting and getting
leaders through those tough times where... It feels like the world is on your shoulders. Right? Yeah. I was actually just looking there's a quotes in the book. I'm not finding it right now, but 1 of the bishop talks about what an emotional experience it is. It is emotionally taxing Yeah. And that is true. And most bishop know when you get home on Sunday evening, you're spent. Yeah. I I think when it comes to being tired,
my experience physical labor makes us tired. Mh. Emotional labor makes us even more tired and spiritual labor makes us even more tired. Mh. When you think about, you know, some of the experiences of the profits who would had these amazing spiritual experiences And what did they say? You know, they were just... Yeah. They were out. No energy left. And I think you sort of experience that to, obviously, not to the same degree, but
to a large degree. When you're serving as a bishop because you're dealing with it's both emotion and spiritual And in 1 of the bishop says it just sort of sucks everything out of you. Right. And, fortunately, we have wives who some of the wives talked about the need to kind of build their husband's back up because they could see that, you know, that had taken so much out of
them. Yeah. Yeah. And I I remember that transition from, you know, I went from being bishop right in the steak presidency, and I remember the first couple sundays in the steak presidency, I came home and I hadn't realized how emotionally spent I was or even mentally spent I was until I had that contrast because we We do these things for so long that by year 4 or 5, you're sort of just assume I'm good. I I feel great, but then the contrast after, like, I was
actually really exhausted. I didn't realize it at least to what that extent. You know? So... Yeah. Well, it's interesting. So you would have probably didn't have a strong a an experience with the release. Right. Because there was something to fill that vacuum. Correct. Those who end up getting called to state president. They tend did not have that same right experience because a, they haven't lost the heroic stature. Right? Now you're actually gonna stake presence Take a little...
Yep. And the heroic mission, it's, like, well, no. Yeah. Now we got a bigger organization that that you're working with. So... Yeah. Yeah. Mine definitely came later. I'd served in that steak presidency for 2 years before we moved and I remember a year after that release. I had this epiphany mower. I looked at my wife and I said, I don't think I have any friends because my friend group was built into that calling. Right? I we had Guys night, but it was called Bishop Night or at steak
B meeting night. We get together and we'd be all focused on a really really valuable efforts and making decisions and joking, and we'd laugh and maybe go off, you know, Gelato after, every once in a while, and that brotherhood, I didn't realize this was actually feeding my soul. And then it was gone, you know, and and I didn't have that anymore, and it really impacted me. It's an amazingly sweet experience. Yeah. Be unified as a Bi brick and as a ward council. I mean, it's just
amazing. I I would have Bi Meetings on Thursday evening and, you know, they were too long. Yeah. Right. Right. But they were too long because we just love being together and and we were, you know, we just had a great time being together. In fact, I ace to joke 1 of my counselors who's just 1 of my best friends. This is wonderful, very efficient. And we would finish Mission meeting. And then he would leave and, generally, the executive secretary, the other counselor, maybe the Kirk
we'd sit around and talk. Yeah. And I remember 1 night, maybe it was an hour after we'd had finished our meeting. My other counselor said, well, the the first counselor... Well, I've just gotten a bunch of emails. He has now completed all of the task that he had from our Bishop break meeting and the rest of us haven't left the building yet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, obviously, those counselors are great to have.
But also this that that brotherhood that sometimes the best conversations happen in the parking lot as you're leaning up against your car, you know, and and really connecting that way. So... And yeah. I I To this day. I still miss that. Yeah. That that intimacy is is just wonderful. Yeah. Now there may not be a clear answer that it comes mind. This is 1 of those questions of who's your favorite child?
Yeah. But was there anything as you went through these interviews, like, anything that the surface that you... Maybe you wouldn't have expected to surface? Anything coming come to my? I think 1 of the most interesting dynamics is that dynamic between a husband and a wife. Yeah. During that experience. I certainly understood it when when I was going through that experience. But before I had that experience, that would
have been a surprise to me. And not necessarily because it's not intuitive, but just if you haven't had that experience, you wouldn't necessarily think about it. Mh. So 1 of the things about marriage is that you share everything. And that's 1 of the things that really unify you and brings you together is you just sharing everything. And then all of a sudden, there's a wall there. Mh. That was never there in your marriage before. Yeah. And it's an important wall, but it's still a wall.
Now all of a sudden, you've got a bunch of things that you just can't share. And so for I know for a lot of the couples, a lot of the bishop and their wives, they talked about how difficult that was that it really was a barrier in their marriage. Now it's not like any of them didn't understand. They all understood, and they all knew that know, that had to be the case, but still it was it was difficult. And, you know, more difficult for some than others, some, you know, didn't have any problem.
And maybe that, you know, that goes to marriages. Right? Marriages are all very different. Yeah. Yeah. In some marriages. We share a lot and stuff, that don't necessarily share so much. But at least for those where they shared a lot that, you know, that was... That was tricky. Yeah. And it's interesting. I think 1 of the messages of the book is that people have different experiences, and it shouldn't bother you that your experience is different from somebody else's experience.
So if it's okay. Let me share a comment from, this is from the wife of a stake president, and she said the following. Talking about something they did. She said, I had a very educational experience. In our stake, they... Actually, we had a bishop retreat every once in a while. They invited the wives to come and spend part of the time with the stake president's wife. It was just sort of a support group for Bishop wives. You know, how do you do this? How do you be the wife
of bishop? I was amazed at the variety and how differently different women were experiencing it. Some of their experiences I can relate to, and some of it I thought, I cannot relate to this at all. This is just not the role I'm in or it's just not the word I'm in or it's just not the husband I have. I mean, there are so many variables that affect what it's like being the bishop of a wife.
It was perfectly clear to me that my experience was just 1 possibility that was very unique because of the particular situation we were in. Yeah. So true. So, you, I served as a bishop the time where I had very young children. You know, In fact, when I got caught, I had no children and we...
So and it was this dynamic that I couldn't of anticipate until I lived it where I would come home from a Tuesday night, you know, bishop meeting, where I was bathing in the spirit and revelation and had these great experiences and Brotherhood and well, she had been on her, you know, fourth watch of you know, insert whatever children's movie and just spend, you know, and and then as those worlds you know, Met, it was sort of like,
oh, my is going great. How's is your Well, let tell you I'm like, well, you know, this that sometimes of that dissonance of, like, how can we reconcile this and It really is a bishop or AAA family calling when someone's called
as as a bishop. And I've heard of some steak presence who when they do the sustaining vote in church, they had the whole family stand up during that sustaining vote, even though they're, you know, reading 1 name, but has a symbol of we're sustaining this family because they're about to go through some really difficult things. And and, of course, blessings common and we... The whole family sees miracles, but sometimes, And as I I interviewed my wife once about her experience. And it was like, it
wasn't that we had an argument. The argument was the fact that I was the bishop and just that the the the tension it created at times, and we had a step back and reassess and, you know, maybe adjust things as how we were doing it, You know, So, it's it's fascinating. It's a little bit long, but let me share a really place po story on that. K? So this is Is from 1 of the bishop says, I'm a pretty hard driving person. That's my
personality. I tend to throw myself into things and especially calling. Because it's the lord's work and there's nothing more important. So that's the way I approach my calling as bishop, and I really really went too hard at it right at the start. I was having Bishop Meeting starting at 05:30AM. Oh boy. And it was just absolutely, you know, crazy. September tenth, I'm set apart. 3 and a half months whiz buy, and suddenly, it's Christmas
eve. Okay? The kids are finally in bed, and I'm having a romantic moment with my wife by the buyer. I decide to ask her. How are things going? And she says with a little bit of energy and a voice. Oh, you're asking me how things are going? And she responded... Wow. You haven't asked me anything like that. Well, ever since you were called, Do you really want to know? She said, yeah by that time, I was starting to get today. I said, yeah. I really want to know. She said awful.
We never see you. We never hear you. You're not even around. You're not even really a part of the family, and we had a pretty difficult conversation difficult for me. It was hard to hear, but I realized that I needed to do some repent. Mh. Actually because I was not using my counselors enough. I was not del enough. I was not remembering the most important thing that my steak president said to me when we called me
is bishop. He'd said, Being a bishop is a heavy responsibility will take many hours every week, but don't neglect your family, and I was. So I happen to be conducting in January at our Sunday meeting. It was my month. I stood up, and I said to the whole ward, I just had a personal priest interview with my wife. And I'm not doing the bishop thing right. I'm going to be del more and I'm not going to be quite as everywhere all the time as I had been. So please be patient with me.
Ward members as I try and figure this out because I need to be a good husband and good father too. That was a really important adjustment. Well, wow. I love that story. And again, so universal. I think that... Because the 10, we start these roles, We wanna do a really good job. And so we'd kinda lose ourselves in all the things we could do, and I often call it the calling monster of you can feed these calling as much time as you want, and they'll it'll eat it
all. You wanna do it 40 hours a week, 80 hours a week, Like, you can find enough stuff to do. In those things so it really takes some discipline to step back and say, no. I'm not doing that, or I'm gonna delegate that, or... And I love just that, even had time standing in front of the ward and saying, Alright. I need to readjust some expectations here. Right? Yeah. I love that. Love that story. Yeah. So my father was a branch president
in Again when I was growing up. And actually, 1 of the joys of this project was interviewing my dad about... He was branch president then he later served a bishop, and then also interviewing my father. About his services as a bishop. Mh. But my dad, his first time when he was branch president. He was very busy. He was building a new hospital in town. He was in charge of, and he said, it really was a blessing to me because I learned to really manage my time well.
Said I figured it out, I've gotta serve the ward or the branch. So I've gotta be really efficient when I'm at work. And so he said I actually got much more efficient and effective at work. Because I knew I only had that... Those men of hours. So as branch president, he probably spent, you know, 20, 25 hours a week. Meanwhile when he was called bishop decades later, he was retired. Now, he was probably a
60 to 70 hour week bishop. Yeah. And as you said, if for take all the time you're willing to give it. Right. Yeah. And and then that again, though Wire. There's such differences And, yeah. I I... You have those retired bishop, and they just love being involved or going in the middle of the week and helping someone with, you know, at the bishop store or whatever it is, but then it's the... Those moments where you have sit back and.
Oh, I'm not in that phase of life, united even make some adjustments. So really good stuff. Let me let me share something with you. I I love this. I have a high school friend who's a presbyterian, actually I've imagine. He's a protestant minister. Okay. And he was kind enough to read the book and and give me feedback, which was kinda fun to get from his his own perspective.
And in the process of that, he sent me a little little did that that I think is wonderful, and it kinda talks about this balancing and and, you know, how do you kinda do all the things you need to do as a bishop and talks about... It's called the perfect pastor. Wow. Okay. The perfect pastor preach reaches exactly 10 minutes. He condemns sin round, but never hurts anyone's feelings. He works from 8AM until midnight and is also the church jan, yet is an exe husband and father.
The perfect pastor makes 40 dollars a week. Where's good clothes drives a good car, buys good books and donate 30 dollars a week to the church. He is 29 years old and has 40 years of experience. Above all he is handsome. The perfect pastor has a burning desire to work with teenagers. And he spends most of his time with the senior citizens. He smiles all the time with a straight face because he has a sense of humor that keeps him seriously dedicated to the church.
He makes 15 home visits a day and is always in his office to be handy when needed. The perfect pastor always has time for church council and all of its committees. He never misses the meeting of any church organization and is always busy evan the un church. It said in the booker... It's not... Okay. But I love that. Because, yeah. That's that sometimes that's the expectation set for ourselves, then we wonder how's everybody else doing in this.
Well nobody's doing that. Nobody's the perfect faster, the perfect bishop. Right? Yeah. And there are few quotes in the book from bishop who said, you know, if you look at it, and and actually, some of these were quotes from general authorities. Yeah that from leadership meetings. They said, there's no way you can possibly do everything that the church handbook says you're supposed to do? It's just I mean, I think once somebody, you know, figured out how much time that
would take us. Like, there's not how much time in a week. Yeah. So you have to kind of be guided by the spirit and figure out well, where are the priorities, and sometimes the priority is gonna be with the person who needs to help. And other times the priority is gonna be with work. Yeah. And sometimes the priority is
is gonna be your family. Yeah. Well, we could easily do an hour on each 1 of these you know, I'm just reading through leading, unifying, following, del huge 1, managing, shepherd, strengthening member relationships, provide assistance, serving the youth, imperfect being, juggle, give, receiver, Any other point principle quote you wanna make sure we we share before we wrap up? Or... You know, I I love the... And this is not from a bishop. This is from President Hi, And I think it's true.
And I and I love it. We ended the book with it. This is again, Go Hi lee said, god bless the good bishop of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter saints. You may on occasion be inclined to complain about the burdens of your office, but you also know the joys of your service. Heavy as the load may be, you know this is the sweetest, the most rewarding, the most important thing you have ever done outside the walls of your own home.
And I don't know a bishop who wouldn't agree with that with that sentiment. It's an amazing experience. And it's also amazing because the board members support you so much. I mean, the ward members they pray for you. They're doing their best to support you. 1 other thing I probably did wanna mention that gets interesting. 1 of the quotes from 1 of our bishop he talked about that the fact that he
he'd been a counselor multiple times. And so he had a pretty good idea of what the bishop did and, you know, kind of his responsibilities And then he was called as a bishop, and he said, I figured out I had no clue. Mh. That I really had no clue. I thought I knew what the bishop did, but until you're in that position, you really don't have much of an idea. When he said I learned from that that, I needed to have been much more proactive
in how I could support him. He said I would say, oh, Bishop, what can I do for you and said the bishop would say, oh, you're doing a great job? Be fine. And he said looking back at it. He said it's kinda tough because I didn't know all that bishop was going through. But now that I have that knowledge, when I'm called the counselor again, I will be much more proactive in trying to take things
off of his plate. And in fact, 1 of the things that I think, 1 of the other nuggets of wisdom in here is that a bishop should try to delegate everything that other than the things that he can only do. Right? Because of A bishop only does the things that only he can do that's gonna keep him really busy. And so 1 has to look and say, well, what are all the things I'm doing, What are the things that somebody else? It doesn't require me to do? And those things should be delegated.
Yeah. Yeah. And we, you know, we haven't even talked about, you know, working with the youth. Right. Which, of course, is Bishop most important responsibility. Yeah. And has been given a great deal of, emphasis in the last few years. And so once again, being able to offload and delegate some of those other administrative or even administering to other leaders is becoming increasingly important so that they can put their time into working with the youth.
I think another message that I would share from what we've learned from this book is that those who've been called to, in a in a sense step up the last few years, Elders Born Presidents, release society presidents, who've been really asked to take on a lot more of the responsibility for the leadership of the award. Think about, will you have the same experience when you're released as these bishop have? And I think it's actually
something that They should have. Yeah. Because if you've thrown yourself into the calling in the same way that a bishop does, now it's never gonna be exactly the same because you're not a person helping them, you know, rep repent from their sins, at least not in the same way bishop does. Right. Saudi presence in elders corn presence, and others can certainly help in that process and in in very important ways. But you can have the same sort of sacred experiences
that bishop have in those other calling. If you're not having those, maybe the messages, gosh, maybe we ought do be doing some more things, proactively to have those kinds of experiences that you are gonna end up missing. Now having said that, I've been in others quorum presence since the change, and the membership of the church is still trying to figure it out. That's right. Yep. So Yep. It's difficult...
It it it it's a difficult thing, but certainly 1 that that I think all the leaders of of the church would be strive to have the kinds of experiences that bishop get to have. Again, they won't be able to do it the same way, and they won't have the exact mantle. But that mantle, there's a different man that comes with each calling. And so I think 1 of the messages is You know, as you really mag your calling, you'll have those same kind of miracles holes
and blessings in your life. Yeah. Really powerful. You and Ron have been working on this project for decades now. And when did Camden Robinson coming in the picture. No, I appreciate you asking me Camden. Camden is a wonderful young man. Actually just graduated with his Mba from the Harvard business school. And he was my student By. In fact he worked with me all 4 years, He was at By. He was really instrumental in in helping me with the business Ethics Field guide. And is
he was going into his, senior year. I thought, oh my gosh. I only have 1 more year to take advantage of having Camden is my research assistant what am I gonna put him on? And I thought, you know what? If I put him on the bishop project, it's gonna get done. And sure enough. So I put him on that project, and he was absolutely instrumental in us completing the work. He's incredibly efficient and effective and just incredibly bright. And so he really
helped us put it all together. And he also provided perspective of a younger person. Yeah. So 1 of the things people say, well, gosh if you've been doing these interviews over the last, you know, 30 some years is like, having things changed. Well, clearly, some things have changed. But a lot about being Bishop hasn't changed at all. But it was also nice in addition to, you know, a couple of old guys to get a young person's
perspective on it. And since then, he's served in a bishop brick and ben a high counselor and is doing great things. But anyway, I'd I did want to mention Camden and what it... What an incredible young man he is and what an incredible contribution he made to this work. So the Bishop book experiences of bishop in the Church Jesus Christ Saturday saints in their own world words. Where would you send people they wanna learn more about it? Get a copy and all
that all that jazz Yeah. So it's available on Amazon. And if you wanna learn more about the book, the website is the bishop book dot com. Love it. And I should say, you know, the bishop book, it's great. Ron and I spent we had a lot of time to think about a title. Right? We worked on this thing for 34 years. And we came up with a whole bunch of different titles. President Hi gave a great talk called the shepherd of the flock, and we we kinda thought about using that.
Last year with my students at I, you know, I said, okay. Give me ideas from the bishop for the book. And in the end, we just struggled so much, you know, and he said, you know what we've been calling you last 34 years. We've been calling it the bishop book. Yeah. Let's call it the bishop book. Yeah. Because that's what it is. Right? Just call what it is.
Really good stuff. Well, last question I have for you is just what what final encouragement would you give to a room full bishop So maybe newly called Bishop, maybe newly released ships. So what, well, final messages and would you leave with him? I love that question, Kurt. I give the advice to bishop to savor the experience. 5 years seemed like a long time as you know, it goes by very quickly.
Yeah. And it can be difficult and, you, you know, all kinds of challenges, but at the end of the day, it's such an amazing experience. So I say, while you're going through it, and I I particularly tell Bishop this when they've been serving for about 4 years. Mh. I said, you know, you might serve for 6 or 7, but most are gonna serve for 5. Said, particularly during this last year, you know, just savor, just like, you know, a good
meal. Right? I'm a good steak. You know, just you leave it in there a little bit longer, you know, just as Chew just savor the experience, and I think that even applies to even the beginning, savor the experience. It's such a special experience that not that many people get to have. In fact, it's unique in all the world.
That you get to have a career that you choose and also get to have this experience of essentially being a priest or a pastor There are very few people in the world who get to do both of those things. Mh. And there's an intimacy to this calling this unlike any intimacy in the world. Obviously, you've got a a level of intimacy with your wife that is unique and special, but there's also another intimacy that a bishop has, that is unique and special. And that is that you literally are working
with people enter it. In some cases an intermediary with God that is an experience that is truly miraculous. And those who are blessed to be able to have that experience. Ought to be incredibly grateful for that experience. So I would say tip bishop, you know, be grateful for this experience you're having, and savor. Hey, you made it to the end of the episode. Wasn't that so good. You know, I tend to pinch myself that this is what I get to do. I get a
sit down with some remarkable people. Across the world, experts, everyday leaders, Phds, therapists, whatever it be and have such an impactful conversation. I hope you'll share it, drop it into text message and email and share it to someone who may be came to mind during this episode. And if you go to the show notes and scroll to the bottom, there's actually a list of some of our most popular episodes.
So don't stop with this episode. I mean, you're not done with the dishes ramon the lawn working out, so you might as well keep it going At the bottom of those show notes and make sure you listen to each 1, maybe a couple times on a few of them. And remember, to get on the email newsletter list, simply go to leading saints dot org slash 14.
A It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought fourth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the declaration was made cons... Concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth. We were immediately put in a position of loneliness. A loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away. And to which we must face up with bold and courage and ability,